test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

What are the really unusual or weird computers?

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> That reminds me that a very fast cpu chip was designed for very fast > multi-tasking.Poiled I/O is faster than a IRQ could be because you > can change threads very quickly. Ubicom http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/3151/3151.html

19 years

T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re:,Simulated CP/M-68K?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re:,Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 02:43:26 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> skrev: > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: >Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > > > > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:22:25 -0400 > > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ><cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > > > > > >On 6/20/07, Roger Ivie <rivie at ridgenet.net> wrote: > > >> >> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: > > >>> >> > It's an easy cpu to interface and use... > > > > > > >> >> > > >> >> However, it's not without its obnoxious bits. > > >> >> > > >> >> On the T-11, all writes are performed as read-modify-writes. > > > > > > > >Hmm... was that because of the needs of core memory, or was it just to > > > >simplify some aspect of its internal design? > > > > It's part of the memory to memory design and the way intructions work. > > > > It's annying as micros go but ALL PDP-11s word that way and the T-11 > > is a PDP-11 in LSI. > >No, it isn't. Where did you get that? (And I've just triple checked my >memory by actually reading through parts of the 11/40 and 11/70 manuals.) > >The 11/70 don't even have a read-modify-write cycle defined on the >memory bus. If you write less than 32 bits, the memory box itself must >do the read-modify-write cycle. The CPU and memory bus is totally >unaware of that detail. >On the Unibus, the processor can use both pure write cycles (DATO/B) or >read-modify-write (DATIP followed by DATO/B). Then why is the output address of a DL card differnt from the input address? It doesnt have anthing to do with the read before write does it? >The memory systems can, and must be able to deal with both. Saying that >RMW is a part of the memory to memory design is pure nonsense. And the >same for how instructions work. It depends on wether the instruction >mandates that it's a RMW or not. >Arithmentic instructions for instance, are typical read-modify-write, >while pure writes becomes pure writes on the bus to memory as well. Ok, You attacked me. Why does the T-11 and most all of the Qbus machine do a read before write, or as you say a DATIP before any DATO(B/W)? >So in short: writes on PDP-11 systems in general don't imply a read. >That's a T-11 thing if it does, and is probably related to simplifying >the design (internal) more than anything else. I don't think they did it >with core memories in mind. All Unibus core memories have their own >write-back. That isn't something the CPU bothers with. > >For the Q-bus, I don't even know if any core memories exist. I do as I have two 16k sets (32kW). Allison > Johnny

19 years

T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re:, Simulated CP/M-68K?

by bqt＠softjar.se

Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> skrev: > > > > > >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > > > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > > > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:22:25 -0400 > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > > > >On 6/20/07, Roger Ivie <rivie at ridgenet.net> wrote: > >> >> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: > >>> >> > It's an easy cpu to interface and use... > > > > >> >> > >> >> However, it's not without its obnoxious bits. > >> >> > >> >> On the T-11, all writes are performed as read-modify-writes. > > > > > >Hmm... was that because of the needs of core memory, or was it just to > > >simplify some aspect of its internal design? > > It's part of the memory to memory design and the way intructions work. > > It's annying as micros go but ALL PDP-11s word that way and the T-11 > is a PDP-11 in LSI. No, it isn't. Where did you get that? (And I've just triple checked my memory by actually reading through parts of the 11/40 and 11/70 manuals.) The 11/70 don't even have a read-modify-write cycle defined on the memory bus. If you write less than 32 bits, the memory box itself must do the read-modify-write cycle. The CPU and memory bus is totally unaware of that detail. On the Unibus, the processor can use both pure write cycles (DATO/B) or read-modify-write (DATIP followed by DATO/B). The memory systems can, and must be able to deal with both. Saying that RMW is a part of the memory to memory design is pure nonsense. And the same for how instructions work. It depends on wether the instruction mandates that it's a RMW or not. Arithmentic instructions for instance, are typical read-modify-write, while pure writes becomes pure writes on the bus to memory as well. So in short: writes on PDP-11 systems in general don't imply a read. That's a T-11 thing if it does, and is probably related to simplifying the design (internal) more than anything else. I don't think they did it with core memories in mind. All Unibus core memories have their own write-back. That isn't something the CPU bothers with. For the Q-bus, I don't even know if any core memories exist. Johnny

19 years

Industrial 14's

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> does anyone on the list collect PDP-14s I'd like to find an Industrial 14 and VT-14 for CHM.

19 years

Your contributions wanted! DEC graphics products

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> OK, I know DEC had some graphics products (VR something? GT something?) DEC had a long history of displays, going back to the Type 30 display on the PDP-1 Type 338, 339, and 340 displays processors for the PDP-8, 9 and 10, respectively DEC's laboratory systems all had point plot scopes (LINC, LINC/8, PDP12) VR was the designation for their CRTs. There were two generations of display list vector processors (VT-11, packaged with a PDP11 CPU as the GT series) and the VS-60 and a 512x512 raster display with a similar instruction set (VS-11) -- The E&S LDS-1 was a peripheral for the KA-10

19 years

Your contributions wanted! DEC graphics products

by legalize＠xmission.com

OK, I know DEC had some graphics products (VR something? GT something?) and I know that some of you out there are much more knowledgable about these than I, so can I get a little help here? Please create a free account on my web site and add information about DEC graphics peripherals for the PDP-8, PDP-11, and DECsystem series of computers. If you know stuff about their workstations that would be great too! <http://www.computergraphicsmuseum.com> Everything is done as a wiki, so it should be easy to edit and add information once you create yourself an account. The whole site is run by me, and I give spammers a quick knee to the groin when I meet them in person, so you know I'm not going to abuse your personal data. Thanks for your help! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years

New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available

by classiccmp＠memory-alpha.org.uk

Hi, > I can't comment on the quality of their services, I just >happened to have a magazine on the desk with their adverts >in. Thanks for the info, mostly just idle curiosity at the moment. TTFN - Pete.

19 years

Pinging Dan Veeneman

by mokuba＠gmail.com

Tried to reply to your emails but i'm getting message delivery failed responses -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG

19 years

Baseline H-11 board set?

by oldcpu＠rogerwilco.org

Ethan Dicks said: > What I haven't been able to find online is a list of the boards that > an H-11 typically shipped with. I know it used an LSI-11 (11/03) CPU, > so there's that, plus a console SLU board, probably a Heath one (don't > know the part number), the H-27 host card, and at least 16K of RAM, > I'm figuring, but is there anything else? In particular, I'm thinking > about bus termination... an unremarkable PDP-11/23 board set might be > a KDF-11 + MSV11 + RXV11 + DLV11E + BDV11... that gives you (in order) > CPU, memory, disk, console SLU, and bootstrap/terminator. What's the > equivalent combo for an unremarkable H-11? I'm certainly no expert on Heath gear, or DEC gear for that matter, but I've been lucky enough to snag a couple of H11s in the last year. Here's what are in my two systems: Sytstem 1: - M7270 : KD11-HA : LSI 11/2 CPU - WHA-11-16 : 16KB memory - H-11-5 : Serial I/O - H27 : Floppy I/O - M8028 : DLV11F : Async SLU - WHA-11-16 : 16KB memroy System 2: - M7270 : KD11-HA : LSI 11/2 CPU - MSC 4601 : 16KB memory - H-11-5 : Serial I/O - H27 : Floppy I/O - H-11-5 : Serial I/O - H-11-5 : Serial I/O I haven't been able to test these out yet, though I have gotten as far as reforming the PS capacitors and running the PSs thoroughly. I have some original documentation for the H-11-5 serial boards, and comparing that with the DEC handbook I discovered that the configuration jumpers, etc. are essentially the same as the DLV11. If these two systems are at all 'ordinary' and 'unremarkable' then there you go! Hope this helps! BTW, I might have HT11 on floppies hidden in some boxes. Haven't yet gotten to doing the software inventory. - J

19 years

Tube Logic - homebrew (was Re: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22)

by tshoppa＠wmata.com

Woodelf wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: >> My last batch I got from Antique Electronic Supply, on the web at >> http://www.tubesandmore.com/ >> >> The past few years I've been a good enough customer of theirs that >> they sent me some chocolate vacuum tubes at Christmas time :-). > So what have you been buying? I only need a order every other year. Tubes, transformers, chokes. Some ham and audio stuff, but one of my latest projects does digital logic with several dozen 6SN7's. No, it's not actually a "computer" in that it's not programmable but my next thoughts are turning to that arena. The first programmable stuff I might do would end up being plugboard programming, most likely. I've recently been playing with heptodes as logic gates (and gotten many 7036's with IBM labels from AES. They're dirt cheap, and if I do it right each will replace 1 to 3 6SN7's!) Tim.

19 years

Baseline H-11 board set?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Baseline H-11 board set? > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:56:17 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Hi, all, > >I dug out my H-11 and H-27 this week, to take yet another stab at >getting the H-27 drives working. The H-11 itself works fine with >various DEC boards (including an RXV11 + RX01), but I'd like to get it >working as an H-11, not a PDP-11 in a Heath shell. > >What I haven't been able to find online is a list of the boards that >an H-11 typically shipped with. I know it used an LSI-11 (11/03) CPU, >so there's that, plus a console SLU board, probably a Heath one (don't >know the part number), the H-27 host card, and at least 16K of RAM, >I'm figuring, but is there anything else? In particular, I'm thinking >about bus termination... an unremarkable PDP-11/23 board set might be >a KDF-11 + MSV11 + RXV11 + DLV11E + BDV11... that gives you (in order) >CPU, memory, disk, console SLU, and bootstrap/terminator. What's the >equivalent combo for an unremarkable H-11? > >-ethan Barest minimum: LSI-11 16kram (or a partial populated card of 4k) SLU (dl equivilent) Additional items: FDC interface for H27 (the Heath Floppy interface has a BOOT rom) Second serial (usually printer in DEC systems) Parallel for Heath punch reader. A terminator is NOT required for LSI-11 nor a BDV(boot card) as uODT allwos for boot code if needed by hand entry. Allison

19 years

Baseline H-11 board set?

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

Hi, all, I dug out my H-11 and H-27 this week, to take yet another stab at getting the H-27 drives working. The H-11 itself works fine with various DEC boards (including an RXV11 + RX01), but I'd like to get it working as an H-11, not a PDP-11 in a Heath shell. What I haven't been able to find online is a list of the boards that an H-11 typically shipped with. I know it used an LSI-11 (11/03) CPU, so there's that, plus a console SLU board, probably a Heath one (don't know the part number), the H-27 host card, and at least 16K of RAM, I'm figuring, but is there anything else? In particular, I'm thinking about bus termination... an unremarkable PDP-11/23 board set might be a KDF-11 + MSV11 + RXV11 + DLV11E + BDV11... that gives you (in order) CPU, memory, disk, console SLU, and bootstrap/terminator. What's the equivalent combo for an unremarkable H-11? -ethan

19 years

Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22

by dm561＠torfree.net

---------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:57:57 -0700 From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> Subject: Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22 The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is similar to this: http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as 'trade secret' Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832 --------------Reply: I've used Stabilant22 for years to coat edge connectors on boards in systems exposed to heavily contaminated industrial environments. Works well; expensive, but a little goes a long way. mike

19 years

What are the really unusual or weird computers?

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> What I want to know is, what did they write the original mac os on. Lisa > And is that what they wrote the subsequent versions on? Lisa for the System until roughly the start of MPW when there was a Mac-hosted build environment. The ROM was entirely assembler and could be built on a Mac Plus with HD20 (slowly). Parts of the system converted from Pascal to C through the 80's.

19 years

list of computer architects

by brad＠heeltoe.com

I found this on accident. Thought others here might enjoy it: http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/architects.html It's not complete, but it's interesting. -brad

19 years

Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22

by aek＠bitsavers.org

The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is similar to this: http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as 'trade secret' Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832

19 years

NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements

by lynchaj＠yahoo.com

Hi, I noticed in another cctech mailing list thread about the NorthStar Horizon case cover replacements. Recently, I procured a NorthStar Horizon which is missing its original wooden case cover and I was looking to either buy an original replacement or make a new one. I did not get a lot of responses to my queries on other forums for a replacement wooden case cover so I am considering fabricating my own. Apparently, it is common for Horizons to have lost their wooden covers over time for many reasons and others have done what I am considering. Has anyone built replacement NorthStar Horizon case covers before and would be willing to build more? They do not look terribly sophisticated to build provided you have access to a table saw and the proper bits. I was planning on just copying the dimensions from another Horizon wooden case cover I already have. If anyone has a spare NorthStar Horizon wooden case cover, has built new ones, or knows how to build a replacement, I would certainly like to hear >from you. Please email me or post here. Thank you in advance. Andrew Lynch

19 years

2 pieces of Classic gear available in San Diego, California

by elf＠ucsd.edu

Hi folks, I have a couple pieces of Classic Computer gear I'm off-loading. (And there is more to come in the following weeks, so keep your eyes open :-) WHERE THESE ITEMS ARE LOCATED: San Diego, California, USA. SHIPPING: I will not ship, sorry -- local pickup only. I paid dearly for one of these items (the terminal), so I'm looking to get back a bit for it (way less than half of what it cost me, and to have it shipped to me. These terminals are heavy -- on the order of 35lbs-40lbs.) --------- Item (1) --------- Lear Siegler ADM-5 serial terminal WITH original User Manual. I would like $60.00 for this terminal and original User Manual. It DOES work! AND, this terminal DOES NOT suffer from the dreaded screen-rot (a.k.a. mold growing under the protective CRT face plate). Photos: (Note: the screen shot of some characters I took is _blurry_ because of my bad picture taking technique -- the screen produces crisp characters.) http://home.san.rr.com/instep/gear/Lear-Siegler-ADM5 --------- Item (2) --------- Amiga 1000 -- with keyboard -- mouse -- with external 3-1/2 disk drive No monitor. Worked last time I hooked it up to a monitor back in 2004. A bit of yellowing on the casing of all parts, and a bit of grunge (which can be cleaned, I'd imagine.) This is a _freebie_ -- no charge. Photos: http://home.san.rr.com/instep/gear/Amiga-1000/ Contact me OFF-LIST if interested. --ef

19 years

Computer porn book.... :-)

by stanb＠dial.pipex.com

Hi, This week's New Scientist magazine carries a report of a new book called "Core Memory" by Mark Richards & John Alderman, pub. Chronicle Books, ISBN 1780811854429. It's a collection of photographs of vintage computer equiment, inspired by a visit by the author to VCF in 2003. Anyone seen a copy? Is it worth investing in? The New Scientist article has a photo of part of the Apollo Guidance computer, the modules clearly marked "Engineering Prototype". -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!

19 years

Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers.

by Arno_1983＠gmx.de

From: Gordon JC Pearce <gordon at gjcp.net> wrote: > On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 18:21 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Nothing incredible here, I do that with my IBM model M, and put it > > on the sun to dry :oD > > *ON* the sun? Jeez, those things are tougher than I thought... > > Gordon He didn't state which model sun though...I suspect it would have to be an Enterprise-class or something, since all the smaller ones blow their hot air out on the *sides* not the top. A SPARCserver 1000 makes an effective hot-air drier (or room heater), let me tell you... but also there you'd have to put anything you want to dry *beside* it; the advantage is that no residual water is going to dribble into it! ;-) -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail

19 years

PICS: VCF E '07 Photos - PET 30th Anniv - CBM Prototypes

by billdeg＠degnanco.com

I have updated my web site. http://www.vintagecomputer.net Commodore PET 30th Anniversary Commodore Prototype Photos from VCF East 2007 Commodore Midwest Regional Staff Newsletter Archives Herb Johnson's New History of CP/M Web Site Using Toggle Switches to Analyze Memory Lobo MAX 80 Exatron Stringy Floppy Bill D

19 years

Caig ProGold / Stabilant 22

by dkelvey＠hotmail.com

>From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > >Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote: > > The wisdom of using this stuff was being discussed on another mailing > > list, so I thought I'd see what people knew about it. I suspect it is > > similar to this: > > > > http://www.stabilant.com/techt20h.htm > > > > There seems to be almost nothing on the web about what the Caig stuff > > actually is. Materials safety data sheet lists ingredients as 'trade >secret' > > > > Reasonable discussion of the Stabilant stuff in patent #4696832 > >For a lot of purposes I like Caig DeoxIT. It's definitely better >than the old "tuner cleaners" in terms of being more than a short-term >fix. There's a long catalog of Caig products and I don't think there >are as many actual applications as they have product variants :-). > >Tim. Hi I will again give a pitch for what I've used. I have a TV that the turret contact that were silver plated had warn out, leaving just brass. This was more than 10 years ago. I tried the tuner cleaners but that would only last less than a week. I then tried a little DC#4 silicon grease. To make a long story short, I'm still using that TV today although I only tend to watch once a week now. I did watch most every night for some time. Now if I could only find the intermittent in the vertical drive. I wiggle things and it comes right back. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Who's that on the Red Carpet? Play & win glamorous prizes. http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=REDCARPET_hotmailtextlink3

19 years

NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: RE: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:56:48 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Orientation of the drive with respect to the power transformer on the >Integrand was important. Changing the position by 90 degrees offered >a substantial improvement, but that wasn't an option, as the panel >was delivered pre-cut for a drive. > >On 21 Jun 2007 at 7:08, Allison wrote: > >> I have an NS* Advantage and they also apparently did it right as the drives >> behave well without steel shield plates. > >It could be that some drives are more sensitive to this sort of thing >than others--and that some monitors orient components in exactly the >wrong way. In the case of the Durango, the monitor was a small 9" >Ball Brothers OEM model and the drives were Micropolis 100 TPI >models. > >The large carriage stepper motor on the integrated printer was less >than an inch away from the B: drive. Another reason to shield >things. ;) there were a lot of design goofs out there. Actually the worst flub is the external drive setups with power supplies independent of the main box. I think there may have been three FDC cards made that suppressed WE/ if the power failed. If there was a disk in the drive.. wave byebye as it did a motor on, head load and write "1" to all drives. >Most "PC" boxes from the 1970's had some sort of basic design >problem; EMI radition being only one of them (Did the Horizon pass >VDE certification?). Most couldn't withstand a hipot attack; very >few could survive a thermal stress or shake table session without >having a component with "flying leads" dismount, or having cards pop >out of the backplane connectors. Most S100 crates could not pass VDE or a serious hipot attack. Don't know if the Horizon did or did not as it predated most of those certifications and likely was grandfathered in like many. Vibration testing, "ya gotta be kiddin", as there isn't a card restraint in 99% of the crates.. Some like the pre-B Altairs flexed so much if lifted by opposing corners the cards would pop out unless they had a one peice mother board. Allison > >Cheers, >Chuck > >

19 years

Article on The Rgister: Keyboards in dishwashers.

by woyciesjes＠sbcglobal.net

If you're curious, a Mac USB keyboard successfully cleaned in a dishwasher: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/20/keyboard_dishwash/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss

19 years

Apple Disk ][ X-Ray

by grant＠stockly.com

This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray. This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to penetrate the motor I would blow through the plastic. This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see if you can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this actual drive? The answer is in there! ; ) http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231-Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so that you would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture. Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : ) Grant

19 years

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