- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Hi Doug and all, At 05:04 PM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >Does anybody have Intel 8008 datasheets that they're willing to copy for >me? I'll gladly pay for the copying/shipping. > > I have a bunch of stuff on the 8008, some too much for me to easily copy completely, including the MCS-8 8008 Users Manual (126 pages). In the 1976 Intel Data catalog, there is a 7 page data sheet: Page 1 Title and block diag. page 2 Photomicrograph Page 3 Functional pin description Page 4,5 Instruction set Page 6 Ratings, D.C., A.C. characteristics Page 7 Timing Diagram -Dave

28 years, 1 month

2
1
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Old Microsoft stuff...

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Huw Davies <H.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au> wrote (in re Eunice): > It's been a while (not long enough really) so I might be recalling things > badly. I'm hopeful that we've thrown away the tapes/manuals/etc but I'll > take a look just in case... While I was at the office today I wandered down the hall to the library and we still have two sets of manuals for Eunice. You can sleep well though, this isn't a suggestion that they might be turned loose on any unsuspecting VAXen. -Frank McConnell "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits) <frank(a)twg.com>

28 years, 1 month

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What is the first computer?

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

> > P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of > > Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. > > Johann Kepler tried to build some kind of calculator too I think. Does Blaise Pascal's box count? Jeff

28 years, 1 month

5
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Old Mac OS.... Help PLS!

by yaksaken＠hkstar.com

Hi there.... Recently, I just got an old Mac IIci, which has 40M HDD & 8M RAM. After all, I added the RAM to 32M, and also want to change the stupid 40M SCSI HDD to a larger one.... But the problem is, I just can't find a diskette version of Mac OS 7.5.x for it... What can I do...?? If anyone has the old Mac OS, would you all pls make a copy for me?? I will pay the shipping and diskette cost..... (Coz, I don't think if I can get a new copy from APPLE.. :( ) Yours, Ken Yaksa

28 years, 1 month

3
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Old Mac OS.... Help PLS!

by mallison＠konnections.com

If you can't find one, check with Sun Remarketing in Smithfield Utah. They will sell all the way back to version 3.2 on 400 k disks. -Mike ---------- From: Ken Yaksa Sent: Thursday, June 18, 1998 10:25 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! <<File: ATT00000.txt>>

28 years, 1 month

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CP/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Where did you get the idea that tape is so fragile? I'd wager the ones y <encountered were either of very poor quality or were stored under advers <conditions (high heat, high humidity, etc). Tony was reffering to adhesive tapes not mag tape. Allison

28 years, 1 month

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Location, Location, Location!

by jfoust＠threedee.com

It would be nifty to have a web page with a list of Computer Rescue Squad volunteers paired with their geographical coordinates, with even perhaps a link to any one of the map-servers out there. - John

28 years, 1 month

2
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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:37 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my >general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly >80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, >etc.) but will take just about anything. And if you know of a robotron in the SF bay area available for cheap, 4-6hours of sleep per night is way too much anyway... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

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Inventory compaction

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 11:47 AM 6/17/98, you wrote: > It must be contagous! I've been thinking about getting rid of some of my >stuff including the IBM 5100 and some of the HPs. If you decide to get rid of an IPC... P.S., I still need to get your Multispeed manuals in the mail to you... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

2
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Zenith Lap Top ---- HELP

by cad＠gamewood.net

Hi Fellows: Trying to help out a friendd! Zenith laptop cir.1988 20meg HD. CMOS battery died! Need information on HD type if at all possible. This model supposedly had 20meg and 40meg HD models. TIA Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad(a)gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803

28 years, 1 month

3
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Curious George Goes to Micro Center

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

An anecodote: Today, two teachers from my school went to Micro Center to get some stuff fixed, and took me with them. This was the first time I have ever been in a tech service room. There was one tech, a woman in her 40's, multitasking. She was only able to fix our printer, which wouldn't formfeed due to a gob of glue. She "solved" the other two problems with updates from Apple's site. Anyway, while she was busy with us, a guy walked in with a Mac Plus mouse. She told him that the only thing that could be done is to order a new one, if they're still in stock. One the bright side, she didn't sell him a DB-9 Intellimouse but I think the only reason a mouse should be replace is if the case is smashed or it just sucks (Zenix?). How do you expect classics to survive in active use if they're thrown away without an attemp at fixing them? By the way, what's the difference between DB and DE connectors? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 1 month

2
1
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CP/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I wonder if implemented if it would be necessary to let the read <electronics know which sensor it was reading to compensate for the <rotation positional difference. Or whether when reading the flippy <side it would simply wait longer to read the sector header. < < - don No, the relative position is the same as the index hole occurs and you start formatting there. What that means is sector 1 is displaced about 1/3 of a turn from the "normal" unflipped position. Allison

28 years, 1 month

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CP/M

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 18, 18:29, Tony Duell wrote: > > >holes and putting the disk back in the jacket. Problem is resealing the > > >edge of the jacket which I've opened. > > > > Tape works well! > > No it doesn't! 99% of all the tapes out there fail after a couple of > years (at most) leaving a somewhat sticky residue behind. 5.25" (and 8") > floppies were rarely (if ever) assembled using adhesives - a thermal > welding process appears to be what was done. > > > Joe You could try tetrahydofuran, as found in Vinyl Weld adhesive. Noxious stuff, but it works on a lot of "difficult" plastics and you only need a very small amount. I mostly use it for making custom ribbon cables. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 1 month

1
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What is the first computer?

by franke＠sbs.de

>>I'd give the honours of 1st computer to the Zuse Z1 - a relay machine >>between the Wars, I think. But some mechanical calculators at that date >>were quite sophisticated. Comments, anyone?? > Well, I'd give computer credit to Babage's machine, ca. 1896, IIRC. He is, > after all the one who coined the phrase "computer." Babbage died 1871 :) The Analytical Machine was never build and had never worked. Even the 1991 'replica' of the National Museum of Science and Technology in London was only build after his plans _and_ additions 'known' at this time. A neat (english) description of the Z1 and Z3 could be found at http://www.zib.de/prospekt/zuse/zusez1z3.html (Hard code documentation) or http://bang.lanl.gov/video/sunedu/computer/z1z4.html (soft :) The first programable general purpose computer is for shure the Z1. And the first electronic computer is the Z3 since the Z1 was just mechanical. Also both are the first binary floating point computers (Babage used decimal wheels). Servus H. P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 1 month

2
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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa

by franke＠sbs.de

>>Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my >>general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly >>80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, >>etc.) but will take just about anything. > And if you know of a robotron in the SF bay area available for cheap, > 4-6hours of sleep per night is way too much anyway... 8^) Robotron ? Talking about the East German Computers ? :) H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 1 month

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Baby's birthday... Web Page on BBC

by gim＠hitec-uk.com

Yes,onlyone was made [well, two,if you count the remake. It was the predecessor to the Mark One, which was, in turn the predecessor to the Feranti Mark One, which claims to be the first comercially available computer. Other interestinf firsts from Manchester... the first use of virtual memory... Grant. Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk on 06/18/98 06:20:10 PM Please respond to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> cc: Subject: Re[2]: Baby's birthday... Web Page on BBC [Manchester SSEM] > That's pretty neat. Let me know if all the lights in town dim when they > turn it back on! > > Any idea how many of those were sold and what they cost? Um. Yes. AFAIK, none were sold, and they (it) cost a lot. :-) But they probably didn't track the cost accurately, since the machine was continually being extended - it (i.e. the physical hardware, not just the design) was used as a basis for the next couple of Manchester machines (including the mark 1, I think). Philip.

28 years, 1 month

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Pen Windows 2.0

by higginbo＠netpath.net

Which needs at least a 286 and 2mb to run. This is a V20 here. I need the older version of GeoWorks. At 10:45 PM 6/17/98 -0400, Josh Spatz wrote: >Geoworks is no longer developing PC-GEOS, but it was licensed by a >company called New Deal, which has a downloadable version of New Deal >Office (the new name for PC-Geos) on their website at >http://www.newdealinc.com - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

28 years, 1 month

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What is the first computer?

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

William Donzelli quoted Tony Duell as having written: >> Agreed. You can understand an ASR33 or similar by turning it by hand and >> tripping linkages, etc. I did it years ago. Doing the same to a video >> terminal, even a simple dumb terminal, is a lot harder (Done that as well!) > > I have actually done that with a chunk of one of these computers - the > turn of one gear would cause a hundred others to move. > >> The other nice thing is that, with the possible exception of custom cams, >> it's generally pretty obvious what broken parts should be like. And then >> it's possible to make them without too much equipment. But a dead custom >> chip is almost impossible to figure out, and hard to reproduce. > > That is very true - a stripped gear is a stripped gear is a stripped gear! Ooh! Not so fast! Is it straight, helical, worm or hypoid? Or an eliptical gear even? But yes, a gear is easy to rconstruct from its wreckage. Some cams and levers, though, have quite tight tolerance spikes and notches which it is quite difficult to get right from seeing the bent/broken ones. > Fixing one of these mechanical computers, however, is completely different > from the familiar digital ones. In the latter, all problems (except video) > are go/no go. In the former, problems manifest themselves in the outputs > giving out-of-spec or erroneous results (except with a catasprophic > failure!). Bearing in mind Tony's, Sam's and others' comments on intermittent faults and the like, yes, up to a point. Video is not the only exception, though - other things (e.g. disk drives) can suffer similarly. And finally, remember digital mechanical computers do exist - I have a Facit mechanical calculator with some quite sophisticated algorithms (optimised multiplication, non-restoring division) done digitally, entirely with mechanical parts. (The only electrical bits are a motor and a switch.) Philip.

28 years, 1 month

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What is the first computer?

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

<Stuff about stripped gears and mechanical computing engines SNIPped> > > You've never had a marginal timing problem, or a pattern-related data > problem? I am suprised. > > Put it this way. I had a 1793 that, when it was warm, would not gerenrate > a data request bit if (I think) the last 2 bytes loaded were both FF. > Something totally crazy like that. Took a long time (and a lot of > corrupted disks) to track that one down. > > Ditto for marginal timing that fixes itself when the machine is cold, or > hot, or when you wave your hands over the CPU board, or whatever. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tony, Tony, Tony, don't you know? That's a free added option that's built into many kinds of electronic equipment! It's called the TPD (tm). A.k.a., the "Technician Proximity Detector". There's a ton of them installed out there. Looks like one innovation that goes back even to Babbage's time . . . . Jeff > > -tony > > > >

28 years, 1 month

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Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...)

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-06-17 20:42:34 EDT, you write: << >hey, Hey,HEY! ps2 machines were announced in 1987 so they should be talked >about rather than destroyed. no matter what anyone says, they were state of >the art. certainly way ahead for their time. You MUST be kidding! Joe >> actually, i'm not. they WERE ahead of their time. expensive and well designed. the first pc type machine with level sensitive interrupts. they can be worked on and disassembled without tools, extensive grounding on the circuits lowered emissions, real plug and play that worked, some machines had IML partition and scsi, hi speed uarts, autoconfig, sharing IRQ's, bi- directional lpt port, the standard keyboard and mouse we use today, so on and so forth. i've got a model 77 with builtin scsi that i know will outlast any other pc of its era. david

28 years, 1 month

5
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Baby's birthday... Web Page on BBC

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

[Manchester SSEM] > That's pretty neat. Let me know if all the lights in town dim when they > turn it back on! > > Any idea how many of those were sold and what they cost? Um. Yes. AFAIK, none were sold, and they (it) cost a lot. :-) But they probably didn't track the cost accurately, since the machine was continually being extended - it (i.e. the physical hardware, not just the design) was used as a basis for the next couple of Manchester machines (including the mark 1, I think). Philip.

28 years, 1 month

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What is the first computer?

by bobstek＠ix13.ix.netcom.com

BTW, disgruntled French factory weavers who realized the threat of automated Jacquard looms to their skilled jobs were known to throw their wooden shoes, sabots, into the mechanical workings in order to express their displeasure at being replaced by a machine. Hence the the coining of a new word - sabotage.

28 years, 1 month

2
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What is the first computer?

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 09:41 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century >that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a IIRC, this is where our modern-day punched cards came from. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

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What is the first computer?

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Hi. Just wanted to check... What's the: 1) First calculating device (fingers and mind) 2) First human made computer (program given for input, so abbacus doesn't count, output given) 3) Computer capible of storing programs 4) Computer capible of doing more than direct math (IE run programs for AI's, etc.) 5) First digital computer 6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) 7) First computer to sell more than 1,000 8) " " " " " " 10,000 9) First computer to use a floppy disk (any kind of floppy) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze

28 years, 1 month

9
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old mac cards

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 12:59 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >Apple Macintosh IIci Cache Card (nubus) >Duh. I can make a good guess at this one. I'll offer $5 for this... When I run across 'em, I stick 'em in the IIci's in Rachel's classroom. Dunno if it does anything, but it sounds cool. >Unknown nubus board >Has markings DRO1 DEMO PC 10-184464- SER. NO. AA on component side. >Has several unmarked chips and empty sockets. There is also a good >deal of loose blue wire running hither and yon. On the end is a female >37 pin connector. Obviously this is a prototype. Is there any way >to find out for what? Well, Dx-37F is an external floppy connector for PC's. Coupled with the "PC" in "DEMO PC", I'd guess a hardware PC emulator. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

3
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PDP model line / rarity?

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> Hire the handicapped. They don't get much work done, but they're fun >> to watch. Hmm, I'll take that as a joke - in the way that it was (hopefully) intended. A word of advice though; think twice about what you say on this list - or anywhere else for that matter - as some people could take offence to that comment (and justifiably so!) J. >

28 years, 1 month

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PDP model line / rarity?

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 12:11 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hire the handicapped. They don't get much work done, but they're fun >to watch. Call me a pissing-liberal, but I have to reply... (and yes, I understand it was most likely a joke, but for them what don't understand that...) (And keep in mind that especially on the internet, there is a very high probability that someone who reads your message may be physically challenged. (I know for a fact that at least one person on this list is.)) The "handicapped" are often more productive than the rest of society. Hawking is a good example. I can cite more if you want. So call me hyper-sensitive, but as one who drives around with a crip-card in the car most of the time... Actually, it is the people who seem physically fine that are often the most handicapped. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 1 month

3
2
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What is the first computer?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 18, 1:44, Tony Duell wrote: > You've never had a marginal timing problem, or a pattern-related data > problem? I am suprised. > > Put it this way. I had a 1793 that, when it was warm, would not gerenrate > a data request bit if (I think) the last 2 bytes loaded were both FF. > Something totally crazy like that. Took a long time (and a lot of > corrupted disks) to track that one down. > > Ditto for marginal timing that fixes itself when the machine is cold, or > hot, or when you wave your hands over the CPU board, or whatever. My two favourites are both from BBC Micros: 1) a manufacturing fault: a particular machine would work from cold, but fail after about half a minute. It turned out that the IC used to select bank-switched ROMs had been inserted with one pin bent under the chip. It actually looked like it was properly soldered from the top side of the board, and impossible to tell from the underside, because the manufacturing process had skimmed all the protruding pins virtually flush with the board (onme particular subcontractor sometimes skimmed too close and damaged the tracks, but that's another story). Anyway, when it was cold, the bent pin touched the solder in the hole. When it warmed up even slightly, the other pins apparently expanded just enough to raise the IC and the bent pin lost contact. 2) a design fault: the original BBC used a ULA for video timing, and once it was in production, it was quickly found that many would start to give timing errors (manifested as twinkling characters) when they got warm. ULAs do run fairly warm, but they aren't supposed to need heatsinks, so this was a bit puzzling. It turned out that some gates in a chain had been set up as open-collector when they should have had pullups; when cold, the characteristics were such that the output got to a reasonable level quickly enough for the input it was driving, but when the IC was hot the level changed too slowly. As John Coll (who ran the original training courses) put it, if you could drill a hole in the top of the IC, and connect a pullup resistor to the correct gate with a microprobe, you wouldn't need the heatsink. Later versions of the custom chip were indeed provided as "heatsinkless". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 1 month

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What is the first computer? (OT: HTML Rendering/Omniweb

by gim＠hitec-uk.com

First off, sorry is this comes through as unreadable garbage, I'm @ work, so I've got to use Lotus notes.... :( Wasn't Omniweb the Web browsers for NeXT machines? Was it ever released on other platforms? If my memory serves me correctly, when MS/NS were having they're best viewed on icon war, Omniweb had an icon with the slogan, "Not to shabby when viewed with OmniWeb". Anyway, I digress, if you import your file into a newer version of word, then save as,with the file type HTML Alternately, there was a plug in released by MS called internet assistant. I'm not sure which versions of word it runs on, check their website for info. Sorry for wandering OT. Grant. "R. Stricklin (kjaeros)" <red(a)bears.org> on 06/18/98 08:28:05 AM Please respond to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> cc: Subject: Re: What is the first computer? On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Rax wrote: > HTML table (the timeline runs about 10,000 words and I can't face the > thought of re-typing it), I'll post it on my Web site for list members' > general edification and enlightenment, as well as criticisms, corrections, > and nit-picking. HTML.. table? HTML table? Do you have any idea how long it would take render a table of that size in Omniweb? Ugh. Why not use the list tags, like a sensible person? Using tables as a method of formatting HTML is unforgivable. (: ok r.

28 years, 1 month

1
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old mac cards

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

My thoughts exactly. Look at the card. Is there an intel or cyrix microprocessor on the board? Another hint is four identical square chips (the chipset). >>Duh. I can make a good guess at this one. > >I'll offer $5 for this... When I run across 'em, I stick 'em in the IIci's >in Rachel's classroom. Dunno if it does anything, but it sounds cool. > >>Unknown nubus board >>Has markings DRO1 DEMO PC 10-184464- SER. NO. AA on component side. >>Has several unmarked chips and empty sockets. There is also a good >>deal of loose blue wire running hither and yon. On the end is a female >>37 pin connector. Obviously this is a prototype. Is there any way >>to find out for what? > >Well, Dx-37F is an external floppy connector for PC's. Coupled with the >"PC" in "DEMO PC", I'd guess a hardware PC emulator. > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

2
1
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HP 9825 configurrationss

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

For anyone that cares, here is a list of the configurations of my HP 9825s. Notice there's some funny stuff here. Some are marked 9825A on the back but 9825B in the front next to the display. Several are marked 9825T under the paper cover. #4 says A on the back, B next to the display and T under the cover! You figure that one out! Many of them have a list, under the paper cover, of ROMs that are installed internally in the machine. The ROMs listed are not the same on every machine and they're listed in differnt orders. Also some machines have different amounts of memory. The box mentioned on some of them is a small box that extends out the back where the power cord plug in is located. It looks like a noise filter was added on to some of the machine. Some of these also have the operating system located in a plug ROM located in the side of the machine. Joe #1 9825A SN 1622A07600 also 1637A01402 on back OPT 002 23228 Bytes ROMS 98210A String - Advanced Progranmming 98211A Matrix 98214A 9826A Plotter- General I/O - Extended I/O Has OS ROM in the side 09825-87905 #2 9825B SN 1014A02207 no OS ROM Full Travel keyboard. Has box on the back. Inside paper cover it's marked " 9825T” and lists the following installed devices: 9872A Plotter, General I/O, Extended I/O, Advanced Programming, String, System Programming , Total Memory 61670 Bytes #3 9825A SN 1622A09285 SN 1725A00116 on back Has full travel keyboard and box on the back. has Opt 001 15036 Bytes ROMS 98210A String - Advanced Progranmming 98211A Matrix 98213A General I/O - Extended I/O 98216A Plotter- General I/O - Extended I/O Has OS ROM in the side 09825-87905 #4 9825A (but marked 9825B next to the display) SN 1014A02187 Full Travel keyboard and has the box on the back. Inside paper cover it's marked "9825T" and lists the following installed devices: 9872A Plotter, General I/O, Extended I/O, Advanced Programming, String, System Programming , Total Memory 61670 Bytes No OS ROM No plug in ROMs #5 9825A SN 1622A04464 has chicklet keys Inside paper cover it's marked " 9825A” and lists the following installed devices: 9872A Plotter, General I/O, Extended I/O, String, Advanced Programming, Matrix Opt 001 15036 bytes, Opt 002 23228 bytes. ROMS 98210A String - Advanced Progranmming 98211A Matrix 98216A 9872A Plotter- General I/O - Extended I/O (note: none of these ROMs should be in this machine!) HP 98034B HP-IB Interface HP 98034A HP-IB Interface HP 98032-Opt 85 16 bit I/O w/ HP 9885 Disc Interface ( Yes, it could operate two HP-IB interfaces. As long as they had different addresses.) #6 HP 9825A SN 1622A03718 Has cicklet keys. Option 001 15036 total bytes ROMS 98210A String - Advanced Progranmming 98217A 9885M Flexible Disk Drive 98216A 9872A Plotter- General I/O - Extended I/O Has OS ROM in the side 09825-87905 #7 9825A (but marked 9825B next to the display) Full Travel keyboard. Inside paper cover it's marked " 9825B” and lists the following installed devices: 9872A Plotter, General I/O, Extended I/O, Advanced Programming, String, System Programming , Total Memory 61670 Bytes ROMS 98211A Matrix Has large warning label on outside top warning the user not to install any ROMs other than the 98211 matrix ROM or the 98217A Flexible Disk Drive ROM. Installing any plug-in ROM that is already built into the calculator may cause damage the machine.

28 years, 2 months

2
1
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What is the first computer?

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

<SNIP> > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them today, > it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the form of > fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) I remember seeing a picture of this machine-- it was a link-belt of cards in a loop, with holes punched through them. They would pass by this 'reader' thingie which would 'read' the card with a matrix of metal rods poking through the holes. Using cards in such a manner would be like kinda using a ROM chip as a character generator for a CRT display. Hence the wisecrack about CGA is actually not far from the mark! ;^) > >5) First digital computer > > Didn't someone just post a link about the "first digital computer" turning > 50 years old? It was on the BBC website, I believe. > > >6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) > >7) First computer to sell more than 1,000 > >8) " " " " " " 10,000 > >9) First computer to use a floppy disk (any kind of floppy) > > As for the rest, maybe somone more knowledgable than I can help you there. > > > ________________________________________ > john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - > webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - > "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - > enemy other people to shoot at." - > > > > > >

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

The nice thing about mechanisms is that all one needs to understand them theoretically is a finger, some Advil, and the ability to multiply/divide. Following a circuit board is much less intuitive. >I have access to the maintenance manuals for the later (ca.1940) types, >but they are very thick books jammed with drawings. Copying one would be a >real chore. Next time I am in Fall River I can see what I can find in >terms of drawings of the "big picture". > >The computers have _thousands_ of precision moving parts. The nice thing >is that they never broke. I am sure that one could lube up various bits of >one today and it would perfectly. One, a torpedo data computer on the >Submarine Pampanito, has gotten this treatment and does in fact work just >as it did 50 years ago. > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<It reads a set of instructions off the punch card, the gears or what hav <you interprets the pattern, and finally displays the output on the fabric <Sounds like a computer, in the broadest sense. The purists would say tha <it's not a computer unless it computes. I'm sure you could do math on it <with a few simple modifications though. The correct catagory is data processing. Specifics are that it's a predecessor to current CNC! Allison

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

>I'd give the honours of 1st computer to the Zuse Z1 - a relay machine >between the Wars, I think. But some mechanical calculators at that date >were quite sophisticated. Comments, anyone?? Well, I'd give computer credit to Babage's machine, ca. 1896, IIRC. He is, after all the one who coined the phrase "computer." Ciao, Tim D. Hotze

28 years, 2 months

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Old Microsoft stuff...

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

>It's a popular? misspelling of Xenix by people who can't read. If you >see Zenix on a resume, don't hire that person. Unless they were working for the company of the same name that made PC Mice. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 2 months

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Pen Windows 2.0

by higginbo＠netpath.net

At 01:41 PM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > >> Computer: GRiDPad 1912 (V20/2mb/20mb HD/640x400x2 6300 CGA mode > >CGA is 640x200. If you install GEOS, for example, you'll want to use the >AT&T graphics driver. Right. The manual states that 640x400x2 is a "tweaked" CGA mode. >IIRC, Pen Windows 1.0 was for Windows 3.x, and Pen Windows 2.0 was for >Windows 95. GEOS is by far your best bet if you want to burden the thing >with a GUI. I just tried to run it on my desktop. First question it askes was "What 22xx series of GRiDPad are you installing to?" Back to the drawing board. I doubt it'll work with the old 1912. If I could find GEOS, I'd install it. Only version I have is for the C-64. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." -

28 years, 2 months

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TI99: IDE vs. SCSI (for TI & Geneve)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Actually, you have one thing incorrect... IDE IS speed dependent. SCSI <a COMPLETELY asyncronous bus, IDE is simply an extension of the ISA bus a <does require a MINIMUM throughput of 1 megabit, which is not possible on <4a without buffer space and a DMA controller. Don't tell my z80 that... I debugged the interface using Basic right down to sector reads and writes. I read the spec as it must support 1mbyte/sec minimum to the host not that it required 1mbyte/sec from the host. The IDE is locally buffered just like SCSI so there is no need for speed save for the host can make requests very fast (Pentiums). IDE is also an async bus. Allison

28 years, 2 months

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CP/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Actually the NS* contrller and the apple one are very close in that the <> are minimalist. The NS controller can read media without index/sector < <As is the H17 - a USRT and a few TTL chips. Most of the work is done in <software. A USRT is far mor than minimalist as the NS* con troller is really just bare shift register with timing logic around it. <The H17 waits for a sector hole, waits for sync, reads a sector header (a <checksums it in software), waits for sync, reads data and checksums that Same with the NS* <Does anyone know a source of hard-sectored 5.25" disks (10 sector ones in <particular). I guess they're no longer made, alas. I have thought about <making up a jig, dismantling a soft-sectored disk, punching the extra <holes and putting the disk back in the jacket. Problem is resealing the <edge of the jacket which I've opened. Or doing it insitu using a old drive as a positioner. Allison

28 years, 2 months

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Old Microsoft stuff...

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

> > <Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? > <Apple - A/UX > <IBM - AIX > <MS - Xenix > <AT&T - UNIX > <DEC? > <DR? > > DEC ported ULTRIX which is close to BSD unix to both PDP11 and VAX. > > DR? I don't think so. > > which is which?: > > Venix Venix86 / 286 By VenturCom - IIRC, an (almost) real-time UNIX variant > Zenix Never Heard of this one . . . > Xenix > > What and who for those. > > Allison > > > >

28 years, 2 months

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Old Microsoft stuff...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What was so "interesting" about it? Who made it, why, and when? > >>Don't forget Eunice! OK, maybe it's better that you forget. > >Sounds of VMS administrator running screaming around the office. I thought >I'd got over that "interesting" piece of software, but clearly not :-) > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 >1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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Inventory compaction

by COAKLEY＠AC.GRIN.EDU

> > 1. An Amdek color monitor, originally for use with Apples (I think). RCA > > video input, eighth-inch audio input. I've used this as a spare TV, but > > the screen has a strong green tint to it. It's heavy. > > This was typically used on the Apple ][ line. That's the way I remember it. There was one on the Apple ][+ in my second-grade classroom. > > Spammers: How can you be sure that I don't live in Washington State? > > Did something happen in Washington that I'd like to know about? I've seen > mention to this twice now. The Washington legislature passed anti-spam legislation, and the governor signed it. Here's one site a quick altavista search turned up: http://www.mcnichol.com/spam.htm -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley(a)ac.grin.edu CMEL: Xavier CBEL: Xavier OH Spammers: How can you be sure that I don't live in Washington State?

28 years, 2 months

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old mac cards

by pcoad＠wco.com

As part of a deal I got a small pile of Mac nubus cards. My goal is to identify them and find them new homes before I need to get them shots, fixed, or they start reproducing in my closet like the 1200 bps modem cards seem to be doing. Farallon PhoneNET Card It has AUI and 10BaseT connectors. This one looks like an ethernet card. Is it? Apple Ethernet? card Has what looks like an AUI connector (female 15 pin) but without the locking slide device. Also has female BNC connector. On solder side it has "APPLE COMPUTER (C) 1987 820-0207-A and the word "hoke" near the upper back edge. Apple Macintosh IIci Cache Card (nubus) Duh. I can make a good guess at this one. Unknown nubus board Has markings DRO1 DEMO PC 10-184464- SER. NO. AA on component side. Has several unmarked chips and empty sockets. There is also a good deal of loose blue wire running hither and yon. On the end is a female 37 pin connector. Obviously this is a prototype. Is there any way to find out for what? Make me an offer. I have no way to test these cards. They are offered as is. As always I am looking for cool/old/strange/small Sun stuff. Cash is good too. Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html

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Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Well, they had an MCA bus- clearly superior! In fact, they were the closest anyone had ever come to PnP on a Wintel before USB and PCI. Except, it worked much more reliably. And then, there was the issue of quality of case and PCB... Let's put it this way... the PS/2s were actually DESIGNED, unlike many clones, which were cheap junk. And even the ISA machines were quite a bit nicer... >> >>hey, Hey,HEY! ps2 machines were announced in 1987 so they should be talked >>about rather than destroyed. no matter what anyone says, they were state of >>the art. certainly way ahead for their time. > > You MUST be kidding! > > Joe > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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OT: PS/2 cannon fodder

by peacock＠simconv.com

><< [When I get out my cannon!] > > Do you mean shooting the PS/2 out of the cannon at someone, or > shooting the PS/2 with the cannon? >> > > What a coincidence! I'm going to be shooting a cannon in 2 weeks at a party in the desert. It's a 75mm muzzleloader, 12 lb iron ore crusher balls for ammo. Now, anyone want to donate a PS/2 to discover what kind of damage a 3" cannonball can do? Jack Peacock

28 years, 2 months

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Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items

by higginbo＠netpath.net

At 10:25 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >> Speaking of big iron, what's the best place to look for DEC10s or 20s? > >Most of us would like that answer. Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly 80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, etc.) but will take just about anything. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." -

28 years, 2 months

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HP 9825B

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 06:18 PM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Joe wrote: > >> I also bid on it but I decided to let you have it since I have several of >> them already. > >Nice of you. I would have done the same. Maybe :-) Actually I think I bid on in it BEFORE you did. > >> There's at least three vesions, the A, the B and a T. The latter ones > >Mine is a B according the badge above the keyboard, but there's a sticker >on the printer paper cubby door that says 9825T. It also says something >about a plotter I don't have. Probably the 9862 or 9872. The are different ROMs for each. The plotters are the same except the 9872 can also digitize. I have a 9862. > > >I take it those are language extension ROMs. I've got Matrix. Yes, they add more functions similar to the plug in ROMs in the HP 41 or HP 71. > > >You have lots of docs? Can I take that as a subtle offer to copy >useful docs? :-) Er ahh no, they're are entirely too many of them! But I am going to thin them out as soon as I have time. > >> There are also two very different keybaords used on them. The 9825 at >> the bottom of your picture has the full travel keyboard. They're more >> desireable. > >More desirable to whom? To everyone but you I guess! >I like the odd-ball full qwerty calc-style >keyboard on mine much better than a normal keyboard! > Then you should be happy! I just posted a list of the configurations of my 9825s. About half of mine have the full travel keys. Joe >-- Doug > >

28 years, 2 months

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CP/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Most soft-sectored controllers (the LSI ones used in most other micros) <didn't use the index hole for very much, except during formatting. A <suprising number of machines will work quite happily with the index Try it you will find many cases where that is not totally true. <Hard sectored controllers (like the one in my Z-90) do need the sector <holes to find the start of a sector. Reason for that is by counting holes you don't have to look for marks on the disk. Allison

28 years, 2 months

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CP/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>OK, I know what a track and a sector is, but what is the difference <>between hardsector and softsector? < < Hard sectored disks have a sensor hole (or slot) for every sector. S <they will have one index hole and 16 sector holes for a 16 sector disk. 17! There is a intermediate hole to signal the start of track (rotation). Allison

28 years, 2 months

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Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...)

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-06-17 13:08:49 EDT, Daniel Seagraves responded: << [When I get out my cannon!] Do you mean shooting the PS/2 out of the cannon at someone, or shooting the PS/2 with the cannon? >> hey, Hey,HEY! ps2 machines were announced in 1987 so they should be talked about rather than destroyed. no matter what anyone says, they were state of the art. certainly way ahead for their time. david

28 years, 2 months

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HP 9825B

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Hi Doug, I also bid on it but I decided to let you have it since I have several of them already. At 01:33 PM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >I recently acquired a 9825B, and I've got some questions: > >Can I get some docs from somebody?! I can't figure out how to program the >thing. It uses HPL. HP's version of APL and BASIC crossed. Assign variables like this "A <- 2" "B <- 2*A" etc. > >The keyboard on mine appears to be different than that of another 9825B on >the net. How many different 9825B variations were there? There's at least three vesions, the A, the B and a T. The latter ones had most of the optional ROMs built in. BTW I just bought another one, it has a big warning label on it not to use any plug in ROMs other than the Matrix and String (I think). It says that the others are already built in and if you add a plug-in one that you may damage the calculator. I have lots of docs for these and 6 other 9825s but this is the first time that I've seen that warning. There are also two very different keybaords used on them. The 9825 at the bottom of your picture has the full travel keyboard. They're more desireable. A pic of mine >juxtaposed with somebody else's is at: > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/hp/ > >My "exectute" key is stuck. I haven't taken the machine appart yet, but >the keyboard mechanism isn't likely to match anything I have laying around >the house. Does anybody have any experience repairing this machine's >keyboard? Yeap! If it's only stuck you can usually pull them up and fix them. > >BTW, it seems like a great machine! I like the LED display. Did anybody >ever make a similar model, but with, say, an 80x24 character LED display? Yes, HP did except they used a CRT. The HP 9826 replaced the 9825. The 9826 was shaped like an oversized Apple computer and had an integrated keyboard, 5" monitor and 5 1/4" disk drive. You can see one on my webpage at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9000.htm". The 9826 used a 68000 CPU and could run HPL, BASIC or Pascal. All of the languages were USUALLY stored on disks and loaded from there but you could get the languages on plug-in ROM cards. You could have any or all languages on the same drive and/or in ROM on the same computer and you could select the one that you wanted the computer to load. I have a drive with all three languages on it and BASIC in ROM on one computer. The 9826 was also called a 9000 226 model and was part of the HP 9000 series 200 computer family that included the 9836 (aka 9000/236), 9836C, 9816 (aka 9000/216), 9000/220 and 9000/217. Even though the 9826 was designated as the replacement for the 9825 all the computers in that family are generaly compatible. The primary differences were the number of expansion slots, integrated vs. modular construction, overall size, number of built in drives and wheather they had monochrome or color displays. I have pictures on several of them on my website. Joe > >-- Doug > >

28 years, 2 months

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MindSet

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

I took a gander at this page; is the mindset related to the MAD computer? If so, then I have a Floppydrive/powersupply "upper half", if you want it. Jeff > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, George Currie wrote: > > > Finally acquired a MindSet pc this weekend, way cool. So now I'm looking for > > anyone who has _anything_ for this unit (docs, specific software, carts, > > anything). Any useful links would be handy too. > > I have the stereo module and will trade it for the computer itself :-) > > http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw/comp/mindset.html > > -- Doug > > > >

28 years, 2 months

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MindSet

by g＠kurico.com

Finally acquired a MindSet pc this weekend, way cool. So now I'm looking for anyone who has _anything_ for this unit (docs, specific software, carts, anything). Any useful links would be handy too. TIA George

28 years, 2 months

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(OT, in a way...)

by homeline＠ezl.com

>I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the >heck >are we supposed to pronounce it? > >Simple, as anyone who owns a .30-06 deer rifle can tell tell you, it >will be the "double ought" decade. Same as 100 years ago, the first >year will be "ought zero". BTW, .30-06 is a US rifle caliber, .308 >inches (7.62mm), designed in 1906, or "thirty ought six". 20 years from >now, we'll be talking about that old 500Mhz P II made back in "Ought >One". > Jack Peacock > > Hi guys & gals! Uhh, lets not confuse .308in bullet size with bullet caliber. The .308 Winchester cartridge was introduced in 1952 and adpoted in 1954 by the U.S. military. It was designed with a reduced overall weight(a little shorter). The idea was that a G.I. could carry more ammo into combat! The correct military designation for this cartridge was 7.62x51mm NATO. BTW, I believe it's "aught" with an A! Sorry, computers are not my only hobby. Cliff Boyer

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

The point is that it's possible to just "figure it out" by looking. If you don't know what a cam is for, by process of elimination, it's possible to eventually understand. On the other hand, if you're staring at a board of custom chips, you'll never figure it out without a computer to read the code in them. > >And integrate and differentiate! That is _really_ had to do if you do not >know the functions of the cams! The trig functions can also be completely >non-obvious! > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by jfedorko＠virtualadmin.com

If I remember right, those were the 1st computer manuals I ever got my hands on as a kid, it was incredible stuff and caught my interest. Might even still have a few in Mom's attic. -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli [SMTP:william@ans.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 3:51 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Re[2]: What is the first computer? > Ah yes! The (then) ubiquitous Mark 1A (One Able) fire control computer. > Probably the only greater marvel were the fire controlmen who were able > to keep them in operation when repairs were necessary. Most of the computers were very hardy things and rarely broke down. When they did, these highly trained technicians would be called in to do the repairs, using all sorts of special tools (like really thin wrenches and other "not-at-Home-Depot" type things. William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

John Higginbotham (or someone) wrote: >>2) First human made computer (program given for input, so abbacus doesn't >>count, output given) > > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them > today, it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the > form of fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) :-) Someone has mentioned Jacquard, I think. He didn't invent punched cards, afaik, he got the idea from a Brit. I'll try and find out more, but I don't think either was a computer. The Jacquard loom doesn't run a program - it transfers data from cards to fabric. Full stop. I'd give the honours of 1st computer to the Zuse Z1 - a relay machine between the Wars, I think. But some mechanical calculators at that date were quite sophisticated. Comments, anyone?? >>5) First digital computer > > Didn't someone just post a link about the "first digital computer" turning > 50 years old? It was on the BBC website, I believe. They may have done, but the Manchester SSEM (Small Scale Experimental Machine) was the first computer to STORE ITS PROGRAM IN MAIN MEMORY, i.e. answer 4. Again, Konrad Zuse's pre-war relay computers were digital. Go and watch them running the Z4 in Munich... Philip.

28 years, 2 months

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HP 9825B

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> writes: > I recently acquired a 9825B, and I've got some questions: > > Can I get some docs from somebody?! I can't figure out how to program the > thing. Heh. I spent a couple of evenings trying to figure these things out (have two, an A and a B) with mixed results. HPL is definitely case sensitive. The little dinky manual that fits under the printer cover is not enough documentation to learn how to program it. That is all the docs I have though. > The keyboard on mine appears to be different than that of another 9825B on > the net. How many different 9825B variations were there? A pic of mine > juxtaposed with somebody else's is at: > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/hp/ In spite of what the hpmuseum.org web pages say, there are at least two 9825Bs out there with the calculator-style keyboard. Mine's like that too. I'm not sure whether it's a 9825A->B field upgrade or what. > BTW, it seems like a great machine! I like the LED display. Did anybody > ever make a similar model, but with, say, an 80x24 character LED display? I doubt it...those little dot-matrix LEDs were expensive compared to a CRT. -Frank McConnell

28 years, 2 months

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Old Alpha's (OT)

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> There have been several extension to the Alphatronic PC. >> floppy boxes and even a HD box. THe base for CP/M was >> the dual floppy box. I'm amazed - someone who's heard of these things! :) >>> They were made by Triumph-Adler, from what I remember. Any information >>> on these boxes would be most helpful!! (I have the original manuals, but >>> they don't exactly go into a lot of detail) >> >> Just Tell me whats missing - I think I maybe have some of the >> stuff. Including Flopyy and Hard Disk drives. Well all I have are the basic Alphatronic PC units (three of these I think, although I seem to remember that the keyboard status on two of them is far from perfect - these things used to be really abused when used as terminals), one original shipping carton, two manuals, and that's it. Oh, did these things come with monitors at all? Most of the ones we had at university had 12" mono screens hooked up to them, but I don't know if they were original or not (I have a couple of these - similar shape to DEC VT320 terminals). The manuals I have (IIRC) both mention that the systems can be expanded to run CP/M, but no mention of how or what was needed; there's no pin-outs of the expansion port, cartridge slots or anything. > >> Owning a Alphatronic PC and 2 Alphatronics hmm, so what's the difference between the two? Mine are all badged "Alphatronic PC", but I checked with the university staff before I left and they never had any floppy / hard drive systems with them... (This is where I really hate not having my collection around at home, it's been so long since I've powered one of these things up I can't even remember what CPU they had. I vaguely recall that they had a lot of fairly non-standard chips inside though; the CPU may have been a rebadged part of some description) cheers Jules >

28 years, 2 months

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CP/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Apple is weird with their formats, nearly hardsector. C-128 has a few < <Actually, Apple was the _ultimate_ soft-sector, as it didn't pay any <attention to sector detect at all -- it had to read the whole track <then figure out where it started. It's a major reason why database <applications were never a big thing on Apples until hard disks showed <up -- updating things by record was only possible by writing whole <tracks. My comment was that apple format is not unlike hardsector in that it's not readable with most softsectored controllers. For all intents it was not unlike the usually vendor unique hard sector formats. Also DBASEII ran well on apples with floppies. The only penelty of reading an entire track was memory space. The payback was speed as there was an implied track level caching. Allison

28 years, 2 months

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CP/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

16 blank lines deleted. <Did MP/M run on Z-80s? BTW, is there a reasonable chance the CP/M on Yes and 8080s as well. The later version for 8088 were called CCPM (concurrent cpm). IN both cases they were multiuser/multiprocess OS that were really better than most. The z80 version was pretty decent on a 6 or 8mhz banked machine that had DMA for disk IO. The DMA was important as some hardware sued the cpu spinning in tight loops to do PIO to floppies and HDs, very inefficient used of cpu cycles. A common use for MPM was to use it for disk services to multiple slaves running cpm2(or 3) or CPnet. A crate constructed that way could easily have a z80 per user plus the MPM server and provide excellent response in a compact box. TELTEK, KONAN, macrotech and others offered cpus boards for both services. The difference in the boards were generaly amount of ram and presence of disk interfaces. <one micro w/5.25" disks be compatible with another with 5.25" disks, <i.e. my apple with a C-128? Also, if a computer can run CP/M 3+ can it Apple is weird with their formats, nearly hardsector. C-128 has a few compatable and incompatable formats. The rest were all over the map. Allison

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Do you have any diagrams of the mechanical fire control computers? > >The line is always grey... > >> Didn't that have something to do with RADAR? Or was it cryptography? > >No, not radar. > >Radar, incidently, was just about the first use of digital electonics. >Although there was no computation at the digital level*, vacuum tube >flip-flops and counters were used in the timing circuits, as well in IFF >codes (The NRL even tried out a pre-1940 IFF box that used a real binary >word for the codes, with the hope that encryption would follow. It turned >out to just be a lab rat, however, and most of the war years saw the >horrible British MkIII system in use.). > >*The mechanical fire control computers, on the other hand, are truely >awesome devices. They would accept a bunch of real time input data (some >from the radars, some from the ships' gyros, some from the gun pointers >(sailors), and even internal data like how many times the gun was >fired (wear on the barrels)) - and output a bunch of data to set up the >shot. It worked well - incredibly well - 20 mile hits on the first shot >were not uncommon. It took YEARS before an electronic computer could rival >them. > >Tons of metal, but built like a Swiss watch. > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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Location, Location, Location!

by franke＠sbs.de

> It would be nifty to have a web page with a list of Computer > Rescue Squad volunteers paired with their geographical coordinates, > with even perhaps a link to any one of the map-servers out there. Count me in :) 48 8' N 11 33' E Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

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uV SCSI/ DMA-Incomplete messages

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Anyway, concerning the uVAX SCSI/DMA code, seeing as <1, the SCSI code works most of the time, and <2, retrying when it fails clears the problem (most of the time), <why not patch the DMA code to retry an operation instead of failing <and returning SIGSEGV? Of course, this will get you when something actua <fails, but could it be tried? Err, how about fixing the scsi code so it works correctly and only flagging fatal errors or warnings where warrented. This would remove a lot of "soft" errors and likely clean up other problems as well. Allison

28 years, 2 months

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Location, Location, Location!

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-06-17 13:28:14 EDT, you write: << It would be nifty to have a web page with a list of Computer Rescue Squad volunteers paired with their geographical coordinates, with even perhaps a link to any one of the map-servers out there. >> wasnt there something similar posted last year? the name isaac comes to mind. anyone remember? david

28 years, 2 months

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Inventory compaction

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

My mom got fed up by the amount of junk I have in my room, so I will start to get rid of it (something I'd been planning to do). I have an external keyboard that plugs into the keyboard socket on the Apple ][ motherboard. It works fine, weighs three pounds. It has macro modules for basic, CP/M, wordstar, visicalc that plug into a little socket and modify a row of keys at the top (templates included) A little yellow, though. Anyone want? The other item is the 10-pound DG-One laptop with a smashed screen, no AC adaptor, dead battery pack, and BUTTONS on the floppy drives! I am zip code 02135. If anyone wants either just tell me. I also have a TI 99/4a w/o cartridges, seems to work fine. I think I'll just trash that... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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CP/M

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

yes, i did the same with apple ][ floppies. i never used the special tool to punch the index hole as a sharp x-acto knife worked well. i do have one box of flippies at home and i never had a problem with using the "wrong" side. In a message dated 98-06-17 12:33:56 EDT, philip belben put forth: << Likewise the Commodore 8-bitters. In the early 1980s, I was one of the first in my school (I was 14 or so at the time) to own a floppy disk (yes, a disk, not a drive). I had heard of "flippy disks" with two index holes, which you could turn over, thus using both surfaces in a single sided drive. But I didn't realise you needed to give it a second index hole. So I just cut a second write-permit notch and turned it over. It worked! Commodore 4040 didn't use the index hole! Philip. >>

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Leonardo DaVinci is quoted as saying, "Computers are useless. They can only give answers". This was obviously way before 1850. >> after all the one who coined the phrase "computer." > >Really? I've certainly seen "computer" in use in written communications >from the 1850's. Of course, it wasn't until the late 1940's that "computer" >meant a machine and not a person, in common usage! > >Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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Old Alpha's (OT)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> There have been several extension to the Alphatronic PC. >>> floppy boxes and even a HD box. THe base for CP/M was >>> the dual floppy box. > I'm amazed - someone who's heard of these things! :) >>>> They were made by Triumph-Adler, from what I remember. Any information >>>> on these boxes would be most helpful!! (I have the original manuals, but >>>> they don't exactly go into a lot of detail) >>> Just Tell me whats missing - I think I maybe have some of the >>> stuff. Including Flopyy and Hard Disk drives. > Well all I have are the basic Alphatronic PC units (three of these I > think, although I seem to remember that the keyboard status on two of > them is far from perfect - these things used to be really abused when > used as terminals), one original shipping carton, two manuals, and > that's it. > > Oh, did these things come with monitors at all? Most of the ones we had > at university had 12" mono screens hooked up to them, but I don't know > if they were original or not (I have a couple of these - similar shape > to DEC VT320 terminals). > > The manuals I have (IIRC) both mention that the systems can be expanded > to run CP/M, but no mention of how or what was needed; there's no > pin-outs of the expansion port, cartridge slots or anything. >>> Owning a Alphatronic PC and 2 Alphatronics > hmm, so what's the difference between the two? Mine are all badged > "Alphatronic PC", but I checked with the university staff before I left > and they never had any floppy / hard drive systems with them... > (This is where I really hate not having my collection around at home, > it's been so long since I've powered one of these things up I can't even > remember what CPU they had. I vaguely recall that they had a lot of > fairly non-standard chips inside though; the CPU may have been a > rebadged part of some description) The Alphatronic PC was the last version of a somewhat successfull line of Alphatronics - The PC is a keyboard computer like the ATARI XL (but with a real keyboard) and based on the Z80. The 'old' Alphatronics where clumpsy cases with fixed keyboard like the CBM, but without a build in CRT - but they had TWO 5,25" 2/3rd high FD drives - both on the right side, one above the other - the case was quite big. As a CPU the 8085 was used. The whole system is build on several EuroCard size boards (all in a rack on the left side - thats why the FDs had to be on the other side. They has several variations (I don't want to call it modells) over the time, but basicly all the same. In Europe, especialy in Germany (their orgin) they sold like Commodores and Apples in average quanities. The PC has been directed to open the home market and to compete against all the home computers of the early '80s. I have some of the early documentation for the old ones, and maybe some newer stuff (manuals for disk etc.) Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

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Old Microsoft stuff...

by franke＠sbs.de

>>Another microsoft product which I've not seen mentioned here yet was, of >>course, the Microsoft mouse for PCs (and later those Microsoft keyboards) > Those bus mice? I worked on a friend's machine that had one: A Xerox XT > class running Windows 1.0. 640x400x2 mode I believe. Oh yeah, they were > called Inport Bus mice, ran off their own 8-bit card. Not a bad mouse for > it's time. The BUS Mouse was ... err IS ... a very useful device - I used to put them in my PCs (even Pentium) until the build PS/2 mouse became standard. Serial mice need serial ports, and a PC still has only a few :( Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

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Location! Location! Location! was: Something about big iron

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

You know John, You are absolutely right. In regards to the IMSAI posted here earlier, it is located in Wichita, Kansas. Please pardon this oversight. Jeff > >Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my > >general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly > >80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, > >etc.) but will take just about anything. > > Location! Location! Location! Isn't this thread all about the > bare fact that most old computers are too heavy or too worthless > to ship by conventional means, and that personal pick-up is necessary? > > Yes, it is. Yet people continue to post "here's an extensive > IMSAI system that you'll need to pick up in person" without a > single word as to where it's located. Argh! > > - John > > > >

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

A bunch of lusers with a site that looks like Microsoft's (exactly), and a slogan, "Warez do you want to go today?". >United Cracking wha??? What kind of lusers are they? (To take a wild >guess, those who think VMS is related to PMS, UNIX is dead, Linux is a >nickname, and SPARC is what you get when you try to ignite a firework?) > Ciao, > >Tim D. Hotze >-----Original Message----- >From: Max Eskin <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 6:04 PM >Subject: Re: What is the first computer? > > >> >> >> >> >>What's a 4004, d00d? I thawt tha first chip was Pantium! >>--Brought to you by the United Cracking Force >>>> 6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) >>> >>>Shame on you! One does not need microprocessors to make a microchip >>based >>>machine! >>> >>>William Donzelli >>>william(a)ans.net >>> >>> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items

by higginbo＠netpath.net

Burlington, North Carolina Research Triangle Park about 45 minutes to the east of me, Charlotte 150 miles southwest. I know you can get arcade machines on the west coast pretty cheap, but that really doesn't help me. All the big manufacturers are out west. :( At 10:43 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >> Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my >> general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly >> 80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, >> etc.) but will take just about anything. > >Well, this leads to the obvious question... > >WHERE ARE YOU? ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." -

28 years, 2 months

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Cross listing Ebay items

by peacock＠simconv.com

>During my hiatus, I was spending alot of time on usenet, >a place where this is done all the time. Well no, it isn't done all the time. At least on the comp.sys, comp.os, and alt.comp newsgroups I follow. It's considered spam and those who do it are invited to go elsewhere. Besides, no point in listing that stuff here if you are also going to ebay, the people here know the relative scarcity/worth of the items. On ebay you can take advantage of ignorance and buying frenzy. Jack Peacock

28 years, 2 months

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Old Microsoft stuff...

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 04:41 PM 16-06-98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >Don't forget Eunice! OK, maybe it's better that you forget. Sounds of VMS administrator running screaming around the office. I thought I'd got over that "interesting" piece of software, but clearly not :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"

28 years, 2 months

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CP/M

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

OK, I know what a track and a sector is, but what is the difference between hardsector and softsector? >Allison J Parent wrote: > >> <one micro w/5.25" disks be compatible with another with 5.25" disks, >> <i.e. my apple with a C-128? Also, if a computer can run CP/M 3+ can it >> >> Apple is weird with their formats, nearly hardsector. C-128 has a few >> compatable and incompatable formats. The rest were all over the map. > >Actually, Apple was the _ultimate_ soft-sector, as it didn't pay any >attention to sector detect at all -- it had to read the whole track >then figure out where it started. It's a major reason why database >applications were never a big thing on Apples until hard disks showed >up -- updating things by record was only possible by writing whole >tracks. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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Old Alpha's (OT)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> Which "Alpha"? Alpha Micro? > Hmm, is that "Alpha micro" as in "Alphatronic PC"? I have a few of those > things lying around someplace in various states - my old university > wrote their own terminal software for them, burned it out to eeprom, and > we used to use them as terminals to access the Unix systems. > IIRC I did see reference to an expansion box that allowed the use of > hard drives with CP/M on - I did a lot of digging at the time and never > turned up anything for them - I just had the custom Uni terminal ROMs > and a set of BASIC ROMs that originally came with the machines. There have been several extension to the Alphatronic PC. floppy boxes and even a HD box. THe base for CP/M was the dual floppy box. > They were made by Triumph-Adler, from what I remember. Any information > on these boxes would be most helpful!! (I have the original manuals, but > they don't exactly go into a lot of detail) Just Tell me whats missing - I think I maybe have some of the stuff. Including Flopyy and Hard Disk drives. Servus Hans Owning a Alphatronic PC and 2 Alphatronics -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

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Baby's birthday... Web Page on BBC

by gim＠hitec-uk.com

Some cool pics on this page. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_114000/114493.stm

28 years, 2 months

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Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> OK. I just purchased a Windows CE handheld. I realized that: >> 1) It represents MS's rebirth. That, along with cross-platform apps, means >> that MS isn't going to be doing to much with Windows 9x/NT after a couple >> years... > Thanks for the tip, Tim. I'll dump all of my intel stock now. :-) But buy what ? DEC ? >> 2) It's lighting fast, and covers all kinds of processors. > The H/PC was a bit of a flop. For some reason, not many people wanted to > buy a machine that looked like Windows95, but ran on slower hardware with > no application compatibility. > However, I like the new Pilot rip-off, the Palm-sized PC, better. And if > you've never seen their Auto PC for cars, brace yourself for some drooling > (guaranteed to flop at the current $2K price though). They're also making > inroads into embedded systems with CE. Here you have only one solution: Buy a Newton - the MP2x00 is _WAY_ cool, neat and just great AND best of all thanks to Apple it's a brand new out of production classic. >> 2) With a MIPS-based handheld, could I get stuff moving between this and my >> N64? > Sure, just as easily as you can move stuff between the 6502 based Nintendo > and an AIM-65 (i.e., no way dOOd -- even if the CPU is the same, nothing > else is). However, I seem to recall that Microsoft recently signed-up a > game machine manufacturer for CE, and it was either Nintendo or Sega. Sega - and I bet they anounce 'General Failure' as the commander of the first shut-em-up game :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

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FS: IBM PC Jr Tech. Refefence

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I found this while cleaning up. Anyone need it? For sale for best offer. Joe

28 years, 2 months

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CP/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<OK, I know what a track and a sector is, but what is the difference <between hardsector and softsector Hardsectored uses physical landmarks like index and sector holes on the media to locate sectors. Softsector uses various data marks on the media to locate the data. It's possible to do a hard sector scheme that looks like softsector but, the difference between them in older machines is the basic format is such that most controller chips like the 372, 1771, 1791, 8271 and 765 cannot read them. Apple combined and simplified the disk controller to software and some trivial logic. Allison

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by PB14＠leicester.ac.uk

On 17 Jun 98 at 9:17, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > <SNIP> > > > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century > > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a > > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did > > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them today, > > it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the form of > > fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) > > I remember seeing a picture of this machine-- it was a link-belt of > cards in a loop, with holes punched through them. They would pass by > this 'reader' thingie which would 'read' the card with a matrix of > metal rods poking through the holes. According to the dictionary I just scrounged: Jacquard (noun) Apparatus with perforated cards to facilitate weaving of figured fabrics.

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

United Cracking wha??? What kind of lusers are they? (To take a wild guess, those who think VMS is related to PMS, UNIX is dead, Linux is a nickname, and SPARC is what you get when you try to ignite a firework?) Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 6:04 PM Subject: Re: What is the first computer? > > > > >What's a 4004, d00d? I thawt tha first chip was Pantium! >--Brought to you by the United Cracking Force >>> 6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) >> >>Shame on you! One does not need microprocessors to make a microchip >based >>machine! >> >>William Donzelli >>william(a)ans.net >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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Prodcutivity (was Re: PDP model line / rarity?)

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> Win without Intel make either a small frisbee or a coaster for tea. it's a habit of mine everytime I receive free microsoft junk cds in the post at work to see how many chunks I can snip out of the CD before win NT has a complete fit trying to read the contents and blue-screens on me... :) >> However, I read in "Insanely Great" >> that a study had been run in the early 80's that didn't find >> computers to have improved productivity. That I can easily believe. Ok, certain tasks get done faster than they traditionally would have, but overall I don't think things are any quicker when you add up network downtime, system crashes, printing out documents before they can be reviewed, ordering more hardware to cope with the latest bloated apps etc. etc. (before you say it, yes I *know* I'm in the wrong business :) I'd love to hear anything that you come across about that study... cheers Jules (and as for the advent of email... it's terrible for time-wasting at work... ;*) >

28 years, 2 months

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What is the first computer?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What's a 4004, d00d? I thawt tha first chip was Pantium! --Brought to you by the United Cracking Force >> 6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) > >Shame on you! One does not need microprocessors to make a microchip based >machine! > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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CP/M

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

C'mon. Even I basically know this one. A hard sectored diskette has tiny little holes (IIRC, near the inside), so that the computer would move from one to the next in a mechanical manner (hardware), while MOST soft sectored diskettes had a single hole used for refference. From there, it would just spin around, and control the rest by software. The Apple II, however, COMPLETELY ignored this. It could use hard sectored or soft sectored diskettes, or even diskettes with no little hole at all. It was completely software driven. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 5:44 PM Subject: Re: CP/M > > > > >OK, I know what a track and a sector is, but what is the difference >between hardsector and softsector? >>Allison J Parent wrote: >> >>> <one micro w/5.25" disks be compatible with another with 5.25" disks, >>> <i.e. my apple with a C-128? Also, if a computer can run CP/M 3+ can >it >>> >>> Apple is weird with their formats, nearly hardsector. C-128 has a >few >>> compatable and incompatable formats. The rest were all over the map. >> >>Actually, Apple was the _ultimate_ soft-sector, as it didn't pay any >>attention to sector detect at all -- it had to read the whole track >>then figure out where it started. It's a major reason why database >>applications were never a big thing on Apples until hard disks showed >>up -- updating things by record was only possible by writing whole >>tracks. >>-- >>Ward Griffiths >>They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >>Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. >> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >

28 years, 2 months

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Prodcutivity (was Re: PDP model line / rarity?)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Win without Intel make either a small frisbee or a coaster for tea. You can also make art out of them. However, I read in "Insanely Great" that a study had been run in the early 80's that didn't find computers to have improved productivity. Anyone know more about that? >> hey, wintel machines are great fun - at least in the sense that they're >> amusing due to the terrible hardware and software that's a complete joke >> :) >> >> Jules > >Hire the handicapped. They don't get much work done, but they're fun >to watch. > >(And Intel _without_ Win runs dynamite Linux). >(Win _without_ Intel runs -- well, not much). >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

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Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items

by jfedorko＠virtualadmin.com

I'd almost be interested in a gutted 360 if the front panel was intact! Speaking of big iron, what's the best place to look for DEC10s or 20s? Maybe even a 360/20? I think a 360/90 would be neat but the CPU and cooling would fill my garage. -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli [SMTP:william@ans.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 11:33 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items > My problem is not so much distance as it is time. I'd gladly do a week-end > trip to, say, Los Angeles (~500 miles), for most anything, if I didn't have > to spend the time a) working, b) with my dad, c) with my girlfriend or d) > sleeping (ha!). That is why I put in all of those "assumes". I know planning such a trip is almost impossible for those of us that have lives/families/jobs. I just wanted to see just how far some of us would take the hells of the Interstates. Incidently, I do not drive the Interstates much, as there are not many junkyards along them. US routes, on the other hand, have them. If anyone wants a pair of gutted S/360s, I will show them just where along Illinois 1 to find them! William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

28 years, 2 months

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Old Microsoft stuff...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Ultrix was a layer over VMS. Nowadays there is an official DEC Unix Sorry no, I have Ultrix4.2/VAX and it's unix alright. <for the Alpha, though not as good as Linux for that platform. IMAO. I'd be surprized it that were true. DIGITAL Unix has a more mature development path. I also have VENIX on a PRO350, can't tell it from V7 in the 11/73. Allison

28 years, 2 months

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Getting further and further OT RE: Couldn't be mor

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> Couldn't you take this on some other list? I really hate to say this >> since it is one of my hobbies but this is teariblely off topic. well said - I hate to say it too, even though it's definitely not one of my hobbies and is starting to get rather annoying - this list normally seems pretty good for not having loads of off-topic stuff on it... cheers Jules (rats, now I've gone and contributed to the amount of off-topic posts on this this by sending this... :) >

28 years, 2 months

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Getting further and further OT RE: Couldn't be mor

by CharlesII＠nwonline.net

CL>At 10:12 AM 6/16/98 -0700, you wrote: CL>>-----Original Message----- CL>>> Well if you want to be exact, the .308 and 7.62mm rounds are two CL>>>different things! .308 is the commercial designation and 7.62mm is CL>>the CL>>>military designation and the two rounds are slightly different. Many CL>> CL>>There are numerous .30 caliber rifles and pistols. I was referring to CL>>the diameter. There is the .30-06 (WW I/II vintage), the .308 (late CL>>50's, early Vietnam vintage, NATO), the 7.62x39 (Russian, Korea to CL>>present), the .30-30 (the famous lever action Winchester of the late CL>>1800s), the .300 Savage (first rifle to exceed 2000 fps, also late CL>>1800s), the .30 M1 carbine (WW II vintage), the .300 Winchester Magnum, CL>>the 7.62 Nagant, etc. All use the same basic diameter .308 bullet. CL>> CL> No, they don't. The Nagant (7.62x 64) has a groove diameter of .310" and CL>uses a .311"-.312" size bullet. The 7.62 x 39 is also an odd size but I CL>don't remember the exact measurement, it's probably also .311"-.312". Some CL>of the US bullet companies are now making special bullets for those two. CL>FWIW When Ruger made the Mini-30 they sized the barrel for the (US) CL>standard .308" bullets instead of the normal Russian ones. CL> Joe CL> Couldn't you take this on some other list? I really hate to say this since it is one of my hobbies but this is teariblely off topic. Thanks.

28 years, 2 months

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FW: FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC

by higginbo＠netpath.net

Well, I don't have a need or want for it, but I do only live 45 minutes away if someone needs a warm body to go snag it. If anything, I might be interested in the 19" rack unit itself, no guts. So, if anyone wants to pick it up, I'm available. At 05:26 AM 6/17/98 GMT, kyrrin(a)jps.net wrote: > ATTN: Rescue folk (with a budget) in Durham, NC: This fellow's got a >lot of decent 11/23 stuff. His asking price seems right on the border of >high, but I'll bet he could be talked down if one is serious about it. > > Contact him directly if interested. Attachment follows. > >-=-=- <snip> -=-=- > >On 17 Jun 1998 03:22:46 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: > >>>From: biggers(a)gui.modelview.com (Mark R. Biggers) >>>Newsgroups: triangle.forsale,alt.sys.pdp11,misc.forsale.computers.other.systems >>>Subject: FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC >>>Date: 17 Jun 1998 03:22:46 GMT >>>Organization: MindSpring Enterprises >>>Lines: 87 >>>Message-ID: <slrn6oedi1.su.biggers(a)gui.modelview.com> >>>Reply-To: biggers(a)_no_spam_saiph.com >>>NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38ldc1f.dialup.mindspring.com >>>Keywords: DEC PDP-11/23 >>>X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) >>>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.c om!207.172.3.49!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mind spring.com!biggers >>>Xref: blushng.jps.net triangle.forsale:4284 alt.sys.pdp11:164 misc.forsale.computers.other.systems:746 >>> >>>FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC >>> >>>I have for sale or donation a *package* of PDP-11/23 minicomputers and >>>software: >>> >>>* The PDP-11/23 system (all 18-bit, I think): >>> >>> 1 M8186 LSI-11/23 CPU card, MMU but no FP chip. >>> 1 M8059FC 128Kx16bit memory card ? >>> 2 M8044 32Kx16bit memory card >>> 1 M8043 DLV11-J quad serial line controller >>> 1 M8013 RLV11 RL02 disk controller (2 card set) >>> 1 M8014 " " " " >>> 1 M8012YA BVD11YA backplane controller with ROM, clock, etc >>> >>>* The PDP-11/23 PLUS system (looks almost brand-new): >>> >>> 1 M8089 PDP-11/23+ CPU card with MMU, FP and CIS chip sets >>> 1 M8067KB MVS11-P memory, 256Kx22bit >>> 1 8061 RLV12 RL02 disk controller >>> 1 M7957 DZV11-J controller >>> >>> 2 RL02 disk drives >>> 15 RL02 disk packs (10Mb each) >>> 1 bus extension card (pushes the card outside the cabinet) >>> >>>* Other hardware >>> >>> 1 RX02 dual 8" disk drive with controller card >>> >>> 2 4x9 slot card cages, one 18-bit bus, one 22-bit. Both have >>> heavy duty power supplies, fans, power/reset/halt switches. >>> >>> 1 4'x19" DEC rack >>> 1 single height blank panel >>> 4 sets of sliders >>> >>> The rack holds 6 single height modules: the CPUs' card cages >>> are all single height, the disks are all double height. The rack >>> comes with a filtered, remote-switched power distribution panel. >>> >>> National Semi Q-bus 22-bit, 512KB memory bought at TCF in 1990 or so. >>> >>>* Books/software: >>> >>> Old RT-11 (Version 4.1?) distribution on RL02 and RX02 media >>> Includes all kernel sources and macro assembler. >>> >>> Fortran, basic, DIBOL (DEC COBOL) and a few other things >>> >>> Complete RT-11 manual set (3 feet of binders) plus assorted PDP >>> data books and other stuff >>> >>> Complete schematics for an 11/23+ (this is the field set). >>> >>> BSD2.9 manuals >>> >>> My docs are all 1983/1984 vintage, which is fine for the boards I >>> have, but they don't document newer Q-bus stuff. >>> >>>==== >>>> I am asking $199 or BEST OFFER for the package. <<<< >>> >>>It all must go as a LOT -- no piecemeal sales. >>> >>>You'll need a full-size pickup truck, a industrial-grade hand-truck >>>and two strong bodies (hopefully not including mine). >>> >>>I would like to get this equipment to someone who will *use it*, as >>>opposed to someone who wants one board or manual and will put the >>>remainder in a dumpster. The buyer should at least *properly recycle >>>the equipment* that is not needed. >>> >>>Most of it was working when obtained. I saw the 11/23 system booted >>>and running off the RL02s, under RT-11 (in 1991). The 19" rack has >>>been sitting crated since that time (without any computer equipment >>>inside) in the damp basement of my house -- I have no idea of its >>>current condition. Everything else is upstairs, in the way... >>> >>>I'm located in Durham, North Carolina, very close to I-85 (2.5 hours >>>to Richmond VA, 4+ hours to D.C., 9 hours to NYC by car). >>> >>>EMAIL: biggers(a)_no_spam_saiph.com >>> (remove the anti-spam to reply, thanks!) >>> >>>or CALL 919-286-1441 >>> >>>----mark > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) >http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net >Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. >I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. > - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

28 years, 2 months

1
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FW: FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC

by kyrrin＠jps.net

ATTN: Rescue folk (with a budget) in Durham, NC: This fellow's got a lot of decent 11/23 stuff. His asking price seems right on the border of high, but I'll bet he could be talked down if one is serious about it. Contact him directly if interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- On 17 Jun 1998 03:22:46 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>From: biggers(a)gui.modelview.com (Mark R. Biggers) >>Newsgroups: triangle.forsale,alt.sys.pdp11,misc.forsale.computers.other.systems >>Subject: FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC >>Date: 17 Jun 1998 03:22:46 GMT >>Organization: MindSpring Enterprises >>Lines: 87 >>Message-ID: <slrn6oedi1.su.biggers(a)gui.modelview.com> >>Reply-To: biggers(a)_no_spam_saiph.com >>NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38ldc1f.dialup.mindspring.com >>Keywords: DEC PDP-11/23 >>X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.172.3.49!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!biggers >>Xref: blushng.jps.net triangle.forsale:4284 alt.sys.pdp11:164 misc.forsale.computers.other.systems:746 >> >>FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC >> >>I have for sale or donation a *package* of PDP-11/23 minicomputers and >>software: >> >>* The PDP-11/23 system (all 18-bit, I think): >> >> 1 M8186 LSI-11/23 CPU card, MMU but no FP chip. >> 1 M8059FC 128Kx16bit memory card ? >> 2 M8044 32Kx16bit memory card >> 1 M8043 DLV11-J quad serial line controller >> 1 M8013 RLV11 RL02 disk controller (2 card set) >> 1 M8014 " " " " >> 1 M8012YA BVD11YA backplane controller with ROM, clock, etc >> >>* The PDP-11/23 PLUS system (looks almost brand-new): >> >> 1 M8089 PDP-11/23+ CPU card with MMU, FP and CIS chip sets >> 1 M8067KB MVS11-P memory, 256Kx22bit >> 1 8061 RLV12 RL02 disk controller >> 1 M7957 DZV11-J controller >> >> 2 RL02 disk drives >> 15 RL02 disk packs (10Mb each) >> 1 bus extension card (pushes the card outside the cabinet) >> >>* Other hardware >> >> 1 RX02 dual 8" disk drive with controller card >> >> 2 4x9 slot card cages, one 18-bit bus, one 22-bit. Both have >> heavy duty power supplies, fans, power/reset/halt switches. >> >> 1 4'x19" DEC rack >> 1 single height blank panel >> 4 sets of sliders >> >> The rack holds 6 single height modules: the CPUs' card cages >> are all single height, the disks are all double height. The rack >> comes with a filtered, remote-switched power distribution panel. >> >> National Semi Q-bus 22-bit, 512KB memory bought at TCF in 1990 or so. >> >>* Books/software: >> >> Old RT-11 (Version 4.1?) distribution on RL02 and RX02 media >> Includes all kernel sources and macro assembler. >> >> Fortran, basic, DIBOL (DEC COBOL) and a few other things >> >> Complete RT-11 manual set (3 feet of binders) plus assorted PDP >> data books and other stuff >> >> Complete schematics for an 11/23+ (this is the field set). >> >> BSD2.9 manuals >> >> My docs are all 1983/1984 vintage, which is fine for the boards I >> have, but they don't document newer Q-bus stuff. >> >>==== >>>> I am asking $199 or BEST OFFER for the package. <<<< >> >>It all must go as a LOT -- no piecemeal sales. >> >>You'll need a full-size pickup truck, a industrial-grade hand-truck >>and two strong bodies (hopefully not including mine). >> >>I would like to get this equipment to someone who will *use it*, as >>opposed to someone who wants one board or manual and will put the >>remainder in a dumpster. The buyer should at least *properly recycle >>the equipment* that is not needed. >> >>Most of it was working when obtained. I saw the 11/23 system booted >>and running off the RL02s, under RT-11 (in 1991). The 19" rack has >>been sitting crated since that time (without any computer equipment >>inside) in the damp basement of my house -- I have no idea of its >>current condition. Everything else is upstairs, in the way... >> >>I'm located in Durham, North Carolina, very close to I-85 (2.5 hours >>to Richmond VA, 4+ hours to D.C., 9 hours to NYC by car). >> >>EMAIL: biggers(a)_no_spam_saiph.com >> (remove the anti-spam to reply, thanks!) >> >>or CALL 919-286-1441 >> >>----mark -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW.

28 years, 2 months

1
0
0 0

ok, end of OT, but thanks!

by homeline＠ezl.com

>No, they don't. The Nagant (7.62x 64) has a groove diameter of .310" and >uses a .311"-.312" size bullet. > >whoa, didn't know about the Nagant, better check the book next time. >Friend has an old WW I surplus one, I think he's reloading the wrong >size. It uses the .303 Brit instead? > > One last comment on this side discussion: It's nice to see that there are still many folks that enjoy and participate in a hobby that involves firearms. And not afraid to let it be known, especially with all of the negative stories in the news lately (like the last decade or so)! Remember, always think saftey first! Enjoy, Cliff Boyer

28 years, 2 months

4
3
0 0

9 TRK Drives, Oz, Driving

by jfedorko＠virtualadmin.com

John, The state surplus office down the road gets them from time to time... would shipping from MD be a problem? If not... I'll try to keep my eyes open for you. -----Original Message----- From: John Lawson [SMTP:jpl15@netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 12:28 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: 9 TRK Drives, Oz, Driving Hello List::::: I am looking for one or two 'real' DEC 9 trk tape drives w/formatter cards, in the SoCal area... TU16 and the like, and one of the small 7" reel jobs whose model number escapes me just now. I am willing to pay moderate sums for known-good-working units. Also looking for a *complete* 11/750 system... (computer, drives, tape unit, console, docs[ha!], etc.). I have a very old 11/15 to sell/trade, and several Plessey clone devices, including two CDC Caelus drives w/interface cards and engineering docs.... I can deliver in the General SoCal area. Note to Down Under Listmembers: I will be travelling to Sydney on the 2nd of July, and then caravanning to Adelaide over the space of about 10 days. It would be cool to meet some of my fellow collectors while I'm in your quadrant of the globe. E-mail me privately if there's any interest.... esp. Huw Davies, it would be fun to thank you in person for the help with my RK05 odyssey... ;} Driving: The farthest I've gone to 'rescue' PDP stuff was Los Angeles to Seattle and back in three days... 2200 miles. It was truly fun to be out on the Road away from work, phones, e-mail, faxes, memos, interruptions... thanks again to Bruce Lane for providing the excuse.. :o Oh, yeah... anyone have a Kennedy 9300 cheap/trade/free? I need some Parts...... Cheers John

28 years, 2 months

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Time for the FAQ

by dastar＠wco.com

I'm not making a statement or anything by posting the FAQ. It's just been a while so its time for the recent newbies to the list to get a dose of it. ============================================================================= DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.3 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothell washington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart1.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: Nothing new, cosmetic changes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Mailing Lists ---------------- 1.1 Mailing List Basics 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot How to set to Digest How to Subscribe How to Unsubscribe 2. FTP ------ 2.1 FTP Basics 3. World Wide Web ----------------- 3.1 WWW Basics ============================================================================= 1.1 Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc(a)u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 FTP Basics FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet. You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually termed PUT. Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.188. You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked for a password enter your internet e-mail address. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 WWW Basics The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it. The ClassicCmp site is http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp. ============================================================================= ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 2 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy List Specific FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.3 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 2 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regular day-to-day issues on the list. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothell washington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart2.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: Added: section 1.8 Changed: section 1.3, 1.5, 1.7, 3.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? 1.6 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? 1.8 How long has this list been around? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!? 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? 2.10 Can I use obscene languagein my posts? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 3.3 Is this list archived? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site? Collecting ---------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! ============================================================================= 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail ;) 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? _Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. This definition has come under fire recently but remains the guideline. Remember that it is certainly flexible. The idea is to keep conversation on track, not to restrict what you can talk about. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu. 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get back to you eventually. As an update, I've been _really_ hard to reach for the last couple months. Hopefully, this has now changed. Please keep in mind that this list is recreation for me, and I sometimes cannot devote any time to it. This does not indicate a lack of interest in the people or activities involved. 1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? The daily load varies widely from about 20 messages to over 100. Average seems to be about (I haven't checked lately, will update) messages a day. There are times where the message load peaks for as much as a week. 1.8 How long has this list been around? The first message went out March 13, 1997. [][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before posting. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there are members of this list in a number of different countries. If your post is commercial, please be sure to indicate that in some way in the subject line. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to find yourself a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? Some people like to read other peoples' trophy lists, some do not. There have been times when most people have been interested in these and times when many wanted to see them banned. So, they remain - appreciated or tolerated and somewhat controversial. Can't make everyone happy all the time ;) 2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts? Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 210 and changing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows the number of machines registered by subscribers. 3.3 Is this list archived? Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large. [][][][][][][][][][] 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site? Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers if needed. [][][][][][][][][][] 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your SO of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! Don't worry - you're not the only one. Reading this list, old magazines, books and whatever else you can get your hands on is the first step. Once you reach a critical mass of knowledge thigs get a lot easier. ============================================================================= ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 3 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Technical FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.2 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 3 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regularly asked questions which are technical in nature. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothell washington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart3.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: Nothing new, cosmetic changes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. General ------------------ 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 2. Media -------- 2.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 2.4 What disk sizes are there? 2.5 How do I take care of old media? 3. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 3.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 3.3 How about capacitors? 3.4 Anything else? 3.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? 4. Software ----------- 4.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 4.2 What's the best way to back up my software? 5. Specific Problems/Solutions ------------------------------ 5.1 Is it possible to bypass an RF modulator to achieve composite output? ============================================================================= 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, cold (broken) solder joints, bent pins, etc. It may be a good idea to remove and re-seat all socketed components and connectors. If anything burned or overheated it will probably pay to replace it before powering up the unit. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. If you have really cool tools (like a logic analyzer) it has been suggested that you use them to record critical information from those oh-so-hard-to-find custom chips. Specific information on how to do this is beyond the scope of a FAQ, but you probably know what you need to if you own the appropriate tools. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Running the power supply without a load could result in damage to it. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Recommended commercial products: Purple Stuff from Kragen [for discoloration] Brasso [ink/marker] (can discolor plastic) Antistatic Foam Cleaner from Electrolube [for discoloration/markings] Citra-Solv [for discoloration] (can dissolve plastic if undiluted) Cameo Copper Cleaner [ink/marker] Naptha [for stickers/goop/spooge] (very flammable) 3M GP Adhesive Remover [for stickers/goop/spooge] CRC 226 / CRC 556 [for stickers/goop/spooge] Fulcron [for discoloration] Blue Shower / BS II [for stickers/goop/spooge] Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Recommended commercial products: Electrolube contact cleaning sprays. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. If there is reason not to use a dishwasher (some key labels can come off) it is usually possible to remove each keycap and clean conventionally. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. 3.5 inch disks never came hard-sectored and, in fact, it would not be possible. 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density DD, HD (sometimes work, not advisable!) High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. In the case of quad density no substitution should be considered reliable. DD and HD disks both can be forced to work. One may work better than the other given the peculiarities of various drives. 2.4 What disk sizes are there? Disk Types? Physically? Standard Disks Unique/Proprietary Disks --------------------------------------------------------- 8" (Floppy) 5" (MiniFloppy) 5.25" (MiniFloppy) 3.25" (MicroFloppy) 3.5" (MicroFloppy) 3" (MicroFloppy) 2.5" 2" In addition to odd sizes - there is at least one type of disk which was physically different. "Twiggy" disks for the Apple Lisa 1 were regular 5.25" disks with the exception that they had two read/write windows. One was oriented "north" of the center hole, the other "south". 2.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 3.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 3.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 3.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 3.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows).

28 years, 2 months

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Old Microsoft stuff...

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

>First off your dates are grossly in error. MS in the persona of Gates >was involved in putting basic on the altair via MITS. When CP/M was >gaining ground as the dominent 8080/z80 OS microsoft was the dominent >language supplier. The majik system was a z80 running cp/m and MSbasic >compiler, MAC and L80, and maybe Multiplan. Yep. I know that. But MS dominance didn't exactly happen overnight. They didn't have much of a hold in anything until the IBM PC took off... >Apple: Apple softcard combind package of CP/M and MS languges and a z80. >TRS80: Disk basic. >PDP-11: Didn't MS do a unix varient? >UNix... they did have a hand in a PC unix and apps for it. You mean Xenix? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze

28 years, 2 months

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Old Microsoft stuff...

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Roger Ivie <IVIE(a)cc.usu.edu> wrote: > Eunice wasn't a DEC product, though. It was done by the folks who > eventually became The Wollongong Group. Um, no. It was developed at SRI, I think by David Kashtan who was later one of the founders of TGV. Wollongong sold it, and supported it, but I wasn't involved in it except as an occasional user so don't have much to say. -Frank McConnell

28 years, 2 months

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Collectable Old Microsoft Stuff

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Here's some old Microsoft hardware that's worth collecting: - MacEnhancer (a port expander for the Mac 128/512) - Mach 10 (V20 accelerator for IBM PCs) - Mach 20 (286 accelerator for IBM PCs, with daughtercard options) - Mouse v1.0 - PC Jr. Booster - Premium Softcard IIe - Ramcard - Softcard (Z80 card for the Apple II) - Systemcard (Like an AST Six-Pack, for the IBM PC) And collectable software: - Adventure (a.k.a. Colossal Cave, versions for TRS80, IBM, & Apple) - Beethoven v1.0 (the first mass market multimedia CD-ROM) - Bob (hey, if you own a Lisa or a PC jr. you need their software equivalent!) - Flight Simulator v1.0 - Windows 1.03 Kai

28 years, 2 months

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PDP model line / rarity?

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> The 8's are also pretty common. I believe they're one of the most >> common mini's ever built along with the 11. hmm. My university had a 7 which as far as I know was never used - it just sat there as a conversational point in one of the physics labs. I probably could have taken it, but just don't have the room for it (nor the knowledge to keep it running, and I don't have the time these days to learn about any new machines sadly!) Don't think I've ever seen any other PDP's aside from that 7 - either running or non-running. >>> Sorry for the dumb question - I grew up with classic 8-bit micros and >>> 32-bit Unix machines - shame I missed out on some of the big old boxes, >>> they sound like fun (if a bit impractical from a storage point of view!! >>> :) >> >> They were a LOT more fun than your average WINTEL box. hey, wintel machines are great fun - at least in the sense that they're amusing due to the terrible hardware and software that's a complete joke :) Jules

28 years, 2 months

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