test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

by DAW＠yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu

This has been spoken for.. -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > ---------- > From: David Woyciesjes > > This reminds me... I have here an Applied Engineering AEHD 3.5" > External disk drive for Apple Computers. But the machine it's from is long > gone. > Who wants it? Say, $20 for me to pack it and ship it out. > > -- > --- David A Woyciesjes

23 years, 12 months

"Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > They are toys, since they didn't have a disk interface in > them. They, in > fact, if your description is correct, needed a toy interface > to talk to > another toy interface that talked to what was probably a > smarter computer that > had a disk interface in it. That pretty much describes commodore disk drives, yep. The point, though, is that they plug directly into an interface that's already on the machine, so we would get into the sticky discussion of how "directly" a drive must be handled. Require too much of the logic to be in the computer, and suddenly an external IDE disk wouldn't count. As an aside, I've heard of interesting things being done with the disk drive "computers," though I can't think of any off hand. They spoke a pretty simple serial protocol, too, such that you can basically plug them into other systems (Intel Linux machines, at least) and build simple applications to talk to them, and they handled all of the complexities of disk I/O, so that the CPU didn't need to -- so there are good points to them. That being said, if I understand your other post properly, once the drive is there, you would possibly not consider it a toy any more, whether the drive is external or not, and regardless of how it's driven. Or am I way off? Would you also have considered 9-track tape "mass storage" for the time? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 12 months

open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT

by DAW＠yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu

We're cleaning here, and got some stuff being tossed. Free, Come pick it up... 12 old modems - Gandalf LDS125 (?) about 12 (?) dozen tape reels. 12" diameter. They're in 4 15" monitor boxes... 2 HP LaserJet IID, with duplex 1 HP LaserJet IIID, w/ duplex some long comms(?) cables old Epson line printers old DeskJet printers CSU/DSU more to come... I can hold some of the smaller things, but there is limited space in my garage. E-mail me directly... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash

23 years, 12 months

R.I.P. for D.I.Y.

by uban＠ubanproductions.com

Peter, I've had this concern myself and have even made processor choices based on my fear of the hand prototyping of BGA parts. Would you please give us a synopsis of your experience and tips hand assembling BGA parts, including tools, temperatures, etc. ? --tnx --tom At 12:46 PM 4/25/02 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> Allison wrote: >> > >> >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) >> > >> > Impossible? How? >> > >> Open any GSM phone and look at the components.... >> There is NO WAY a hobbyist (not even Tony ( sorry chap !)) will be able to >> handle 200-300 pin BGA packages, with 0.8 or even 0.5mm pitch. > >Nonsense! I do 388 pin BGAs for protos all the time with nothing but a hot air >gun... > >BGAs are easier than fine pitch QFP to solder (though difficult to salvage if >done wrong...) > >Peter Wallace > > > >

23 years, 12 months

Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On April 22, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Most of the people I've met who use UNIX/LINUX in their home-computing > pursuits do it because they've nothing better to do. You may not fit that > model, but these guys figure out ways to make their computers more secure, > more complicated to use, and often have to type for several minutes to find > out whether a copy of a file on their local hard drive is available on that > other box down the wire. When my machines are all turned on, I can do that in > less than 15 seconds, and that long only because I can't remember the file > name. This is the one of your trolls that I think I'll ignore. > I just want (1) for my computers to act in concert to present me with a > convenient interface and (2) for them to work as expected. They seem to do > that most of the time. In recent years my cars have been more reliable than > my computers, but that wasn't the case some years back when I used Detroit > iron. When my computers become as reliable as my telephone, which may happen > not because the computers get better but ... then I'll be happy enough, I I suppose I'm more demanding than to accept my computers working as expected "most of the time". My computers are much MORE reliable than my telephone. But then, I don't use PeeCees, and I don't run Windows. I suppose it's just an issue of personal/professional standards and expectations. If I had a hammer that randomly jumped off of my workbench and flew through a window, I'd throw it in the trash and get a better hammer. I did exactly that with my computer a very long time ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den

23 years, 12 months

Unix versions

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 24, 21:05, Bill Pechter wrote: > Isn't it a bit much to call XXDP+ an OS. > DECX-11 is closer... XXDP's pretty dumb. I've always thought of XXDP as the OS that DECX-11 runs under. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 12 months

R.I.P. for D.I.Y.

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> From: Andy Holt <andyh(a)andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk> > > Nowadays You typically have to deal with distributors - little > > problem for the experienced, but an obstacle to newcomers > > what about JDR, JAMECO, BG and a long list of suppliers that take > small orders and credit cards? Great for processors, logic gates, linear chips, etc... DigiKey I do lots of business with (well, in the past). But try finding: cross-bar switch telco line interface bond-out version of a processor caller-id decoder and any other number of specialized chips... -dq

23 years, 12 months

.I.P. for D.I.Y.

by Gary.Messick＠itt.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwightk.elvey@amd.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:39 PM > To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: .I.P. for D.I.Y. > > > I get a kick out of the fact that he made the electrodes > in the shape of the old atom symbol they used to use in > the advertisements. Does anyone remember the name of the > little cartoon character that the GE advertisements had > for the atom? > Dwight > > Reddy Kilowatt! ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************

23 years, 12 months

Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by alan.pearson＠cramer.com

> From: Doc <doc(a)mdrconsult.com> > : > You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products intended > for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a computer", > since they have no internal mass storage. I guess he thinks Sun 3/50's are toys too. Sigh. Al.

23 years, 12 months

"Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> The floppy port one was called the Hard Disk 20 (Hard Drive 20?? damn, I > always screw that up). You are right on the SCSI one (20SC). And there is > a 2nd product that I am aware of Apple made for the floppy port. An > external 400k floppy drive. They may have made other external floppies > for the Mac that use the floppy port as well (800k maybe, but I don't > think they made a 1.44 external) > > There were of course other floppy drives made for floppy ports on the > IIgs, but I don't know if that is the same functionality, so I don't know > if those could have been used on the Mac. I used to own an external 400k drive, sold it about 10 years ago along with the old 400k internal drive they let me keep when I had my Fat mac upgraded to a 512Ke. Yes, Apple did make an external drive, ISTR is was called UniDrive but that was also what they called the single plastic 5.25inch drives for the Apple //e, according to Sellam... So I think Apple may have goofed and used the name twice. However, these were not Superdrives, IIRC, they didn't support 1.44MB, only 800MB. When I first saw it, the sounds it made were like a little hard drive, or so it seemd at the time. Third-parties also made external drives; I have one such beast, can't recall the maker, but I think it has both autoeject in addition to the quite visible and accessible front-panel eject button. -dq

23 years, 12 months

.I.P. for D.I.Y.

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Bryan Pope <bpope(a)wordstock.com> > >O. :( What about this other store I just found on the net called "Active >Electronics"? They have a stores located in Woburn and Cambridge? Yep another resource. >I am looking to get a soldering iron plus double-sided copper clab boards, >chemicals and dry-erase (I can't remember the exact name) to draw the >circuit. U-blew-it is good for that. The marker pen for hand drawing etch directly is the ever popular Sharpie (sanford) permanent marker. They are avalable in many widths and work just fine for resist. For the Iron look for a low cost temperature controlled iron, it's worth the price and usually they have fine tips or can have an assortment of tips. Allison

23 years, 12 months

.I.P. for D.I.Y.

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Andy Holt <andyh(a)andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk> >Nowadays > You typically have to deal with distributors - little problem for the >experienced, but an obstacle to newcomers what about JDR, JAMECO, BG and a long list of suppliers that take small orders and credit cards? > The edge speed of modern logic is so high that WW is unlikely to work WW works just fine. I've done it and actually WW if done right sometimes exceeds PCB! > In fact even PCBs now need designing using UHF techniques for the same >reason If your going that fast. Then again I did a UHF transverter using dead bug (NO PCB) just recently and it works very well. > SMT devices - and almost everything nowadays is only available as such - Yes, all the really neat new stuff is. However PICs, Amtel cpus, and good old 74xxxs stuff is widely abailable in dips. >are best handled with an expensive soldering station (and BGA devices need >even more expensive equiment). BGA is the extreme and likely more than a trivial project use. > Documentation - though nowadays typically easier to obtain - is often >oversimplified. Maybe, maybe not. For the stuff I do, and have done, it's pretty decent. I've been doing it for over 30 years so I do know the world has changed. Buying fast logic in 1970 to make a 50mhz freq counter was difficult, now it's a gimme. > Programming devices often needs (one or both of) expensive hardware or >extremely expensive software. If your programming GAL, FPGA, and the like, yes. Eproms no problem. Then again I've met some that wanted a high end FPGA to do what I can do in a handful of diodes and a few transistors or less. >I stand by the "almost impossible" statement above. You go in expecting defeat and you will be defeated. I just finished building a PLL system with 100hz resolution at 42mhz in a 1.5inch cube. No exotica, most parts bought from JDR catalog at reasonable prices. >The one main exception to this black picture is the single-chip flash >micro - such as the PIC family or the 8051 derivatives. But working with >these is more like computer programming than hardware design. Maybe but with the right mindset these are increadable resources. They allow one to use programmed micro where you needed a dozen chips or more before. Allison

23 years, 12 months

Open source -- non computer topics (Debian)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Underwood [mailto:nemesis-lists@icequake.net] > That's fine, and it's your choice, but please remember that > since you are > "staying away from the Debian community", you are using a > system that is the > product of others' hard work, and not contributing. If you Well, eventually I'll write my own OS, but until then... ;) > don't wish to > assist the project, IMO you shouldn't be shooting flames and > labels around > when you're dissatisfied with the outcome. Not trying to shoot flames anywhere. I'm just voicing my objection to the naming convention. If I thought it was a serious problem, I would, as you suggest, bring it up with the Debian group. > be better brought up to the Debian project itself. That way, > we can be > aware of views that diverge from the popular "Debian user"'s > view, in order > to attempt to provide a better system for all. I mean, yeah, Since it's a cosmetic thing, and has no impact on usability, I've largely tried to ignore it so far. The system is technically not harmed by it. > it's great > hearing praise and honors from people who love Debian, but we > can't improve > upon our system when all we hear is what we've done right, > and when the grumpy > ones :D post their opinions elsewhere so the larger Debian > developer base never > sees them. Rest assured that if I ever see Debian make a big technical mistake, I'll be the first to let them know. ;) The "name thing," while it annoys me, isn't really worth bothering Debian about. > Dig? This isn't a flame or a reprimand, it's simply a > suggestion. If you > disagree, that is fine. I'm just looking out for my operating system. I don't disagree, but I believe that, being a purely syntactic problem, the Debian people have better things to do with their time than debate, argue about, and perhaps eventually fix it. I'm sure they wasted enough time (several seconds at least ;) changing the name the first time, since, IIRC, the old Debian distributions were "just Linux." Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 12 months

Open source -- non computer topics (Debian)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> That's the pragma behind it, it's not giving into Stallman's demands and > such, it's just a choice behind the user and developer community that "This > is how we want to present our system as installed by default." They're not > twisting anyone's arm. Never had a problem with Debian, other than its name... it always either parses as "of or having to do with Debbie", or I hear "Denebian" as in "Denebian slime devil". Is it an acronym for something? -dq

23 years, 12 months

"Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > Yes, Apple did make an external drive, ISTR is was called UniDrive > but that was also what they called the single plastic 5.25inch drives > for the Apple //e, according to Sellam... So I think Apple may have > goofed and used the name twice. However, these were not Superdrives, > IIRC, they didn't support 1.44MB, only 800MB. Wow, and on a 3.5" disk too... :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 12 months

"Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > These days, my personal criteria is "no ethernet == toy" (for > stuff made > after 1990) The iOpener or Audrey as shipped is a toy; add > USB Ethernet > and it graduates to "potentially useful tool". So dual FDDI just isn't good enough for you? :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 12 months

R.I.P. for D.I.Y."

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> Nowadays You typically have to deal with distributors - little > problem for the experienced, but an obstacle to newcomers Usually, I could just call up the chipmaker/partmaker and ask for a few enegineering samples. When a 10MB Irwin QIC drive stopped working, I probed the adress line on the thing's Z-8 (yes, Z8) processor; there was no change, so I figured it was toast. Called up Zilog (this was 1987), asked for one, got two. Pull bad chip, insert new chip, got working Irwin drive. More recently, though, you have to develop a relationship with a rep from the local distributer (Hamilton-Avnet, Meunier, Graham, etc). WORST CASE was Mitel; I needed parts for a mini-PBX I designed and then never built. I had to buy this guy *two* martini lunches before i got my parts. Still it was a bargain... -dq

23 years, 12 months

R.I.P. for D.I.Y.

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> I get a kick out of the fact that he made the electrodes > in the shape of the old atom symbol they used to use in > the advertisements. Does anyone remember the name of the > little cartoon character that the GE advertisements had > for the atom? Hmmm... nope, though I do recall the REMC mascot, "Reddy Kilowatt", with a lightening bolt for a body... -dq

23 years, 12 months

Open source -- non computer topics (Debian)

by nemesis-lists＠icequake.net

> The entire world has voted. The name is "Linux", not "GNU/Linux". I'm not preaching Stallman. What I said is that the better part of the Debian community has chosen to give GNU credit in the system. You can disagree with it, and that is fine! The world+dog does not have to think Stallman is the icon of open source. Go ahead and edit your /etc/issue if it's that big a deal. At the risk of being a pedant, Debian is not a Linux operating system; it is designed to be a universal operating system, that can use any Unix-like kernel at its core. Debian is being bootstrapped on BSD and Hurd currently. The core of Debian is GNU system utilities and the Debian policy and package system, which is why the kernel name is prefixed by Debian and GNU. Redhat, Mandrake, etc don't bother, because they are Linux systems, and ONLY Linux systems. They will never be anything else, thus "Redhat Linux" and "Mandrake Linux" are fine titles; they indicate what the system aspires to be. That's the pragma behind it, it's not giving into Stallman's demands and such, it's just a choice behind the user and developer community that "This is how we want to present our system as installed by default." They're not twisting anyone's arm. -- Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253

23 years, 12 months

Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Christopher Smith <csmith(a)amdocs.com> >People buy peesees for one of four reasons: > >They favor them -- usually because they've never seen anything else. > >Their friend-who-knows-everything-about-computers likes them (yeah...) > >Everybody else is doing it > >They don't know that anything else exists Reason #5: It's a large market and compatability is handy for many reasons. You don't have to like it but if you have a PC even a slow one it can be very handy. It doesn't mean you must pitch over to microsoftism either as there are enough non- M$ tools that seem to work ok on the base winders. As to buying a PC... why? People are giving away P166s and thats enough to do most anything if a decent disk is installed. I figure if I spend more than the price of a new modest sized disk I've overpaid for my PCs. Of course I don't do the games or heavy graphics that want cpu up the wazzoo or other resources. Allison

23 years, 12 months

Open source -- non computer topics (Debian)

by nemesis-lists＠icequake.net

> > What you label "garbage" are the very attributes that many > > Debian members > > hold dear. > Probably exactly why I stay away from "the Debian community," > so to speak. That's fine, and it's your choice, but please remember that since you are "staying away from the Debian community", you are using a system that is the product of others' hard work, and not contributing. If you don't wish to assist the project, IMO you shouldn't be shooting flames and labels around when you're dissatisfied with the outcome. That is just my weak and unfounded opinion; but I just feel that instead of venting your disgust on other unrelated mailing lists, these issues would be better brought up to the Debian project itself. That way, we can be aware of views that diverge from the popular "Debian user"'s view, in order to attempt to provide a better system for all. I mean, yeah, it's great hearing praise and honors from people who love Debian, but we can't improve upon our system when all we hear is what we've done right, and when the grumpy ones :D post their opinions elsewhere so the larger Debian developer base never sees them. Dig? This isn't a flame or a reprimand, it's simply a suggestion. If you disagree, that is fine. I'm just looking out for my operating system. -- Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253

23 years, 12 months

Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by bob＠copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca

I didn't catch the posting that seems to have started all this, but ignorance never seems to stop anyone *else* from stating an opinion, so here's mine :-) A few years back I spent a little time working for a small company whose primary focus was Unix system software. They did some Windows work, and this was their eventual downfall because they were bought out by McAfee who didn't have a clue what to do with the Unix stuff and weren't interested in finding out. I was the last remaining employee of the original company. For most of the last year of its operation I did pretty much all the system administration, lightweight hardware maintenance, bug fixing, and many of the enhancements to the two Unix products that had been the mainstay of the company. I forget exactly how many machines we had and exactly what they ran, but it was something like: Hardware OS Notes ======== == ===== HP/Apollo 700 HP/UX 9.x HP/Apollo 700 HP/UX 10.01 + 10.10? dual boot DEC Alpha 2000 (?) OSF 1 Motorola Mxxx Motorola Unix v.X forgotten machine Motorola Myyy Motorola Unix v.Y & OS version names SUN Sparc 5 Solaris 2.5.1 SUN SLC Solaris 2.5.1 SUN 3/60 SunOS 4.1.1 IBM RS6000 AIX v.X & v.Y forgotten versions, dual boot Intel SCO Unix Intel Dynix Intel ?nix more memory loss I am missing a couple of machines and maybe one more OS. Before I started with the company I had never even heard of some of these variants. The point of all this is that the same code base built on ALL these things. Sure, we had a "portability" library of our own to make it easier, there was a fair amount of #ifdef stuff, and we had to tinker with GNU autoconf to get the builds smooth, but I could manage ALL of it. We used Emacs and gcc/gdb on all the machines, and a freeware distributed backup package (Amanda) to run complete backups of everything automatically (well, OK, I had to change the tapes manually). Of course, with the network applications that typically come with Unix (telnet, ftp, NFS, X Windows, etc.) I could sit at my own desk and get at every machine conveniently and run a parallel build on all the machines. That would have been completely impossible with the Microsoft (bundled) products available at that time. Now, I've watched people trying to do software development on Windows systems over the years, and I've done a little myself here and there. Every time there is a new service pack or OS release there are wailings and rendings of clothes on all sides. New licenses have to be bought for compilers, new versions of the network backup client have to be purchased, very often a whole new machine has to be bought, the sys admins have to do all sorts of black magic to get the new machines to "play nice" with the old ones on the network, and a whole new set of OS idiosyncracies has to be mastered. I have never observed anything similar in Unix development shops (well, OK, the more organised ones, anyway). Oh, and even *less* upheaval takes place in VMS shops BTW, but VMS has other problems. So: 1. it is perfectly possible to write highly portable software, and once the initial portability setup is done the rest is not particularly hard. 2. there is a great deal of very useful "free" software for Unix out there in net land, much of which you would have to pay big $ for on Windows 3. there is NOT very much "business" software (word processors, spreadsheets, contact management etc.) for Unix because the kind of people who write free software aren't generally very interested in "business" stuff, and the kind of people who write commercial software don't think there is much of a Unix market for it (since they priced themselves out of it a while back). 4. if I were developing software for "back end" applications (servers, networking, etc.) I would certainly do it on Unix in preference to Windows, and in this respect the market mostly agrees with me. By all means use Windows for your office work. That's about all it's good for, and on the whole it does it fairly well. Bob Bramwell Snail: 60 Baker Cr. NW | If I die in war you remember me; ProntoLogical Calgary, AB | If I live in peace you don't. +1 403/861-8827 T2L 1R4, Canada | - Spike Milligan (1919 - 2002)

23 years, 12 months

.I.P. for D.I.Y.

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Bryan Pope <bpope(a)wordstock.com> >And thusly Allison spake: >> >> From: Andy Holt <andyh(a)andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk> >> >I'll agree - but perhaps the main reason is that modern components are >> >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) >> >> Impossible? How? >> > >Well, we are kind of spoiled here with the "You-Do-It" Electronics store in >Needham. :) Feh! U-blew-it, home of the high priced spread. However they exist and are handy at times. The ham/electornics fleas are handy as mail/email order outfits. Allison

23 years, 12 months

ScanPlus Gray 300 scanner - what type of interface?

by Arno_1983＠gmx.de

Hi all, a former teacher of mine dug this feed-through scanner out of his storage for me. It has a slider pot for brightness and a button labeled "Eject", a power light (green) and an error light (yellow), builtin power supply with on/off switch and IEC inlet. Then there's a female Sub-D-25 connector...unlabeled. How does that connect to the computer? Did it need one of those proprietary interface cards? (We found one in another box, but we're not sure whether it is for this one.) Did already about an hour of googling, but no definitive results...Any hints appreciated. Greetings from Germany Arno Kletzander Arno_1983(a)gmx.de -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net

23 years, 12 months

Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mhstein＠canada.com

>From: Doc <doc(a)mdrconsult.com> > An easy way to spot a Microsoft/Intel patsy is his tendency to present > his own [generally incredibly narrow] viewpoint as immutable fact. > Doc -------- Well, the evidence of this latest waste of time & bandwidth seems to contradict that, since with one possible exception, all the people presenting those truly incredibly narrow viewpoints have been non-MS/Intel users. Despite being called morons, brain-damaged, biz'droid lusers, etc., with intelligence in the gutter, apparently those of us who do manage quite well to do our jobs & accomplish what we need/want using MS OSs & apps on PCs value our time more and respect diversity & other peoples' choices more than to get dragged into this childish & ridiculous name-calling 'discussion'. I for one am quite content to let other people use whatever hardware or software they like, are supplied with, can afford, are comfortable with, whatever, and when there are problems as there inevitably are with any hardware and software, I enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of getting past those problems, not to mention the income it provides. But it's reassuring that there are people out there who'd rather insult their clients/bosses or quit than work with MS/PC stuff; less competition and more opportunities for those of us who actually respect our clients and enjoy helping them and the organizations we work for accomplish their goals. And unlike some people on this list, <snip> Jeez, Dick. I can't believe you dragged me back into this. <snip> we don't all salivate whenever Richard rings his little bell. Hard to remember sometimes that the intelligent majority is silent at times like this (except for me, of course :-) mike

23 years, 12 months

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test-drb