- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>The problem in my mind was that there was no guiding thread, no >hook", no core story, no moral or lesson - just fumbling computer >companies, insane investors, inept marketroids, crazy genius types, >etc. Is this interesting enough, or just interesting to Amiga-heads? The former. I can read commodore anecdotes for hours and never get tired. One of my favorites is that they drilled circuit boards (some early machine) to prevent people from putting their own upgrade chips in (rather than have the dealer do it), and it cost them more to do this than the cost of the actual chip. I mean, there does have to be some tie-together, but it's always there if one has a lot of information. Here's one: Capitalism, the abode of stupidity, is the crematorium of ingenuity and creativity. Just off the top of my head. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

1
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available 8" disks

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Why are folks scrounging on this list for blank 8" floppies when they a <> readily available by mail order? < <I'd guess lack of information and price, Tim. < < - don I'm as baffled as you two as if I ship disks I'm going to charge $5 just so I have shipping covered for a box of about 10. After all of I have a handful of people doing a send me some it could very likely incur some serious $$$ in shipping. No real bargan there. Allison

27 years, 12 months

1
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Macintoshes...

by mbg＠world.std.com

>The 512K uses an older mouse that is internally compatible with a PC bus >mouse or an Amiga mouse, just one button. I do not know the pinout of >the Mac, but it should be a trivial exercise to build a pin swabber. You Speaking of Mac Mice... At the MIT Flea this past weekend, I picked up a mouse for the Mac Classic I mentioned in other mail... it is the 'original' style of apple mouse. My question is whether this will work correctly with the Mac Classic -- it does seem to plug in, but since I'm not getting much response from the system, I don't know... BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes light grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds and then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this way for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this normal? Have I simply not allowed the system adequate time to boot to a user screen? (I'm used to an RT system which boots in about 30-45 seconds, depending on amount of memory). Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one apparently does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on PCs... the other one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... What is this? Please pardon a really naive Mac user (this is my first use of a Mac, and I'm not impressed so far), and I'm trying to get this thing working for my partner's pre-school class. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 12 months

3
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Loss of early UCSD P-System materials...

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

I would honestly LOVE to visit that web site, but my proxy denies fulfilling the request. Like it's got sensitive info. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 7:40 PM Subject: Re: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... >kroma <kroma(a)worldnet.att.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>>>>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch >>> >>>OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!! > >At 06:06 PM 6/25/98 +0300, Hotze wrote: >>Ha. You think that you're funny, don't you? > >Well, even I laughed. Ken's not dead, though. He's at ><http://www.electriciti.com/~bowlesk>. > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm> >

27 years, 12 months

1
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IMSAI 8080

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Firstly a CD player is not that easy to convert into a CD-ROM drive. My <> CD-ROM drive _is_ based on a CD-player, and I have the service manuals <> both for the CD-ROM drive and the player. The mods are not that simple < <I'm not talking about converting - I'm talking that in 25 years <still new drives will be available to read CDs - Maybe some kind <of hyper-DVD-super-ultra drives - but able to read 'regular' CDs. That may be longer than reasonable... I'd use say writable CDrom and if 9 years from now the ability to read that start getting scarce I'd use the next technology that is current then and copy to that. This would allow reading using available technology and also insure the data was fresh. FYI: checksums and various other means can be used to insure a file has not been compromized and also make recovery possible. < <> Secondly, where do I get a 78rpm record player these days (new, of <> course). Or a Playtape player. Or an 8-track cartridge player. Music <> formats do go out of production as well. Some do some don't and a few are easy to make. a player for 78rpm disks would be pretty trivial. Certain tape formats are fairly easy like 800/1600 bpi magtape. <shure ther will - I bet any money you want - or wait - I what <about my Pascal Microengine ? You'll get it if there is no new, <working, CD reading device availabe in 2023 :) It is necessary to look at the entire archival picture. copies of the eproms/roms PALs are only a peice, spares to reproduce them and the tools needed to insert code are also required. Allison

27 years, 12 months

3
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available 8" disks

by allisonp＠world.std.com

I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several hundred floppies. Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can be packed in plastic disk boxes. If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. Also I have another box load that have programs (orginal disks) of the likes of deadline, planetffall, Aventure and more. Allison

27 years, 12 months

6
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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

> Now, I've found 9tack tape to be _very_ reliable, second only to paper > tape. Certainly a lot more reliable than EPROMs, PROMs, etc. If kept in proper environment. >> I had even new taps failing to record. > Good, branded tapes, or just random cheap ones? Branded - a pcs at 140 USD. > The other thing is, nobody has said that you only keep one backup, right? :) > Keep the original EPROM, in use, and hope you don't need a backup Shure thats why I have them - Backup isn't the bussines it's the tool. > Keep a copy on your PC's hard disk, for looking at, and for burning an > EPROM from if your screwdriver slips and applies 12V to the Vcc pin of > the EPROM... I still use an 8085 systems for the EPROM thing :) > Keep a copy on floppy disk or PC streamer tape, just in case you delete > the wrong file > Keep a copy on paper tape in case all else fails. > And keep a copy on CD-R, 9-track, Zip, etc. Whatever else you can store > it on. The more copies you have, the more likely one will be readable in > the future. :) >>>> And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >>>> Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. >>> Oh, I don't know. I've managed to play 1960's reel-to-reel audio tapes >>> (and early 19790's video tapes, reel and cassette) with no real >>> problems. If you pick a suitably redundant format for the data I suspect >>> it'll be OK. >> Managed to play and recovering all information are >> different things. > Yes, but > (a) you'd use a partially redundant encoding system (I _know_ I > would) so you could recover partially damaged data. > (b) 'damage' that affects audio or video recordings may not have much > effect on data (and vice versa). For example minor print-through would > certainly be audible, but it might be possible to set the read thresholds > so a digital tape drive wouldn't notice it. Ditto for fading. On the > other hand drop-outs have a much greater effect on digital data than on > audio or video recordings. true. >> And back to CDs (to reunite the two threads): >> Theres a huge difference between your listed magnetic things >> and CDs - the music sector - I bet any summ you want that >> there will be new drives in 20 years from now, able to read >> a CD made today (if the CD contend isn't damaged of course). > Firstly a CD player is not that easy to convert into a CD-ROM drive. My > CD-ROM drive _is_ based on a CD-player, and I have the service manuals > both for the CD-ROM drive and the player. The mods are not that simple. I'm not talking about converting - I'm talking that in 25 years still new drives will be available to read CDs - Maybe some kind of hyper-DVD-super-ultra drives - but able to read 'regular' CDs. > Secondly, where do I get a 78rpm record player these days (new, of > course). Or a Playtape player. Or an 8-track cartridge player. Music > formats do go out of production as well. Stop. 8-track - or what ever special formates beside regular phonographic disks had always only a special small ocurence - like ZIP drives, or almost any old media on computers beside mybe tapes. For 78rpm players you should take a look at a shop for analogue enthusiasts - there are still _new_ players available - ok, I don't know if they sell more than 100 pcs a year word wide, but they are available - and for 33/45rpm players, almost any audio store still has at least one _new_ model to offer. Even Quelle (big mail order company in Germany) still offers players. And now it's almost 20 years after the CD. Again, I give no chance for special devices and solution, but I think there will be new CD Players even in 25 years - I am shure ther will - I bet any money you want - or wait - I what about my Pascal Microengine ? You'll get it if there is no new, working, CD reading device availabe in 2023 :) Servus hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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[Fwd: Re: CoCo III at garage sale...]

by poesie＠geocities.com

An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 2025 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/c2d3c0c2/at…

27 years, 12 months

1
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Early speech board maker?

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

<Cool Stuff about the history of computer speech SNIPPED> > A year or two earlier, Texas Instruments got into speech synthesis in a big > way using a technique halfway between digitized speech and speech > synthesis, a > process that might now be called "smoothed sampling". It worked much better > than true synthesis in that its intelligiblity was quite good. Because of > that, TI was able to sell a variety of manufacturers on the idea of having > talking washing machines, microwave ovens, vaccuum cleaners, etc. The most > expensive of these talking machines was the Chrysler LeBaron automobile > -- and > people (the end-users, not the engineers) found all of this incredibly > irritating. The single most requested option on the LeBaron, by far and > away, > was to have the speech generator deleted. > > Talking appliances were a technological fad that lasted only about three > years, 1979-1982. /NOSTALGIA = ON Wow, this brings back a funny (well to me, anyway) memory. In 1983, I used to service two way mobile radios for a Motorola Service Center in Los Angeles. Typically, the customer would bring in his car, explain the problem, and then wait in the lounge whil I worked on it. One day, this guy comes in with this big, shiny new luxury car (well, maybe it was a Buick? Chrysler? anyway . .), with a broken two-way. I'm sitting next to him in the front seat, and he's trying to explain the trouble. The whole time, the car is saying <<The key is in the IGNITION>>, <<The key is in the IGNITION>> . . . in a decidedly mechanical pseudo-woman's voice. The guy gets pissed, and angrily jerks the key out of the ignition (shutting up the robot), and continues to tell me how he can't talk to his dispatcher . . . An hour goes by, and I replace a bad antenna and feed line, and clamp down the BIG +12v lead, and so on. I start the engine, the radio works ok, so I kill it, and head for the lounge where the customer is waiting. We step outside, I explain the work I did, and he signs the invoice. As he turns towards the car, he asks me where are his keys. Using the best mechanical voice I could muster I replied: <<The key is in the IGNITION>>, <<The key is in the IGNITION>> . . . /NOSTALGIA = OFF Well, it was funny at the time. You really had to have been there . . . Jeff +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 12 months

2
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Macintoshes...

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 25, 2:12, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas I don't have Inside Macintosh, and the old volumes seem to be out of > print. From what I rember, the keyboard sources the clock signal, and the > data line is bidirectional. The Mac starts a transmission by pulling the > data line low and releasing it, or something, doesn't it? That's right. > As to what the actual bytes mean, well, I've not hacked it yet. Looks like I need a trip to the photocopier again :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 12 months

2
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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 02:34 PM 6/23/98 PDT, you wrote: >A Mac II is a 68020 or higher machine, the descendant of regular macs. >Video was on an expansion card. 5 NuBus slots, I think. Room for two >hard drives and two floppy drives (If you could ship me the ROM and RAM Actually, room for 2 floppies and 1 hard drive, either 3.5" or 5.25" half-height. (I suppose, if you were really creative, you could mount a 3.5" hd where the second floppy went, but you might have power problems.) Drives were mounted on a metal platform above the HD. Had 8 30-pin SIMM slots; not sure what (if any) the max RAM was. Standard was probably 4Meg. >Other models in this series were: Mac IIx - 68030? Mac IIfx Mac IIvx (iirc) All shared the larger, almost pc-like box. Pop-off top to the case, making it easy to get inside, but you needed a special bracket to mount the hard drive on (which then was mounted to the platform.) >Mac IIci - Narrower case with one space for HDD, one for FDD, three >slots, video on the board Probably my favorite Mac case. Similar but different. About 2/3 the width of the II. Drives are now stacked, with the Hard Drive simply snapping into the case (once you put it in its custom carrier.) Memory is easy to get at, still had 3 expansion slots. 68030 at 33mhz, on-board video. IIcx used the same case (same, but no video, maybe slower CPU?) >Mac IIsi - Same, but a more modern case Slimmer case, slightly slower than the IIci (20mhz?). Similar to the LC models. One non-nubus slot; adapters were available. >>place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet If anyone's interested, I'll be bringing some mac II cases (with M/B & P/S, but won't boot (prolly dead battery)) to VCF 2.0 to sell or trade. They're machines that I got for Rachel's classroom, that I scrounged for parts. She's getting tired of having a stack of mac's in her basement all the time. (And if I get rid of those, plus some huge monitors she can't use, she can store the computers from school at her place over the summer instead of at my place.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 12 months

2
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IBM RS6000 for sale

by peacock＠simconv.com

> I found this on another list I'm on. Is this of any interest to anyone here? $4,000 O.B.O. Or you can just wait until someone gives you an first generation RS/6000... > At work we have an old RS/6000 320H (25Mhz, 1st generation) sitting in a corner, not used anymore as all our customers have replaced AIX with SCO on a P II. Boss asked me last week if we could do something with it, now I have an answer.... store it for a few more years then sell it as a collectible classic, maybe we'll get more for it than we paid new. :) Jack Peacock

27 years, 12 months

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CoCo III at garage sale...

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:16 PM 6/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Woah, what's that all about? Something along the lines of "In a dark >> future, a lone boy with the power of his trusty TANDY COCO saves the >> galaxy from domination by the evil Q'OMMADOR Empire"? :) Probably interactive fiction ala Zork etc. (Or possibly the kind where you read a page, then at the bottom it says "If you try to negotiate with the Q'Ommador Mneflug, turn to page 138. If you try to kill the Mneflug with your Quoxicalt, turn to page 47. If you turn and run while waving your appendages wildly, turn to page 302.") --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 12 months

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Macintoshes...

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 09:42 PM 6/24/98 -0400, you wrote: >'original' style of apple mouse. My question is whether this will work DE-9 connector? Won't work with the classic. Ya need on with a round, 4-pin connector, about the size of a PS/2 keyboard connector. >BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the smiley >disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes light grey with >a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds and then I get the >'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. So far so good. Sounds like the machine works. >This remains this way for as much as 10 >minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this normal? Have I simply not Not normal at all. Most likely, you have a drive with a missing or incomplete operating system on it. Your best bet is to find a local Mac user group (or friendly mac user) and get them to make a copy of the OS disks (v. 7.0 or 6.0.8). You can then boot from those disks and reinstall the OS. >allowed the system adequate time to boot to a user screen? (I'm used to >an RT system which boots in about 30-45 seconds, depending on amount of >memory). The Mac should do about the same, again depending on the amount of memory and the number of plug-ins it loads. >one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced >by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... Debugger. Dunno any more than that, I'm an applications programmer. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 12 months

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Pet 2001

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

Got a call from a woman with a Pet 2001 here in the bay area (east bay, actually) plus some sloppy drives and such. Please give her a call if you're interested. Her name is Asale Kimaada (Pronounced Uh-saw-luh Kih-mah-duh) and her phone is 1-925-606-7239. She's looking for an honest offer. She doesn't know what it's worth, (neither do I) but doesn't want to be cheated. She apparently gets a lot of older stuff in, so being fair would be good in the long run. btw, she was at last year's VCF; she was near the exhibits on the left side (looking towards the exhibits) iirc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 12 months

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Xerox Daybreak

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 12:32 PM 6/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >I don't suppose that anyone (Xerox?) taped this presentation did they? I know I >would love to see the demo and wouldn't mind paying to get a copy. The guard I talked to said tapes would be available for $50/copy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 12 months

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Xerox Daybreak

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:07 AM 6/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >The Star presentation was certainly well attended -- it was packed to >overflowing! I was out in the lobby watching the presentation on a When we got there, the guard was (rather ineffectively) trying to turn people away. We slipped past after I mumbled something about trying to find some friends. The guard said the demo was originally scheduled for a room that could handle 100 people. His estimate was that there was at least 700 people there, but I don't think he was counting the cafeteria in that estimate. >Uncle Roger tried to make me hold up a classiccmp sign, I tried [...] > and date as Roger now wants to check and see whether his tap > dancing lessons collide. Oh, sure, make me sound like a complete weirdo. (Yes, I know it's true, but you don't have to tell everybody. 8^) Btw, tap class is Fridays at 7, so Thursdays are good. >(c) So...fine, here's a time and place for all us Bay Areans to > argue over: Second Thursday, 09 July 1998, 7:00 PM, El Paso Cafe, > 1407 W El Camino Real, Mountain View. Y'all can flame me about Can't guarantee I'll be there, but it sounds good in theory. btw, Bruce Lane (iirc -- I'm lousy at names and don't pay too much attention to headers & .sigs anyway) will be in town (SF) soon, if y'all wanna try and coordinate something. (Also a visit to HMR is in order.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 12 months

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Loss of early UCSD P-System materials...

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Ha. You think that you're funny, don't you? At my ex-school, I fount 30(!) Apple ][GS's, a ][C, A WHOLE BUNCH of books, around 250 disks, lots of lab interface software, Grapler interfaces, etc. Pretty cool. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: kroma <kroma(a)worldnet.att.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... > >>>Subject: UCSD Pascal >>> >>>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch stuff, >>>old tapes, etc. which were trashed because no one wanted them. I'll look >>>around here and see if there's anything left. >> > > > >OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!! > > >

27 years, 12 months

2
1
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Macintoshes...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the >smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes >light grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds >and then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this >way for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this >normal? Definitely not. Try starting with extensions off (hold down the shift key up until it shows that screen). Normal boot on a Classic should be under a minute. >Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one >apparently does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on >PCs... the other one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go >away and be replaced by one which lookes the same (banner background) >but with a '>' sign... > >What is this? > You're right about the salute, the second one is a debug button. The > sign is a prompt, at which you can look at memory and stuff. Typing 'G FIND' will jump to the finder if it is running, which it isn't yet on your system. The finder is a shell like command.com. It is completely modular and can be replaced by another program, though not common. BTW, how much did you pay for it? > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | >| Digital Equipment Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

1
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IBM RS6000 for sale

by transit＠primenet.com

I found this on another list I'm on. Is this of any interest to anyone here? (If so, please contact the original poster directly. Thanks) ----------------begin forwarded message--------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:39:03 -0700 From: Nathan Schwartz <nathan(a)apl.acsc.net> To: Multiple recipients of list <web4lib(a)library.berkeley.edu> Subject: RS6000 IBM RS6000 for sale http://www.acsc.net/apl/rs6000.htm The Anderson Public Library has an RS6000 that we are interested in selling. This system was purchased from Dynix Library Services in 1991 and has the following features. RS6000 RISC 520/20 processor, AIX 3.3, 2.4Gigs on four drives, 128Meg RAM, 2-64 port controllers, 2.3Gig 8mm Tape, 150MB 1/4 tape, Ethernet High Performance LAN Adapter, IBM Printer 4224, Emerson UPS AP130sb, Muxes, cables and documentation. $4,000 O.B.O. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit(a)primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 12 months

2
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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

>>It certainly has been (and will continue to be) for me... >>But seriously, since my workshop isn't open to the public, and almost >>nobody knows who I am, where should %random_person go to find out >>about real front panels, forerunners of Windows, etc. If not a science >>museum, then where? > The local public library. Get a comfy chair, sit in front of the > terminal, call up lynx, get a hotmail account, and subscribe to the > mailing list. Of course, if the library has some back issues of computer > magazines or computer history books, those never hurt either ;) A museum > is generally considered to be a 'fun place' and though it is possible > to learn quite a bit, they can't beat reading a good book (though they > are a visual compendium). Hmm I think you should come to Munich and visit the Deutsches Museum. A slow walk thru the chemical section (for example) could tell you the same story than a book, but you will also _see_ whats hapening when two chemicals mix up. You still have to read - there is plenty of text ro read - sometimes the equivalent of 5 or 6 book pages only for one show case, and ar far as I remember the chemical section has more than 100 of this hands on cases. Shure, tunning thru and press every butten wont result in any information - but just browsing thru a chemical book either. > BTW, the Boston Computer Museum has a very > good history section. Books like 'A Secret Guide To Computers' also > educate quite a bit. Lastly, since you're so worried about this (we all > are, I hope) why not just write a book? :) - Hereby I oder one copy. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

1
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Macintoshes...

by franke＠sbs.de

> >there are only two kinds of mac mouses: 9 pin for plus and earlier and adb > for > >se and later models. i've never heard of anything else. as for slow booting, > Offtopic by about 10 years: > We just got in a Motorola 603e StarMax mac clone a few months ago at work. > I loved this machine! It had both ADB connectors AND PS/2 style connectors. > It also had a standard DB25 serial port connector on it. IMHO, this would > have been a good step for Apple to make say about 5 or 6 years ago. Apple is just doing this step in a far better direction: They change to USB (at least thats what they told us at WWDC) and the iMac is the first to excange ADB for USB. Not using PS/2 wasn't so bad at all - ADB is a lot more convienient since I connect the mouse to the kbd nut the cpu. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

1
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Loss of early UCSD P-System materials...

by kroma＠worldnet.att.net

>>Subject: UCSD Pascal >> >>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch stuff, >>old tapes, etc. which were trashed because no one wanted them. I'll look >>around here and see if there's anything left. > OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!!

27 years, 12 months

1
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macs and IDE drives...

by franke＠sbs.de

> this isn't really "classic" per se, but... It's the classic Mac-IDE question. And the answer is simple no. > I grabbed a performa 636cd, w/ a 500mb ide drive. being curious i > ripped out the 1-connector ide cable and connected a 2-connector; the > mac ide quantum (which specifically says "apple" on it...) was set as > master, and i popped a seagate on as a slave. no boot unless i popped in > the mac disk tools. if i take off the 2nd ide drive, it boots. being a > total mac idiot, is it even possible to use a ATA ide drive on a mac? or > is there something else to this that i'm missing? any help would be > gratefully appreciated. thanks. Yes_and_no to all questions. It's just that Apple only suports one _one_ IDE drive. Almost any drive work correctly, but you need third party setup software like HDT. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by higginbo＠netpath.net

At 12:35 AM 6/25/98 -0500, Uncle Roger wrote: >Mac IIx - 68030? >Mac IIfx >Mac IIvx (iirc) I'm not sure about the IIvx either, but I do have a Mac IIx sitting here. Main difference was just a little boost on the proc speed over the Mac II. Question: Will any nubus card work in any mac with a nubus slot? (I'm talking standard form, one piece card, not the little two piece connected jobbies found on the SI/LC etc.) - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

27 years, 12 months

1
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Macintoshes...

by higginbo＠netpath.net

At 10:54 PM 6/24/98 EDT, SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com wrote: >there are only two kinds of mac mouses: 9 pin for plus and earlier and adb for >se and later models. i've never heard of anything else. as for slow booting, Offtopic by about 10 years: We just got in a Motorola 603e StarMax mac clone a few months ago at work. I loved this machine! It had both ADB connectors AND PS/2 style connectors. It also had a standard DB25 serial port connector on it. IMHO, this would have been a good step for Apple to make say about 5 or 6 years ago. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

27 years, 12 months

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Macintoshes...

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

there are only two kinds of mac mouses: 9 pin for plus and earlier and adb for se and later models. i've never heard of anything else. as for slow booting, you might want to run disk first aid if you have it on your machine. i think you need to boot off a floppy and run it from there for it to check and fix any problems it finds. those two buttons you found is the programmer's switch. one does a reboot and the other brings you to a system monitor prompt. supposedly useful for those that know what to do. david In a message dated 98-06-24 21:43:32 EDT, megan writes: << Speaking of Mac Mice... At the MIT Flea this past weekend, I picked up a mouse for the Mac Classic I mentioned in other mail... it is the 'original' style of apple mouse. My question is whether this will work correctly with the Mac Classic -- it does seem to plug in, but since I'm not getting much response from the system, I don't know... BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes light grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds and then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this way for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this normal? Have I simply not allowed the system adequate time to boot to a user screen? (I'm used to an RT system which boots in about 30-45 seconds, depending on amount of memory). Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one apparently does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on PCs... the other one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... What is this? >>

27 years, 12 months

2
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Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 02:40 PM 6/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >about it. But we invest time and money and passion into this hobby, and I >don't think its wrong to take advantage of a good deal when one comes In the long run, it probably offsets the times we spend more than we should to make sure something important isn't destroyed (including paying for storage units, etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 12 months

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new additions, info wanted

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:43 PM 6/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >I'll trade it for an Altair and an Apple 1 and most importantly, one of those rare >black AppleIIplus's. Oh sure, I gots lots of those... 8^) >What the heck is a FlatCat (uh oh, me thinks I just set myself up here). Laptop version of the Cat. >It doesn't have cursor keys, or a pointing device. It uses these two 'leap' keys Yeah, that's it. Pretty cool. >Let me know when you get the Apple 1 and I'll dig the Cat out and send it to >you :) Ummm,, you don't mind if there's a little bit of white-out spilled next to where it says "Apple ]" do you? 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 12 months

1
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NeXT cubes or slabs.

by gim＠hitec-uk.com

Who do I have to kill? Are they so black you can see your reflection in them? :) Grant.. Software Engineer, Hitec Aberdeen. Kevan Heydon <kevan(a)heydon.org> on 06/26/98 04:47:49 PM Please respond to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> cc: Subject: Re: NeXT cubes or slabs. Speaking of NeXTs, I have just got a lead on some available in the UK. The mail I got is: Unconfirmed reports are that I may be able to lay my hands on, like, TWENTY NeXT slabs for the princely sum of 70 quid each. My mind immediately turns to CamNet and the denizens within as sinks for such wonderful but antique hardware. Note that if you want a 17" colour monitor, then that is at the ultimate ripoff price of another 60 quid. Both figures EXCLUDE VAT at the usual rate, apparently. Machine specs are: TurboColour NeXTStation. 68040/33 / 32MB / 500MB SCSI + Keyboard + Mouse + Soundbox. (as black as, like, the blackest thing - none more black) (1138x932@12bit) Monitors: NeXT MegaPixel Colour Monitors (Black cool case) 17" @ 60 quid 21" @ 150 quid If you are interested then drop me an email and I will coordinate things with the person I got this email from. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/

27 years, 12 months

1
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Mark 8 pc boards

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Today I found the company, Techniques, Inc. in Englewood, New Jersey, that made the printed circuit boards for the "Radio Electronics" Mark 8 computer. They are in the same location as in 1973. Afaik, they have no web site or email. I called them to ask if they could look for any material, or any information, like how many board sets were made or sold. I found nothing. They first thought that "Mark 8 microcomputer" was the name of another company. I finally found someone who said the company was bought in 1987, and that all information before then was gone. I've also learned that the printed circuit boards were 2-sided, but had no plated-thru holes. This may have caused problems to IC solder connections, making reliability problems. I don't know if this would make buyers abandon them making the numbers larger or smaller than otherwise. -Dave

27 years, 12 months

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macs and IDE drives...

by poesie＠geocities.com

this isn't really "classic" per se, but... I grabbed a performa 636cd, w/ a 500mb ide drive. being curious i ripped out the 1-connector ide cable and connected a 2-connector; the mac ide quantum (which specifically says "apple" on it...) was set as master, and i popped a seagate on as a slave. no boot unless i popped in the mac disk tools. if i take off the 2nd ide drive, it boots. being a total mac idiot, is it even possible to use a ATA ide drive on a mac? or is there something else to this that i'm missing? any help would be gratefully appreciated. thanks. -Eric

27 years, 12 months

1
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Early speech board maker?

by fmc＠reanimators.org

John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> wrote: > Here's an excerpt of a posting that triggered my IMSAI smart agent. > Does anyone recognize his name, or the company he's describing? > From: Wirt Atmar <WirtAtmar(a)AOL.COM> Yes. Your next step on the road to enlightenment is to webulate to http://www.aics-research.com/history.html and follow the next-page links through to the end. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 12 months

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CoCo III at garage sale...

by poesie＠geocities.com

Found this on usenet, don't know if any of you like that CoCO stuff. just thought i'd pass it along. please reply to him directly. -Eric ><osc1(a)isd.net> > Tandy CoCo sets. One is a box of rare CoCo stuff: books (fiction books > CoCo based, how-to program books, manuals, catalogs etc), connectors (I > don't even recall what half of them are), lots of cartridges (games, > etc), all fairly rare and cool. The other set is a CoCo III, with a > couple of joysticks, and five could game carts... a mini TV included! > Each set is $20. > > > Thanks, > Carty Fox > St. Paul, MN <osc1(a)isd.net>

27 years, 12 months

3
3
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IMSAI 8080

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >> be backed up. > > Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem > that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, > althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write > anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). > > So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed > lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some > PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are > 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then try > to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? > This sould be reliable, since it is human readable > (Like old magnetic tapes). Paper tape, of course! There is an action on me from this list last year (I think) to investigate the possibility of Tyvek tapes. I still intend to do it, but I don't know when! Philip.

27 years, 12 months

3
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ID select on scsi disks

by mbg＠world.std.com

This past weekend, I picked up a few cases for SCSI disks... they have a device on the back panel which allows one to select the SCSI id by just pushing one of two buttons until the proper ID shows... I've used a VOM to figure out which wires from this thing are what, but the connector it same with is not compatible with the (as far as I can tell) standard of three sets of jumper-width pins. I'd like to button this thing up so I don't have to open it again (except to replace a bad disk) but can't find anything which fits the spacing of these pins... For those for whom this info would be useful in telling the spacing, the disks are RZ35s (from DEC). I don't know who actually produces them. Any help appreciated... My next plan is to try one of the inter-board connectors (one board has a socket and one has pins)... the socket connector seems to have proper spacing, but I've yet to actualy try it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 12 months

2
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Loss of early UCSD P-System materials...

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Here's an excerpt of an e-mail I received recently from an admin at the UCSD computing center, where the UCSD P-System was developed. Ken Bowles was one of the primary forces behind the P-System, and wrote an early popular Pascal text. - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm> >Subject: UCSD Pascal > >Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch stuff, >old tapes, etc. which were trashed because no one wanted them. I'll look >around here and see if there's anything left.

27 years, 12 months

1
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Early speech board maker?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Here's an excerpt of a posting that triggered my IMSAI smart agent. Does anyone recognize his name, or the company he's describing? - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm> Subject: Re: WRQ's @Guard From: Wirt Atmar <WirtAtmar(a)AOL.COM> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:07:56 EDT Message-ID: <3dda660e.358c088e(a)aol.com> Mailing List: HP3000-L(a)utcvm.utc.edu .... Just because something is possible doesn't mean that anybody's gonna want it. The very first business that AICS was involved in was computer-based speech synthesis. Indeed, that's where our name comes from (AICS = artificially intelligent cybernetic systems). The company grew out of something that had previously been just a hobby of mine -- and a potential dissertation project for graduate school: completely host-based speed synthesis, de novo, where an electrical analog of the human vocal tract was commanded to truly synthesize new speech rather than simply play back digitized human speech. In 1976, when I finished school and the company was formed, we actually made a lot of money surprisingly easily and surprising quickly selling speech synthesizers as drop-in boards for Altair and IMSAI microcomputers. That was a time you could sell anybody anything. Every conference was a feeding frenzy of buying. You threw something up in the air and ten people wanted it. In 1976 also, when I became a professor at our local university, several students also continued on with the speech synthesis work. Vickie Kurtz, a person who you actually sort of know because she is more or less single- handedly putting together QCTerm now, did her master's work with me then. For her thesis, Vickie put together the best vowel synthesizer that I ever heard, using voltage-controlled oscillators, controlled by a simple rom-based finite state automaton so as to simulate the mechanical inertias found in the vocal tract. Although her synthesizer didn't have any sort of noise generator in it, so it couldn't form the fricatives (hiss-like sounds) necessary for full speech synthesis, its vowels were the most human-like I've ever heard and were essentially indistinguishable from a baby's babbling or cat-like animal. Vickie finished in 1982. A year or two earlier, Texas Instruments got into speech synthesis in a big way using a technique halfway between digitized speech and speech synthesis, a process that might now be called "smoothed sampling". It worked much better than true synthesis in that its intelligiblity was quite good. Because of that, TI was able to sell a variety of manufacturers on the idea of having talking washing machines, microwave ovens, vaccuum cleaners, etc. The most expensive of these talking machines was the Chrysler LeBaron automobile -- and people (the end-users, not the engineers) found all of this incredibly irritating. The single most requested option on the LeBaron, by far and away, was to have the speech generator deleted. Talking appliances were a technological fad that lasted only about three years, 1979-1982. ... Wirt Atmar

27 years, 12 months

1
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Xerox Daybreak

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> wrote: > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > IIRC, the Star had both a custom microcoded CPU and had an 8080 (or 8085) > > to handle I/O. > > I believe 8080 is correct (remember, the design was started in the 1975 > timeframe, but did extend into 1981 when it was released). The 8085 is > circa 1976. Why didn't I take better notes!? ;) Yeah, me too. But this is where I stopped: it was an 8085. ... The Star presentation was certainly well attended -- it was packed to overflowing! I was out in the lobby watching the presentation on a monitor, and apparently there were other folks watching other monitors in the cafeteria. Anyway, that is why I gave up on notes -- couldn't concentrate on the palmtop keyboard and the monitor at the same time. Afterward a bunch of us did get together outside the auditorium lobby, Uncle Roger tried to make me hold up a classiccmp sign, I tried waving my appendages a bit whenever I saw someone I recognized, and somehow I think we completely missed Rax. Sorry about that, Rax. I will try to plan better next time. So who was there? Roger Sinasohn, Rachel ? (Uncle Roger's girlfriend -- the schoolteacher who is always on the lookout for Macs), Doug Yowza, Doug Coward, Paul Coad, Sam Ismail, Edwin El-Kareh, and y'r humble narrator. Stuff was swapped, stories were exchanged, we moved to the parking lot, yakked some more, then security came around, someone made the mistake of asking me where to go and I suggested the El Paso Cafe in Mountain View. (Hey, I know *I* can get some good cheap eats there.) Notes: (a) At least some of us seem to want to do this get-together thing again. Of course we did not reach any consensus w/r/t time and date as Roger now wants to check and see whether his tap dancing lessons collide. (b) We need to start earlier, 9:00 PM is late for dinner and the El Paso closes at 10:00. Other places close earlier than that. (c) So...fine, here's a time and place for all us Bay Areans to argue over: Second Thursday, 09 July 1998, 7:00 PM, El Paso Cafe, 1407 W El Camino Real, Mountain View. Y'all can flame me about this in public or private, and I'm still open to change, but I want to announce the real time and place on 30 June. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 12 months

4
3
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IMSAI 8080

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 05:55 PM 24-06-98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >CD-ROMs have the advantage that they are far more widespread than any of >the above disks ever dreamed to be. They are world standards, as oppossed >to company-specific standards. With the music industry behind them, >CD-ROMs will be around for a long time. Indeed, and with DVD being able to read CDs you'd expect no difficulty in reading CDs for the next 20 years or so. I'd certainly want to be able to listen to my music CDs for that sort of time-span. In fact, with the number of CDs I have, if I listened to a couple a week, it'd take 20 years :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"

27 years, 12 months

1
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Macintoshes...

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 24, 23:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > > So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? > > > Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? Not for the keyboard, it uses 8 data bits with no start/stop/parity bits and a separate clock; XT keyboards use 8 data bits with 2 start bits, 1 make/break bit, and a stop bit; AT/PS2 keyboards use 1 start bit, 8 data bits, 1 parity bit, 1 stop bit. > > null modem enclosure). The keyboard is Mac proprietary. > > Yes, it's _strange_. 4 wires, +5V, Data, Clock, Ground. The mac end uses > the shift register in a 6522, the keyboard end uses a microcontroller > (8021?). Given a keyboard the protocol is probably hackable with a logic > analyser (future project?), Yes, it is an 8021. The protocol is in "Inside Macintosh", Vol. III pp30-32. It's fairly simple, though it's bi-directional. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 12 months

2
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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>It certainly has been (and will continue to be) for me... > >But seriously, since my workshop isn't open to the public, and almost >nobody knows who I am, where should %random_person go to find out >about real front panels, forerunners of Windows, etc. If not a science >museum, then where? >-tony The local public library. Get a comfy chair, sit in front of the terminal, call up lynx, get a hotmail account, and subscribe to the mailing list. Of course, if the library has some back issues of computer magazines or computer history books, those never hurt either ;) A museum is generally considered to be a 'fun place' and though it is possible to learn quite a bit, they can't beat reading a good book (though they are a visual compendium). BTW, the Boston Computer Museum has a very good history section. Books like 'A Secret Guide To Computers' also educate quite a bit. Lastly, since you're so worried about this (we all are, I hope) why not just write a book? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

2
2
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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>>>>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >>>>> be backed up. >>>> Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem >>> On paper tape, of course. It's reliable (I've never found a tape that >>> can't be read), human-readable, and the automatic readers are simple >>> enough to be repairable... >> Jep. Good choice - I still have some paper tabes from the mid >> 70s in fine condition - but I also know (remembering the past) >> how fast they break... > Paper tapes can be spliced if they break (did I mention I had a splicing > jig and tapes here...). An a good reader shouldn't break the tape anyway. > As an aside, paper tape holes are at 0.1" spacing. You can make a > useable splicing jig by soldering a row of pins to a piece of stripboard > (say at 0.3" spacing), and using those to hold the sprocket track on the > tape. So, what you tellin' me ? I've been in the repair business for these devices some time around 1980 *grin* >>>> So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed >>>> lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >>>> PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >>>> 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical >>> You can pack a lot of ROM dumps on a 1600bpi magtape.... >> Shure, but 1600 BpI is the first density not readable >> to humans. Again insecure. > But some 1600bpi drives are _always_ repairable. And the format is > sufficiently well documented that a drive could always be made. Almost, yes, and for the formats also yes - but not the media. I had even new taps failing to record. >>>> Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >>>> EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS >>> Never!. I'd not trust an EPROM to last longer than 10 years. Nor any >>> other chip for that matter. Sure, a lot of them will, but some won't. And >>> if it's the last copy in the world, you've got problems. >> EPROMS are a real lot more reliable than any other media. > I've had EPROMs fail. I've had floppy disks fail. Never had a 9-track > tape fail, though. Never really lost any data because I've had it backed > up... Maybe just our different past - I have seen almost any kind of magnetic media fail but never EPROMS. >> And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >> Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. > Oh, I don't know. I've managed to play 1960's reel-to-reel audio tapes > (and early 19790's video tapes, reel and cassette) with no real > problems. If you pick a suitably redundant format for the data I suspect > it'll be OK. Managed to play and recovering all information are different things. And back to CDs (to reunite the two threads): Theres a huge difference between your listed magnetic things and CDs - the music sector - I bet any summ you want that there will be new drives in 20 years from now, able to read a CD made today (if the CD contend isn't damaged of course). I'm not talking about any specific drive of today - your right - its even dificult to get a custom chip just 2.5 years after the drive. Its about drives that are _able_ to read the backup medias. And for Zip - you're also right - I think, like you, that Zip or syquests will be forgotten in less than 15 years (for _new_ installments). Serus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

2
1
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New e-mail address

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Sorry for this administrivia, but if anyone cares I posted a new e-mail address a short while ago. Please disregard this address. My primary e-mail address still remains dastar(a)wco.com, and you may also e-mail me at sam(a)siconic.com or though the Vintage Computer Festival web pages (http://www.siconic.com/vcf). Again, sorry for the interruption. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98]

27 years, 12 months

1
0
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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

> On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: >> <Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem >> <that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, >> <althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write >> <anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). >> Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape. > Better, I think, as with disks you need not be concerned with layer to > layer adhesion or layer to layer transfer. Maybe I shoud take some damaged 5,25" disks to the VCF to show the effects of fd aging. It's a real mess when the magnetic surface is tearing down. I have dozends of deffect _mecanical_ disks and already ruined five drives - and it took me about 6 hours (and one damaged head) to clean one and get it back working. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

2
1
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Paper floppy disk

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Below is a description of the "paper floppy disk" as given by an old friend of mine, Dennis Adams <DAdams(a)etcconnect.com>, who once worked on this technology. - John The "Paper Floppy Disk" Newslog International (aka Lab1) developed technology for recording up to 30-50K of data on a printed piece of cardstock approximately 6" x 4". The data was recorded with error detection and correction information (Reed-Soloman, I believe), as well as redundant groups, so it could withstand misprints, marks, holes, and other flaws. This was all pre-CD, and the cost was very cheap. One of the names for them was TDB's for Transportable Databases. They were intended for software distribution, database updates, games on the back of cereal boxes, etc. Each track was a portion of a circle (about 1/10 of the circumference). The reader had a large (approx. 14") spinning wheel, and supported variable track pitch and data bits per inch (so different quality paper and printing processes could be supported), and could track media that was not cut square by skewing the tray that held the media (since there was no physical or optical "center" on the media -- it had a virtual movable "hole" to spin on). It used a Z80 microprocessor (running extremely tweaked assembly language by Al Jewer) and interfaced to a computer via "high-speed" RS-232 (9600 bps). I did demo software on a variety of hosts, including the Storm operating system (multi-user CP/M OS by Ron Fowler, also the author of the popular MEX communications software), Commodore 64, and IBM-PC XT. We had a Coleco Adam computer that we briefly considered writing something for, but it never stayed running long enough to evaluate. We did a multi-month trial of a large database update for a large company based in Moline. We sent out three months of updates to a 13M database. Each update was a half-dozen or so cards that could be scanned in any order and then the update was applied to the database. This was run at three dealerships that could retrieve up-to-date database information much faster than their microfiche system which was always out-of-date. It also displayed additional textual information that was on other microfiche or books and not usually referenced. This was circa 1985, and was quite impressive to the people who used it. So much so that the actual media technology took a back seat to the database system itself (an interesting lesson to be learned there). Newslog / Lab1 ran out of money before the technology could be completely finished and sold or marketed. Not that they didn't try. I learned a lot about "demos" and "demospeak" while I worked there. I still have some media around, but alas no reader. I'm willing to bet it could be read by a modern high-res scanner. An energetic soul could probably even write a reader emulator that fed the bits that it peeled radially from the high-res scan into the actual Z80 reader code to decode it. The best anecdote I recall regarding the technology was in the "camera" software that generated the film original used for duplication: the base unit of measurement was derived from the bits-per-track and camera wheel speed and other factors I've forgotten. All of the internal calculations were based on this "tick", which varied in actual length, but was approximately 1mS. The camera system's author was Bill Whitford, and the unit of measurement henceforth became known as a "willisecond." Bill's code ran on a much larger processor with a lot of memory (I think it might have been a 4Mhz Z80 with 64K of memory), so he development in C.

27 years, 12 months

3
2
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Macintoshes...

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

This is roundabout. I work at an ISP. I have to figure out how to work a Macintosh, so as to explain to customers how to set theirs up. This sounds reasonable - so the salesguy produces a Mac SE. Unfortunately, it has no mouse or keyboard. SO I go about looking around. Can't afford $90 for a mouse and keyboard that the only-Mac-shop-in-town has, so I go looking for used stuff. I turn up a Macintosh 512K (Sadly abused. The people KEPT IT IN THE GARAGE SO TI WOULDN'T GIVE THEIR VCR A COMPUTER VIRUS.) Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could spread thru the power lines. :) More information on either box would be appreciated... -------

27 years, 12 months

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Macintoshes...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

But a mouse is a mouse, isn't it? I think it is possible to adapt a PC mouse to a mac...not the keyboard, though. There was a site on the net dealing with these things, but I think it might be gone. It would be much easier for the plus, btw, since it doesn't use ADB >Sorry, this is mac! you cant adapt pc stuff for this. the se and >later use ADB, with mini-din connectors. plus and earlier use a db9 >style mouse and phone cord keyboard. i doubt either can be adapted. >id love to find some mac plus keyboards and mouses so i can sell a >bunch of macs i have myself. > >In a message dated 98-06-24 14:05:01 EDT, you write: > ><< Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. > > So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? > Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? > > As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could > spread thru the power lines. :) >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

>>like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe >>similar things in one space, without any description or system. > The system appeals to kids who enjoy running around and pushing buttons. > The fact that 'the big dig' was next to ship models were next to trains > and cars were next to stuff about DNA does make me wonder... Big dig ? Oh sorry - did I mix up the name ? >>The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without >>proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter >>if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special > Has anyone been to the Boston Museum of Natural History? Now _that_ is > well organised and old fashioned. Endless rooms of glass cases with > everything imaginable (The New York one is considerably less > informative). Thank - I put it on my to-do list. Where is ist located ? Easy to find ? Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Macintoshes...

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

Sorry, this is mac! you cant adapt pc stuff for this. the se and later use ADB, with mini-din connectors. plus and earlier use a db9 style mouse and phone cord keyboard. i doubt either can be adapted. id love to find some mac plus keyboards and mouses so i can sell a bunch of macs i have myself. In a message dated 98-06-24 14:05:01 EDT, you write: << Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could spread thru the power lines. :) >>

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >>> be backed up. >> Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem > On paper tape, of course. It's reliable (I've never found a tape that > can't be read), human-readable, and the automatic readers are simple > enough to be repairable... Jep. Good choice - I still have some paper tabes from the mid 70s in fine condition - but I also know (remembering the past) how fast they break... >> So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed >> lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >> PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >> 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > You can pack a lot of ROM dumps on a 1600bpi magtape.... Shure, but 1600 BpI is the first density not readable to humans. Again insecure. >> Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >> EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS > Never!. I'd not trust an EPROM to last longer than 10 years. Nor any > other chip for that matter. Sure, a lot of them will, but some won't. And > if it's the last copy in the world, you've got problems. EPROMS are a real lot more reliable than any other media. >> (real one not EPROMS without window) should live even > All chips fail. Bond-outs break, the chip itself fails, etc. And some > fusible link devices suffer from a problem where the fuses grow back. > I've never seen it myself, but it happens (I've read books on it). And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. >> longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - >> it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or >> 2708 not already needed for an old computer. > Wait a second. Nobody is suggesting that (a) you don't keep the EPROM > you've backed up - or indeed that you don't keep using it, or (b) that > you don't stock up on components now. But in 20 years time, it'll be a > lot easier to repair a <whatever> given a ROM dump - even if you have to > kludge in the latest multi-megabit EPROM - than without it. I'm not interested in the backup, or the content - I just want to have the particular computer, depending on the content of the ROM, running. So the backup is just a tool, but it has to be reliable for long time to reduce backup strategie time. I found EPROMS running well for 20 years in environments where a disk wont survive 1 day. And of course yes, I already have a small component stock including some 'new' EPROMS from 256 Bytes to 64K (2KBit ... 512KBit). Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> But there's no way I can afford a Lisa at the current collector's prices. >>> So, alas, there's a gap in the collection :-( >> So, would you trade an Imsai 8080 for a Lisa 2? > If I had an Imsai, then yes, I would. The Lisa is a much more interesting > machine to me... :) Btw: I'm still looking for any genuine Xerox Star. I own two SIEMENS EMS 5800 class systems (5810 and 5822) - OEM Stars, but I like to add a 'real' one to them. And for your question - The Lisa is, compared to the Star like Windows 3.0 compared to a Macintosh. A cheap surogat. The differences arn't that big at first sight, but when working the wohle day just these 4 kesy on the left side are like switching from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Mercedes T. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Attache Altair??

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have made contact with an individual who has <what he describes as an Altair 8800 which is <in an "Attache" case made by Icom in 1976. Would <appreciate any information about this "Attache". <Is it a very desirable thing. Were very many produced, etc? < It has MITS <boards (CPU, IO, disk controller) and power suppy. <He wants to trade it to me for an Imsai 8800. <Would that be a good trade on my part? Bewary as to some people all small airplanes are Piper Cubs! It may not be MITS at all or only some. Calling it an ALTAIR means specifically one of four possible boxes all desktop sized (Altair 8800, the altair 8800B, the 8800B front pannel less version or the Altair680). Interesting. MITS never made a portable or toteable. At first I'd suspected it was an Ontrona Attache. However it's either home brew or someone used mits board and a commercial case. Is the disk controller a two board set (altair) or something else. I ask as the MITS boards were for 8" hard sector only and the likely board used would the single board Icom minifloppy (5.25") controller. Those 8" drives are huge! Find, yes it is. If anything for the altair boards. Good trade for IMSAI 8080, to my feelings no if you want to run it, Yes if you want to try and make money off it. I have an Altair and unless the boards are the 8800B series it's was cranky at best. The IMSAI has a good front pannel as well, important for the older software and systems. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

> Preserving data is not like preserving a paining, we dont care about the > image or the form as we can change it as needed. No, it's just the other way, if a painting is aging (beside real damage) nobody cares. The 'experts' even praise the quality - the best example is the Sistine Capel - Everybody told us that this dark thing was the intention, but now, after a closer look it reveals tat anything we had seen was aged 'till destruction thru smoke et.al. - after restauration this masterpeace is now rainbow coloured like a NYC garfity. Its the other way - we care about the content, an art galery doesn't care. They just want to have the thing. Especialy since the 'working' condition of an art thing isn't as easy to determinate as of an computer. > Photographic film has shown remarkable life, it's a possible media for > many decades. Only if you dont compare with an unaged copy (almost impossible :) But you could do a test - take a picture digitalize it and them wait 20 years (and keep your digital copy always readabe (I don't think I'll have to mention to preserve the equipment)). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe >similar things in one space, without any description or system. The system appeals to kids who enjoy running around and pushing buttons. The fact that 'the big dig' was next to ship models were next to trains and cars were next to stuff about DNA does make me wonder... >The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without >proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter >if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special Has anyone been to the Boston Museum of Natural History? Now _that_ is well organised and old fashioned. Endless rooms of glass cases with everything imaginable (The New York one is considerably less informative). >shows (like the 'Jurasic Park' exhibition or 'Boston Underground') >are made with a huge effort but only a little information to tell. >Maybe they are just no longer interestet in a general purpose (*G*) >museum and change to a theme park including merchandise ... Well, it DOES have to make money...but I agree that there is not that much info. e.g. there are many models of liquid fuel rockets, with light-up modules, and so forth, but nowhere is an explanation of how they work. >Gruss >H. > >Btw: They have (had ?) a nice hands on display about mechanics > (ropes and levers), made completely from wood (Again just > standing senseles without any proper guide ). Didn't see those, don't know. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What about phonographs? Do they last? (gives a new meaning to PROMs...) >And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Preserving data is not like preserving a paining, we dont care about the image or the form as we can change it as needed. Magnetic media, even CDrom are viable as they do have a known life that is adaquately long to permit copying to newer media every 10-15 years time. The only other choices that have a better life span do so only if they are carefully handled or more correctly not handled. FYI: punched paper tape; MYLAR is the current long time winner... even then it ages. Eproms, I'd trust the newer devices longer than say the 1702 or 2708 but the industry feels 20 years is about it. Assuming the device doesn't fail from say lead bond failure, metalization cracking, Oxide flaws, electromigration or other failure mechanisms common to chips. I must point out that those failure are nearly as likely as forgetting by 20 years. Since many of those failure modes exist in all ICs even if the eprom is good it's possible everything around could have failed. Photographic film has shown remarkable life, it's a possible media for many decades. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

> Incidentally, I spent a lot of time today in the Boston Science Museum. > They have some old models, even a functional steam engine, but also a > lot of hands on junk. Although kids do enjoy touching things and often > regard untouchable museums as boring, there is the issue of the > usefullness of the things, and even the issue of what knowledge we are > propagating to the children. Many of the exhibits were broken. The > robots exhibit had an arm shooting hoops. The worst it got was with the > model of the NASA Dante II robot. It was hands-on, all right: press the > up button to move a leg up, and the down button to move it down. Just > one leg. BTW, they had an early Amiga in one kiosk. At any rate, I was > kinda bored with so much floor space taken up by junk. The Boston Science Museum is an impressiv thing - or should be. I been there twice. Theoretical they could be a in competition with the Deutsches Museum, but in fact a lot displays look more like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe similar things in one space, without any description or system. The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special shows (like the 'Jurasic Park' exhibition or 'Boston Underground') are made with a huge effort but only a little information to tell. Maybe they are just no longer interestet in a general purpose (*G*) museum and change to a theme park including merchandise ... Gruss H. Btw: They have (had ?) a nice hands on display about mechanics (ropes and levers), made completely from wood (Again just standing senseles without any proper guide ). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>> And for your question - The Lisa is, compared to the Star >> like Windows 3.0 compared to a Macintosh. A cheap surogat. > I thought it would be, but I'd still like one. I'm a serious PERQ-fanatic > - PERQs were the first commerically sold workstations, based on the work > done at PARC, and are not a cheap _anything_. And I've got the Daybreak > and (of course) a Macintosh. So I'd like the missing machine in the line, > but not at the current price. I still like to trade one of my lisas :) >> The differences arn't that big at first sight, but when >> working the wohle day just these 4 kesy on the left side >> are like switching from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Mercedes T. > The hardware is, I think, very different. I would guess the Star was like > a PERQ internally (the Daybreak has a lot of similarities to the PERQ 1). I'm not talking about the Hardware - 'only' about th UI. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

Okay, since I was the person who started this firestorm of controversy, this is the last I will say about this issue. Let me begin by saying that I did not purchase this IMSAI when I had the opportunity for three reasons: 1. I didn't have $300 2. The machine, though historic, did nothing for me (I'll Explain) 3. I don't (in general) collect Intel. Not being into S-100 (I'm an SS-50 person, myself), the machine had little appeal to me. But I knew that there would be at least a few of you out there on this list who would be interested. So I posted it here, so some of our 'gang' could take a swing at it. The asking price _seemed_ fair, although I personally felt it was a tad high (more than _I_ would pay, anyway). What I figured would happen, some one would call, offer the guy $300, and that would be it. I had _no_ idea that this guy was gonna jack up the price into the stratusphere ($1,000 ? c'mon guys! Where's the enjoyment factor here?) Anyways, this chain of events was definitely _not_ my intention. Of course, the adage: "The road to Hell is paved grandest of good intentions" certainly applies here. I offer my most sincerest apologies for this debacle. Yes, I know, the deed is done, and it looks like a few of you out there have been hurt by this. I'm sorry. Had I known this was gonna happen, I'd a sent the guy to ebay. Further, I don't think I will be offering any more material that may be considered 'Investment Grade' (should I encounter any) in the future, and I would encourage others to do likewise. Private mail is better. If anyone has any gripes/comments, please address them directly to me: jeff.kaneko(a)ifrsys.com And let's give the mailing list back to our hobby, where it belongs. Thank you for your attention . . .. Jeff Kaneko +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > At 02:51 AM 6/20/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> For Sale: > >> > >> IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer > >[...] > >> Asking price: $300 > > > >After a round of email bidding, the seller sez: > >> IT SOLD FOR $1000. THAMKS FOR THE RESPONSE. > > > >Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff > >directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online > >auction. The last IMSAI that sold on eBay went for around $650, I think. > > > >FWIW, > >Doug (still IMSAI-less) > > Well... while it may not improve the price, it may improve the audience... > B^} > > While trying to NOT reignite another flame war (which I probably contribute > to), the qualifier on this idea might be that when you post something, post > it with an acceptable price. IMHO that should not be a difficult > proposition for someone who is looking for a good home for a piece of > equipment. If you are just going to relocate an auction, then you are > probably only in it for the money! (boy, am I gonna get yelled at for THAT > one) > > What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more > often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in > the last month) > > Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with > a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I > find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide > shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has > received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as > an opportunity for further response. > > Now, maybe it is just me... But from my view when responded with a counter > to my offer, we were in the midst of transacting a deal and I should have > 'right of first refusal' until the point that either we make the deal or I > decide I don't want it. > > I don't appreciate multi-thread dealing going on without being informed. > And it was not like there were any extended delays between these messages. > The entire series of exchanges occurred over less than 24 hours. Very > similar for the second occurrance I mentioned above... > > BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!) > > -jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...) > > --- > jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > > >

27 years, 12 months

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available 8" disks

by yaksaken＠hkstar.com

HI Allison: ...... It means.... I still can't take some from you.... Err... BTW, if possible, you can give me your full name and the snail address, I will send you a bank draft.... You can ship the discs to me after you received the bank draft, okej? Yours, Ken Yaksa > <May I have few blank disks from you too...?? I live in Hong Kong, and I > <discover that I never can find 8" disks in my location! :( If so, I woul > <pay the shipping... :) > < > <Yours, > <Ken Yaksa > > OK, here's the scoop. > > 1) I don't want to ship if I don't have to. > 2) I'd really rather not ship international > > No one is interrested in paying me to package them to ship. Even with > free boxes and wadded up newpaper as padding it's still my time and tape. > > 3) the games disks... that was an unfortunate inclusion and the number > of disks that represents is small compared to the SIGM and CPMUG portion > which is some 300 or so. The rest are belived blank, or what have you > on them. > > 3a) the cpmug and SIGM disks are all on the WCcdrom and simtel, I feel > no guilt dumping them as it's not like they are anywhere near the last on > earth. They are more useful as media of if you have a 8" cpm system > convenient. > > 4) they are all CP/M sssd though some may be ssdd. > > 5) local pickup prefered. > > > Allison

27 years, 12 months

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Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080)

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

> >So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed > I suggest real CD-ROMs The 'real' ones can be expensive to master . . . > >lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some > >PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are > >900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > >medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then > >try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? > >This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like > >old magnetic tapes). > > I think paper is the best option. It shouldn't be a big deal to print a > hex dump for a 20-K program with a line printer. Just make sure it's Teflon, or Tyvek based paper (if such things exist), using some very high-tech ink/toner most modern papers (that I know of) have a finite shelf-life. Now papryrus-- that's rugged! S.L. = Several millenia > >Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ > >EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS > >(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even > >longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - > > What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? ^^^^^^^^^ Eeeek! Is this guy crazy? It would have to be stuck in carbon-loaded foam, and kept in a Faraday-cage container (metallized stat bags, or similar). > That should keep IR out... IR would be the LEAST or your worries. Now if you're a follower of Erich von Dainken, :-) you could inscribe your source in Gold leaves, as certain pre-pre-columbian 'civilizations' supposedly have done. Your assembly code will then be forever immortalized for future generations to puzzle over. Who knows? It may even become an object of worship . . . . <Tongue now removed from cheek> Jeff +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 12 months

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Convergent Miscellany

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

<Stuff about Convergent Heavy Iron SNIPPED> > Convergent Technologies of San Jose California built a number of Unix > and other platforms, most of which were OEMed by other companies -- > NCR, Burroughs, Sperry, AT&T are the most prevalent. A few years > after Burroughs and Sperry merged into Unisys, they bought Convergent, > so I'm an ex-Unisys person since I got there a year later. Anything > you find running CTOS or CTIX is a Convergent box -- the AT&T Unix PC ^^^^^^^^^^ > ran CTIX, though the name didn't show up on screen. Convergent's ^^^^ OKay, so what happened to the source for CTIX? Did it vanish? Who does it belong to? WHo do you think I belongs to? Just Curious-- Jeff > 68xxx systems included the Miniframe and the Megaframe that later > evolved into the Convergent S-Series and the Unisys 5000 series. > (When I was there I got stuck on the damned U/6000 series, with > bloody Intel CPUs and ISA buses). > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > > >

27 years, 12 months

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Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Just make sure it's Teflon, or Tyvek based paper (if such things <exist), using some very high-tech ink/toner most modern papers (that <I know of) have a finite shelf-life. Now papryrus-- that's rugged! <S.L. = Several millenia Not a big thing, use a low acid archival paper intended for that use. Also the printing should be done using an impact technology, it puts the ink deeper into the fibers. Ink jet would be good save for the ink stability is unknown, I'd suspect it's good though. Toners are wax resin based and while storage life is good it's not great. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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Not really on-topic haiku

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

A Win95 Haiku Yesterday, it worked Today it is not working Windows is like that (found in the local newspaper :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98]

27 years, 12 months

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LCD DIsplay for Allison

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From: Robert Kirk Scott <scottk5(a)ibm.net> <Don't know if this will work for you, but I knew I had seen something <like it somewhere....took a while to track it down. On page 2 of their <online catalog, BGMicro (www.bgmicro.com) has a LM 211 by Hitachi: <480x64 dot pixel display, comes with drivers but no controller, +5v and <-9v supply recommended supply voltages, part no. LCD1008, cost...$3.50. Close but no cookie... the DELL mono/VGA (640x480) LCD came from BG also. The lm211 display is very nice but we're talking 40charx8 and I want 80x24 minimum, Graphics not needed. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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Not really on-topic haiku

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-06-23 22:09:20 EDT, you write: << A Win95 Haiku Yesterday, it worked Today it is not working Windows is like that (found in the local newspaper :) >> lol. i have a bunch more. message me privately if you want em. david

27 years, 12 months

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Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Sorry, I guess it would degrade, wouldn't it... <Why DO EPROMs go bad? Eprom technology relies on a stored electrostatic charge. The gate structure it uses as a capacitor is insulated with (SIO2) glass so its very high resistance but over time it can absorb mosture and the charge can leak off. UV accelerates that as do xrays and cosmic rays. The Xrays, this I know from erasing OTPs back when. I hadd help from a site were they were using industrial xray hardware on pipes. They thought I was nuts until I explaned that the parts were then worth about 25$ a peice and I have maybe 100 with me. The problem with OTPs is they are plastic and are not hermetic. The best for storage are the two slabs of ceramic types with kovar header or IBMs titainium/ceramic package. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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MacWorks has old mac systems for more or less free... *shrug*

by poesie＠geocities.com

http://www.macworks.com/html/computers.html have old systems for "free", although there is a $25 handling 'fee' to make sure everything is inside. and if you're not in the kansas city area, there's 25 for shipping too. so they're not free, but i thought i'd just mention it if anyone for some strange reason is interested. -Eric

27 years, 12 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by poesie＠geocities.com

Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. -Eric

27 years, 12 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Incidentally, I spent a lot of time today in the Boston Science Museum. They have some old models, even a functional steam engine, but also a lot of hands on junk. Although kids do enjoy touching things and often regard untouchable museums as boring, there is the issue of the usefullness of the things, and even the issue of what knowledge we are propagating to the children. Many of the exhibits were broken. The robots exhibit had an arm shooting hoops. The worst it got was with the model of the NASA Dante II robot. It was hands-on, all right: press the up button to move a leg up, and the down button to move it down. Just one leg. BTW, they had an early Amiga in one kiosk. At any rate, I was kinda bored with so much floor space taken up by junk. In the Computer Museum, there was a very interesting application of hands-on. They had a part of a Whirlwind, with both the wire and tube sides of a panel exposed (behind glass, of course). The tubes were on, and you could actually feel how warm they got. Then there was an English->Punched card translator...Now those are good. >What I am moaning about is the 'hands-on' experiments using equipment >that would be found in most homes (or could, at least be bought >cheaply). It doesn't cost much to buy a battery and a bulb and test >objects to see if they conduct. It doesn't cost much to buy a bucket, >fill it with water and see what floats. Those are things that can >easily be done at home. Let's have things that can't be done at home >easily (demonstration engines, clock escapements, etc). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

How about a system like in recent software: 'levels'. That is, the exhibits are arranged in such a way that someone doesn't HAVE to pay attention to any details, but they are there. I can't tell you how annoying it is to walk through a museum and not have any idea what the exhibits are talking about. >I don't think museums should necessarily cater to the lowest common >denominator. I realize they derive much needed revenue from public >visitors and don't want to turn the dummies off, but they shouldn't >insult the rest of us. >> Question: Do many of you actively encourage folks (at least those >>you know or trust!) to visit you and your private collection who are >>not collectors/historians like us? If so, do you have fun teaching >>them a little about old computing (or old radios, automobiles, >>clocks or whatever your interest in addition to computers)? I don't think the average person is interested in computer history. Computers are not visibly works of art, like old radios. Most people have no nostalgic memories of them except logging in to the mainframe to update some numbers at work, or the 'do not bend...' cards. When an average person sees an old computer, they don't say, 'remember when...' or 'whoa, look at that disk architecture', they say,'are you crazy? What are you bothering with this piece of **** for?'. And most modern comuterheads are Wintel drones who don't see the meaning of a computer without Windows (ironically, Mac users are much more aware of their hardware). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Agreed. And yes, Sam, I would talk to a buyer and ask why he wants something. I don't pay rent or insurance, so I don't know, but I would be very uncomfortable knowing I'm a thousand dollars richer and an IMSAI's blood on my hands. A few days ago, I had the opportunity to give a family living in Russia a PS/2 Model 70. Why didn't I give it to them? Because they would be hard pressed to find someone over there who is familiar with PS/2s. How would they use the english refdisk (Russian windows is no problem)? What if they want to add a sound card? This thing uses MCA, not ISA. >No flamage... just that the analogy does not work for everyone... > >(new <somewhat non-computer related> example coming to my web pages >soon...) > >-jim >--- >jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>Old adage: (slightly updated) > > "An item is only worth as much or as little as someone is willing to >pay for it" > >Corollary: (much newer) > > "An item has no value unless the owner decides to sell it..." > Wow that makes my collection priceless...

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed I suggest real CD-ROMs >lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical >medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then >try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? >This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like >old magnetic tapes). I think paper is the best option. It shouldn't be a big deal to print a hex dump for a 20-K program with a line printer. >Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS >(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even >longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? That should keep IR out... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Nah! I went there this week-end no Lisa there and their prices are a little too high. Did you see the HP75's? Badly abused leaked batteries no PS $10 way too much plus nobody seemed to care I asked around if anyone knew wether they had the Ps's and the answers I got is if it's not near the machine it might be somewhere else. How about the badly dent Kaypro4 for $29? compac II (or III?) for $49. I used to like that place but now they are inflating their prices and won't even allow you to bargain. Francois -----Original Message----- From: Poesie <poesie(a)geocities.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 4:12 PM Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) >Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage >place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet >wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the >right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it >was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or >if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store >is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, >racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything >interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. > >-Eric >

27 years, 12 months

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Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Sorry, I guess it would degrade, wouldn't it... Why DO EPROMs go bad? >Eeeek! Is this guy crazy? It would have to be stuck in >carbon-loaded foam, and kept in a Faraday-cage container (metallized >stat bags, or similar). > >> That should keep IR out... > >IR would be the LEAST or your worries. Now if you're a follower of >Erich von Dainken, :-) you could inscribe your source in Gold >leaves, as certain pre-pre-columbian 'civilizations' supposedly >have done. Your assembly code will then be forever immortalized for >future generations to puzzle over. > >Who knows? It may even become an object of worship . . . . ><Tongue now removed from cheek> > >Jeff > >+------------------------------------------------------------------+ >|Disclaimer: | >| | >| These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | >| policies or opinions of my employer. | >| | >+------------------------------------------------------------------+ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

A Mac II is a 68020 or higher machine, the descendant of regular macs. Video was on an expansion card. 5 NuBus slots, I think. Room for two hard drives and two floppy drives (If you could ship me the ROM and RAM for it, please email me at maxeskin(a)hotmail.com). Other models in this series were: Mac IIci - Narrower case with one space for HDD, one for FDD, three slots, video on the board Mac IIsi - Same, but a more modern case There were also other immaterial variants. >Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage >place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet >wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the >right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it >was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or >if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store >is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, >racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything >interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. > >-Eric > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by peacock＠simconv.com

What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? That should keep IR out... And wrap them in aluminum foil to keep out the beta radiation, or even better lead bricks, keeps out cosmic rays and background radiation, oh, and move to some place with low radioactivity in the soil (hmmm, lets me out, Nevada is one of the most heavily nuked areas in the world), and store them at some location with a low altitude too, say the Dead Sea or Death Valley. I almost forgot, are the ROMs ceramic? Bad news, transfer them to plastic OTPs, ceramics generally have materials that source beta radiation. Those pretty white and gold cases could be destroying bits even now. Seriously, I preserve ROMs in the S-100 boards by disassembling them and saving the source code. I have about 30 backup tape generations on 4mm (I do one at the end of each month, well, 2 now, bigger disks), plus older backups on DC600 cartridges, and an offsite backup too, so I don't worry too much about losing them. And an extra advantage in having the source code is you can actually figure out how the hardware works, not have to depend on the skimpy manuals. The only drawback is that it is time consuming. Jack Peacock

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Well, let me modify that slightly. It's only disgusting in that it's >> going to be preventing people like the folks here on classiccmp from >> getting their hands on systems and taking proper care of them. Sure, > Yes, I agree 100%. As an example, one of the machines I would like is an > Apple Lisa. Not because it's collectable, but because I'd like to compare > Apple's extension of the work at Xerox PARC with the PERQ and with a > Xerox D-machine. In other words I want to strip a Lisa down, hook a logic > analyser up to it, and hack it to hell and back. In then end I'd still > have a working Lisa, and I'd have a stack of notes as to what really goes > on inside one. > But there's no way I can afford a Lisa at the current collector's prices. > So, alas, there's a gap in the collection :-( So, would you trade an Imsai 8080 for a Lisa 2? >> we all collect computers for the sake of collecting, but most of us >> really enjoy keeping them running and taking care of them, and can > Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers are in any sense > being preserved properly. I would doubt if ROMs were ever backed up or > PSUs tested. Heck, distribution disks are probably not backed up even. > I'll admit I sometimes damage the fabric of a classic, but I'm a lot more > careful than that. Full working, in dayly use (ok, at least once a week. >> Lucky for me, the computers I really love the most are the ones NOT >> found on Ebay. I've never seen a PDP8 or a PDP11 on Ebay, for instance. > Ditto, actually. I don't want an Altair, amazingly. Well, if somebody was > throwing one out I'd save it, but it's not a machine I'm looking for. In > fact, as I mentioned here once before, when 10 year ago I was offered the > choice between an Altair and an Intellec MCS8i, I grabbed the latter. deal ! Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem <that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, <althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write <anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape. <PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are I have floppies from then to bot readable and not. more are readable than not. What that means is every ten years update to new media to preserve the data. <Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling <EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS Maybe... they realy on charge storage and that can dissapate in time. Also xrays, cosmic rays and whatever can erase them! This does not include the ambient moisture getting to the silicon and rendering it to sand. <(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even Fuse link proms were even worse. I've had them grow back or develope other defects over time. AIM proms are better but still if overstressed at programming they can exhibit failure over time. <longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - <it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or <2708 not already needed for an old computer. In the case of 27xx devices, if they forget reprogram the same one if it's still good. If it failed well... find another? <> takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose <> screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's < <> If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see <> and I don't want it to happen again. I've also had those regulators drift with age. Like any IC they can fail of many ways! Allison

27 years, 12 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers >>> are in any sense being preserved properly. I would doubt >>> if ROMs were ever backed up or PSUs tested. >> Hmm, IMSAI's didn't have ROMs (or PALs and FPGAs, programmable logic had > The topic has drifted somewhat from the subject line - I wasn't only > refering to IMSAIs, but also to LISAs, etc, which most certainly do > contain ROMs. :) And also the most IMSAI I'v seen (on other boards - just to get power up a bit more comfortable :) > And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to > be backed up. Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like old magnetic tapes). Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS (real one not EPROMS without window) should live even longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or 2708 not already needed for an old computer. >> yet to be invented), unless you added them in yourself. As for checking >> the power supply, an IMSAI was extremely easy to eyeball...huge >> transformer, diodes, and beer can size capacitors. One problem I never > Yes, but there are regulators on each S100 card. If you've got a card > with rare socketed chips on it, I'd pull the chips and power up the card > without them the first time. Then check the local +5V rail, etc. It only > takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose > screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's. > If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see, > and I don't want it to happen again. I hope you keep this attitude for the next 20 years. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

> [Science museum] >>> Alas they've added some of those 'interactive' experiments. While a good >>> idea in theory, I'm not sure they should be combined with collections of >>> historical scientific instruments, etc. The groups of people interested >>> in the two displays would have virtually no intersection IMHO. >> Hmm. The Deutsches Museum is a 'hands-on'/'interactive') museum >> since the first years, and the combination of historic displays >> and learning works fine - at least for me. > I've got no problem with working exhibits, and hands-on learning. But the > science museum already has far more stuff than it can display, so when > a lot of the space has recently been taken over with these interactive > experiments that have little to do with the historical stuff, it's a > pity. Thats maybe a difference, because the Deutsches Museum is supposed to be a learning thing - tell science and technic One special thing is that there are displays made in the 30s, 50s or 60s which are historical themself. I had some fights in the past where these displays should be removed and replaced by something 'modern'. > While I am sure that such things are educationally very valuable, if I > want to see which materials conduct electricity, I'll do it at home :-). > I want to see things that, in general, I don't have at home, and am not > likely to have at home. No. It's exactly about the 'simple' displays to tell the basic story. I don't need a 'multi media experiance' on computers, when nobody tells the story of a flip-flop or any dimple and/or/not logic (Without these _simple_ displays at the Deutsches Museum I never had understood the two-stroke engine or the exact system of the 'controls' of an steam engine in locomotives). Example: in the computer hall they have a display showing a digital counter build of acryl boxes, driven by _water_ (As I said before - the computer display is marvelous until Zuse engine - thereafter just junk). Thats the kind I'm talking about - showing the basics. > Last time I was there, they had some kind of virtual reality system (a > game of some kind, I think). I didn't investigate further, as it cost > more money to see it. Note that this wasn't an exhibition on how virtual > reality machines work, or anything like that. And it was using the space > that had once held a GWR 'Castle' locomotive and a Class 55 Deltic. Sad, but if I had to decide between just displaying a clasic engine or a hans on display, I favour the later - don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about fun rides for entertainment. The Deutsches Museum also owns an impressiv collection of railway vehicle, and some real unique pices, but they are only to show significant stages of technology, not just historic - Thats reserved for railway mueseums (btw: you have in GB a museum still without any comperable counterpart in Germany - the Tramway Museum in Chrich!). >>> Oh, back the heads off the drum and replace it with a set of RAMs and >>> counters :-). Keep the drum turning, and demonstrate the machine with >>> more modern memory (at least for day-to-day operation). >> Exactly my idea of a display ... > Right... Well, even better, teach people how to start and stop the drum > and keep the machine original, but I guess that wouldn't be practical. Nice - but dream - the drum was alredy not very reliable when it was new. It would be a huge success if it could run only once. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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BULL - XPS 120 - HELP!

by wanderer＠bos.nl

Hi, The XPS100 and XPS120 are made by Bull S.A. (French computer maker, the Unix systems where actually made in Pregnana, Italy), the XPS100 used to be a single processor machine with an 68010 (or 68020) and the XPS120 used to be a dual cpu machine (that is, as far as I can remember it) When I worked with them they had Unix System 5 rel. 0, but maybe also release 1 or 2 has been made available at a later stage. Basically after you have connected all the disks and so on it should work, the console should generate some diagnostic messages and other stuff, and you should then get the login prompt. Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer(a)bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates!

27 years, 12 months

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APPLE //c question

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Yesterday I opened my Apple //c to take a picture, and I >> found something strange: On the OS _EP_ROM is a batch >> to close the window, handmade with the text "NOV 30, 83" >> written on it. I always thought that the //c was released >> in april '84 and first in the US - but this is an ordinary >> (at least I think) german //c. There is no information >> sticker on the case, so no serial number or exact modell >> information is available (I forgot to check the revision >> number on the mainboard). The character generator is also >> 'only' an EPROM, but the sticker on the window is premade >> (paper) with a copyright notice (APPLE 83). > Is the texture of the case smooth or rough? Does it have the Apple logo > and the //c name imprinted on the top of the case towards the back end? > If you still have it open, look under the power supply (it takes some > force to pull the P/S out of its socket). What does it say underneath? Camera and Pictures are at home. I'll have a look (yes its still open, since I use this to giv him a complete cleaning). More information tomorrow. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by peacock＠simconv.com

> If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape II's will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will. A TK50 (CompacTape I, 95MB) can be read in any TK drive up to a TK86 (CompacTape III, 6GB). A TK70 (CompacTape II, 295MB) is also upward but not downward compatible. However, if you fully erase a TK70 with a degausser it will work in a TK50 drive, but from then on it looks like a TK50 tape in a TK70 drive too. Re uVAX 2000 tape drives, a TK50-F is the original drive but the SCSI controller in the tape needs an upgrade if you use it with any other SCSI controller, like a MicroVax 3100. The TK50-G model had the updated ROMs, so given a choice look for the G model instead. Jack Peacock

27 years, 12 months

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APPLE //c question

by franke＠sbs.de

Yesterday I opened my Apple //c to take a picture, and I found something strange: On the OS _EP_ROM is a batch to close the window, handmade with the text "NOV 30, 83" written on it. I always thought that the //c was released in april '84 and first in the US - but this is an ordinary (at least I think) german //c. There is no information sticker on the case, so no serial number or exact modell information is available (I forgot to check the revision number on the mainboard). The character generator is also 'only' an EPROM, but the sticker on the window is premade (paper) with a copyright notice (APPLE 83). So, is this maybe some kind of early pre production series for tests in Germany ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Old Mac OS.... Help PLS!

by yaksaken＠hkstar.com

Hi Lawrence: Thanks for your info, I will search it up from WWW.... :) BTW, may I use any Mac emulator, and get the HD-COPY from Apple site and run it to extract the Mac disc image from an IBM directly? Yours, Ken Yaksa > There are several programs for transferring disks from a PC to Mac . > Macindos , Macsee , and IMHO the best is Macdisk . > This is a description: > macdisk.exe (249K) > Mac Disk is a PC utility to read, write, and > format Macintosh HD floppy disks. Bundled > with an Ascii converter and a utility to edit the > internal table. Contains a demo version under > Windows and a shareware version. From Pierre > Duhem. See ReadMe for additional information. > > macsq.exe (318K) > Mac SQ is a PC utility to read, write and > format Macintosh SyQuest cartridges on a PC. > Contains a demo version under Windows and a > shareware version under DOS. > > The macsq overcomes the problem of the non-MFM > 800 and 400 k flopies if you have access to a Syquest > removeable. > > I can't find the URL for this but a search should easily turn it up. > Of course if you have a working Mac you can down load to a PC > The trick is not to uncompress on the PC but simply transfer the > uncompressed files and then uncompress them with Shrinkit . > The same technique works with the Atari ST > > ciao larry > > lwalker(a)interlog.com

27 years, 12 months

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available 8" disks

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

> I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several > hundred floppies. > > Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. Readable? By what machine? Are they single or double sided and what format? (My machines with 8inch: IBM System/23, FTS Series 88 (FTS is CP/M86). I also intend one day to get a PDP running, and connect an RX02 to it.) > Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. > > Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can > be packed in plastic disk boxes. As usual, shipping to the UK is likely to be expensive. I am reluctant to buy secondhand blank disks, although given the quality of most new disks nowadays, secondhand ones are unlikely to be any worse... > If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. I don't think I'll buy disks unless they have something really nice on them, but: If you do get to the point of throwing disks away, please keep the paper envelopes, and I will pay for shipping of these. I am very short (some disks three to an envelope at present) because I also store photographs in them (I get 8 inch square prints back from the developer). Philip.

27 years, 12 months

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available 8" disks

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Tue Jun 23 05:31:27 1998 <Return-Path: <CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu> <Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2 < id AA07052; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 05:31:26 -0400 <Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) < by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with S < id CAA20579; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:25:23 -0700 <Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9 < by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ES < id CAA68408 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 <Received: from imsp073.netvigator.com (imsp073.netvigator.com [205.252.14 < by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESM < id CAA17221 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:24: <Received: from ken-yaksa (yckam027047.netvigator.com [206.161.49.239]) < by imsp073.netvigator.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13587 < for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:24:12 +0800 (HKT <Message-Id: <199806230924.RAA13587(a)imsp073.netvigator.com> <Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:19:21 +0800 <Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu <Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu <Precedence: bulk <From: "Ken Yaksa" <yaksaken(a)hkstar.com> <To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washing <Subject: Re: available 8" disks <Mime-Version: 1.0 <Content-Type: text/plain; charset=BIG5 <Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <X-To: <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> <X-Msmail-Priority: Normal <X-Priority: 3 <X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN <Status: R <May I have few blank disks from you too...?? I live in Hong Kong, and I <discover that I never can find 8" disks in my location! :( If so, I woul <pay the shipping... :) < <Yours, <Ken Yaksa OK, here's the scoop. 1) I don't want to ship if I don't have to. 2) I'd really rather not ship international No one is interrested in paying me to package them to ship. Even with free boxes and wadded up newpaper as padding it's still my time and tape. 3) the games disks... that was an unfortunate inclusion and the number of disks that represents is small compared to the SIGM and CPMUG portion which is some 300 or so. The rest are belived blank, or what have you on them. 3a) the cpmug and SIGM disks are all on the WCcdrom and simtel, I feel no guilt dumping them as it's not like they are anywhere near the last on earth. They are more useful as media of if you have a 8" cpm system convenient. 4) they are all CP/M sssd though some may be ssdd. 5) local pickup prefered. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape II <will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will. You can not us <Compact III's or IV's (not that you would want to even used they are VER <spendy). CompactTapeII is not usable as it's for tk70 and is different oxide. The II tapes are the same size though. TK50 tapes can be read in tk70 but not the reverse. <Oh, and they are light grey. of course. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

It certainly seems to have a load of memory chips in it! But I didn't <really try to tally the total amount. the base board has 2mb and there are two daughter boards one for the network (has 7990 lance chip) and the otehr is more memory. <Do you have a wiretable from the 60-pin to hard and floppy connectors? Iff the top of my head no, it's not that complex though. finding the 60 pin connector is the challenge. It's then broken down to the 34pin for the floppy, 43pin for the HD and the 22pin for the HD. <That 15-pin CRT/keyboard/mouse sounds an awful lot like the Rainbow <setup. Could I be so lucky? Maybe, I forget the cable and monitor used. there were both color and monochrome. The cable for the rainbow may not be useable! I don't have graphic consoles for mine so cables and tubes are a dim memory. <Heh heh! Hope they are not the nuisance that house flies are! Not likely, but fun. This will help with the monitor command the VS2000 is a subset of the vs3100 that would come later. DEPOSIT [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:<n>] [{ <addr> | <sym> | + | - | * | @ } [<datum>]] EXAMINE [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:<n>] [{ <addr> | <sym> | + | - | * | @ }] BOOT [/[R5:]<bflg>] <ddau>: TEST <n> [<m>] BOOT command Syntax: BOOT [/[R5:]<bflg>] <ddau>: ddau - device in VMS/VMB column listed in 'SHOW DEV' command R5: - ??? bflg - ??? Bootstraps from and submits control to the loaded program retrieved from device 'ddau' DEPOSIT command Syntax: DEPOSIT [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:<n>] [{ <addr> | <sym> | + | - | * | @ } [<datum>]] Writes argument(s) to memory /B - byte (8 bit) /W - word (16 bit) /L - long (32 bit) /P - ??? /V - ??? /I - I registers (0x00-0x13) what are they for ??? /G - G registers (0x00-0x0f) what are they for ??? /U - ??? /N:<n> - number of entries (bytes/words/longs) <addr> - memory address (hexidecimal) <sym> - ??? + - increments pointer by byte/word/long - - decrements pointer by byte/word/long * - ??? @ - ??? <datum> - that which is written to memory determined by above args EXAMINE command Syntax: EXAMINE [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:<n>] [{ <addr> | <sym> | + | - | * | @ }] Examines memory contents /B - byte (8 bit) /W - word (16 bit) /L - long (32 bit) /P - ??? /V - ??? /I - I registers (0x00-0x13) what are they for??? /G - G registers (0x00-0x0f) what are they for??? /U - ??? /N:<n> - number of entries (bytes/words/longs) <addr> - memory address (hexidecimal) <sym> - ??? + - increment pointer by 1=byte, 2=word, 3=long - - decrement pointer by 1=byte, 2=word, 3=long * - ??? @ - ??? TEST commands Syntax: TEST <n> n - number in decimal 00-99 Function: Performs peripheral tests 00 - system exerciser 50 - Disply config in criptic form (the third column is informative) 51 - set default boot device 52 - set boot flags 53 - set default recover action (boot) 54 - set keyboard language 61 - screen of "E" used for monitor checking (monochrome) 62 - white screen (monochrome monitor) 70 - format drive installed (floppy ot hard) 71 - diskette or HD verifier 81 - screen of "E" for color monitor 82 - white screen for color monitor 87 - 8 color bars for color monitor 88 - 8 gray scale bars for comor or monochrome Allison

27 years, 12 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Sounds like a Maxtor 2190 clone. usually says maxtor on the top and 2190 on the side. <> Back to that SCSI -- the SCSI in the MicroVAX 2000 was for use only <> with the TK50Z-FA tape drive, a 95MB cartridge tape system which looks <> almost exactly like today's fancy DLT tapes (It's DLT's grandfather, <> pretty much). TK50 is an extremely common format for older (early to <Is that the 4" square (about) tape cartridge that i see a lot of <occasionally? Yes and you want one as they store 95 meg and it's a sorta default smallvax tape. The TK50z-fa is a second box the same size as the one you have. If you can find a external storage box (yep, another bix just like that one) you have the full storage boat. <No, but there are a 50-pin and a 60-pin header on the motherboard that <are not presently used. the 60 pin is the MFM-HD/Floppy connector and the 50 pin is a vaild pinout for a 50 pin scsi. <The VMS VAXcluster is not an option, but the netboot may be. Also check out www.decus.org as you can get a license for VMS free. The real trick is media as Montgar.com has the CDROM with VMS5.4 through V6.1 and a bunch of other stuff for 30$. Usually you can get someone to crack the cdrom (it's DEC VMS files not PC compatable) to TK50. The alternate is if someone has a VS2000 or MicrovaxII they can put the OS directly on the rd54 and you can plug it in. Ultrix can often be found on old machines as well if your into unix. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 22, 22:05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Is that the 4" square (about) tape cartridge that i see a lot of > >occasionally? > > If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape II's > will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will. No, but the other way round (CompacTape/TK50 in a CompacTapeII/TK70 drive) works. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 12 months

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available 8" disks

by yaksaken＠hkstar.com

Hi Allison: May I have few blank disks from you too...?? I live in Hong Kong, and I discover that I never can find 8" disks in my location! :( If so, I would pay the shipping... :) Yours, Ken Yaksa > I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several > hundred floppies. > > Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. > > Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. > > Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can > be packed in plastic disk boxes. > > If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. > > Also I have another box load that have programs (orginal disks) of the > likes of deadline, planetffall, Aventure and more.

27 years, 12 months

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What is the first computer?

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

Just to be different, I accidentally sent this to Hans instead of the list last night. ;-) P. ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re[6]: What is the first computer? Author: Philip Belben at PowerTech2 Date: 22/06/98 18:17 >> Was the Z3 like the Z4 in using old 35mm cine film for punched tape? >> (don't try and read it with an optical reader!!!!) > > Never heard of opto-mechanics ? *g* > > In fact all early Zuse computers used old cine tapes. > Z1, Z2, Z3, Z4. Opto mechanics? Fine. That is, fine if you want your data to be logically OR'd with the picture recorded on the film... >> Irony of the week: the >> Pascal calculator in the London Science Museum is a decimal model. That >> in the Deutches Museum is a Pounds, Shillings and Pence model. :-) > > Afaik they also own a decimal one, but Pounds, Shillings and Pence > ar _way_way_way_ more exotic :) - It gets a lot more attention than > 'just' decimal calculaters, althrough the difference are only some > of the wheels. :-) IIRC, marked Livres, Solz, and Deniers. What's Solz an abbreviation of? Solides? I thought shillings were Sous! (off topic) I've always thought the single European currency should be called a Pound because there's a word for it in almost all European languages - Pfund, Livre, Lira, Peso(?) etc. Dollar would do as well, I suppose (Thaler?). Or even Ecu (Escudo?). But Euro?!?!?!? > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK What does "HRK" mean? I apologise for taking it as your initials - our mail software strips off the header and you have to go and look for things like the Sender's name or address. (The quotation is Descartes, isn't it?) Philip.

27 years, 12 months

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Tandy DWP-210 For Sale!!!

by hills＠frontiernet.net

Classic daisy-wheel printer for sale. http://www.frontiernet.net/~hills/dwp.htm

27 years, 12 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Saturday at the local swapmeet, I picked up a MicroVAX 2000. It is a < neat little package, but now that I have it what can I do with it? And < how do I do it? IT's a vax and runs VMS(fits on a RD53 or 54), Ultrix(fits on rd53 or 54) and sorta runs NETBSD(?). If you put a terminal on the DB9 (ground pin 8 to 9) it will use a standard terminal (9600, 8,n,1). The Test 50 command will display ram installed and other data about the system. VMS and ultrix runs fairly well in 4 or more meg of ram NetBSD wants 8 or more, 14mb is max. < This one is a Model 625NT-AA, and comes without harddisk. It appears IT has a hard and a floppy controller on the board (the 60 pin connector). The biggest drive it knows is the RD54 (maxtor 2990) at 159mb. It can also format hard disks and DEC floppies rx50 <400kb dual 5.25> or RX33 <1.2mb, 5.25>. < that there is a resistor board installed to provide a load comparable < to the drive on the power supply. According to a rather sketchy spec < sheet that I d/l'd from DEC, it can handle a maximum 318mb local disk. < Based on the 53C80 chip installed, I presume that the drive should be < SCSI. The 318mb of local disk is 2 RD54s. The 50 pin internal connecter is indeed SCSI... but the only device usable is an oddball version of the TK50 tape that has the ODD scsi bridge board. Reason for oddball, BOOT ROMS do not talk std SCSI nor do they boot anything other than Eithernet (BNC), Floppy, HARD disk or TK50 tape on the scsi BUS. It will not boot a SCSI disk. It can use a SCSI disk IF you supply your own driver. < At the rear of the machine are three sub-D connectors, one each 25-pin, < 15-pin, and 9-pin. What are their functions? The 15 and 9 are < presently encumbered by a plugin box that has three RJ45(?) connectors. < Network link? 25 pin is modem. 15 pin is CRT/keyboard/mouse, 9pin is serial printer or console. The MMJ adaptor bring out the serial printer, mouse and keyboard lines to RS423 serial lines for terminals (ala dec vt320). That MMJ adaptor is removeable (two screws). Network is on the AUI or BNC connector and is eithernet (10base2). They are common as house flies and as small vaxen go pretty useful and fun to run as they really don't use much power. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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FW: Fellow's looking for a VAXen in Oz

by kyrrin＠jps.net

One of our fellow collectors 'down under' is apparently seeking a VS3100 or similar. If you can help, please contact him directly. Thanks in advance. Attachment follows. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- From: <> Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: vaxstation wanted NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.134.95.117 Message-ID: <358e6062.0(a)139.134.5.33> Date: 22 Jun 98 13:47:14 GMT Lines: 9 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!139.130.250.2!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nntp.telstra.net!139.134.5.33!139.134.95.117 I am after a used vaxstation 3100 or 4000 model. Must be working. Also TLZ06 DAT drive wanted. Has anyone got one for sale in Sydney, Australia area. Email me at GADTECH(a)bigpond.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW.

27 years, 12 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

> Not exactly, the SCSI port is only for a tape drive, a TK50Z (an early > ancestor to modern DLT drives). Gerhard Moeller has hacked together a SCSI driver for the beast. You'll still need an MFM drive to boot from, though. He posts fairly frequently on comp.sys.dec or comp.os.vms, so it shouldn't be difficult to track him down with dejanews. > A uVAX 2000 uses MFM drives, either a > Microplis 1325/DEC RD53 (70MB) or a Maxtor 2190/DEC RD54 (159MB). In > order to load VMS you really need the RD54, 70MB is too small. Unless, of course, you install something like MicroVMS 4.5, which was current when the thing came out. I've installed 7.1 on an 40MB drive, but it was painful and it occasionally spontaneously crashes. Using Gerhard's driver, I have a nice little package containing a 40MB drive and a TZ30 tape drive to take on travel. I did have to do some metalwork hacking to get the TZ30 in; there's a cable that wanders around outside the 5.25" form factor. > The HD > controller is the 40 pin SMC chip on the motherboard. Oddball MFM > format, not compatible with WD HDCs, Well, technically, the format itself is compatible. The 2000 just adds some extra information to control bad block replacement. The PC doesn't know about the extra information and, consequently, doesn't add it. Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

27 years, 12 months

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