At the risk of being overly buzzword compliant, how about something along the lines of
"computing that differs materially from the current computing paradigm"? That would allow
limited discussion of interesting O/S and other software on currentish computers or
"heavily microcoded" implementations of classic machines, whilst excluding Windows 95 and
modernish hardware discussions.
>
>Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives
> From: "Dan Williams" <williams.dan at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:36:48 +0100
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
><snip>
>> If the 3100 is running VMS it can netboot VMS to a target VAX system so
>> long as there is a network between them. Though Netbsd may be easier for
>> those more familiar with Linux/unix.
>>
>>
>>
>> Allison
>>
>>
>>
>I think VMS must be the fastest and easiest setup for netbooting out
>of any OS I have used. Just one program type in a few details and it
>works. I have spent far to long trying to figure out what went wrong
>with netbooting to find I had an extra ";" or similar somewhere it
>shouldn't be, or didn't have one where it should.
I do too but if your not somewhat familiar with VMS it could be a
minefield. I pointed out the unix path for those that know it and
are most comfortable there.
Myself I just cluster boot systems that have empty disks or I want
to see what's on the disks.
The best way to get at the VAX disks is a working VAX. Archiving
them is a different propisition. Myself I have a boatload of RZ56s
(5.25" full height 680mb SCSI disks) and a few BA42 boxes to put
them in and a CMD SCSI controller for Qbus. This allows me to
image from any Qbus VAX I can fit the controller into or use one
of my pack of uVAX3100s SCSI interface. With eight RX56s on hand
and a few 1gb Baracudas I have a solid image and backup archive.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives
> From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com>
> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:55:48 -0700 (PDT)
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>> The RD53 is from uVAX II with a RQDX3.
>
>And this makes me think of something I don't think anyone has directly
>warned you of. Sort out everything with another drive than this. *IF* it
>will spin up, you want to get the data off of it without powering it back
>down. RD53's were unreliable 10-20 years ago, they can't have gotten any
>better :^(
>
>> The RD23 is from a uVAX I with a RQDX3.
If the head stick problem hasn't happend it will be fine.
>RD23? Assuming this isn't a typo, what on earth is an RD23?
>
>> (BTW, it also have a VAXstation 3100-m38 with RZ(something) SCSI drive
>> which I successfully imaged on a PC with SCSI capabilities)
>
SCSI is a whole differnt matter. SCSI has better standardization as
the media itself is more isolated.
><snip>
>
>> Yep, I think Pat's idea to do a diskless/network boot of NetBSD and then
>> image off from there is the way to go.
>
>Actually you might have another solution here. Is the VAXstation 3100-m38
>running VMS? If it is, has TCP/IP, and the SCSI HD has enough free space,
>simply net-boot VMS. Though if you're more comfortable with Pat's idea,
>it's probably the better solution.
For certain if it has VMS it has DECnet, however LINUX and even PCs can
support DECNET directly.
If the 3100 is running VMS it can netboot VMS to a target VAX system so
long as there is a network between them. Though Netbsd may be easier for
those more familiar with Linux/unix.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: "File types"
> From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:52:56 +1200
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>On 8/29/06, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> Unix was the first system that I'd ever seen where the file name implied a
>> type.
For me it was OS8 and later tops 10. By RT11 and CP/M the idea that
COM, .TXT, .DOC and .ASM were fully embedded.
And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and
wonder why you got a disk specification error?
Allison
--- Don <THX1138 at dakotacom.net> wrote:
> I.e. type needs to be finer grained than silly N
> *character*
> file "extensions"... *everyone* wants to be "DOC",
> or some
> other pronounceable extension. So, the file types
> lose their
> value (e.g., on my W2K box, Matlab and Mathematica
> both want
> to use .m -- so, .m files are meaningless to me
> since I can't
> recall FROM THE NAME OF THE FILE which application
> needs to
> be opened to process the file). MacOS *seems* to
> have had the
> right idea (though I have never used it "seriously
"
> to know
> for sure).
>
*raises hand*
Why not use a combination of an extension
name and internal references within the files
data, like the IFF format on the Amiga.
eg. Filename: mypic.IFF
and then within the first 16 bytes are
contained the ASCII "ILBM" and something else
(I forget... that's what not having a properly
working Amiga does to me!). Not sure why
they are spread apart and not the first few
bytes.
As far as I am concerned it is down to the
software to *detect* whether or not the
file is the right type, regardless of whether
the extension name is correct (eg. IFF stands
for Interchange File Format, or something
similar, and can have sounds stored in an
.IFF file instead of image data).
Personally I developed a (lame) .ABI image
format for the Amiga last year, and apart
>from the .ABI extension it has a couple
of other ways to detect it is the correct file
type - eg. my initials ("ADB") are at the end
of the file aswell as something else hidden
in the data (that was also included just so
I could verify it's *my* file type - I don't
want to invent something and have it stolen
>from me like so many great idea's (not
referring to mine now) in the past.
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
>
>Subject: Re: "File types"
> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:10:01 +0100 (BST)
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>> And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and
>> wonder why you got a disk specification error?
>
>Doesn't it try to write the object to S:, and the listing to M: ? Neither
>of which probably exist.
CP/M only has 16 disks posible (A..P).
>I remember the first time I used ZASM (a CP/M Z80 assembler) on an
>RML380Z. I typed 'ZASM FOO,ZSM and got a 'BDOS ERROR ON Z: SELECT' for my
>efforts....
Exactly!
>>To return to the original question, how far back do you have to go for
>unix's cc(1) to require .c on C source files, .o on object files (to be
>linked it), and so on?
Day two. On day one they wrote the compiler.
Allison
Do mechanical adding machines / calculators favour any particular kind of oil
(or grease) - or is it just a case of going for the lightest stuff possible?
I've got one here (adding machine - Bell Punch 509) that's in remarkably good
condition, but some of the mechanism needs a little 'help' for it to work. I
don't think it's binding due to any mechanical distortion (although it could
well be simple wear) - chances are that whatever lubricant was used has long
since given up though and sorting that out may well get it going again.
(for the curious, it's one of these:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~wolff/calculators/comptometers/Plus/Plus-1.htm
)
cheers
Jules
--
A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation.
Q. What's wrong with top posting ?
Forgive me if this has been done, but has anyone ever attempted to
create a registry of collectors on the CComp lists? A sort of virtual
directory of people on the list, their particular collection/hobby
interests, and perhaps contact information?
I'd be interesting to have such a tome for looking up quick access to
someone's specific knowledge if need be.
Nathan
--
--------------------
www.nathanpralle.com
--------------------
I am trying to determine the revision date codes of three HP 2100/21MX
diagnostic binary paper tapes in my possession. If anyone has the
"Diagnostic Configurator Reference Manual" (HP number 02100-90157) with a
print date later than August 1976 and earlier than January 1978, please
check Table A-1 in Appendix A for the revision codes for the following
diagnostic serial numbers:
DSN 111202 -- 7900/01 CARTRIDGE DISC -- 12960-16001
DSN 111303 -- 7905 CARTRIDGE DISC -- 12962-16001
DSN 146100 -- PAPER TAPE READER-PUNCH -- 12597-16001
It's also possible that the revision codes are listed in the corresponding
diagnostic operating manuals from that time period; these are the part
numbers:
12960-90003
12962-90001
12597-90031
(I have the Configurator manuals before and after the above dates, and the
DSNs bracket the ones I'm trying to identify.)
-- Dave
>
>Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives
> From: J Blaser <oldcpu at rogerwilco.org>
> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:11:25 -0600
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>Since I don't have (at least to my knowledge, yet) a functional VAX that
>might do the trick, I've removed each drive and attached it to a known
>working WD1002-WA2 controller [2] running on a 40Mhz 386 box, with
>Debian Linux. I'm just using the dd command to image the drive to a
>file, which I'll burn off to a CD when I've got everything imaged.
This will not work with DEC RDxx drives that have been formatted with
RQDX1/2 or RQDX3 controllers (Qbus 11 or MicroVAX).
>For kicks, if I boot linux and try my dd command, it croaks with this
>type of message:
>
>hda: read_intr: status=0x59 { DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest Error }
>hda: read_intr: error=0x10 { SectorIdNotFound }, CHS=0/0/1, sector 0
>
>I get the same type of results when I use dd's seek=n option to other
>blocks (sectors).
>
>Strangely, it almost appears that there is no low level format on the
>drives, doesn't it? I'm not smart enough to make that call though, and
>it seems strange that *all three* drives show this same result. Is it
>possible that the original owner somehow 'bulk erased' the drives? I
>did, at least, expect to find formating marks.
There may not be a recognizeable format which is the same as saying no
format using PC hardware. The drives may be fine and even bootable.
>Is there something I've missed, trying to image these 'DEC' drives? Did
>I miss some not-so-obvious jumper somewhere (though I diligently
>examined all documentation I could find)? Surely, they're just good-ol'
>MFM drives, right?
I've tried this it never worked using WD1003/WD1006.
>[1] I'm imaging three different drive types: RD23-A (71MB Micropolis
>1325), RD54 (159MB Maxtor XT-2190), and a Rodime RO-202 11MB drive from
>an AED WINC-08/05 RX01/RL02 emulation system.
71MB Micropolis is RD53 (all full height 5.25 are RD5x).
All half height are RD3x (st225 and St251)
The Rodime is nonDEC, it's likely from a third party.
>[2] Yes, I still have every computer I've ever owned, including two
>AT-class 286 machines made by Novell in the mid 80's.
>
>[3] Attempting to use the WD1002-WA2 in two different and more modern PC
>motherboards with onboard IDE interfaces proved a no go. Even after
>disabling the IDE controller (both primary and secondary) and the floppy
>controller in the BIOS there were some general flakiness, and I couldn't
>ever get the systems to recognize the MFM controller.
The problem is the older controllers will often not work as the newer
machines are too fast. You would have to slow down the ISA bus access
(older bioses have a tweek for that.). Also the 1002 may require a
driver that is incompatable with newer machines (IDE is closest to
the wd1003).
However, PC hard disk cards in general will be incompatable
with DEC controller formatted drives. Third party controllers like the
AED you may have a shot but, most of them used proprietory controllers.
Your attempt to image the content of the drives will be unsuccessful
using PC hardware.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives
> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:04:30 -0700
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>On 8/29/2006 at 1:47 PM Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
>>I suspect, but this is only a guess, that the issue is the way the DEC MFM
>>drives are formated. There are only two ways that I'm aware of to format
>>an MFM drive for use on a VAX. One is with a MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000
>>(formatter is built into the ROM's), the other is with the Field Service
>>Diagnostics (customer diagnostics can't format drives).
Many ways to format media on DEC systems. One is a suitable controller and
(rqdx2/3)on a PDP-11 qbus machine runnig XXDP diags.
The uVAX2000 has formatter in rom (RQDX3 compatable).
uVAX-II with diagnostic/formatter disks (Rx50) and the RQDXn of choice.
The later uVAX-III I think also had more diagnostic capability.
>Bingo. Even back in the old PC XT/AT MFM days, you couldn't always take an
>MFM drive formatted on one manufacturer's controller and use it as-is on
>another's.
Generally you had WDxxxx (compatable), WD RLL mostly compatable, and
"other" mostly all over the map but may be compatable with WD1003 style.
The S100 market and controllers were a similar problem. Since controllers
were TTL/CPU and PALS usually the formats were not alike but formatting
was usually not a problem.
SCSI is far easier to live with even older near sasi format (Amprolb).
Allison
--- der Mouse <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote:
> > For the record, I think Jay is doing a GREAT job
,
> and more people who
> > might be intimidated by this thread but who agre
e
> should speak up and
> > say so.
>
> Well, I don't feel intimidated by the thread. But
I
> do think Jay is
> doing a good job managing the list; I don't agree
> with everything he
> does/says, but I agree with most of it, and I thin
k
> he's probably doing
> a better job than I would in his place.
>
> If Jay says the list rules have changed, the list
> rules have changed,
> and it is not for us to gainsay him. classiccmp i
s
> a tremendous
> resource, and it seems to me more than a trifle
> arrogant for us to try
> to tell Jay how he has to run something he's
> *donating* to us.
>
> If you don't like it, go start your own list. Mak
e
> it good, and I
> might even subscribe. :-)
>
Right with you there der Mouse.
Jay, as a relatively new member I have found
this list useful and interesting, but if you do
decide to do a mandatory "time-out" (and I
hope you don't) I will understand, as I'm sure
will many of us.
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
--- "Nathan E. Pralle" <tarsi at binhost.com> wrote:
>> snip <<
> collect a DEC), but I
> could easily see a "pre-1984" list and a "post-198
4"
> list for those who
> would rather glean only that subject matter that
> pertains to their
> particular hobby interests.
>
> Nathan
>
I think that is a good idea, except that my
interest lies in the TRS-80 (1980 to 1988ish)
and the Amiga (erm.. mid 80's to present) so
there would have to be a list that still
combined everything as it is now (100 emails
a day isn't so bad.... unless you have a
family/partner to spend time with).
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
I recently added a RK8E/Rk05 and a RX8E/RK02 to my PDP-8/F and had ample
opportunity to use GTTY as my console/paper-tape interface.
As a result, I have upgraded GTTY as follows since it's last "official"
release:
Changes since release 0.92
1) Added ability to output a CR, wait for echo, etc. before
uploading PT image files. Aids in handling paper tape uploads to
OS/8 programs (such as PIP, BUILD. etc.).
2) Tabbing is now supported. Added option to specify tab size.
3) Proper handling of CR on "Enter" (bug fix).
4) Option to support CF/LF on "Enter" for DOS.
5) Minor bug fixes.
6) Documentation improvements
This latest version (0.96) of GTTY can be obtained from:
ftp://bickleywest.com/gtty96
or by anonymous FTP:
ftp bickleywest.com
Name: anonymous
Password: [email address]
cd /gtty96
Cheers,
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
Mountain View, CA
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
--------------Original message:
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:20:40 -0400
From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan at snarc.net>
Subject: RE: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)
For the record, I think Jay is doing a GREAT job, and more people who might
be intimidated by this thread but who agree should speak up and say so.
---------------Reply:
Not intimidated, just didn't want to add any more to the noise, but yes,
count me in as someone who thinks Jay is doing a great job!
Also kudos to the moderators who give their time to separate the wheat from
the chaff, which wouldn't be necessary if people would remember what the
real purpose of this list is, specifically mutual assistance and support of and
preservation of things related to "classic" computers.
And thanks to all the people wading through the cr*p who have the sense
to refrain from joining in.
A 10 year rule makes little sense to me; by that criterion every generic
beige box I pass sitting on the curb would qualify; on the other hand there
were DOS & Windows machines which I _would_ consider classics.
Why all this obsession about "rules"? Although there are doubtlessly some
subjective differences of opinion, I think everyone on this list has a pretty
good idea of what's classic and what's not; is common sense and a little
self-control really in such short supply here?
C'mon guys, let's be a little more "professional" and keep (make?) this
list refreshingly different from most of the other noisy lists out there.
And remember that some people have to pay connection charges, and that
every time someone gets annoyed enough to unsubscribe that's potentially
a resource lost to all of us.
mike
On 8/29/06, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
> My
> *KEY* complaint is people not changing the subject when the subject
> of the thread drifts. I know I've missed out on threads that I'm
> interested in due to this, and I've gone far farther than I have time
> in threads that I've become disinterested in due to this.
Amen and Amen. This causes me to lose a lot I am sure. And I can see
why it happ-ens. I could change this subject line to "Subject Line
Veracity" but then those following it would get lost. Its a "damned
if you do and damned if you dont" situation.
Jim Isbell
"If you are not living on the edge, well then,
you are just taking up too much space."
There's a mom+pop computer shop in Takoma Park, MD that likes to stick all
the oldest hardware they have in their front window. The only thing they
have I've never seen before is a hard disk assembly, in a clear plastic
case (maybe 30cm by 50cm), 3 platers, with a warranty sticker that says
IBM and 10SR. I'm curious what sort of systems these were used in.
Alexey
Hi,
I have an Intel 225MDS with the single 8inch floppy, expansion unit and
external dual 8inch floppies. I do not have the cable to attach the external
drives. Does anyone have the pinouts so I can make my own cable?
river
PS:
Oh, in regards to the comments about the delivery of cctalk information, I
think it would be better to have a web site. That way you can set up various
forums and threads to facilitate the searching of information and also
categorise the various messages and topics. This will allow you to ignore
those topics you are not interested in and focus only in your area of
interest/expertise. I find the scrolling through emails to be rather archaic
and doesn't make use of the modern technology/forums that are available to
us. We may like our old systems, but we aren't total luddites (are we?), and
there's no reason why we can't present our information in a more avdanced
form.
Furthermore going to a web-based system would attract more people. Sure,
there will be the "wookie" factor - but this is something that has always
been around, regardless of the medium. But, it will make our information
more accessible and appealing to others who have similar interests, or those
wishing to learn an embark on the hobby of classic computing.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/430 - Release Date: 28/08/2006
So I picked up an FP11-A this week. Looks like it might need some
over-the-top connectors to hook it up to my 11/34 (whenever I get that all
put together...).
Anyone have any idea what I need as far as connectors/cables/etc and what
exactly it hooks to in the CPU cardset/backplane?
Thanks,
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Considering the amount of bandwidth wasted here on other
OT topics (and often also on On-topic issues), it seems pretty
picayune to waste even more on whether a P70 is OT or not.
Much better to just let it go by than to add more dross to the pile,
in my opinion. Interesting that discussions about (e.g.) whether
hydrochloric acid is toxic don't trigger the same kind of
response...
Besides, if everyone felt that it was OT, they wouldn't reply;
apparently many people thought it wasn't.
However, it would be nice if words like f***ing were avoided.
Just my contribution to the pile...
mike
I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic.
I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75
MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7.
Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am thinking
about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought about GEOS,
but rejected it, too closed.
Specs seem too tight for Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over
DOS or CP/M.
Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be
capable of useful work?
IRIX seems to use some variant of the "magic number" database to assign file type
in Indigo Magic. The association between the file type and default application is, however,
extremely involved and obscure. I like the use of FTR, though.