I was rather surprised to see Paxton on the news this last weekend.
He was in a spot on one of the local stations as a local historian
talking about a landslide that they're having problems with in his
part of the state.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
We will get several comments after this post...
I hope y'all will correct me.
The acoustic coupler on the old teletype was 1200 baud, 10 characters per
sec. to match the machine. It was FSK (Frequency Shift Keying) with two
tones 1200hz and 2400hz for 0 and one. Depending on the # of start, stop
bits in the serial stream and parity baud .NE. bytes/sec.
Phone lines have a 2500hz bandwidth, and today's modems use QAM (Quadrature
Amplitude Modulation). You can visualize this if you think of a signal as a
rotating vector on an xy grid - say a constant sine at constant amplitude
would represent a circle.
put 4 points uniformly on the circle and XY grid, and you have 4 QAM. 16
points (rectangular array, not on the unit circle), 16-QAM etc. Each point
represents 2 bits in 4-QAM (dibits), and 4 bits in 16-QAM. this is called
the signal constellation.
To further encode the signal and reduce errors, they use techniques called
viterbi and trellis encoding, these limit the accepted signal transition
>from one dibit, qbit to another.
In addition, modern modems train the channel. That's the white noise you
hear at the beginning of the dialup - both ends are doing equalization for
this connection. If errors occur, they fall back to lower data rates and
retrain.
Our 56K modems never get there here in the US, it is an FCC limit, and the
reasons I am not sure.
These basic principles above also apply to cell/radio transmission. There
are other goodies they can throw into the algorithms to reduce multipath
reflection (ghosts, as in TV) due to buildings objects, aircraft.
to conclude, Ill bet with a homemade cell phone acoustic coupler to -> RJ-45
jack interface you could get same performance as dialup, near 56K.
Needed:
Sponge/muffs to adapt the cell handset
electrostatic mic/speaker
some op amp stuff to get the signals leveled
resolve the dial-in and dial-out issues to fool the PC for dial tone and
auto answer (and interface to the cell keypad to answer and send)
Randy
>From: Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
>Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>To: talk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling
>Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
>
>my application anyway. What is the typical maximum
>speed of such a device, be it antiquated (I actually
>used to have one of the old Radio Shack units), or
>home-brewed.
> And lookee, here's what I had:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/RADIO-SHACK-ACOUSTIC-COUPLER-MODEM-
>TRS-80-AC-3_W0QQitemZ180098721480QQcategoryZ80229QQss
>PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
> In fact, that's an acoustic modem. What I'd like to
>implement is a "bridge" if you will between a modem
>and a cellular device that would allow connection to
>the internet. Ingenious, no? ;)
> Please, no one tell me about software and such that's
>presently available on the market. I'm aware of it,
>own 99% of it, and I'll say here and now it's flakey
>at best.
> The technology is antiquated enough, albeit not the
>application. O woe is me :(
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
>(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
>http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
_________________________________________________________________
5.5%* 30 year fixed mortgage rate. Good credit refinance. Up to 5 free
quotes - *Terms
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&searc…
Ahh, i won the book Z80 Workshop Manual from ebay the
other week. It mentions UART and PIO I/O chips on the
back cover. Mine is a reprint from 1986 and was
originally printed in 1983. - Andrew B (via mobile
phone)
--- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
<julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if the above is identical in spec
to the "official" Zilog PIO
> chip? The manual's dated November 1976 and stamped
as preliminary, which is
> a little unsettling :)
>
> I want to do some messing around with a Z80 CPU and
PIO, and having a physical
> paper reference to hand would sure be useful - I'm
just not sure if I'm going
> to shoot myself in the foot using this particular
one!
>
> I should go and google for Zilog / Z80 history I
suppose to see where Mostek
> fit into things - I've got a rather thick Mostek UK
Z80 programming manual
> (V2.0) too which would also make a useful reference,
assuming it's sound for
> all Z80 chips regardless of source...
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
Jules Richardson wrote:
For sure. But besides that, I see the web aspect purely as the most
convenient
method to allow users to do the searching. There's nothing to stop a search
result pointing to a FTP site, physical mailing address to which to send
your
pre-paid envelope in order to receive a CD of data back etc. :)
In other words, the actual data retrieval side doesn't *have* to be
web-based
at all (although realistically in most cases it probably would be). As you
say, recording the date in the metadata is the way to go anyway!
Billy:
This brings in several points that should be discussed re: what is an
archive.
If I send manuals to be scanned and put on a web site, is that breaking the
law? Here returns all the arguments about copyright law that have ensnarled
this list before. Generally the answer is yes. But as one member
responded, many copyright owners give a "wink and a nod" without officially
blessing the activity.
Of course many other IP owners have gone out of business and there may or
may not be a new rights owner.
Then comes the discussion of the manuals themselves. Many were distributed
in thousands of copies. They fall under fair use laws. But some stuff from
this list is detailed internal documents, such as software source listings,
software maintenance documents, etc. This is a much more iffy arena. There
might still be perceived value to this IP.
In a few cases, and Control Data is one of them, IP (especially software)
was sold and the new owner continues to protect his investment. If we want
to play and share old CDC software, we have to ask for permission. To be on
the good side of the new owner, we play by his rules.
And he makes no effort to preserve the older unsaleable software. So the
dilemma is how to save all this old software for the future? The method a
few of us use is to make copies, put them in private archives and
specifically prevent them from being accessed on the web. There may a very
small private distribution to individuals known to have an interest in the
software and willing to follow the owner's rules.
This solves the preservation problem - multiple copies are saved. And it
prevents the IP owner coming down like a ton of bricks.
So now we have a young Turk who is going to save everything and distribute
to whoever he wants. He ignores the narrow line that is being walked by the
current public archives and even proposes we engage in illegal activities to
help his acquisition yen.
There doesn't seem to be any understanding that not everyone wants wide
distribution of the software archives. Nor does he understand that what he
wants to do could set off the wrath of IP owners against the current public
archives. We survive at the whim of these IP owners. And many of them,
like the RIAA, are in a bad temper.
What a few of us are doing is ensuring multiple copies are archived without
shouting it to the world. It achieves the goals of a lasting archive. And
it keeps the Eye of Sauron away from us.
And if copies are not available to leeches, too bad.
Billy
I've purchased a memory board for PDP11.
It appears to be a National Semiconductor Q-BUS memory card.
It has 980110014-001 on it. I find (currently) no markings saying
like NS23D, NS23M, NS23S, NS23E, etc....
It is populated with MMC3764N-15 chips. There are 144 chips
total.
I'm still a newbie on 11s... but, if my internet searches are correct
those chips are 64k x 1 ram modules. So it takes 8 of them to make
64 kilobytes. Assuming there is parity, 144/9 make 16 sets of 9
chips each with 64 kilobytes + 1 parity bit per byte (9th chip).
This math makes it out to me a 1MB module.
Can anyone confirm that is what it is ? I bought it as a 4MB module.
Also, I believe this came out of an 11/73. Will this work in an 11/83,
and if so, does it operate as PMI memory ?
Thanks in advance from all you PDP11 gurus out there.
And... if this isn't PMI memory, and if is only a 1MB board, would
anyone want to take in in trade towards a M8637-EF (MSV11-JE)
to go along with the existing MSV11-JE I have.
-- Curt
Doc wrote
> IBM's idea of a hobbyist license is $15,000 a shot.
Just out of curiosity, how does one generally learn these business
systems?
For MVS we have Hercules, for VMS there's the hobbyist program (and
either cheap VAXen/Alphas or emulators), but for MPE/iX and
i5/OS-OS/400 there's nothing. Is it similar to accordion repair where 2
schools turn out our entire national supply? Or do businesses keep a
couple of old machines in the back for people to learn on?
The stuff below just arrived today. The items marked with "*" I am keeping,
the rest is available if anyone wants them.
* Unopened box syncom platinum soft sector 8" diskettes (10)
"Box" style binder "MicroPDP-11 Hardware Information" (2 manuals, Owners
manual and Technical manual). Appears to be for BA123 type systems.
* BA11-K mounting box users manual
* DZ11 asynchronous multiplexor technical manual
* Microsystems CP/M Programmers (quick) reference guide
* TRS-80 Computer Reference Handbook (basic & command ref. for I, II, II, 4,
100, MC-10 and coco)
RT-11 pocket guide
* RSX11-M mini reference
RT11 mini reference manual
PDP11 processor handbook (pdp11 04/24/34a/44/70 1981)
IMS International Ultima Series video display terminal user manual (2
copies)
IMS International Ultima Series ultima II video display terminal user manual
Digital Research Inc. CP/M "R" 2.2 Update (setup disk, and disk's 1,2,3
{5.25, soft sector})
A box containing a large number of DEC ribbon cables, most of which I don't
know what they are for. There is one BC11A-10 that I will probably keep.
If anyone wants the items not marked "*", let me know. Total cost (including
shipping) is 1.25 times actual shipping costs.
Jay West
Hi,
Time to introduce myself. My name is Lars Hamr?n, and I live in
Sweden. My very first computer was a 16-bit Computer Automation Alpha
LSI-2, that at first I programmed in Basic, and them in assembly.
Some time ago I decided that, for sentimental reasons, I wanted an
LSI-2, but soon discovered that CA was virtually forgotten and that
very little remained. My scope was therefore expanded to try to
collect and save as my of CA:s computer side as possible. (CA also
made automatid test equipment).
With a little luck, a lot of e-mails and phone calls, and a lot of
help from other people, some of whom are active on this list (thank
you!), I have been able to collect more than I initially hoped for,
but a lot is of course still missing.
There is a web site dedicated to the project at
http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/
It details parts of the collection.
I would very much like to get in contact with anyone who has
information on these machines, or who has first-, second- third- or
eve fourth-hand experience with these machines, or may know of someone
who has.
They are really becoming very rare, so *ANY* help and information is
likely to be of value.
Kind regards
/Lars Hamr?n
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Lars Hamr?n Tel...: +46( 46)189090
Svensk Datorutveckling Mobile: +46(705)189090
Vadm?llan 211 e-mail: hamren at sdu.se
S-225 94 Lund WWW...: www.sdu.se
Sweden
Several people have been talking about modems and the like, and even acoustic
couplers. Here are some points:
The 103 Modem frequencies are:
1070/1270 and 2025/2225 ('mark' is the higher frequency).
One group is used in each direction. As I remember it the high group was used
as transmit on the answer side, as the "answer tone" (one of the high
frequencies) was one that tripped the echo suppressors to "off" so they
wouldn't interfere with the transmission of the data. The 103 modem has a 200
Hz shift (difference between mark and space) and doesn't like much above twice
the shift frequency in data rate (that is why things changed after 300 bps).
Some people were lucky (real lucky if you ask me) to get 450 bps out of the
thing.
Acoustic couplers go WAY back. In the 60's (some might think this is ancient
history) it wasn't good to attach things directly to the phone line (people did
it any way, but I digress). So, many schemes were used to couple things to the
phone line. One of the most successful vendors was Anderson Jacobson.
Tymshare (yeah, the guys with the SDS 940's) also developed a coupler. Their
original one used magnetic coupling for the receive side as is was less prone
to noise. Since you had the coupler near the ASR-33 you can imagine the noise.
Magnetic coupling is still used in "hearing aid compatible" telephones (you
will see it on pay phones with blue strain reliefs on the handset cord).
At higher speeds several standards abounded. Bell "202" modems used a single
FSK carrier with a wide shift to accommodate 1200 bps in ONE direction. The
standard (Bell Standard) provided for a 5 bps back channel (so you could tell
the other guy to "turn the line around"). Others expanded on the back channel
to make it an FSK pair (around 300 Hz as I remember) that would about 150 bps.
If you were using a CRT terminal, this was OK since you could hardly type that
fast, and having the (big computer like pdp-10, or others) respond back at 1200
bps seemed like lightening fast.
The next standard (The phone company was allowing direct connections by then)
was 1200 full duplex. The first one was Vadic 3400, followed by Bell 212.
While similar, they had opposite answer/originate pairs and were not
compatible. These modems took in the 1200 async data and converted it to a
synchronous stream that was sent over the carrier. What was nice is that if
you used the modem and connected to a "low speed" (Bell 103 type) modem, it
used those frequencies (like a second modem).
Later developments raised the speed up to 33k bps full duplex using lots of
computing power in the modem (which got cheaper to do). with various "V.xxx"
standards. All of this finished up with 56k modems which was the limit for a
DS0 channel (8 bits, less one for signalling and 8k samples per second).
Just remember, programming on an ASR33 is a VERY humbling experience. Everyone
should try it for one project just to get it. Unfortunately, comments get
sacrificed but you do make up for it in the scribbles on the real paper.
--
Tom Watson
tsw at johana.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
Hi Ethan,
did you manage to find the power supply info you requested for the Panoview
630, as I have just aquired one but without the power supply.
Ray
Some pictures of my Dulmont Magnum are available at
http://www.taswegian.com/dulmont.zip (about 18MB download). There don't
seem to be too many pictures of this around, so thought I'd post these for
those interested.
Cheers
A
I have a friend who has an older AS/400 in his personal collection of
computers. (It is in the collection because the AS/400 is unique enough
to be interesting.) He doesn't know a lot about it but he did manage to
get a console, wire it correctly, and get to the OS/400 command line.
To do anything remotely interesting with the machine he needs to have a
development environment. I am figuring green screen COBOL, C and RPG
are good enough. Does anybody know how to engage IBM to find out if
license keys are available for home/hobbyist use? (Other manufacturers
like DEC did this for their 'bigger' iron.)
Mike
PS: I work for IBM and I have code in every release of the AS/400 from
V3R6 on up, and even I don't know where to go for this one ...
In what is the longest time *I* am aware of between Version 1.0 and
Version 2.0 of a program (1979-2007), I'm happy to announce an updated
version (2.0) of Adventure for your OS/8 system.
(OK, I could have delayed this a couple of years and made it 30 years
between releases..)
Thanks to a list member that supplied me with the DECUS sources and Bob
Supnik's RT-11 Adventure source, as well as a few helpful OS/8 FORTRAN
libraries on the Internet, I've managed to not only recover the program
source, but also make several improvements in the way it works.
Unfortunately, it's still a memory hog that needs 32KW to run.
I'm making source and binary floppies in SIMH-format, a zip file with
all sources, and a web page with the individual source files available.
http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html has pointers to the SIMH
floppy images, sources, etc.
Happy exploring!
-Rick
Hey, that thing is hard to get to! Someone tightened down the screws in the
back that hold the regulator in place, so after undoing the two screws in
front it still won't slide out. Is there a trick to this? Do I have to take
the whole supply out? Can't get a screw driver in there with the upper H742
in place :\
Suggestions appreciated :)
Jay
Some pictures of my "data numerics DL-8A" are available in a zip file at
http://www.taswegian.com/datanumerics.zip
Cheers
A
_____
From: Andrew Davie [mailto:andrew at taswegian.com]
Sent: Thursday, 22 March 2007 3:36 PM
To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org'
Subject: some old stuff
Hey all
I've been in and out of the classic computer collecting 'circles' over the
past decade and a half, but these days don't have much time to play with the
old toys. I thought I'd divest myself of some of the items that I've been
collecting and though I wasn't sure if it were appropriate to advertise 'for
sale' on the list, it's probably OK to let people know that I have these
items and that I'll be happy to provide pictures and/or information for
historical reasons. If you are interested in trade/sale discussion please
contact me privately (andrew - at - taswegian.com). General questions about
functionality/history can go to the list.
I have a DataNumerics DL-8A. This is possibly the only one still alive,
certainly the only one I've heard of in a decade+ in collectors' hands.
It's a front-panel machine very much like an early Altair - lots of blinking
lights. Very nice visuals, and appears to work perfectly - I fire it up
every year or so. Inside it's an 8080, I think - haven't had it open for a
while. Totally wirewrapped, quite neatly made. and with a low serial number
in the 20s, from memory. I'll be happy to do images and/or provide
additional information as requested.
I also have a Dulmont Magnum with original manual. This is one of the very
first laptops, comes with a fold-up 4-line LCD display. I haven't had this
one working, nor have I tried. I'd be guessing to say it was functional,
but there are no obvious issues like battery damage, etc. Weighs a ton, but
for its day it was no doubt a portable marvel.
I do have an extensive collection of early Soviet calculators and handheld
computers. I collected most of these in the mid to late '90s when building
my site Museum of Soviet Calculators -
http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/soviet.html . The collection includes a
prototype or two, including one of the only two known MK-98 machines. The
collection as a whole (100 machines?), but not individually is available for
trade/sale.
Finally, I have a very interesting homebrew machine built by a fairly well
known Australian electrical wizard of the '70s and '80s, who published many
articles in the aussie electronics magazines. This particular machine was a
Signetics 2650 machine, but configured to run 8080 code (and hence, CP/M)
through a software emulator. The whole machine, including the video card,
was designed and built by the one guy and can be considered historical and
one-of-a-kind.
That's about it, really. If anyone would like pictures and/or further
information on these just ask.
Cheers
A
my application anyway. What is the typical maximum
speed of such a device, be it antiquated (I actually
used to have one of the old Radio Shack units), or
home-brewed.
And lookee, here's what I had:
http://cgi.ebay.com/RADIO-SHACK-ACOUSTIC-COUPLER-MODEM-
TRS-80-AC-3_W0QQitemZ180098721480QQcategoryZ80229QQss
PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
In fact, that's an acoustic modem. What I'd like to
implement is a "bridge" if you will between a modem
and a cellular device that would allow connection to
the internet. Ingenious, no? ;)
Please, no one tell me about software and such that's
presently available on the market. I'm aware of it,
own 99% of it, and I'll say here and now it's flakey
at best.
The technology is antiquated enough, albeit not the
application. O woe is me :(
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:43:45 -0500
From: Richard Lynch <richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: baud modifier
<snip>
Now I just need to convert the current loop on my
ASR-33 to RS-232 so I can try it out.
Richard Lynch
----------------------
Lots of ways of doing that; here's a simple one (p.4):
http://www.edn.com/archives/1998/080398/pdf/16di.pdf
mike
Maybe some can answer this question. Every (it seems) AlphaStation 200/250/255 that appears
on ebay ends up selling for more than what I *think* is a reasonable price. Maybe maintenance org's
buying spares? Are they used by some telecoms? I used to have the 255's as Operator interface
displays for process monitor/control. They used DUnix 4.0E and some apps from Siemens. I was able
to replace them with DS10's with little effort. I can maybe see why a DS10 would go for a high price, but
not the 200/250/255.
AlphaStation 200 - mostly Alpha cpus @166 or 233MHz
AlphaStation 250 - Alpha cpu @266MHz
AlphaStation 255 - Alpha cpu @233/266/300MHz
They were and are not _that_ fast and memory expansion is limited. I realize at the time (1995-1998)
time frame these machines were very fast, but this is 2007, you could purchase a used DS10 or DS20 and
gain alot of power for less money.
Clue me in please,
Dan @ Butler, PA
FYI
I just updated the webpage with the history of the Systems Engineering
Laboratories, Inc. [SEL], this was the first company I started working
for. There were alot of sporadic info spread across too many webpages
online so I started to consolidate this into one place. I just received
alot of back history from one of the old guys that worked there. So far,
there's some interesting stories and links in there. Some pages still
need to fill up with some more info, but it's a start.
History of Systems Engineering Laboratories, Inc. [SEL]
http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/computers_mini.html
=Dan
All:
I?m trying to resurrect a copy of OS/2 Warp 4 and I seem to have a bad
disk image. Does anyone have an image of Disk 17 that they can send me?
Also, does anyone know how many floppy disks Warp 4 contains? I?m afraid
that the damaged archive is truncated so I don?t know how many images I
might have had in it.
Thanks.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.altair32.comhttp://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp
I would agree, with Zane in that I would prefer an XP1000 @667Mhz to use every day. The
apps I have maintained have migrated easily from and AS200 in 1995 to the XP1000 without
issues, VMS 6.2 to 7.3. Maybe it is easier to do like kind replacement, you know all ports
the same. The AS200/233 go for at time over $300 US. Once in a while an AS300 (AS250)
can be found for less, depends on haw the ebay listing is worded.
Dan @ Butler, PA
Dear Sirs,
Would you please let me know your best guess wholesale and retail values of
the following IBM Manuals and disks:
IBM 1.1 DOS #6024001
IBM 2.00 DOS #6024061
IBM 2.02 Guide to Operations #6025000
IBM BASIC #6025010
Thank you for any help you can give me in valuing these items,
Nick Griffis
ngriffis at bellsouth.net