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101090 discussions

Free (or price of shipping) Stuff -- Part 1

by btt＠hughes.net

I would be inetersted in all the apple iic stuff, and the apple joystick a2m2012. I live in Ohio, 45107. Do you still have these items? Brian Ties

17 years, 11 months

Minimal CP-M SBC design

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:09:45 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Sun, 2008-05-11 at 16:25 -0400, Allison wrote: > >> Bob's SBC6120 is as close or better than a real 8e for playing with code. >> >> That s the point too. Emulation you just cant pay with wires or add >> a parallel port. > >Aha, I disagree. You can't get at the innards of the 6120 at all, >because it's a chip. If you want to get at the innards of an emulator >then you can, although how accurately the emulator models the logic of >the -8 might be an issue (my emulator doesn't model it at all, but >largely does its own thing). True, you can carry it with one hand and it does run os/8 rather than os/278. If I want to be in the innards of a CPU I hav e a real pdp-8 and a decent scope. I've yet to see a emulator that can let me see the r/m/w cycles of core on the scope. But I can add ports to a SB6120. If of course if you program a large CPLD or FPGA you can have your software verion of the chip and you can even get at the innards with your VHDL complier. No different from the 6120 as hardware but now you can play in software. Neither is wrong but if your designing a board that plug into a real PDP-8 and is software interactive then for all cases if (software emulation, parallel port kluge) sb6120, FPGA) our results will be "simulation" and at best does not have the feel, or actual dynamics of the electronic issues( termination, bus ringing, grounding and so on). >Adding a parallel port is easy - you've got one on your PC. Work out >what you want to talk to the parallel port, and graft on a bit of code >to do it. Dead easy. Sorry doesn't work when you need 12 bits, or Data break and the hardware is very code interactive. >Need more ports, or a smart-ish peripheral? Get one of those >microcontroller boards with a USB device port and a bunch of IO lines. >The Arduino Diecimila looks pretty good for this, although having more >than one UART would be nice. The UART talks to a generic USB-to-Serial >chip (FTDI, for those interested) and you've got an assortment of >digital IO, analogue input and PWM lines to play with, and a bunch of >timers and things. It presents to the PC as a serial port, and you >program it in C. I reckon with one of them and a bit of interfacing >hardware (level shifters and latches, mainly) I could drive most PDP-8 >peripherals (if I had any). If I wanted to build a PC for the task I'd use one. The original goal was to emulate or simulate in software the unique hardware for the pupose of writing new code that would run on the real (z80 powered) thing with that unique hardware. If I want to run an abstraction and I do on occasion then many of the sims are great for that. Most sims allow for good many of the available "peripherals" and thats fine if your running real hardware the same way or wishing you could. Allison

17 years, 11 months

Minimal CP-M SBC design

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minimal CP-M SBC design > From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at usap.gov> > Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:01:31 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Cc: General at icecube.southpole.usap.gov, > On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org> > >On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 08:23:13AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Well I wasn't talking about a diskless system...only one in which >> CP/M itself was in ROM. > >I personally find the idea intriguing, and I am about to cobble up >a system from (nearly) scratch. I used Kaypros and the like, back >in the day, and really won't miss floppies (not that there's an FDC >chip within 3000 miles I could slap on this thing, anyway). > >I don't mind the idea of stuffing "the OS" in ROM vs loading off >of removable media since I doubt I'll want to upgrade. I want to >run a few CP/M-80 programs, and that's about it. NOte It's not OS in rom, it's Rom as floppy replacement. CP/M load process for floppy is a booter load system tracks to ram.. The rom appaorach is booter loads system from ROM to ram. and once in ram you can overlay, alter, patch, extend as desired. >> >I still don't have the hang of this "vintage" thing yet, probably >> >because I'm vintage myself. Please forgive my density... >> >> I often suffer from the same problem. I think very few of us, even >> here, actually used stuff like CP/M and PDP-11s when they were >> considered current technology. > >I was a kid when S-100 machines were "in", but, as came up earlier >in this thread, I did hit the Osborne/Kaypro CP/M era. When I was an adult S100 was introduced. >I consider myself quite fortunate that I've gotten to program PDP-11s >on two different jobs right at the tail end of their heyday (I was 18-20 >at the time). I also consider myself fortunate that I was working at >a place that supported VAX/BSD customers in addition to our VAX/VMS >customers, so I was able to pick up some UNIX skills nearly 25 years >ago. When folks bandy about "All the World's a VAX", it really means >something to me (I learned C from K&R on an 11/750 running 4.1BSD, so >I _know_ how easy it is to write non-portable code). > >I do run things inemulation, but I also enjoy running things on real >iron. Right now, I have a modern Elf within reach, as well as an >SBC6120. The SBC6120 boots off of CF... no floppies, no 1/3 HP rotating >media, but there's still a real 12-bit processor on the board. I don't >consider that emulation in the slightest, even if my "disks" don't rotate. >OTOH, I also have, at home, "real" PDP-8s with real DEC-made disks; they >just aren't so portable as to be worth hauling down here. Same goes for >a CP/M machine - I'm working on something smaller than a princess phone. >Quite portable compared to an S-100 or an Osborne. Bob's SBC6120 is as close or better than a real 8e for playing with code. That s the point too. Emulation you just cant pay with wires or add a parallel port. >Just my take on why I mix classic CPUs with modern peripherals... runs >the original software, weighs a lot less. ;) and it can be faster too. A 64K z80 system that has a 32mb CF will do everthing the same as my S100 create with a Quantum D540(32mb) hard disk only it cant cause back pain, it's about as fast and the CF based machine can run on small batteries where the S100 crate can suck up a APS 1000VA UPS in short order (that has two 12V 7AH gell cells or ~168WH of power). Allison >-ethan > >-- >Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-May-2008 at 12:40 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.6 F (-62.0 C) Windchill -108.3 F (-77.9 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 5.8 kts Grid 42 Barometer 682.8 mb (10523 ft) > >Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html

17 years, 11 months

book on PAL/GAL programming?

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> I'm not sure what's out there in the way of books that directly cover > PALASM. It's mostly covered in the data books and app notes. The last version was PALASM 4 V1.5. If you google for "PALASM 4 Ver 1.5 software manual" you'll find the docs on it. http://jason.sdsu.edu/minc/pls_man/e_palasm.pdf looks reasonable as well. PALASM is REALLY dumb. It essentially works at the fuse level.

17 years, 11 months

book on PAL/GAL programming?

by lynchaj＠yahoo.com

Hi, I am interested in PAL / GAL programming and would like to buy a book on the subject. Does anyone have any recommendation(s)? Alternatively, there may be websites with PAL / GAL programming how to guides. Those would be useful too. I have a rough idea using PALASM but it has been a long time since I have used anything like it. The reason is as my neo vintage SBC design is nearing completion and I will be ordering the PCBs soon, however, I am keeping an eye out to the next version. I am severely space limited with the Eurocard format (160x100mm) and I am investigating potential PAL/GAL implementation to free some board space. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks in advance. Andrew Lynch

17 years, 11 months

Semi-annual plea: Corvus <--> Xerox 820 Software

by snhirsch＠gmail.com

All, I have all the pieces here to setup a Xerox 820 board with my Corvus flat-cable drive except for the driver software. Does anyone have this or have a notion of who might have it? The interface box is rarer than hen's teeth, but I've come up with two of them. Steve --

17 years, 11 months

Interconnecting classic computers

by dm561＠torfree.net

-------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:27:13 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Interconnecting classic computers > > Has anybody ever tried interfacing a modem to a cordless phone handset? Are cordless phones truely full-duplex, or are they more like loudspeaking phones whee a local voice input disables the speaker output? That is not a problem for voice, of course, but it is for full-duplex modems. > It shouldn't be too hard to use a C/L phone as the wireless link between two > modems. > > I believe Tony also has a NetCommander which would let him select which Actually I have 3 of them. One is the 16 port model (with 16 RS232 ports), the others are the fixed-configuration 6 RS232/4 Centronics models. But they do not solce the cabling problem. Nor do they have enough ports for all my classics... -tony -----------Reply: Well, that gives you 25 ports; how many more do ya need? At one point we had 4 computer ports feeding more than 200 terminals over a single connection. Alternately, it would be trivial to build a remotely controlled one-to-many port selector out of relays or solid state parts, and you could use the NetCommander just for the units that need baud rate conversion. Of course the NCs don't solve the cabling problem, that's why I mentioned the cordless phone. But unless you want to manually plug the desired system in every time or buy/make separate connecting links for every system, you'd need some way of concentrating the systems into one connecting link. Obviously not a solution you'd approve of, but two old laptops with RS-232 and wireless cards would easily solve the connection problem. Of course we usually prefer lengthy discussions here instead of simple solutions... mike

17 years, 11 months

Osborne OCC1 problem

by feldman.r＠comcast.net

I found the O1 Technical Ref Manual PDF. It's on Dave Dunfield's site at http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/osborne/index.htm. The link is at the bottom of the page. Bob

17 years, 11 months

Data sheet distribution

by cclist＠sydex.com

Out of curiosity, I went to torrentz.com and searched on "datasheet". A couple of hits. One is a collection of datahseets from Elektor that I haven't looked at (I'm on the wrong side of the pond to know much about Elektor). About 230MB worth. The other is a melange of various datasheets. Lots of op-amps, some digital ICs, transistors and other bits and pieces. Rev. C of the Kaypro service manual (Bitsavers has Rev. E). Information on a Techtran diskette drive unit, some stuff on time standards. The gem, IMOHO, is a two-file collection of Western Electric datasheets for transistors, ICs, diodes and LEDs. Most look to be from about 1976 or earlier. It might be very useful to someone who needs to know, for example, that the 18 pin DIP 146D is an integrated wait state generator for the Bellmac-8 processor. Unfortunately, these PDFs aren't indexed beyond general categories, just sort of mixed all together. Cheers, Chuck

17 years, 11 months

Osborne OCC1 problem

by feldman.r＠comcast.net

>Message: 10 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:22:39 -0400 >From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net> >Subject: Re: Osborne OCC1 problem <snip> >I wonder if anybody ever sold anything that plugged in there? <snip> There were adaptors for external monitors. The one I had was "Exmon" brand. Bob

17 years, 11 months

Osborne OCC1 problem

by feldman.r＠comcast.net

>Message: 1 >Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 09:13:42 +0100 >From: "Ade Vickers" <javickers at solutionengineers.com> >Subject: RE: Osborne OCC1 problem >Hi chaps, >This is a kind of amalgamated response to all who have responded; thanks! <snip> Hi, For the video pinouts, take a look at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-July/176233.html. To repeat part of that thread, the signals come from the bottom of the edge connector on the front panel and the shunt carries them to the top, where they go to a single inline connector that connects to the monitor. Looking at the edge connector from the front (numbered right to left, odd on top, even on the bottom), the signals are: 2 Ground 4 Brightness High 6 Brightness Low 8 Brightness Arm 10 Ground 12 Horizontal sync 14 +12V 16 Video out 18 Vertical sync 20 Ground The shunt just connects the top contact to its mate on the bottom: 1 to 2, 3 to 4, etc. There is/was a pdf of the Osborne 1 Technical Reference manual online. I don't have a link handy, but it has been posted before, so just search the archives. Bob

17 years, 11 months

mag tape usage ( was bandwidth)

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

On 15 May, 2008, at 23:04, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > PS: Also how may on this list still use mag tape > with the vintage equipment? I do, but my Ampex drives use analogue tape type spools rather than the later 'industry standard' ones. They are half inch but ten track not 7 or 9 and because of the smaller hole, with normal thickness tape they got 3200 feet on a spool rather than 2400 feet. The machine optionally used one inch or quarter inch analogue spools on different decks, and the one inch transports ran at 150 inches per second. Roger Holmes

17 years, 11 months

IBM DisplayWriter DOS

by olinick＠palmbeach.k12.fl.us

Hi, just read your message about the Displaywriter. What I did to exchange files was to send the information via modem on my Displaywtier to my laptop's modem. It worked extremely well. Or I uploaded files to Compuserve and then downloaded them. I would love to own Displaywriter again. ----------------------------------------- Under Florida law, e-mail addresses are public records. If you do not want your e-mail address released in response to a public records request, do not send electronic mail to this entity. Instead, contact this office by phone or in writing.

17 years, 11 months

Hosting data book scans (was Re: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs)

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> My preference for distributing large trees of files is > rsync, since it's designed for that, and it lets you efficiently > update an existing local copy with as little data transferred as > possible -- which is great for things like Bitsavers that are > constantly being added to. Which is working quite well.. > so it certainly sounds like a worthwhile project to me. "Voltsavers" The issue isn't who hosts it, but the bandwidth issues. There are hundreds of data books, and they are running about 100mb each when scanned. It is impractical for me to burst them into smaller chunks due to the time it would take to do it. I've had little luck getting people to work on postprocessing the scans in the past. Currently, about 1/3 of everything I have scanned is on bitsavers. It takes about a week to process what I can scan in a day. On an average scanning day I can scan 5-10 thousand pages. I've been scanning now for over 9 years (obviously, not every day).. Because of the thinness of the paper used, a box of data books is over 10k pages. This should give you an idea of the magnitude of work involved in scanning a large databook collection..

17 years, 11 months

DEC8235 and MM57109N -- warning

by tiggerlasv＠aim.com

Be careful when using broker websites for semiconductors. In my search for some SMC UARTS, I've come across some sites that appear to have "open registration" for posting inventories. (i.e., anyone can supply an inventory list, and an e-mail address, and they'll show up on the vendor search.) (Recently digchip dot com ) After submitting a few RFQ's, I received replies from a number of different "companies" (read: individuals) that were highly suspect. For example: Generic e-mail addresses. References to what are supposed to be their "corporate" website, but are in fact unrelated. Payment terms "T/T" (wire transfer) or Western Union. I also received nearly identical quotes, from two presumeably different companies. While this is certainly possible, the verbage used was almost exact. As with any other transaction. . . . "buyer beware". As info. . . . T

17 years, 11 months

DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs

by cclist＠sydex.com

> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:54:34 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Eric Smith" > Bittorrent doesn't help at all for things that only a few (less than > about five) people are trying to download at the same time. FTP is > generally *more* efficient than bittorrent for that. Agreed. When you have a small community who have interest in a BT file and most of the interested people have picked it up already, you can grow whiskers waiting for a seed to emerge. I've seen some rather pitiful begging on the 'net for a seed for such-and-such a file. Sometimes you do find a seed, but he's got his upload throttled down to something like 3Kb/second. It'd be faster to get the file via Aldis lamp. The idea behind BT is utilizing the power of a mob, er "swarm". Three isn't a swarm. Cheers, Chuck

17 years, 11 months

Leakproof cells, was: Osborne OCC1 problem

by cclist＠sydex.com

> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:40:28 +0100 > From: "Ade Vickers" > Or, of course, I could bodge my universal power supply into powering the > multimeter...... (don't dare suggest buying a battery! ;)) This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask the list. I've got some old gear that take single D- or C-sized carbon-zinc cells, usually as some sort of minimal-current supply. For example, my VTVM uses one for its resistance function. (Sometimes a high- impedance meter with a real needle is hard to beat). I don't keep cells in this old stuff because I use it only occasionally. Is there such a thing as a long-life leakproof battery that I can use? Silver-zinc perhaps? Thanks, Chuck

17 years, 11 months

Dayton Hamvention

by marvin＠west.net

I finally got my selling spot this afternoon after about a 2 hour wait in line (3303.) I must have missed any other selling spots except for Patricks, but I'll check and drop by :). I have nothing classic computer related this year, but I also should get a chance to look around!!!

17 years, 11 months

Funny Tek 2445 scope problem

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On Thu, May 15, 2008 2:07 pm, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> > Case solved (I think). It seems to matter where I ground the >> > probe. I >> > pulled all of the boards out of the system, no change. I then >> > grounded the >> > probe to the middle finger of the voltage regulator on the board >> > and the >> > sine wave went away. >> >> The chassis may not be at digital ground. >> >> Also watch out for the middle lead of three-terminal (78xx/79xx) >> voltage regulators...it's not unheard of to bring them up above >> ground a bit with a voltage divider to make them operate at different >> voltages. > > The _middle_ lead is not ground on the 79xx parts! You're correct of course; I should've said "ground" lead. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

17 years, 11 months

DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs

by djg＠pdp8.net

>Does anybody know if the DEC8235 is the same as the National DM8235? > Doesn't look likely. The DM8230 isn't the same as the Signetics 8230. The DEC82xx parts seem to be the Signetics 82xx parts. >Mouser claims to be able to order NTE8235, but there's no order pending or >delivery date. ($9.09 each.) > http://www.rselectronics.com/ seems to claim stock. This company search says they have non NTE parts. I used them in 1999 to get a part and the minimum order then was $50. http://www.hrent.com/inv.htm Who knows what has changed since then, the search is using an outside site. They also list the MM57109N from another message. Post back if you do use them.

17 years, 11 months

DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs

by dm561＠torfree.net

---------Original Message: From: Dan Roganti <ragooman at comcast.net> Subject: Re: DEC8235 and MM57109N ICs Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Does anyone have the datasheet for an MM57109? How hard would it be to > make a replacement, either with an FPGA or a microcontroller or > something? > I've had no luck whatsoever in finding a datasheet for this part. I've been searching online for a long time too. I only have the programming info from old projects. But I too like to get the complete datasheet to check everything. I'm hoping the folks at Area51esg would have a lead on this. =Dan ---------Reply: Well, considering the MM57109 is a microprocessor, it's a little more than just a data_sheet_ unless you only want the pinout & logic diagram. It's one of the COPS family and should be in any NSC MOS databook of the time; if you can't find it and Area51esg can't supply it, contact me off-list and I'll try to find time to scan it, abt. 24 pages. mike

17 years, 11 months

Dayton Hamfest

by pat＠computer-refuge.org

... is tomorrow! Is anyone planning on going this year? I'll be there again, in spaces 3435/3436, and have a bunch of fun old electronic and computer crap (including a few nice, fun, big UNIX boxes). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org

17 years, 11 months

Funny Tek 2445 scope problem

by cclist＠sydex.com

On 15 May 2008 at 12:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:48:42 -0400 > From: Allison > case ground may not be circuit ground... make sure the the probe ground > is actually circuit ground. > > Many machines made the case RF ground and seperate from teh DC ground > using capactiors (true for altair, NS* horizon, CCS, Compupro that I > have). That's my guess also. That 70v 60Hz signal probably doesn't represent anything more than stray AC pickup by the case. Find the real signal ground. A couple of weeks ago, I was working on a friend's old Roland analog synthesizer and discovered that there were *two* grounds on the thing- -digital and analog. And they weren't the same. Neither one corresponded to case ground or even the sleeve on the audio output jacks. Fortunately, both grounds had labeled TPs on the PCBs. Cheers, Chuck

17 years, 11 months

Looking for a COMPATICARD II 8 BIT

by cclist＠sydex.com

> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:46:21 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > off the cuff, if you're looking for one so you can > interface an 8" drive to a pc, you might want to look > at Dave Dunfield's info (don't ask me the url, just > google "Dave's old computers" and you'll find it > lickety-split). Unlikely every 8" drive will work, but > many will I presume. The CC II is a different beast from the CC IV and the generic PC-AT style controller, using a plain-Jane uPD 765A with a different convention for switching densities. It's basically the CCI without the external drive connector (same PCB, just no connector). 22DISK, Anadisk etc. support this controller during configuration. If the OP wants to contact me off-list, I think I may have a CCII that I'm willing to part with. Cheers, Chuck

17 years, 11 months

[personal] RE: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Address Contents 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 010 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 010 000 000 000 000 -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hatch Sent: 14 May 2008 09:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: [personal] RE: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed 0-24 thats 0-16 Dec. Don't know the 8's but that would suggest to me that 4 bits (1 chips worth) are stuck somewhere leading to some address decoding ?. Does it repeat higher up the addresses ?. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Smallwood" <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [personal] RE: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed > Now that's interesting.. > > I have a PDP-8/e as well. I can't store in locations 000 000 000 000 to > 000 000 011 000 (0 - 24 Dec) > Above is OK > > > If somebody has an answer to your problem. They might know something > about mune. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G. Thomas > Sent: 09 May 2008 16:36 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-8E diagnostic help needed > > Hi, > > I've got a PDP-8E which I've almost got working. > > Can anyone here help me figure out this remaining problem? > > As I examine memory, the address lights count up to 01111, then go back > to 00000, instead of 10000. I can manually enter an address higher than > 1111, but the 10000 and 100000 bits don't stick -- they go low, as soon > as I hit the examine switch to step to the next memory location. > > I can manually load an address 1000000 or 10000000, and hit examine to > see 1000001, 1000010, 1000011, etc..., but once I reach 1001111, it's > back to 1000000. > > It was recommended to me that it might be the carry between E52 and E37, > or the E38 input multiplexer for bit 7 (on M8300), so last night I > socketed and replaced all three of those ICs, but I still see the same > symptoms. > > I have extender boards, so can access M8300 during operation. I measured > the carry line between E52 and E37 go low when I reach 1111, but the > light for line 10000 doesn't light on the front panel on the next > address, and I see the data from memory location 0000, 0001, etc. > repeated, displayed as I continue to step through memory locations, as > described above. > > Of course, if someone has a spare M8300 they would be willing to sell > me, that's another option. > > Mark > > > -- > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) > voice: 215-591-3695 > http://mail-cleaner.com/ > > > > >

17 years, 11 months

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