On Dec 19, 2007, at 6:07 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
> And in reading about the various IBM boxes, only one word comes to
> mind: "Baroque"!
I wouldn't say that- although I admit that on first looking at even the
RS/6000 (and later hearing about the AS/400 and S/3XX) was "weird".
IBMs are just a different mindset than DECs. A way of looking at it is
that IBM moved "downmarket" and DEC moved "upmarket" (similar thing
with most of the computers we see: they started out at the lower end,
and then later on the manufacturers decided to put together a big
machine for certain customers (PDP-10, SGI PowerSeries, Sun E10k, VAX
9000 ...)
IBM also had a paradigm early, and those tend to stick.
> From: Robert Nansel <bnansel at bigpond.net.au>
> 1) To build a complete functional computer, including memory, using
> no more than 256 2N2222-ish transistors (plus scads of diodes, resistors,
> etc.).
>
> 2) Use no ICs or other parts that wouldn't have been available to
> hobbyists ca. 1965.
Well, if you put no limit on the number of diodes (just 3 terminal
devices), you can go a heckuva long way using tunnel diodes or even
diacs.
Or you could use magnetic core logic, using transistors only as I/O
terminals and clock drivers.
Either of those would certainly satisfy the 1965 aspect.
Or is the restriction on "negative resistance devices"?
Cheers,
Chuck
>On 21/12/2007, Charles Fox <cfox1 at cogeco.ca> wrote:
>> A beautiful job both on the computer and the video. The
>> music fitted in with the action, and I liked the pans and zooms. A
>> computer doesn't move around much, so what else can you do? It's not
>> like shooting "dancing with the stars".
>
>:?)
>
>Well, that's certainly true!
>
>I'm improvising here, but I'd like to have seen some details of how it
>was reassembled, for instance - what new or refurbished parts were put
>in. A time-lapse of the strip-down and reassembly would have worked
>well, showing it being torn apart then rebuilt in 30sec or so. Seeing
>what sorts of connectors it has, if special cables were made up,
>showing the button being pressed for the 1st power-on, things like
>that?
>
>Just some ideas...
>
Great ideas. I think I have a much better plan for the next restoration project. I was working backwards in this project. Taking what I had available, pictures, video clips, etc. and making a video. Next time I think a plan would be helpful. ;-)
I'm thinking about doing a take-apart/put-back-together series of videos for the Sage II (half-height/full-height), Sage IV and Stride 440 and 460. Might be worth capturing for future 'restorations'.
david.
>--
>Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
>Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
>Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
>AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com
>Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508
>
Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 14:50 Tony Duell said:
> > ...
> >
> > 1) To build a complete functional computer, including memory,
>
> Are things like core-on-a-rope ROM allowrd?
Yes. Encouraged, even.
>
> > using no more than 256 2N2222-ish transistors (plus scads of diodes,
> > resistors, etc.).
>
> Do all transsitors have to be of the same flavour, or could I use TUNs
> and TUPs?
I'd never encountered the TUN & TUP TLAs before, so I looked them up:
Transistor, Universal NPN/PNP. Neat!
And any TUN or TUP will do, provided a device of comparable spec was
reasonably available to hobbyists in the mid sixties. For my first
efforts, at least, I'll be using the PN2222 in modern TO-92 plastic
packages. I'm not sure when the TO-92 package was introduced, but
there were definitely plastic package transistors available then.
SOTs are right out, though :)
> I think I'd start by reading the schematics of the HP9100. It contains
> more transistors than that, but it's still amazingly simple.
>
> Anyway, the flip-flops in that machine were JKs, using 4 transistors
> each. ...
I'll check that out. Thanks.
> > 2) Use no ICs or other parts that wouldn't have been available
> > to hobbyists ca. 1965.
>
> So that preumably means a multi-layer-PCB acting as an
> inductively-coupled ROM is out. Rats!
I recall seeing a few two-layer boards in hobbyist electronics
magazines from the '60s. Certainly you can make multilayer boards
out of single-side boards, as long as you don't need to make many
connections to the inner layers.
> > 3) Must be transportable in the boot of a mid-size sedan (i.e.
>
> Totally OT, but I find 'boot of a sedan' a somewhat odd expession.
> 'Trunk
> of a sedan' or 'boot of a saloon car' would seem more natural.
Maybe it's an Australian thing. Being an ex-pat Yank in Oz, saying
"boot" instead of "trunk" still doesn't come naturally to me, even
after more than a year here. Saloon car, though, sounds like a sure
way to get a drunk driving ticket :)
-Bobby
>
>Subject: Re: The 2N2/256-BSCP [was: Homebrew Drum Computer]
> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:26:06 +0000 (GMT)
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>> > Do all transsitors have to be of the same flavour, or could I use TUNs
>> > and TUPs?
>>
>> I'd never encountered the TUN & TUP TLAs before, so I looked them up:
>> Transistor, Universal NPN/PNP. Neat!
>
>I suspect the acronyms were invented by Elektor magazine over 30 eyars
>ago. Although they're not still sued in said magazine, theu're handy :-)
>
>There's also DUG and DUS (Diode, Universal, Germanium/Silcon).
>
>
>>
>> And any TUN or TUP will do, provided a device of comparable spec was
>> reasonably available to hobbyists in the mid sixties. For my first
>> efforts, at least, I'll be using the PN2222 in modern TO-92 plastic
Old TUNs and TUPs are in the 2n400 and 2n130x series of germainum computer
transistors. Next generation was the silicon 2n70x series and their
plastic cased counterparts.
PN2222 is a fair devices to use for that. Far better than early 60s devices
and being silicon far more stable too. Those should be easy to find for
under 4cents at the 100 peice level.
>Sure. I tened to use 2N3904/2N3906 to excess round here. I don't think
>they're quite the same spec as a TUN.TUP, but they're pretty universal in
>their own right :-).
Good for both switching and RF too. Also the metal can TO18 parts the
2n2222A and 2n2905 when you need a higher Ic and of course the 2n2219
and 2n2907 in TO5 for the next power level up. All been around a long
time and dirt cheap.
> >> packages. I'm not sure when the TO-92 package was introduced, but
>> there were definitely plastic package transistors available then.
>> SOTs are right out, though :)
The TI silicon TIS9x transistor series was popular.
>Given that there's a limit on the number of transistors, I don't see what
>advantage using SOT23s would give you. OK, you could make it smaller,
>maybe clock it faster. But the change in package wouldn't allow a totally
>different architecture. So I don't see any particular reason to ban them,
>since the same design could be built with compoents in 1960's packages.
The 2n3904/6 is about 10X or more faster than the 1960s germainium
parts and still better than late 60s parts. Most of the 1960s wer the
MADT germainium in it's odd metal (to39?) can or TO5 sized parts so
most devices like TO18 or TO92 will be smaller.
Allison
>-tony
Also just turned up the following:
Philips CDD-462 External CD-ROM drive - boxed with manuals, software, 2
interface cards but no cable.
Odd stand alone NCR tape drive unit (appears to use ordinary compact
cassettes) - from an NCR machine I got shot of LONG ago.
At least one "Telexbox" (a "Telexbox III" according to the manual).
I'm really not interested in posting any of these items, so pickup from
Birmingham please.
TTFN - Pete.
>On 21/12/2007, David W. Erhart <daviderhart at oldzonian.com> wrote:
>> I've been having some fun with a Stride 460 tower I'm restoring. Here is a
>link to the video I made of the Stride 460 restoration.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOx-ZadCGDg
>>
>> The Stride 460 is a 68000 based system from Stride Micro in the mid 1980's.
>Stride Micro was formerly Sage Computer Technology.
>>
>> Here are scans of old datasheets about the Stride 460:
>> http://www.sageandstride.org/html/stride_460.html
>
>Nifty little film. Thanks for that! I particularly enjoyed the music, too.
>
>I'd have liked perhaps a little more actual video in the video, rather
>than the endless pans and zooms, and perhaps a voiceover explaining a
>little something about the machine - but I'm not saying it wasn't
>good!
>
This was my first attempt at a YouTube video of a vintage system. I agree it could be much more informative. Good feedback for my next attempt.
Glad you enjoyed it. I wish the quality of the YouTube video was as good as what I uploaded.
david.
>--
>Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
>Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
>Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
>AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com
>Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508
>
I finally got the video of Rod Coleman's (Sage Computer co-founder) talk at the Vintage Computer Festival edited and posted to YouTube. It's about 55+ minutes long so I had to brake it into six parts. They are at:
http://www.youtube.com/user/daviderhart
I learned a lot about making/editing a video for YouTube along the way. The next should be much better. :)
Regards,
david.
http://www.sageandstride.org
I was perusing govliquidation.com, and noticed that they have
Quantity 3 Control Data 9425 drives coming up for bids.
Go to govliquidation.com, and do a search for 9425
As info. . .
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
> Another negative resistance device is the DIAC. These are
> really cheap but these are knee type curves instead of
> S type, like the TD and Lambda.
> One would have to rearrange these in a parallel configuration
> for a latch or flop, similar to the neon circuits.
> The TD has the advantage that the stable state is lower
> current, not higher current.
> The disadvantage is that that tends to increate the impedance
> of the storage net making it less stable and more susceptible
> to noise. That is why I recommend the shunt resistor to
> decrease the impedance.
I did suggest DIACs along with the tunnel diodes as being a period
device, but I think of them more akin to neon bulbs (i.e. great for
relaxation oscillators and ring counters perhaps) than TDs.
At the time of their debut, I believe that TDs offered the fastest
performance of any semiconductor active logic. DIACs (I'm thinking
of UJT speeds) would not nearly be as promising, it seems to me.
There are patents employing Gunn diodes in logic, but a pair seems to
be required. On the other hand, its relative, the IMPATT diode
seems not have seen use as the active element in logic circuits.
IMPATTs date from about 1965, so they're *barely* OT for the rules of
the project.
Cheers,
Chuck
Hello everyone,
doing a little cleanout myself, and this falls into "not really
getting to play with this properly" category. I've got an HP Omnibook
600C, it's got a 486 CPU, 8megs ram, and a 340M pcmica hard drive, and
a 640x480 screen. Works ok, except it'll reset after coming out of
sleep mode - very annoying. Also, the left button of the pop-out
mouse does not work, but is probably fixable. Original battery
(Li-Ion?) still holds a charge, will give you tens of minutes of
operation!
Runs Dave's PC100 emulator quite well (80col only of course) you could
use it as a nice small terminal! The hard drive has all the HP
drivers (AFAICT) but no windows. I've only used it with DOS.
I did use to run linux on this - years ago - but due to some
proprietary hw (in particular the PCMICA stuff) I could only boot
through DOS using "loadlin". Since linux can't access the PCMICA
slots, it's of very limited use.
I have no idea what it would cost to ship but would guess in the
$20-$30 range for most of North America. I'm located in Montreal,
Canada. It comes with the power adapter and the snazzy carrying bag!
What I'm looking for in exchange: in particular, I'm looking for a
HP48, especially if it has been opened already (and still works). I'm
planning a little HW hack and would prefer not to do significant
damage cosmetically to my 48S that is still in use and has sentimental
value to boot - it got me through engineering school!
But frankly, most hackable handheld/portable computing stuff (vintage
or not) would be of interest to me :-) (anyone got a N770 lying
around?)
Joe.
Forwarding this note about the CDC 9448 for Billy Pettit.
De
------- Forwarded Message
I did tech support onthese drives for many years, working out of OK
City.In fact, I'm still in touch with the original designer - had nunch
with him about a month ago.It's a minor point, but one surface on the
cartridge and one on the fixed pack is used for a servo reference. So
it has two servo surfaces, the only drive I know with that piece of
wierdness.Don't know if I still have a manual in the garage or not.
Definately do still have the training aides,since I had to teach it to
several OEM's support people. (There were more than 1000 configurations
of the Phoenix sold to various OEMs at the time. I was on the road 50%
of my time for a couple of years.)Can you forward this to the cctalk
list? I can read it but not post messages. I'm pretty certain it is a
problem with my ISP and not the list.Thanks,Billy
------- End of Forwarded Message
I've just had one of the disk drives in my TRS-80 Model III start to go
south on me, and before I crack the case and get down to serious diagnostic
work, I thought I'd check with the list to see if the symptoms ring a bell
with anybody.
I believe that the drive in question is a stock factory install; it's the
secondary drive in a fairly low serial-numbered Model III (in the 50,000s).
The first sign of trouble was that the drive began returning spurious "Disk
is Write-Protected" errors, which would go away upon reinserting the disk.
Now it's begun episodes of returning TRS-DOS Error 08 ("Drive Not Ready")
messages for all operations. The activity light functions normally, and the
drive hasn't made any alarming sounds. It does not spin up the disk when
it's in this state. After a while, it'll begin working again on its own.
I realize there are any number of replacement drive solutions out there, but
this is a system where I'd really like to keep the original equipment up and
running until it just can't be patched together any longer. (I can't really
explain why I'm so fond of this thing; I just am.)
Thanks in advance for any suggestions, or just things to look at first.
I've got a scope and logic analyzer I can use for diagnostics, but my
knowledge of disk systems beyond the tracks-and-sectors level is marginal.
--- JP Hindin <jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com> wrote:
> What on Earth is this?
>
> 110206772756
>
> I'm guessing its OT because of the SMD devices in
> the centre ring, but it
> is weird enough I'm willing to risk Jay's wrath to
> find out what it is.
It looks a lot like the readout electronics that might go on the
end of a high energy physics cylindrical wire chamber. Go
to google images and look for "wire chamber".
For even more science-fictiony particle physics detectors,
google for "Gammasphere". I understand it made an appearance
in the Hulk movie!
Tim.
>From the BOFH column in The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/21/bofh_trivia_quiz_200712/):
Are you an old bastard?
7. >Clunka Clunka Clunka< is the sound you would most associate with:
A. The clothes dryer
B. A washing machine with an imbalanced load
C. A flat tyre on your car
D. A tape safe door shutting repeatedly on an annoying user's foot
E. An imbalanced DEC RM05 Disk assembly moving around the computer room by itself during a head crash
> From: Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca>
> Subject: Re: The 2N2/256-BSCP [was: Homebrew Drum Computer]
>
> Another approach to discrete flip-flops can be seen at:
>
> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/misc/CasioAL1000Tech/electronics.html
>
> The stacking of multiple inputs into the basic FF structure was another
> technique from the discrete days. Helps reduce the amount of gating (and
> hence
> transistors) required, for instance when making a parallel loaded shift
> register or counter, although they were lots of other novel uses. (Some
> aspects of logic design were narrowed with the introduction of ICs for the
> sake
> of standardizing on elements that would fit in packages with limited
> connections.)
>
Very similar to an East German calculator that I am partway through reverse
engineering, a Soemtron 220.
www.soemtron.org/downloads/board10.pdfhttp://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/misc/CasioAL1000Tech/electronics.html
Looks like thees pages might help in that task thanks for the link
Mike.
> From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:21:53 -0800
> Subject: RE: The 2N2/256-BSCP [was: Homebrew Drum Computer]
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: mcguire at neurotica.com
>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:52:06 -0500
>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
>> CC:
>> Subject: Re: The 2N2/256-BSCP [was: Homebrew Drum Computer]
>>
>> On Dec 21, 2007, at 2:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
>>> As a cheaper alternative to a tunnel diode, do a search for
>>> a Lambda Diode. I used one of these circuits once to make an
>>> oscillator that ran at over 100MHz.
>>
>> Oh my, there IS an almost-equivalent-to-a-tunnel-diode circuit!
>> That looks really, really neat...I will have to play with that!
>>
>
>
> Hi
> To better approximate a tunnel diode, you'd have
> to put a resistor in parallel. I don't recommend doing
> this as it only degrades the negative resistance.
> Still, if one was to use a pair of these for a flop, it
> might be more stable since at the higher voltages,
> unlike a real TD, it completely shuts off. Without the
> shunt resistors to bypass some current the circuit
> might oscillate.
> Dwight
>
Hi
Another negative resistance device is the DIAC. These are
really cheap but these are knee type curves instead of
S type, like the TD and Lambda.
One would have to rearrange these in a parallel configuration
for a latch or flop, similar to the neon circuits.
The TD has the advantage that the stable state is lower
current, not higher current.
The disadvantage is that that tends to increate the impedance
of the storage net making it less stable and more susceptible
to noise. That is why I recommend the shunt resistor to
decrease the impedance.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007
DUT (Device Under Test) board
for an automatic board tester.
The pins around the edge are called pogo pins
and mate with the base of the tester.
You see these a lot on eBay, sellers never have a
clue what they are.
Repost since the mail server doesn't seem to like to work outside of
business hours
I've been looking at the garage, and here's a list (for those who are
waiting (you know who you are), I have the SIMMS and the Xyplex ready
to go, the post office is a bit of a nightmare now though).
(1) the definitely on-topic stuff
Sun-3 and Sun-4 VME stuff. (note-Pat gets first call, since he's
sending me some E3k stuff)
4x 501-1333 32M Sun 4/400 (/470, /490) ECC RAM (128MB total)
3x 501-1102 8MB Sun-3/200 ECC RAM (also works on 4/260 & 4/280 per FEH)
501-1167 Sun-2 SCSI and 9U->6U adaptor (external DD-50 conn.)
501-1276 FDDI adaptor
501-1539 IPI-2 adaptor
501-1206 Sun 3200 CPU, no PROM onboard.
501-1316 Sun 4300 CPU for parts
501-1203 Asynch serial multiplexor
Sun 50-pin drive lunchbox.
Assorted stuff (well, the Xylogics can go in a Sun)
Xylogics 450 Multibus SMD controller, with or without a Sun VTM adaptor.
DIGITAL Alpha Multia VX42 (233MHz, cache) with new battery.
SGI IRIS Indigo Express (GR2 XS/XS-24/XZ/Elan) boards:
ZB4 Z-Buffer
3x VM2 bitplanes
Personal IRIS PSU and TFLU skins (no cracks, door in place)
Xyplex Maxserver 4000-series terminal server, telco style outputs,
fully populated.
still many 4MB 30-pin (9-bit) parity SIMMS (80nS) (free)
one Sun USIIi 333MHz/2MB Ecache module (U5/U10)
Apple M0130 400K Macintosh floppy
DD-50 interface drive box w/ PSU.
The "pushing it" section:
Unholtz-Dickie OSC-1S sweep sine generator
Graphtec WR3200 thermal arraycorder (8-channel chart recorder)
HP 3746A selective level measuring set
HP 5061A Cesium beam frequency standard (CS beam likely needs work)
HP scope frame that I've not tested yet - no plugins, email if
interested as I'll test it later.
Part of a satellite tracking system. Figure no interest, but I should
ask before scrapping. Scientific Atlanta. On a more practical note,
these have 3U rack cabinets, aluminum, pretty nice. Not set up for
computer stuff specifically, but hackable.
Renton, WA. If anyone wants to trade, I'm looking for a decent
soldering setup, PROM/PLD programmer (need not be fancy), interesting
computer stuff (perhaps some SGI Origin 200 dual processor modules,
largish 72-pin parity SIMMS, even very off-topic but a couple of years
old stuff that could run W*****s (but won't). Don't think any of this
runs up anywhere near the value of a smallish PDP-11 or HP 2100, but
figured I'd put it out as a pipe dream), or other electronic/computer
stuff. Cash always accepted, too.
Otherwise make offer, some I might just give away.
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Does anyone have a source for the keyboard for this PC? This keyboard connects to an eight pin mini-DIN socket.
Also if anyone has pin-out information for this keyboard or this PC's monitor outputs, (B/W-5 pin DIN connector, analog RGB-DB15 connector, or digital RGB), it would be greatly appreciated.
I am also looking for pin out information for my Zenith ZVM-131 monitor purchased new in 1985 but did not have a manual with it when we received it.
Regards,
Brett
_____________________________________________________________
Need cash? Click here for low rate home equity options.
http://thirdpartyoffers.mybluelight.com/TGL2321/fc/Ioyw6i50uhFS2ETSxvvPdN8f…
Tall Corporate cab, plus five (all bad hda) RA81 drives. The corporate cab
includes an 861A power supply. This 861 has a power cable half the size of
my arm coming out of it.
The cab was sold with four RA81's in it, so it has all the correct DEC rack
hardware & cable management pieces for all the SDI cables (several of the
bolt on SDI in/out modules), the power sequencing connectors for in/out of
the rack at the bottom, etc. It also has a metric buttload of SDI cables and
power sequencing cables. All headed for the skip unless someone is willing
to pay shipping for any of it. It will be gone within 24 hours.
I don't want to ship dead drives or anything, but I'm willing to unbolt any
small rackmount hardware or brackets people may want.
Jay
On Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 17:01 Dave McGuire wrote:
> > Well, if you put no limit on the number of diodes (just 3 terminal
> > devices), you can go a heckuva long way using tunnel diodes or even
> > diacs.
>
> I'd love to find a huge stash of a few thousand new-old-stock
> tunnel
> diodes. :-(
>
> -Dave
Me, too! I've never seen tunnel diodes going for less than $50 each,
so if I had a few thousand I'd sell most of 'em for $40 : )
-Bobby
>
>
>Well, I have the Exatron Stingy Floppy adverts on the back of (and
>inside?) several issues of 80 Microcomputing which I could attempt to
>photograph with my (cheap) webcam, if anyone is interested?
>
>No newsletters though :(
>
I have some of these materials if anyone is interested in PDF
scans. Contact me directly and specify which issue of 80 Microcomputing
and/or Newsletter (I have only the first @LOAD, the newsletter's name). I
am presently working on a new drive belt replacement. I have found a
vendor to make the belts and hope to get them in early January. It seems
that every stringy floppy that I have come upon has a dried-up drive belt,
making the drives useless. Before my last belt died, I was able to take a
few pictures of a successful load:
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/tandy/trs80_1/exatron_stringy_floppy/
Bill