test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Nisc_load.exe R -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 06 June 2007 17:49 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New DEC problem Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > Boot, well sort of. Its down loading a file from a boot server using > BOOT EZA0 (The ethernet port). > That it does OK and on the boot server it says download OK. > However it does not run the downloaded file. I may have the wrong one. If it manages to download something (and thinks that it is successful) then that sounds like a non-fatal error. What are you downloading? Antonio

19 years

My Collection Profile

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Voltage problems apart what do you have? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: 06 June 2007 18:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: My Collection Profile Hi Rod, I have most of the items on your wish list, but I'm in the states. Thanks, Paul On 6/5/07, Rod Smallwood <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> wrote: > > The story so far: > > VAX 4000-200 x1 > > VAX 4000-300 x1 > > PDP11/94 x4 No CPU cards > > SA600 (4 x RA92) x1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > VT420 x3 > > VT320 x1 > > VT330 x1 > > LA75 x3 > > > > > > Of these, plus other (Non-Dec kit) for sale or swap > > (All funds to save other old DEC kit) > > PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 > > VT 420 x2 > > LA75 x2 > > HP 700 Terminal x1 > > HP 2392A Terminal x1 > > Shiva LAN Rover x1 > > Victor PC in pristine condx. X1 > > SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 > > Wish list > > PDP-8/E > > KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) x 4 Replacements for the missing 11/94 CPU > > MSV11-JE x 4 " " 11/94 Memory > > VT05 > > VT100 > > VT220 > > LA36 > > LA180 > > DELNI > > DECSA > > Rainbow > > Anything else with a DEC label I can lift and and will fit into the > car. > > Objectives > > Working Examples of PDP8 , PDP11, and VAX systems. > > DECNet Network to connect the above. > > Working Examples of VT100, VT200, VT300, VT400, and VT500 series > terminals > > Decserver 200 connecting the above to the network > > Working Examples of LA series terminals/printers > > > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > >

19 years

DEC parts code reference?

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Hi Guys The most useful internal document we had when I was at DEC was the Price Book. It consisted of a 250 page line printer document reduced from 15" to A3 and bound into Book format. Every saleable item was in there. There must have been a database somewhere with every item DEC sold and its part number. Im unsure but there may well have been a corporate DEC 10 in the Mill. Somebody, somewhere must have a tape backup of the price list. (Now that would be a real find!!) We never knew how the part numbers got allocated either. However the product numbers like DLV11-J tended to be generated by the Product Line And the module numbers like M7786 were of engineering origin. It makes a little more sense if you know the internal structure of DEC (yes it did have one!) Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 06 June 2007 22:28 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: DEC parts code reference? Jules Richardson wrote: > That's precisely my problem - I was spotting vague patterns earlier, > but then something would come along that just didn't fit in, and > having a few exceptions makes the whole idea of sifting things based > on part code alone rather redundant :-) DEC produced "stuff" for (just) over 40 years; naming consistency over that period is a tad tough :-) Someone sent me a copy of an Options and Modules CD set from the mid 1990s ... I think I sent it to Manx but I'm not sure how easy it would be to make available over the net. (It's not the amount of data, it's more how to present it). Antonio

19 years

PDP-11/34 front panel, for cost of postage

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

Still clearing things out... I found a spare PDP-11/34 front panel -- the "Programmer's" type, with the octal display and octal keypad. Complete with all the cables but does not include the KY11-L SPC card that would control it. Free for cost of postage from York, UK. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

19 years

DECnet and MOP

by dave＠mitton.com

>Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:32:54 +0100 >From: "Rod Smallwood" <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> > Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp. org> > ... >I probably failed to make my self clear. > > 1. Yes MOP is part of a whole heap of programs that go to > make up DECNET > > 2. MOP stands for Maintenance Operations Protocol and that > what is was for. > > 3 It pre dates DECnet (Well at lest internally in DEC) MOP is part of the DECnet architecture set, and like DECnet has gone through a number of versions, and releases. It actually underwent a boom in the later years, as Ethernet got cheap and diskless network devices became attractive. It is a simple lower level datagram protocol, and does not need the normal session stack to run. In smarter network devices, a MOP bootstrap can be in the device ROM. All that said; architecture, implementation, and deployment vary with platforms and time. For those that grew up on TCP/IP only (and thus doomed to repeat the past), it is best to think of MOP as the DECnet analog of BOOTP, with a little bit of DHCP and ARP sprinkled in. ... > 8. Its twenty-five years since I was a product manager in > DEC SWS. No wonder I'm a bit hazy on this stuff! > > Regards > Rod Smallwood There's your problem. I was a software engineer for DECnet-RSX, DECnet-PRO, DECnet-DOS, and PATHWorks. I was also the architect of the DAP Protocol v6 and a DECnet Token Ring Datalink. The later included MOP specfications too. I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. Dave.

19 years

Tandy 2000 in Australia

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tandy-TRS-80-Model-2000-complete-system-box_W0QQitemZ12… no keyboard apparently (though I could be wrong). Rock on Aussie dudes! We got software (or did) if ya need it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tandy2000/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7

19 years

Acorn Second Processors

by eelco＠huininga.nl

> > Hi, > > > > >> Changing the subject slightly, IIRC the original "Acorn 6502 > > >>Second Processor" cheese-wedge was just that, a faster 6502? > > > > > > Actualy, it's a 3MHz 65C02. > > > > Ah, thanks for that....it's been a few years since I had the lid off mine. > > > > > > >>....problems (in fact, total failure IIRC?) when I tried running > > >>a 65c02 in a Model B sometime in the early 90's? > > > > I too recently tried that, with three new 65c02's. The BBC would have > none of it : it only booted with the NMOS 6502 > > Jos IIRC this was caused by a slight timing difference of the Phi2 signal. This could be solved by placing two 220pF ceramic capacitors over pins 7 and 11 of IC29 and IC37. This would fix the Beeb's booting problem, but unfortunately this would create a DRAM timing problem for Solidisk's 96k Sideways RAM expansion for the 32k SWR board. Took me (literally) years to figure that out! One of my 'when-i-have-time' things is experimenting with the capacitor's value to see if I can find the right value :-) Cheers, Eelco

19 years

Xerox 16/8 on eBay

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-XEROX-16-8-Professional-Computer-RARE-COMPLETE_W0Q… ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

19 years

"vintage peecee - description forthcoming" LOL LOL LOL

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

ooh that's all I needed to hear! so stand back! I just gotta bid on this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-PC-Description-to-come_W0QQitemZ260124366498QQi… ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/

19 years

DEC parts code reference?

by aek＠bitsavers.org

did DEC (or a third party) ever produce a reference listing of DEC "parts codes" against function (e.g. RK05 = removable disk, KL11 = serial interface etc.) -- Yes, the 'edited' and 'unedited' options/modules list(s) The April 1983 edited document can be found at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/modules/modulesAndOptions/ There are separate catalogs for documentation, since they changed more often with software releases.

19 years

My Collection Profile

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

The story so far: VAX 4000-200 x1 VAX 4000-300 x1 PDP11/94 x4 No CPU cards SA600 (4 x RA92) x1 SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 VT420 x3 VT320 x1 VT330 x1 LA75 x3 Of these, plus other (Non-Dec kit) for sale or swap (All funds to save other old DEC kit) PDP 11/94 (No cpu cards) x2 VT 420 x2 LA75 x2 HP 700 Terminal x1 HP 2392A Terminal x1 Shiva LAN Rover x1 Victor PC in pristine condx. X1 SA600 (2 x RA92) x1 Wish list PDP-8/E KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) x 4 Replacements for the missing 11/94 CPU MSV11-JE x 4 " " 11/94 Memory VT05 VT100 VT220 LA36 LA180 DELNI DECSA Rainbow Anything else with a DEC label I can lift and and will fit into the car. Objectives Working Examples of PDP8 , PDP11, and VAX systems. DECNet Network to connect the above. Working Examples of VT100, VT200, VT300, VT400, and VT500 series terminals Decserver 200 connecting the above to the network Working Examples of LA series terminals/printers Rod Smallwood

19 years

free for shipping: IMS 5000 IS system, from austin, tx, usa

by frustum＠pacbell.net

I have mentioned this system on this list a couple times before. The IMS 5000 IS is a S-100 based multiprocessor system running turbodos 1.3 (an extended multiprocessing CP/M clone). It is a very well built machine, clearly intended for office use. It has a single DSDD 96 tpi 5.25" floppy and a 10 MB hard disk (rodime ro 200). It boots off the hard drive, and couple months ago I spent some time and cracked the login/password file. The floppy disk appears to work (I can "dir" and get files off a floppy created on a PC using the teledisk program). The system doesn't have much on it in the way of development software, just some custom apps written for the dentist's office this came out of. As it is a CP/M system, though, you can use standard CP/M programs on it. The master system has a 8085-based intelligent terminal card, plus a master Z80 CPU and two slave Z80 CPUs. Each cpu has 64 KB of parity checked DRAM. I tried plugging in the slave to the master but I suspect things are not cabled right, as the slave terminal acts as if it is wired in parallel to the master terminal. I'd like to find a new home for this system. I simply don't have enough time to mess with it, and I don't have enough interest to make the time. Here are some a few cruddy pictures: http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/ims5000/ The only problem is that the local/remote key on the slave terminal keyboard is broken off (before I received it). The key still works; you can depress the stub of the plunger that is left, but luckily it is a key that normally doesn't need to be used. This system would be shipped from austin, tx 78737 at your expense. I recommend fedex ground, as it seems to be the least expensive of the majors for heavy items like this. It would be two boxes. I haven't weighed them, but I would guess 50 lbs and 30 lbs. They were shipped to me in their original boxes, and I'd ship them to you the same way. This means that there is a custom foam shell for each unit, but it also means that the original boxes are somewhat tattered and one has been reinforced, so don't wail that I've ruined everything by harming the original boxes. I'll give preference to anybody willing to come and pick them up, soon.

19 years

New DEC problem

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Hi Boot, well sort of. Its down loading a file from a boot server using BOOT EZA0 (The ethernet port). That it does OK and on the boot server it says download OK. However it does not run the downloaded file. I may have the wrong one. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: 05 June 2007 22:54 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: New DEC problem Rod Smallwood wrote: > After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test > C5. > > Does anybody know what test C5 tests. > If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a > problem. When I had a KZQSA in a VAX 4000-500 I found that it would fail self-test if either port was left unterminated. I would not be surprised if an unterminated DSSI port had the same effect. Does it still boot if you make it boot manually (i.e. is the error fatal or does it just interfere with automatic booting?) Antonio

19 years

Re collection profile

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Well the DELNI can come off the list and from using a Chase IOLAN box as terminal server. I now have enough Decserver 200's to connect every type of serial device DEC ever made. They were going for a song so I gave them my version of "My Way" and got them very cheap!! Rod Smallwood

19 years

New DEC problem

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Thanks Rick I'll get the CPU manual from bitsavers. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 06 June 2007 11:49 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New DEC problem At 04:43 AM 6/4/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > And now something for all you Decsperts to get your teeth into. >My VAX4000-300 is failing the self test. > >After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test >C5. > >Does anybody know what test C5 tests. >If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a >problem. According to the KA670 Tech Manual (EK-KA670-TM, it's on bitsavers.) the C5 diagnostic is for the system support chip. I don't know if an unterminated DSSI will cause this, but it's plausible. Hopefully this additional information will elicit a more helpful reply. -Rick

19 years

New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Hi Thanks for the positive feed back. Needless to say like all standards S100 had different versions. For example the Northstar Horizion had some active components on the mother board. However if we look at a basic passive (other than power) back plane. What are the potential problems? Firstly the connectors are they available? They had two rows of fifty connections. Spacing pin to pin .125in. Mother board was thicker than the usual 1/16 in for rigidity possibily 3/32 in. Card guides pretty standard but how high? Then the metalwork supporting the card guides. Possible Parts List 1. Double sided S100 motherboard (Say twelve slots) 2. Aluminium base plate drilled for backplane and card guide supports. 3. Twelve double sided 2x50 edge connectors. 4. Card guide support frame. 5. Twenty four card guides. 6. Nuts, bolts and screws etc. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Sent: 03 June 2007 12:59 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available Rod, I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100 chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right parts. I can look into this. =Dan [ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] Rod Smallwood wrote: > Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is an S100 card cage with back plane and PSU. > Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of the house!! > > Rod Smallwood > >

19 years

New DEC problem

by rick＠rickmurphy.net

At 04:43 AM 6/4/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > And now something for all you Decsperts to get your teeth into. >My VAX4000-300 is failing the self test. > >After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test >C5. > >Does anybody know what test C5 tests. >If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a >problem. According to the KA670 Tech Manual (EK-KA670-TM, it's on bitsavers.) the C5 diagnostic is for the system support chip. I don't know if an unterminated DSSI will cause this, but it's plausible. Hopefully this additional information will elicit a more helpful reply. -Rick

19 years

AT&T dumb terminals available Seattle WA.

by g-wright＠att.net

Have a few AT&T terminals free for local pickup. I'm located in Kent, Wa. South of Seattle. These have been tested. Models 513 and 615. include keyboards (80's vintage) -Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net

19 years

DECnet and MOP

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Hi It would appear we are saying the same thing. It looks like I got reasonably close and you are confiming that I'll also take it that my interpretation of the relative positions in the OSI model etc. are OK. You imply this anyway. Would you mind answering one or two DECnet questions? Regards Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dave at mitton.com Sent: 06 June 2007 00:30 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DECnet and MOP >Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 02:32:54 +0100 >From: "Rod Smallwood" <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> > Subject: RE: Repairing the damage. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp. org> > ... >I probably failed to make my self clear. > > 1. Yes MOP is part of a whole heap of programs that go to make up > DECNET > > 2. MOP stands for Maintenance Operations Protocol and that > what is was for. > > 3 It pre dates DECnet (Well at lest internally in DEC) MOP is part of the DECnet architecture set, and like DECnet has gone through a number of versions, and releases. It actually underwent a boom in the later years, as Ethernet got cheap and diskless network devices became attractive. It is a simple lower level datagram protocol, and does not need the normal session stack to run. In smarter network devices, a MOP bootstrap can be in the device ROM. All that said; architecture, implementation, and deployment vary with platforms and time. For those that grew up on TCP/IP only (and thus doomed to repeat the past), it is best to think of MOP as the DECnet analog of BOOTP, with a little bit of DHCP and ARP sprinkled in. ... > 8. Its twenty-five years since I was a product manager in DEC SWS. No > wonder I'm a bit hazy on this stuff! > > Regards > Rod Smallwood There's your problem. I was a software engineer for DECnet-RSX, DECnet-PRO, DECnet-DOS, and PATHWorks. I was also the architect of the DAP Protocol v6 and a DECnet Token Ring Datalink. The later included MOP specfications too. I still have copies of all the Phase IV era DNA specs. Dave.

19 years

Got a LISP Machine on Sunday

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

Had a Symbolics 3640 dropped off on Sunday evening along with a Symbolics model OP36-DISP display. Missing are the keyboard, FD, and all the needed cables (power cord also). I opened the front door and saw two hard drives mounted inside. Will also be looking for manuals and some software. Anyone would information please email me. Thanks John

19 years

MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited...

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Hi Well done that guy!! What you have done is both the spirit and the essence of classic computing. You are to be congratulated on both effort and persistence. "A shining light to lead others into the darkness of old computer restoration" I was at DEC (UK) in the 70's and Modcomp would pop up as competition >from time to time. Hasn't that front panel got DEC overtones? Is there a keyboard terminal or screen with it? Rod Smallwood DecCollector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley Sent: 05 June 2007 05:07 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: MODCOMP II Rescue Revisited... A number of you probably remember me "announcing" in Jan, 2007 that I had rescued a MODCOMP II/12 from a lab here in Silicon Valley. The link for that is below (sorry, it's slow - the pictures are large). http://bickleywest.com/modcomp.htm After a lot of work cleaning up both the CPU and I/O chassis I began checking out the system. It turned out that the I/O chassis was in pretty bad shape. I went back to the lab facility where I found the MODCOMP II - looked through several more buildings - and found another lone MODCOMP II I/O chassis. I went through the "salvage" process again - and finally picked it up about a month ago. It was in a lot better shape than the original I/O unit. And the really great news - it was an identical configuration to my original I/O chassis. After cleaning it up, doing all the usual capacitor, power supply checking - I powered it up - and everything "looked" good - and no bad "cooking" smells ;-) I cabled up the CPU and I/O unit, powered 'em up - and to my amazement the front panel controls seemed to work O.K. I then did the usual hand memory tests - and core memory worked O.K. every location I tested. I then wrote a bunch of small diagnostics (in machine code) - and found that I/O was not easy to code - but I did enough to check that the console in/out ports worked O.K. Today I loaded diagnostic monitors, and diags - and most of the system - including I/O is working! The really good news is that all 64K (words) of core memory passed the long manufacturing memory diagnostic - which even tests for "hot cores" failing. It's been months in the making this critter come alive - but it sure feels great when the diagnostics tell you that you are on the right track :-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

19 years

early IDE card on eBay

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/IDE-Controller-for-Hard-Drive-KS-4-16-Bit-ISA-1989_W0QQ… Anyone have one of these they'd like to sell? I ain't paying $50 though. Funny "Joe" seems to think generic Taiwanese stuff should command that kind of value. And he has a lot of it up for bidding, all priced in a similar outrageous fashion. ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/

19 years

Vintage Mac II NuBus video card identification

by lynchaj＠yahoo.com

Hi, I recently came into possession of a vintage video card apparently for a NuBus Mac II. Can anyone help identify it? I do not have a Mac so I cannot plug it into anything. It is a two card video board from Rasterops with an apparent NuBus connector. The boards both say "RASTEROPS CORP MADE IN U.S.A." The main board says "(C) 1987" and the daughterboard says "(C) 1988" The back of the main card says "P.C.B. 0001-0013 REV. XB1" The back of the daughter card says "P.C.B. 0001-0019 REV. 01" There are no visible FCC IDs anywhere on the card but may be buried under the circuitry. I have not disassembled the card. Here are some photos of the card. ?Any information would be appreciated, even confirming what Mac II NuBus video card this model is NOT would be helpful. ?Based on an earlier post on "comp.sys.mac.graphics" with responses and some clues, I suspect it to be a RasterOps 24L card cannot confirm it. http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/img_3023.jpg http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/img_3024.jpg http://www.geocities.com/lynchaj/img_3025.jpg Thanks in advance! Andrew Lynch

19 years

New DEC problem

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Hi And now something for all you Decsperts to get your teeth into. My VAX4000-300 is failing the self test. After selecting the language it counts down to 10 and then fails test C5. Does anybody know what test C5 tests. If its an unterminated DSSI bus thats OK anything else could be a problem. Rod Smallwood

19 years

New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available

by marvin＠west.net

I also use PCBExpress for the small boards I make (transmitters and offset attenuators for transmitter hunting), and they are quick and inexpensive. I'm told by a friend of mine that a place in (I think) Bulgeria makes good quality boards at a better price (and are ROHS compliant) but I haven't tried them. Sidelight - The guy who started PCBExpress lives in Santa Barbara and used to work for Polymorphic Systems. One of the things *I* am interested in is finding out is if a "MicroAltair" was ever made by Polymorphic or if it was a preliminary announcement that got quashed by MITS. That was why the reason for the conversation I had with him (still don't know, but got another lead to find out.) Marvin, KE6HTS > but the "bare bones" boards. I use them for prototypes too. If you want > high volume large "bare bones" PCBs, NO ONE (that I've found) so far can > beat PCBExpress. I used them to make 20 14x12" PCBs for my 19,008 LED > bitmap display. I think the bill was $340. :D They are kind of strange > about drill sizes... You have to choose from around 15 sizes. > > Grant

19 years

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test-drb