>Well, obviously you use the right tools :-). Attacking any
computer board
>with a sheet-metal iron is going to do some damage. But I don't
>understand why a PC motherboard is any more fragile than (say)
a board
>from a minicomputer, workstation, or whatever.
Well, for one thing old boards used .1 inch traces, now with
surface mount it's .05 or .025. I don;t know about you, but my
hand (wasted from advanced age and hard living) isn't steady
enough to solder a surface mount IC.
Jack Peacock
Personally, I *love* IE4.
However, the point of this message is to point out that you can make sure
all your email is in plain text format by choosing Tools/Options/Send/Plain
Text
Its pretty simple, really.
Cheers
A
>I'm almost certain that IE4/outlook express HTMLizes email you send from
it.
>there is a way to turn it off, but i dont remember how one does it. i'm
>staying far away from IE4 myself!
On Mar 13, 21:28, SUPRDAVE wrote:
> with all this talk of soldering and desoldering, is it possible for a layman
> to do this with just a regular low wattage soldering iron? any tips from the
> pros?
Sure, with a little care and practice, but don't use a really low-power iron.
Many of them don't have much thermal storage (some people call it thermal
inertia) which means that when you place it on the joint, the heat flows out of
the tip (to be shared with the joint) and it all cools down. It takes a while
for the element to raise the temperature above the solder liquidus point again,
and in the meantime that heat is travelling to all the places you don't want.
Far better to use a reasonable wattage temperature-controlled iron (mine is
50W), which heats the joint up fast, so you can remove the iron fairly quickly.
For the same reason, don't use *too* fine a bit.
For larger stuff, I use a 120W Weller soldering gun which I bought in the
heyday of valves (vacuum tubes, for you colonists). At the University, we have
a Steinel temperature-controlled hot-air gun which chucks out lots of air at up
to 400C, great for surface mount removals (and refitting/reflow, with care).
There's a proper SMD station as well, but only one person is allowed near
that. However, I confess I'm a member of the blowtorch club at at home. I can
confirm that it's possible to remove DIL and SIMM sockets that way, as well as
ICs!
Personally, I use a fairly large piston-type desolder sucker. I hate braid -
although it's good for removing bridges on SMDs - and hate those awkward
desolder bulbs. I once had a vacuum desoldering iron, but it was always
getting clogged...
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
On Mar 14, 12:16, Kip Crosby wrote:
> >I don't think the sender INTENDS to send out HTML. If you really look
> >close at such messages, you will see an actual message....
Sure, but it's no less irritating. I've stopped reading most of them. Once or
twice I've replied with suggestions to fix it; sometimes the sender has even
fixed it :-)
> That's it. MIME-enabled clients read the MIME part; MSIE4 reads the HTML
> part; MS-Outlook and Outlook Express I _think_ offer the choice between the
> two. Microsoft no longer considers flat-ASCII mail to be an important
> fraction of the traffic.
Unfortunately, quite a lot of *mail* readers can't handle that, especially the
"multipart/alternative" header. Zmail stubbornly refuses to display either
part, so I resort to /usr/sbin/Mail or /usr/bsd/mail if it's important. As far
as I'm concerned, MIME is fine, but HTML has no business in email.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Hi,
I just picked up an Apple IIGS without the keyboard.
Can I use a MAC keyboard on it?
Also it was connected to an Apple IIe via a super serial port on the GS and
an I/O controller on the IIe side. Is that some sort of "Networking"? There
was no disk drive attached to the IIe.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Francois
Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon
And I just learned that it was safe to tuch motherboard/cards when your
computers on! (BTW, any one know aout DIMM stuff?)
Ciao,
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 14, 1998 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)
>
><>FYI in the old days when people would salvage chips of old unmarked card
><>a popular way to remove them was a propane torch and pliers!
><
><Old days??? I recovered chips using this method a few months ago...
>
>Same here but some of the kids may never have heard of a propane torch!
>
><Cool! If one is careful, there is more than just chips that can be
><recovered using this method -- at one point in time I could recover usabl
><chip sockets (even some 40-pinners) that I'm still using for other
><projects, and I now have a *boatload* of 8-switch DIP switch packages fo
><my hardware playing...
>
>Also SIP resistor packs, caps and even SMT devices.
>
>I've also been known to use gas stoves and even electric stoves. I've
>found the electic stoves with care can be used to pull chips with no
>board damage.
>
>Allison
>
>Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:39:33 -0600 (CST)
Why do you say this? I found an AIWA all-in-one thing (radio,tape,
phono,cd) in the trash a few years ago, and it has worked fine. Does
it damage CDs or something?
>
>I have [music] CD's going back to the mid-80's. They all work fine.
>(P.S., never buy an Aiwa CD player.)
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
O-
>
>Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
>roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen
know."
>Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
>San Francisco, California
http://www.sinasohn.com/
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Curretly using IE4, I've got to say that MS does have some innovation left.
The problem is that it comes TOO LATE to be useful. However, seeing as how
the current version of Netscape and IE use HTML emails, and how an aditional
1 million people support it (with Hotmail), and how, when you get down to
it, it does increase functionality, it's going to be a standard. IE4 does
send it by default, but, you can change that by clicking on Format -> Plain
Text. If the e-mail that you wish to respond to's in plain text, that's
what it'll send. The problem is that if M$ supports it, the WHOLE WORLD
suddenly has to all have HTML-ized e-mail readers. It's nice if you have
it, but a pain in the A** if you don't.
Ciao,
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: SUPRDAVE <SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, March 15, 1998 5:05 AM
Subject: Re: What's with the raw HTML?
>I'm almost certain that IE4/outlook express HTMLizes email you send from
it.
>there is a way to turn it off, but i dont remember how one does it. i'm
>staying far away from IE4 myself!
>
>david
>
>In a message dated 98-03-14 15:20:25 EST, you write:
>
><< That's it. MIME-enabled clients read the MIME part; MSIE4 reads the
HTML
> part; MS-Outlook and Outlook Express I _think_ offer the choice between
the
> two. Microsoft no longer considers flat-ASCII mail to be an important
> fraction of the traffic.
>
> Kip Crosby >>
I'm almost certain that IE4/outlook express HTMLizes email you send from it.
there is a way to turn it off, but i dont remember how one does it. i'm
staying far away from IE4 myself!
david
In a message dated 98-03-14 15:20:25 EST, you write:
<< That's it. MIME-enabled clients read the MIME part; MSIE4 reads the HTML
part; MS-Outlook and Outlook Express I _think_ offer the choice between the
two. Microsoft no longer considers flat-ASCII mail to be an important
fraction of the traffic.
Kip Crosby >>
Well, without changing the blower motor or fuses, I plugged in my newly
rewired 4967 hard drive. I turned it on, the power supply made that
electrical buzzing noise that big PS's do(and a 220v motor in the
background running at half speed), then the drive started to spin up. Is
there a miniaturized jet plane in there? ;-) Anyways, it starts up(power
light comes on), and then after about 10-15 seconds there is a clunk sound
and the drive kinda shuts down until it tries again about 20 seconds
later(or maybe because I turned on the CPU). I'm not quite sure what ti
think. I haven't bothered taking it apart yet(too much work to get the
PS/controller unit off). Anyone have any ideas, or know someone who would?
---------------------------------------------------------------
| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek |
| OrHam(a)qth.net list admin Call sign coming soon!
|
---------------------------------------------------------------
There are plenty of free and shareware BBS programs on the 'net.
Check out www.cdrom.com (SimTel) and www.filelibrary.com (Channel 1)
for stuff. Channel 1 needs you to register, by the way. Here is a
question for you all: How is it done that several people can dial up
a BBS at the same number and all connect?
>Hello. A while back, I was asking about BBS stuff. Does anyone have a
BBS
>program (prefferably color, etc., possibly HTML-style), with
server/client
>software that they could give me? (I could pay for software, shipping,
>etc.)
> Thanks,
>
>Tim D. Hotze
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I recently aquired 3 of these tape drives and have been trying to locate any information on them to see if they are any good/worth useing.
I was surfing the web and saw some Email messages you sent concerning these tape drives. Could you share any information you have? I would prove to be most helpful to me.
Thank You
Dennis Magnan
dmagnan(a)hotmail.com
anthony clifton:
:Er...most ISPs (except the really big guys where all bets are off)
really big guys...? well, aside from the hourlies, who would that be?
aside from aol and compuserve (which don't sell internet access, they
sell a nice new toy) the largest over here is really demon internet,
with 90k users. what about over there? are there very big companies
there that aren't the "pretend" ones?
(we're assuming you meant compushite and arseholes online in your
original comment, however.)
our experience of ISPs is generally good, except that they all seem to
have bandwidth problems. maybe that's because stuck as we are right
between america and europe, we're in the middle of nowhere. ;> ;>
anyway, this is way off-topic, so to bring it back on:
what machine did the first tcp implementation pootle along on? also
what's the smallest machine tcp has lived on so far?
-- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive
I have just got a couple of VT320s and connected one to my MicroVAX II
instead of the Wyse 50 that came with it. I see more messages during
the boot process now, including a menu at the start asking me what
language to use.
When I am using Ultrix and running vi how do I get back from edit to
command mode - I can't find an Esc key on the VT320?
TIA
Pete
I finally finished this version of the web page, it now has pictures of all
of the expansion cards I have, taken with a Mavica FD-7 digital camera...
That is one great camera! Too bad I don't own my own, I had to borrow
one(actually, I took the cards to the camera)... The main page is
completely different, I made very few modifications to the links, and
added/deleted a few things from the computer page.
Go check it out at http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html.
---------------------------------------------------------------
| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek |
| OrHam(a)qth.net list admin Call sign coming soon!
|
---------------------------------------------------------------
<>FYI in the old days when people would salvage chips of old unmarked card
<>a popular way to remove them was a propane torch and pliers!
<
<Old days??? I recovered chips using this method a few months ago...
Same here but some of the kids may never have heard of a propane torch!
<Cool! If one is careful, there is more than just chips that can be
<recovered using this method -- at one point in time I could recover usabl
<chip sockets (even some 40-pinners) that I'm still using for other
<projects, and I now have a *boatload* of 8-switch DIP switch packages fo
<my hardware playing...
Also SIP resistor packs, caps and even SMT devices.
I've also been known to use gas stoves and even electric stoves. I've
found the electic stoves with care can be used to pull chips with no
board damage.
Allison
Yesterday, I saw three interesting machines but I didn't get them
because A) I was short on cash and B) I'm really running out of room
around here and trying not to buy everything I see... I'm not at all
familiar with any of these, but if I were to go back and possibly get
one of them, I'd like some comments on them to help me decide:
- Amstrad PCW 8256 (z80/cpm system?)
- Sanyo MBC 550 (straight PC clone?)
- Olivetti EVT300 (I may have botched the part number from faulty
memory, it's a stylish black metal PC-ish box with one 3.5"
floppy--related to AT&T 6300?)
All were priced in the 10-15 dollar range. Which, if any, would you
buy?
--
mor(a)crl.com
http://www.crl.com/~mor/
At 12:23 3/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I don't think the sender INTENDS to send out HTML. If you really look
>close at such messages, you will see an actual message....
>buried amongst the tags....which, when read on a client like Eudora or
Netscape,
>look fairly normal....it
>contains a plaintext version of the message AND the HTML-ified version,
>which is what your plaintext email reader is seeing while Eudora and
>Netscape can pick out the plaintext version.
That's it. MIME-enabled clients read the MIME part; MSIE4 reads the HTML
part; MS-Outlook and Outlook Express I _think_ offer the choice between the
two. Microsoft no longer considers flat-ASCII mail to be an important
fraction of the traffic.
__________________________________________
Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org
http://www.chac.org/index.html
Computer History Association of California
I convinced the 5363 to give me Service mode. (Diddled with plugs behind
the keyswitch until it let me try IPLing.). The IPL fails, someone has
nuked these harddisks. (Erased, not destroyed). So, I have the whole
set of SSP, RPG, and Utilities disks, how do I do a reload? I have the directions
for doing this on a 5360, but not 5363. I'm at the microcode loading stage,
but where the 5360 has 1 disk for microcode, I have 2. I can finish loading
the 1st disk, but I can't get it to load the second - I don't know how.
Anyone know?
-------
Could be, but I'm also asking for CLASIC stuff. ;-)
I'll check, but seeing as how batelco.com.bh (the ONLY Bahrain ISP...
owned by the gov't.) isn't really up to date.... thanks anyway.
Ciao,
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 14, 1998 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: BBS Server/Clinet Software
>> Hello. A while back, I was asking about BBS stuff. Does anyone have a
BBS
>> program (prefferably color, etc., possibly HTML-style), with
server/client
>> software that they could give me? (I could pay for software, shipping,
>> etc.)
>
>There's an entire "alt.bbs.*" as well as a "comp.bbs.*" hiererarchy on
>USENET. Wouldn't that be a more appropriate place to ask?
>
>Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
Hello. A while back, I was asking about BBS stuff. Does anyone have a BBS
program (prefferably color, etc., possibly HTML-style), with server/client
software that they could give me? (I could pay for software, shipping,
etc.)
Thanks,
Tim D. Hotze
Rant mode on...
Is it just me, or are others on the list not pleased about what seems to
be a sudden influx of raw HTML code posted here?
Sorry to be such a snit about this, but wading through that crap is making
it a lot harder to read the articles. The Web is not the Internet, and the
Internet is not the web. Last time I checked, CLASSICCMP was a TEXT-BASED
mailing list.
Rant mode off. We now return to our regularly scheduled posts. ;-) BTW, I
would ask those who are posting raw HTML code to please stop!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
Hi!
I had some luck today, and picked up and Amstrad CPC464, two IBM JX's,
and an Altos 486. No idea what I'll do with the spare JX - but they are
neat. Did it take JR cartridges, or ones of it's own? And does anyone
know whether they had to have their own system disks, or could they boot
off standard DOS? Currently I'm stuck with the default BASIC.
The Altos is something new for me - it appears to be from 1984, and has a
number of ports for terminals on the back. It says that it is running a
4186 as the cpu, but I don't know that one and the cpu is covered by the
power supply. Was this actually the 80186, or something else? And does
anyone know anything about Altos and the Altos 486?
Thanks heaps,
Adam.
On 1998-03-10 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk
:It's been a long time since I've looked at a CS book, but I
:remember the Turing machine as a *theoretical* machine that reads
:and writes symbols on an *infinitely long* tape. I'm sure somebody
:could build an approximation of this, but the main interest in the
:Turing machine is that it is used as the definition of
:computational "power." One of theories is that no machine built
:today, or at any time in the future, no matter what the
:architecture, will be able to compute anything that a simple Turing
:machine cannot compute..
that's the one. alan turing defined these machines as part of his
contribution to the proof that mathematics has some unprovables.
anything that can be proved, period, can be proved by a turing machine;
anything that a turing machine can't prove is unprovable. kurt godel
(most famously, perhaps?) and alonzo church producd alternative theorems
to demonstrate the same thing, but turing's work laid the basis for
computer science, and turing himself became quite active within the
field of early uk computation (the original ACE design is his, and he
subsequently worked on manchester's computers).
there are even such things as "universal turing machines", which can be
given definitions of turing machines and used to solve such problems,
which we suspect led directly on to universal computers which could be
programmed to simulate special purpose devices.
the "infinite tape" idea is as important as you suggested, however.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
Today's haul...
TWO Aquarius II computers (Serial numbers 8 and 10)
Lots of software for the above (cartridges/ cassettes)
box of 10 disks for the Aquarius drive (no drive, alas)
teletext software/cartridges, several modems for the above
Printer for the above
Two tape drive units
One prototype smart card unit (credit card size card) - for videotext access
Prototype Commodore disk drive interfaces (2) for Aquarius
Schematics and manuals for Aquarius
Extension interface
Prototype 16K RAM unit (functional)
OSI superboard II with homemade case, including voice synthesis add-on
Another good day.
I'll be trading at least one of the Aquarius II computers, probably.
Offers?
Cheers
A
>It was thus said that the Great jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca once stated:
>>
>> > You forgot the AS/400 series.
>> There's one already!
>
> Oops. Missed it.
How about 1130, 1401, 7090, 4300 series? And the ancestor of
the powerPC, what was it, 801?
At 11:09 AM 3/11/98 -0800, you wrote:
>The reason I can't say the same for CD-ROM's is that I don't have any that
>are more than a decade old. Some of my floppies will be 30 years old
>pretty soon.
I have [music] CD's going back to the mid-80's. They all work fine.
(P.S., never buy an Aiwa CD player.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 06:16 AM 3/13/98 -0800, you wrote:
>because A) I was short on cash and B) I'm really running out of room
>around here and trying not to buy everything I see... I'm not at all
Ah, I'm not alone! 8^)
>
>- Amstrad PCW 8256 (z80/cpm system?)
"Personal Computer Word Processor" I have book 1 of the "User Guide - CP/M
Logo & Word Processor Manual". Seems like it came with "LocaScript" a WP,
DR Logo, and CP/M Plus. A pretty interesting looking machine, actually.
>- Sanyo MBC 550 (straight PC clone?)
Not exactly "straight". Semi-compatible, iirc. Very early in the PC
timeline, and probably pretty significant.
>- Olivetti EVT300 (I may have botched the part number from faulty
>memory, it's a stylish black metal PC-ish box with one 3.5"
>floppy--related to AT&T 6300?)
Could be an AT&T 6300; I seem to remember Olivetti and AT&T worked together
or something.
>All were priced in the 10-15 dollar range. Which, if any, would you
>buy?
Well, depends on your interests. If you're interested in PC (i.e., Intel
x86/MS-DOS) history, definitely go for the Sanyo. If you're more into the
older, more proprietary systems (S-100 stuff/CP/M) go for the amstrad. If
you're a Unix/workstation person (Sun, Apollo, UnixPC, etc.) or perhaps
into foreign stuff or something, go for the Olivetti. (Note, I don't
*know* that the Olivetti runs Unix or anything, just a longshot possibility.)
Me, I'd probably go for the Sanyo first, then the Amstrad. The amstrad,
btw, came with a printer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 07:17 PM 3/11/98 +0000, you wrote:
>PCW8256/PCW8512 : AMSM8256/8512 5.48
I have one of these manuals, with some waterlogging, if anyone wants to
avoid UK shipping. Cost is $.55 + shipping from San Francisco. (that's 55
cents, which includes a 1 cent profit. I'm gonna be rich! 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 02:25 PM 3/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>There's also the problem that folks seem to think that CD-R's are
>indestructable so they do not take care of them (i.e. not putting them back
>in the jewel cases, playing shuffleboard with them, etc.).
CD's too. I saw a guy pull a stack of 15-20 CD's out of his pocket, no
case or anything, and start shuffling through them like a deck of cards.
Picked one out, put it on the seat beside him, took the CD out of his
player, and put it and the rest back in his pocket.
I guess they still worked (though his player had a (I think) 10 second
buffer, so it has plenty of time to do retries.) 'course he didn't look
like the sort of bloke who listened to anything older than a week.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>BTW, I've seen a few non-name SIMMs with dry joints between the
>surface-mount chips and the carrier board. Resoldering those
was an
>entertainment...
>
>Probably more on-topic for this list is a 30 pin SIMM that I
have in my
>spares box. It's 256K*9, using pin-through-hole chips (normal
41256 DRAMs
>in 16 pin DIP packages). It does use the normal SIMM pinout
AFAIK.
Those are adapter boards to convert old DIP DRAMS into SIMMs. I
did a bunch when 1MB SIMMs were $50 each. There are still
places that sell them, JDR in California for one.
Jack Peacock
i've got a PCRT, the desktop form factor, but i need the proprietary keyboard.
any leads?
david
In a message dated 98-03-13 13:17:41 EST, you write:
<< PC/RT?
Anyone want to get rid of one?
Thank you,
David Wollmann
dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com
DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support >>
The reason why people think it's "illegal" to solder PC parts is
because high temeratures can damage semiconductors, or so it says on
every soldering guide I have ever seen. That's what those heat sinks
are for. Now about the sockets, I'd imagine quite a few SIMMS were
broken trying to fit them in. While mostly, it's easy, I had to
pound on some DIMMS I was installing into 10 Macs recently. By the
way, does anyone want an Orchid RAM expansion board for a PS/2?
Sorry, no driver files or anything. I will give it for free. AFAIK,
it works and has either 1, 1.5, or 2 MB RAM on it.
>
>I've seen this stated on several newsgroups as well, but I can't
>understand why it's impossible to solder a new SIMM socket onto a
>motherboard. You can break up the old one, desolder the pins one at a
>time, fit a new one (I've seen them on sale in the UK), and solder it
in.
>Takes about 10 minutes. I've done it before now.
>
>There is a myth doing the rounds that it's impossible to use a
soldering
>iron on PC parts. I don't know where it came from, but it's 100% false.
>
>BTW, I've seen a few non-name SIMMs with dry joints between the
>surface-mount chips and the carrier board. Resoldering those was an
>entertainment...
>
>Probably more on-topic for this list is a 30 pin SIMM that I have in my
>spares box. It's 256K*9, using pin-through-hole chips (normal 41256
DRAMs
>in 16 pin DIP packages). It does use the normal SIMM pinout AFAIK.
>
>I think it came from an Amstrad machine, and I think there are diagrams
>of them in some Amstrad service manuals.
>
>
>-tony
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I got into the web site today, out of interest, and went as far as the
registration page which is working today. They want $35 per month from
foreigners just to enter the site :-(
Regards
Pete
I used to populate the XMS cards with 256K DRAM as well, largest being
2MB (72 chips). As I recall, the 256K DRAM dips were down to about
$2.50~$3.50 a pop when our benevolent Congress stepped in to help us
and the price rose to the $12.00+ range. I was impressed. We had
orders to fill and were being burned bad.... those weren't the days.
Marty Mintzell
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 3/13/98 3:17 PM
At 12:52 3/13/98 -0600, David wrote:
>256K DRAMs bring back all sorts of bad memories. We used to sell 384K
>expansions for the PCjr....Not only were they hell to populate, but when
>the DRAM prices went through the roof, we were only selling a few at ~$300
>a pop.
The thing about those Everex 3MB XMS cards was, I actually did several of
them (groan) with DRAM I'd stocked up on. At the worst of the RAM spike,
the best price I could have gotten on 256K DRAM was US$12.45 per chip.
Which made those d**n Everex cards worth, nominally, over $1300 each....
but we just gritted our teeth, because a 9-chip 1MB 30-pin SIMM was $595!
__________________________________________
Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org
http://www.chac.org/index.html
Computer History Association of California
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From: Kip Crosby <engine(a)chac.org>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)
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On Mar 13, 12:52, David Wollmann wrote:
> Now we just have to worry about busting the cheap plastic
> retainers on some of the older sockets. I hate it when I have to trash a
> mobo for a busted SIMM socket.
They're not usually very hard to replace. I've fixed at least two motherboards
such as you describe by using the SIMM sockets swiped from one that really was
DBR. Even new SIMM sockets aren't expensive.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
I know there has already been a discussion on the Sony SMC-70, but it seems
to have terminated after being sidetracked into a discussion of floppy
connectors.
I've stumbled upon quite a large collection of Sony modules for these
things. This is currently what I have sitting in front of me:
SMC-70G Micro Computer
??????? Genlocker
SMI-7012A Dual Floppy Unit
SMI-7074 NTSC Superimposer
SMI-7050 Cache Disk Unit -- What is this?
SMI-7075 Videotizer
Now, is there anywhere that I can get an OS and the software to use all that
equipment with? Can someone 'lend' me images of thier floppies? (If anyone
has them!)
The main computer module is fuctional -- I can boot it to the point where I
get a console monitor and get type 'b' and get into 'Sony BASIC'. I don't
currently have enough RGB NTSC video equipment to test the rest out.
Thanks,
Adam
( Adam Fritzler afritz(a)iname.com )
http://afritz.base.org/
Anyone remember how to set the default boot drive on a Sun3?
This is not a Sun4, so the monitor commands are completely different
>from anything manufactured in the last ten years....
Thanks!
--jmg
Recently there were a number of VAXservers offered from VCC.
The disposition is they are gone. Some comments for those that are
curious.
They were VAXservers (KA410e) meaning they do not have the graphic console
and they are old and as 3100s go slow. Compared to a m30, m38, m80 series
these are the slowest models. So if you not familiar with VAXen...they
were designed and intended as cheap servers.
Each one weights about 20-25 pounds basic weight of the 3100 pizza box
regardless of model. I priced packaging and shipping in the USA
as $30-50 each (even the tape drives weigh alot!). Thy may be small but
they weigh a lot. That's a lot of money. I can't deal with it. So I'm
not into shipping them. Many people wanted one shipped from VCC and none
took into account that the source had a job to do and no time or resources
to pack them and send them to indiviuals for free and there was no way to
recover the cost back. Me I'm broke so I can't lay out cash to ship them.
Take this as a hint when trying to procure systems/pieces. The source
generally desires LOW EFFORT/COST meaning you pick it up.
Allison
>The infamous Japanese PCjr? The JX was the last straw for the jr community.
>When we heard about it we though IBM was fixing to revive the jr--little
>did we know. Is there any chance you could post a couple snapshots of the
>JX somewhere? I'd love to have a look at one so I can cry in my beer.
I opened one of them up to check her out, and have a shot of the system
with the cover off. As soonas I get the film proceesed I'll put them up.
An ugly beast though - I like them, but they are an ugly dark gray.
>IIRC, the JX could boot PC-DOS 2.10. If it's inwards are anything like the
>PCjr, it's a 128K box, so unless it has been expanded, you're probably
>stuck with DOS 2.10 or 3.x.
It seems they were 512k as standard, but there was no seperate video ram
so 64k of that was taken.
thanks heaps,
Adam.
On Mar 12, 22:01, Doug Yowza wrote:
> Speaking of IMSAI's, I just bought a PROM/RAM board from somebody (it's on
> its way) without knowing exactly what it is (that's my standard MO). All
> I know is that it's a Vector Graphics board for an IMSAI (and comes with
> the original receipt from IMS, as well as an original IMSAI catalog!) and
> I can tell from Bill R's Tandy catalog
> (http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/Tandy_TOC_Frames_Page.htm)
> that it was intended as a front-panel replacement (are your fingers red
> and swolen?).
>
> My guess is that a PROM/RAM board is sort of a ROM emulator. Am I close,
> or is it just a board that can handle PROMs and RAMs?
I'd expect it's just a board that can hold either PROMs or static RAM. A "ROM
emulator" usually refers to some plug-in device, often controlled by a logic
analyser or EPROM programmer with a ribbon cable, that pretends to be a ROM.
Used for development purposes: instead of switching the machine off, counting
to 15, pulling the EPROM, blowing another, fitting it, straightening the pins,
fitting it again, powerering up... you can modify the code on the fly (or while
the machine is halted).
Do you mean it's a board that can do vector graphics, or that it was made by
"Vector Graphics"? I assume the latter, as the former doesn't fit with the
rest of your description. A "front panel replacement" usually means a
ROM/PROM/EPROM board with bootstrap and perhaps monitor code, so you could type
simple commands and get a (textual) response on a VDU instead of having to
toggle the switches and watch the blinkenlights. Quite often, ROM boards could
be could be jumpered for different addresses, not just a bootstrap address, and
sometimes they could hold byte-wide static RAM instead of byte-wide EPROM.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
That NY Times article that Charles Fox mentioned requires a username and
password to access. Charles, could you pull that from the web site and
post it here for all to see?
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
(Another cheap way to start a dumb thread)
I came across a thread on a newsgroup about IBM naming schemes, and was
wondering about all of the Systems/ and Series/. This is what I could come
up with for the hardware...
S/1, PS/1, PS/2, S/3, S/4,
S/23, S/32, S/34, S/36, S/38, S/88,
S/360, S/370, S/390, AS/400,
RS/6000, ES/9000
Are there any I missed?
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
Ok...here's the problem
The machine come up with garbage on the screen.It would also seem that the
video is inverted, I can see the retrace lines etc, so the horizontal
blanking is not working either by the looks of it.
What I suspect is wrong is that either U42 (the 6845 labeled in my machine
as a motorola SC80757P) or U102 (the 4.3 video support chip) is faulty (or
both?).
Does anyone have any info on U102 (what is it..can I get another?) or any
other thoughts.
Some other notes are.
1. It seems to boot (I get a very crappy tandy logo in inverse on the
screen) though the screen is so unstable as to be unreadable.
2. It does not matter if it is in 64 or 80 column mode, the video is still
crap.
3. I suppose the Char generator rom could also be a problem
Any help would be appreciated. BTW does anyone have the diagnostic disc for
the 4/4P ?
Cheers
+----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+
| Physics and Chemistry Depts |
| Massey University |
| Palmerston North |
| New Zealand |
| |
| Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 |
+------------------------------------------+
I have a Z80 computer that I built from a kit in 1978 and I hate to just
set it on the curb and scrap it. It was designed and sold by 'the digital
group' of Denver, CO. It has a Z80 8 bit microprocessor, 2.5 mh, 64K
memory, 80 X 24 output to a monitor, dual 8" floppy drives added later from
Bell Controls of CA and a CPM operating system.
Components:
1 Cabinet containing processor board, memory boards, disk I/O boards, TV
output board and power supply.
2 Keyboard
3 Dual 8" floppy disk drive
4 19" monitor for output
5 Modem
6 Documentation
I would like to donate it. Interested?
Ron Slonneger
Peoria, IL
>anything that a turing machine can't prove is unprovable. kurt godel
I'm reading Douglas Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach, which is about
information, patterns, number theory, intelligence, and so on. I
implore everyone to read it, it is something any scientist ought to be
familiar with like the three laws of motion. Copyright 1979,
ISBN 0-394-74502-7. He wrote some more books after this one, but this
one is better. Two others I have read deal with the same thing.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Can someone tell me what this thing is? It was a freebie (a appearnlty
rightly so). It's got a genuine MC68000P12 in it. When I plug the video
in and turn it on, it just sits at a blank screen with a flashing cursor
in the corner.
I've gathered that it's somesort of graphics workstation but I know
nothing more.
Thanks,
Adam
----------
Adam Fritzler
afritz(a)iname.com
http://www.afritz.base.org
----------
>Instead, Q is low and NOT Q is high which is the reverse of
what SHOULD
>be the case. What's the deal? Bad 7474? Or is my thinking
SCREWED UP?
>
>IF my thinking is correct and my suspicion that the 7474 is
bad, is it
>safe to replace it with a 74LS74? A friend of mine and I had a
long
>conversation about what you can replace with what and I've
forgotten
>what he told me about that.
>
considering the low speed of a 6800, an LS (or even an HCT)
should work...but, are you sure it isn't the case of a fast
pulse on the D input when CLK is hit (on the falling edge if
memory is correct)? and you aren't seeing it (using a logic
probe or a triggered scope)? did you check the voltage in to D?
maybe it's in no mans land (i.e. around 2v). Maybe its the IC
driving the flip flop D input thats bad, or a fast pulse is
hitting the R* input
Anyway, I'd take it out and put in a socket if you think its
most likely cause
Jack Peacock
Just in case you're interested, I've set up a sharp MZ-80K oriented site
(below).
If you have any information which may be suitable for inclusion, please let
me know.
Thanks
--
Mike
http://www.boink.demon.co.uk/sharp/
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 Nick Amato <naamato(a)wooj.merit.edu> wrote:
>I have the opportunity to snarf a DEC 5500 for free. This is a
>refrigerator-sized Q-bus machine that runs an old version of
>Ultrix (which is 4.2 BSD based).
>
>There are several cages of disks in the package. Supposedly,
>around 2 GB total storage. And, a few DECprinters (9-pin dot matrix).
>
>And, I'm told that it boots.
>
>Has anyone had any sort of experience with one of these?
>
Yeh, I've got one, and even better, the book for it.
It uses the KN220 CPU module set running at 30MHz, 32 bit data path
It has Ehternet support (both AUI and thinwire) using the DESQA controller.
It supports DEC's DSSI drives (i.e. RF71 380M, RF72 1G) and will mount
three of these in the BA213 cabinet
Mine supports SCSI drives (i.e. RZ55 300M, RZ56 600M) and has an iterface
for external drives
It will support DEC's SDI drives (i.e. RA series) using a KDA50 module set.
It has a serial console port using DEC's MMJ connector
Mine has a TK70 tape drive using a TQK70 controller
It will support the TK50Z tape drive on the SCSI bus
or the TK50 drive using a TQK50 contoller
It will support the TLZ04 tape drive on the SCSI bus
It will support the TU81 tape drive using a KLESI controller
(I think I have a spare controller somewhere.)
Mine has two MS220-AA 32 Mbyte memory boards, I think it supports 4 total
It supports the Ultrix operating system, version 4.0 or later.
This is the same as for the DS2100/3100, 5000, and 5400.
By all means snarf it up.
Mike
Well, since the failed codes I got says the HDA is toast, I got to back
this sucker up, real quick. I only have TU58's on the 44.
I have a lot of them though.
How can I tell RSTS 8.0-07 to back up to them?
-------
I thought it could only work in standard mode, but I will rotate them
and see. Could it be an weird parallel port? Also, what is the
assembly languge command for the line that is used for data on X1541?
(SELECT IN line)
>
>Hmm. Mine worked the first time, after I tried each of the parallel
port
>modes on my motherboard. Did you try varying those?
>
>- John
>Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I'm interested. Please email me: marty(a)itgonline.com
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: digital group Z80 computer
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 3/12/98 3:38 PM
I have a Z80 computer that I built from a kit in 1978 and I hate to just
set it on the curb and scrap it. It was designed and sold by 'the digital
group' of Denver, CO. It has a Z80 8 bit microprocessor, 2.5 mh, 64K
memory, 80 X 24 output to a monitor, dual 8" floppy drives added later from
Bell Controls of CA and a CPM operating system.
Components:
1 Cabinet containing processor board, memory boards, disk I/O boards, TV
output board and power supply.
2 Keyboard
3 Dual 8" floppy disk drive
4 19" monitor for output
5 Modem
6 Documentation
I would like to donate it. Interested?
Ron Slonneger
Peoria, IL
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From: Ron and Jean Slonneger <rnjslonneger(a)worldnet.att.net>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: digital group Z80 computer
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<>> And not so recently starting with the AT and all after the keyboard
<>> interface chip is a slave cpu (8041a or 8042).
<>
<>Well, my 8089 data sheet is copyright 1980,
8041 series predates the 8089. Also the 8089 still needs the page
register as it's limited to 20 bit addressing when it's used with
286 and later parts.
I may add the 8089 was no fun to use.
Allison
This is the second time I've made one, and it STILL doesn't work.
Neither do I want to buy one. Hints? I am using StarCommander and
it doesn't detect the drive at all.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
lfb107(a)psu.edu (Les Berry) wrote:
>I know I saw a post on this a while back but I don't recall
>any of the suggestions for preserving old floppies.
I've archived a number of my Terak 8-inch floppies by sending a disk
image out the serial port, and capturing on a PC. I also wrote utilities
to extract the files and get directories from these disk images
containing UCSD P-System and RT-11 file systems. See my web page for
more info.
It would be great if there were a highly portable program that could
be adapted easily to any system that would somehow (serial, Ethernet,
file system, etc.) make a copy of all the blocks on a device. Of course,
some operating systems already have such utilities that can be called
into service for this task, but I think we need something that goes
a bit deeper.
For example, old media tends to have errors. This block-transfer program
(and perhaps its resulting disk image) need to be smart enough to mark
some blocks as "known bad" to let external programs work around the
problem. Various built-in block-copy programs might react to this
error in different ways, none of them pleasant to the data restoration
task, of course.
Most emulators can use a pristine disk image. Some emulators for archaic
computers have developed their own formats for storing floppy, hard disk
and tape images.
Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> wrote:
>I don't understand the difficulties here. You make a sector-by-sector
>image of the 8-inch floppy and store it on whatever medium you regard
>as being more archival. This is done quite easily on every system
>I know with an 8-inch floppy drive; if you're having difficulties, let
>us know your hardware and OS and a solution will be found.
It would be great if there were more utilities that could operate on
these floppy/hard/paper/cassette/N-track images: reading and writing
files to them, getting directories of them, etc.
jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca wrote:
>For any paper based media, clone data to acid-free paper, mylar
>or tyvek. Tyvek is nearly very HARD to tear and very strong.
Paper-based media? You mean manuals, or Cauzin soft-strips? :-)
Laser-printer and even some copier toners drive me bananas; a
little heat or pressure or out-gassing plastic nearby and they
fuse pages together or flake toner particles.
>Also stray magnetic field hurts the magnetic based stuff.
I may be completely off-base about this, but I've always regarded this
as an urban legend, too. Go ahead, try to damage the bits on a floppy
with a refrigerator magnet. It's not the same as a bulk eraser.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
"Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>This is the second time I've made one, and it STILL doesn't work.
Hmm. Mine worked the first time, after I tried each of the parallel port
modes on my motherboard. Did you try varying those?
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles E. Fox <foxvideo(a)wincom.net>
> Check out the NY Times article at
>http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/98/03/circuits/articles/12die.html
>
I note that the registration page for their site says that registration is
free to US residents, so will I get a bill ;-)
Although the following page says that there is no need to register at this
time, if I enter the URL given I keep getting thrown back to the
registration page.
What is the article about?
Regards
Pete
Subject: OLD 8 inch floppy disks please take 'em.
From: aek <aek(a)all-electric.com>
Date: 1998/03/10
Message-ID: <350600A1.A84(a)all-electric.com>
Newsgroups: aus.ads.forsale.computers.used,aus.electronics
Y-ellow Y'all
I have an unknown number of old 8 inch floppies in 10 boxes. Some are
Burroughs brand others are verbatum. Plus two old disk cleaning kits. I
guess you could use the cleaning disks but the rest of the stuff looks
crusty.
Take 'em away or pay the COD if you really want 'em. If no-one want's
'em they're beyond history.
Batz ________ _ _
/ ____|| | // AEK C/o
/ /| |____ | |// 11 Henley Beach Road _-_|\
/ __ ____|| < Henley Beach / \
/ / | |____ | \ \ South Australia 5022 \_.-*_/
/ / |______|| |\ \ (+618) 8356 4081 v
All Electric Kitchen http://www.all-electric.com
Well this has been really a slow wek on the finds. today I picked up IBM
6156 portable disk drive bay that holds 3 drives for the IBM RT PC. I got
the user manual and the service manual with it for $25 at Goodwill. Picked
up a MAc 512ke unit that I've been looking for at a thrift for 80 cents
does not work, no screen display. Picked a complete manual set for the NCR
PC6 along with 4 setup disk. A AST Bravo/286 for 80 cents without monitor
or key broad have not tested it yet. today I also picked about 30 books and
manuals covering all makes of hardware and some software titles. I've got
hurry and a warehouse setup for the museum. Well that's it for now I will
list some of the other items later. Keep computing !! John
>Return-Path: <CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu>
>Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:13:20 +0100
>Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
>Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
>From: RICCARDO <chemif(a)mbox.queen.it>
>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Subject: Re: AT&T 6300
>X-Sender: chemif(a)mbox.queen.it
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
>
>At 12:54 09/03/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>
>>I don't recall if there was a "WGS" or not (in storage now) but it does have
>>the 25 pin video connector. The color scheme is brownish-black base with
>>the top being approx 1 1/2" white bordered and about half of the middle
>>section being black, the other half, or course, depending on the color of
>>the drives in the system.
>About the drives bay(s), have anyone a transparent-red HD cover in these
>positions, like the Olivetti version have?
I've wondered about those too. There are several AT&Ts in a trift store
here and some have the red covers and some have a second drive in that
position. I guess it's just a blank cover.
Joe
>
>
>
>????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ?
>? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ?
>? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ?
>? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ?
>? e-mail=chemif(a)mbox.queen.it ?
>????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>
>
>Here's a question: What's the differences between a VAX 785
and a 780?
>
Hmmm, going strictly from memory, wasn't the 785 some kind of
dual-processor or failsafe setup? I remember it dropped off the
VMS supported hardware list back on V5.something or other.
Jack Peacock
To first update all of you on the three terminals I advertised before,
the two Digitals are presently spoken for and the Visual 102 w/keyboard
is still available. I need $5 plus shipping for it and an answer before
the 15th or it finds a hole to fill in the nearby dump.
I also have three Hewlett Packard 700/44 terminals with keyboards that
look just like new and work great. Not sure which emulations they can do
but while going through the setup before I saw quite a few. These have a
current loop connector as well as a 25 pin RS-232 connector on back. I
need $10 each plus shipping (pretty light for their size) or all three
for $25 plus shipping. I'll hang onto these as I have money into them
(swapped for labor charge equivalent) but I do need to find out soon
before I bury them in my storage building for a while.
Contact me by direct email please.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 / Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
At 12:54 09/03/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I don't recall if there was a "WGS" or not (in storage now) but it does have
>the 25 pin video connector. The color scheme is brownish-black base with
>the top being approx 1 1/2" white bordered and about half of the middle
>section being black, the other half, or course, depending on the color of
>the drives in the system.
About the drives bay(s), have anyone a transparent-red HD cover in these
positions, like the Olivetti version have?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ?
? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ?
? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ?
? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ?
? e-mail=chemif(a)mbox.queen.it ?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Do they have the service manuals for the CPC et al too? If so I would be
interested in the 6128 manual. What are the coordinates of the company?
Thanks
-------------------------------------------------------------
Francois
Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Amstrad disks
>BTW, the service manual (an Amstrad Service manual = parts lists +
>schematics _only_, virtually no text) is available from CPC in the UK if
>anyone needs one. It's not that expensive (say about \pounds 15.00).
>
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>
>-tony
>
Hi. After noticing how boring stuff was getting (between exams (no
homework), and decrease of after school activities), I've decided to beef-up
my involvement. So, I'm offering my help doing classiccmp/semi-classic
stuff. I can't do everything, but I can do web pages, basic tips, etc. If
anyone wants my help, please don't hesitate to contact me.
Thanks,
Tim D. Hotze
Here we go... I moved the RA81 to school. Whilst running the RA81
checkout tests in the manual, I get to step 11 of the checkout tests, and
I get the following:
%RA81-TEST: SUBTEST:0F ERROR:D8 UNIT:000
%RA81-FRU-SERVO,HDA
This indicates that the HDA needs replacing
-------
> From CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Wed Mar 11 12:38:47 1998
> Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Preserving old floppies, fixed disks...
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> X-Sender: dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com
> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
> X-Lines: 72
>
> At 11:46 AM 3/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >I know I saw a post on this a while back but I don't recall
> >any of the suggestions for preserving old floppies. I have
> >a few things on 8 inch floppies that are pretty much irreplacable
> >so any ideas are welcome!
> >
>
> Other than storing them in a cool, dark place I don't thing there's a whole
> lot you can do to curb the aging effects. We're starting to see problems
> with 9 Track and QIC tapes (5-10 yrs. old or >), not so much with 8"
> diskettes--yet.
The concensus on the "Community Memory" computer-history list, IIRC, was
that to preserve the DATA it was a good idea to periodically migrate it to
newer (types of) media. If you want to continue using the same PHYSICAL
media (type), for purposes of "completeness," sentiment, etc., I assume
you could simply (?) read-and-rewrite the data back onto the "same" media
(whether the "same tape," or just "another tape of the same kind," is up
to YOU). I can however envision situations in which system resource
limitations might make it difficult to do that -- only one drive, no spare
"blank" media, insufficient memory to buffer a copy of ONE tape/disk
while swapping to the next one (more of a problem with tapes than with
disks). You might be able to get around some of these problems with
clever programming (i.e. tracking media position and restoring positions
around multiple medium-swaps!) -- but I'm not about to assume that you guys
can all PROGRAM all the machines you COLLECT. (Can you?)
Me, I'm a DIY-software-head. I don't buy, or even dumpster-dive for,
much hardware that I can't at least POTENTIALLY program...
Chris Chiesa ("the still-pretty-new guy")
I know I saw a post on this a while back but I don't recall
any of the suggestions for preserving old floppies. I have
a few things on 8 inch floppies that are pretty much irreplacable
so any ideas are welcome!
Also, I have a number of machines that I don't use on any sort
of regular basis that have hard drives in them. I don't expect
these things to last forever but is there something I can do to
prolong the life of some relatively unused machines. (An old
Xerox comes to mind) Should I "start 'er up" every so often
(like a car in storage) or is it better to just leave well enough
alone?
Thanks!
Les
lfb107(a)psu.edu
[tony duell]
:> oh, add a sirius one to the list; we forgot it.
:Still sure you don't want to LART me? There's a few about - I was
"lart"?
:given one a few months back. Strange machine - the disk controller
:has a 8048-series microcontroller and a lot of TTL on it. It's an
:8088 machine, but virtually all the I/O chips come from the 65xx
:family, etc.
not surprising, considering that chuck peddle designed the 6502 in the
first place. he was especially keen on the 6522 and tended to scatter
them around his designs like confetti... ;> the disk drives used gcr and
ran at variable speeds, not unlike the mac's (although was the gcr
encoding method a more traditional 4 bits onto 5, as opposed to apple's
software-based 6-to-8?) and also boasted a capacity of 1.2Mb and a data
rate of 500kHz. and an 800x400 screen that took memory from the main
map, rather than its own little partition off somewhere else.
it wasn't a cheap design, but it was what the ibm should have been if it
*had* to use that particular architecture...
:Yes, 'everybody's got an 11' - but it's the sort of machine you
:should have anyway :-). IMHO it's a very clean architecture.
hmm. maybe. *grudge grudge* yes, it is a very nice architecture,
particularly in the way both the source and destination operands can be
specified as being in memory for all instructions (rather than just
loads) - but our objections to actually having one are not based in
rationality in this case...
:And surely it's better to have a real PDP8 than to have a simulator
it depends what you want it for. we want it for the programming
challenge (what can usefully be done within 4k?) and it makes sense for
programming challenge phase 1 to be hacking out a simulator. getting the
real pdp8 is something we'd see as the last step, not the first.
:Well, a Daybreak (the smallest, commonest D-machine, I think)
:turned up at a radio rally a couple of weeks ago. It was the first
:one I'd seen outside a museum....
hmm - so how much did you pay for it then...? :>
[tiger]
:The design was sold to HH electronics,
:who went broke (no idea whether the cost of making the Tiger had
:anything to do with this), and the machine never went into
:production.
probably - ram was expensive, modems were expensive, 7220s were
expensive... it would have been a hacker's dream, but for most
hobbyists, possibly overkill.
-- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive
This morning I went to a trift store and found an IBM PC that said
"Personal Computer 3270". How rare are these? I've never seen one before.
I have seen AT 3270s but not a PC. This one had a full height hard drive
with IBM logo on it and a full height 5 1/4" floppy drive with IBM's logo.
It had model 5271 marked on the back.
Also a few weeks ago I saw an IBM AT that was marked "Personnal Computer
AT Store Controller". What is it for? I've never heard of one. The owner
said that he had already "modified it" to make it a regular computer.
Joe
<> More recently, Intel designed the 8089 I/O co-processor as part
<> of the 8086 family. It had an instruction set optimized for I/O
<> functions.
And not so recently starting with the AT and all after the keyboard
interface chip is a slave cpu (8041a or 8042).
In 81 I started a system using multiple z80s and 8085s to do things
like disk IO and loosely coupled multiprocessing (using z80s). When I
had it up and operational it could outrun a dos powered 386/20.
Slave procesors and distributed cpus are not new. One favorite is the
PDP-12, a PDP-8 with a linc-8 as a peripheral. The PDP-10 used PDP-8
as an IO processor or later ones used PDP-11s. Even the Microvax-II
disk controller had a T-11(chip version of a base PDP-11).
Allison
> Daniel,
>
> Does the system 34 use *" floppy disks? I don't know anything about S34
> but I think I got a bunch of disks this weekend and I think some them are
> original disks for the S 34.
>
> Joe
I don't know about Daniel's machine but every System/34 I've ever seen
does. It takes them either singly or in "magazines" of ten diskettes.
I recommend that anyone with a S/34 tries to get hold of some of the
empty magazines - or even full ones.
AFAIK, IBM's idea was you kept yor software, backups etc. in magazines,
unless it was 3 disks or fewer. I imagine most people did what people
nowadays will be forced to do - keep the disks in conventional boxes and
load the magazines immediately before insertion into the S/34.
Philip
;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Russ Blakeman typed:
Nuts... Sorry, guys!
"Merch"
--
Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed,
Owner, MerchWare | nuclear warhead disarmament should
zmerch(a)northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice.
I found an interesting gadget at a hamfest last weekend. It's a Digi-Viewer
made by SwTPc. It's a gold colored metal box about 6 x 5 x 4 inches. It
has the outline of an IC on it and 16 lights around the outline to
represent each IC pin. There's a cable coming out of the box with a 16 pin
chip clip on the other end. It's AC powered and looks like it uses
incandescent bulbs instead of LEDs. I've never heard of one before but it
looks like a prehistoric IC pin status display. Anyone here ever use one of
these?
BTW A friend of mine has a digital clock made my MITS. How rare are they?
Joe
Sure thing. I have one of those beasties. Before I could afford a
good oscilloscope it seemed like a nice way to bench-test some digital
(DTL & TTL) circuits. Modified mine with connector for the cable
attachment to the box so I could plug in different IC clips for different
sized components. Also could use it as a pretty dumb "logic analyzer"
with a cable that had clips or probes on each pin.
It never worked very well for dynamic circuits (not surprising) but I
did get a lot of use from it while breadboarding.
Gary
At 03:18 PM 3/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> I found an interesting gadget at a hamfest last weekend. It's a Digi-Viewer
>> made by SwTPc. It's a gold colored metal box about 6 x 5 x 4 inches. It
>> has the outline of an IC on it and 16 lights around the outline to
>> represent each IC pin. There's a cable coming out of the box with a 16 pin
>> chip clip on the other end. It's AC powered and looks like it uses
>> incandescent bulbs instead of LEDs. I've never heard of one before but it
>> looks like a prehistoric IC pin status display. Anyone here ever use one of
>> these?
>
>Yes, I have seen them, but that's about it. SWTPC made quite a few things
>that were not related to thier 680x based micros - in fact some things
>were not digital at all!
>
>William Donzelli
>william(a)ans.net
>
Pardon my ignorance but what is RCS/RI? Retro Computing Society of
Rhode Island? Regardless, is there a web address I can visit?
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Demography
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 3/5/98 2:30 PM
> I'd be interested in the Sphere, SWTPC gear, etc you don't want.
RCS/RI will be getting the bulk of it. That way, quite a few of us can
enjoy it at once.
The extras (I have three Spheres, for example) are being held for someone
in hopes that a trade comes up. If it does not, the extras will be
offered on the list.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
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From: William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Demography
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X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Anyone famillar with a Samsung S300? The e-mail address is
julief(a)nytimes.com.
>Dear Mr. Coward,
>Just visited your museum web site. Very nice. Unfortunately, it didn't
>contain the information I was seeking, namely, the retail price of a
>Samsung S300 back in 1988. I'm with the New York Times and I need the
>information for a story I'm working on. If you have an idea where I can
>look, please message me. Otherwise, good luck with your museum.
>Cheers,
>Julie Flaherty
=========================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=========================================
I thought this might be of interest to the Brits on the list. I have
asked him for a couple of them so leave some for me :-)
Regards
Pete
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:48:15 -0000, in comp.sys.dec "Jeff Chambers"
<jeff(a)admswood.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I have 11 VT320's surplus to my requirements, which are free to a good
>home - ie not for resale by a broker.
>
>My only requirements are that this is a UK offer (I am Leicestershire based)
>and the prospective owner(s) collects or arranges carriage. The least hassle
>you offer me the better chance you can have one/them!
>
>Jeff
>
>
>> and I am interested in something that had a processor that
>> interacted w/the user and a separate one to do the
processing
>> (ie a real-time system capable of doing all that a normal
one can)
The earliest machine I know of that did this on a large scale
was the 6000 series from CDC, starting with the CDC 6600 in late
60's, designed by Seymour Cray. The main CPU was a superscalar
60 bit processor with no I/O instructions or ports, just memory.
All I/O was handled by PPUs (peripheral processor units), which
if I recall were 24 bit CPUs, (very hazy recall here) using an
older CDC 924 type instruction set. The PPUs had direct memory
channels into the main CPU. The operating system posted
messages to the PPUs for I/O requests. The PPUs were not user
programmable, but could be programmed at the system programmer
level.
More recently, Intel designed the 8089 I/O co-processor as part
of the 8086 family. It had an instruction set optimized for I/O
functions. I vaguely recall someone made an S-100 board with an
8089 on it (was it Godbout?) but it never caught on.
Jack Peacock
At 08:22 AM 3/10/98, you wrote:
> Was it your mailbox that filled up and was bouncing messages all over the
>place?
I sure hope not! If it was, I truly apologize! But I download mail
everyday, (although on weekends I don't always get to read it right away.)
I did get the NEC stuff. Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 04:00 PM 3/9/98 PST, you wrote:
> and I am interested in something that had a processor that
> interacted w/the user and a separate one to do the processing
> (ie a real-time system capable of doing all that a normal one can)
Godbout (CompuPro) made a processor board that had both an 80286 and an
8085. I know, because I worked on such a system in the early 80's.
Meanwhile, in that same box, the disk controller had a Z80 on it.
(I am *so* sorry I didn't go back and snag that system after we (the
employees) left en masse due to not having been paid for several months.)
In the early '80s, I felt rather strongly that the ideal system would be
based on a z8000 (or 80x86 if you must) for number crunching and general
processing and a 68000 for graphics and interface stuff. Put in two
processors and let 'em do what they're best at. Still feel the same, only
these days its the '586/'060 combo (or whatever the latest is).
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
I found an Amstrad PCW-8256 word proccessor this morning. It uses CF-2
floppy disks. Are these the same small disks that everyone was looking for
a few weeks ago?
Joe
I went and started the System/34 yesterday... Gave it a good looking-over
first. The PSU is really interesting - There's a transfomer bigger than my
head, wires about a quarter-inch thick, and stickers all over that say
"DANGER! 580 VOLTS!" and "LINE POWER HERE WITH MACHINE POWERED OFF"
But I found one little note inside which makes me think that it's single-phase
reading "INPUT POWER 208V/1PH".
Anyway, the previous owner gave me a userid and password, so I started
it up - It's all menuized. Cute. The MACHINE IN USE light is burned out too.
Oh - On the CE panel thee's a LAMP TEST button. It turns on ALL the lamps,
not the the CE-panel lamps. Also, on power-on, you have to push LOAD to
read in the bootstrap. Then supply it with a username and password.
I was tld MJR was the system manager - Is that standard on all IBM stuff?
-------
On Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:50:19 +0000 (GMT) Tony Duell said:
Tim said about bit-rot
>> In the first stages of bit rot, single bits go "flaky" and will not
>> read reliably. So the first thing to do is read the 1702A's multiple
>> times and see if any are going bad in this way. Of course, be sure
>> to save the results of each read pass...
Tony replied with:
>With _most_ EPROMs, bit-rot causes 0's to turn into 1's, but not the
>reverse, since the fully erased (=discharged) state of the chip is full
>of FF's. Thus if you start to detect flakyness, you read the chip n times
>and logically AND the dumps. This is not hard to do given another
>computer, of course.
Tony, this didn't sound right to me so I looked it up and my book is
saying that 1702A (and the 5204) erase to all 0s. Is this wrong?
And I thought I'd pass along this neat table that I found on DataI/O
web page while looking for device code for my Series 22.
I reduced it on the xerox machine and taped it to my programmer.
DEVICE DECIMAL DECIMAL HEX HEX HEX
SIZE NO. BITS ADDR RANGE NO. BYTES CHECKSUM(1)
===========================================================================
2708 1K X 8 8K 0 ---- 3FF 400 3FC00
2716 2K X 8 16K 0 ---- 7FF 800 7F800
2732 4K X 8 32K 0 ---- FFF 1000 FF000
2764 8K X 8 64K 0 --- 1FFF 2000 1FE000
27128 16K X 8 128K 0 --- 3FFF 4000 3FC000
27256 32K X 8 256K 0 --- 7FFF 8000 7F8000
27512 64K X 8 512K 0 --- FFFF 10000 FF0000
27010 128K X 8 1M 0 -- 1FFFF 20000 1FE0000
27020 256K X 8 2M 0 -- 3FFFF 40000 3FC0000
27040 512K X 8 4M 0 -- 7FFFF 80000 7F80000
27080 1024K X 8 8M 0 -- FFFFF 100000 FF00000
2048K X 8 16M 0 - 1FFFFF 200000 1FE00000
4096K X 8 32M 0 - 3FFFFF 400000 3FC00000
8192K X 8 64M 0 - 7FFFFF 800000 7F800000
(1) Represents the checksum of a blank EPROM where memory locations contain
FF hex.
=========================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=========================================
At 08:16 AM 3/10/98, Joe wrote:
> The technical reference manuals sound interesting. How big are they? I
>might get one just to add to my documentation library.
There are two of them each about 250 pgs.
> Is there a command to show the amount of memory in the HX-20? I'll try
>it with and without the expansion unit connected and see what they do. BTW
>is it normal for the HX-20 to turn on and show a menu for: 1) Monitor 2)
>BASIC ? That's what these do. Do you have any user documentation for the
>monitor and BASIC for the HX-20?
Don't really see one. HX-20's came with 16k and I think the expansion
doubled that to 32k. It looks like the command "STAT ALL" should
give you what your looking for.
Les
<Nobody has ever made a Turing machine (it's that nasty infinitely long
<tape that keeps getting in the way), but that reminds me of something I'v
<been looking for. Didn't Danny Hillis make a computer from TinkerToys
<(TM) as part of his PhD thesis or something? I've been looking for the
<schematics....
Yes I know but it has been done. Back when shift registers were commonly
available with lengths of 1024 bits it was very trivial to string a few
and get really long serial memory. With moden megabit rams it's not that
much more difficult. The tape was not so much the problem but the
programing...
Allison
Doug,
I'll let you know if he decides to sell. I think he's considering it.
These are NICE units. They were used as controllers in some kind of
survielence (sp?) systems so they were enclosed inside of another unit and
have never been handled and they look like new.
The technical reference manuals sound interesting. How big are they? I
might get one just to add to my documentation library.
Is there a command to show the amount of memory in the HX-20? I'll try
it with and without the expansion unit connected and see what they do. BTW
is it normal for the HX-20 to turn on and show a menu for: 1) Monitor 2)
BASIC ? That's what these do. Do you have any user documentation for the
monitor and BASIC for the HX-20?
Joe
At 11:57 PM 3/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Joe wrote:
>
>> I don't have them for sale. They belong to a friend of mine. If he
>> decides to sell one, I'll let you know. Do they need a special tape or
>> will a standard audio tape work in them? What's the expansion unit?
>
>Thanks, Joe, I would like to buy one, so let me know if he sells. I don't
>know much about the HX-20, but I think the expansion unit was memory
>expansion (from 16K to 32K?). I've talked to somebody that used to sell
>these things as a dealer, and he still has the technical reference manual,
>so if we become HX-20 owners, I'll see if I can at least get photocopies
>of the tech ref.
>
>BTW, I saw an Epson HC-41 today. I think the HX-20 and HX-40 were sold in
>Japan as the HC-20 and HC-40 (which was also called the PX-4, I think).
>I've never heard of an HC-41 before today, but it looked sort of like an
>HX-20 except it had chicklet keys and a non-QWERTY layout. It was
>attached by ribbon cable to a rather large machine; the tiny Epson and
>large machine it controlled where being sold as a matched set for $250.
>
>-- Doug
>
>
<is is just the same machine without framebuffer and monitor? My only VAX
<(so far) is a VAXstation 3100 m38, and I'm finally starting to understan
<why there is such a religious user base for them.
;-)
<Also, Allison, which model is the guy giving away?
Free! ;-) Specific type unknown. I plan to round them up and then see
what we have.
Allison
<Didn't Danny Hillis make a computer from TinkerToys
<(TM) as part of his PhD thesis or something? I've been looking for the
<schematics....
I haven't seen schematics, but there was a write-up of a TinkerToy computer
which plays Tic Tac Toe in Scientific American a few years ago; sorry, I
don't remember the year. I do remember the description being good enough to
make me feel that I understood how the thing worked and, with a little
enthusiasm and a bunch of TinkerToys, possibly replicate. Perhaps now that
I have a big pile of K'NEX I should find the issue and give it a go.
IIRC, the Tic Tac Toe machine is essentially a ROM lookup table. You encode
the current state of the board on a part of the machine which slides up and
down then hoist that part to the top. As the part falls, it compares the
state of the board to the various entries in the ROM. Upon finding a match,
it waves a flag indicating its move.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
Hi,
Pardon someone fairly new to the cult of VAX, but what are the differences
between the VAXstation 3100 and the VAXserver 3100? Is it like Suns, where
is is just the same machine without framebuffer and monitor? My only VAX
(so far) is a VAXstation 3100 m38, and I'm finally starting to understand
why there is such a religious user base for them.
Also, Allison, which model is the guy giving away? Please let me know when
you get them and what condition they were in, I'm really interested. 6/7
of my freebies have turned out to be expensive-to-ship parts boxes, the
only real exception being a Sun 3/50 that was magnificent (complete with
memory expansion board).
Regards,
Aaron
At 12:07 AM 3/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Joe wrote:
>
>> I just found two Epson HX-20 computers with expansion units, plug-in
>> printers and plug-in micro-cassette drives. I've seen lots of these
>> computers but not the other items. Can anyone tell me about them? What's
>> a setup like this worth? Everthing is in PERFECT condtion, but no books,
>> tapes or anything else included.
>
>I was thinking about getting one of these myself, and I checked and found
>both ribbons and tapes still available (I think it was on Epson's Canadian
>site). I don't think there's a bid enough market for these things to
>come up with a pricing guide. Most people still give this stuff away for
>free since it's worthless to them.
>
>I'll give you $40 for one to kill two birds with one stone: I'll get an
>HX-20, and we'll establish the going market price for them.
>
Doug,
I don't have them for sale. They belong to a friend of mine. If he
decides to sell one, I'll let you know. Do they need a special tape or
will a standard audio tape work in them? What's the expansion unit?
Joe
William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net> writes:
> In general, the unusual stuff dies early.
That's a very interesting statement, but if you think about it it's both
"exactly backwards" and "exactly true." Stuff becomes known as "unusual"
precisely BECAUSE it "dies early" -- and is therefore not around to become
"commonplace!" Dinosaurs are extinct today BECAUSE they died out 65 million
years ago...
Chris Chiesa
cchi(a)lle.rochester.edu
All right, I have another bombing of questions and theories for y'all.
1)What was the first network server product for the IBM PC architecture?
2)Let's take the GRiD server as an example (I have never seen a GRiD
machine, BTW). How does it differ from any desktop system?
3)Have there been any machines that made extensive use of a truly
unusual architecture? What I am looking for is twofold: I am
interested if anything ever used a neural network-like arrangement,
and I am interested in something that had a processor that
interacted w/the user and a separate one to do the processing
(ie a real-time system capable of doing all that a normal one can)
These are for my personal investigations, but I have a feeling that
many new ideas have been tried before to some extent.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
At 07:49 AM 3/9/98, you wrote:
>>FWIW, I got email earlier today from somebody who threw his IPC away when
>>nobody took him up on his offer of taking it away for free....
>
> That's very strange since I frequently see ads from people wanting to
>buy them. There was an ad in one of the HP news-groups just a few days
ago.
[I missed the beginning of this; I apparently got booted off the list.*]
I too am looking for one, and would gladly take one for free. Depending on
my financial circumstances at the time, I would even pay for one.
*Not being one to know when I'm not wanted, I promptly signed up again. 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
<>Hello all,
<
<>We have several (currently 6, more to come) VaxServer 3100's that
<>we have retired from service. They had been doing Macintosh file =
<>serving,
<>for the last 5 years and have been replaced with NT boxes.
I wrote him in the hopes of securing them, vermont it not far to go.
Allison
