>> I just picked up a Tektronix 4041 computer. I think it's a general
>> purpose HP-IB instrument controller similar to a HP 9915. How close is it
>> to your 4052? I HAD a Tektronix 4046 disk drive unit for the 4041 a few
>> months ago but I traded it off (A_ S___!) Does anyone know anything
Not at all similar, I'm afraid.
The 4051 was a 6800 machine, and the 4052 used four 2901 chips and a
homebrew sequencer to give you a 25MHz 6800 with some extra
instructions. More about this - and the disgusting piece of
pessimisation they included - at my talk at VCF...
Philip.
Tony Duell qouted Jeff as having written:
>> Maybe you would have been better off using an HP IEEE disk drive:
>
> Problem is, I don't think Philip has the CS/80 protocol (mainly because
> I'm looking for it, and he's not offered it to me ;-)). And without that
> impossible-to-find document, it's almost impossible to use HP drives.
True. The reason was, I have _no_ HP disk drives, but I have _three_
8050s (one working, one in bits, one badly mangled), not to mention a
4040 and a 2031 (which would also work), and at least six PETS. So the
Commodore stuff was the obvious choice.
And Tony is also right: I don't have the CS/80 protocol.
Besides, most of the problems were with the Tektronix lacking facilities
for opening files, loading and saving named files, etc.
Not to mention its asserting of IFC just when I didn't want it to...
> The Commodore protocol is pretty well documented in a number of books
> ('Programming the PET' has enough info, I think).
by Raeto West? Exactly what I used.
>> In this neck of the woods anyway, Commodore IEEE related 'stuff'
>> is pretty scarce . . .
>
> It's not that rare in the UK. I've got an 8050, 8250LP and a number of
> printers here.
Agreed. Lots of PETs were used in commercial/scientific applications -
probably because of the GPIB - and there are even books like West or
Osborne & Donahue in the library here at work.
Philip.
I want to apologize to you for accidentally sending you an anti-spam
message. When I first set up my auto-reply spam filter it was acting
quite funky.
Again, I apologize.
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter [mailto:pechter@shell.monmouth.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 7:48 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: What the hell is a NightHawk 5800?
>
>
> >
> > At 09:26 PM 8/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
> > >Almost sounds like something from the government - even
> the name.
> >
> > Very likely. Harris does a LOT of government work. Their satellite
> > division (and others) are literally right around the corner
> from this place.
> >
>
> Harris had a number of computer lines. I can't guarrantee the
> following
> info -- but I think it's accurate. The Nighthawk was a
> (mostly) military
> real-time Unix machine based off the Masscomp 500 and 5000
> line and RTUv3
> (they started as OEM's doing a secure version of the OS and
> then began using
> stuff of their own design).
>
> Masscomp was eaten by Concurrent Computer (formerly Perkin
> Elmer, formerly
> Interdata) which was swallowed by Harris about 4 years ago. Harris
> took the Concurrent name, though.
>
> Harris also came up with both a firewall application (now
> sold by a different
> company now -- at the merger Harris spun off the firewall
> operation and
> the secure Unix, I think). They now do real-time Unix and are trying
> to crack the Video Server business.
>
> Masscomp and Concurrent used the 68000 family (Masscomp folks
> used to be
> DEC and DG types with Real-time experience on 11/23 Mincs).
>
> Masscomp kind of filled the need for small lab real-time
> stuff when DEC
> went off to chase the Vax $$$ and let real-time slip away in the mid
> 80's. They added DEC's AST's to System III to get a soft real-time
> system for labs and instrument and industrial control.
>
> HISTORY...
>
> Concurrent did real-time on their proprietary systems (OS/32) and
> saw a need to get away from OS/32 and into real-time Unix so
> they bought
> Masscomp. Concurrent failed in every small machine they tried to
> put together before Masscomp and pretty much put the last
> nail in Masscomp's
> coffin. Concurrent failed to come up with a good software
> development
> environment on OS/32. DEC cleaned their clock on everything but
> hardware price/performance. They had the most hardware bang
> for the buck and needed the OEM's to make them a winner (where
> DEC moved more into a systems and SOFTWARE company). I worked for
> DEC and later Concurrent (at the time of the Masscomp deal.)
>
> PROCESSORS...
>
> Masscomp went from 68k to Mips R3000 in the early 90's and then
> merged with Harris.
>
> Harris used 68k and then went to 88k (I think) and then Power PC.
>
> Harris also made commercial supermini's (24 bit machines).
>
>
> Bill
>
> P.S. - If anyone is interested, I'm willing to provide an edited copy of
> my windows cardfile of vendors. have about 1000 pages, w/ contacts for
> alot of diff manufacturers. email privately if interested. :)
Would you still happen to have this cardfile available?
At 12:17 AM 8/19/98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
>
>I am also now the proud owner of an SGI 4D/380 (and most of another
>4D/380). Physically it is in very good shape, but apparently it is quite
>sick. 8 processors, buckets of SIMMs, neeto graphics, but the best thing
>is the "CPU Power Meter" on the front of the cabinet...
>Does anyone have IRIX on 1/4" tape?
With SGI, you're dealing with a (barely? :-) still existent company.
You're supposed to buy IRIX, not copy it. On the other hand, is
there any evidence that an IRIX license was transferred to you
as part of the deal on this machine? Buying a second SGI box that
comes with a license will be cheaper than buying it from SGI. :-)
Ask the experts on news at comp.sys.sgi.*.
- John
> Hi William,
> Do you have a URL for the RetroComputing Society? I'm in South
> Central PA. Maybe I could make it down some time.
Try <http://osfn.org/rcs/>.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:00:56 -0700 you said to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
cl>YES YES YES!!!!!! *Jumps about and throws mouse at floor like
cl>football* Oops...
cl>At any rate, I am now successfully logged into the MicroVax II as
cl>SYSTEM!
cl>Thanks to all who helped me out! Now if I just had documentation
cl>other than the built-in HELP database.
cl>Basically, now what I'd like to do is get some assistance (in
cl>private email if it's more appropriate) to make a full backup of
cl>the system so that I can feel safer playing around with it.
For VMS documentation try the links at
http://vaxarchive.ml.org/swdoc/vms/vms_doc.shtml
This is a list of a great deal of VMS documentation available online.
Basically you first create a Standalone Backup tape, which is bootable
tape needed to backup a system disk and restore a backup to a blank hard
disk, and then you boot from this tape and do the backup.
Boot VMS from the hard disk and enter these commands to create the
standalone backup:
$ SET DEFAULT SYS$UPDATE
$ @STABACKIT
The program asks for the name of the device the kit is to be built on,
usually this is MUA0:
To back up the system, boot from the tape with
>>> B/E0000000 MUA0:
When the prompt appears, enter the command:
$ BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY DUA0: MUA0:FULLBACK.BCK/REWIND/LABEL=AUG19
This assumes you are backing up the first hard disk on the first disk
controller to the first tape drive on the first tape drive controller.
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
< Was DEC's EDT text editor ever `ported to any non-DEC platforms, such a
< PCs or unixes? It is still my favorite text and program editor, and I'
< love to have on on some of my "everyday" machines.
No. I do use VEDIT for CP/M configured to use the EDT keypad and function
very similar. It allows me the full screen modes via keypad and also
command line (change) using TECO macros.
Thre are versions (predeccessor) to EDT that run on PDP-11 under RT-11,
RSTS and RSX11.
Allison
allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
> < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=25437342
Well, that's Allison quoting me. I'd been nosing through eBay to see
what else there was to fuss over and noticed someone put up a big lot
of parts for a low price and u-pick-up in Arlington, MA. Thought it
might be of interest to someone out that way as repair parts.
Where folks find time to go through eBay listings is what I wonder.
-Frank McConnell
Hmmm... Is the 4046 the SCSI Floppy Disk/Hard Disk rack mountable unit?
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe [mailto:rigdonj@intellistar.net]
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 11:55 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Minor Tektronix success story.
>
>
> I just picked up a Tektronix 4041 computer. I think it's a general
> purpose HP-IB instrument controller similar to a HP 9915.
> How close is it
> to your 4052? I HAD a Tektronix 4046 disk drive unit for
> the 4041 a few
> months ago but I traded it off (A_ S___!) Does anyone know
> anything about
> the keybaords for the 4041? It uses a strange 4 pin
> connector. I've heard
> that you can operate them from a terminal. Does anyone know
> anything about
> this?
>
> Joe
>
> At 07:14 PM 8/17/98 GMT, you wrote:
> >A minor success story compared with some I read here, but I
> wanted to
> >share it with you...
> >
> >This weekend I finally got my Tektronix 4052 graphics
> computer loading
> >and saving on a Commodore 8050 disk drive. The problems:
> >
> >Commodore's weird handling of IEEE-488 protocol, especially
> with OPEN
> >and CLOSE. This requires bit 7 (the 128s bit) to be set
> when sending a
> >secondary address; bit 4 - usually the 16s bit of the
> address - tells
> >the drive whether it's an open or a close.
> >
> >This was easily solved - the Tektronix WBYTE statement gives full
> >control over such things.
> >
> >But the Tek is designed as a tape based machine. You FIND a
> file on the
> >tape and type OLD to load it. The machine then resets and loads the
> >program.
> >
> >On a disk, you WBYTE @40,240: some bytes to specify the file
> name. But
> >if you type OLD @8,0: it asserts IFC during the reset, thus
> causing the
> >drive to have forgotten all about your program by the time
> it comes to
> >load it...
> >
> >So I toyed with the idea of cutting the IFC line in a
> suitable cable.
> >But then I came across the APPEND statement. "APPEND @I/O
> address:line
> >number" loads a program without resetting, renumbering it to
> start at
> >the specified line. Neat.
> >
> >So I now have a program to display the directory of the
> disk, prompt you
> >for a filename and APPEND the file on the end of itself. It then
> >performs an INIT (initialise variables, IFC and things) and
> drops into
> >the program.
> >
> >Saving is easier, so less automated. You type something like
> >WBYTE @40,241:48,58,80,82,79,71,82,65,77,32,78,65,77,69,-13
> >WBYTE @63:
> >SAVE @8,1
> >WBYTE @40,225,63:
> >
> >Not perfect, but it works. If anyone has an 8050 at the VCF, I'll
> >happily demonstrate!
> >
> >Now, has anyone got a PET hard drive? And, for that matter,
> has anyone
> >got a MUPET system for sale?
> >
> >Philip.
> >
> >
>
A guy in Sweden put 4mb and a uVaxII and some MFM (RQDX?) in one
< with no problem and some serious wire wrap work.
<
< I don't think it's impossible -- especially with a reworked
< power supply.
Sorta agrees with what I said.
I looked at my Vt100 and it would be possible to shoehorn a set of VS2000
boards power supply and a disk into the VT100 case. It's easier to sit it
on top. ;)
Allison
> With all the DEC enthusiasts here, maybe someone can help:
>
> Was DEC's EDT text editor ever `ported to any non-DEC platforms, such as
> PCs or unixes? It is still my favorite text and program editor, and I'd
> love to have on on some of my "everyday" machines.
You might want to look into JED - it has EDT keymaps available, as well
as Wordstar and Emacs. It runs nicely on Unixes, and Win95 ports seem to
be happening as well. It's available at:
ftp://space.mit.edu/pub/davis/jed/
You'll also need the Slang library, available at
ftp://space.mit.edu/pub/davis/slang/
Slrn and Most, also available at that site, are my favorite newsreader
and pager, respectively. I haven't used Jed as much.
--
Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley(a)ac.grin.edu
CBEL: Xavier OH, Season 15 champions CMEL: Xavier
>With all the DEC enthusiasts here, maybe someone can help:
>Was DEC's EDT text editor ever `ported to any non-DEC platforms, such as
>PCs or unixes? It is still my favorite text and program editor, and I'd
>love to have on on some of my "everyday" machines.
Yes, there have been several ports of EDT. By far the most complete -
and the most expensive - is Boston Business Computing's. Everything
that is in real EDT is in BBC's EDT. See http://www.bbc.com/ for details.
There are several less worthy emulations, that do a pretty good job
of emulating EDT's CHANGE (ala "full-screen") mode but which don't
even attempt to emulate non-keypad or line modes. In particular,
an emulation package for EMACS falls into this category, as well as
the shareware JED.
-----
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917
7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817
Some folks may recall that my classic computer web pages (at
<http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/>) are automatically generated by a
program I wrote. Well, I've finally got the docs in some semblance of
order, for them what was interested. There's a link at the bottom of the
page, or you can go straight to
<http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/bldhtm.htm> for the related page. You
can also download the whole shebang there. Sorry it took so long!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
< ObCC: Supposedly, MITS came out with a hobbyist machine a couple of year
< before the Altair called the MITS 816. I haven't found much info about
< it. Is it real?
The only prior products to the altair were a hand calc (several) and also
some hobbiest telemetry bits. If there was another computer it was a
maybe to compete in the MARK-8 realm (8008 based).
In the 8008 realm there were several companies that predate MITS. There
used to be a company here in MA called Control Logic I think that had
their "L series" modules that were 8008 based.
Personally I view collecting Altairs to wine... altair was the first lot
produced by a particular vintor. It was as drinkable as hog urine but,
it was their first and the vintor would become famous and fail making
that first lot scarce and "collectable".
Most of the early altairs had to be hacked (required) to make them work.
They are now shelf addornments and should be held up as an example of
how not to do it. I'm being serious. Anyone that wants a S100 front
pannel box to actually run would do far better with an IMSAI, Ithica
Intersystems, or several others. Most however learn the first thing
with these is that once you have it running the first code you want is
a terminal keyboard monitor as replacement switches are a few bucks each
and the originals are getting poor. Also toggling in 25 or 50 bytes every
power up or crash gets tiring. I say this as someone that lived with the
MITS ACR (sill have the analog board for one) where you toggle
in a 33byte loader, then load MITS basic crash half way through (10
minutes), toggle in the loader again, load the tape... I think that
lasted three months until I made my first PROM card using 8223 proms.
A few weeks later the ACR tape interface would be removed in favor of
a digital tape of my own design. The load, crash, reload cycles were
a great detriment to the goal of doing some serious programming. I
still feel the flakey hardware and really awful audio cassette kept me
>from doing anything useful for the first 6-7 months of ownership.
Hacks applied to mine to make it work with some reliablity before it was
replaced with a NS* system in early 78.
* Moved AC power from front pannel switch as I felt it was dangerous
having an unprotected traces with 110v on them.
* 8V DC line was 7.8v with cpu and two 4k dram cards. Added 12 turns to
the winding. Upgraded filter cap to larger value, replaced undersized
rectifers. Mits offered a new transformer at users cost.
* +-16V DC line marginal, rectifers fried, upgraded.
* Backplane was in four slot segments and was a single sided affair.
I had 8 slots and had to add bussbar to the power and ground lines
as the power distribution from one end of the bus tot he otehr was
poor.
* modifed memory cards (88MCD) to improve timing and signal quality.
* Replaced backplane with a improved two sided one from third party.
* Replaced 2mhz crystal and oneshots used for 8080 clock with 8224 and
18mhz crystal.
* modified memory cards to replace 4060s with uPD410 static devices of
the same pinout.
After all this the system would load MITS basic and run for a week solid
without crashing.
By the middle of '76 I'd be up to 4 memory cards of both the 88mcd design
and a vastly better 88S4k design. a then whopping 16k of ram. That would
be eclipsed by the addition of a Seals 8k static card that was 1/3 the
cost of the first 16k and still works!
If I'd waited a year and bought an IMSAI I'd have saved all that time,
about $3000 and had a machine that would not have required replacement.
The upside is by that time I'd learned how it should NOT be done.
Allison
RE: VAX/OpenVMS
< I would have thought so. I don't think there were any features "retired"
< going form 5.2 to 5.5. Of course, there were lots of new things added
< although sitting here I can't think of what - it's been a while since 5.
< was released!
I've been operating VMS 5.4-5.5 without docs for about five years. I'd
consider a 5.2 docset a windfall! The differences from 5.2 to 5.6 are
in part bug fixes (odd releases, like 5.3, 5.5) and feature additions
(5.2, 5.4, 5.6). that's not absolute but it generally follows that
pattern. Also within a version 5.x major changes will not happen or it
becomes 6.x! Also if the system is complete there will be a features
and additions page in the help file.
Allison
< http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=25437342
<
< When I last looked (an hour ago?) no-one had bid, the minimum bid is
< $1.00 (though there's work involved getting the stuff), there's a bit
< under two days to go, and here's the description:
<
< >Hundreds of tubes of brand-new 7400 & 74LS TTL DIPs and resistor
< >networks. 8 MHz 68000's and 16K DRAMs. Boxes and boxes of brand-new 3M
snip...
Sounds interesting but I'm cubed out here.
Allison
Almost sounds like something from the government - even the name. How
much are they asking for it? If it's not that much, it may be worth it
just to get it and see just what the heck it actually was for...
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: What the hell is a NightHawk 5800?
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 1:07 PM
>
> I was offered a NightHawk 5800 computer today. What the &*&% is it?
I've
> never heard of one. It was made by Harris Computer Systems and it's
> supposed to have 16Mb, Memory tape unit, a 5802 processor, 64 Meg Local
> Memory, 64 Meg Global Memeory, 2 slot front plane (front plane???), SCSSI
> Interface (no that's not a typo), Eagle Eatha Net Card, 4 mm DAT drive
and
> two 1 G hard drives. The operating system and a LARGE pile of manuals
are
> included. Any one know anything about this? ANY idea what it's worth?
> Is it usefull for anything?
>
> Joe
>
>>Same guy. Dunno, might be same machine. $10,000 reserve!
>
> I hope E-OverPay eats him up with the listing fee!
>
> Joe
Actually, it costs him nothing to relist. The initial
listing cost him $2 but he is afforded one free relist
if the item does not meet it's reserve.
Now, I know that many of you want to chase the moneychangers
out of this temple. And some probably even think that I
am the anti-christ who came in on a black helicopter.
But please try to help me understand something. If I
put something up for auction on Ebay I have not held
a gun to anyone's head and forced them to buy anything.
If, by their own free will, they make the decision to
bid an amount that is more than the accepted value
of that item then what have I done that is unethical?
If someone goes to a high priced Mom and Pop hardware
store and pays $30 for a Weller soldering iron when
he can buy the same iron at Wal-mart for $20 did Mom
and Pop do something unethical by offering the iron for
$30?
I know many of you have occupations in which you (or
your employer)
sell products or services at retail. And I'll bet
some of it is sold at what many would deem "sucker" prices.
Does that make you unethical? Simply because
you are not willing to price at wholesale?
What is the difference?
Bob Wood
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I know this may be somewhat off-topic (I did throw in the word Altair a few
times though) but I can't help wondering now, what is preventing someone
>from setting an outrageous reserve and then simply accepting the highest
bidder's bid. The Ebay rules state (heh - you can believe me this time - I
just re-read them!) "You will not be charged a Final Value Fee if: There
were no bids on your item; OR There were no bids on your Reserve Price
Auctions that met the reserve price." In this case the Altair seller could
accept a bid of up to $9999 and end up owing Ebay $2.
Perhaps the Altair's ACTUAL (=in his head) reserve is considerably less than
$10000 and the person is simply trying to avoid the Final Value Fee.
<G>But is this ethical?
It should be noted that a winning BIDDER can also back out of a sale if
their bid didn't meet the reserve.
>
>Hey, Bob. I just noticed that you are the current high bidder! We
only
>know a few things about you: you're in it for the money, you've got a
>bunch of Altairs that you got "cheap", and you're an ethical guy. So,
>what's with the first momentum-setting bid?
>
>-- Doug
Doug,
To do this all in one post, first let me reply
to Marcus when he says...
"Ebay takes 5% of the bid
regardless of whether or not the reserve was met.
So if last time the bids went up to
$5000 - Ebay has billed him $250 + $2".
Marcus, When I need information relating to the
history of microcomputers I go to the experts. Doug
Yowza is an example. So, while certainly not an Ebay
expert, I'm a very experienced Ebay seller and you
can rely on my understanding of Ebay's terms.
Ebay charges a seller from 25 cents to $2 to list
each item (determined by the dollar amount of that
item's minimum and/or reserve). If the item does
not meet the reserve there is absolutely no further
fee charged by Ebay. If the item sells, the commission
charged by Ebay is as follows... 5% of the amount up
to $25. $2.5% of the amount between $25 and $1000.
And only 1% of the amount above $1000. The Altair
seller has been charged a total of $2 by Ebay, at this point.
If the Altair were now to sell for $10,000, the total
of fees and commisions he would pay to Ebay is
an additional $115.62.
Now, Doug, you ask "what's with the first momentum
setting bid"?
You have (and I suppose understandably so) jumped to
a wrong conclusion. If you have read all my words to
the readers of this list it should be apparent that
I have been very candid with you. I have no interest
in "establishing a momentum". The fact is that I had
tentatively made a sale on one of my Altairs. That sale
was never consummated. With all of the mention of
list subscribers contacting the parties involved in the
auction - I think it is possible that may have contributed
to my losing a sale and may influence the seller in question.
For that reason, I placed a bid that is the highest I
am willing to pay (Yes I will pay $2500. If anyone wishes
to sell me his Altair, contact me directly). If the seller
is told by those outside of his auction that his expectations
are silly then I am hoping he will sell me the computer
for that amount. It costs me nothing to try.
But, Doug, now that I have answered your question, you
have failed to answer mine. I would be very interested in
hearing your answer.
Bob Wood
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
At 08:00 PM 8/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Strange coincidence, I just picked up another today (my second, the first
>doesn't pass self test).
Hint! Mine didn't either at first. It gave a bunch of ROM errors. I
unplugged the ROM drawer and it passed self tests. Then I took out the
ROMs and found one with one of it's pins bent under. I straightened the
pin and put everything back in place and now it passes all tests.
I know only a little about it from the manuals I
>got with the first. The only thing I know about the keyboards is that
>they are difficult to find, as I've never seen one yet.
I can believe it. I know a guy that has six 4041s and he still hasn't
found a keyboard.
>
>Its 68000 based and has a backplane inside so you can add or remove cards.
>If you look carefully at the bottom face of the unit, you'll notice it is
>a little cover about 1" high and the length of the front of the machine.
>You can pry it off with a coin, then pull on the rubber handle you see.
>Out pops a ROM tray. The one I got today has the Graphics ROM and
>thegraphics printing option.
Mine has the Program Developement ROMs and two other ROMs with Tektronix
part numbers but no name. They show up as PD, XO and IO in the self test
failure listing.
>
>You don't necessarily need the keyboard to program it although it helps
>I'm sure.
I'll bet! I'm still looking for a keyboard for my HP 9915s too!
Joe
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>Ever onward.
>
> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 08/09/98]
>
>
>While there, I found a slim manual to the CDC 6000 series
machines.
>Something about SCOPE...I suppose I ought to read it.
>
There were two OSes for the CDC 6000/7000 series, SCOPE and
KRONOS. KRONOS was the full blown OS, lots of feature,
utilities, etc. while SCOPE was the stripped down OS (I think it
predated KRONOS). As I remember SCOPE didn't really offer much
more than MSDOS in terms of services, it was mostly batch
oriented, big jobs, CPU intensive, not much timeshare support.
KRONOS was a fairly good timeshare environment for it's day, not
in the TOPS-20 league but of course very fast, being a 60 bit
Cray design.
Jack Peacock
Perhaps Bob wants to ensure that the guy has to pay the 5% to Ebay.
- Doug
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Yowza [SMTP:yowza@yowza.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 9:22 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Another Altiar up for Auction
>
> Hey, Bob. I just noticed that you are the current high bidder! We only
> know a few things about you: you're in it for the money, you've got a
> bunch of Altairs that you got "cheap", and you're an ethical guy. So,
> what's with the first momentum-setting bid?
>
> -- Doug
> Actually I'm still running one, in a Leading Edge model D Xt box that
> does cool exceptionally well. The power supply (and the fan in it) is
> behind the disk stack and exceptionally well cooled. I put a second fan
> in the 486/66 for that reason... to hot.
>
> The altair taught me well about heat... and lousy air flow.
>
> Allison
>
One of the computers that had a VERY bad airflow was the Tandy 2500SX.
They used to have one at my school, and someone left it on over the weekend
(turned off the monitor and forgot the computer). When they got back on
Monday, the fan in the P/S had stopped (bearings had somehow frozen), the
HD was still going, the top of the case (plastic) had gotten soft, and the
monitor had sunk into the top of the case. The hard drive was an old
Microscience 72(? may have been 80 with a lot of bad sectors) MB that
sounded like a full-height Maxtor when it was running. Nothing worked
anymore, except the HD would spin up. It was the only computer from that
school that I couldn't revive. Not even the RAM chips worked anymore.
Would excessive heat caused the bearings in the fan to freeze? The fan was
working when the computer was turned on, but was totally frozen (VERY tight
when removed from P/S) on Monday. The computer was a mini-desktop, and
only had a few vents near the bottom of the front panel and only a 2 1/2"
fan.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
In looking at the PDP-11/03's that I got today, one thing is very obvious.
They've got disk controllers that are useless to me. The controllers are
>from a company called 'Xebec', and it is my understanding that they went to
special drives.
Now I know that the /03's are SLOW, however, they're in a nice little case
so I'm looking at them thinking, hmmmm. I wonder if I can put a DILOG
floppy controller I've got in one of them. What I'm wondering is do such
things as drive controllers care about the 18bit / 22bit differences of the
backplane? At least it's my understanding that a PDP-11/03 has a 18bit
backplane.
On a separate note, I ended up with 3 more VT100's with this, and one of
them had a loose top, so I took a look inside, and noticed that it has what
looks to be a Q-Bus backplane. What is the story here? Can I put some
cards in here and have a working PDP-11? (I know figure the odds) I took
a look through the VT100 tech manual I got today, but couldn't find
anything about the backplane.
On a positive note, I've finally got some documentation, so maybe I'll
quite asking so many stupid questions. :^) On that note, I think I'll
send this, and spend some time trying to find some shelf space for said
documentation :^(
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
At 12:46 PM 8/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I fell very truly sorry for you. In a computer you have such an awesome
>and powerful device, which can educate you in more than a few ways.
>Newer equipment to a lesser degree, it's all black-boxes and corporate
secrets
>now, but older gear is perfect for finding out how things work. It's a shame
A quick question... How many people know how to work on their cars? How
many drive older vehicles without as much "black-box" stuff?
I think that automobiles are similar, in that knowing how they work, and
how to work on them, is really cool, and yet, a lot of us drive modern
machines (<20yo) and take them to mechanics, without ever thinking about
them. That's not wrong, but if you can see the similarity, it may help to
understand those who use computers without caring about how they work, or
without wanting to work on them themselves.
(P.S., I drive a '59 Land Rover(s) and my girlfriend's '89 Mazda.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Don't know if this is classic but I just got an entire VMS 5.2 'grey
wall'free. Allison - can I reliably use this as a reference for my 5.5
system?
Now to learn eve and then VAX Macro.
Regards
Pete
Coming back from a long road trip to Radiofest in Elgin, IL, I stopped by
Fair Radio Sales in Lima, OH. On a shelf I saw what looked to be a decent
Kaypro 2X. If anyone is interested, drop them an email (search the Web
for the address). I have no idea what they wanted for it, nor its
electrical condition.
While there, I found a slim manual to the CDC 6000 series machines.
Something about SCOPE...I suppose I ought to read it.
I am also now the proud owner of an SGI 4D/380 (and most of another
4D/380). Physically it is in very good shape, but apparently it is quite
sick. 8 processors, buckets of SIMMs, neeto graphics, but the best thing
is the "CPU Power Meter" on the front of the cabinet...
Does anyone have IRIX on 1/4" tape?
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
--- You wrote:
> If they're not willing to sell them, I know two places here in Florida
>that are! They scrap out MACs by the dozens!
>
> Joe
>--- end of quote ---
>
>Oooh! Where? Where?
>
Two scrappers located in Melbourne, Florida. I can get you their phone
numbers but I doubt they'd be interested in shipping anything unless you're
willing to pay a handsome price.
Joe
--- end of quote ---
I live within (notveryreasonable) driving distance -- please do tell me the phone numbers, or at least the names and I can call information. Thank you!
-- MB
>Actually, it costs him nothing to relist. The initial
>listing cost him $2 but he is afforded one free relist
>if the item does not meet it's reserve.
This is only partly true: as soon as someone bids - Ebay takes 5% of the bid
regardless of whether or not the reserve was met. So if last time the bids
went up to $5000 - Ebay has billed him $250 + $2.
So I don't know why he doesn't just start the lowest bid at his reserve
price???? This is the same guy who lists a URL to an Ebay hints and tips
page. Perhaps he has some kind of psychological angle...
Markus Blumrich - mailto:ab594@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Student: Physiology & Computer Science / University of Saskatchewan
http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab594/Profile.html ICQ:12361373
"Who's the more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi
< > No, the PC DB9 is the mutant. ;) The DB25s are true RS232 with full
< > handshake.
< >
< Hmmm...I'll check with my breakout box tomorrow and check the docs on th
< terminal server. Something goofy is up. If the terminal server was
< seeing the MVII, I would have been able to telnet to the port. Hmmm...
DCE vs DTE...
< > The RD can be used but you'll need the customer formatter to format it
< > the RQDX3 instead of the DMIII controller.
< >
< Aha. I knew it. Is it hard or easy to get?
I don't have it but it's not that hard to find or copy. I use a MV2000
or RQDX3 formatter on PDP-11.
< No BASIC. I was a bit irritated with that. I think I need to find a
< decent VMS distribution on magtape or a TK50 cart. I have the controlle
< for and a TS05 6250 bpi streaming tape drive. Not hooked up yet but if
< the MVII is any indication, it'll be just fine.
Well you can get the CDrom (see decus). Even if you don't have a CDrom
on a VAX you may find someone that does.
< Anyone want to trade one-a-dem for an 11/24 cpu and 512k memory board?
< (Somehow I don't think anyone will go for that.) SCSI is where I always
< seem to fall down BTW. I need one for my 11/84 so I don't have to run
< the RA80 that's in it. Eeek. Big nasty power hog.
unibus is always harder to find eithernet and SCSI boards for. For Qbus
that would be less difficult as the DEQNA/DELQA and several vendors for
scsi cards.
Allison
I took a look at this myself; I had to go see for myself.
People, I've gotta tell you, this is way past the merely
crazy-- this is total, unbridled, runaway *insanity* !
What is *our* hobby comming to? Whats next? Celebs
pooling their money for the original source listing
of AppleBASIC? (Complete with annotations by Bill Himself,
sealed in an argon-filled case?!?!)
This is becomming worse than those damned BeanieBabies (tm).
Oy, I think I need a stiff drink now . . .
Jeff
At 04:05 PM 8/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>When I saw the final bid on that altair, i nearly peed myself.
>
>Jim, if yer listening, I'm sending ya a check!!!!
>(not for $4K tho)
>
>Four IMSAI switch paddles and a SOL Keyboard kit :)
>
>Tony
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kai Kaltenbach [mailto:kaikal@MICROSOFT.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 1998 3:44 PM
>> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>> Subject: RE: Altair prices
>>
>>
>> Geez, I'll bet our own Jim Willing is pretty disappointed
>> that his only sold
>> for $4213.
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=24405966
>>
>> What the heck is with that? Two Altairs auctioned
>> simultaneously, with a 3x
>> price differential.
>>
>> Guess I'm sitting on a fortune with my 5 Altairs, but I'd
>> never sell them
>> (and I mean that, whereas Jim used to say he'd never sell his either).
>>
>> Kai
--- Joe wrote:
At 06:03 PM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>If they are willing to sell the systems as is I would like to buy several
>of them, Please ask them
If they're not willing to sell them, I know two places here in Florida
that are! They scrap out MACs by the dozens!
Joe
--- end of quote ---
Oooh! Where? Where?
-- Marion
< Dare we attempt to create a Boston area computer users group with our
< raggedy group?
Tony,
That may be a good idea. Basic meetings would be the first step.
Allison
Hi,
This is a message for all of you in the Twin Cities (Minneapolis, St Paul
and surroundings)
I've allways wanted to meet some of you guys so I'll try to organize a get
together open to anyone. Here's the scoop:
The place: Tequilaberries in Coon Rapids (all you can eat prime ribs for
around $15)
The date: Friday August 28
The time: 6:00 pm
The people: Me and anyone who cares to join but you must repond to me in
advance since I'll probably have to make reservations.
Please respond to fauradon(a)pclink.com
THanks and see you soon.
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
I got another HP toy today. Another HP 9821! I already have one and
this is only the third one in existance that I know of. A collector in New
York has the other one. Does anyone know where I can find some manuals
for a HP 9820 or HP 9821?
Joe
i started a new job last week; one of my duties is going thru a
warehouse load (no joke) of older mac systems. everything from se30's to
older powerPC machines. question is this: since they all are being
scrapped and i cannot save them, anyone want me to pull some roms for
them? or any other useful components? let me know WHAT they are, and
WHERE they are, as I am not a mac tech. more than happy to see what i
can do for you people out there who want these.
-Eric
< At any rate, are the female DB-25 bulkhead connectors true RS-232 or som
< weirdie mutation like the console DB-9 port?
No, the PC DB9 is the mutant. ;) The DB25s are true RS232 with full
handshake.
< Also, I've got a DECMate III in the garage with no monitor or keyboard.
< But it's got an RX50 and some RD series drive. Obviously the RX50 can b
< moved to the MVII since it doesn't have one (but does have an RQDX3) but
< what about the RD series hard disk? I'd like to put it on the MVII for
< extra storage capacity but I seem to recall from playing with the
The RD can be used but you'll need the customer formatter to format it for
the RQDX3 instead of the DMIII controller.
< Also, although it includes Macro (of course) it includes NO other
< language development tools. Apparently it was a turnkey type system for
No basic?
< reading utility meters. Field service last logged-in in '92!!! And it'
< got 13000some blocks free on the disk. I'm tempted to get things like
< the GNU C binaries for it etc etc...and I always give in to that sort of
< temptation! =)
More disk, need more disk.
It's good little box. Add a scsi controller like the CMD units and hang a
real good sides disk... and wheee.
Allison
>Hey, Providence is not too far away.
Maybe I should head down that way some time with Allison...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Hello - I just joined this list and thought I'd introduce myself. I'm an
avid classic computer collector and a big fan of the TRS-80/Tandy Color
Computers which were sold by Radio Shack. I have a homepage which is
dedicated to them:
http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab594/coco.html
I have approximately 30 computers in my collection (if you include
'doubles'). Of interest are an Apple III and an Apple Lisa (Mac XL), an AT&T
Unix PC, Commodore Plus4, a backlit Apple Mac Portable (not the powerbook -
the very early one) and some odd little early computer called a "Micro
Professor". It has a chicklett keyboard - came from Japan and has a
built-in BASIC language, but not much else. Since money is tight right now
(and what spending money I do have usually goes to my Marklin model railway)
I'm more interested in picking up the cheaper collectibles - things like a
Commodore 16, Mattel Aquarius, Atari 800 (not xl) etc etc. Have you seen the
Altairs on Ebay lately! Wow, $10000 reserve on one of them. Hope to chat
with you all soon!
Markus Blumrich - mailto:ab594@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Student: Physiology & Computer Science / University of Saskatchewan
http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab594/Profile.html ICQ:12361373
"Who's the more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi
I have an old Tandy 1000TL that needs a HD. The one that is currently in
it is a Western Digital 20MB IDE (with stepper motor). Although this drive
is still operating, it is VERY slow. Does anyone have a 20, 30, or 40 MB
3.5" XT/XTA IDE drive (without stepper) that they'd like to part with?
ThAnX in advance,
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:31:03 +0000
From: John Huddleston <jlhudd(a)sos.net>
Subject: The New MORBBS
Hi,
You may have heard of the old Morrow Owners Review Bulletin Board that
was run by Sypko Andrae for so many years until he transfered ownership
to Jay and John Huddleston of Anacortes, Washington. We had the MORBBS
for a couple years until cost became a problem and we were forced to
shutdown the MORBBS. But now there is a newer, more accessible, and
definetly cheaper MORBBS on the internet. The new board is hosted by
sos.net and there are two sections to the Morrow page. The first
section is located at http://www.sos.net/~jlhudd/morrow.html and it is
designed to let you ask for help or for CPM related files from Jay's
huge archive. The second section of the page is the messageboard
itself. You can find the messageboard at
http://www.sos.net/~jlhudd/bbs/index.html. The messageboard works
through a CGI script written in the PERL programming language. You can
post messages on the board just like on the old bulletin board only
quicker. This way you can ask for help in a message and everyone who
reads it will be able to offer their services. The message board is
also useful for announcing any hardware, software, etc that is related
to Morrow computers and/or CPM software. You aren't just limited to
Morrow though. Anything you wish to discuss about old computers is
acceptable. There are going to be many helpful post on the message
board in the near future with links to helpful or interesting Morrow/CPM
websites. I hope that you are still interested in Morrows and old
computers and that will join us at our new messageboard soon! Thanks
for your time,
John Huddleston
the Morrow Online Homepage:
http://www.sos.net/~jlhudd/morrow.html
the Morrow Owners Review Online Messageboard:
http://www.sos.net/~jlhudd/bbs/index.html
----------
> From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Philips XT with 768K
> Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 7:22 PM
>
> Those hard disks were very slow, and noisy too. They also suffer from
> sudden head stiction. You are lucky it is a Western Digital.
> Older machines had Miniscribe hard disks which were worse.
>
I've found that out. A 10MB MiniScribe that I in a Tandy 1000 (no suffix)
sounded like a weed whacker and started to smoke when it finally went bad.
> You can switch off the XT-IDE hard disk port with switch 8 of the
> DIP switches in the Philips XT and install a regular MFM disk controller
> and hard disk in the machine. Works like in any other XT.
>
> Kees
>
> --
>
> Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
> Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
>
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
>
Probably the same ex-MITS person who contacted me last weekend.
Kai
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 3:12 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Another Altair up for Auction
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Dellett, Anthony wrote:
> Same guy. Dunno, might be same machine. $10,000 reserve!
Looks like the same machine. So, that means the record price for an
Altair is a mere $4213 (!). Probably some slick Altair dealer contacted
Ms. Lemay and offered her a shiny low-mileage Altair for only half of her
$12,100 bid.
-- Doug
Yeah, right.
This whole thing's a put-on, I'm convinced.
Jeff
At 05:08 PM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Same guy. Dunno, might be same machine. $10,000 reserve!
>
>Holycow!
>
>Tony
>
I was offered a NightHawk 5800 computer today. What the &*&% is it? I've
never heard of one. It was made by Harris Computer Systems and it's
supposed to have 16Mb, Memory tape unit, a 5802 processor, 64 Meg Local
Memory, 64 Meg Global Memeory, 2 slot front plane (front plane???), SCSSI
Interface (no that's not a typo), Eagle Eatha Net Card, 4 mm DAT drive and
two 1 G hard drives. The operating system and a LARGE pile of manuals are
included. Any one know anything about this? ANY idea what it's worth?
Is it usefull for anything?
Joe
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Larry Anderson [mailto:foxnhare@goldrush.com]
| Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:54 PM
| To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
| Subject: Re: C64 for $800
|
| just try
| to find docs for a PET MTU graphics board (like I am), I have a collection
of
| a lifetime.
Hmm, I'm pretty sure I have docs for that. What was the MTU again? I have
like ridiculously extensive PET docs including the service manuals and
service update notices, service test tapes & disks, etc.
Heck, come to think of it, I have a PET high res graphics board of some kind
in a box someplace. Is that what this thing is?
Kai
On Aug 18, 7:57, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> Subject: RSX-11M v4.1
> OK, last night I tried copying the damaged RL02's that contain what is
> supposed to be a RSX-11M v4.1 distribution. Unfortunatly two of the
disks
> seem to be damaged. I was able to recover 3/4 of one, and boot it in the
> Supnik emulator, the other wouldn't even mount.
>
> Now, I've got a question about these packs, and thier labels.
>
> RSX-11M V4.1 |
> RSXM35 V1 | I was able to copy 8,638,976 bytes of
> RLUTIL V2 | 10,485,760. It will boot.
> Copied 06/19/84 | Fault light now comes on when try
to load
>
> RSX-11M V4.1
> EXCPRV V1
> HLPDCL V2
> Copied 06/19/84
>
> RSX-11M V4.1
> MCRSRC V1
> Copied 06/19/84
>
> RSX-11M V4.1 |
> ACSQ22 V1 | Fault light comes on when I try to load
it.
> UPDATE V2 |
> ACS MODS V3 |
> Copied 06/19/84 rev 06/14/84 |
>
> Unfortuntaly I suspect that the first pack is the most important, and
based
> on the SYSGEN documentation, I need the first three packs to do a SYSGEN.
> What on earth is the third pack?
MCR is the standard command line interpreter, prior to DCL, and that disk
is the source for building it.
> Also, is this the standard way for a RSX-11M distribution to be packaged?
No, it looks like you have an RL01 distribution (which IIRC came on 6
packs) but copied to RL02s, two RL01s to a pack. It's been a long time,
but I think RL02 distributions were 4 packs, called something like RSXM35
(that's a bootable baseline minimal system, with the SYSGEN stuff on it,
like yours), MAPSRC (sources to build a mapped system) UNMSRC (to build an
unmapped system) and the last pack had all the extra software (EDT, DCL,
and friends). The fourth pack you have is possibly an update and may not
be necessary. But my memory may be playing its usual tricks.
> Once I've got archival copies made of all this I'll be more willing to
play
> with the packs. On a positive note, I can play with the images in the
> emulator while copying them. I think I've still got over a dozen packs
to
> go through. I'll probably finish the RL02's tonite.
Best of luck! I suspect you have enough to rebuild the system, if you can
read the packs, and perhaps there are more amongst the ones you have yet to
check.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
>i started a new job last week; one of my duties is going thru a
>warehouse load (no joke) of older mac systems. everything from se30's to
>older powerPC machines. question is this: since they all are being
>scrapped and i cannot save them
Why can't you save them?
>anyone want me to pull some roms for them? or any other useful components?
let me know WHAT
>they are, and WHERE they are
How about a Power Mac motherboard or two? :-)
More realistically, I'd be interested in any PowerPC processors & ROMs.
Some of this stuff is probably more trouble to remove than its worth,
though. How much did you want for the componets?
Sincerely,
Tom Owad
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
I'm passing this along from the Dead Media Collectorz list in case anyone
is interested in vintage calculators.
R.
From: "Seth D. Carmichael" <scarmike(a)tmn.com>
To: "Dead Media Project Collectors List!" <collectorz(a)lists.tmn.com>
Subject: [collectorz] FW: for collectorz
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:56:25 -0400
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Please respond directly to Nick: nbodley(a)tiac.net
Seth
***************************************
>Now this is sounding fun. One question, do you feed the output from the
>SLU to the input of the VT?
You should be able to do that... but the VT103 had some special
paddle board which plugged into the connector on the VT100
basic video board and which provided a connector (2x5) which
connects to something like an MXV11-B, and a second connector
which also attaches to the MXV11-B (or DLV11-J) and routes the
signals through to the external connector (if I remember
correctly - otherwise it provides a separate external
conenction).
I'll have to open up my VT103 at work one of these days to get
the info for you (like part numbers).
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
> Wow. I didn't know that anybody besides Commodore ever used XT IDE. I
have
> a couple of WD-98???-X drives, one in a Commodore Colt that I use for ROM
> burning. IIRC, WD made 20Mb and 40Mb XT IDE before moving on to AT IDE.
> Commodore even designed-in an XT-IDE port on their A2091 and A590 disk
> controllers for the A2000 and A500, respectively. The A590 did ship with
> 20Mb XT drives; the A2091 did not have the 40 pin connector soldered in
place.
> It does work; I have retrofitted one. They are slow.
>
> And, yes, the ST251/251-1 are both MFM. I use them on ancient DEC
hardware.
>
> -ethan
>
>
I believe the Tandy 1000 TL/2 and TL/3 (not sure about the TL/2) also had a
built-on XT-IDE controller. The TL that I have has a HardCard.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
(in his best Rodney King voice)
Can't we all just get along?
Actually, for me, Providence is quite a haul :)
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Donzelli [mailto:william@ans.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 1:54 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: Tony - SOL docs and MIT flea market
>
>
> > >Dare we attempt to create a Boston area computer users
> group with our
> > >raggedy group?
> >
> > I'd join...!
>
> Hey, Providence is not too far away.
>
> (Blatant RetroComputing Society ot Rhode Island plug).
>
> William Donzelli
> william(a)ans.net
>
Okay, which board do you have?
Jeff
At 12:25 PM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ethan:
>>
>> Try www.natinst.com. Far as I know national still supports prettyy much
all
>> of their hardware.
>
>When I first got the cards last year, I tried them. I couldn't find
>a reference to my board. I wasn't surprised (the board is over 10 years
old),
>so I stopped digging.
>
>Maybe they have added more to their support page recently.
>
>Thanks,
>
>-ethan
>
Ethan:
Try www.natinst.com. Far as I know national still supports prettyy much all
of their hardware.
At 09:15 AM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> > I came up with an IEEE488 8-bit card, with drivers. Anyone want it?
>> >
>> > manney(a)lrbcg.com
>> > "Enough is abundance to the wise." -- Euripides
>
>What is the card? What drivers? I have a couple of 8-bit IEEE-488 cards
>and _no_ drivers. It's a standard, but old, National Instruments card. If
>you tell me the model number of yours, I'll check it against mine when I get
>home. I'd love drivers for it.
>
>-ethan
>
At 09:56 PM 8/17/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote:
>OK, it's been killing me, so I've just gotta ask. What do you do with a
>C64 running at 20MHz? Play a *really* fast game of Ms. Pacman?
>
>-- Doug (from his 200MHz IMSAI 8080)
Tsk, tsk! ONLY 200mhz??? Didn't you see the IMSAI overclocking FAQ???
:)
-
- john higginbotham ____________________________
- webmaster www.pntprinting.com -
- limbo limbo.netpath.net -
< Well, Joan did want to start a club called Computer Preservationists of
< Massachusetts (CPM for short). Maybe this might be the time to get it
< goin'.
Sounds like a good thing. There are people in RI and south RI doing
this as well.
Allison
< then wire-wrap one slot AB<->CD... Also, when I did it, I went down
< to one of the Digital Stockrooms and picked up some specialized
< 'power strips' which were generally used for bussing DC on the
< backplane, but could also be used to connect signal pins. It was
< a copper strip which had alternating pin-sized holes and large
< holes which wouldn't contact the pin... Perfect for connecting
< corresponding pins of successive backplane slots...
I have a bunch of them still, for exactly that use! Handy for home made
backplanes!
Allison
< two minutes? that is slow... I can boot my TU-58 based system
< in 30 seconds... (I engineered an optimized TU58 many years
< ago when people within Digital were asking how to get it to boot
< faster). It involves specific placement of various RT-11
< files on one of the four recording tracks. For those who wanted
< the system to run faster once booted, you could additionally take
< the step of loading stuff into VM and rebooting it it...
Having done that (I have a system I can demonstrate) plus the VM: trick
it's possible to build a really nice system using TU58 only! It's in the
V5 RT11 doc set.
FYI for the 11/730 hackers the TU58 boot tape for that beast also has an
optimum order for faster booting.
< (depending on the rev of the 11/23... only Rev.C could
< do so).
I've found earlier revs do, but not all and they may fail diagnostics
while appearing to work normally. I try to reserve 11/23 (KDF11-A M8186)
to 256k unless I've verified it's a REV-C or later and tested it.
The later 11/23B (KDF11-B M8189) is Q22 and saves needing a boot rom/card.
They are common enough.
Allison
More like a crummy computer. I think the school had bought it used for $50
(or it was donated), and it wouldn't even run Win 3.1. It had Win 3.0 (1
MEG RAM). When I was looking at it, the power supply (this is from 1991)
pumped out a huge 32 watts. I'm surprised that the thing lasted as long as
it did.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Philips XT with 768K/heat
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 6:51 AM
>
>
> < Would excessive heat caused the bearings in the fan to freeze? The fan
> < working when the computer was turned on, but was totally frozen (VERY
ti
>
> The heat may have helped the fan fail but the do fail, the result is not
> good for some systems.
>
> Likely it was a crummy fan.
>
> Allison
>
The last VT103 I configured went to RCS/RI and it was tested with a
11/23B in it.
< Well, I always thought that RSX and RSTS/E were far
< better of with more memory. Also, with V5.0 of
< RT-11, the availability of 4 MBytes and a VM: was highly
< useful - not needed, but very nice. Of course, until
< recently, DEC memory boards were so expensive that
< more than 1/4 MByte was not worth while in any case as
< opposed to SIMMs with the PC. However, a half MByte
< board (M8067) is now so inexpensive that it is no longer
< a problem.
I have systems with 256k and more, with a hard disk having a ramdisk is
cute but not required. Doing a a non hacked system is far easier.
Also 4mb of DEC qbus ram (1mb cards) will severely load the BA11S boxes
I have never mind the Vt103 PS, I've done it. That box with 11/73, RQDX3,
DLV11j, LAV-11, RLV12, RXV211 and 4 memory cards overloaded the 340watt
PS! The disks were off seperate power. Heck the two RD52s and RX33
requires a 70W power supply.
< > A good package is a 11/23, 256kram, DLV11j, RQDX3, BDV11.
< > That gives you 4 serial ports, full memory without backplane mods,
< > RX50/RX33 floppy and MSCP hard disk (RDxx) and the BDV terminates
< > the bus plus supplies some of the desireable boots (no mscp).
<
< What hardware did you use to connect the RQDX3 to the RX50/RX33
< floppy drives? In general, I found the floppy to be far too slow
< and if I was jumping up the an RX33, for the same price (at current
< cost for a hard drive) I would prefer at least an RD51.
The BA123 disk distribution card M9058. I use both RX33 and RX50.
generally stuff for RX50 being more common I use that more though the
rx50 will read/write RX50. for a hard disk 30mb Quantum D540s (RD52)
as they are fast and reliable plus plenty of space. RD50, RD51, RD31,
RD32 are not worth the effort as they are slow or old.
< You can always power the disk drives with an auxiliary power
< supply from a PC. In that case, you can even have 2 hard
< drives and 2 floppies. Otherwise, with just the one hard
Danger Will Robinson. External MFM drives on seperate power means YOU
MUST POWER OFF THE DRIVE FIRST THEN THE SYSTEM. Failure to do so will
mean writing garbage to the disk at what ever track it's on. The fix is
easy reformat and reload the disk... Not something you want to do. It's
ok if they both power off at the same time. Many PC power supplies have
a switched outlet that can power the VT103.
< drive (under the tube), it is indeed on the edge of the PS
< if the VT103 supplies all the power. One other option I
Don't, the drives generate serious heat and that spot is poorly cooled.
< mentioned is that a SIGMA RQD11-B (MFM controller)
< uses about the same power as an RQDX3, but has BOOT
< ROMS. As a result, you can use just the dual 11/23 and
< no BDV11. Then there is enough internal power to run
That's handy but the disk is 30-37W and it's the back breaker. Going
with over 256k of ram invites the same problem. If you want a big system
get a decent box with adaquate cooling and power and use that.
< YES!! If run for a long time. But for short demos of
< an hour or less, the VT103 was highly effective. Most
< individuals who were familiar with the VT100 did not
< recognize the VT103. So when the demo was given,
< the first reaction was to ask about the computer - they
< saw only a VT100. We used to say that we had substituted
< clever squirrels inside the VT100 instead.
there were three differnt similar systems. PDT11/130 with TU58, VT103
and a MDS11-A. The latter two woere similar but slightly different
backplane.
< I even heard that someone had re-wired the backplane
< to allow a MicroVax II (ABCD slots for the first 2).
It would be easier to use a H9276 or other correct backplane in the
available space. Still the microvaxII and memory eats power in
a serious way.
< Now imagine if DEC had sprung the VT103 on the
< PC world as a PC at PC prices with a 150 watt power
Try more like a 300W ps to build want your talking about.
< supply (and a bigger fan) to easily allow hard drives under
< the tube. And later, had gone to the MicroVax II as
Why not the pro350/380, a well designed PDP-11 desktop system.
If you want a tiny vax get a VS2000 or one of the 3100 series.
< a standard option. The 10 year late DEC PCs would
< have been initially based on the PDP-11 and could
10 years late???? The Pro350 was in the market the same time as the PCxt
and the PDT11/150 predates the PC by a few years.
< then have used the VAX. The only thing lacking was
< a pricing model to compete with the XT and the AT
The PRO350 competed with a loaded PCxt with CGA color and a hard disk for
very similar $$$$. for similar $$$ inthe PCxt space was the Rainbow100.
< I understand that a total of 32 solder connections are
< required. I once saw the re-wired backplane. It
< seemed to have been done with wire-wrap wire
< since the solder points were so small.
The ones I did had longer WW pins on the backplane (BDV-11s) and I used
a standard bussing strip I have. Saves megga pain WW'ing a backplane.
Allison
>> < If anyone has a VT103 and needs some help with
>> < how to set it up as well to convert to a 22 bit backplane,
>> < likely both Megan Gentry and I are able to supply the
>> < necessary technical information.
>>
>> I've built a few and have data as well.
>>
>> Allison
>>
>Someone -- post the wire wrap info...
If I remember correctly, you buss pins BC1, BD1, BE1 and BF1...
With a Q/CD backplane, that would mean just four sets of
wires down the AB side (BC1-BC2-BC3, etc, BD1-BD2-BD3, etc, etc)
For a Q/Q backplane, that would mean
BC1-DC1-DC2-BC2-BC3-DC3, etc (maintaining the serpentine)
BD1-DD1-DD2-BD2-BD3-DD3, etc...
BE1...
BF1...
or you could do what I did... bus the AB and CD sides separately,
then wire-wrap one slot AB<->CD... Also, when I did it, I went down
to one of the Digital Stockrooms and picked up some specialized
'power strips' which were generally used for bussing DC on the
backplane, but could also be used to connect signal pins. It was
a copper strip which had alternating pin-sized holes and large
holes which wouldn't contact the pin... Perfect for connecting
corresponding pins of successive backplane slots...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Well, Joan did want to start a club called Computer Preservationists of
Massachusetts (CPM for short). Maybe this might be the time to get it
goin'.
Tony (who runs off to find a home for the Data General arriving in
september)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 12:43 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: Tony - SOL docs and MIT flea market
>
>
> < Dare we attempt to create a Boston area computer users
> group with our
> < raggedy group?
>
> Tony,
>
> That may be a good idea. Basic meetings would be the first step.
>
> Allison
>
OK, last night I tried copying the damaged RL02's that contain what is
supposed to be a RSX-11M v4.1 distribution. Unfortunatly two of the disks
seem to be damaged. I was able to recover 3/4 of one, and boot it in the
Supnik emulator, the other wouldn't even mount.
Now, I've got a question about these packs, and thier labels.
RSX-11M V4.1 |
RSXM35 V1 | I was able to copy 8,638,976 bytes of
RLUTIL V2 | 10,485,760. It will boot.
Copied 06/19/84 | Fault light now comes on when try to load
RSX-11M V4.1
EXCPRV V1
HLPDCL V2
Copied 06/19/84
RSX-11M V4.1
MCRSRC V1
Copied 06/19/84
RSX-11M V4.1 |
ACSQ22 V1 | Fault light comes on when I try to load it.
UPDATE V2 |
ACS MODS V3 |
Copied 06/19/84 rev 06/14/84 |
Unfortuntaly I suspect that the first pack is the most important, and based
on the SYSGEN documentation, I need the first three packs to do a SYSGEN.
What on earth is the third pack?
Also, is this the standard way for a RSX-11M distribution to be packaged?
On a semi positive note, the drives (2 RL02, and 2 RL01) came with 2 RL02
packs and a RL01 pack in them. The two RL02's contain a bootable system
that appears to have the Whitesmith C on it. I'm not sure about the RL01.
I'm still hoping the Whitesmith C distribution on RL01 is OK.
Once I've got archival copies made of all this I'll be more willing to play
with the packs. On a positive note, I can play with the images in the
emulator while copying them. I think I've still got over a dozen packs to
go through. I'll probably finish the RL02's tonite.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
Dare we attempt to create a Boston area computer users group with our
raggedy group?
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 11:06 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: Tony - SOL docs and MIT flea market
>
>
> < If people out here in the east are really interested, I'm willing to
> < lend my convention experience... Lemme warn ya beforehand,
> Its alot of
> < work.
>
> I wasn't thinking of a real convention... more like a remote tailgate
> party.
>
> Allison
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:31:42 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com>
> Subject: C64 for $800
>
> I'm no Commodore expert, but is there really anything in this lot that's
> worth more than a coupla bux, or is this just the alex-factor at work
> again?
Actually there's quite a lot of really good Commodore 64/128 stuff there...
> 1- C128-D Computer, with keyboard and internal 1571 disk drive. Jiffy Dos is built in with the switch
> on the front of the machine. In GREAT condition.
the 128D is a nice computer when you find one that works reliably. $30
> 1- Super CPU 128 with 8 Megs installed. Will put the 128-D at 20 mhz.
This is a 20 Mghz accellerator for the 128, it was just put on the market this
year. Probably good for $150 alone.
> 1- CMD RamLink with 12 Megs, includes the HDD Cable and battery backup.
Nice REU unit, does a RAM disk with it's memory and allows for fast parallel
access to CMD Hard Drives. Another $100.
> 1- 1581 Disk Drive... with Jiffy Dos
Somewhat hard to get maybe $40 at best.
> 1- CMD FD-2000 Disk Drive. 1.6 meg floppies yeah!
Improvement over the 1581, lets you also use 1.44 md disks and with right
software access IBM disks too. $75.
> 1- CMD 2 GIGAbyte Hard Drive that looks CHERRY New!
A CMD Hard Drive for your Commodore 64/128 is a must for the commodore fan,
Probably about $200 at most.
> 1- Commodore 2002 40/80 Color Monitor
Nice Monitor, can be used on Amigas too... $40.
> 1-1541 Disk Drive... Yes, WITH Jiffy Dos
> 1- 1571 Disk Drive with.... Jiffy DOS!
> 1- C64c Computer
Ok, I guess... Not too terribly exciting there... Maybe $50
> 1- Action Replay Cartridge (believe its v4 or 5)
Get $15 probably from me, I prefer Super Snapshot myself.
> At least 30+ Origional Programs
'Paid for Software' A buck a piece without knowing what it is... $30
> A whole GEOS COLLECTION, Origional in boxes.
I'm not much of a GEOS Fan. I could resell it for probably $20... Though
with an original GEOS 64 2.0 disk I coulde upgrade to the recent GEOS upgrade
- Wheels, which sounds pretty hot.
> Over 300+ 5.25 floppies, all kinds o stuff.
Read Pirated I'd go up to $30 hoping there would be a few gems of 64 software
lore hidden away.
> Once again, this is a once in a lifetime Commodore Collection. If you can pry this from my hands you've
> gotten the BEST Commodore Hardware that has ever been available anywhere.
Lifetime, no, Heck I could collect that all in a year at a fraction, just try
to find docs for a PET MTU graphics board (like I am), I have a collection of
a lifetime.
> Everything... Is in VERY GOOD working order, many things are in fantastic shape. No junk
> whatsoever. (Well I didn't go thru all 300+ floppies, treat those as "BLANKS"
>
> I should mention, many manuals and software for the CMD items ARE INCLUDED! The FD, the HDD, THE RL and the SCPU 128.
>
> Now all you gotta do is....
> Show me da Money! :)
Total about $765 dollars, not to say I would bid on it, but, it is a nice list
of equipment, and the current price is not all that out there. You can tell
by the list the guy was either a Commodore BBS sysop or heavily into GEOS,
only those two groups buy heavily into RAMLinks and mass storage units. I
Don't recognize the name Ice BBS though.
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363
Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at:
http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
< Would excessive heat caused the bearings in the fan to freeze? The fan
< working when the computer was turned on, but was totally frozen (VERY ti
The heat may have helped the fan fail but the do fail, the result is not
good for some systems.
Likely it was a crummy fan.
Allison
I also have a neat XT. It's not a Phillips, but a Tandy 1000. It has 768K
RAM, and a 12MHz 286 processor. Only, I still have the problem of not
being able to access the upper memory. Being a Tandy, it's even harder to
find a driver. Another setback is it's HD. It's a 20MB Western digital -
and slow as a turtle. Does anyone, by any chance, have a spare
XT-compatible IDE HD without a stepper motor driving the heads??
ThAnX,
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
> It was a neat machine for an XT. I don't recall if I ever checked to see
if it
> was using that extra memory or if it had any SW with it. My friend will
be
> delighted to know that he can squeeze out a little extra ram for
memory-hungry
> DOS programs.
>
> ciao larry
>
> lwalker(a)interlog.com
< That, is not the HD heat problems...cooling air was poorly done in
< both installation and case design. Old Compaq Deskpro cases have
< that in mind. ST225 got real hot too so need to watch that on any
< 5.25" hds and insure cooling is good.
Amen to that. Heat is a bad thing for computers or their peripherals.
Most suffer from to much heat, and too much heat around the disk stack.
< Those ST251's have rapidly died out around here,
Actually I'm still running one, in a Leading Edge model D Xt box that
does cool exceptionally well. The power supply (and the fan in it) is
behind the disk stack and exceptionally well cooled. I put a second fan
in the 486/66 for that reason... to hot.
The altair taught me well about heat... and lousy air flow.
Allison
< If people out here in the east are really interested, I'm willing to
< lend my convention experience... Lemme warn ya beforehand, Its alot of
< work.
I wasn't thinking of a real convention... more like a remote tailgate
party.
Allison
A minor success story compared with some I read here, but I wanted to
share it with you...
This weekend I finally got my Tektronix 4052 graphics computer loading
and saving on a Commodore 8050 disk drive. The problems:
Commodore's weird handling of IEEE-488 protocol, especially with OPEN
and CLOSE. This requires bit 7 (the 128s bit) to be set when sending a
secondary address; bit 4 - usually the 16s bit of the address - tells
the drive whether it's an open or a close.
This was easily solved - the Tektronix WBYTE statement gives full
control over such things.
But the Tek is designed as a tape based machine. You FIND a file on the
tape and type OLD to load it. The machine then resets and loads the
program.
On a disk, you WBYTE @40,240: some bytes to specify the file name. But
if you type OLD @8,0: it asserts IFC during the reset, thus causing the
drive to have forgotten all about your program by the time it comes to
load it...
So I toyed with the idea of cutting the IFC line in a suitable cable.
But then I came across the APPEND statement. "APPEND @I/O address:line
number" loads a program without resetting, renumbering it to start at
the specified line. Neat.
So I now have a program to display the directory of the disk, prompt you
for a filename and APPEND the file on the end of itself. It then
performs an INIT (initialise variables, IFC and things) and drops into
the program.
Saving is easier, so less automated. You type something like
WBYTE @40,241:48,58,80,82,79,71,82,65,77,32,78,65,77,69,-13
WBYTE @63:
SAVE @8,1
WBYTE @40,225,63:
Not perfect, but it works. If anyone has an 8050 at the VCF, I'll
happily demonstrate!
Now, has anyone got a PET hard drive? And, for that matter, has anyone
got a MUPET system for sale?
Philip.
OK, I've read through the entry on the DLV11-F in the "Microcomputer
Interfaces Handbook" (I love finally having some documentation). According
to it this card supports either a 20ma current loop interface or
EIA-standard lines, but doesn't include modem control.
My first question is, am I correct in assuming that I can attach a VT100 to
it with the proper serial cable? I know I could use the 20ma current loop,
IF I had a VT100 with that interface.
Anyway does anyone have the pinout for a BC01V-X or BC05C-X modem cable?
My guess is that it's a 40-pin ribbon connector on one end and a DB25
connector on the other. Unfortunatly I don't seem to have the pinout for
the 40-pin connector or I'd see about putting this together.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
I acquired a PDP-8/L not too long ago, and in discussion with the
original owner he advised I have a fire extinguisher on hand when I power
it up.
That concerns me, as I'd rather not burn up a PDP-8/L (or the house).
What can I do to ensure the -8/L wont catch fire (or do anything else
equally bad) when I turn it on? I don't have a very good knowledge of
electronics, but I can certainly open it up and examine boards.
Tom Owad
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
>>Don't forget the most important thing, you can REALLY control the spark
>>curve :)
>
> Yes and the transmission shift points in some cars.
What?!? Took me a couple of minutes to work out what you're even
talking about, there.
These (mostly non-electronic) analogue computers were quite popular in
larger cars (in the UK, anything with more than 2.5 litres - 150 cu. in.
- of engine) in the early 'seventies, but they were inefficient and
unreliable and I never use them if I can avoid it...
I refer of course to automatic gearboxes. If you want control over the
transmission shift points, get a manual gearbox with electric overdrive.
Every time!
(Hmmm. Thinks... I don't think I've seen an electric overdrive on a
car made later than 1980. But automatic gearboxes are still alive and
kicking. It's a strange world...)
Philip.
Uncle Roger asked:
>A quick question... How many people know how to work on their cars? How
>many drive older vehicles without as much "black-box" stuff?
'68 Plymouth Sport Suburban (= 3-seat Fury wagon *not* the Chevy Suburban).
I'll work on the stuff that makes it go but I let professionals
handle the stuff that makes it stop or turn.
I sometimes fantasize about a medium big terrorist nuke at very
high altitude using EMP to shut down all the microprocessor-controlled cars
in the state. I don't think that would stop my car with its points and
coil. 'Course, the road will still be jammed full of inert new cars....
....and my classic computer collection will be garbage! Auuugghh!!!
I don't fanatasize about that very often.
- Mark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Asteroids headed toward planets
inhabited by beings that don't have
technology adequate to stop them:
Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.
At 06:47 PM 8/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Whether that is true or not is completely irrelevant to the pricing of
>> Altairs as collectibles.
>
>Not at all. It's the *perceived* significance and rarity that makes these
Exactly! That perception need not have any basis in fact.
>Bill Gates first wrote BASIC for the Schmaltztair rather than the Altair,
I'm not sure how much Gates has to do with the perceived value of the
Altair; it may be that people just think of it as the "first".
>those brilliant bastards at Ty came up with a scheme for artificial
Doncha wish ya was one of them? 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 11:30 AM 8/15/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I don't think ZDNet will post my comments, as mine started with:
>
>Piracy YES. Commodore 64 NOT!
Actually, they did; it was my comment that didn't get posted. I berated ZD
(et al) for proclaiming a computer dead simply because they do not receive
any advertising income from its users.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 04:11 AM 8/15/98 GMT, you wrote:
>inflation of the price of something that should belong to people who
>respect it as other than a "collectors item". Now I'm sure this
Why does this idea always come from the people who don't have/can't afford
the objet in question? If works of art, classic computers, '56 corvettes,
etc., should all belong to the people, then maybe we should all switch to
socialism. I have no problem with that. Everyone on the list could then
turn over their classic computers to the state, and take 3 or 4 homeless
people into their apartments. Certainly, if old computers should be shared
amongst all, then more so should food and shelter.
On the other hand, if we want to stick with the system we've got (and if
you've got a roof over your head that doesn't leak, you're doing pretty
well with this system) then we have to accept that artwork, cool cars, hot
babes (and hunks), and computers all go to those who can afford them, and
we need to quit whining about it and work to get ahead so we can be one of
those who can afford a $12K altair.
In the meantime, there are plenty of other computers out there to play with
and if you're just interested in it as a technical toy, Compupro's were
much better, or you can design your own S-100 box. And I doubt someone who
paid $12k for an Altair is going to use it as a boat anchor or flowerpot,
so don't worry about its survival.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
I dunno. I was thinking more in terms of hardware
availability, and actual adherence to the IEEE
standard. I used to play with GPIB alot, but that
was some years ago . . .
Jeff
At 03:58 PM 8/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:45 PM 8/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 07:14 PM 8/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>A minor success story compared with some I read here, but I wanted to
>>>share it with you...
>>
>><Story on how our intrepid hero kludged Commo and Tek Snipped>
>>
>>Maybe you would have been better off using an HP IEEE disk drive:
>
> Will these use HP drives? Has anybody tried using one on a Tek or PET?
>
> Joe
>
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:40:15 +0200 (CEST), Jason writes:
cl> Another setback is it's HD. It's a 20MB Western digital -
cl> and slow as a turtle. Does anyone, by any chance, have a spare
cl> XT-compatible IDE HD without a stepper motor driving the heads??
Those hard disks were very slow, and noisy too. They also suffer from
sudden head stiction. You are lucky it is a Western Digital.
Older machines had Miniscribe hard disks which were worse.
You can switch off the XT-IDE hard disk port with switch 8 of the
DIP switches in the Philips XT and install a regular MFM disk controller
and hard disk in the machine. Works like in any other XT.
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
> >
> > Yeah. All the docs would be cool. The thing that really
> bugs me is that
> > I dont remember how to boot one :)
> >
> > Sure did meet Allison, she's still got a Compupro RAM card floating
> > around somewhere for me. Since we work mere blocks from
> each other, it
> > shouldn't be tough to get it from her.
> >
> > We can meet up at the Sept flea somewhere, I'll have my PDP
> collecting
> > girlfriend in tow.
> >
> > I actually want to entertain the idea of maybe joining up
> with the west
> > coast folks to see if we can get a VCF together for us east
> coasters.
> > Hell, cant be any worse than running a Japanese Animation or Sci-Fi
> > convention (both of which I have done in the past).
> >
> > Tony
>
> We should consider doing it with the Trenton Computer Festival
> http://www.tcf.net which was full of old stuff in the good
> old days -- but
> it's been moving to newer stuff (and PC's) lately. I haven't seen an
> 8 or 11 there for a couple of years.
>
> I've seen Sun3/4's, DecStations, some old PC stuff in
> addition to the current
> stuff.
>
> Bill
>
If people out here in the east are really interested, I'm willing to
lend my convention experience... Lemme warn ya beforehand, Its alot of
work.
Tony
At 07:14 PM 8/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>A minor success story compared with some I read here, but I wanted to
>share it with you...
<Story on how our intrepid hero kludged Commo and Tek Snipped>
Maybe you would have been better off using an HP IEEE disk drive:
1. They're really common (at least, here they are)
2. You can get floppy, Winchester, or Tape
3. IEEE implementation is a little more 'standard'
But then again, mebbe you *need* to read commo disks with this
thing. Either way; well done, guy. Don 'cha love twiddling
those bits?
In this neck of the woods anyway, Commodore IEEE related 'stuff'
is pretty scarce . . .
Jeff
< As for noise, yes. It's noisy by today's standards. All of the old
< drives were touchy WRT handling. I didn't consider it more so than
< any other 8 year old drive.
The ST251 is easily over 12 years and known for spindle problems.
It runs real hot. Not a great drive compared the Quantum d540 (31mb)
that is voicecoil(fast), reliable and known to be very unfussy about
handling. Also the ST251 was very flakey compared to it's 20mb
counterpart the st225. Not all were touchy WRT to handling. The biggest
problems is that between new developments and company turnovers some
really poor drives made it out the door due to design errors or worse
poor quality control.
I still use st506, st412 and st225s but NOT st251s. I also have some 7
Quantum D540s that refuse to die in my PDP-11s, vax, and CP/M systems.
Allison
A recent storm blew a tree over and into my garage. It so happens
that I had an computer near the spot where the tree went through
the garage. Although not physically damaged by the tree, there was
a lot of water damage to the computer and especially the monitor.
Being an older machine, I am not sure how to place a value on it
for insurance purposes. If anyone out there has seen anything
recent on the machine as to what they are selling for,
I would appreciate sharing of that info.
The computer is an IBM RT Model 135, Type 6150. It has a 5 1/4 floppy,
and two hard drives (100MB & 300MB), plus the usual video and
network card.
The monitor is an IBM Model/Type 5081-19, 19" color with RGB inputs.
I am not trying to come up with some inflated value for this thing
to take advantage of the insurance company, just a reasonable fair
value to settle the claim. The machine worked fine before I parked
it in the garage. I know that there is probably cases where the
machines have just been thrown or given away, but would like to get
some compensation for it, if nothing else for what was a working
19" color monitor.
Thanks in advance for any helpful info.
Mike Thompson
mzthompson(a)aol.com
My profile's on my III's can't be accessed through Prodos, but need a disk
called catalyst to get to the drive. If you need a copy email me
personally.
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Spence <ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 8:45 PM
Subject: Apple III & Profile
>
>Greetings,
>
>I finally got around to trying the Profile hard drive someone gave me,
>with my Apple III, but I can't get it to work. I haven't tried
>formatting, but I wan't to leave that as a 'last resort', in case there's
>something useful on the drive.
>
>I opened up the drive when I first got it, to see what's inside. The
>actual drive mechanism is a full-height 5.25" jobbie, and IIRC it's 5MB.
>I don't remember who the manufacturer was.
>
>I power up the drive first, and wait until the READY light stops blinking.
>I have no Apple III docs, I just 'guessed' that that was the proper
>procedure. I don't know if it is yet.
>
>I then boot up the III with the SOS 1.3 Utilities disk. I've used the
>configuration program to make .PROFILE active. The configuration file
>reports the following:
>
>item field value
> 1 - Device Name................ .PROFILE
> 2 - Device Type................ $D1 Block, Read, Write ( range
00..FF )
> Formatter present; NonRemovable
> 3 - Device Subtype............. $02 ( range
00..FF )
> 4 - Driver Status.............. ACTIVE
> 5 - Comment
> Apple /// SOS Profile Driver (C) Copyright 1981, Apple Computer
Inc.
> 6 - Configuration Block data
>
> Slot Number................ 04
> Unit Number................ $00
> Manufacturer ID............ $0001 Apple
> Block Count................ $2600 (9728)
> Version ID................. 1.00
>
>I can't edit the configuration block data, though. If I go down to item 6
>and hit RETURN, I get to the "Edit Driver Configuration Block" screen,
>which looks like it should have at least 16 values on it. It only
>displays "[FF]" at location 00, though, and although it says I can use
>arrows to go to other values, the arrows don't do anything.
>
>If I go to the "Device handling commands" section from the main menu, and
>attempt to Verify .PROFILE, the READY light on the Profile blinks, there
>is a clicking noise, and the READY light goes out. The program reports
>".profile - Volume not found". The READY light stays out for a while,
>blinks a few times, then comes back on and stays on.
>
>If I go to "List devices configured", it pauses when it gets to .PROFILE,
>and reports "(no directory)", and the drive behaves exactly as with
>Verify.
>
>It's possible the drive just needs to be formatted, but as I said, I don't
>want to do that until I'm sure there's nothing salvageable on it.
>
>I'm not even sure I've got the cabling right. I assumed it takes a
>straight-through 25-pin cable from the ProFile controller to the drive
>unit. No twists or turns along the way?
>
>Also, I've got two Profile controllers, one in slot 3 and one in slot 4.
>I coulfn't get it to work at all from the one in slot 3, simply because it
>seems to have been preconfigured to look at slot 4.
>
>Any helpful info will be appreciated.
>
>Hopefully I don't get frustrated and try formatting the unit before I get
>a reply. :)
>
>
>Doug Spence
>ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
>http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/
For something this old, (and worthless?) you can't really put a price on it.
I have one also, but really has no value to anyone but myself. $100 maybe? If
you don't keep the machine, i sure could use a keyboard...
In a message dated 98-08-17 09:51:22 EDT, you write:
>The computer is an IBM RT Model 135, Type 6150. It has a 5 1/4 floppy,
>and two hard drives (100MB & 300MB), plus the usual video and
> network card.
>The monitor is an IBM Model/Type 5081-19, 19" color with RGB inputs.
>I am not trying to come up with some inflated value for this thing
>to take advantage of the insurance company, just a reasonable fair
> value to settle the claim.
>Has anybody heard of the Imsai Vdp 40 machine? What is it, and
how many have been made?
Not sure how many were made, but the VDPs came out in the late 70's,
around '78 or '79 as I remember. I bought several to use as special
purpose POS terminals in a casino. They were in a "standard" size
IMSAI/S-100 case, but they had a short motherboard (8 slot? have to
look) and bays for two full height 5.25" floppies. Typically they came
with an IMSAI 8085 CPU card, a two board floppy controller (not very
reliable), PerSci floppies, and a 64K DRAM memory board. The power
supply was scaled down from the big 500 watt version, plus it had an
extra regulator board for the floppy power. There was no front panel,
just two buttons, RESET and INT (I think this was connected to one of
the S-100 interrupt lines), and a power switch.
IIRC there were three basic models, the /40, /42, and/44. The 44 was
the high end, full 64K and the fast PerSci disks. Just before IMSAI
folded, they were offering a hard drive interface to some type of 5MB
top loading drive (I think it was some CDC drive equivalent to the DEC
RL02), at least the salesman called and tried to sell me some, but I
never actually saw them. IMSAI was famous for it's vaporware.
System software was CP/M 2 with NED (aka WordMaster), a nice video
terminal oriented editor.
I still have one, though it does need a little work on the motherboard.
How I got it was an interesting story in itself. Originally I had
bought four of them for a customer, in late '78, just before IMSAI
folded. After they were installed I didn't have too much contact with
the customer, but I knew they were in use for several years. About 12
years later a friend of mine came over one night, dumped a VDP40 on my
table and said I could have it. He had paid $5 for it at a yard sale,
knew I had some IMSAIs, thought I might want it. I opened it up, and to
my suprise found the custom serial card I had wired for the original
customer still in there, it was one of the original VDPs I had bought.
No idea how it wound up at a yard sale.
Jack Peacock
I've been trying to make an archive copy of my Mindset
software, because all of the commercial software for
the Mindset requires the original disk to be inserted
before running, including Microsoft GW Basic !
Does anyone have (successful) experience copying Mindset
disks, or know of a real kick butt copy program for the
IBM PC?
=========================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=========================================
Guys:
I just wanna thank Seth and Allison for advising me on the uVax I was
contemplating.
The guy wanted $75 (which seemed reasonable), but I decided not to enter
the VAX
arena at this time. I have way to many things on the stove as it is.
Besides, after much soul searching, I've come to the conclusion that I'm
not really
a VMS kinda guy.
BTW-- I met Tim Hotze IRL this weekend. He's a nice kid. But since he's
moving
overseas, he can't bring all of the hardware he wants with him! Bummer.
He'll
have fun with the Apple ]['s I got for him, though.
L8r.
Jeff
This was a slow week. Not that I didn't find a lot but I was running out
of money! I did pick up *SEVEN* HP 64100 Logic Developement Systems.
And a HP 8180 pattern generator with a 8181 extender with all the cables
and manuals. I passed up a HP Touch Screen II and a HP 9826 and several HP
9000 300 series computers.
The HP 64100 LDS dates from the early '80s but HP is still making a
similar machine. These look like an oversize RS model 1s with a tape drive
to the right of the monitor and a opening to the right of the keyboard. The
opening is used to install an optional EPROM burner socket. The main unit
has slots for 9 expansion cards for logic analyzers, various CPU emulators,
extra memory, etc. I will probably keep one, the rest are up for grabs if
anyone wants them. I will charge a reasonable price to cover the cost of
packing and taking to UPS (Gag! I hate that place!) But be warned they are
bigger than a model 1 and weigh about 75 pounds bare. They're located in
Florida so you can figure out shipping. I don't have any of the plug in
emulators, etc but I do have two boxs of manuals. Most/ all of these will
be scrapped if no one wants them, they're too big to keep around.
Joe
Yeah. All the docs would be cool. The thing that really bugs me is that
I dont remember how to boot one :)
Sure did meet Allison, she's still got a Compupro RAM card floating
around somewhere for me. Since we work mere blocks from each other, it
shouldn't be tough to get it from her.
We can meet up at the Sept flea somewhere, I'll have my PDP collecting
girlfriend in tow.
I actually want to entertain the idea of maybe joining up with the west
coast folks to see if we can get a VCF together for us east coasters.
Hell, cant be any worse than running a Japanese Animation or Sci-Fi
convention (both of which I have done in the past).
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Stek [mailto:bobstek@ix14.ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 10:10 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: Tony - SOL docs and MIT flea market
>
>
> Hey, Tony -
>
> Give me some time to make copies, and the SOL docs will
> be yours. Should I
> assume you also want the actual kit construction details, or
> will the theory
> of operation, schematics, etc. be sufficient?
>
> Yesterday was my first visit to the MIT flea market,
> too. Did you meet
> Allison? I bought a great new Integrand cabinet/power supply
> from her. I
> think I saw everything you bought except for the Osborne
> Executive (which I
> would have bought had I seen it first!) - I just have more
> self-restraint
> (or perhaps less money <g>) Perhaps we could go together in
> September. It
> may not be VCF 2.0, but it's what we got!
>
> Bob Stek
> bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com
>
At 05:37 PM 8/15/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote:
>$12K too much for you to pay for an Altair? OK, here's a guy that made a
>$25 Altair clone:
And don't forget, the C source and Windows executables to Altair and
IMSAI emulators are available on my web site.
I've put them there in the hopes of attracting someone who'd like
to verify their emulation, supply source code to bootstraps or
example programs, add an emulated ASR-33 for "reading" pretend
tapes and viewing output, sound effects, etc.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
Hey, Tony -
Give me some time to make copies, and the SOL docs will be yours. Should I
assume you also want the actual kit construction details, or will the theory
of operation, schematics, etc. be sufficient?
Yesterday was my first visit to the MIT flea market, too. Did you meet
Allison? I bought a great new Integrand cabinet/power supply from her. I
think I saw everything you bought except for the Osborne Executive (which I
would have bought had I seen it first!) - I just have more self-restraint
(or perhaps less money <g>) Perhaps we could go together in September. It
may not be VCF 2.0, but it's what we got!
Bob Stek
bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com
I came to own a scanner made by The Complete PC, Inc. Natrually there
isn't any software with the device do anyone here know where I could
find a program to use this thing? I know this isn't quite 10 years old
but in '99 it will be so could we bend the rules this time?
