test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Hand-rolling a CP/M machine > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:02:52 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >With all of this recent 8-bit and CP/M talk, it's prompted me to do a >little digging on what it would take to put together a CP/'M machine >on my own. I already have a couple of commercially-produced boxes. >This is about taking a Z-80, some RAM, some ROM and a storage unit and >making it run CP/M. > >I've been reading the various threads, so I have a general idea of >what has to happen, but I'm still fuzzy on a few specifics, no doubt >due to my lack of deep experience with the Z-80. > >The point of ROM vs RAM at $0000 has been gone over a few times. Do >"standard" CP/M machines use a shadow-ROM technique, or what, to >cold-start? We used to use a trick with the 68000 that would map ROM >at $000000, _and_ at some higher address, with the first few >instructions jumping to the higher ROM image, , and either an I/O pin >that toggled the address mapping for the lower ROM image, or just >watching for the first pulse from A23, such that the act of jumping up >to the higher ROM address itself would remove ROM from the bottom of >the memory map, revealing RAM. there are two ways to do this. One is ROM at 0000h with a latch and logic to make it appear at reset (boot) and disappear when some specific event or port is activated. The other is to OR in a 1 to A15 so that Rom at F000h block also appears at 0000h and the logic can take that "ORing" out when not needed. The rom can then be disabled if desired. >>How did CP/M systems handle 64K of RAM? Was there one primary way it >was done, or did every hardware vendor do it differently? I should >probably just confine my efforts to 48K of RAM and use the upper 16K >for a boot ROM, but if it's easy to support 64K of RAM, why not? I'd say for practical running of the many CP/M applications 48K of ram is reasonable. CP/M can run in as little as 20K but, CP/M with ASM running leaves about 3k for symbol table and buffers in that case. I'd limit the minimal system then to maybe 32k (one 61256 32kx8 sram). There are so many different ways to do it that ones imagination can be taxed! And most ahve been used. Myself I prefer 8k, 16k or 32k Eprom at 0000h as then I can use that to launch CP/M and then disable it. CP/M is 5.5K for itself and the BIOS can add typically 1.5k to 3.5K. So a 8K can hold all of CP/M and BIOS image. Boot for such a system is simple, copy the image to the last 8k of ram jump to the BIOS coldboot vector ther code will disable rom and init low ram (page 0 the first 256 bytes) and your off and running. This saves the need to have system tracks and preparing them with some system prior to bring up. With 16k or more you can also have monitor code and utilities i the ROM. >To confirm, the minimal I/O system is some flavor of serial interface >for console I/O (presumably piped to a display smart enough to handle >ANSI codes), and some form of block-addressable storage with a CP/M >filesystem, right? Thats one way and by far the most common. Basically CP/M requires a console that can be any form of keyboard (BIOS makes it look like ASCII if needed) and a display (the most minimal I've done was 2 lines of 32char LCD!). However, for display I'd advise staying with 64x16 or better as many apps like BASIC, MUltiplan, Editors want a full 80x24 screen. >(I'm ignoring handy I/O like parallel printer ports and 8255-type GPIO and the like, for the moment). Definatly optional but useful. > Is it required that the storage unit be writable? No. CP/M does not swap or page. However, it's less than useful without some writeable storage but that can be drive B. I've built systems wher drive A: is 512k of Eprom (EEprom) as WOROM (write once for bringup) and runs as romdisk and a second "device" that is 512k of ram as ramdisk. With CMOS ram it can be battery backed up and for CP/M 512K is a useful working space. FYI: the core CP/M programs (ED, PIP, STAT, ASM, DDT and LOAD) fit in somthing like 40K. So a small romdisk of say 128k (27C010) can hold a lot. > Is there a minimum size for the display? CP/M itself doesn't care those anything less than 32char wide and 4 lines is hard to work with. Applications like editors rarely work acceptably (to the user) with less tha 64 character lines and 16of them. One system epson PX-8 is 480x64 pixels and runs in character mode as 80x8. I'd consider that usable from experiece with it. >That wouldn't matter for hanging a VT100-equivalent off of >the console port, but if I were to use some flavor of textual LCD, it >would very much matter. To find another way to ask, would the body of >extant CP/M apps freak out if you try to run them on a display that's >under 40 chars wide or under 24 chars tall? Do they expect 64 chars >wide or 80 chars wide? I don't think the OS itself actually cares how >wide or tall the display is, but perhaps some of the CUSPs, like DIR, >might. See comments already made. I'm currently playing with a small pannel of 240x64 (32x8). Works but hard for reading lots of long text. Reminder Epson had the an earlier system with a smaller screen, Tandy M100 was 40x4, Osborne-1 was 50char by 16 lines (might have been 20) so it's been done. >Rather than taking a bare Z80, wiring on a Z8530, an SRAM or two and >an EPROM, I was contemplating beefing up my 1976 SDS Z-80 Starter Kit >to the point where it could run CP/M. I've written about it here >before, when I first got it, to remind those that don't know or don't >remember what it is, it has a ~2MHz Z80, 1K of 21L02 SRAM, room for >one more K, one 2716 with "ZBUG", two empty 2716 sockets (one attached >to an EPROM programming circuit), a keypad and 7-segment LEDs, a >largish wire-wrap area, and two S-100 slots. Presuming I wire the >SRAM, a larger-capacity EPROM, and some serial device into the >wire-wrap area, is there anything I should look for in an S-100 card >that would be interesting to install? A video card (rather than a >serial console), perhaps? I think I have one or two S-100 video >cards, but I was never clear on how one attaches a keyboard to that >rig - is there an ASCII keyboard port typically provided on an S-100 >video card, or is that a separate peripheral? How you get there is fairly unlimited. If the SDS is S100 it's likely easier to find a S100 RAM board (Compupro Ram16, ram17 and many others are 6116 or 6164 srams for 64k). For exmple I have a Computime SBC-880 S100 card. Thats a Z80, 1K of ram, 2716 Eprom, 8251 serial, 8253 timer (baud rate and free timers) plus parallel IO on a S100 card. That with a RAM16, VDM1 (64x16 video), a DEC LK02 keyboard (ASCII parallel) plus one HomeBrew card that has a IDE drive (100mb) and a s100 interface for 16bit IDE. That's 4 boards and give me a 64k Z80 system that runs CP/M. A 5th board is a Computime 4 serial port card for excess IO.. S100, My $0.02 is leave those boards for the S100 bus as the signals needed were devolved from z80 to look like 8080 and to talk to those boards and it eats TTL when talking from bare Z80. If you have a z80 for S100 and Memory, serial IO the only thing needed (if the Z80 does not have rom provisions) is a ROM and storage card. Much easier than trying to interface a non S100 Z80 board to S100. What makes S100 nasty is the split data bus, one for read path one for write path , that makes for a lot of redundant buffers and steering logic. >Thanks for any and all answers to my noobish CP/M questions, Many have no idea what the hardware can be under CP/M. Allison

19 years, 2 months

help to indentify selectric

by hansvdpuijl＠scarlet.be

Hello, Those terminals are based on the IBM Selectric typewriter. I have used them +- 1975 and must have the IBMmanual of it but d'not ask me where. If you should need it I can search for it and copy. Groetjes, Old-Hans tsg53939 at scarlet.be --- Scarlet ADSL Unlimited - Only 24,95 euro per month. Max download Speed up to 6 Mbps, download volume of 30 GB. Order now...

19 years, 2 months

Junkbox CP/M system?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:32:21 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 23 Apr 2007 at 18:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> From a programming point of view, how easy is accessing IDE compared to a >> typical FDC ('765 or similar)? I did write some assembler to access an IDE >> drive about 12 years ago, but have long since forgotten details! :-) > >CF IDE is easy--it's 8 bit. HD IDE uses a 16-bit data path for >sector data transfer, so that makes things a bit more involved. >Otherwise, the register set looks pretty much like a WD1003 PC-AT >type disk controller. > >Cheers, >Chuck One thing, you do not have to use D8-15! Sur you give up half the data in a sector but you also eliminate a lot of hardware. That and even an old 100MB drive will yeild 50mb which by CP/M standards is the world in a bottle. Allison

19 years, 2 months

Junkbox parts...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

The question on junkbox z80 systems made me remember that old 386 and 486 system besides providing a raft of 32kx8 SRAMS also had a keyboard interface chip.. I have a few salvaged 8742(smae as 8242) from PC hardware of the AT class 80386-486 level. Without resorting to eraseing the Eproms (8742) and reprogramming them I've wondered if.. Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and commands they take? Allison

19 years, 2 months

Junkbox CP/M system?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:16:08 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 24 Apr 2007 at 5:16, Ensor wrote: > >> The original IDE drives used 8-bit transfers (I had one in my first XT), >> even to this day there is still be a signal on the IDE interface to force >> the use of 8-bit mode. > >It's safe to say that there hasn't been an IDE drive manufactured >within the last 10 years that supports 8 bit data transfer mode. >Even many of those that claim to support it don't (probably just >vestigal "cut and paste" text). I once went through my stack of >320MB and up 3.5" IDE drives and couldn't find a single one that >actually supported 8 bit PIO Same here and I have IDE drives all the way down to 10mb. A few like the WD TIDBIT80 seem to do it and none of my 2.5" drives from 160mb up do it. All of my Connor 21/40/60/80mb drives do not, nor do any of the collection of Seagates from 80mb through 500mb. I also have a potload of WD drives and I suspect a few smaller ones (20mb) but have found nothing documented that says they do and haven't tried them > Mostly, IOCS16- is ignored on most >drives. There was a considerable amount of debate in X3T10 when ATA- >2 was being hammered out as to whether IOCS16- should even be >included in the list of signals (it was removed when X3T10 defined >ATA-3). It was reinstated in ATA-5 on request from the CF group. All the vendor docs I've seen seem to make IO16 an output as a notification that the current transfer is 16bit. >On CF, IOCS16- is honored--but it's not on any IDE hard drive you're >going to buy today. I've heard that was true of any drive over 500mb and have not seen anything over 80mb that does. Me I keep saying if you really need the simplicity of 8b transfers and the low cost that comes from a surplus IDE drive just ignore the high 8bits and enjoy it. There's no harm from that. So what if half the storage is unused, likely the drive is large anyway. Allison

19 years, 2 months

Junkbox parts...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Junkbox parts... > From: M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:41:05 -0300 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >A couple of relevant sites: > >http://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy325/spring-2006/docs/8042.pdf > >http://www.beyondlogic.org/keyboard/keybrd.htm > >mike Thanks for the info. After years of using nicely encoded keyboards the AT/PS2 deal is a mess. Allison > >******************************** >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:19:55 -0700 >From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> >Subject: Re: Junkbox parts... > >On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:29, Allison wrote: > > >> Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for >> small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. >> Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how >> to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and >> commands they take? > >It's all described in pretty decent detail in the PC AT Techref. >Look in the "System Board" section. When I first saw it, I wondered >why the IBM writers had wasted so much paper on it. > >Cheers, >Chuck

19 years, 2 months

looking for..

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

This is my annual looking for item. I am serching for the schematic or manual supplied with the IMSAI IMP-48. The IMP48 is a single board computer that used 8035, eprom(1k), ram(1k) and 8279 keyboard display contrller to drive an 8 digit led display and a keypad. Allison

19 years, 2 months

Junkbox parts...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Junkbox parts... > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:19:55 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:29, Allison wrote: > > >> Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for >> small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. >> Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how >> to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and >> commands they take? > >It's all described in pretty decent detail in the PC AT Techref. >Look in the "System Board" section. When I first saw it, I wondered >why the IBM writers had wasted so much paper on it. I don't have the PC AT Techref, any hope for that on line? Also are the later versions (the AT version used a 8041A and the 386 and later versions use 8042 [more ram, more rom and faster]) the same as that spec? Allison

19 years, 2 months

Junkbox CP/M system?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Junkbox CP/M system? > From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:47:34 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Just buffer some data and address lines off for a floppy or IDE > > interface > > From a programming point of view, how easy is accessing IDE compared to a >typical FDC ('765 or similar)? I did write some assembler to access an IDE >drive about 12 years ago, but have long since forgotten details! :-) IDE (or CF) is easier than floppy. First, it's buffered so you do not have the tight timing problem of FDC data transfer rates. Second, the the interface is around the same as for an PPI or serial port more or less. Allison

19 years, 2 months

KY11 - ever debug one?

by brad＠heeltoe.com

I could swear there was a discussion recently (like in the last week) about 11/34 consoles and KY11 documentation. Or maybe I dreamed that up. Anyway, it prompted me to try and figure out why my 11/34 console was blank. The serial monitor works fine, as does the cpu, but the "digits" in front are blank and only the run and dc-ok lights are on. (this is a symptom described in the ky11 documenation - thank you very much to whomever scanned that in) Has anyone debugged a dead KY11 ? Any hints? I looked at the docs and schematics and followed the wise words on page 8-2 titles "M7859 FAILURES" I have +5 and -9 on the 8008 as well as clock(s). But the "INTR" line (pin 18) is stuck high. I assume this is the problem. [aside - I plugged one of the cables (J3) in backward and got the display to show all zeros', but the scan rate was *very* slow, light 10hz; I found that interesting] STOP L and TS1 L are inactive, as are all the S0,S1 & S2 on the 8008. Interestingly ping 14 is wiggling. I don't have a databook with with an 8008 in it and that pin is not labeled. I have only just started, but I'd thought I'd ask if anyone has done this recently. It's fun debugging ttl. It's all so *slow* and manageable ;-) -brad

19 years, 2 months

Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question)

by classiccmp＠memory-alpha.org.uk

Hi, > A European PC with a CGA card will output 60Hz NTSC video.... Whilst this is perfectly true, IIRC the IBM CGA monitor takes the "RGBI" signal produced by the card, not the composite one. I believe that the composite output was intended primarily for driving a modulator to allow the use of an ordinary TV with the system. Almost none of the "clone" CGA cards I've come across over the years support the composite video output. TTFN - Pete.

19 years, 2 months

Junkbox parts...

by dm561＠torfree.net

A couple of relevant sites: http://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy325/spring-2006/docs/8042.pdf http://www.beyondlogic.org/keyboard/keybrd.htm mike ******************************** Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:19:55 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: Re: Junkbox parts... On 23 Apr 2007 at 11:29, Allison wrote: > Can these parts (PC AT keyboard interface) can they be used for > small system as a interface from AT or PS2 keyboard to a 8bit micro. > Right off I suspect yes. However is there any information on how > to "talk" software wise to them as to what kind of results and > commands they take? It's all described in pretty decent detail in the PC AT Techref. Look in the "System Board" section. When I first saw it, I wondered why the IBM writers had wasted so much paper on it. Cheers, Chuck

19 years, 2 months

CP/M survey

by mtapley＠swri.edu

DEC Rainbow (8087, 832k (max for -A model), but that's irrelevant to CP/M-80).

19 years, 2 months

Lack of 8-bit threads (was Re: Linux question)

by classiccmp＠memory-alpha.org.uk

Hi, >(....I'm partial to just about any MC68k series systems that didn't >come from Cupertino). Personally, I'm partial to just about any machine which isn't hamstrung by being based around the lousy, prehistoric x86 architecture.... ;-) TTFN - Pete.

19 years, 2 months

HP MUX cable.

by trasz＠freebsd.org

Does anyone have the pinouts (schematics) for cable to connect HP 9000 E25 with MUX (MDP)? E25 has a strange four-row socket (called DB78, afaik), and MDP has normal DB9. I'd like to get this machine to work, and it's the only way to get a console. Thank you :-) -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

19 years, 2 months

Jim Willing? Are you out there?

by mkepp＠hevanet.com

Sellam; If you find him, let me know, as he screwed me out of $670, and quite a few others as well. I've tracked down his father in law, who claims to not be responsible for all the people he has screwed. Mark

19 years, 2 months

166MHz Alpha Multia for sale... Cheap...

by woyciesjes＠sbcglobal.net

Time to trim the excess. Wish I had time & space for it. It's in the New Haven CT. area. I'd prefer not to ship, but I will... Make me an offer. IIRC, floppy, external SCSI riser, 64MB (I think) RAM, no HDD, slide-cover over the floppy disk. Also, I do believe I have a spare chip for the one that tends to fry. Dead tree documentation in binders included... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh"

19 years, 2 months

SGI Reality Monster drives/OS?

by legalize＠xmission.com

Anyone know where I can get appropriate hard drives (don't know yet if I have the associated sleds) and OS media for an SGI Reality Monster Onyx2? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 2 months

More on CTS idiots

by legalize＠xmission.com

With my recent dovebid purchase, I got the usual form letter from CTS telling me that I should use them. I responded that based on my past experience with them, I would never use them again and I would never recommend them to anyone else. Then they replied that there were no "comments" on my previous order with them indicating that they had fucked up. My response was: That's capitalism, baby. You lose, someone else wins. Then I got a snarky reply from them telling me to "remember that when they trash your stuff". How could I forget that it was CTS who trashed my stuff, while Craters & Freighters did awesome work? What a bunch of fuckwits. I know y'all like these people, but this kind of attitude is exactly why I had problems with them and will never recommend them or use them again. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 2 months

Quick survey on equipment

by classiccmp＠memory-alpha.org.uk

Hi, >> BTW Can TRS-80 Model 1's or Memotech's run CP/M (I had an >>"SDX" disc pack.... > > No idea on the MEmotech (I don';t have one yet).... I just did a bit of "Googling"; seems the Memotechs could run CP/M when fitted with the "FDX" expansion "chassis". I never did manage to track one of those units down. They were pretty nifty gizmos which could house 2 floppy drives, a hard drive and Memotech's own "Silicon Discs" (aka ramdiscs) amongst other things. They also came with an internal 80 column video card to make CP/M usable. :-) The really odd thing is that I can find no mention whatsoever of the "SDX" disc unit which I had...? The SDX was a very simple unit, consisting of a single half height FD in a case with PSU and the interface which took the form of a "cartridge" which was the same shape as the computer and plugged in on the right hand side of the machine (you had to have a couple of internal expansion cards fitted to extend the expansion bus out to the edge of the case). This was most definitely a genuine Memotech product, but information on it was thin on the ground even "back in the day". > The problem was that CP/M needs RAM starting at location 0, the >TRS-80 has the BASIC ROMs there and starts RAM at, IIRC, 0x4000. Hmm, same problem as the Model III then (ISTR that had its ROM located at $0000 too, hence the reason for the Model IV). > The first solution was a modifed CP/M _and modified application >programs_ relocated to run in RAM starting at 0x4000.... Ouch....I can see that being somewhat "problematical". ;-) >....The second solution was an add-on circuit board.... Hmm, sounds like these are probably going to be as easy to get hold of now as hen's teeth...? Think I'll just get a Z80 Second Processor for my Beeb instead (far less hassle). TTFN - Pete.

19 years, 2 months

Quick survey on equipment

by doug＠stillhq.com

Some have questioned the number of people on the list who have CP/M systems. Lets do a quick survey - I'll start first! Pulsar Little Big Board - z80 CP/M 2.2 Bondewll 2 - z80 - CP/M 2.2 On the list of non CP/M systems: 3 x Apple II 5.25" disk systems 7 x Apple Mac systems (various) TRS-80 Model 1, 4, 4P 2 x Disk Smith System 80 1 Exidy Sourcerer 1 Energy Control Rockwell 65F11 (forth) system 1 Homebrew 65F12 system Amstrad CPC464 TI99/4A - No disk system though :-( Bucketloads of HP & TI Calculators No DEC Equipment - So can't help there (But I do have a SBC6120 PDP8 emulator.) Doug

19 years, 2 months

ALSPA Cpm box

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Jules Richardson wrote: jim wrote: [CA floppies] > Any thoughts on the list as to how to archive the data? I know > that Lars H. is going to do his thing, and owns them, but more > ideas would be welcome. Lars said something to me at the weekend about the disks that he has being a bit weird; the first track's laid down using FM density with the rest being MFM - and for some reason Imagedisk wasn't making sense of them even in "full analysis" mode. I'm not sure though if that was *all* CA disks, or just some of the ones he happened to have. ------------ Billy responds: I saw this a lot on the early 8" single sided drives. The transition to double density was FM to MFM. The first track was preserved as FM so older drives could still read the boot track and then check for double density hardware. I thought it had died out when the first double sided units came along, but obviously not. Some of the early LSI could handle this so it was invisible to the end user. All of our 8" test systems at Magnetic Peripherals used this format on the double density disks. Billy

19 years, 2 months

ISO: Amstrad 3" floppy drive

by cclist＠sydex.com

The one in my collection went belly-up (motor has developed a short in the windings). Does anyone stateside have one that I could buy? Thanks, Chuck

19 years, 2 months

Date fun

by drb＠msu.edu

Is the suspense killing you? :) The chopped off line: 31-JUL-31086 02:48:05.47 Sorry, De

19 years, 2 months

Poss OT: TZ875N DLT changer questions

by listmailgoeshere＠gmail.com

Hi list, I'd like to delve into the collective knowledge of those out there, with the following questions: (apologies if the TZ875N isn't quite 15 years old and is as such OT) 1) This changer currently has a 10/20GB (DLT2000) drive in it. Tapes for this (DLT 3) are hard to find on ePay. However, the 15/30GB DLT 3XT tapes are plentiful. What would happen if I tried using those? 2) Can I remove the DLT2000 drive and fit say a DLT4000 and will the changer still work? 2a) ISTR some discussion a while ago about the drives having to be a certain specific type (marked "Changer Only" or somesuch) to be useable in a changer. Is this right, or can I just slap any old DLT4000 I find in there? Sorry this is a bit vague - I haven't taken the thing to bits yet. Looking at its construction, it's going to be quite a challenge to do so. TIA, Ed.

19 years, 2 months

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