At 11:36 PM 6/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Ok Atari-heads, what the hell is an SLMC804 Laser? It looks like some
>sort of SCSI adapter. Its an external device the size of an external
>modem.
The SLM804 Laser Printer was Tramiel's attempt at a laser-for-the-masses
back when a Laser Printer was a multi-thousand-dollar item. It had no
on-board intelligence or memory; it used the ST's CPU/RAM. Sounds like
what you have there is the controller interface. (Plugs into the ACSI port
on one end and the printer on the other.)
P.S., anyone want an SLM804 in need of some repair?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
> Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers
> are in any sense being preserved properly. I would doubt
> if ROMs were ever backed up or PSUs tested.
Hmm, IMSAI's didn't have ROMs (or PALs and FPGAs, programmable logic had
yet to be invented), unless you added them in yourself. As for checking
the power supply, an IMSAI was extremely easy to eyeball...huge
transformer, diodes, and beer can size capacitors. One problem I never
had with IMSAIs was in the power supply, the design was right out of
Electronics 101, nothing beats a big lump of iron for simplicity. Now
rust might be a problem...
Actually, the only real problem I've ever found with S-100s is the bus
connectors wearing out. I have an old Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1 in need
of a replacement Morrow motherboard. Well, not really in a hurry to fix
it, all the Ithaca boards have been in the IMSAI for the last 10 years,
but I hate to throw out the DPS-1 since it had the neat front panel with
the PDP style toggle switches.
Jack Peacock
<VMS 5.5-2 installation. I really don't know about the resistor board,
<though -- I'm afraid I've never seen one.
It's there to load the switcher, a disk will do that too!
Allison
< A uVAX 2000 uses MFM drives, either a
<Microplis 1325/DEC RD53 (70MB) or a Maxtor 2190/DEC RD54 (159MB). In
<order to load VMS you really need the RD54, 70MB is too small. The HD
You can load v5.4 on to a RD53 if DECwindows is tailored off. You get
about 20k blocks that way. A RD54 is better though.
I have three of them, nice uVAX two running VMS (rd53), one Netboots off
the 3100m76. The third has ultrix V4.2 in rd53(70mb).
Allison
<Next question? WFERE is 'local'??
I keep forgetting that no matter how often I've posted my location it's
never read... Eastern MA about 25 west if boston.
Allison
How nice: Both of the video cards I got are toast.
One acts completely dead, the other shows a series of red vertical bars
about .25" apart, with crap in between.
Apparently, these were decommissioned for a reason...
-------
> This one is a Model 625NT-AA, and comes without harddisk. It appears
that there is a resistor board installed to provide a load comparable to
the drive on the power supply. According to a rather sketchy spec sheet
that I d/l'd from DEC, it can handle a maximum 318mb local disk. Based
on the 53C80 chip installed, I presume that the drive should be SCSI. >
Not exactly, the SCSI port is only for a tape drive, a TK50Z (an early
ancestor to modern DLT drives). A uVAX 2000 uses MFM drives, either a
Microplis 1325/DEC RD53 (70MB) or a Maxtor 2190/DEC RD54 (159MB). In
order to load VMS you really need the RD54, 70MB is too small. The HD
controller is the 40 pin SMC chip on the motherboard. Oddball MFM
format, not compatible with WD HDCs, but the 2000 has a formatter in the
ROM. The 318MB figure comes from using two RD54 drives (159 each).
> At the rear of the machine are three sub-D connectors, one each
25-pin, 15-pin, and 9-pin. What are their functions? The 15 and 9 are
presently encumbered by a plugin box that has three RJ45(?) connectors.
Network link? >
The 25 pin is the TTA2 port, RS423 (close to RS232) with full modem
support (sort of). The 9 pin is TTA3:, another RS423 serial port for a
local printer or terminal, but not wiored like a PC 9 pin serial. The
15 pin is for a workstation cable and carries the video (the coax
connector on the little box), plus a keyboard and mouse connector (TTA0:
and TTA1: serial ports). They are not RJ45s. You should also have a
BNC coax connector for 10Base5 thinwire ethernet.
For more info check the comp.os.vms and comp.sys.dec newsgroups, they
have lots of FAQs for uVAX 2000s. I don't know the URLs but if you post
a question on one of the ngs they will direct you to the web page.
BTW, I might have an expansion memory board left for a uvax 2000, i'll
check the old DEC scrap box. IIRC it brings one up to either 8 or 14MB
of RAM. (a uVAX II maxes out at 16MB of RAM)
Jack Peacock
More fun stuff picked up this weekend:
Canon Cat - A glorified word processor that was created by one of the original
members of the Macintosh team.
Mentor Graphics badged Apollo DN300 workstation.
Whole box of Apple II cards and other misc stuff.
Anyone have any info the the Canon Cat? Or manuals/software for the Apollo?
Oh, I also have a couple of AT&T 6300 cpu's that I'll give to anyone who wants
them (don't know if they work, don't have time to check them out). I also have
a AT&T 3B2-310 with external expansion unit (XM something or other) for sale
or trade, make me an offer I can't refuse :) BTW I'm in Austin, TX.
George
I recently acquired a laptop that appears to be an NEC PC-8201 with a label
of a company named Intelus on the front where the PC-8201 label would be.
There is also a serial number label on the back that lists the address of
Intelus as in Rockville, Maryland. In addition, it has a miniature
connector labeled phone on the back in place of the second SIO connector
(maybe the unit has an internal modem? I haven't opened it up to check),
and it has an additional small removable panel on the back that provides
access to an edge-card connector on the motherboard. My machine has
nothing plugged into this connector. The machine fires up showing BASIC,
TELCOM, and TEXT programs in ROM, and the BASIC program even says PC-8201
Basic, verson 1.1. The machine is in all other respects (keyboard,
display, battery pack, ROM access, and external connectors) identical to my
PC-8201. Is anyone familiar with this machine?
At 08:01 PM 6/18/98 +1, you wrote:
>Robotron ?
>
>Talking about the East German Computers ?
Robotron is also a video game ca. 1981-2 (Williams, iirc) that was
semi-unique in that it used dual joysticks -- one to control movement and
one to control firing direction -- and in order to be at all successful at
the game one had to be able to operate the two completely independantly of
each other. Other, similar games included Sinistar (no relation, and don't
even go there) and one whose name I forgot that had to do with spiders and
webs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 07:56 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I've got a Joust I might let go for something tasty. It's the same
>system board, you only need to swap the ROMs and re-work the control
>panel ;)
ROM's might be possible, but a Robotron game gets a lot of heavy-duty
usage; I don't think I could trust any mods I would make to the controls. 8^(
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>>Yes, but Pascal was born in 1623 so Schickard's device most likely beats
>>whatever Pascal developed in his lifetime (I think he was 18 when he
>>invented it).
>
> Late-comers, all of them. My vote for the earliest computer is the
> Antikythera Device, a bronze mechanical lunar month calculator built in
> Greece about 80AD.
>
> Shickard's "Calculating Clock" was the next mechanical calculator of record
> in 1623, followed by Blaise Pascal's "Pascaline" in 1642, Samuel Morland's
> mechanical calculator in 1666, Gottfried Leibnez' "Stepped Reckoner" in
> 1674, Phillip-Malthus Hahn's calculating machines (the first sold
> commercially) in 1774, and the third Earl of Stanhope's multiplying
> calculator in 1777. The first mass-produced calculating machine was Thomas
> de Colmar's "Arithmometer" in 1820.
Good point. Many early clocks were (or contained) primitive analogue
computers, so I think you win there... sort of.
Two books to look at: "The Mediaeval Machine" by J. Gimpel and "A
History of Engineering in Classical and Mediaeval Times" by D. R. Hill.
Gimpel will fill several holes in your timeline - Su Sung made quite a
complicated astronomical clock in c. 1090; the middle ages saw a
sizeable crop of similar machines in the west, culminating in that of
Giovanni Dondi, under development from 1348 until 1364.
Hill's treatment of clocks is also interesting. He points out that the
Classical civilisations had (presumably inherited from the ancients) a
system by which the hour changed in length depending on the date so that
sunrise to sunset was always twelve hours. Thus ordinary timekeeping
clocks had to combine time and date in an analogue computer to get
hour-number out at the end. Some of the mechanisms Hill describes get
this quite wrong! (I don't recall any of these clocks also taking
account of lattitude...)
OK. I'll go for the Z1 as the first _general purpose_ computer.
Philip.
Ok Atari-heads, what the hell is an SLMC804 Laser? It looks like some
sort of SCSI adapter. Its an external device the size of an external
modem.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 06/11/98]
I'm sorry for cluttering up the list, but our
email system strips off the senders address!
John, if you get this message, Please respond via
private E-Mail.
Thanks!
- Jeff
We now return you to our regualrly scheduled programme . . .
Hi Bruce,
I had most of your problems on a ra90 ...
----------
> From: Bruce Lane <kyrrin(a)jps.net>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Help! RA82, etc.
> Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 9:40 PM
> OK... I've got a MicroVAX II almost ready to go. However, I'm
handicapped
> by my lack of any documentation for the RA82 disk drive.
sure you are ;-))
> The problem: When spun up, even when connected to the KDA50 controller,
> the drive gets up to speed, seeks a couple of times, and then lights
'Fault.'
>
> My question: Do I even have the thing wired right? Could someone
familiar
> with this stuff describe to me which cable goes where, just to make sure
> I'm not hallucinating?
at least, if you are really sure, you made the right connections, test &
check it again. the sdi cables are very picky, if you "made" a connection,
be sure to fasten the screws also. sometimes it doesn't work without fasten
it.
> The controller seems OK. It passes its internal and service diagnostics,
> and when I stare at the LEDs on the two boards long enough I can see some
> sort of fast scanning sequence going on about every 5-7 seconds.
one more shot in the dark ;-))
the ra81 & ra82 have in diagnostic port on the disks. you can get more
information about the disks, if you put a terminal at it. But don't ask, i
never done it, (i got my disks to run without it) try DejaNews.
hope it helps a little,
emanuel
> Ok Atari-heads, what the hell is an SLMC804 Laser? It looks like some
> sort of SCSI adapter. Its an external device the size of an external
> modem.
One of the 'Power without the Price' products from ATARI.
basicly a 300 dpi Laser unit with only minimal control
logic (only a bit map buffer for one (?) line of graphic.
Connection to the ST computers where made via the ACSI port -
ATARIs castarated version of SCSI used for the ST Harddisk.
The whole font and page processing had to be done by the
host computer - but the Printer was availabel for less than
2000 Mark (~1300 USD) when new - only haf the price of the
cheapest 'regular' laser printer.
Servus
Hans
PS.: 20c for THE hair (but only if a nice poly acryl
display case is included).
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
>> Conner CP-3044 3.5" 40mb (42mb actual?) IDE hard drive
rats, I had a whole heap of these a while ago but disposed of them all -
they seem extremely unreliable and kept on dying on me, so I dumped the
lot...
I don't know if it's true of all IDE drives, but you may be able to use
a different drive; you just won't get more than the 40MB out of it...
cheers
J.
email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Max Eskin <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 4:20
Subject: Re: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)
they where used in school in the states, the where called I think "bell &
Howards"
they also came with the lid screwed down..........to stop the little ones
touching the "shiny" bits inside..........
>
>
>
>
>Well, I've never seen one. Then again, I've never seen your ass.
>Why were they black? Was it a special edition? Were the beige ones
>or the black ones first?
>>
>>> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete
>>> Computer helpline:
>>>
>>>
>>> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.>
>>> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02
>>>
>>> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT
>>> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576
>>
>>Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass.
>>
>>Sam Alternate e-mail:
>dastar(a)wco.com
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>>
>> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2!
>> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details
>> [Last web page update: 06/18/98]
>>
>>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
At 10:13 AM 6/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>After a round of email bidding, the seller sez:
>>Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff
>>directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online
I seem to remember that eBay offers private auctions -- you put something
up for bid and just tell the people you want about it. That sort of thing
might facilitate auctioning things off to list members.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Sorry for the personal message... I told Pine *not* to reply to
the Group, but...
BAD Pine! BAD! BAD!
Sorry again.... I will wear a Luser hat and sit in the corner for
an hour trying to find a missing comma in the middle of a 6 Mb hex
core-dump.
Cheers
John
Hello List:::::
I am looking for one or two 'real' DEC 9 trk tape drives
w/formatter cards, in the SoCal area... TU16 and the like, and one
of the small 7" reel jobs whose model number escapes me just now. I
am willing to pay moderate sums for known-good-working units.
Also looking for a *complete* 11/750 system... (computer, drives,
tape unit, console, docs[ha!], etc.).
I have a very old 11/15 to sell/trade, and several Plessey clone
devices, including two CDC Caelus drives w/interface cards and
engineering docs.... I can deliver in the General SoCal area.
Note to Down Under Listmembers: I will be travelling to Sydney on
the 2nd of July, and then caravanning to Adelaide over the space of
about 10 days. It would be cool to meet some of my fellow collectors
while I'm in your quadrant of the globe. E-mail me privately if
there's any interest.... esp. Huw Davies, it would be fun to thank
you in person for the help with my RK05 odyssey... ;}
Driving: The farthest I've gone to 'rescue' PDP stuff was Los
Angeles to Seattle and back in three days... 2200 miles. It was
truly fun to be out on the Road away from work, phones, e-mail,
faxes, memos, interruptions... thanks again to Bruce Lane for
providing the excuse.. :o
Oh, yeah... anyone have a Kennedy 9300 cheap/trade/free? I need
some Parts......
Cheers
John
>I personally think that $50 is max for any desktop computer over 10
>years old, with some exceptions like Lisas and Apple Is. Anyway, some
>guy at the MIT flea today had a whole stack of them. What are they?
Those are the ones I saw as well... he was asking $25 for a broken
one (but cosmetically pretty good) and $100 for the working ones.
If I remember correctly, they are essentially a BASIC computer with
printer and something similar to a TU58 drive.
It's just that I remember using one at WPI when I was there in the
70's and wanted to get one for my collection...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation | |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
OK... I've got a MicroVAX II almost ready to go. However, I'm handicapped
by my lack of any documentation for the RA82 disk drive.
The problem: When spun up, even when connected to the KDA50 controller,
the drive gets up to speed, seeks a couple of times, and then lights 'Fault.'
I'll press the 'Fault' button to try and reset. On the first press,
'Run/Stop' and 'Write Protect' flash. On the second press, it goes through
its seek-and-fault cycle again.
My question: Do I even have the thing wired right? Could someone familiar
with this stuff describe to me which cable goes where, just to make sure
I'm not hallucinating?
The controller seems OK. It passes its internal and service diagnostics,
and when I stare at the LEDs on the two boards long enough I can see some
sort of fast scanning sequence going on about every 5-7 seconds.
I can, if need be, open up the RA82 and see which internal LEDs come up.
Any and all help appreciated. Thanks in advance.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
What a surprising day, went to the Stockton Delta College Flea Market (in
California) and found a couple goodies...
First I bought an SX-64 keyboard and C-128 in the $1.00 section of someones
space. I bought the SX keyboard cause I have a second (dead) SX without one
the 128 was because I felt sorry for them having to break a 20 (also I figured
if it was dead I could use its keyboard with that keyboardless 128D I have).
After wandering a bit my wife shows up with a keyboardless SX-64 also from the
same booth's dollar section, what a wonderful woman! (I must've missed that
SX, better have my eyes checked!).
Anyway $3.00 spent and get home to discover the 128 works (missing the F3
key) and the SX has some issues but seems functional (does not boot to BASIC,
just a black screen, but does run carts ok, probably bad BASIC/KERNEL ROMs
also keyboard connector/curcuitry needs work too.)
So far I have bought 3 128s (real cheap) with the plan to use the (supposed
dead 128's) keyboard on the D to discover it was not even a dead machine after
all. Well Sam, (who finds many a dead Commodore 8-bit) I guess Commodore
spirits aren't with you. :)
Almost was tempted to buy a few of someone else's Mac problems (nice seller,
he told the truth on all of em), but I figured I'd play it smart (this time).
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363
Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at:
http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
I personally think that $50 is max for any desktop computer over 10
years old, with some exceptions like Lisas and Apple Is. Anyway, some
guy at the MIT flea today had a whole stack of them. What are they?
>
>I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for
>an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price.
>
> Megan Gentry
> Former RT-11 Developer
>
>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
>| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com
|
>| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com
|
>| Digital Equipment Corporation |
|
>| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/
|
>| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler
|
>| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg
|
>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
<So what you're saying is that my dream of a steam-driven computer isn't t
<ravings of a madman after all...
Humm... steam driven logic... sequential, genius locomotive.
Ah, err, been done. ;)
Allison
I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for
an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation | |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
<that relay) in your logic. If you took an electronic logic circuit and
<replaced the gates with relays, the result would be very slow. But if you
<implemented the same logic with relays and redesigned it, the result
<would be possibly useable.
Logic design with realys have different implmentations as a bistable with
gates can be one relay. Stepping relays are inherent counters and can be
made to count to any amount.
I've used realy logic for machine control, operating speed 2 to 5 sec per
interation so fast was not a required thing. Doing sequential work using
relays and switches is really fun. Of course all that drove air valves
so there was air logic too. ;) Oh, and you can do logic with air valves,
air one shots, even flipflops.
Well, I've never seen one. Then again, I've never seen your ass.
Why were they black? Was it a special edition? Were the beige ones
or the black ones first?
>
>> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete
>> Computer helpline:
>>
>>
>> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.>
>> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02
>>
>> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT
>> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576
>
>Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass.
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)wco.com
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2!
> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details
> [Last web page update: 06/18/98]
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
So how much do you want for my two gallons of distilled enjoyment :)
>Others might disagree with my definition of "worth", but if you think
>you'll get more than $100 of enjoyment out of the setup, then I'd say
>it's worth it.
>
>With all the discussions lately about auctions and pricing, I think
>folks are losing sight that collecting classic computers is something
>that we do for fun, not as an investment! Personally, I get far more
>delight from restoring and using the machines than I do from bragging
>about what I own.
>
>Tim.
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
My visit to the MIT Flea today was unproductive. But, so it wouldn't
be wasted, I grabbed a Sun 3/50 for $1. It seems to work, and is in
good condition. I looked at the board, it has a 68020. Can someone
tell me more? Also, how do I hook it up to a terminal? Which pins do
I need? I plugged my Mac in, but it didn't show anything. My Mac
serial cable only has pins 2,3,6,7,8, and 21.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Megan -
> I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for
> an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price.
I'd have to say probably not. I have a pair of HP-85s that I snagged in the
last 18 months. One cost me $1.00
at a private school flea market and the other cost $12.50 at an auction run
by Goodwill. The system from Goodwill
included an HP padded travel case -- in fact, the system was originally
stacked with some luggage and had not been
bought during that portion of the auction. I found out after I pointed the
system out to the auctioneer and bought it when
they auctioned off the rest of the computer stuff (usually C64s, Atari, and
the occasional Apple IIc or Mac Plus) that I
could have simple asked for a "no bid" sale for the last bid price in the
luggage area and gotten the system for $3.50.
-- Tony Eros
NSIS - ENS/Internet
Wilmington, DE
-----Original Message-----
From: mbg(a)world.std.com [SMTP:mbg@world.std.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 1998 1:35 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: HP 85
I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for
an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work):
gentry(a)zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home):
mbg(a)world.std.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation |
|
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL:
http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some
assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg
|
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
So how much do you sell you hair for? ;)
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
-----Original Message-----
From: Vintage Computer Festival <siconic(a)jasmine.psyber.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)
>On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Desie Hay wrote:
>
>> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete
>> Computer helpline:
>>
>>
>> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.>
>> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02
>>
>> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT
>> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576
>
>Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass.
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)wco.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2!
> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details
> [Last web page update: 06/18/98]
>
>>What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more
>>often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in
>>the last month)
>>Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with
>>a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I
>>find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide
>>shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has
>>received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as
>>an opportunity for further response.
Although I've participated in "auctions" of this type, I haven't gotten
shanked by another bidder. I can see how easy the private auction process
can be abused. I sometimes find myself doubtful of the bid increments that
I've seen; too easy to fake interest to inflate the price.
>>BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!)
I always wanted one of these when I was a kid. Wasn't it about $2k new?
Unbelievable. Classic computers and robots, the next Beanie Babies!
>>-jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...)
Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com>
- ClubWin! Charter Member
- MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
- Preserver of "classic" computers
<<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>>
Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port?
Apple - A/UX
IBM - AIX
MS - Xenix
AT&T - UNIX
DEC?
DR?
>
>You mean Xenix?
> Ciao,
>
>Tim D. Hotze
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Excuse the interruption, but if you've been using dastar(a)wco.com to send
me e-mail then please note I have a new e-mail address:
dastar(a)verio.com
You can also always reach me at
sam(a)siconic.com
which will probably never change.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 06/11/98]
-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Franke <franke(a)sbs.de>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 6:30
Subject: Re: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)
>> I agree with you completely...however evil ebay may be, at least it is a
>> structured enviornment with rules and etiquette that is regulated.
>
>Agreed
>
>> I am of the opinion that some of these characters are scrounging around
>> ebay and newsgroups soliciting bidders just to get out of paying the
>> commission...then they invent these rediculous auction scenarios. I think
>> there should be some sort of formal boycott.
>
>I still like sBay an similar systems. At least they secure the
>process a bit - like in an ordinary auction. And auctions are,
>for shure, no place for rare or most wanted items. Not VL and
>not RL. But they are a good thing to get fair prices for some
>unusual or common things. I bought some rare spare parts via
>eBay for just cents (and a brand new never opened never used
>complete Mac IIsi for less than 100 USD :). But the best hits
>are always on ordinary swap markets (flea markets) (like today
>*g*) - even electronic swaps tend to have high prices.
>
>Gruss
>H.
>
>--
>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>HRK
>
email: desieh(a)southcom.com.au
desieh(a)bigfoot.com
museum_curator(a)hotmail.com
Apple Lisa Web Page:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm
its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete
Computer helpline:
Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.>
seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02
FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT
ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)servtech.com> wrote:
] Hey gang!
]
] Several times during the past week or ten days I've tried to connect to the
] ClassicCmp website http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp but
] never seemed to be up. Always got a message after Netscape timed out
] suggesting the web server is either down or not responding. Anybody know
] what's happening?
That's been dead for nearly as long as I've been here, about a year.
And there's also that rescue-list put up by Isaac Davis, that also has
been non-maintained for as long.
My suggestion to everybody is to put up your own classiccmp page, and
make sure you include the words "classic computer" so it can be found
easily through the search engines. Or, if you are volunteering to
rescue old machines, include the words "classic computer rescue squad",
and include your interests, geographical area, and contact info.
At one point, I was extremely tempted to put up some "official" web
pages to take over for those dead pages. But then I thought about it:
both of the other two who did this have vanished without a trace.
Maybe I don't want to follow too closely in their footsteps. :-)
Bill.
] Thanks,
] --Chris
] -- --
] Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
] Jamestown, NY USA
] Member of Antique Wireless Association
] URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Chris Halarewich <chrish(a)knet.kootenay.net> wrote:
] I was looking around at http://www.patents.ibm.com
]
] I discovered that Commodore Electronics held the
] patent for the case of the TRS-80 CoCo2(3?), which makes me wonder if
] they designed the rest of the computer for Radio Shack.
]
] Any Edgeumacated guesses anyone...anyone :)
]
] Chris Halarewich
The data sheet for the Motorola 6883 Synchronous Address Multiplexor,
which is the key wonder-chip in the CoCo 1 and 2, includes a schematic
that accounts for about 80% of the CoCo design. The 6883 and 6847 were
clearly designed to be used together, and the rest of the design was
pretty much driven by that. Of course, the CoCo does have a little
stuff hanging off of the two PIA's that isn't given in that data sheet.
But I'd be surprised if they had gone to Commodore for that.
Of course, I'm surprised enough at the patent on the case (who would
need to infringe a patent to make a rectanguloid plastic box?!), so I
guess the origin of the remainder of the circuit design could surprise
me too...
Bill.
Here are some of this week's finds:
1. 3-Apple Monochrome monitors IIe
2. 8-Apple 5.25 FD
3. 8-Giltronic Selecto-switch for Apple's
4. UltraDrive 45 for Mac with all cables and terminator
5. Apple duodisk A9M0108
6. 2-Apple IIe's
7. RCA Data Terminal model UP4801 similar to C64 a all in the keyboard unit
even has a Acousic coupler conection and a RJ11 phone jack built in.
8. AMPI printer model 88
9. 2-Apple IIgs one is the WOZ limited edition model.
10. A Data General/One model 2 I already had a model 1, this unit came with
the power supply.
11. EPSON PX-8 model H101A notebook computer has builtin micro cassette
unit missing power supply but can run on batteries.
12. Digicard shared resource expansion unit and a contoller unit for apples.
13. Corvus OmniDrive model 45MB
14. 4-Apple Color Monitor IIe
15. Box of cables all types (a large box)
16. 2-IBM RT tower units need work
17. Heathkit Microcomputer learning system model 3400 series ET-3400A
18. HP 32936A ROM Drawer
19. 3-Mac 128k kb's
20. Box VAX manuals
21. Some old HP test equipment catalogs
22. Color Classic Mac
23. AT&T Mono monitor for 6300
24. AT&T kb for 6300 KBD302
25. And many more items than can be listed here because of the 10 year rule.
It was good week for me and I hope you all have had some good fines. Keep
on Computing John
>> You just searched a phon directory ? Didn't you ? Or
>> who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ?
>> True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance.
>> Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite
>> good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display
>> is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer
>> displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_
>> unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build
>> some junk place.
> It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was there
> earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!!
I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is
there a Website to get the opening hours ?
> The digital computing collection seems to consist of the Pilot ACE (worth
> seeing, but it's _never_ in operation), the Babbage difference engine
> (again, well worth seeing), and a poor collection of random bits of more
> modern machines/peripherals.
Oh, thats also the best description for the 'modern' displays
in the Deutsches Museum: random bits. Especialy for the small
devices.
>> Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first
>> fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes -
>> they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete,
>> including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would
>> have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and
>> power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible,
>> but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old
>> tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone
>> will be here to tell the story.
> We've had this discussion here before. Museums are (IMHO) too interested
> in preserving the fabric of a device (which is important, but not the
> most important thing) rather than the operation. My guess is that in
> (say) 50 years time there will be machines in museums that are still in
> exactly the same condition as when they were taken out of service, but
> nobody knows how to get them running again, what they were really used
> for, or how to operate them. We (as in the majority of people on this
> list) are doing the opposite in general. We keep machines working, even
> if it means doing some non-original repairs (but we try to keep things as
> original as possible). I suspect our collections and those of museums
> will both be of value in the future, but for different reasons.
Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous
display in action, but even if it is just as static display,
this one time running test ist the best verification that the
static display is _complete_.
(In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum -
even back in time when it was new, every power up and down
had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since
the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible)
by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking)
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
> But then you're missing all the fun of watching the drum! That's the
> cool part about REALLY old machines. With them, one could still get
> his hands dirty in oil, as opposed to dust.
The drum was (is) capsuled. Nothing to wiew beside a big
old e-motor.
Gruss
H.
(hates exchange)
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Guys:
I am posting this message on the behalf of a third party.
PLease contact him directly.
For Sale:
IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer
This is the model with the switches on the front panel (non turnkey).
Inside:
Several memory boards
Original IMS CPU
Tarbell tape controller
MicroComplex Phase Lock II FDC (by Frank Hogg)
Video Adaptor/Keyboard Interface
Outside:
External Keyboard
Dual Cassette drives (they look pretty strange)
Dual 5.25 Floppy drives (non IMSAI)
There is 'A Ton' of software for this thing, and it's supposed to
run CP/M (I've seen the docs, but not the floppies). All of the
boards, software, etc. have the original docs. Alot of the software
is on cassette.
There are also a bunch of spare boards:
qty Make Model Whatizit?
--- ------------- --------------------- --------------
11 Micro Complex Phase Lock II FDC
1 North Star MDC-A2 MDC
1 Coex 64k Static RAM
1 Tanner 64k Static Ram
1 MITS 8800 CPU CPU Card
1 Solid State Music S-100 Video Interface
1 Morrow 8k RAM Module
1 WameCo EPM-2 EPROM Board
1 PolyMorphic Syst. A/D + D/A
2 Morrow/Godbout Econo-RAM 4k memory
1 STM 8k(?) RAM Board
1 Celetron Altair Board Extender
1 Vandenburg Data 16k Static Ram
The seller would favor selling the whole lot.
Asking price: $300
Contact:
Denys G. Fredrickson
denysgf(a)juno.com
>> At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did
>>>you guys carry around to start out with?
>>> I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as
>>>some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had
>>>been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette
>>>rewinds it, it is still readable.
>> First??? DECtape, 1 inch wide on the 4 inch reels from the PDP-8 in the
>> OMSI computer labs. On occasion 8 level paper tape from the teletypes that
>> we used to access a GE time-share system in Seattle.
> Well I guess this dates me, but , 80 column punch cards. Do
> not bend ,spindle or mutilate.
> The only benefit was when a few years later on my advertising
> distribution company was delivering a promo for a large supermarket
> firm that shall go unnamed, cards that had some prizes included.
> The cards were put thru an interpreter at the check-out counter
> and some were winning cards if you had the item mentioned in
> your basket. Since I could read the cards we pulled some of the
> better prizes and presented them at different stores.
> " Oh I won a Steak ? Thats great , I just happen to have one in
> my basket."
> We lived more dangerously in those days.
Nice - I could offer 9 hole paper tape over a (modified)
T100 Teletype on my Kim - before that I used paper and
pencile until the program was 'finished' and than an PROM
burner for archiving - superiour accestime :)
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
<Yes, relays are a lot slower than electronic devices, and yes, they may
<be less reliable. But they're not as slow as all that.
They are reliable, especially the sealed ones...saves extracting
bugs(moths) with tweezers(aka: Lt Hopper).
Speed; the problem is cascade. I've worked with relay trees of good size
and while each can do 10s of repetitions persecond tens of them in cascade
can only complete one cycle in a second. To do logic like a counter
using relays is slow even though the individual relays may be fairly
fast. Though using s stepper relay is faster than chained relays.
Allison
> I agree with you completely...however evil ebay may be, at least it is a
> structured enviornment with rules and etiquette that is regulated.
Agreed
> I am of the opinion that some of these characters are scrounging around
> ebay and newsgroups soliciting bidders just to get out of paying the
> commission...then they invent these rediculous auction scenarios. I think
> there should be some sort of formal boycott.
I still like sBay an similar systems. At least they secure the
process a bit - like in an ordinary auction. And auctions are,
for shure, no place for rare or most wanted items. Not VL and
not RL. But they are a good thing to get fair prices for some
unusual or common things. I bought some rare spare parts via
eBay for just cents (and a brand new never opened never used
complete Mac IIsi for less than 100 USD :). But the best hits
are always on ordinary swap markets (flea markets) (like today
*g*) - even electronic swaps tend to have high prices.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
> Allison J Parent wrote:
>><> Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels
>><> Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree.
>><> Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of
>>> diodes and neon filled tubes.
>><A good definition, I could agree, althrough I've seen
>><Electric and Electronic the same, since a relay isn't
>><diferent from a transistor or a tube for the effekt
>><(beside the current).
>> The distinction for the last two is significant from a design and speed
>> standpoint. the design process is very different at the detail level.
> Yah, with a relay-based system, a one-hertz clock speed would be
> setting a record.
Woooooosh - Your 'record' machine was just bypassed by
a 1941 Zuse build from junk telephone relais.
According to Zuse a multiplication took 3 seconds. A
Multiply nedded 16 Machine cycls and 16/3 equals to
5.33 Hz - just - 5 times faster - calculated on cycles,
but one cyle had 5 stages. Satge 1 to 3 where used for
execution, while 4 and 5 are used for load and fetch -
the operation fetch ocuresd simultaniously to the store.
So even this early had paralell working units (didn't
tried Intel to tell us that this was one of the big
inventions of the Pentium - you know the processor with
all the little rainbow coloured man inside instead of
the usual LGM)
Althrough the speed was something like 5 or 6 Hz, it
is legal to speak about a clock speed of 15 to 18 Hz
when comparing to newer machines.
And for relay speed itself - 40 to 100 (controlled)
switchings per second have been possible for pre war
relais and EMS relais (technique of the 60s) are able
to do up to 1500 Hz - we tried it 20 years back :)
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
But then you're missing all the fun of watching the drum! That's the
cool part about REALLY old machines. With them, one could still get
his hands dirty in oil, as opposed to dust.
>>> who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ?
>>> True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance.
>
>>> Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite
>>> good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display
>>> is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer
>>> displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_
>>> unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build
>>> some junk place.
>
>> It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was
there
>> earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!!
>
>I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is
>there a Website to get the opening hours ?
>
>> The digital computing collection seems to consist of the Pilot ACE
(worth
>> seeing, but it's _never_ in operation), the Babbage difference engine
>> (again, well worth seeing), and a poor collection of random bits of
more
>> modern machines/peripherals.
>
>Oh, thats also the best description for the 'modern' displays
>in the Deutsches Museum: random bits. Especialy for the small
>devices.
>
>>> Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first
>>> fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes -
>>> they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete,
>>> including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would
>>> have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and
>>> power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible,
>>> but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old
>>> tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone
>>> will be here to tell the story.
>
>> We've had this discussion here before. Museums are (IMHO) too
interested
>> in preserving the fabric of a device (which is important, but not the
>> most important thing) rather than the operation. My guess is that in
>> (say) 50 years time there will be machines in museums that are still
in
>> exactly the same condition as when they were taken out of service,
but
>> nobody knows how to get them running again, what they were really
used
>> for, or how to operate them. We (as in the majority of people on this
>> list) are doing the opposite in general. We keep machines working,
even
>> if it means doing some non-original repairs (but we try to keep
things as
>> original as possible). I suspect our collections and those of museums
>> will both be of value in the future, but for different reasons.
>
>Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous
>display in action, but even if it is just as static display,
>this one time running test ist the best verification that the
>static display is _complete_.
>
>(In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum -
>even back in time when it was new, every power up and down
>had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since
>the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible)
>by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking)
>
>Gruss
>H.
>
>--
>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>HRK
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Sorry about the white space, I'm using Lynx, as always...
I agree with that! I've taken two sets of disks for Mac System 7 from
a Mac Lab, and both had bad disks. OTOH, the 6.0.4 disks still work
fine, probably because of the lower density. Sometimes I wonder if
there's something wrong w/my drives, but they can read data written
by other drives...
>a month later. And yes my drive heads are clean, and the drive is set
up
>as per the service manual.
>
>Sometimes I wish I could pay more for a disk and get one that lasts. My
>data is worth a lot more than $5 or whatever.
>
>>
>> New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what
system) did
>> you guys carry around to start out with?
My first exposure to storage was 5.25" disks in third grade for the
Apple ][. It was old then. We were being terrorized by a moron who
spent a month telling us to put disks into a sleeve. I wondered if
he knew to do anything else. BTW, can a disk be damaged if taken out
while it is being read from? That was a sin I had commited...
>
>After that came : magnetic cards on an HP41CV, 5.25" floppies
(initially
>on the school's RML380Z, then on my TRS-80), paper tape (I got a
>non-working ASR33 and repaired it), 8" floppies, 3" floppies, punched
>cards, 3.5" floppies, hard disk packs, 9 track tapes, QIC tapes.
>
>Of course many of those are used on more than 1 machine, and I'm only
>listing the first time I used them.
>
>-tony
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I have that program, and I have only been able to copy something
so that the mac could read it only a couple of times. There is a
problem of it being unable to copy a file with both sides of the fork
used (i.e. you can dump everything into the resource fork, or
everything into the data fork, but can't use both. Executor stores
the two as separate files, it would be nice if I could tell Mac-ette
to use bla for the data fork of bbb and blb for the resource fork
of bbb. Alas...)
>>
ftp://ftp5.info.apple.com/Apple.Support.Area/Apple_SW_Updates/US/Macintosh/S
>> yste
>> > m/Older_System/
>> >
>> > Of course you need a functional Mac to make the floppies. If you
have
>> both
>> > hard drives, simply make sure the SCSI ID's are set to different
numbers,
>> > and either leave both in the machine, or copy the 40Mb drive to the
>> larger
>> > one. Another more expensive alternative would be to get a external
>> CD-ROM
>> > and a copy of MacOS on CD.
>>
>> Umm.... If there has any method to build up the Mac Discs on a PC??
>
>Yes, there is a free(?)/share(?)ware program named MAC-ETTE that will
>format, read, and write the 1.44mb Mac disks. The problem that most of
>us non-Mac yokels have is trying to figure out what goes in which fork!
>
>You should be abble to find it with a Web search.
>
> - don
>
>
>> Yours,
>> Ken Yaksa
>>
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did
>you guys carry around to start out with?
>
[Joel Fedorko]
Mid-Late '70s -
Punch Cards (80 col) for the IBM box
Paper tape for various HP & DEC boxes (with upgrades to mylar in the later years),
tape cartridges for the HP2645A Mini Data Station,
tape cassettes for a TI? terminal,
DECtape PDPs,
LINCtape (relative of DECtape) DEC, DG, Varian, Perkin-Elmer, Altair
Late 70s early 80s
9 Track tape dominated across the board
8" floppy for micro's
Brief encounter with the 96 column System 32 punch card
40 Meg disk pack for HP3000 (forget drive part#, it was made by CDC?)
<> Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels
<> Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree.
<> Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of
<> diodes and neon filled tubes.
<
<A good definition, I could agree, althrough I've seen
<Electric and Electronic the same, since a relay isn't
<diferent from a transistor or a tube for the effekt
<(beside the current).
The distinction for the last two is significant from a design and speed
standpoint. the design process is very different at the detail level.
Allison
From: Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk
Subject: Re[2]: CP/M
> Likewise the Commodore 8-bitters. In the early 1980s, I was one of the
> first in my school (I was 14 or so at the time) to own a floppy disk
> (yes, a disk, not a drive).
Gosh what memories, did you lug around a box of cassettes too??? Yeah,
disks back then were about $5.00 (US) a shot [not to be confused with
ammunition in previous off topics, though I can wield a mean VIC-20] for the
cheap SS/SD ones.
New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did
you guys carry around to start out with?
I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as
some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had
been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette
rewinds it, it is still readable.
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363
Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at:
http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
A large circulation (100,000) alternative publication in Toronto has run
several Chiapas-related articles the last couple of weeks. for the latest check
out
http://www.now.com/issues/current/News/feature2.html
They are slightly left of center and have a large influence among younger
people.
ciao Larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
<>New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system)
<>you guys carry around to start out with?
<>
8 level paper tape, boces/lirics PDP-8I timeshare system 1969
DECTAPE BOCES/LIRICS PDP-10 (tops-10) timeshare system 1970
MITS ACR casette(300baud), 1975
2400baud NRZ using audio cassette hardware (homebrew)late 1975
4800baud FM using audio cassettes early 1976
DRUM memory (real ugly four track, stored 32kb)
NS* microfloppy (5.25 sa400) late 1976
Just a few I've played with...
Allison
"Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> said:
>Do you have any diagrams of the mechanical fire control computers?
Try going to your local Federal building and look for the Goverment
Book Store. There you can find many different military training manuals.
Look for Navy manuals for Fire Control Technician 3 and 2. If you can
find it, it should have plenty of information on mechanical fire control
computers (At least they did 30 years ago).
I'm sure the Navy still uses these kind of computers on older ships with
5" guns.
=========================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=========================================
On Jun 18, 21:25, Larry Anderson wrote:
> Yeah,
> disks back then were about $5.00 (US) a shot [not to be confused with
> ammunition in previous off topics, though I can wield a mean VIC-20] for
the
> cheap SS/SD ones.
I recall being one of the first at the college I worked at then, to own
floppies. I remember the price was a few pounds each around 1980, and one
local supplier sold them to students one at a time. Unfortunately (for the
dealer) not all the staff realised the price was per floppy, not per
box-of-10, and a few of us reaped the benefit of that. I still use some of
those disks in an Apple ][.
> New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system)
did
> you guys carry around to start out with?
Most of my early computing was done on machines that used punched cards or
paper tape, but I didn't often get to keep the cards, and sadly I have no
cards or paper tape now. The first thing I carried about regularly was
cassette tape (CUTS format).
BTW, DECtape is 3/4" not 1" as Jim suggested (slip of the pen?). I still
have some, but alas no deck to read it on.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
At 06:30 AM 6/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>> I have found a AT&T 6310 PC box. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Is it
>> 10 years old, yet? It is heavy enough I'd thought it had a large
>>linear supply in it, but only a switcher ps! It was made in Italy by
>> Olivetti, as mentioned on the 6300 thread.
>
>Thats a 10MHZ 80286 box which was one of the last Olivetti AT&T PC's.
>
>Bill
>
Would anyone like it? Otherwise, I may find a use for it as a case or
"parts" set, as radio collectors say (I actually like to build old radios as
another hobby), as I don't have a keyboard, etc. for it. It would have to be
a pickup, as it weighs about 40 lb, (18kg)! I live in So. California,
Manhattan Beach.
-Dave
This is one for the, "You can't do squat with those dumb old computers"
file... I picked up a book at a thrift today, called, NEW HORIZONS IN
AMATEUR ASTRONOMY by Grant Fjermedal (C) 1989. Before I got out of the
first chapter I read this excellent little tidbit:
"...David Gedalia, of California's San Fernando Valley, attracted a lot
of attention by day and night with his 10-inch reflector on a
servo-controlled Dobsonian mount. This was set up near the back of his
pickup truck on the upper field, and on the tailgate of the truck was a
simple 64K Atari 800 computer running a star finding program that
Gedalia had written himself.
He had all the objects from Messier (the classic catalog of 104
prominent galaxies, nebulae, and other objects identified in the late
1700s) and several hundred other objects from the more voluminous New
General Catalog. It was so nice at night to see him enter a Messier
number, hit "Return" and listen to the purr of the servos as they
positioned the object right in the center of the eyepiece field..."
> From: mbg(a)world.std.com (Megan)
> Subject: Need help with Mac Classic
>
> My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent.
> I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this.
>
> - Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic?
>
68000 processor 1 to 2 megs of RAM
> - What options are available for it?
>
You can add up to 4 megs of RAM assuming you have the extra RAM expansion card
if not you have 1 until you locate the card to plug more SIMMs in.
There are a few accellerators (such as the MicroMac) but they are not all that
much faster when you get down to serious work.
No expansion, no color... :/ It will get you crawling on the internet with
B/W Mac Web and Eudora though.
You can get printers (apple ImageWriter, Stylewriter or Stylewriter II,
anything later wouldn't work or a Parallel printer using a PowerPrint
interface), external modems, extra drives, some decent educational programs,
decent applications (I recommend Claris Works 2 or 3) etc. for it, there is
still some usefullness in it.
> - Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse?
> Can I get along without one?
Barely, assuming you can activate the mousekeys (if the extension is in your
system) by pressing SHIFT-COMMAND-[KEYPAD]CLEAR, then you have the keypad
numbers to move the pointer and the 5 as a mouse button. I would really
recommend a mouse, thrift stores or used computer shops are a good try at
first, if not you can find used mice available somewhat reasonably on the
internet like in
news:misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc
>
> - Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?)
>
You can download it from the Apple site (www.apple.com) up to system 7... You
would be best to get 7.1 (no higher, it will bog down your 68000/4meg unit too
much) also available from resellers. System 7 is the minimum for somewhat
decent (read painless) internet access.
A Classic II is a much more capable machine... :/
> Any and all help appreciated...
>
Lemme know if you have any more, I still deal with them from time to time at
work (I don't think too much longer though I think most of our organization
will be color Macs and 'those other computers' soon... (=))
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363
Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at:
http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Larry Anderson wrote:
> I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as
>some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had
>been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette
>rewinds it, it is still readable.
I too started with cassettes, but in my early years it was Apple II and
Commodore VIC-20/C-64/C-16 tapes. A friend of mine (the owner of the C-16)
didn't have a datasette. He's pretty artistic; he'd sit there for hours,
plotting graphics through BASIC to the screen, only to lose it all when the
power was offed. He did have a VCR though, and would record the images on
VHS tape. (I wonder what he ever did with that tape, anyway?)
-
- john higginbotham ____________________________
- webmaster www.pntprinting.com -
- limbo limbo.netpath.net -
jon(a)techniche.com (Jon Healey) wrote:
> I went back to the surplus store today and picked up
> the old HP system that was there. This was not as simple
> as it sounds. The system was wired into a 5 bay 19" rack
> assemblage.
It reads to me like what you got was the *processor*. And I have to
wonder, why did you take it out? OK, I understand for transport but
you also wrote that there was an expansion card frame (which might
have more I/O cards) and other units in the rack. They may not be
essential to operation of the processor but they probably do go
together. Processors ain't everything ya know.
> The item obtained is an "HP 2100S Microprogrammable Systems Computer".
> It looks just like the 2100A shown at: www.trailingedge.com
>
> The card cage is fully populated but I haven't a clue at this
> point with what, with the exception that I already know it does
> have an async card (with associated moniter) and a GPIB
> card (and cable).
OK. If you take the top off, the cards in in the wider cage right
behind the front panel are the CPU proper (in slots 1-7 I think, with
options in 8 and 9 and maybe 10, though I may be off by one or two
here -- it's been a while since I looked) and the I/O interfaces. The
cards in the narrower cage about halfway back are memory (core) and
drivers for same. The not-card-cage areas contain power supply and
fans.
There should be part numbers and legends on at least some of the card
ears that give some clues what the cards are/do. Also the cards
themselves will often have part numbers etched. Of course I don't
have my books handy so can't post a handy decoder chart just now (and
doubt it would be complete even if I did). Feel free to post a list,
then sit back and watch us guess what you've got.
Given that this one says "Microprogrammable" on the front panel I
wonder if it has the WCS (Writable Control Store) option.
All that said...the 2100 is a second-generation HP mini from 1972, the
follow-on to the 2116/2115/2114 and predecessor to the 21MX that came
later in the 1970s. These processors formed the basis of the HP2000
time-shared BASIC and HP1000 real-time computer lines, as well as many
other special-purpose computer systems that HP developed and sold.
Overall they are a 16-bit two-accumulator architecture; the 2100 is
part hard-wired part microcoded with room for growth in the microcode,
while the earlier 2116/2115/2114 were purely hard-wired processors.
> Anyone interested in trading something for this beast?
>
> The biggest problem I see is that this thing weights
> about 100 lbs. It would be expensive to ship.
I'm interested but am thinking that you're in New Hampshire and I'm in
California. Shipping is possible but you're right, you can't just
toss this in a cardboard box with some peanuts or bubblewrap, so if
someone closer by says the magic words ("I'll come pick it up") or you
decide you want to keep it I'd say go for it. Besides, I'd want you
to go back for the rest of it. Foo, I want you to go back for the
rest of it *anyway*.
-Frank McConnell
In a message dated 98-06-17 22:37:02 EDT, you write:
<< I have a model 80 with built in SCSI that won't survive the next trash
pick up! My neighbor just pitched his model 70. I didn't bother to take
it out of the trash! I have a LOT of PCs that are a lot older than any PS-2
ever made! Altair -1976, IBM 5100 - 1977, HP 9100 - 1968, lots of HP
9815s, HP 9825s and HP 85s from the '70s.
You left out the idiotic micro-channel bus!
Joe >>
well, so you dont like mca. that's fine, but the 8580 didnt come with scsi
built in. the hard drive in it was ESDI. the premium series had built in scsi
on the planar. let me correct myself in saying that my model 77 will certainly
outlast any IBM-PC compatible machine of its era. please note that i am
comparing MCA to ISA here. im not disparaging any other type.
david
Hi there...
> Actually you can get copies of 6.0.x and 7.0.x from one of their FTP
sites
>
ftp://ftp5.info.apple.com/Apple.Support.Area/Apple_SW_Updates/US/Macintosh/S
yste
> m/Older_System/
>
> Of course you need a functional Mac to make the floppies. If you have
both
> hard drives, simply make sure the SCSI ID's are set to different numbers,
> and either leave both in the machine, or copy the 40Mb drive to the
larger
> one. Another more expensive alternative would be to get a external
CD-ROM
> and a copy of MacOS on CD.
Umm.... If there has any method to build up the Mac Discs on a PC??
Yours,
Ken Yaksa
>>
>>Hard, I own 2 Robotron PCs (one Z80 CP/M system and one PC Clone),
>>but since I live in Muenchen (:), I'm not in the 'native Environment'
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>of Robotron clasics. But maybe I could forward your questuons to some
>>east German friends.
> Well, Hans, I *thought* you had to be Bavarian (Bayerische)!! Either that
> or perhaps Austrian because of your signoff ("Servus").
You're the first US citicen to recognize this :)
> Will be over again in one year or more.
Great - give me a call (or a mail :) and I'll show yo usome
of my babys.
> Great to have you on the list as I've not seen
> postings of yours since the time I had joined last November until recently
> I think.
I just joined two weeks ago after Sam Ismail pointed
me to the list (we had some discusion about VCF - I
will come to see it - and other strange things).
> Good to have a person in our group who is nearby to the Deutches
> Museum who seems to have a very good early computer collection (saw it in
> 1994 or 95. Been there four times since '93).
You just searched a phon directory ? Didn't you ? Or
who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ?
True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance.
Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite
good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display
is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer
displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_
unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build
some junk place.
Ok, I have to be fair - the dispaly is quite amazing, but
in my opinion they ignored a lot of one-of-a-kind chances
just to finish it for the grand opening.
Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first
fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes -
they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete,
including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would
have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and
power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible,
but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old
tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone
will be here to tell the story.
Oh, next time when you visit the Deutsches Museum, take a
look at the Operator desk of the 2002 - you'll find a burned
spot, done by a cigarette. I know the guilty one - a friend
of mine, now retired, did it while they tried to find a power
up problem at the main drum - he acidently left his cigaret
at te desk and got so involved that he forgot it - BIG trouble.
> Wish I knew enough German to
> actually speak it but Bayerische is even harder to understand ;)
Amazing - I always had problems the other way.
> Gruss! Bis spaeter, Chris
Jo bis nacha.
Servus
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
>>I never heard of it, but maybe he thought about some
>>machine in his time as Imperial Mathematician in Prag
>>(1601..1612 - nice history on
>>http://www.kepler.arc.nasa.gov/johannes.html
>>) - but afaik the idea of calculating machines
>>did recive more attention (althrough more seen
>>as scince fiction) after the invention of the
>>Taschenuhr by Peter Heinlein (15something).
> I've never heard of the Taschenuhr. Can anyone tell me more or direct me to
> a source of information?
Taschenuhr -> fob watch.
Peter Heinlein did the first clock small enough to
fit in a pocket. It had the size of a big egg. I don't
remember the exactr year, but I think it was in the
first half of the 16th century.
There are a lot of legendary stories around this device
- inclundig the one that his whife had destroyed the
first one, since she belived that this thing, going
tick-tack must be devils work (remember 16th and 17th
century was a or better _the_ high time of witch hunting
and dark religous belives - Kepler for example had to
defend is mother somewhen in the 1620s agains a triel
of witchhood). So she destroyed his masterpice, and he
let himself imprisson for the next few month in the city
prison, to build a new one without beeing disturbed :)
Building small time devices had an impact to trade
like calculating machines in the early days of this
century. Starting from coach clocks for merchants
who lead their 'empire' from their coaches, until
fob watches. in the 15th/16th century coach clock
was an enormous expensive device - even compared
th the expensiv travling coaces, a coach clock could
cost up to 5 times the coach ! (Like wehn I put a
new Server in my old car :)
Servus
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Hey gang!
Several times during the past week or ten days I've tried to connect to the
ClassicCmp website http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp but
never seemed to be up. Always got a message after Netscape timed out
suggesting the web server is either down or not responding. Anybody know
what's happening?
Thanks,
--Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
I think the attached was directed at me.....and deservingly so.
The HP 2100S is at my offices in Manchester, NH. We're right
across the street from the airport. You could just fly in
pick it up, carry it on (yea sure) and be gone in a flash.
Jon
>At 02:24 PM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
> Everything except where it is!
>
>
>> Ooh! Not so fast! Is it straight, helical, worm or hypoid? Or an
>> eliptical gear even? But yes, a gear is easy to rconstruct from its
>> wreckage.
>
> Well, obviously one replaces with the correct type of gear!
>
>> Some cams and levers, though, have quite tight tolerance
>> spikes and notches which it is quite difficult to get right from seeing
>> the bent/broken ones.
>
> Impossible, sometimes. What if a special "hump" on a cam is so worn down
> that one cannot reconstruct its shape? Some of the correct "shape" could
> exist as aluminum powder.
That's what I meant. Tony was saying - and rightly so - that while you
can often see what a failed mechanical part was meant to be like by
studying the failed component, and can then cut a new gear (the
assumption was the gear isn't a standard part) / lever / cam or
whatever, you can't possibly tell what a dead chip was meant to do just
by looking at it. Likewise you can't tell what the value of that
charred resistor used to be...
I merely pointed out that with some tight tolerance cams and levers, you
have a similar problem - you can't tell by looking. "Difficult" in my
line above was a euphemism for "no hope"
>> Bearing in mind Tony's, Sam's and others' comments on intermittent
>> faults and the like, yes, up to a point. Video is not the only
>> exception, though - other things (e.g. disk drives) can suffer
>> similarly.
>
> No, not disk drives. Sure, some analog circuitry in a drive might go sour,
> but those faults would result in bad data. With a working drive, you want
> correct data, and if you do not get it, something is wrong. There is no
> tolerance. With an analog system, you have to expect that the output data
> will not be perfect. For example (also a magnetic recording medium),
> playing back a signal will never be the same as what was recorded, due to
> noise and distortion.
True, every word. But if you draw the distinction there - digital vs.
analogue circuitry - the comment to which I was replying deserves your
reply as well. The previous poster (wasn't you, William, was it?) drew
the distinction at a higher level, and said something like "a digital
_machine_ either works or it doesn't. Apart from video, the results are
either right or wrong. With analogue/mechanical, things can be slightly
out but the machine will go on working" Video is another analogue
subsystem in a digital machine, just like a disk drive, and all that
that implies...
BTW, video may not make the change from digital to analogue until
actually in the monitor, but the same applies - that which you see on
the display is (at the digital level) either right or wrong. It is only
when you get to the analogue bit that it is merely fuzzy.
Philip.
I've got this Hewlett Packard Controller 362 and have no need for it.
Anyone want it for the price of $5+shipping?
It's about the size of a "pizza box" workstation, heck, I think it is a
workstation. Boots up to something unix-like, has built-in VGA, 2mb memory,
and a slot on the front for a 3.5" 1.44mb floppy drive, which I needed to
scavenge for another machine.
It weighs about 15 lbs. and I live in North Carolina, so shipping might be
between $10-$15 depending on where you live.
Features:
HP-IB
Keyboard connector, RJ-45?
RS-232
Parallel
HP-IB 98624A Card installed in the back, apart from the built-in HP-IB.
Powe button on the front.
I couldn't test it out too thoroughly, I did have a monitor to boot it up
with, but no keyboard. Oh, and there's no HD inside the unit. I guess it
takes an external HP-IB drive.
If anyone wants it, first private response gets it.
-
- john higginbotham ____________________________
- webmaster www.pntprinting.com -
- limbo limbo.netpath.net -
for compact mac goodies, check out www.eden.com/~arena/jagshouse
i believe therewas some older system software there as well as some
interesting programs. be sure to get and run despair.sit; its the best one.
lol.
david
Hi there...
> If you still have the 40mb drive, set it for an ID other than 0 and
> connect it also. Then simply drag the system folder from the 40 to the
> new one. This assumes that the 40 had 7.5.x, of course.
>
> - don
Don, Which is 7.5.1 in the 40M HDD... But, if there has any way for me to
get a 7.5.3 diskette version?? 7.0 is just.... Umm....
Yours,
Ken Yaksa
>> P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of
>> Wilhelm Schickard from 1623.
> Johann Kepler tried to build some kind of calculator too I think.
I never heard of it, but maybe he thought about some
machine in his time as Imperial Mathematician in Prag
(1601..1612 - nice history on
http://www.kepler.arc.nasa.gov/johannes.html
) - but afaik the idea of calculating machines
did recive more attention (althrough more seen
as scince fiction) after the invention of the
Taschenuhr by Peter Heinlein (15something).
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
> I think that there are some exceptions to that Tony. The following is a
> clip from some correspondence with Chuck Guzis at Sydex a while back:
>
> "Another topic that I'd like to see some commentary on is how people
> have handled those old diskettes that lack the Index Address Mark
> information, such as those used on the Cromemco C10. On a PC
> controller, the first sector on a track on such a diskette usually falls
> to be seen by the FDC because it falls in the "blind spot" (ostensibly
> PLL sync-up time) of the 765-family chip.
Have you tried using a controller that doesn't need the Index Address Mark,
such as a WD1772 or a NatSemi DP8473 ?
> "But 3.5" diskette drives are too difficult to modify. We've had good
> read and write results by passing the index signal through a 1-shot
> carefully adjusted to trigger slightly ahead of the actual index
> position. But this is a very touchy arrangement, though it does work.
But the Index Address Mark isn't part of the spec for 3.5" disks. I know
most PC controllers put it there, but it's not in the Sony spec, and some
controllers (see above) will work fine without it.
> I know that I have experienced the problem of the first paragraph on more
> than the C10 disks.
> - don
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Hi,
Well this just goes to show how innate this collecting
behavior is or maybe I could blame it on altruism?
I went back to the surplus store today and picked up
the old HP system that was there. This was not as simple
as it sounds. The system was wired into a 5 bay 19" rack
assemblage.
The item obtained is an "HP 2100S Microprogrammable Systems Computer".
It looks just like the 2100A shown at: www.trailingedge.com
The card cage is fully populated but I haven't a clue at this
point with what, with the exception that I already know it does
have an async card (with associated moniter) and a GPIB
card (and cable).
I don't know what condition this is in other than the whole
rack of equipment looks like it was decomissioned while
still working. Most parts were still wired up. It hadn't
been plundered (one or two rack slots were newly emptied).
This unit appears to be in good shape. No dents or bent
edges. One of the front switch covers is missing (these
look like they pop off for lamp replacement). I even have
the key for the power lock, an obvious indication that it
has been taken care of!
There was another expansion card frame in the same rack.
Similar box but with no front panel switches. I didn't
get this. It is probably still available. I also didn't
get any of the i/o card edge connector cables that connect
to the other equipment in the 5 bay unit. As it was it
took me over an hour to extract this thing from its nest.
I did take the GPIB and async i/o cables.
Anyone interested in trading something for this beast?
The biggest problem I see is that this thing weights
about 100 lbs. It would be expensive to ship.
Jon
At 02:50 AM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Doug wrote:
>
>
>Fixing my stuck "execute" key looks like it'll be a bastard too. It's not
>stuck, the "snap" mechanism appears to be simply gone (not easily
>explained since the keyboard appears to be a tight sandwich). I hope that
>key isn't important in the big scheme of things, but I have a nagging
>suspicion that it's needed to program.
Yes, it's important. You press it to execute an expression immediately.
You press ENTER (or STORE? I haven't used it in a while) to enter the
expression into a stored program.
Joe
> HRK wrote:
Ups :)
>>>>Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my
>>>>general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly
>>>>80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone,
>>>>etc.) but will take just about anything.
>>> And if you know of a robotron in the SF bay area available for cheap,
>>> 4-6hours of sleep per night is way too much anyway... 8^)
>> Robotron ?
>> Talking about the East German Computers ?
> [falls on floor laughing]
> No. He is talking about video games.
> I made exactly that mistake about a year ago - someone mentioned that he
> liked Robotron, and I immediately jumped in asking for info about East
> German computers! (only to back out, somewhat embarrassed, a few
> messages later)
Shure, the context is prety clear - I just couldn't resist :)
> I have, it seems, the front panel and associated logic from a Robotron
> [can't remember the model number]. I bought it on holiday in Munich,
> sorry, Muenchen, a few years ago (picture the scene: eccentric hacker
> with estate car (station wagon) full of kit, GB plates on the back,
> trying to get through customs at Strasbourg. I got so exasperated that
> when they asked, "etes-vous espion?" I said "mais oui!")
rotfl.
> But what I was really wanting to say was, at last someone else who's
> heard of the East German Robotron! Do you have any info about them,
> what they did, when they did it, specific machines? Is there the
> remotest chance that if I post the model number of my stuff you can find
> me docs on it? Or tell me where to find docs on it?
Hard, I own 2 Robotron PCs (one Z80 CP/M system and one PC Clone),
but since I live in Muenchen (:), I'm not in the 'native Environment'
of Robotron clasics. But maybe I could forward your questuons to some
east German friends.
Servus
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
<Yes, but Apple ][ disks are not readable on hardsectored controllers
<either. You couldn't take a disk from an Apple ][ and read it on a NS* or
<a Z17.
Actually the NS* contrller and the apple one are very close in that they
are minimalist. The NS controller can read media without index/sector
as years back I wrote a driver that did track read and writes for to see
if I could use softsector media. I had to lay down a lot more marks thats
all. The basic NS* read and write counts sectors, then waits for a sync
byte and then reads.
What the NS* controller cannot do is create the various marks that have
missing clocks.
Allison
> C'mon. Even I basically know this one. A hard sectored diskette has tiny
> little holes (IIRC, near the inside), so that the computer would move from
> one to the next in a mechanical manner (hardware), while MOST soft sectored
> diskettes had a single hole used for refference. From there, it would just
> spin around, and control the rest by software. The Apple II, however,
> COMPLETELY ignored this. It could use hard sectored or soft sectored
> diskettes, or even diskettes with no little hole at all. It was completely
> software driven.
Likewise the Commodore 8-bitters. In the early 1980s, I was one of the
first in my school (I was 14 or so at the time) to own a floppy disk
(yes, a disk, not a drive). I had heard of "flippy disks" with two
index holes, which you could turn over, thus using both surfaces in a
single sided drive. But I didn't realise you needed to give it a second
index hole.
So I just cut a second write-permit notch and turned it over. It
worked! Commodore 4040 didn't use the index hole!
Philip.
><> And (though no doubt I'll find I'm wrong when I look at those web pages
><> I thought Z3 was a relay machine, not electronic.
><> [Distinction. Relay - switching is performed by moving parts of the
><> circuit. Electronic, whether tubes or solid state, switching acts
><> directly on the electrons (or holes), hence the term]
> Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels
> Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree.
> Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of
> diodes and neon filled tubes.
A good definition, I could agree, althrough I've seen
Electric and Electronic the same, since a relay isn't
diferent from a transistor or a tube for the effekt
(beside the current).
Servus
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Sorry, folks. We have some intermittent mail problems here and I
accidentally got set to POSTPONE again.
If Hans Franke (or anyone else) has posted a reply to my Robotron query,
please send me - privately - another copy. Address,
Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk
Thanks.
Philip.
> Recently, I just got an old Mac IIci, which has 40M HDD & 8M RAM. After
> all, I added the RAM to 32M, and also want to change the stupid 40M SCSI
> HDD to a larger one.... But the problem is, I just can't find a diskette
> version of Mac OS 7.5.x for it... What can I do...??
> If anyone has the old Mac OS, would you all pls make a copy for me?? I will
> pay the shipping and diskette cost..... (Coz, I don't think if I can get a
> new copy from APPLE.. :( )
Buy a external SCSI CD-ROM and install from CD - they should be
sill availabe at Apple dealers (the CDs) - maybe they even give
the CD away for free. Maybe they even lend you the CD drive for a
small fee. The other solution is just to keep the 40 MB drive
and use it as boot drive or, third solution, just use it once
paralell to copy the system folder. If you plan to use the ci
futher, a CD is a must to auire new soft.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
>> The first programable general purpose computer is for shure
>> the Z1. And the first electronic computer is the Z3 since
>> the Z1 was just mechanical. Also both are the first binary
>> floating point computers (Babage used decimal wheels).
> Hey! They can't both be the first floating point binary machine!
> Presumably the Z1 was.
Z1 first computer, first floating point and binary computer
but mechanical. Z3 the same (but better) and electronical.
> And (though no doubt I'll find I'm wrong when I look at those web pages)
> I thought Z3 was a relay machine, not electronic.
> [Distinction. Relay - switching is performed by moving parts of the
> circuit. Electronic, whether tubes or solid state, switching acts
> directly on the electrons (or holes), hence the term]
Different definition:
In mechanical computers (and calculators) the information is
proccessed and transported by mechanical actions/things - like
wheels or pushin/pulling bars.
In electronical computers information is processed and transported
by flow of electricity.
So the Z1 is pure mechanical (the only electrcal component
was (is) the motor to drive all bars), while the Z3 is
electronical. The Z2 was in fact a mixed up - The storage
memory was mechanical (used from the Z1) but the CPU was
electronic (Relais). You see ? There are mix ups already
in the early evolution - Zuse even thought about using
tubes instead of relais, but they have been way to expensive.
Later on there have been again mixed ups. Relais + mechanical
+ tubes - or Tubes plus transistors + relais ... and so on.
(Oh and even my APPPLE ][+ was a mixed up - he utilized
a relay on the 80 colum card for switching :)
> Was the Z3 like the Z4 in using old 35mm cine film for punched tape?
> (don't try and read it with an optical reader!!!!)
Never heard of opto-mechanics ? *g*
In fact all early Zuse computers used old cine tapes.
Z1, Z2, Z3, Z4.
>> P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of
>> Wilhelm Schickard from 1623.
> What date was Pascal's calculator, someone?
1642
> Irony of the week: the
> Pascal calculator in the London Science Museum is a decimal model. That
> in the Deutches Museum is a Pounds, Shillings and Pence model. :-)
Afaik they also own a decimal one, but Pounds, Shillings and Pence
ar _way_way_way_ more exotic :) - It gets a lot more attention than
'just' decimal calculaters, althrough the difference are only some
of the wheels.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
>>> P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of
>>> Wilhelm Schickard from 1623.
>> Johann Kepler tried to build some kind of calculator too I think.
> Does Blaise Pascal's box count?
19 Jears to late - Pascals machine is dated 1942.
But thinking again, we should define what a 'calulatoer'
is for our search of the first one - Right now I prefer
the definition of a macanic machine to add and subtract
numbers, displayed in (decimal) digits by pointers or
similar, without restrictions to special numbers. This
excludes analogous calculators and special purpose thingis.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
At 02:04 AM 6/19/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, dave dameron wrote:
>
>> I have a bunch of stuff on the 8008, some too much for me to easily copy
>> completely, including the MCS-8 8008 Users Manual (126 pages).
>
>That sounds interesting. How much of that is just instruction set? If
>that chapter is smallish, a copy would be great! I'm looking for info
>sufficient to write a simulator, so ISA + exceptions/interrupts/etc.
>should do the trick.
>
The stuff on instructions, timing states, interrupts, etc. is about 12 pages.
The 8008 instructions (48) are simple enough that someone just learning how
to write a computer program (Me back then) could understand all of them.
Interesting, back then, 1973, Intel sold a simulator as a Fortran IV program, or
it could be run on a time-share service. Also a cross assembler. The
resident assembler took 2k - 8 1702 EPROMS for their SIM8 microcomputer board.
>> In the 1976 Intel Data catalog, there is a 7 page data sheet:
>> Page 1 Title and block diag.
>> page 2 Photomicrograph
>> Page 3 Functional pin description
>> Page 4,5 Instruction set
>> Page 6 Ratings, D.C., A.C. characteristics
>> Page 7 Timing Diagram
>
>Good stuff, but I've already had one offer for a copy. Since it's small,
>I'll try to get around to web-izing it. (Intel copyright lawyers be
>damned! (At least until they ask me to take it down.))
>
>-- Doug
>
-Dave
I just picked up a bag full of 5.25" disks, that are completely
soaked by rain. How do I dry them so that
a)they are usable at least long enough to transfer the software
b)I run a reasonable chance of saving the labels
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
You might want to check out the MDP-8008 Assembler Users Manual at:
http://jldh449-1.intmed.mcw.edu/assembler-doc.html
-Mike
----------
From: dave dameron
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 1998 5:47 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: 8008 Datasheets
Hi Doug and all,
At 05:04 PM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anybody have Intel 8008 datasheets that they're willing to copy for
>me? I'll gladly pay for the copying/shipping.
>
>
I have a bunch of stuff on the 8008, some too much for me to easily copy
completely, including the MCS-8 8008 Users Manual (126 pages).
In the 1976 Intel Data catalog, there is a 7 page data sheet:
Page 1 Title and block diag.
page 2 Photomicrograph
Page 3 Functional pin description
Page 4,5 Instruction set
Page 6 Ratings, D.C., A.C. characteristics
Page 7 Timing Diagram
-Dave
They're on the web at:
www.sunrem.com
Mike
----------
From: Ken Yaksa
Sent: Friday, June 19, 1998 2:06 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS!
Hi Pamela Allison:
> If you can't find one, check with Sun Remarketing in Smithfield Utah.
They will sell all the way back to version 3.2 on 400 k disks.
But the problem is that I live in Hong Kong.... :(
<
<> And (though no doubt I'll find I'm wrong when I look at those web pages
<> I thought Z3 was a relay machine, not electronic.
<
<> [Distinction. Relay - switching is performed by moving parts of the
<> circuit. Electronic, whether tubes or solid state, switching acts
<> directly on the electrons (or holes), hence the term]
Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels
Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree.
Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of
diodes and neon filled tubes.
Allison
> My mom got fed up by the amount of junk I have in my room, so I will
> start to get rid of it (something I'd been planning to do).
My girlfriend's getting fed up by the amount of junk I have in our
apartment, so I'm trying to get rid of some of it, too. Shipping costs
are all I'm looking for (trades accepted, too, though preferably for
small things).
1. An Amdek color monitor, originally for use with Apples (I think). RCA
video input, eighth-inch audio input. I've used this as a spare TV, but
the screen has a strong green tint to it. It's heavy.
2. A Commodore 64, sold to me as not working, never bothered to test it.
No power supply or anything.
3. A docking station for a Compaq laptop - 386/486, exact model unknown.
--
Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley(a)ac.grin.edu
CMEL: Xavier CBEL: Xavier OH
Spammers: How can you be sure that I don't live in Washington State?
Hi Megan,
If you're looking for a place to donate some computer
(mac or otherwise), I'll take it. I'm trying to organize
my personal collection in to a formal museum-like display.
I'm always looking to expand that collection. At present
it has 0 apple computer systems in it!
I own my own software company and I am trying to do this
in our warehouse area. I intend that it should remain a
privately owned collection, but I'd like to open it up to
public viewing, by appointment anyway. That way I could
show it to groups like ham clubs, schools, software and
hardware professional groups, etc.
It's not a non-profit organization (in fact it's not legally
any kind of formal organization, although my company informally
subsidizes it), so there wouldn't be any tax write-off.
Keep me in mind,
Jon Healey
techNiche, Inc.
(603) 626-7000
>> My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent.
>> I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this.
>>
>> - Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic?
>>
>> - What options are available for it?
>>
>> - Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse?
>> Can I get along without one?
>>
>> - Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?)
>>
>> Any and all help appreciated...
>>
>> Megan Gentry
>> Former RT-11 Developer
>>
>
>Get in touch with me and I'll be glad to help you out.
>I can cut the OS on Mac disks for you.
>I also have a couple of old Mac Plus systems that I've been looking
>to donate somewhere.
>
>I can probably dig up a mouse as well.
>
>Bill
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 |
>| 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. |
>| pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
<That sounds interesting. How much of that is just instruction set? If
<that chapter is smallish, a copy would be great! I'm looking for info
<sufficient to write a simulator, so ISA + exceptions/interrupts/etc.
<should do the trick.
The instruction set is some 48 instructions and most are real simple.
to make a sim you need timing, instruction set functions and a few trivial
details. one thing, write in something like interpreted pascal, the 8008
was slow as the fast part did a register to register move in a whopping
10.8 microseconds. To give an idea of how slow that is the 8080 did it
in 2 us, z80/4mhz in 1us, 8048 2.5us, 8051/11mhz 1us, 8088/5mhz 1us.
The 8008 was slow!
Allison
<"But 3.5" diskette drives are too difficult to modify. We've had good
<read and write results by passing the index signal through a 1-shot
<carefully adjusted to trigger slightly ahead of the actual index
<position. But this is a very touchy arrangement, though it does work.
<
<I know that I have experienced the problem of the first paragraph on more
<than the C10 disks.
< - don
Some formats produced with 1771 or 179x can be nasty. The fix is to delay
the index using two oneshots one set long (95% or a rotation) and the
second long enough to provide a recognizable pulse. This trick can permit
you to "move" the index sensor as needed electronically.
Allison
My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent.
I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this.
- Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic?
- What options are available for it?
- Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse?
Can I get along without one?
- Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?)
Any and all help appreciated...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com |
| Digital Equipment Corporation | |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
I'm also playing with a Mac Classic at the moment. Mine had 2Mb RAM, a 20Mb
hard drive and the keyboard and mouse. I believe they are very similar to
the SE, just more economical to manufacture and with a 1.4Mb floppy drive.
>
>My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent.
>I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this.
>
>- Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic?
Ram on the mainboard is 1Mb but there is an extender card usually fitted
with another 1Mb and room for 2 X 30pin simms. I put 2 X 1Mb PC simms in it
and they work fine. There is a jumper to move to do this. Well marked. 4Mb
is max RAM.
I replaced the hard drive with a 120Mb SCSI drive but the initialization
program in the OS only works on Apple branded disks. I'm still trying to
sort this out.
>
>- What options are available for it?
>
>- Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse?
> Can I get along without one?
You need a mouse. I have accumulated a few from garage sales etc. There are
two types. You can't use the one from very early Macs, you need the one with
a PS/2 size connector. Same as the keyboard, and in fact it plugs into the
normal keyboard.
>
>- Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?)
I also picked these up at garage sales. I have been told to stick with
System 6 because System 7 takes up too much memory for this machine.
Hans
HRK wrote:
> A neat (english) description of the Z1 and Z3 could be found at
> http://www.zib.de/prospekt/zuse/zusez1z3.html
> (Hard code documentation) or
> http://bang.lanl.gov/video/sunedu/computer/z1z4.html
> (soft :)
Thanks - I'll have a look at those!
> The first programable general purpose computer is for shure
> the Z1. And the first electronic computer is the Z3 since
> the Z1 was just mechanical. Also both are the first binary
> floating point computers (Babage used decimal wheels).
Hey! They can't both be the first floating point binary machine!
Presumably the Z1 was.
And (though no doubt I'll find I'm wrong when I look at those web pages)
I thought Z3 was a relay machine, not electronic.
[Distinction. Relay - switching is performed by moving parts of the
circuit. Electronic, whether tubes or solid state, switching acts
directly on the electrons (or holes), hence the term]
Was the Z3 like the Z4 in using old 35mm cine film for punched tape?
(don't try and read it with an optical reader!!!!)
> P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of
> Wilhelm Schickard from 1623.
What date was Pascal's calculator, someone? Irony of the week: the
Pascal calculator in the London Science Museum is a decimal model. That
in the Deutches Museum is a Pounds, Shillings and Pence model. :-)
Philip.
HRK wrote:
>>>Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my
>>>general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly
>>>80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone,
>>>etc.) but will take just about anything.
>
>> And if you know of a robotron in the SF bay area available for cheap,
>> 4-6hours of sleep per night is way too much anyway... 8^)
>
> Robotron ?
>
> Talking about the East German Computers ?
[falls on floor laughing]
No. He is talking about video games.
I made exactly that mistake about a year ago - someone mentioned that he
liked Robotron, and I immediately jumped in asking for info about East
German computers! (only to back out, somewhat embarrassed, a few
messages later)
I have, it seems, the front panel and associated logic from a Robotron
[can't remember the model number]. I bought it on holiday in Munich,
sorry, Muenchen, a few years ago (picture the scene: eccentric hacker
with estate car (station wagon) full of kit, GB plates on the back,
trying to get through customs at Strasbourg. I got so exasperated that
when they asked, "etes-vous espion?" I said "mais oui!")
But what I was really wanting to say was, at last someone else who's
heard of the East German Robotron! Do you have any info about them,
what they did, when they did it, specific machines? Is there the
remotest chance that if I post the model number of my stuff you can find
me docs on it? Or tell me where to find docs on it?
Philip.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel.
Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel.
Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst;
Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst.
Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk
Hi Pamela Allison:
> If you can't find one, check with Sun Remarketing in Smithfield Utah.
They will sell all the way back to version 3.2 on 400 k disks.
But the problem is that I live in Hong Kong.... :(