test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 18, 19:07, Allison J Parent wrote: > Subject: Re: OT -mostly - > <Compare this to modern OSs - windows, macos, etc where the development pack > <costs hundreds or thousands of dollars extra. > > VMS, all of the Unix clones, All cost extra, unless you mean gcc etc. None of HP/UX, Solaris, IRIX, AIX, come with more than the minimum required to relink the kernel, although you can buy the development tools separately. > RT-11 to name a few still provide full > development environment. That's certainly valid. The exception that proves the rule, perhaps :-) > I'm sure some(I would) here would add CPM > OS9 and even PC based DOS(MS, DRdos, CCPM...). the amount of freeware > or lowcost shareware for DOS/winders is quite impressive and plentyful. > > Of all the software out there CPM-80, APPLE and PCdos has the largest > archives, but the PDP-8, -11, VAX archives are getting big. But does freeware/shareware count? The original point was that the manufacturers don't provide their tools for free as part of the OS; of course you can add on any amount of 3rd party free software to virtually any OS. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

Compilers not coming with the OS anymore

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Huw Davies <H.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au> wrote: > At 16:13 18/06/99 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ISTR that the error log analyzer is written in PL/1, for example. > > CUSP is something like Commonly Used System (Software?) Program. That's it. > I'm not sure about the error log analyzer but certainly part (if not all) > of the monitor program is written in PL/1. (Monitor monitors the > performance of a VMS system and is not to be confused with The Monitor > which was the system for a DECsystem-10). Right! The system monitor was written in PL/1. The error log analyzer was written in COBOL. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

Fwd: Re: Compilers not coming with the OS anymore

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Huw Davies <H.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au> wrote: > I've heard that Bliss was not liked within Digital. As they used to say: "Bliss is Ignorance" -ethan === _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

Top 150 Collectible Microcomputers

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<On a side note, perhaps it would be better to have the most <collectable by category (e.g. 8 bit home, S-100, early GUI, etc). <That way more items can be listed but still be managed. Plus then <everyone can argue about how to classify things (does the <CompuPro go under CPM or S100 or both). Well, the people that classify things have a field day. The reality with computers is that they are metamorphic making that a challenge. For it to work the list must have a coherent set of rules. For example: S100 is a buss but that does not dictate what cpus are used and the list of CPUs (and OSs) are quite large(nearly every cpu used!). Listing by OS narrows that to groups or specific cpus. the list in my mind has these criteria. Order by introduction, by OS or CPU, by bus used, by attributes (first, portable, GUI...). I'm sure there are more ways but it would likely end up looking like a matrix. Allison

26 years, 6 months

Compilers not coming with the OS anymore

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I've heard that Bliss was not liked within Digital. I'm assuming some <aspects of NIH along with support issues. Perhaps someone who was there <might like to comment? Correct BLISS was not a favorite of the systems people and there was an effort in the 80s to move a lot of bliss (vax) code to C. It was partly the portability plus interfacing issues between languages and that C or Pascal was seen as becomming the more standard languages. I think also it was considered by more than me to be an esoteric skill that showed little value outside of DEC or DEC environments. Allison

26 years, 6 months

OT -mostly -

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Ah, but does this not actually fall under the same catagory as the above >> comments about UNIX? Or does RT-11 ship with more than Macro-11? You >>kind >> of have to have Macro-11 in order to run a SYSGEN I believe. >True, but a fair amount of development work is/was done with MACRO-11. That's an understatement. Compared with a PC-clone or Unixy assemblers, the expansive abilities of a true Macro assembler are astounding. Think of Macro-11 not so much as an assembler, but as a completely extensible language. Many other architectures have similarly powerful macro assemblers. Unfortunately, folks these days think of "macros" in relation to programming as being limited to what 'cpp' is capable of. Tim.

26 years, 6 months

Cromemco System 1 in Ghostbusters

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I wonder if anybody's ever put together an "old micros spotted in movies" >list. It doesn't necessarily meet everybody's definition of a "micro", but at the start of _Three Days of the Condor_ there's some nice shots of a PDP-8 with DECTape drives. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

OT: Included Development Tools

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 18, 22:32, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Subject: OT: Included Development Tools > Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > >For the unices mentioned earlier, I believe that cc, an assembler, etc > >were _not_ included with the OS. So there is no way of writing programs > >with the software as supplied. > > Dunno about the others that were mentioned, but Solaris (in every form that > I dealt with, anyway...) did include cc, plus perl, tcl/tk, I think Python, > and maybe some others. > > Now... the libraries that were included with Solaris were lame at best, and > it is tough to get 3rd party programs to compile with the included cc (a > quick upgrade to gcc fixes that...) but it was included, and was enough to > write C & perl programs out of the box. IIRC that isn't ANSI C, and certainly isn't intended for development work. Sun sell a development compiler separately, and it's *not* cheap. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

OT -mostly -

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 19, 2:53, Tony Duell wrote: > It doesn't matter (IMHO) _why_ Macro-11 was included, the fact is that it > was. And it's possible to write programs in Macro-11, so it counts as a > programming tool. > > For the unices mentioned earlier, I believe that cc, an assembler, etc > were _not_ included with the OS. So there is no way of writing programs > with the software as supplied. Usually there would be only part of the compiler, and a linker, but no assembler; and in some cases the linker would be a cut-down version. For example, in IRIX, you only need to able to link COFF executables to rebuild the kernel, whereas the normal linker/loader handles ELF executables. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

OT -mostly -

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 18, 16:39, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Pete wrote > > On Jun 18, 19:07, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > VMS, all of the Unix clones, > > > > All cost extra, unless you mean gcc etc. None of HP/UX, Solaris, IRIX, > > AIX, come with more than the minimum required to relink the kernel, > > although you can buy the development tools separately. > > > > > RT-11 to name a few still provide full > > > development environment. > > > > That's certainly valid. The exception that proves the rule, perhaps :-) > > Ah, but does this not actually fall under the same catagory as the above > comments about UNIX? Or does RT-11 ship with more than Macro-11? You kind > of have to have Macro-11 in order to run a SYSGEN I believe. True, but a fair amount of development work is/was done with MACRO-11. However, very few people would even contemplate writing assembler for a UNIX system (except for very small very low level things). 18 months ago I had to write some applications stuff in MIPS assembler for IRIX, and was disgusted to find that SGI's C compiler could do just as good a job as I could, most of the time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 6 months

TRS-80 Model III for sale

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Is there any interest here for a TRS-80 Model III located in the Dallas area? Please let me know and I'll pass you on to the seller. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99]

26 years, 6 months

Top 150 Collectible Microcomputers

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

CoCo... 6809... OS-9... duh! I said it was a late night. I put the C65 on with the 64 not really because they're similar, but because the 65 is just a prototype. Victor 9000, good addition! Check out the WorkSlate at http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/ConvergentTechnologiesWorkSlate.htm. One cool thing about the WorkSlate, the tapes were stereo, and the data was only one one track - the other track held audio! So as you loaded the program, the audio would play back, telling you about the program and its functions. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 11:06 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Top 150 Collectible Microcomputers My comments ... ::* Apple Macintosh 128 :: ::1984. The Super Bowl. Right on. :-) ::* Commodore 64 / 65 :: ::Probably the biggest selling computer of all time, in terms of market share ::at the time These should really be separate. The 65 is much, much more interesting than the 64 (and, coming from a guy who logs in with his 128, that's really saying something :-) in terms of hardware, rarity and history. ::* Commodore C16 / Plus 4 :: ::I don't care much for these, but Commodore fanatics love 'em They're stupendous machines that never found a use. Commodore really shot themselves in the foot by making them 64-incompatible, but TED graphics are stellar. ::* Convergent Technologies WorkSlate :: ::A wacky early laptop that used a spreadsheet metaphor for _everything_. Whoa. Who can tell me about these? Spreadsheet metaphor? ::* Data General One :: ::DG really wanted into the burgeoning micro market, and tried their hand in ::desktops with the MicroNOVAs, but eventually found some small, brief success ::with this kinda-sorta-PC-compatible laptop. Weren't they more successful than this? My DG One runs Caldera OpenDOS now, btw. :-) ::* Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computers 1-3 :: ::If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Radio Shack goes color and 6502. I'm sure you mean 6809, right? :-P The CoCoers would kill you over this one. ::* Radio Shack TRS-80 Pocket Computers :: ::Some of the first calculator-style "computers" with BASIC Don't forget the Sharp and Casio systems these were unabashed clones of, though I think you mention the Sharps somewhere ... ::* Sharp Pocket Computers PC-1500 / PC-1500A :: ::Actually similar to some of the Radio Shack pocket computers which were ::built by Sharp, these later, larger units had a lot of software and ::peripherals. ... yep. The PC-4 is a Casio PB-410, btw. (Someone check this ... ?) ::* Sinclair ZX81 / Timex-Sinclair ZX1000 :: ::Sinclair merges with Timex and gets popular, but not more usable. The 2068 is even harder to find than the TS1000. (It's just TS1000, not TS ZX1000.) UK people, what was the 2068 a clone of? The Spec +3? ::* Sphere :: ::Not much is known about this rare semi graphical box. But sure sounds cool! When did it appear? What did it run? ::* Tomy Tutor :: ::Like the Mattel Aquarius, a quick failure in the edutainment market at the ::time of the video game crash. I love mine, though :-) Ones I'd add: * though not US: Apricot F1 for the colour graphics * Victor 9000/Sirius 1 Good job! -- -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 -- He is rising from affluence to poverty. -- Mark Twain ----------------------

26 years, 6 months

Top 150 Collectible Microcomputers

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

>-----Original Message----- >From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org] >Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 2:32 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: Top 150 Collectible Microcomputers > >> Lobo PMC-80 > >Do you possibly mean the MAX-80? I hadn't heard of a PMC-80. Come to think of it, there were 3 Lobo TRS-80 clones... the LNW-80 (Mod 1 clone), PMC-80 (Mod 1 clone with built-in tape drive and plastic case like a Sorcerer), and MAX-80 (Mod 3 clone) I'll probably list all 3 on one line. Thanks for the heads up Kai

26 years, 6 months

Rainbow Dvorak

by mtapley＠swri.edu

jpero wrote:> ... very sinister quiet here.... Quiet time, eh? I can help :-) by tossing out dumb questions. Here's the first: I've got a DEC Rainbow 100A. I love it, but I love the Dvorak keyboard layout more. There *is* a program on ftp.update.uu.se that purports to rearrange the keyboard in software (guess mode on: it intercepts the key input, remaps it using a table lookup, then passes it back to the remainder of the key input routine : guess mode off) I've been emailed that the program works .... but it does *not* work on my machine. It runs, terminates normally, and reports that it's already installed (as a TSR?) if re-run, but it has no effect on the keyboard. I have no Rainbow B to test it on, that could be the difference. I'm running MS-DOS 3.10B from Suitable Solutions. Could a DECspert with both a 100A and a 100B let me know if that's the problem? Better still, is it easy to disassemble the program, find out where/how the intercept I hypothesize is done, and re-target it for the 100A? Better still, does anyone know the whereabouts of Jim Beveridge (sic?) the author of the program? I know I've left out a slew of relevant details, like where the program acutally is on update, what the Dvorak keyboard layout is, etc etc. I'll be more than happy to supply them if anyone is interested in digging into this and when I get back near my machine with a bit of time to dig into it. I guess this is reasonably on-topic, but I'll be happy to take it off-list if folks are happy with quiet time. Thanks in advance! - Mark

26 years, 6 months

Compilers not coming with the OS anymore

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: After someone else asked: > > After playing with BeOS a while something occurred to me. Does anyone > > remember at what point operating systems stopped coming with development > > tools? > > I wasn't aware that they had :-). At least Linux, *BSD, VMS (I think), > etc come with compilers. VMS (V5.X and before, for sure) came with an assembler. Compilers were always extra. At least the engineers stuck it to the marketing types when the marketing types wanted to charge extra for *run-time* libraries for the various languages. The engineers wrote a system utility (CUSPS, as they were called by DEC - I forget exactly what it stands for) in each of the languages DEC shipped so that the runtimes would have to ship with the OS, not as a seperate product. ISTR that the error log analyzer is written in PL/1, for example. Solaris 2.x never came with a C compiler, but SunOS (BSD-based) did. AmigaDOS 1.0 came with ABasic, 1.1 and later came with AmigaBASIC (M$). The assembler and C compiler, etc., were always extra. After 1987, AmigaDOS came with AREXX. At least the Amiga, after 1.3, came with MicroEMACS as an alternative to the crappy standard editor. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

Info Needed: DQ606 Floppy Controller

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

26 years, 6 months

OT -mostly -

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

After playing with BeOS a while something occurred to me. Does anyone remember at what point operating systems stopped coming with development tools? I'm remembering the commodore 64 that came with Basic, and if you typed in the assembler from the manual, you could (at least in theory) write proffessional quality assembly language programs worthy of being sold to others. Compare this to modern OSs - windows, macos, etc where the development package costs hundreds or thousands of dollars extra. (small plug - BeOS comes with (theoretically) all the tools you need to do development on it.) -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! -----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 6 months

Top 150 Collectible Microcomputers

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<APC probably needs to be there, along with the Wave Mate Bullet. If you include the bullet then the AMPRO LBseries... it get big after a while. Allison

26 years, 6 months

RL02s available in Puget Sound, WA area

by djenner＠halcyon.com

Well, John Lawson didn't quite make off with all the RL02 drives around here. I've just uncovered 3 more drives available to anyone who can pick them up. One is known to work, the other two may be "for parts". If anyone is interested, let me know and I can get the particulars on them for you. You would have to be able to pick them up in the vicinity of Seattle, WA. Dave

26 years, 6 months

2 computers

by peterutz＠worldnet.att.net

A friend has a couple old computers gathering dust. Both work but need new homes. Any buyers? Timex Sinclair ZX-80 with manual. Radio Shack TRS80 Model 1 with monitor, dual disk drives, 48K memory, manuals, documents, software. And for video collectors: Sony Portapac model 3400, also called the Rover, the first popular EIAJ reel-to-reel portable VCR, with power supply and tape. peterutz(a)worldnet.att.net

26 years, 6 months

Any KSR-1 or 2s out there (OT-newer but rare)

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Is there anyone out there maintaining or know of a Kendall Square Research KSR 1 or 2 massively parallel supercomputer. Unfortunately a local scrapper got to the chassis but the cards & power supplies of one are available. Paxton Portland, OR

26 years, 6 months

OT -mostly -

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> VMS, all of the Unix clones, < <All cost extra, unless you mean gcc etc. None of HP/UX, Solaris, IRIX, <AIX, come with more than the minimum required to relink the kernel, <although you can buy the development tools separately. Unix clones also include Linux, Freebsd, Minix... <> I'm sure some(I would) here would add CPM <> OS9 and even PC based DOS(MS, DRdos, CCPM...). the amount of freeware <> or lowcost shareware for DOS/winders is quite impressive and plentyful. <> <> Of all the software out there CPM-80, APPLE and PCdos has the largest <> archives, but the PDP-8, -11, VAX archives are getting big. < <But does freeware/shareware count? The original point was that the <manufacturers don't provide their tools for free as part of the OS; of <course you can add on any amount of 3rd party free software to virtually <any OS. CPM however did come with a fairly complete devlopment environment for 8080 (or 8086 for cpm-86). However the shareware/freeware counting part I agree it's questionable but often there are better out there than from the OS oem. Allison

26 years, 6 months

OT -mostly -

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The Hobbyist version of OpenVMS comes with compilers, the Commercial versio <most definitly does not. Ah yes to a point, no compilers. There is MACRO and also BASIC, though a lot of work is easily done in DCL. Allison

26 years, 6 months

OT -mostly -

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>After playing with BeOS a while something occurred to me. Does anyone remember >at what point operating systems stopped coming with development tools? I'm >remembering the commodore 64 that came with Basic, and if you typed in the >assembler from the manual, you could (at least in theory) write proffessional >quality assembly language programs worthy of being sold to others. Well, CP/M came with a good assembler, MS-DOS didn't. That's where I draw the line in my head. Admittedly the version of ASM that came with CP/M wasn't awfully featurefull, but it did work. And you got documentation for writing programs with CP/M. And admittedly MS-DOS commonly was installed with some version of MS-BASIC, but I (personally) don't categorize that as a "real" development tool. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

Ancient Modems (was Re: Who says familiy activities are extinct? ^_^)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:53:11 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Who says familiy activities are extinct? ^_^ > > > > > Yeah, those are what they are, LDSsomethings, with 4-wire connections. > > Do those need AT commands to set up or similar, or do they just > > stay in data mode all the time? > > AT commands? Surely you jest. Have you looked inside (take off the feet > and slide the cover backwards). It's all simple analogue chips and > discretes inside. No microcontroller, no command language. > > Once you've connected them up, they behave like a long RS232 cable (data > leads only). Squirt data in one end, get it out the other. I missed the top of this, but I think this thread is about some older Modems, Motorola UDS's, yes? If I read what's gone on correctly, a four-wire device is for leased lines. You didn't even dial them. You just hooked them up and squirt away. Older two-wire modems, especially those that move sync data, are also lacking in dialing facilities. There was a seperate box that you routed the phone line through and sent commands via serial or parallel port to make the external box do the dialling. We used one when we were making sync comm equipment for VAXen more than ten years ago. I forget the first part of the designation, but it was a mumble-mumble 850 autodialler, the standard. Much later, ANSI invented an autodial protocol, V.25, IIRC. I have a Motorola 2400 sync/async V.25 _and_ Hayes modem from those days. It would work like a regular modem over a regular serial port, or if you used it in sync mode, you could send it V.25 autodial commands. One of my jobs back then was to retrofit the V.25 command set into our product. It was pretty cool when it all worked, but cool is a relative thing when you are working with stone knives and bearskins. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

Jump to page:

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

2001

2000

1999

1998

1997

test-drb