Since there was talk here in the recent past of reviving one of these. I
found the following on comp.sys.ibm.sys3x.misc:
> I have about 40 logic cards, all the power supplies and an 8 inch floppy
> drive from a
> System/34. All are for sale for best offer. Could supply list of numbers
> if interested.
>
> Norm Helmkay helmkay(a)ibm.net
Don't reply to me, I'm just an innocent bystander.
--
David Wollmann
dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com
Are you saying that the original 16KB 5150 had four rows of 4KB dips?
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 5/22/98 3:17 PM
At 11:11 5/22/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series,
>> called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K,
>
>What distinguishes the two series?
As noted, I don't know. I'm hoping that someone like Tony does.
>I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with
>16K of memory."
Your hopes are dashed. The only pricey IBM PCs are the ones that had 16K
installed at the factory and weren't upgraded. The 64K ones are relatively
common, although worth keeping; it's like the difference between a Lisa One
and a Lisa 2.
__________________________________________
Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org
http://www.chac.org/index.html
Computer History Association of California
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From: Kip Crosby <engine(a)chac.org>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old
computers...)
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I have a 16KB-64KB 5150, it has one row of 16KB dips soldered in place
with three rows of 16KB dips socketed. Pull the three rows of socketed
16KB dips and it's a 16KB 5150 equipped with 16KB of soldered in
memory.
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...)
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 5/22/98 2:18 PM
> Of the 16K-64K mb's there are reputed to have been two distinct series,
> called "Series 0" and "Series 1." A 16K,
What distinguishes the two series?
I hope that "16K" means "16/64K model" as opposed to "actually equipped with
16K of memory."
-- Derek
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From: "D. Peschel" <dpeschel(a)u.washington.edu>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pay for old computers...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980522080349.00f4dc70(a)pop.batnet.com> from "Kip
Crosby" at May 22, 98 08:03:49 am
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At 12:47 PM 5/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Nope, HMR.
First off, for those not in the know, HMR is HMR USA (see
<http://www.hmrusa.com/>), a "global recycler". What they do mostly is
take in a *HUGE* warehouse full of older computers and ship them overseas
where they'll be used. They also sell stuff to individuals on Fridays and
alternate Saturdays.
>I called them once to inquire about their inventory, and I got the
>impression that they were asking for real money (like $100 for obsolete,
>err, classic, laptops). Do they drop prices on the weekend?
It's all very subjective. You go in, find what you want, ask how much, and
then haggle. $100 should get you a '386 Compaq, probably with docking
station. But you never know. I've walked away from stuff I really wanted
because the guy said too high a price. (Like my DG-1; the first time I saw
it, I think the guy said $50, the next time, I think a different guy said
like $20 or so.)
>> You wouldn't know what type of HD is in there, would you?
>
>I think they were probably using Conners. It's easy to check. Pop off the
>plastic feet on the back panel to reveal two screws. Remove them, and
>then pop off the lid.
Cool. I'll check it out. Thanks!
>BTW, Doug Coward seems to have the world's supply of T100's, but he says
>they're not laptops. I always assumed the rectangle in the upper right
>corner I had seen in pix was an LCD, but apparently not (is it a cartridge
>slot?).
Hmmm... I may still have to get one. Have take a look at a pic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
C'mon, guys... this whole MS vs. DoJ mess is turning into another
list-cluttering slug-fest.
Contrary to what MS would, apparently, like the world to believe, there
are choices when it comes to OS's. Run what best suits your needs and
desires, and don't bash others for doing the same.
Caveat emptor!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
>> Linux is free and it may be better (it's abosolute hell to install)
>
>I'd disagree with you on "absolute hell". It's much less difficult
>than the "historical" Unices that I've installed over the years on
>PDP-11's.
I have a shorter time installing Linux (Red Hat 5.0) than I do Windows
95/3.1!!! It's easy, if you're like me, using standard IDE/UDMA componets,
a PCI bus, etc.
>The only "difficult" Linux installs that I've done were when none of
>the commonly-distributed kernels had support for some particular
>device necessary for system operation (i.e. some obscure SCSI
>host adapter), and I had to do a kernel build on another system
>for this configuration first.
SCSI makes things difficult. Seriously. On this 'ere machine, the SCSI
contoller makes for... a partially cooled hell for instalation.
>On the other hand, many "free" Unix ports I've seen are not only
>absolute hell to install, mainly because the installation instructions/
>script are badly out of sync with the distributed binaries. NetBSD-VAX
>is what springs to mind at the moment!
I'll have to take your word on that. But then again, the first name usually
denotes a total genius!!! (Tim O'Reilly, Tim Berners-Lee...)
>Of course, it depends on what you're comparing against :-). From
>your other comments it sounds like your standard of reference is
>probably VMS, in which case I'll agree, by comparison Linux is
>absolute hell.
How 'bout comparing it to... FreeDOS? (http://www.freedos.org) I BTW,
support this idea entirely, as after Windows 98, MS said they arn't going to
include a DOS with Windows, so you'll need a DOS if MS isn't around/making
OS's. Actually, I think that MS has had a smart strategy in recent months.
Internet Explorer for Solaris, NetShow for Linux... I think that it's about
time that MS dropped their dead-weight which gives them little profits and
focus at what they're good at: Ease of use (on dirt cheap PC's), etc. Now,
I kinda like Windows, like MacOS for the rest of us. But I think that if MS
focused on other things, or stopped focusing on "We're the best at
everything" and started thinking "We could save money, time, and PR funds by
working on other OS's"... like making a cross NT-Linux.... that'd be COOL!!!
>Tim.
Yep.
Found this on the Obsolete Computer Helpline
(http://ncsc.dni.us/fun/user/tcc/cmuseum/helpline/helpline.htm) and
since all the buzz about NorthStar's on here lately I figured someone
might contact this person. I'm sure many of you are even nearby this guy
and could easily get him what he needs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Troxell <nitedriver(a)webtv.net>
Vineland, NJ US - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 12:08:26
Wanted: Boot Disk (and any other) for a Z-100 North Star Advantage.
If I remember correctly these are
special/different format/# of sectors than all others. Any help
would be greatly appreciated. This ex-Fuzzari of all
PC's is dead in water w/o it.
TIA,
John Troxell
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi. Are these the 286's that Zenith sold by the mass-quadrillions to the US
Gov't??? If so, they're pretty cool, when you get down to it. CPU's on a
backplane, they had a 386 upgrade, and even a 486 one, but the 386's didn't
sell, 486's were only prototypes, from what I can tell.
By pressing CRL+INS you could get into this WAY COOL Apple II like ROM
test program. Pleanty of RAM, etc. Trust me, I know. Every single day of
the week, I USE ONE OF THESE in math class. Cool retro use, don't you
agree??? It runs WP 5.1, they weren't equipped with Windows, but MS-DOS 5.0
(at least that's what I see, might have been 3.3), and some came with this
cool monitor that had a Amber/Green/Normal switch, but only worked well in
mono, not CGA mode.
Tim D. Hotze
This is too good! I just can't resist getting my two cents worth in!
At 06:23 PM 5/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Sure the DOS license was a big initial push, but to say it was solely
>responsible for the success of Microsoft is like saying the Model T is
>responsible for Ford having the best selling vehicle in America today.
Then you had better go back and look at automotive history. Ford was
just another car company among dozens, yes dozens, of similar companies
until they brought out the model T. That put them in the lead and they've
been there ever since. Since the model T they've bought up or plowed under
most of the competion with the exception of the other major companies like
GM and Chrysler. That seems to be the same strategy that MS is using. MS
Hell! ALL companies do it! I used to work for Martin Marietta, look at
all the competitors they've bought up in the last couple of years!
>
>Microsoft was a development products company, not an OS company. When I got
>here in 1988, I remember seeing a revenue pie chart at the company meeting.
>We were at around 60-70% revenue from development products like C++ &
>FORTRAN, with a big slice from apps like Word & Multiplan, and DOS revenue
>was a tiny slice.
Exactly and I'm sure that Win 95 or Win 98 will also be a tiny slice. MS
gives away the OS, then makes up the profit by selling you all the
applications that require that OS.
In a decade where everything had to be written directly
>to the hardware to get any speed out of the 8088, you can hardly say that
>the DOS license had much to do with the success of the dev products.
>
>Our first, all time most successful Windows app, Excel, that nuked the Lotus
>1-2-3 monopoly through ease of use and customer demand alone, was _ported
>from the Macintosh_. How exactly could we have leveraged our ownership of
>Windows to make Excel successful when it wasn't even written for Windows?
What do mean, wasn't written for Windows??? You certainly couldn't take
a Mac disk and put it in a PC with Windows and run it! It may have
ORIGINALLY been written for a Mac but it was certainly rewritten for
Windows. The Windows very only looked and actly like the Mac version, the
code was entirely rewritten.
>
>If IBM endorsing & bundling an OS makes it a monopoly, why is OS/2 dead?
Because (1) MS very publicly announced that they were dropping support
for it (2) MS (and others) never sold any significant application programs
for it.
That's exactly what a monoply is all about, the power to kill a rival
product through direct action or in this case a lack of action. That's why
DOJ and a lot of others would like to see MS's monopoly broken.
Joe
>
>etc.
>
>Kai
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com]
>Sent: Thursday, May 21, 1998 5:37 PM
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>Subject: RE: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ?
>
>
>On Thu, 21 May 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
>
>> We weren't, and aren't, Orwellian characters,
>> just folks trying to write software that people want to buy. Gee, I guess
>> it worked! So sue us!
>
>I think one reason Microsoft is being sued is that Microsoft software does
>not compete on the merits of the software alone. Windows 3.0 was the
>first almost barely usable/tolerable version of Windows. I'm not a Mac
>fan, but if you look at something like the Amiga and AmigaOS from 1985, it
>was such a clearly better operating system and windowing system PC
>environment compared to Microsoft's offering that if Microsoft had to
>compete on technical merit alone, they would have been out of business
>weeks after the Amiga's introduction.
>
>To suggest that Microsoft's success is due to writing software that people
>*want* to buy is disingenuous. Microsoft's success is due solely to the
>monopoly IBM gave them in 1982. To their credit, Microsoft is only about
>five years behind the curve. If IBM had kept the monopoly to themselves,
>we'd all be closer to ten years behind the curve.
>
>-- Doug
>
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)ricochet.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, 22 May 1998 3:18
Subject: Re: IBM PC DOS 1.00, anybody???
>At 10:17 PM 5/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>> anybody have IBM PC DOS 1.00? or know of where I may d/l it from the net
>>> somewhere??
>>
>>Lad, we don't do that here. Copyright situation. Besides, PC-DOS 1.0
>
>I don't know for sure, but knowing M$, I strongly suspect that they still
>retain the rights to it as a commercial product (and all versions since),
>unlike Apple, which makes the 6.0.x and 7.0 versions of the MacOS available
>for free from their FTP site.
>
>Perhaps the original poster was thinking that M$ might be so gracious as to
>do as Apple did? (Woooheee.... Boy, I crack myself up sometimes... 8^)
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
>
>Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
>roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
>Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
>San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>
well there was talk at sometime that Microsoft was going to make DOS
shareware.........
dont know what evunated out of it but isnt Win 98 the last OS to have
MS-DOS??
so whenever they release a next OS that would be the time they make DOS
shareware.........
this is probably so they dont have to support it anymore........
I have lots of a 780, and lots of a 785.
Which boards were changed when upgrading to a 785? Can I somehow combine
the two and get a CPU? If I can, I can get a set of backplanes from ATS,
but they're supposed to be spares for the VAX they've already decomissioned.
They don't really want to give them to me unless I have a use for them.
-------
I remember asking a while ago, and only a couple of people on the
list had a copy
>Xenix? Rare?
>
>> 3)Famous software, like VisiCalc
>
>Way too much according to what I see some packages selling on the net
for
>($50-$100).
>
>> Should these things be expensive?
>
>Depends. How much do you want to pay?
>
>> More specifically, and perhaps more to the point, do you think that
>> a copy of VisiCalc (black binder/manual c1981) and MS Multiplan are
>> each worth $5?
>
>Not bad. Considering I've seen some fools pay ten times that.
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ever onward.
>
> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
> [Last web page update: 05/11/98]
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I'm sorry if am a little slow, but why is that a curse?
>
>Remember the old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times".
>--
>Ward Griffiths
>They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
>Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I have two of these MFM to SCSI adapters up for grabs. They screw onto
the bottom of an MFM drive and convert the drive from MFM to SCSI.
(It might be RLL instead of MFM.) Complete with cables.
I don't have any docs, but it appears that you can get something from
the Adaptec FAX number. See http://www.adaptec.com and search for
ACB 4070.
If anyone wants these for the cost of shipping, please let me know.
Dave
>Sure the DOS license was a big initial push, but to say it was solely
>responsible for the success of Microsoft is like saying the Model T is
>responsible for Ford having the best selling vehicle in America today.
Exactly. It's kind of like how scientists can associate one thing with
another, such as "Salt increases people's chances of having a heart attack,
therefore having little/no salt reduces it". It's not true; see if ANY
living being can go without salt. If DOJ's going to punish MS, the LEAST
they could to would be to get their facts strait.
>Microsoft was a development products company, not an OS company. When I
got
>here in 1988, I remember seeing a revenue pie chart at the company meeting.
>We were at around 60-70% revenue from development products like C++ &
>FORTRAN, with a big slice from apps like Word & Multiplan, and DOS revenue
>was a tiny slice. In a decade where everything had to be written directly
>to the hardware to get any speed out of the 8088, you can hardly say that
>the DOS license had much to do with the success of the dev products.
I think that you'll agree with me when I say that revenues arn't everything,
and in some cases, anything. Take Internet Explorer, for example. I'd
imagine that the product (which, BTW, is an excellent browser) doesn't make
much, if any money, due to the fact that the only way you pay for it is $5
for a CD or $30 or whatever for Internet Explorer Plus. But still, IE makes
up between 30-50% of the browser wars.
>Our first, all time most successful Windows app, Excel, that nuked the
Lotus
>1-2-3 monopoly through ease of use and customer demand alone, was _ported
>from the Macintosh_. How exactly could we have leveraged our ownership of
>Windows to make Excel successful when it wasn't even written for Windows?
Exactly. MS shouldn't be punished for making good desisions or good luck.
Now, the ONLY thing that would actually call for an anti-trust hearing would
be if the Gov't offered MS money for something. DOJ really doesn't know
what they're talking about once they get to computers. That judge was happy
to see the IE logo off his computer!!! The disputed files still existed.
>If IBM endorsing & bundling an OS makes it a monopoly, why is OS/2 dead?
IBM... now, I don't think that they're guilty, but they call for anti-trust
hearings. They make their own hard drives, OS's, chips (x86 and otherwise),
PC's, mainframes.... talk about BUNDLING...
A good point, which I think needs to be made is that the PC industry has
reached an odd point. It's at an area where products can be hyped enough
for a idiot with some cash to want to get a PC for a couple of reasons. For
instance, someone was talking to their sister and was asking me for help on
the Internet, and he was concerned that her sister's Mac wasn't a Pentium.
All he knew was how the Pentium was hyped. PowerPC was not, except for a
3-6 month Motorola campaign. Seriously, I happen to kind of like Windows.
It's pretty easy to use. Now, due to Autoplay in Windows 95, I can get even
the most BASIC to install a program. Needless to say, that's something that
has considerably lowered my phone bill. ;-)
>Kai
Don't worry. We're mostly geeks on this list, meaning we want the
Government to stay in it's own territory. Hey... anyone think about
launching anti-trust hearings against the government/IRS??? They're
monopolies....
BTW, what exactly do you do at Microsoft????
Ciao,
Tim D. Hotze
From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com]
I'm sorry if am a little slow, but why is that a curse?
>
>Remember the old Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times".
>--
When you are sitting on the customer's computer room floor at 3am, and
the paychecks are distributed at 7am, to the 300 angry miners who
dynamited cars during the last strike, and that new "interesting"
technology isn't working, then you will understand why it is a curse.
Jack Peacock
At 04:57 PM 5/21/98 -0700, Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
>
>In regard to Windows being a clone of the Macintosh, that's also false. The
>intended competitive target for Windows 1.0 was somebody's PC based product
>which in turn was intended as a competitor to IBM's TopView.
That's not to say, of course, that Windows 1.0 would not have been
better had it cloned the Mac. :-)
>People think Windows was successful because of some
>big Microsoft master plan, which is ridiculous. It didn't sell hardly at
>all until it really took off with 3.0,
I was one of a handful of guys who wrote a Windows 2.0 illustration
program that we sold to SPC that became Harvard Draw. Speaking with
that experience in mind, programming for Win 2.0 was hell on Earth. :-)
All the fun of 16-bit x86 plus a toddling GUI API.
Relax, Kai. Some of us are hoping the DOJ would leave Microsoft
alone, and hope they don't go after the next software company.
("Why, I'm shocked, shocked, shocked that one software company
would wish another would dry up!" Government officials who accept
covert international espionage are surprised by corporate managers
playing "us-vs.-them" in blustery memos?) And this wouldn't be
the first time a Mac-flavored columnist had a strange spin on the world.
At 07:37 PM 5/21/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote:
>I'm not a Mac
>fan, but if you look at something like the Amiga and AmigaOS from 1985, it
>was such a clearly better operating system and windowing system PC
>environment compared to Microsoft's offering that if Microsoft had to
The Amiga's GUI, Intuition, will go down in history as being almost
religiously nonconformist and anti-standard - in the first few years,
the evangelists seemed in love with the idea that, for example,
every program's Open/Save dialogs would be hand-rolled and completely
different from the next. By the time they changed their mind about
that, it was too late.
It didn't track most resources - even Win 1.0 tried to do that.
Another great flaw of the Amiga core (on which Intuition relied) was its
lack of task-to-task memory protection, indeed, a reliance on free
access to all memory by all tasks. The Amiga had great multitasking
and a generally clean feel to its "Exec" mainly because the guy who
was assigned to write it was wise enough to recognize that
he was no expert, and picked up a textbook on OS design. This
free access to all memory gave the machine and its custom hardware
its lean-and-mean feel, but it wasn't scalable or very portable.
That's about it. It inherited all sorts of crud from Martin Richard's
B and BCPL languages, for heaven's sake, because Amiga Corp. wasn't
capable (given CBM's time and money constraints) of producing an OS
to sit on top of the Exec, so they grafted his Tripos OS on it instead.
I can say all this only because I devoted many years and much soul
to the Amiga. :-)
Early Windows suffered the most from the 16-bit legacy of the Intel
processor. At least it attempted to abstract the graphics interface,
tracked resources, encouraged standard GUIs, etc.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
Compound emulation, anyone?
BeOS emulating MacOS emulating Win3.1 emulating Apple][e to play Dig Dug.
http://www.bedope.com/digdug.jpg
How far could one go with this cool silliness?
R.
--
Robert Arnold
Managing Editor
The MonkeyPool
WebSite Content Development
http://www.monkeypool.com
Creator and Eminence Grise
Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire.
muahahahahaaaaa
http://www.warbaby.com
Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies.
<could be made for the Wright Brothers, etc. No invention springs wholly
<formed from teh forehead of the inventor, everything builds on previous
<innovations. Xerox invented the GUI for all practical purposes.
Rather than say "Xerox invented..." I'd say they codified, or otherwise
choherently assembled many known concepts into a working system.
<planning on inventing an airplane. And besides, the GUI wasn't even a sp
<in Apple's eye in 1979, they were just introducing the Apple II+ at that
<time!
It also forgets the DRI work on GUI kernel (GEM).
<The Xerox Star was introduced in May, 1981, and the Apple Lisa 1 wasn't
<announced until January, 1983. It shipped in June of that year, more tha
<two years after the Xerox. Two years is a freaking LIFETIME in the compu
<industry. What is this columnist smoking?
agreed!
<competitor was Quarterdeck's DesqView, partly GEM too, and some other thi
<most people have forgotten like VM/386, not the Mac.
Desqview was the leader for a while and rather good as well.
<user interface because it was graphical, we did it because it was WYSIWYG
<note that the first real Windows app was Aldus PageMaker, a desktop
<publishing application. People think Windows was successful because of s
WYSIWYG rather than WYGINS (what you get is no surprise) was the driving
force. To do that you needed a system that was not bound to hardware
and could scale clip and draw or your dead.
<interface must be genuinely easy to use and that doing things that way ar
<natural. There's this misperception that there's some bad blood between
<Microsoft and Apple because they sued us, which couldn't be farther from
<truth. When the lawsuit came through, we weren't saying "Those bastards!
<we were saying "Huh? Why would they do that to their buddies?" And we
I remember the microsoft softcard that was a z80 for Apple that ran CP/M
supplied with MS Basic! It was a case of making neat products that worked!
If anything it was DRIs lack of agressive drive that made an opening
that someone had to fill with DOS and later winders.
PS I like most MS products mostly it's their marketing strategies that
are a bit suspect and that has little to do with product.
Allison
The assertion that Xerox did not "invent" the GUI and that many of the
concepts had existed separately prior to their fusion at PARC is both true
and completely irrelevant, in exactly the same way that a similar assertion
could be made for the Wright Brothers, etc. No invention springs wholly
formed from teh forehead of the inventor, everything builds on previous
innovations. Xerox invented the GUI for all practical purposes.
Likewise, whether Apple was "planning" on implementing a GUI is completely
facetious. To return to the Wright Brothers analogy, lots of people were
planning on inventing an airplane. And besides, the GUI wasn't even a spark
in Apple's eye in 1979, they were just introducing the Apple II+ at that
time!
The Xerox Star was introduced in May, 1981, and the Apple Lisa 1 wasn't
announced until January, 1983. It shipped in June of that year, more than
two years after the Xerox. Two years is a freaking LIFETIME in the computer
industry. What is this columnist smoking?
In regard to Windows being a clone of the Macintosh, that's also false. The
intended competitive target for Windows 1.0 was somebody's PC based product
which in turn was intended as a competitor to IBM's TopView.
I was here in the Windows 2.x/3.0 days, in fact, I was the beta
administrator for 3.0, and I can tell you that competing with the Macintosh
was the furthest thing from our minds. Nobody in the dev group had worked
on a Mac, we didn't have any Macs anywhere in the area, and nobody ever
mentioned the Mac as we made product decisions. In those days, our
competitor was Quarterdeck's DesqView, partly GEM too, and some other things
most people have forgotten like VM/386, not the Mac.
We were not trying to compete with or clone the Mac. We were trying to (and
this is not a corporate 'line', I'm serious, I was there) 1. make the PC
easier to use, and 2. break the '640K barrier'. We didn't do a graphical
user interface because it was graphical, we did it because it was WYSIWYG --
note that the first real Windows app was Aldus PageMaker, a desktop
publishing application. People think Windows was successful because of some
big Microsoft master plan, which is ridiculous. It didn't sell hardly at
all until it really took off with 3.0, and that's just because the
incredibly small dev team (like 25 including management) just wanted to do
some really cool software. Hell, at launch, we all had buttons that said
"Windows 3.0 - It's Cool." We weren't, and aren't, Orwellian characters,
just folks trying to write software that people want to buy. Gee, I guess
it worked! So sue us!
Remember that Windows back then wasn't remotely similar to the Mac apart
>from it being graphical and using icons. Any similarity to the Mac that
grew over time was the result of tons of usability studies with people who
had never used a computer before. If implementing features via usability
studies makes Windows more like the Mac, that only means that Apple's user
interface must be genuinely easy to use and that doing things that way are
natural. There's this misperception that there's some bad blood between
Microsoft and Apple because they sued us, which couldn't be farther from the
truth. When the lawsuit came through, we weren't saying "Those bastards!",
we were saying "Huh? Why would they do that to their buddies?" And we
never held a grudge either, up to and including our recent financial
investments in Apple and our continuing successful software line for the
Mac.
Kai
(my opinions, not my employer's)
-----Original Message-----
From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 1998 4:17 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: cat Xerox | Apple | Microsoft ?
I am curious as to the veracity of the article at
http://www.MacKiDo.com/DarkSide/Coates.html
It is a criticism of another article, partly quoted. The original
article says the Apple got their idea from xerox in 1979, and MS
got their ideas from Apple, and now they have copied the Mac w/Win98
The article in the link argues that Win98 is much worse than the mac,
which I agree with. I am wondering about its statement that Apple
knew all about GUI before 1979 with their Lisa. AFAIK, the lisa
is ~1982...
The author argues that the other one should get his facts and MS
propaganda in check. Is he practicing hypocrisY?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Hey, this whole deal with Microsoft and the government anti-trust lawsuit
is pretty historic. Unless Microsoft all of a sudden decides to come back
to the table (I think at this point the egos have bloated out so far that
they are irreversibly colliding with one another) then it will be very
interesting to see what comes of this. Ten years from now we'll be
looking back, much like we did when they killed Ma Bell, and for better or
worse, lamenting on the days when Microsoft was king.
I think it went from interesting side note to full-blown event when
Microsoft said "screw it" and decided to go ahead and ship Win98. That
was a decidedly brash decision. It will be very fun to watch this unfold
over the next few weeks.
Take notes, all you amateur computer historians. This is the kind of
stuff people always refer back to when discussing the politics of business
and the forces that change industry.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 05/11/98]
I am curious as to the veracity of the article at
http://www.MacKiDo.com/DarkSide/Coates.html
It is a criticism of another article, partly quoted. The original
article says the Apple got their idea from xerox in 1979, and MS
got their ideas from Apple, and now they have copied the Mac w/Win98
The article in the link argues that Win98 is much worse than the mac,
which I agree with. I am wondering about its statement that Apple
knew all about GUI before 1979 with their Lisa. AFAIK, the lisa
is ~1982...
The author argues that the other one should get his facts and MS
propaganda in check. Is he practicing hypocrisY?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
A few questions:
Recently acquired a Heathkit computer. Looks to be a pc compatable (din
keyboard plug, 1/2 height 5 /14, etc). Plate on back says model U 148. Any
clues?
This is not quite a classic, but almost there. I have a few Mac Portables (the
original model 5120). Inside one was a add-on card in the ROM slot (not the
RAM expansion). The card has two roms on it labeled: Esprit Rom 1.087"
dated 7/14/89. The card itself says Esprit Rom. Anyone know what this could
be. The Mac doesn't seem to behave any differently with or without the card.
Also, I have another portable that has no identification silkscreened on to the
bottom where it would normally be. Could this be some type of prototype,
since it looks like it never did have anything printed there (i.e. no one removed
it).
Totally off-topic. I also just got a Code-A-Phone 700 from Western Electric.
It's an old answering machine that uses some sort of funky reel to reel to store
messages. I think it was only meant to be used at CO's as it says "not for
resale" on the bottom. The power connector is a weird three prong male
connector with two cylindrical prongs and one flat prong (the opposite of todays
common connector). This unit is from the 70's. Again, any clues? Or any
pointers to where (other lists, web sites, books) I might look.
And finally, anyone know of a good way to remove the dark brown adhesive left
on my the metallic inventory tags used by some companies? I've try rubbing
alcohol, wd40, and goo gone. I'm afraid to try anything too strong as it might
hurt the case.
TIA
George
From: Daniel A. Seagraves [mailto:DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com]
Wait a minute! ECC uses 2 bits?
That leaves 9.
9, 18, 27, *36*.
Hmm!
Something 36 bits maybe?
-------
There were several types of ECC schemes. Some worked at the byte level,
some by the word. PDP memory boards commonly uses 22 bit words (16 data
+ 6 ECC), or accessible as 11 bit byte (8 data + 3 ECC). Memory boards
based around Intel 256K DRAM controllers also supported this type of ECC
(I think it was the 8206/8207 chipset?). The Intel ECC scheme was neat
because it would scan for errors during refresh cycles, "bit scrubbing".
Memory is vague, but I believe the 11 bit ECC byte was a Reed-Solomon
type ECC pattern?
Jack Peacock
On May 21, 14:46, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:
> Subject: What does an M8579 go into?
> The book says 11-bit MOS RAM. What's 11 bits?
To a first approximation, 2 more than 9 :-)
It's probably ECC memory; ie one step better than parity in that it can
correct (not just detect) single-bit errors. ECC memory was used on 11/44
and 11/83, 11/93. How big is the M8579? QBus? Unibus? I can't find it
in my guide.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
IBM didn't beat the DOJ as much as President Regan dropped the suit in
the
early 80s (82 or 83 I think) as part of his ``Smaller Government'' or
``Business Friendly Government'' or something like that. Before that,
it
had been going on for 10 years.
That's what I mean, the DOJ can't sustain long lawsuits, the
administrations change and the zealots get the rug pulled out from under
them. Same may happen here, DOJ gets something started but when Steve
Forbes tales office in 2001, the DOJ suit is history the next day.
Jack Peacock
A coworker and I are both interested in acquiring some surplus color NeXT
pizza-boxes which a neighboring company has. However there is only one
of the DSP/speaker/ADB breakout boxes. They have also been gutted of
hard drives and memory. So do any of you know where I could find extras?
Especially the speakers and the NeXT OS - I'm assuming I could use normal
FP-mode 72-pin SIMMS (that looks like the size slot they used) and a SCSI-II
hard drive. Also, the monitor connection looks just like Sun's so I'm
wondering if they are interchangeable - same res., refresh rate, etc.? They
look like 21" monitors.
Please reply to "all" since my coworker is probably not on this list.
--
_______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud(a)goodnet.com
(_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud
__) | | \__________________________________________________________________
* Linux * Khoros * sci fi * 808 State * Gravis Ultrasound * VRML * X window *
Kai-
I am interested in purchasing the North Star Horzion. I don't have a
trade so would be a cash exchange.
Do you have any info on the characteristics of the Horizon such as
floppies, memory, monitor, keyboard, and overall condition?
Thanks
Randy Staponski
>>Do you think that there is any chance that Microsoft is now so big
that
it can afford better lawyers that the Department of Justice?
Good chance, after all IBM beat the DOJ, I hope Bill can too. History
shows the DOJ can't sustain long drawn out proceedings against large,
well-funded companies. In this case attrition works in favor of MS, not
against it. Let's hope Gates hangs tough and keeps the DOJ do-gooders
out of the computer business.
Jack Peacock
At 10:49 PM 5/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Toshiba T1000
>
>Very common, but worth $50 on eBay!
I think just about everything is worth at least $50 on ebay... 8^) (Not
too common, it's my first.)
>> HP 110
>
>Nice, one of the first clam-shell laptops (after the GRiD Compass, and
>before the DG/One). I hope you have HP-IL cables and software!
I believe it has PC2622 (precursor to Reflections by WRQ) in ROM? (HP Term
emulator). Anyway, I've got 1 HP-IL cable (from an HP75D) but am still in
search of an appropriate PS.
>Army surplus or what?
Nope, HMR. Btw, one of the 1520's (iirc) had a sheet of paper taped to it,
a print-out from some fixed assets pgm. Listed the purchase date (iirc) as
12/89, and the original cost as $4800+. Current (depreciated) value is
$0... 8^)
>> Is the DB25 for an external floppy,
>> since the HD seems to be where the floppy should be?
>
>Right again. The external floppy seems to be hard to find. I should have
>a couple of them later this week, though :-)
Perhaps the ones I picked up will fit; I'll have to give it a try?
>
>> The HD makes some
>> rather unhappy noises, though it seems to work fine; anyone have any
>> suggestions for the best way to get the data/OS off the hard drive in case
>> of failure? (Just copy to floppies?) It comes up in something called
>> (iirc) InteGRiD; anyone know anything about this?
>
>InteGRiD is a version of GRiD/OS that you can boot from MS-DOS (usually by
>running GRID.EXE). I've never seen InteGRiD in a machine that didn't also
>have MS-DOS on it. If you have MS-DOS, you can just use laplink. If you
>don't have MS-DOS, you'll need a GRiDServer or a floppy.
I was able to drop to DOS, so I'll see if I can get laplink onto it. But
hopefully the floppy drives will work. You wouldn't know what type of HD
is in there, would you?
>Reprinted w/o permission from Newsbytes:
>
><<
[...]
>European marketplace. The T1000 model which weighs in at 2.9 kg (or about
[...]
>(about US$ 1400), is supplied with MS-DOS 3.2 and a 3.5 inch disk drive.
>This model, which replaces the old T1100, is designed to fill in the gap
[...]
>>>
Interesting. Toshiba's spec files say it came with MS-DOS 2.11. They seem
to have trouble keeping their model numbers in order. 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: Desie Hay <desieh(a)southcom.com.au>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Rare systems] & Garry Kildor
>yes well, I can't spell, and I think that Garry Kildor could have been the
>bill gates of today if he had played his cards right
I'm sure a lot of people wish Bill Gates were in Gary's shoes (so to speak).
I've got some Compute Magazines from the '80s, and some ST Informers (and a
few misc. other mags) if anyone is interested.
Technically, they belong to ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area Computer Users
Society, so I'd like to get something for the club for them. (Or, offer me
portable computer stuff, donald duck stuff, or miniature Land Rovers and
I'll make a contribution on your behalf for them.)
e-mail me privately if interested. Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Digging thru the VAX 780 manuals...
They have here some crud on how the microcode works. Where it starts and ends,
field definitions, etc.
I know basically how microcode works. It's the one-cycle instructions like
"gate data bus to address bus" or "gate data bus to ALU".
One MOV can be 2-5 microinstructions.
The large question I have is: How does the MOV translate to microcode?
Does the VAX figure a microcode offset based on the opcode? Is there a table
of entry points somewhere? How is this done?
Another thing, the VAX 780 was microcoded from the console RX01. Does anyone
have a copy of that RX01? Can anyone get a disk image? What else was on there?
(RT-11? P/OS?)
Just being annoying...
-------
Speaking of Zenith 248 computers, does anybody have a guesstimate on
the amount of tempested Zenith 248's produced? They typically are
labelled Zenith Inteq.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Questions, questions
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 5/21/98 1:18 AM
Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
> George Currie wrote:
>
> > Recently acquired a Heathkit computer. Looks to be a pc compatable (din
> > keyboard plug, 1/2 height 5 /14, etc). Plate on back says model U 148.
Any
> > clues?
>
> I forget exactly when Zenith folded the operation, but I am willing
> to hazard a guess that _any_ Heath product is a classic under the
> rules of this mailing list. Even if it was a do-it-yourself multi-
> meter.
I'm sure all the computers are but some training items are not since they
still
do
training. There is a mailing list like this for Heath enthusiasts but it deals
with ham equipment and test equipment and all that is classic and antique in
nature. I have a Heath tube tester that dates back to 1967 myself and there
are
people that have items back to some of the first kits and unbuilt kits as
well.
The Z248's I have are dated 1987 and 1888 so I guess they qualify for this
list.
Zenith Data Systems is now a separate company and has a web page at
http://www.zds.com and it appears that their main focus is government and
corporate machines rather than the everyday person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
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From: Russ/Alice Blakeman <rhblake(a)bbtel.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Questions, questions
References: <B0000003060(a)skitzo.pauls.net> <3563A52A.CFFD145E(a)cnct.com>
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At 12:16 PM 5/20/98 +0100, you wrote:
>(one for regular posting to the list maybe? a list of good ftp sites /
>web sites for various machines... or de we have a regular FAQ anyway?)
I try to collect relevant URL's for each machine in my collection (and
recommend others do so as well) and put links to them on my web pages for
that machine.
So, if anyone knows of any pages related to any of the machines I have (see
<http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/> for an almost up-to-date list), I would
love to hear of them, even if I don't have a page for that specific machine
yet.
Other than that, CHAC has a pretty good list (go to <http://www.chac.org/>)
even though I'm not on it yet. 8^( (Kip has a good excuse, though -- he's
been writing (and rewriting everytime the Justice Dept has a press
conference) a book on Win98.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 10:17 PM 5/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> anybody have IBM PC DOS 1.00? or know of where I may d/l it from the net
>> somewhere??
>
>Lad, we don't do that here. Copyright situation. Besides, PC-DOS 1.0
I don't know for sure, but knowing M$, I strongly suspect that they still
retain the rights to it as a commercial product (and all versions since),
unlike Apple, which makes the 6.0.x and 7.0 versions of the MacOS available
for free from their FTP site.
Perhaps the original poster was thinking that M$ might be so gracious as to
do as Apple did? (Woooheee.... Boy, I crack myself up sometimes... 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 11:11 PM 5/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Haddock claims the T1100 was Toshiba's first laptop; just by looking at the
>
>Oops, I forgot to mention that neither the T1000 nor the T1100 were
>Toshiba's first laptop. I don't have one, but I think their first was the
>T100, a CP/M laptop from 1982
Okay, where can I get one? 8^) Toshiba doesn't have a spec file for it;
I'll have to do some searching around to find out more about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 08:11 PM 5/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> Army surplus or what?
>
>I'm guessing HMR... Open w/o appointment last Saturday?
Actually, it was Friday. 8^) Yep, HMR. I *love* that place. I could
spend $200/week easy, if I had it. 8^)
Btw, was there someone else from the list at HMR last Friday? The guy
(Rick?) I dealt with said someone else had been in that morning who was
into GRiD's.
Anyway, now that they're open on alternate Saturdays, perhaps we should be
planning a bay area get-together?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Are you refering to the original 16KB-64KB motherboard 5150 PC or do
you mean the 64KB-256KB motherboard 5150 PC? I have only seen two
original 16KB-64KB 5150 PC's. I'm certain there must be plenty of them
out there but I never see them. I see the 64KB-256KB motherboard
5150's everywhere.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Prices to pay for old computers...
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 5/21/98 5:45 AM
email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
One of the best examples of this would be the original IBM PC.......
now apparently the dudes on ebay say $100 for a IBM PC well if you have one
in its original box will all manuals and
all original parts, manuals, disks etc this would be a reasobabley fair
price to pay. .999% of all IBM PC I come accross
have been upgraded,
treated badly, hacked, and far from thier original condiditon, and there are
no manuals in site..............
but if you have one with only the CPU at that it well, perhaps $0-10 is a
fairer price........
You cant just say that xxxxx computer is worh $xx amount...... you have to
allow for some systems that have manuals, disks,
boxes etc.............
systhems in these conditions are few and far between............
this is just my opinion on the subject so I would like to hear other peoples
comments..............
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From: "Desie Hay" <desieh(a)southcom.com.au>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Prices to pay for old computers...
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email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
One of the best examples of this would be the original IBM PC.......
now apparently the dudes on ebay say $100 for a IBM PC well if you have one
in its original box will all manuals and
all original parts, manuals, disks etc this would be a reasobabley fair
price to pay. .999% of all IBM PC I come accross
have been upgraded,
treated badly, hacked, and far from thier original condiditon, and there are
no manuals in site..............
but if you have one with only the CPU at that it well, perhaps $0-10 is a
fairer price........
You cant just say that xxxxx computer is worh $xx amount...... you have to
allow for some systems that have manuals, disks,
boxes etc.............
systhems in these conditions are few and far between............
this is just my opinion on the subject so I would like to hear other peoples
comments..............
>
>> More specifically, and perhaps more to the point, do you think that
>> a copy of VisiCalc (black binder/manual c1981) and MS Multiplan are
>> each worth $5?
>
>Not bad. Considering I've seen some fools pay ten times that.
>
Well I must be one of the fools because I would pay well for original 1981
PC software if the disks are still good. Its very hard to find around here.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ward Donald Griffiths III <gram(a)cnct.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 20 May 1998 14:00
Subject: Re: [Rare systems]
>Desie Hay wrote:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ward Donald Griffiths III <gram(a)cnct.com>
>> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>> <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>> Date: Tuesday, 19 May 1998 12:14
>> Subject: Re: [Rare systems]
>>
>> >Desie Hay wrote:
>> >
>> >> I dont think anybody ported unix to the Lisa...well it wasnt a
commerical
>> >> thing....
>> >> im not sure on this but if someone knows for sure ill like to hear
from
>> them
>> >>
>> >> check out my Lisa web page......
>> >
>> >Well, there was a Lisa running Unix at OCC '84 (the last) in Anaheim.
>> >At least one. At the Apple booth. Since I'd been playing with Xenix
>> >(at the Radio Shack Computer Center where I did tech support) for well
>> >over a year by then, I was actually not too impressed -- it was far
>> >from ready for prime time. But it was definitely Unix. It just wasn't
>> >commercial. Especially since Tandy Xenix systems cost a fraction and
>> >actually had support (around Los Angeles, that was mostly me -- with
>> >some good documentation and a good line to Fort Worth).
>
>> yes ive seen pictures of Garry Kildor with a Lisa at his side...
>> They had a version under development but i almost sure they never
released
>> it.....
>
>Gary Kildall did CP/M, he may have had some relationship with CP/M 68K
>for Apple platforms (I don't think so, though he did have some input
>into the port to the TRS-80 Model 16), but I seriously doubt that he
>had anything to to do with Lisa Unix or the later A/UX for the "real"
>Macintoshes. Gary Kildall was _not_ a Unix type, and I can't think of a
>way to misspell any name of a Unix god "Garry Kildor".
>--
>Ward Griffiths
>They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
>Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
>
yes well, I can't spell, and I think that Garry Kildor could have been the
bill gates of today if he had played his cards right
remember IBM went to him first before they went to Microsoft for a OS for
their 'then' new PC.....
he turned them down............. If had CP/M on the IBM PC he would have
been able to do the same thing as what Billy Gates
did resell it to other companies............
oh well its funney how things turn out.........
I know that we recently discussed fair prices for hardware, but what
are fair prices for software? I know that there must be hundreds
of thousands of titles, but I have some specific questions.
1)Software that once WAS expensive, like old versions of AutoCAD,
SPSS, etc.
2)Rare software, like Xenix
3)Famous software, like VisiCalc
Should these things be expensive?
More specifically, and perhaps more to the point, do you think that
a copy of VisiCalc (black binder/manual c1981) and MS Multiplan are
each worth $5?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
It would be interesting to see the original QDOS...
>Lad, we don't do that here. Copyright situation. Besides, PC-DOS 1.0
>was total crap, you'd want 1.25 to do anything. However, you can step
>over to www.caldera.com and pick up the latest DR-DOS (though I liked
>things better when they called it OpenDOS), a much better descendent of
>CP/M than MS-DOS was.
>--
>Ward Griffiths
>They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
>Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Anyone want to take a stab at helping this young (or old, who cares)
lady out?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebecca Young <Rebecca_Young(a)hotmail.com>
Sydney, NSW Australia - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 23:17:42
Does anyone know how to get information off 5&1/4" floppies
that apparently are from around the late 70s, early 80s
and were done on a WANG system?
I've got an emulator or something like it, but don't know
any of the keyboard commands or mappings...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
<Some non-clones (such as the DEC Rainbow) ran Windows; basically DEC
<wrote or contracted for the device drivers necessary to make it work.
<I don't recall whether Windows 2.x ran on the 'bow; I didn't have access
<to one during that timeframe.
I know 2.11 was released by DRC for the Rainbow. I still have media
with that on it (used as blanks).
However the cpu was still intel (8088). I think winders didn't run on
the 80186(8) used in one of the tandys and a few oddballs. mostly because
the 186 has some on board peripherals (DMA and interrupts) that were not
PCclone compatable. The '188 cpu was basically 8088/V20
Allison
>I know that we recently discussed fair prices for hardware, but what
>are fair prices for software? I know that there must be hundreds
>of thousands of titles, but I have some specific questions.
>
>1)Software that once WAS expensive, like old versions of AutoCAD,
>SPSS, etc.
>2)Rare software, like Xenix
>3)Famous software, like VisiCalc
>Should these things be expensive?
>More specifically, and perhaps more to the point, do you think that
>a copy of VisiCalc (black binder/manual c1981) and MS Multiplan are
>each worth $5?
Good topic! I was just thinking about the same thing the other day.
I would certainly drop $5 on an original Visicalc, and maybe that for an old
Multiplan.
The nice thing is, it shouldn't be hard to find them for that price either.
Old software is NOT attracting the attention of old hardware. But why is
that? For the life of me, I dunno. But hey - I'm happy it's cheap - it means
I can still get some while the gettin's good.
What would I think is collectable?
Version 1 of anything that later became famous. (DOS, Windows, Visicalc,
Lotus, etc)
Oddball packaging (Lotus Symphony, early Infocom games)
Big-time failures and dead-ends (Lotus Jazz, GEM, Visi-ON)
Software from the cassette and paper-tape era (Apple Brickout, Microsoft
Altair BASIC)
My .02
--Larry
<desieh(a)southcom.com.au>wrote:
>>anybody have IBM PC DOS 1.00? or know of where I may d/l it from the
>> net somewhere??
"Richard A. Cini" <rcini(a)email.msn.com> wrote:
> I'm sure that I can find some way to get you the 1.1 diskette.
Rich,
Just attrib the system files:
attrib -h -s a:ibm*.com
Zip all the files to your hard drive
pkzip -arp c:dos11.zip a:*.*
reattrib the system files
attrib +h +s a:ibm*.com
and then sent the zip file to him by e-mail
He can then format a 360K disk and copy the files to it and
reattrib the system files.
Boot with that disk and format a 320K disk.
Attrib the system files and copy all of the files to the 320K disk
Reattrib the system files.
(I would make sure that the two system files were copied to a new disk
before any of the other files and in the same order that they were
on the original disk)
That should work "in theory".
My version 1.1 is a backup and I'm not sure if it contains any extra
files. How does this directory listing compare to your disk?
Volume in drive A has no label
Directory of A:\
IBMBIO COM 1920 05-07-82 12:00p
IBMDOS COM 6400 05-07-82 12:00p
COMMAND COM 4959 05-07-82 12:00p
FORMAT COM 3816 05-07-82 12:00p
CHKDSK COM 1720 05-07-82 12:00p
SYS COM 605 05-07-82 12:00p
DISKCOPY COM 2008 05-07-82 12:00p
DISKCOMP COM 1640 05-07-82 12:00p
COMP COM 1649 05-07-82 12:00p
EXE2BIN EXE 1280 05-07-82 12:00p
MODE COM 2509 05-07-82 12:00p
EDLIN COM 2392 05-07-82 12:00p
DEBUG COM 5999 05-07-82 12:00p
LINK EXE 41856 05-07-82 12:00p
BASIC COM 11392 05-07-82 12:00p
BASICA COM 16768 05-07-82 12:00p
ART BAS 1920 05-07-82 12:00p
SAMPLES BAS 2432 05-07-82 12:00p
MORTGAGE BAS 6272 05-07-82 12:00p
COLORBAR BAS 1536 05-07-82 12:00p
CALENDAR BAS 3840 05-07-82 12:00p
MUSIC BAS 8704 05-07-82 12:00p
DONKEY BAS 3584 05-07-82 12:00p
CIRCLE BAS 1664 05-07-82 12:00p
PIECHART BAS 2304 05-07-82 12:00p
SPACE BAS 1920 05-07-82 12:00p
BALL BAS 2048 05-07-82 12:00p
COMM BAS 4352 05-07-82 12:00p
28 file(s) 147489 bytes
7168 bytes free
=========================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=========================================
Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com>
>Oops, I forgot to mention that neither the T1000 nor the T1100 were
>Toshiba's first laptop. I don't have one, but I think their first was the
>T100, a CP/M laptop from 1982 (not to be confused with the pen-based >T100X
or the pentium T100CS).
Shouldn't a laptop have a screen? I have two T100s and neither has
a built-in display.
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum/mtoshiba.htm
And thanks for the infomation on the T1000.
=========================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=========================================
I just heard that Daniel Meyer, the founder of SwTPC, passed away
this past Saturday, May 16th, 1998. Although we never met, he
had a positive impact on my life, and on the lives of many others.
A moment of silence is in order.
Bill.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:43:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: The Adept <adept(a)Mercury.mcs.net>
To: bill.sheehan(a)stoneweb.com
Subject: Re: Another EBay absurdity
I've actually talked to the #3 bidder and the item is back up for auction and
is currently priced at around 203.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=14365349
Cheers,
Dan
On Wed, 20 May 1998 bill.sheehan(a)stoneweb.com wrote:
> Now take a look at the feedback. You'll find that the two high bidders are bogus. The winning bid was actually the #3 bidder, who would be within
> his rights to decline the honor. The only way we'll know how much this *really* sold for is to check back in a couple of weeks and see who (if
> anyone) gets positive feedback from the seller.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "kroma" <kroma(a)worldnet.att.net> on 05/20/98 08:45:27 AM
>
> Please respond to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
>
> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> cc: (bcc: Bill Sheehan/Corporate/SWEC)
> Subject: Re: Another EBay absurdity
>
>
>
>
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197
> >
> >I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a
> >Commodore Educator 64)
> >
>
>
> This auction ended. This was the bidding history.
>
>
> Last bid at: $510.00
>
> Last bid at: $500.00
>
> Last bid at: $86.62
>
> Last bid at: $35.00
>
> Last bid at: $25.00
>
> At least two people had a clue. One person just really wanted it, and two
> must have thought it was made of gold.
>
> -- Kirk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 00:34 5/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>The static RAM cards in one of my S-100 boxes is made by IMS (Industrial
>Micro Systems) from 1977. Is this any relation to IMS Associates who
>produced the IMSAI, or are they totally unrelated?
Those are unrelated, to each other and to (IIRC) the IMS in Nevada who made
whole computers at about the same time.
__________________________________________
Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org
http://www.chac.org/index.html
Computer History Association of California
I received a message from a person named Robert Bocock today with a PDF
attachement of the card I was asking about, and it was exactly what I
needed. Thanks to anyone that may have been digging for info for me. It
appears the card is made by DFI USA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Now take a look at the feedback. You'll find that the two high bidders are bogus. The winning bid was actually the #3 bidder, who would be within
his rights to decline the honor. The only way we'll know how much this *really* sold for is to check back in a couple of weeks and see who (if
anyone) gets positive feedback from the seller.
"kroma" <kroma(a)worldnet.att.net> on 05/20/98 08:45:27 AM
Please respond to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
cc: (bcc: Bill Sheehan/Corporate/SWEC)
Subject: Re: Another EBay absurdity
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197
>
>I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a
>Commodore Educator 64)
>
This auction ended. This was the bidding history.
Last bid at: $510.00
Last bid at: $500.00
Last bid at: $86.62
Last bid at: $35.00
Last bid at: $25.00
At least two people had a clue. One person just really wanted it, and two
must have thought it was made of gold.
-- Kirk
>X-POP3-Rcpt: jfoust@threedee
>Return-Path: prouse(a)netcom.industry.net
>Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:51:39 -0700
>From: "Paula S. Rouse" <prouse(a)netcom.industry.net>
>Reply-To: prouse(a)netcom.industry.net
>Organization: Harwil Corporation
>To: jfoust(a)threedee.com
>Subject: Don Tarbell
>
>Dear John,
>
>My name is Paula Rouse. I worked for the "Famous" Don Tarbell at Tarbell
>Electronics in Carson, CA from 1976 to 1983. I was his first employee
>when he began selling cassette interface kits and assembled units. He
>was a terrific boss and his wife Brenda and I have been best friends for
>all these years. She called me this evening to say that Don passed away
>this morning, May 19th, 1998, after a long bout with cancer. I was on
>the internet tonight, looking for information on old friends who used to
>come into the shop, hoping to contact them to let them know of his
>passing. When I typed Don's name into Yahoo's search engine, your page
>came up. It is not dated, so I do not know when you tried to contact him
>by e-mail, but Brenda said that he had not been checking his e-mail but
>once every two or three weeks since he had been so sick. That may be the
>reason for your not receiving a reply. He was a great guy and he will be
>sorely missed. It was so much fun being a part of the early years of
>computing. He was instrumental in shaping my career and there are many
>good memories of the times spent together.
>
>Thanks! Paula Rouse, prouse(a)netcom.industry.net
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13839197
>
>I'll save the surprise for you who want to check it out (it's a
>Commodore Educator 64)
>
This auction ended. This was the bidding history.
Last bid at: $510.00
Last bid at: $500.00
Last bid at: $86.62
Last bid at: $35.00
Last bid at: $25.00
At least two people had a clue. One person just really wanted it, and two
must have thought it was made of gold.
-- Kirk
<The static RAM cards in one of my S-100 boxes is made by IMS (Industrial
<Micro Systems) from 1977. Is this any relation to IMS Associates who
<produced the IMSAI, or are they totally unrelated?
No. IMSAI was a different company. The IMS rams, I had two of the 8kx8
were good stuff.
Allison
Found on Usenet: Anyone interested? If so, please contact the original
author directly.
Thanks.
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
From: sgw(a)bronze.lcs.mit.edu (stephen g. wadlow)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: anybody want some history?
Message-ID: <199805200346.XAA23575(a)bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:46:19 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: Info-Pdp11<==>Vmsnet.Pdp-11 Gateway
X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List
Lines: 6
Path:
blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.mathworks.com!mvb.saic.com!info-pdp11
I know of a DecSystem 2065 in the Cambridge, MA. area that's looking
for a sympathetic home in the very near future, lest it meet an
unhappy fate. Any takers?
steve
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, SysOp,
The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272)
kyrrin {at} j<p>s d[o]t n=e=t
"...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe
an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly
define any of them!..."
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, 16 May 1998 11:10
Subject: Re: North Star Horizon
>> Agreed with the previous gentlemen. My latest blind rescue was that 68020
>> Cadnetix system, where the company went under 10 years ago and every
>> technical document on it seems to have ended up in a Colorado landfill. I
>> finally tracked down one of the original engineers (from on-line resumes,
>> of all things) to get some info on it. Granted, it's still dead (and from
>> what I've learned, probably will stay that way forever) but I'll be
damned
>
>Don't say that ! Somehow it can be got to work again. It'll take time,
>but it would certainly be interesting.
>
>> if I didn't learn quite a lot from it. As for wanting a specific machine,
>> I have spent my entire life lusting after machines that I have never even
>> seen in person, let alone had detailed hardware experience with! What is
>
>Yes, but presumably you had reasons for wanting these machines, other
>than 'I want an Altair, they're cool'
>
>> it that really makes us want these machines, anyway? Not to say that
these
>> machines are useless, but nobody collects classic computers because of
>> their amazing processor speed or mammoth memories. It's a much more
>
>Well, I particularly like machines with features that are not found on
>more modern stuff - toggle-switch panels, demountable hard disks, vector
>graphic displays, writeable microcode, etc.
>
>> rounded aesthetic, having to do with colours, shapes, sounds, etc. I
could
>
>I've said it before - I really couldn't care what a machine looks like. The
>circuit diagrams are the interesting thing for me.
>
>> easily *see* a computer that *looks* interesting and ask for one by name,
>> without even knowing where the power switch is. That's the whole fun of
>> it.
>
>True... Especially at radio rallies where you see something odd and pay a
>few pounds/dollars to take it home. No idea what it actually is - it's
>just interesting...
>
>>
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>>
>
>-tony
email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
I have own a NorthStar Horizon very nice little computer abit heavy, mines
in the wooden box and has a pair of 5 1/4" floppy drives in the front and
yes it runs off an terminal.....
mine even has full docs and the origianl receipt of purchates from around
1976.....
many of the cards inside it arom from an Altair if my memory is correct...
A VDM -1? i think thats whats its called...anyway in the manual for this
video card it has the source code for the programmng code for a Altair and
IMSAl mechines....
only around 30,000 of these fine mechines where ever built so i would say
that they are very rare these days....
>
>>> >> I have a Rainbow 200, but I'm missing the keyboard and mouse, and it
>>> >>doesn't
>>> >> seem to take a serial console.
>>>
>>> hmm, don't know about the 200, I've got a 100B machine and the keyboards
>>
>> I've never heard of a Rainbow 200 either. I've got a couple of 100's here.
there used to be a good 'bow ftp site - do you remember what it was?
something along the lines of "ftp.ee.ualberta.com" or somthing; tried
every variation I could think of but didn't come up with anything... :)
seem to remember they had quite a bit of info on memory expansion
boards, connecting nonstandard floppies and other such stuff...
(one for regular posting to the list maybe? a list of good ftp sites /
web sites for various machines... or de we have a regular FAQ anyway?)
cheers
Jules
>
>
>>>....I think winders didn't run on
>>>the 80186(8) used in one of the tandys and a few oddballs. mostly because
>>>the 186 has some on board peripherals (DMA and interrupts) that were not
>>>PCclone compatable.
>>On the contrary: There was a special version of Windows for the Tandy 2000
>>(80186) and Bill Gates referred to it as "the first computer built
>>specifically to run Windows."
I think it'd run via the 80186 daughterboards in a BBC Master system
too... I'm sure I tried this years ago... (ok, "years" is kinda
relative! :)
Jules
>
>
>
<> >....I think winders didn't run on
<> >the 80186(8) used in one of the tandys and a few oddballs. mostly beca
<> >the 186 has some on board peripherals (DMA and interrupts) that were n
<> >PCclone compatable.
It was sufficiently wierd enough that DOS barely ran and most apps didn't
like the climate. Even if windows ran, it was a 186... while faster than
a 8086 it wasn't faster than a 286. The 186 while a neat idea really did
well in the embedded control space where PC compatable hadn't poisoned
everthing.
Allison
-----Original Message-----
From: Ward Donald Griffiths III <gram(a)cnct.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 19 May 1998 12:14
Subject: Re: [Rare systems]
>Desie Hay wrote:
>
>> I dont think anybody ported unix to the Lisa...well it wasnt a commerical
>> thing....
>> im not sure on this but if someone knows for sure ill like to hear from
them
>>
>> check out my Lisa web page......
>
>Well, there was a Lisa running Unix at OCC '84 (the last) in Anaheim.
>At least one. At the Apple booth. Since I'd been playing with Xenix
>(at the Radio Shack Computer Center where I did tech support) for well
>over a year by then, I was actually not too impressed -- it was far
>from ready for prime time. But it was definitely Unix. It just wasn't
>commercial. Especially since Tandy Xenix systems cost a fraction and
>actually had support (around Los Angeles, that was mostly me -- with
>some good documentation and a good line to Fort Worth).
>--
>Ward Griffiths
>They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
>Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
>
yes ive seen pictures of Garry Kildor with a Lisa at his side...
They had a version under development but i almost sure they never released
it.....
<> The two devices are addressed at 02h and 04h, the console is nominally
<> 02, by NS* software convention.
<>
<> It is possible to configure the software for any port however.
<
<It is, but _you need a console_ to do the configuring. It's like
<getting a second-hand Unix box -- you need the root password to
<do anything..
The assumption is that the former owner of the boot disks has/had a
standard configuration. Of the systems my NS* controller has been
in the console could be:
VDM-1 and serial keyboard.
MITS SIO
NS* standard configuration (port base at 0)
CCS, 4sio
Computime CPU (on board usart)
Computime 4sio
All different addesses or requiring different initializtion or use a
totally different device. In my case the system was origially altair
with MDS controller so when the NS* crate was done I had to reconfigure
the disks for NS*. At the time you either got NS* personalized or
unpersonalized requiring the user to set it up it assumed you had front
pannel or rom monitor.
Allison
< I now have some time to work on my N* system. Does anyone have info o
<the Vector Graphics ZCB processor board. 64k RAM board, and the PROM boar
<that they can copy/e-mail me?
No data on any of these.
< Also, which motherboard serial port is used for the console, left or
<right? This may sound silly, but how does the processor board know which
<the console port?
The right from the rear, left from the front.
The two devices are addressed at 02h and 04h, the console is nominally
02, by NS* software convention.
It is possible to configure the software for any port however.
Allison
I recently lost a piece of my computer collection. I had a BRAND NEW never worn Seiko wrist terminal from the ealry 80's that downloaded phonelists, etc via the game port in an Apple II. I entrusted it to a jwewler for repair and he has lost it. I still have the origional box, software, etc. Anybody have an idea of the value of this piece?
please Email me at: Glenn(a)justbirds.com
Thanks!
This is kind of off topic, but Microsoft didn't "cut off" PowerPC... IBM
did. Windows NT was discontinued for the PPC after IBM announced they were
dropping their PPC machines. By that time, nobody besides IBM was, or is,
making PREP (PowerPC Reference Platform) compatible boxes. PPC NT was
discontinued simply because there were no machines to run it.
Apple chose to make their PowerMacs proprietary instead of PREP compliant
(and that's a Motorola/industry standard that has nothing to do with
Microsoft, BTW).
Kai
-----Original Message-----
From: Hotze [mailto:photze@batelco.com.bh]
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 9:12 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Windows 1.x platforms...
>I like to bash Microsoft as much as the next guy, but their CPU support on
>Windows CE is pretty good: x86, MIPS, Hitachi, PPC, and ARM, at least.
x86??? That would make a REALLY COOL sub-$500 PC. PPC??? So MS didn't
COMPLETELY cut it off.... I guess that if Intel (or anyone else) wanted,
they could make a 386/486 (AMD's ElanSC400 comes to mind) processor
based-WindowsCE system, requireing less effort to port to CE.
Tim D. Hotze
I only managed to go there for 50min. and only found out about a
west end when I left. It was cheaper than last time though. I bought
nothing. THe things I saw that were of interest, however:
A Xerox machine that looked like a PC clone, but the monitor plugged
into the system unit with a wide ribbon-like cable, very crude-
looking. What was this?
Some sick variations on the concept of a laptop, mostly from compaq.
I don't know why the docks outnumbered the laptops by such an extent.
A strange IBM box. Looked like a modem, but about two times bigger
than the reqular modems. Had a much more complex display, but had some
similarities. Had a model # in the 7thousands. Had several serial-
like connectors. Ideas?
Also, what do you people think of IIgs?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
anybody have IBM PC DOS 1.00? or know of where I may d/l it from the net
somewhere??
<>I like to bash Microsoft as much as the next guy, but their CPU support
<>Windows CE is pretty good: x86, MIPS, Hitachi, PPC, and ARM, at least.
<
<
<x86??? That would make a REALLY COOL sub-$500 PC. PPC??? So MS didn't
<COMPLETELY cut it off.... I guess that if Intel (or anyone else) wanted,
<they could make a 386/486 (AMD's ElanSC400 comes to mind) processor
<based-WindowsCE system, requireing less effort to port to CE.
SC400 is PC compatable at the 486 level, all you'd need is a bios. Then
youd have to lay out a 4 layer or better yet a six layer PWB, integrate
ram, and add all the other goodies that are not on the CPU. Working with
the SC400 is NOT a trivial hobbiest CPU, most would be stopped by the
package alone.
Also MS never stopped supporting x86, everything they sell runs on 386 or
higher (though it may be slow as mud). W3.1 still runs on 286s.
Allison
I have a copy of it for a VAX mate
>
>OK... I know that Windows 1.x/2.x was horibbly unsuccessful... but I
>remember reading about some platforms that Windows was ported to that
seemed
>pretty strange... (IE non-x86).
> Anyone???
>
>Tim D. Hotze
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Hello, all:
I now have some time to work on my N* system. Does anyone have info on
the Vector Graphics ZCB processor board. 64k RAM board, and the PROM board
that they can copy/e-mail me?
Also, which motherboard serial port is used for the console, left or
right? This may sound silly, but how does the processor board know which is
the console port?
Again, thanks.
Rich Cini/WUGNET
<nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use)
ClubWin! Charter Member (6)
MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
Collector of classic computers
<<<========== Reply Separator ==========>>>
On Tue, 19 May 1998 14:42:09 +1000, "Desie Hay" <desieh(a)southcom.com.au>
wrote:
>>anybody have IBM PC DOS 1.00? or know of where I may d/l it from the net
>>somewhere??
A quick look downstairs shows that I have a complete copy of DOS 1.1.
According to "Upgrading and Repairing PCs 4th Ed.", PC-DOS was versioned as
follows:
<------------------------- File
Sizes ------------------------------>
Ver. File Dates Command.ComIBMBIO.COMIBMDOS.COM
=== ======== ============ =========== ===========
1.0 8/4/81 3231 bytes 1920 bytes
6400 bytes
1.1 5/7/82 4959 bytes 1920 bytes
6400 bytes
According to other charts, there were no differences in the available
internal and external commands, so I don't readily understand the difference
in the command interpreter file sizes (patches??)
I'm sure that I can find some way to get you the 1.1 diskette.
------------------------------
Rich Cini/WUGNET
<nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use)
ClubWin! Charter Member (6)
MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
Collector of classic computers
<<<========== Reply Separator ==========>>>
In a message dated 98-05-14 08:25:05 EDT, you write:
<< The //gs and Macs do, maybe the later //c or //c+ >>
the //c does not have the mini din connector so i guess its probably on the gs
and c+ models do. i have an aftermarket 800k mac drive that either has motor
eject and it also has a pushbutton eject also. i have an old apple magazine
>from years ago that has a compatibility matrix for all the apples and drives.
if anyone wants more info, i can find the magazine.
david
>> I have a Rainbow 200, but I'm missing the keyboard and mouse, and it
>>doesn't
>> seem to take a serial console.
hmm, don't know about the 200, I've got a 100B machine and the keyboards
plug into the back of the display units from what I remember. I think
you could use a VT100 keyboard, don't know about mouse support
(presumably standard serial as on a PC...)
>> I have the CP/M disks for it as well, it has no harddisk.
hard disk controllers and colour display boards were like gold dust for
these machines... blank disks are probably pretty rare these days if the
200 uses those same strange two-in-one disk drives that the 100 had -
you had to have disks without the centre reinforcing rings or they'd
screw up the drive spindles over a period of time....
cheers
Jules
>-------
>
Okay, someone out there may have an instruction sheet they could scan
for this:
I have around half a dozen ISA parallel/serial expansion cards that
I need the jumper data on. These are only
marked on two lrger chips as Winbond W86C551's and the only other
marking is screen printed at the bottom
near the slot. It reads "DIO-222-OHM REV. A" which I assume is it's
model number, probably stands for Dual
I/O model 222. It has a COM A fixed to the filler card at the
backbone and a COM B on a ribbon on an
expansion plate. There is a LPTA and LPTB just the same. It has a
set of jumpers on the lower side below the
lower of the two Winbond chips and it's amrked as JP1 and has three
rows tall and 13 rows wide. The left has 1,
14 and 27 screened on the pc board and the right side has 13, 26
and 35 screened on.
I've used a few that were previously set as LPT2, LPT3, COM3, COM4
but as I come across machines that
need a different setup I'll need a set of instructions. If anyone
has a copy that they could scan and attach as a
graphic, or could fax to me (502-756-6991) or could photocopy and
mail to me I'm sure I could work out
something to repay them.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
<I know basically how microcode works. It's the one-cycle instructions li
<"gate data bus to address bus" or "gate data bus to ALU".
<One MOV can be 2-5 microinstructions.
First most microinstructions are bit coded... meaning that it can do
several things concurrently if the hardware can based on what bits are
set. That also means you cant output data to the data bus while trying
input data. Watch out as some of the vax MOVs are fairly complex
instructions.
<The large question I have is: How does the MOV translate to microcode?
<Does the VAX figure a microcode offset based on the opcode? Is there a t
<of entry points somewhere? How is this done?
The macroinstruction is a pointer to a table entry that containes the
address of a microsubroutine that will execute it. That means in hardware
there will be a rom or ram between the instruction register and the
external microcode address entry point (usually a operand to a microcode
jump.).
<Another thing, the VAX 780 was microcoded from the console RX01. Does an
<have a copy of that RX01? Can anyone get a disk image? What else was on
<(RT-11? P/OS?)
I believe it was RT-11 with special application code for starting and
monitoring the 780. The 730 and 750 had minimal microcode and used a
tu58 to load the remainder or overlay existing ucode to patch it.
Allison
<>> I have a Rainbow 200, but I'm missing the keyboard and mouse, and it
<>>doesn't
<>> seem to take a serial console.
NEever heard of a 200 there was a 100, 100+ and 100B.
<you could use a VT100 keyboard, don't know about mouse support
<(presumably standard serial as on a PC...)
No mouse. Keyboard was LK200 same as vt220 and later terminals and the
monitor was VR201 (mono) or one of the others. It did not use a serial
console as it was like a PC and had color graphics.
<hard disk controllers and colour display boards were like gold dust for
<these machines... blank disks are probably pretty rare these days if the
<200 uses those same strange two-in-one disk drives that the 100 had -
<you had to have disks without the centre reinforcing rings or they'd
<screw up the drive spindles over a period of time....
Media is common 360k pc. The format is oddball (rx50) but the rainbow
could format a floppy. Hard disk controllers can be found (in the USA).
Allison
<- AMD Enhanced Am486
<- AMD Am5x86
<- AMD K5
<- AMD K6
<- Centaur IDT-C6
<- Cyrix 486DRx2
<- Cyrix 5x86
<- Cyrix 6x86 & 6x86MX
<- IBM 6x86 & 6x86MX
<- NexGen NX586
<- SGS-Thomson ST486
<- SGS-Thomson 6x86
<- Texas Instruments TI486DX2 & DX4
Ok so you listed all the code compatable cpus, they are for all intents
the same thing only varying in performance. Still intel instruction set.
<Windows CE 2.0 supports the following chipsets:
Never heard of this one.
<- Digital
Ok can you be specific... at one time the PDP-11, VAX and Alpha were
all in production concurrently. I'd suspect Alpha. MS never had a
clue about VAX.
Allison
At 11:21 PM 5/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Geowork's GEOS was an early (better-than-Microsoft-but-crushed-anyway)
>Windowing system that ran on both x86 and 6502 (and maybe more).
>
Also ran on the Commie C64 and 128. I have the manual for it. If anyone
wants it you can have it for $2 and the cost of shipping.
Joe
>I like to bash Microsoft as much as the next guy, but their CPU support on
>Windows CE is pretty good: x86, MIPS, Hitachi, PPC, and ARM, at least.
x86??? That would make a REALLY COOL sub-$500 PC. PPC??? So MS didn't
COMPLETELY cut it off.... I guess that if Intel (or anyone else) wanted,
they could make a 386/486 (AMD's ElanSC400 comes to mind) processor
based-WindowsCE system, requireing less effort to port to CE.
Tim D. Hotze
> I thought I had read something recently about some company releasing a
> re-hashed version of GEOS for PCs, but my proxy is hosed and a search would
> take forever. I think it was on C|NET in a review of alternative OSs.
Brother has a brand new GEOS laptop they're selling for about $500 or so.
Perhaps that's what you're thinking of.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
<> Wasn't it the DRAM used on the infamous MITS 4KB DRAM S-100 memory card
<> The one that never worked because they used a one-shot for the RAS-CAS
<
<Hmm.. I doubt it. The 4060 doesn't have separate RAS and CAS inputs and a
<multiplexed address. There were 16 pin 4K DRAMs that did, though.
It was used for the 88-s4k and the earlier 88-MCD both were cranky
designs as the S4K didn't like z80s and the MCD was just flakey
due to sloppy timing and board level noise.
<> timing. That was one collector item that should be put in a landfill.
Those two memories were best left in the dumpster. The rams used were
easy to work with as they only needed a CE to latch the address and cause
a read, write or refresh. They were at the time fairly fast as well
which is where some designers got burnt from the noise that was generated
by the fast switching.
<As I keep on telling people "I'll not show you how to use {one shots |
<monostables}. By the time you know how to use them correctly, you can
<figure out how to use them without my help" :-)
Oneshots are ok but, critical timing and cascaded timing is nuttyness
when combined with board level noise. The Altair boys used oneshots to
solve timing problems when combinational logic was more correct. The
problem was even the s4k was plagued by board level noise and strange
decodings.
Allison
An interesting bit from our archive knowledgebase...
Windows/286 Running on DEC Rainbow with 286 Board [aropenv]
ID: Q51199 CREATED: 21-NOV-1989
2.11
WINDOWS
Summary:
The Rainbow Adaptation Kit for Microsoft Windows/286, marketed by
Suitable Solutions, Inc., of Santa Clara, California, permits Rainbow
users to install Windows/286 Version 2.11 directly from the
Windows/286 retail kit. For more information about the Rainbow
Adaptation Kit, contact Suitable Solutions at (408) 727-9090.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Ivie [mailto:IVIE@cc.usu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 10:48 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Windows 1.x platforms...
> Windows 1.x-2.x were Intel and 100% compatible only (including AMD 286
since
> it was manufactured under license by Intel), and ran without problems on
the
> NEC V20 (8088 clone). Bear in mind that there wasn't really any secondary
> CPU market at that time.
Back in the Windows 1 timeframe, IBM had not yet taken over the universe.
Some non-clones (such as the DEC Rainbow) ran Windows; basically DEC
wrote or contracted for the device drivers necessary to make it work.
I don't recall whether Windows 2.x ran on the 'bow; I didn't have access
to one during that timeframe.
Hotze wrote:
>
> OK... I know that Windows 1.x/2.x was horibbly unsuccessful... but I
> remember reading about some platforms that Windows was ported to that
seemed
> pretty strange... (IE non-x86).
> Anyone???
This is probably a dim memory of the Rainbow port. The Rainbow had both an
8088 and a Z80 (when running MS-DOS, the Z80 was used only for floppy and
(IIRC) keyboard I/O).
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
> Windows 1.x-2.x were Intel and 100% compatible only (including AMD 286 since
> it was manufactured under license by Intel), and ran without problems on the
> NEC V20 (8088 clone). Bear in mind that there wasn't really any secondary
> CPU market at that time.
Back in the Windows 1 timeframe, IBM had not yet taken over the universe.
Some non-clones (such as the DEC Rainbow) ran Windows; basically DEC
wrote or contracted for the device drivers necessary to make it work.
I don't recall whether Windows 2.x ran on the 'bow; I didn't have access
to one during that timeframe.
Hotze wrote:
>
> OK... I know that Windows 1.x/2.x was horibbly unsuccessful... but I
> remember reading about some platforms that Windows was ported to that
seemed
> pretty strange... (IE non-x86).
> Anyone???
This is probably a dim memory of the Rainbow port. The Rainbow had both an
8088 and a Z80 (when running MS-DOS, the Z80 was used only for floppy and
(IIRC) keyboard I/O).
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
Windows 1.x-2.x were Intel and 100% compatible only (including AMD 286 since
it was manufactured under license by Intel), and ran without problems on the
NEC V20 (8088 clone). Bear in mind that there wasn't really any secondary
CPU market at that time.
Windows 3.x was also supported on IBM Blue Lightning and AMD processors.
Windows 95 logo program lists the following chipsets:
- AMD Enhanced Am486
- AMD Am5x86
- AMD K5
- AMD K6
- Centaur IDT-C6
- Cyrix 486DRx2
- Cyrix 5x86
- Cyrix 6x86 & 6x86MX
- IBM 6x86 & 6x86MX
- NexGen NX586
- SGS-Thomson ST486
- SGS-Thomson 6x86
- Texas Instruments TI486DX2 & DX4
Windows NT 3.51 supported Intel, MIPS, Alpha, and PowerPC.
Windows NT 4.0 supports Intel and Alpha.
Windows CE 2.0 supports the following chipsets:
- AMD
- ARM
- Digital
- Hitachi
- MIPS
- Motorola
Kai
-----Original Message-----
From: Ward Donald Griffiths III [mailto:gram@cnct.com]
Sent: Monday, May 18, 1998 9:18 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Windows 1.x platforms...
Hotze wrote:
>
> OK... I know that Windows 1.x/2.x was horibbly unsuccessful... but I
> remember reading about some platforms that Windows was ported to that
seemed
> pretty strange... (IE non-x86).
> Anyone???
Nope, nein, none. While (16-bit and under) Windows can be used with
other processors _now_ courtesy of WABI, WINE and other independent
projects, only NT has ever been officially supported by Microsoft on
any non-Intel (or "clone" -- though MS's support is questionable in
that case) CPU. And support for NT on non-Intel processors has been
dropping and is not promised for the future. (Then again, support for
any Microsoft product can't be counted upon a year after release or
release of the the next version, whichever comes earlier).
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
<> grabbed the boards hoping that these chips were pin-compatible with th
<> old 2102L or RCA1822 or MOS 6550 256x4 SRAMs.
<
<Alas not. Not even the same type or capacity :-(
I do have a bunch of:
2101 256x4 22 pin static nmos
5101 256x4 22pin static cmos
2111 256x4
2112 256x4
6508 1kx1 cmos static
2102 1kx1 16pin static
2114 1kx4 20 pin
6514 1kx4 20 pin
4060 4kx1 22pin dynamic
upd411 4kx1 semistatic 85ns 22pin
4104 4kx1 static
d414 4kx1 dynamic ras/ cas/ 16pin
2167 16kx1 70ns 18 pin
4116 16kx1 16 pin dynamic
And a few other oddballs. You never know when you need a ram... ;)
Allison
OK... I know that Windows 1.x/2.x was horibbly unsuccessful... but I
remember reading about some platforms that Windows was ported to that seemed
pretty strange... (IE non-x86).
Anyone???
Tim D. Hotze
<When did Intel (if ever) discontinue the 4000 series???
< Ciao,
The 4004 hit the endangerred species list in 76, with not recommended for
new designs. I think last buy production was in 79.
Allison
-----Original Message-----
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)ricochet.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 19 May 1998 12:56
Subject: Finds and questions
>This weekend (despite iminent death due to a stomach virus) I managed to
>add a few interesting things to my collection:
>
>Toshiba T1000
>HP 110
>GRiD GRiDCase 2
>GRiD GridCase 1520
>Grid GridCase 1535
>Grid Battery (spare)
>Grid P/S (spare, replaces battery)
>Two external Grid Disk Drives
>
>Now for the questions.
>
>The GridCase 2 seems to have an internal 10MB hard drive (gotta be a 3.5"),
>but it also has a DB25 sticking out the side where the HD is. Has anyone
>else seen this? Is it a GRiD option? Is the DB25 for an external floppy,
>since the HD seems to be where the floppy should be? The HD makes some
>rather unhappy noises, though it seems to work fine; anyone have any
>suggestions for the best way to get the data/OS off the hard drive in case
>of failure? (Just copy to floppies?) It comes up in something called
>(iirc) InteGRiD; anyone know anything about this?
>
>Haddock claims the T1100 was Toshiba's first laptop; just by looking at the
>numbers, one would think the T1000 would have come first. According to
>Toshiba's spec files, both machines ran Toshiba MS-DOS 2.11, had 512K RAM
>(but the T1000 could go up to 1.2MB), both had a 4.77mhz 80c88, etc. So,
>anyone know for sure what came first?
>
>I guess that's it for now. Of course, if anyone has any further info,
>anecdotes, or specs on any of these machines...
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
>
>Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
>roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
>Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
>San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>
email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
Im 99.999% sure the T1000 was first...............
when i purchased mine around 10 years ago im almost sure that it was the
only one they where offering that
was IBM compat
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 19 May 1998 5:30
Subject: Re: North Star Horizon [Rare systems]
>At 11:25 AM 5/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>On Mon, 18 May 1998, Desie Hay wrote:
>>
>>> this is getting abit of track here but nobody seems to mind:
>>> well im in australia and ive got some mechines that i bet you guys have
>>> never heard of:
>>>
>>> Dick Smith System 80
>>> (TRS-80 model 1 clone)
>
> Well if you like that kind of stuff, there's a LNW 80 for sale in a
>surplus store here (Skycraft, in Orlando, Florida) for $25. It's another
>TRS clone but it's supposed to have the interfaces and extra memory
>built-in. Comes complete with a couple of manuals. I know very little
>about the TRS stuff and nothing about this clone so if you have questions
>post them to the list and see if someone else can answer them.
>
> Joe
>
>
>>
>>Sure we've heard of this. You Aussie blokes have been talking about the
>>Dick Smith systems for a while now.
>>
>>> UNIVAC
>>> (CPM box, looks like a terminal)
>>
>>Believe it or not I have heard of this. I think some other feller from
>>down under mentioned it at some point.
>>
>>> OSI C4P
>>> (looks like a SOL termianl computer, dont know anything else about it?
>>> anybody else know anything about it??)
>>
>>Ohio Scientific Challengers are no secret.
>>
>>Sam Alternate e-mail:
>dastar(a)siconic.com
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>----
>>Ever onward.
>>
>> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
>> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
>> [Last web page update: 05/11/98]
>>
>>
>
Well this UNIVAC I have, I acutally got it imported or what that be
exported:>
>from the states.............
This weekend (despite iminent death due to a stomach virus) I managed to
add a few interesting things to my collection:
Toshiba T1000
HP 110
GRiD GRiDCase 2
GRiD GridCase 1520
Grid GridCase 1535
Grid Battery (spare)
Grid P/S (spare, replaces battery)
Two external Grid Disk Drives
Now for the questions.
The GridCase 2 seems to have an internal 10MB hard drive (gotta be a 3.5"),
but it also has a DB25 sticking out the side where the HD is. Has anyone
else seen this? Is it a GRiD option? Is the DB25 for an external floppy,
since the HD seems to be where the floppy should be? The HD makes some
rather unhappy noises, though it seems to work fine; anyone have any
suggestions for the best way to get the data/OS off the hard drive in case
of failure? (Just copy to floppies?) It comes up in something called
(iirc) InteGRiD; anyone know anything about this?
Haddock claims the T1100 was Toshiba's first laptop; just by looking at the
numbers, one would think the T1000 would have come first. According to
Toshiba's spec files, both machines ran Toshiba MS-DOS 2.11, had 512K RAM
(but the T1000 could go up to 1.2MB), both had a 4.77mhz 80c88, etc. So,
anyone know for sure what came first?
I guess that's it for now. Of course, if anyone has any further info,
anecdotes, or specs on any of these machines...
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
I went to the big (650 booths) antique show at the Cow Palace this weekend
and saw exactly zero (0) computers. (Other than laptops and such in use by
dealers.) Dunno how long it will be, though, before they start to show up.
Did overhear one dealer tell another "ebay is great -- you can go on there
and sell stuff for *way* more than it's worth." 8^)
P.S., Did manage to find 6 or 7 Donald Ducks that Rachel didn't have, and
got me a couple of Land Rovers too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 03:25 PM 5/17/98 PDT, you wrote:
>Some sick variations on the concept of a laptop, mostly from compaq.
>I don't know why the docks outnumbered the laptops by such an extent.
Because docking stations sit on desks, nice and safe beneath their
monitors, while laptops go out to play with the Samsonite Gorilla,
automobile firewalls, toddlers, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 02:33 PM 5/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>It would be fun and almost educational to outsiders to have a
>series of slides showing the evolution of the common Intel chipset,
>or memory chips.
Fry's Electronics (in Sunnyvale? -- Off Lawrence Expy) has a display with a
topless 4004 and a topless Pentium (of some sort). Quite a difference
indeed. (btw, this is the same one that has the CHAC Apple 1 and some
other items from Perham on display).
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
