test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

At the risk of being overly buzzword compliant, how about something along the lines of "computing that differs materially from the current computing paradigm"? That would allow limited discussion of interesting O/S and other software on currentish computers or "heavily microcoded" implementations of classic machines, whilst excluding Windows 95 and modernish hardware discussions.

19 years, 9 months

Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives > From: "Dan Williams" <williams.dan at gmail.com> > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:36:48 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > ><snip> >> If the 3100 is running VMS it can netboot VMS to a target VAX system so >> long as there is a network between them. Though Netbsd may be easier for >> those more familiar with Linux/unix. >> >> >> >> Allison >> >> >> >I think VMS must be the fastest and easiest setup for netbooting out >of any OS I have used. Just one program type in a few details and it >works. I have spent far to long trying to figure out what went wrong >with netbooting to find I had an extra ";" or similar somewhere it >shouldn't be, or didn't have one where it should. I do too but if your not somewhat familiar with VMS it could be a minefield. I pointed out the unix path for those that know it and are most comfortable there. Myself I just cluster boot systems that have empty disks or I want to see what's on the disks. The best way to get at the VAX disks is a working VAX. Archiving them is a different propisition. Myself I have a boatload of RZ56s (5.25" full height 680mb SCSI disks) and a few BA42 boxes to put them in and a CMD SCSI controller for Qbus. This allows me to image from any Qbus VAX I can fit the controller into or use one of my pack of uVAX3100s SCSI interface. With eight RX56s on hand and a few 1gb Baracudas I have a solid image and backup archive. Allison

19 years, 9 months

Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives > From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:55:48 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> The RD53 is from uVAX II with a RQDX3. > >And this makes me think of something I don't think anyone has directly >warned you of. Sort out everything with another drive than this. *IF* it >will spin up, you want to get the data off of it without powering it back >down. RD53's were unreliable 10-20 years ago, they can't have gotten any >better :^( > >> The RD23 is from a uVAX I with a RQDX3. If the head stick problem hasn't happend it will be fine. >RD23? Assuming this isn't a typo, what on earth is an RD23? > >> (BTW, it also have a VAXstation 3100-m38 with RZ(something) SCSI drive >> which I successfully imaged on a PC with SCSI capabilities) > SCSI is a whole differnt matter. SCSI has better standardization as the media itself is more isolated. ><snip> > >> Yep, I think Pat's idea to do a diskless/network boot of NetBSD and then >> image off from there is the way to go. > >Actually you might have another solution here. Is the VAXstation 3100-m38 >running VMS? If it is, has TCP/IP, and the SCSI HD has enough free space, >simply net-boot VMS. Though if you're more comfortable with Pat's idea, >it's probably the better solution. For certain if it has VMS it has DECnet, however LINUX and even PCs can support DECNET directly. If the 3100 is running VMS it can netboot VMS to a target VAX system so long as there is a network between them. Though Netbsd may be easier for those more familiar with Linux/unix. Allison

19 years, 9 months

"File types"

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: "File types" > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:52:56 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 8/29/06, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: >> Unix was the first system that I'd ever seen where the file name implied a >> type. For me it was OS8 and later tops 10. By RT11 and CP/M the idea that COM, .TXT, .DOC and .ASM were fully embedded. And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and wonder why you got a disk specification error? Allison

19 years, 9 months

"File types"

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Don <THX1138 at dakotacom.net> wrote: > I.e. type needs to be finer grained than silly N > *character* > file "extensions"... *everyone* wants to be "DOC", > or some > other pronounceable extension. So, the file types > lose their > value (e.g., on my W2K box, Matlab and Mathematica > both want > to use .m -- so, .m files are meaningless to me > since I can't > recall FROM THE NAME OF THE FILE which application > needs to > be opened to process the file). MacOS *seems* to > have had the > right idea (though I have never used it "seriously " > to know > for sure). > *raises hand* Why not use a combination of an extension name and internal references within the files data, like the IFF format on the Amiga. eg. Filename: mypic.IFF and then within the first 16 bytes are contained the ASCII "ILBM" and something else (I forget... that's what not having a properly working Amiga does to me!). Not sure why they are spread apart and not the first few bytes. As far as I am concerned it is down to the software to *detect* whether or not the file is the right type, regardless of whether the extension name is correct (eg. IFF stands for Interchange File Format, or something similar, and can have sounds stored in an .IFF file instead of image data). Personally I developed a (lame) .ABI image format for the Amiga last year, and apart >from the .ABI extension it has a couple of other ways to detect it is the correct file type - eg. my initials ("ADB") are at the end of the file aswell as something else hidden in the data (that was also included just so I could verify it's *my* file type - I don't want to invent something and have it stolen >from me like so many great idea's (not referring to mine now) in the past. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

19 years, 9 months

Philips PM3214 O-scope manual needed

by dm561＠torfree.net

Any chance someone out there has a manual for this 'scope? (Philips PM3214) Any info greatly appreciated. mike

19 years, 9 months

"File types"

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: "File types" > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:10:01 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and >> wonder why you got a disk specification error? > >Doesn't it try to write the object to S:, and the listing to M: ? Neither >of which probably exist. CP/M only has 16 disks posible (A..P). >I remember the first time I used ZASM (a CP/M Z80 assembler) on an >RML380Z. I typed 'ZASM FOO,ZSM and got a 'BDOS ERROR ON Z: SELECT' for my >efforts.... Exactly! >>To return to the original question, how far back do you have to go for >unix's cc(1) to require .c on C source files, .o on object files (to be >linked it), and so on? Day two. On day one they wrote the compiler. Allison

19 years, 9 months

Comptometer / adding machine oil?

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

Do mechanical adding machines / calculators favour any particular kind of oil (or grease) - or is it just a case of going for the lightest stuff possible? I've got one here (adding machine - Bell Punch 509) that's in remarkably good condition, but some of the mechanism needs a little 'help' for it to work. I don't think it's binding due to any mechanical distortion (although it could well be simple wear) - chances are that whatever lubricant was used has long since given up though and sorting that out may well get it going again. (for the curious, it's one of these: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~wolff/calculators/comptometers/Plus/Plus-1.htm ) cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ?

19 years, 9 months

Registry of Collectors

by tarsi＠binhost.com

Forgive me if this has been done, but has anyone ever attempted to create a registry of collectors on the CComp lists? A sort of virtual directory of people on the list, their particular collection/hobby interests, and perhaps contact information? I'd be interesting to have such a tome for looking up quick access to someone's specific knowledge if need be. Nathan -- -------------------- www.nathanpralle.com --------------------

19 years, 9 months

HP 21xx diagnostics

by jdbryan＠acm.org

I am trying to determine the revision date codes of three HP 2100/21MX diagnostic binary paper tapes in my possession. If anyone has the "Diagnostic Configurator Reference Manual" (HP number 02100-90157) with a print date later than August 1976 and earlier than January 1978, please check Table A-1 in Appendix A for the revision codes for the following diagnostic serial numbers: DSN 111202 -- 7900/01 CARTRIDGE DISC -- 12960-16001 DSN 111303 -- 7905 CARTRIDGE DISC -- 12962-16001 DSN 146100 -- PAPER TAPE READER-PUNCH -- 12597-16001 It's also possible that the revision codes are listed in the corresponding diagnostic operating manuals from that time period; these are the part numbers: 12960-90003 12962-90001 12597-90031 (I have the Configurator manuals before and after the above dates, and the DSNs bracket the ones I'm trying to identify.) -- Dave

19 years, 9 months

Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives > From: J Blaser <oldcpu at rogerwilco.org> > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:11:25 -0600 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Since I don't have (at least to my knowledge, yet) a functional VAX that >might do the trick, I've removed each drive and attached it to a known >working WD1002-WA2 controller [2] running on a 40Mhz 386 box, with >Debian Linux. I'm just using the dd command to image the drive to a >file, which I'll burn off to a CD when I've got everything imaged. This will not work with DEC RDxx drives that have been formatted with RQDX1/2 or RQDX3 controllers (Qbus 11 or MicroVAX). >For kicks, if I boot linux and try my dd command, it croaks with this >type of message: > >hda: read_intr: status=0x59 { DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest Error } >hda: read_intr: error=0x10 { SectorIdNotFound }, CHS=0/0/1, sector 0 > >I get the same type of results when I use dd's seek=n option to other >blocks (sectors). > >Strangely, it almost appears that there is no low level format on the >drives, doesn't it? I'm not smart enough to make that call though, and >it seems strange that *all three* drives show this same result. Is it >possible that the original owner somehow 'bulk erased' the drives? I >did, at least, expect to find formating marks. There may not be a recognizeable format which is the same as saying no format using PC hardware. The drives may be fine and even bootable. >Is there something I've missed, trying to image these 'DEC' drives? Did >I miss some not-so-obvious jumper somewhere (though I diligently >examined all documentation I could find)? Surely, they're just good-ol' >MFM drives, right? I've tried this it never worked using WD1003/WD1006. >[1] I'm imaging three different drive types: RD23-A (71MB Micropolis >1325), RD54 (159MB Maxtor XT-2190), and a Rodime RO-202 11MB drive from >an AED WINC-08/05 RX01/RL02 emulation system. 71MB Micropolis is RD53 (all full height 5.25 are RD5x). All half height are RD3x (st225 and St251) The Rodime is nonDEC, it's likely from a third party. >[2] Yes, I still have every computer I've ever owned, including two >AT-class 286 machines made by Novell in the mid 80's. > >[3] Attempting to use the WD1002-WA2 in two different and more modern PC >motherboards with onboard IDE interfaces proved a no go. Even after >disabling the IDE controller (both primary and secondary) and the floppy >controller in the BIOS there were some general flakiness, and I couldn't >ever get the systems to recognize the MFM controller. The problem is the older controllers will often not work as the newer machines are too fast. You would have to slow down the ISA bus access (older bioses have a tweek for that.). Also the 1002 may require a driver that is incompatable with newer machines (IDE is closest to the wd1003). However, PC hard disk cards in general will be incompatable with DEC controller formatted drives. Third party controllers like the AED you may have a shot but, most of them used proprietory controllers. Your attempt to image the content of the drives will be unsuccessful using PC hardware. Allison

19 years, 9 months

Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:04:30 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 8/29/2006 at 1:47 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>I suspect, but this is only a guess, that the issue is the way the DEC MFM >>drives are formated. There are only two ways that I'm aware of to format >>an MFM drive for use on a VAX. One is with a MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 >>(formatter is built into the ROM's), the other is with the Field Service >>Diagnostics (customer diagnostics can't format drives). Many ways to format media on DEC systems. One is a suitable controller and (rqdx2/3)on a PDP-11 qbus machine runnig XXDP diags. The uVAX2000 has formatter in rom (RQDX3 compatable). uVAX-II with diagnostic/formatter disks (Rx50) and the RQDXn of choice. The later uVAX-III I think also had more diagnostic capability. >Bingo. Even back in the old PC XT/AT MFM days, you couldn't always take an >MFM drive formatted on one manufacturer's controller and use it as-is on >another's. Generally you had WDxxxx (compatable), WD RLL mostly compatable, and "other" mostly all over the map but may be compatable with WD1003 style. The S100 market and controllers were a similar problem. Since controllers were TTL/CPU and PALS usually the formats were not alike but formatting was usually not a problem. SCSI is far easier to live with even older near sasi format (Amprolb). Allison

19 years, 9 months

Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- der Mouse <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote: > > For the record, I think Jay is doing a GREAT job , > and more people who > > might be intimidated by this thread but who agre e > should speak up and > > say so. > > Well, I don't feel intimidated by the thread. But I > do think Jay is > doing a good job managing the list; I don't agree > with everything he > does/says, but I agree with most of it, and I thin k > he's probably doing > a better job than I would in his place. > > If Jay says the list rules have changed, the list > rules have changed, > and it is not for us to gainsay him. classiccmp i s > a tremendous > resource, and it seems to me more than a trifle > arrogant for us to try > to tell Jay how he has to run something he's > *donating* to us. > > If you don't like it, go start your own list. Mak e > it good, and I > might even subscribe. :-) > Right with you there der Mouse. Jay, as a relatively new member I have found this list useful and interesting, but if you do decide to do a mandatory "time-out" (and I hope you don't) I will understand, as I'm sure will many of us. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

19 years, 9 months

Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- "Nathan E. Pralle" <tarsi at binhost.com> wrote: >> snip << > collect a DEC), but I > could easily see a "pre-1984" list and a "post-198 4" > list for those who > would rather glean only that subject matter that > pertains to their > particular hobby interests. > > Nathan > I think that is a good idea, except that my interest lies in the TRS-80 (1980 to 1988ish) and the Amiga (erm.. mid 80's to present) so there would have to be a list that still combined everything as it is now (100 emails a day isn't so bad.... unless you have a family/partner to spend time with). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

19 years, 9 months

New version of GTTY for PDP-8s, etc.

by lbickley＠bickleywest.com

I recently added a RK8E/Rk05 and a RX8E/RK02 to my PDP-8/F and had ample opportunity to use GTTY as my console/paper-tape interface. As a result, I have upgraded GTTY as follows since it's last "official" release: Changes since release 0.92 1) Added ability to output a CR, wait for echo, etc. before uploading PT image files. Aids in handling paper tape uploads to OS/8 programs (such as PIP, BUILD. etc.). 2) Tabbing is now supported. Added option to specify tab size. 3) Proper handling of CR on "Enter" (bug fix). 4) Option to support CF/LF on "Enter" for DOS. 5) Minor bug fixes. 6) Documentation improvements This latest version (0.96) of GTTY can be obtained from: ftp://bickleywest.com/gtty96 or by anonymous FTP: ftp bickleywest.com Name: anonymous Password: [email address] cd /gtty96 Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

19 years, 9 months

CCtalk "rules" etc.

by dm561＠torfree.net

And if you want to argue with Jay about what you think this list should be, why not take it off-list. m

19 years, 9 months

CCtalk "rules" etc.

by dm561＠torfree.net

--------------Original message: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:20:40 -0400 From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan at snarc.net> Subject: RE: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) For the record, I think Jay is doing a GREAT job, and more people who might be intimidated by this thread but who agree should speak up and say so. ---------------Reply: Not intimidated, just didn't want to add any more to the noise, but yes, count me in as someone who thinks Jay is doing a great job! Also kudos to the moderators who give their time to separate the wheat from the chaff, which wouldn't be necessary if people would remember what the real purpose of this list is, specifically mutual assistance and support of and preservation of things related to "classic" computers. And thanks to all the people wading through the cr*p who have the sense to refrain from joining in. A 10 year rule makes little sense to me; by that criterion every generic beige box I pass sitting on the curb would qualify; on the other hand there were DOS & Windows machines which I _would_ consider classics. Why all this obsession about "rules"? Although there are doubtlessly some subjective differences of opinion, I think everyone on this list has a pretty good idea of what's classic and what's not; is common sense and a little self-control really in such short supply here? C'mon guys, let's be a little more "professional" and keep (make?) this list refreshingly different from most of the other noisy lists out there. And remember that some people have to pay connection charges, and that every time someone gets annoyed enough to unsubscribe that's potentially a resource lost to all of us. mike

19 years, 9 months

10 Year Rule (was Re: Recommendations for operating system)

by jim.isbell＠gmail.com

On 8/29/06, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > My > *KEY* complaint is people not changing the subject when the subject > of the thread drifts. I know I've missed out on threads that I'm > interested in due to this, and I've gone far farther than I have time > in threads that I've become disinterested in due to this. Amen and Amen. This causes me to lose a lot I am sure. And I can see why it happ-ens. I could change this subject line to "Subject Line Veracity" but then those following it would get lost. Its a "damned if you do and damned if you dont" situation. Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space."

19 years, 9 months

IBM 10SR is from what system?

by alexeyt＠freeshell.org

There's a mom+pop computer shop in Takoma Park, MD that likes to stick all the oldest hardware they have in their front window. The only thing they have I've never seen before is a hard disk assembly, in a clear plastic case (maybe 30cm by 50cm), 3 platers, with a warranty sticker that says IBM and 10SR. I'm curious what sort of systems these were used in. Alexey

19 years, 9 months

MDS 225 External Disk Cable (and my view of cctalk delivery)

by river＠zip.com.au

Hi, I have an Intel 225MDS with the single 8inch floppy, expansion unit and external dual 8inch floppies. I do not have the cable to attach the external drives. Does anyone have the pinouts so I can make my own cable? river PS: Oh, in regards to the comments about the delivery of cctalk information, I think it would be better to have a web site. That way you can set up various forums and threads to facilitate the searching of information and also categorise the various messages and topics. This will allow you to ignore those topics you are not interested in and focus only in your area of interest/expertise. I find the scrolling through emails to be rather archaic and doesn't make use of the modern technology/forums that are available to us. We may like our old systems, but we aren't total luddites (are we?), and there's no reason why we can't present our information in a more avdanced form. Furthermore going to a web-based system would attract more people. Sure, there will be the "wookie" factor - but this is something that has always been around, regardless of the medium. But, it will make our information more accessible and appealing to others who have similar interests, or those wishing to learn an embark on the hobby of classic computing. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/430 - Release Date: 28/08/2006

19 years, 9 months

PC ist schlect

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. Raising the noise here another 6db is a wonderful idea.

19 years, 9 months

On Topic: PDP-11/34 FP11-A board question

by pat＠computer-refuge.org

So I picked up an FP11-A this week. Looks like it might need some over-the-top connectors to hook it up to my 11/34 (whenever I get that all put together...). Anyone have any idea what I need as far as connectors/cables/etc and what exactly it hooks to in the CPU cardset/backplane? Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org

19 years, 9 months

Recommendations for operating system

by dm561＠torfree.net

Considering the amount of bandwidth wasted here on other OT topics (and often also on On-topic issues), it seems pretty picayune to waste even more on whether a P70 is OT or not. Much better to just let it go by than to add more dross to the pile, in my opinion. Interesting that discussions about (e.g.) whether hydrochloric acid is toxic don't trigger the same kind of response... Besides, if everyone felt that it was OT, they wouldn't reply; apparently many people thought it wasn't. However, it would be nice if words like f***ing were avoided. Just my contribution to the pile... mike

19 years, 9 months

Recommendations for operating system

by bob099＠centurytel.net

I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am thinking about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought about GEOS, but rejected it, too closed. Specs seem too tight for Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over DOS or CP/M. Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be capable of useful work?

19 years, 9 months

"File types"

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

IRIX seems to use some variant of the "magic number" database to assign file type in Indigo Magic. The association between the file type and default application is, however, extremely involved and obscure. I like the use of FTR, though.

19 years, 9 months

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