>Bad choice of words on my part. I meant it wasn't in electronic
>form. As you point out, it's tempting to toss the docs because
>of their bulk, and has others have shown on this list, the docs
>are the first thing to have disappeared when they come to
>rescue a system.
There are some efforts I've heard of which involve scanning in the
old documentation... that will be terrabytes of .GIFs, I would
imagine... Let's hope that those of us who have any documentation
keep it forever, or will forward it (if someone decides to exit
the arena of classic computing) to one of those who are still
maintaining sets...
>Someone mentioned the old DEC fiches, and Megan (gee, only the
Gee... I'm honored... (someone else used to refer to me as *The*
Megan... :-)
>most famous are known by their first names) said something
>about the way they were produced with specially formatted text
>that printed direct to fiche film. Has DEC liberated these
>docs in pure electronic text form, or even RUNOFF form, or
>whatever system they used to typeset the original docs?
Unfortunately, those tapes were, to my knowledge, temporary for
the time it took to make the fiche. If they were saved, they
went to fire storage... and I have to say that once something
>from DEC went to fire storage, I've never seen anyone who could
get it back... I know, I've tried a few times over the years for
some things... (So what is the use of fire storage, if all it is
is a black hole?)
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
In a message dated 8/27/98 2:25:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, manney(a)lrbcg.com
writes:
> Grant sent me some, but they weren't teeny tiny enough. These are 3/32"
> across, but the pins are only about 1/16" tall. Anyone have any?
> Thanks
> manney(a)lrbcg.com
hmm, my local overpriced computer store has em for sale...
i doubt they are that hard to find.
>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Francois wrote:
>
>> I believe it is relevant to the list for people who might be in the area
at
>> the time.
>
>But if you have your own local mailing list, then you can talk about us
>behind our backs. We talk about you guys all the time :-) You can setup
That's the main reason I wanted to meet my fellow collectors of the MidWest
so we can talk about you guys
>your own list using a service like www.listbot.com, for example, or roll
>your own if you've got your own net.boxen (like all of us SV nerds).
We have a few of those too but we save them for serious stuff: Real time
snow flake counter available in streaming video, mosquito forecast for every
lake in Minnesota.
You see with all those interesting things goin on that leaves only one place
to post for our get-together, West Coast collector bashing reunions.
Would it be more proper to post something in the following form?
------------------------------------
| |
| |
| o o |
| | |
| U |
| |
| |
| MIDWEST VCD Beta 0.1 |
| |
| Friday August 28 1998 |
| |
| Chilli's on county road 42 |
| |
| 6:00 pm |
| |
| |
| Any one who cares can come |
| |
------------------------------------
I could add a list of guest speakers and a schedule of events.
>
>-- Doug
Yes I agree that the discussion about the details is probably noise for most
of you but it's the best way to reach all that would be interested. The
subject line is clear enough to decide wether you want to read the post or
not and at about 100 bytes a post it does not constitute a "waste of
bandwith".
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
<about 3" centre height, 18" between centres). Including milling. If you
< have a vertical slide on the saddle (and, better still also a vertical
< milling attachment), there's little you can't do that you could do on a
< milling machine. Sure you'll have to work slowly and take light cuts, bu
< you can do it.
One popular lathe/mill was the unimat. used to cost back around '68
about $400USD.
Thanks to brothers and father, the basement at home was a full machine
shop with a southbend 6"x28" lathe, drill press, welding and forge.
Milling of small parts was done clamping it to the crossstock or
headpeice.
< Metal casting is also possible at home. You can make the pattern on the
< lathe, make a mould using foundry sand and melt the metal either in a
< coke furnace, or preferably an electricly heated one. Not trivial to do,
< but not beyond what some people will try. In fact I must have a go one d
My favorite source for metal was Volkswagon engine heads as the aluminum
alloy was very machineable and melted well using a propane/air forge in
the back yard. Parts were sandcast. Dad showed me how to make masters
and work the sand. Also used to do lost plug plaster casting for finer
parts (plaster formed around a wax form that is melted out). Also did
copper and bronze. Steel was welded, cut and formed using gas and arc
equipment.
It's all pretty easy once you know how. Wish I had access to that now.
Allison
Is this any easier with plastic parts? Is there any easy way to make
molds? I don't want to do it, just curious (modern appliances
usually depend on a single .5 cm plastic cog which of course tends
to break or wear out after a few months' use)
>FOr the record, I have absolutely no interest in firearms...
>
>> Why not? It can certainly be bought, both new and at auctions.
>> I knew a gunsmith who had a mill and a lathe, and that's the main
>> two pieces of heavy machinery you need to make pretty much anything.
>> (Besides the little stuff like welding equipment, saws, etc.)
>
>Actually, you can do a suprising amount with a small lathe (small
meaning
>about 3" centre height, 18" between centres). Including milling. If you
>have a vertical slide on the saddle (and, better still also a vertical
>milling attachment), there's little you can't do that you could do on a
>milling machine. Sure you'll have to work slowly and take light cuts,
but
>you can do it.
>
>To go back on topic, a small lathe will make a lot of bits for computer
>peripherals. Rollers, spindles, pulleys, gears, etc can all be made
>pretty easily. In fact for something like a simple nylon roller for a
>printer, it's actually quicker to turn the part than to try to get a
part
>number from the manufacturer!
>
>The cost of a good small non-CNC (so ideal for one-offs, but not for
>production) lathe would be about \pounds 3000, I guess. Not impossible
to
>have at home. In fact almost all model engineers (the sort of madmen
who
>make steam engines) have such a machine.
>
>Metal casting is also possible at home. You can make the pattern on the
>lathe, make a mould using foundry sand and melt the metal either in a
>coke furnace, or preferably an electricly heated one. Not trivial to
do,
>but not beyond what some people will try. In fact I must have a go one
day.
>
>-tony
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>Someone mentioned the old DEC fiches, and Megan (gee, only the
>most famous are known by their first names) said something
>about the way they were produced with specially formatted text
>that printed direct to fiche film. Has DEC liberated these
>docs in pure electronic text form, or even RUNOFF form, or
>whatever system they used to typeset the original docs?
If you could be more clear about *exactly* which documents you're
interested in, I could fill you in precisely about their fiche and/or paper
and/or electronic status. Again, we're talking about millions
of pages generated in a period of time over a quarter of a century
long, so there's not only a lot of documents, there are also a lot
of document formats!
-----
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917
7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817
>I've sometimes wished there were more FAQs and tutorials for
>emulators like this. For that matter, for the preservation of
>any old machine... so much knowledge isn't written down, much
>less on the web.
AFAIK, just about everything about the -11 and the DEC software that
users might run on it is written down. I moved several thousand
pounds of such documentation in my last big move, and that was
even after pruning it down to only the most essential stuff!
Tim.
Tony:
E-mail me in private, and I'll fill you in . . .
Jeff
At 11:07 AM 8/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I live for serious restoration projects and want a N* Horizon badly.
>
>Tony
>--
>
>On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:59:29 Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>>Guys:
>>
>>How many of you out there have a North Star Horizon?
>>I have one in seriously distressed condition, but
>>it may be useful for parts, or possibly for someone
>>who wants to embark on a *serious* restoration
>>project.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
>
Guys:
How many of you out there have a North Star Horizon?
I have one in seriously distressed condition, but
it may be useful for parts, or possibly for someone
who wants to embark on a *serious* restoration
project.
Jeff
P.S.: I'm sorry I botched the SUBJECT: for my previous message
Thought y'all might be amused by this tidbit from another list:
"This reminds me of something I heard about earier this month. It seems
some researchers decided to create a breed of super-intelligent lab rats
by the simple process of artificial selection: in each generation, only
the rats who were the fastest at solving mazes would be bred.
Result: After seven generations, the researchers had created a colony of
rats who were clumsy, near-sighted, antisocial, and totally inept in their
dealings with the opposite sex."
--
Warbaby
The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire.
http://www.warbaby.com
The MonkeyPool
WebSite Content Development
http://www.monkeypool.com
Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies.
Curious. I am wondering what would happen if such a thing were
actually done. It would probably make a bunch of rats with identical
times,at which point the experiment would be over. It would be
interesting what the gender spread would be in such a case.
>
>Thought y'all might be amused by this tidbit from another list:
>
>
>"This reminds me of something I heard about earier this month. It
seems
>some researchers decided to create a breed of super-intelligent lab
rats
>by the simple process of artificial selection: in each generation, only
>the rats who were the fastest at solving mazes would be bred.
>
>Result: After seven generations, the researchers had created a colony
of
>rats who were clumsy, near-sighted, antisocial, and totally inept in
their
>dealings with the opposite sex."
>
>--
>
>
>
>Warbaby
>The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire.
>http://www.warbaby.com
>
>The MonkeyPool
>WebSite Content Development
>http://www.monkeypool.com
>
>
> Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies.
>
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Well, score one for Classifieds 2000. I just got a C128 system with 1571, printer, and software (including all the *ORIGINAL* disks that came with the 1571) for $35.
If anyone needs copies of 1571 stuff (including a C128 CP/M boot disk) lemme know, I have two 1571s now and can make disk copies rather easy.
Tony
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
>Zane H. Healy wrote:
> This might answer a few of the questions, I just dug this up out of the
> Supnick emulator distribution:
>
> LICENSE AGREEMENT
>
> This Agreement, dated ________________, is entered into by Mentec Inc., a
> Massachusetts Company, located at 55 Technology Drive, Lowell, MA 01851,
> U.S.A. (MENTEC), and _____________________________________________ having a
> residence at __________________________________________________________
> (CUSTOMER).
>
> Whereas, MENTEC owns the rights to the following PDP-11 Operating Systems
> and associated layered products (RT-11 V5.3 or prior, RSTS/E V9.6 or prior,
> RSX-11M V4.3 or prior, RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or prior) (SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY)
> and is prepared to grant a non-exclusive license to use such
> SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY for personal, non-commercial purposes;
>
> Whereas, CUSTOMER desires to enter into a License Agreement which will
> allow CUSTOMER to use such software technology at his or her residence for
> personal, non-commercial purposes;
>
> MENTEC and CUSTOMER agree as follows:
>
> 1 DEFINITIONS
>
> SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY shall mean the binary versions of the PDP-11 Operating
> Systems (RT-11 V5.3 or prior, RSTS/E V9.6 or prior, RSX-11M V4.3 or prior,
> RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or prior), and associated utilities and layered products
> that run on PDP-11 computers.
>
> MENTEC?S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS shall mean MENTEC?s patent, copyright
> and trade secret rights in its SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY.
>
> EMULATOR shall mean software owned by Digital Equipment Corporation that
> emulates the operation of a PDP-11 processor and allows PDP-11 programs and
> operating systems to run on non-PDP-11 systems.
>
> 2 LICENSE GRANT
>
> MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free license
> under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy the SOFTWARE
> TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in conjunction with the
> EMULATOR.
>
> 3 TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER AND ACCEPTANCE
>
> 3.1 CUSTOMER is responsible for obtaining copies of SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY and
> accepts the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY "AS IS".
>
> 3.2 MENTEC is under no obligation to supply SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY,
> documentation, error corrections or updates to the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY if
> or when they become available, or to provide training, support or
> consulting for the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY.
>
> 4 WARRANTY DISCLAIMER/LIMITATION OF LIABILITY
>
> MENTEC DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO ANY SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY
> LICENSED TO CUSTOMER HEREUNDER, INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
> MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL MENTEC BE LIABLE FOR ANY
> SPECIAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER
> RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE OR DATA, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT,
> NEGLIGENCE, INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY INFRINGEMENT OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION,
> ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF ANY SOFTWARE
> TECHNOLOGY LICENSED HEREUNDER.
>
> 5 INDEMNITY
>
> CUSTOMER will hold MENTEC harmless against all liabilities, demands,
> damages, expenses, or losses arising out of use by CUSTOMER of SOFTWARE
> TECHNOLOGY or information furnished under this Agreement.
>
> 6 TERM AND TERMINATION
>
> 6.1 This Agreement shall be effective until otherwise terminated. Either
> party may terminate this Agreement at any time upon 30 days written notice.
>
> 6.2 If CUSTOMER shall fail to perform or observe any of the terms and
> conditions to be performed or observed by it under this Agreement, MENTEC
> may in its sole discretion thereafter elect to terminate this Agreement,
> and this Agreement and all the obligations owed and rights granted herein
> to CUSTOMER shall immediately terminate.
>
> 6.3 The parties agree that the termination of this Agreement shall not
> release either party from any other liability which shall have accrued to
> the other party at the time such termination becomes effective, nor affect
> in any manner the survival of any right, duty or obligation of either party.
>
> 6.4 In the event of any termination of this Agreement for any reason,
> CUSTOMER shall delete all original and all whole or partial copies and
> derivatives of the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY from his or her computer system.
> CUSTOMER further shall cease to use and distribute the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY
> in all forms immediately upon the date of termination.
>
> 7 GENERAL TERMS
>
> 7.1 This Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the Commonwealth of
> Massachusetts.
>
> 7.2 This Agreement imposes personal obligations on CUSTOMER. CUSTOMER shall
> not assign any rights under this Agreement not specifically transferable by
> its terms without the written consent of MENTEC.
>
> 7.3 The SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY obtained under this Agreement may be subject to
> US and other government export control regulations. CUSTOMER assures that
> it will comply with these regulations whenever it exports or re-exports a
> controlled product or technical data obtained from MENTEC or any product
> produced directly from the SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY.
>
> 7.4 The waiver of a breach hereunder may be effected only by a writing
> signed by the waiving party and shall not constitute a waiver of any other
> breach.
>
> 7.5 CUSTOMER acknowledges that he has read this Agreement, understands it
> and agrees to be bound by its terms and further agrees that it is the
> complete and exclusive statement of the Agreement between the parties which
> supersedes all communications and understanding between the parties
> relating to the subject matter of this Agreement.
>
> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
> | healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
> | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
> | and Zane's Computer Museum. |
> | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
I think there may be interest here as well. I messed up the address the
first attempt.
Megan says she has a V5.3 of RT-11 to be made available.
And I think someone else just mentioned that they had acquired
a set of RX50 for V5.3 of RT-11. Happy computing.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict
Hehehe... I'll re-reply then :)
I'm in to serious restoration projects and would love a N* Horizon.
Tony
--
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:07:41 Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>
>Guys:
>
>How many of you out there have a North Star Horizon?
>I have one in seriously distressed condition, but
>it may be useful for parts, or possibly for someone
>who wants to embark on a *serious* restoration
>project.
>
>Jeff
>
>P.S.: I'm sorry I botched the SUBJECT: for my previous message
>
>
>
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
Grant sent me some, but they weren't teeny tiny enough. These are 3/32"
across, but the pins are only about 1/16" tall. Anyone have any?
Thanks
manney(a)lrbcg.com
"2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2"
I live for serious restoration projects and want a N* Horizon badly.
Tony
--
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:59:29 Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>Guys:
>
>How many of you out there have a North Star Horizon?
>I have one in seriously distressed condition, but
>it may be useful for parts, or possibly for someone
>who wants to embark on a *serious* restoration
>project.
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
And what might this command do?
>
>
>Bill wrote:
>
>>Data General OS's...
>>
>>(I was told it was on machines from the Nova through the Eclipse).
>>I'm not sure but I think the MV8000 had it as well.
>>
>>Bill
>
>Yes, there was a system file on the MV8000 called XYZZY but entering
XYZZY
>at a terminal did nothing (as I recall.. it's been a long time)
>
>Of course, XYZZY did wonderful things in the original Adventure game
which
>used to keep me busy during boring sessions working at the computer
>center! (That and Hack on the old PCs)
>
>- Ron Kneusel
> rkneusel(a)mcw.edu
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>I've been playing with the PDP-11 emulator some the last couple of days
>under Linux (it's a lot quieter than the real thing), and am wondering
>about having a second console. I see in the configuration that it has two
>consoles, but I can't figure out how to access the second console. Any
>ideas? Is it possible to hang a VT off the serial port and have the
>emulator talk to that?
Where do you get the idea that it has two consoles? In the file
pdp11_stddev.c, there are definitions for the console input service
(tti) and the console output service (tto). Those services, combined,
are one terminal. I don't see anything about another terminal.
(I'm looking in sources for v3.2c of the emulator)
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com> Wrote:
>>Where do you get the idea that it has two consoles? In the file
>>pdp11_stddev.c, there are definitions for the console input service
>>(tti) and the console output service (tto). Those services, combined,
>>are one terminal. I don't see anything about another terminal.
>>
>>(I'm looking in sources for v3.2c of the emulator)
>
>Ah, heh, I sort of mistook those for two consoles. Opps. (Now why
>didn't I realize that, sheesh)
Of course, it wouldn't take much to create a file, pdp11_tt.c, which
essentially duplicated the code in pdp11_stddev.c, at least with
regards to the terminal input and output service, and allow that
device to be attached to a /dev/ttynn device on your system...
Heck, it's a computer... all you need is the code...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
--- John Ruschmeyer wrote:
> Mac 512k? Since the ROM only recognizes the smaller-size drive, will it just
> ignore the top R/W head and work fine otherwise?
Actually, IIRC, it will recognize the drive as double sided, *but* you will
still be limited to the old MFS format, rather than the newer HFS.
<<John>>
--- end of quote ---
I thought the old format went hand-in-hand with one-sided disks. So I could use 800k floppies in MFS format? If so, then what was the point of the 512ke?
-- MB
Bill wrote:
>Data General OS's...
>
>(I was told it was on machines from the Nova through the Eclipse).
>I'm not sure but I think the MV8000 had it as well.
>
>Bill
Yes, there was a system file on the MV8000 called XYZZY but entering XYZZY
at a terminal did nothing (as I recall.. it's been a long time)
Of course, XYZZY did wonderful things in the original Adventure game which
used to keep me busy during boring sessions working at the computer
center! (That and Hack on the old PCs)
- Ron Kneusel
rkneusel(a)mcw.edu
I thought you just had to run something in the I386 directory in NT or
something to make it use dual CPUs. i think the program is irrelevant; i've
never heard of dual cpu winNT programs before.
In a message dated 8/26/98 7:50:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
maxeskin(a)hotmail.com writes:
> But modern SMP NT boxen can only multiprocess if the task is
> especially adjusted for it. Apparently, NT itself will not take
> advantage of the second processor, unless the app (e.g. Photoshop)
> has the featuer. Is this always the case, or different in other
> systems?
'
I've been playing with the PDP-11 emulator some the last couple of days
under Linux (it's a lot quieter than the real thing), and am wondering
about having a second console. I see in the configuration that it has two
consoles, but I can't figure out how to access the second console. Any
ideas? Is it possible to hang a VT off the serial port and have the
emulator talk to that?
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
>>I'd love to see a manual for the chipset and microcode information.
> I think the burning question would be: How does one debug somehting
> like this?
Like any other new processor. In fact, the microcode instructions
are nothing else than the 'real' instrructions of the CPU. And the
microcode of a CPU is nothing more than a basic, build in interpreter
for the 'official' instruction set. So the development is (almost)
the same as for any Interpreter you want to write fo a naked system.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
--- Doug Spence wrote:
Do you have a floppy drive for yours? Or are you stuck using cassette
like me?
-----
Neither, you lucky dog! I have these cartridge adapter thingies that supposedly allow one or two Disk ][ drives to be used with it, but I don't think I ever managed to get it to read a disk (this is likely due to my ignorance, though none of this stuff was known-good when I got it). I may have a spare disk adapter -- you interested? There's also another cartridge-like adapter for a printer, and one more with another version of BASIC. I can check in my parts bin for spares if you want.
-----
I hope you cannibalized one L3K to fix the other, and not to fix something
more mundane.
--- end of quote ---
Yes, it donated some of its vital organs to save the life of the other one. ;)
-- MB
I believe it is relevant to the list for people who might be in the area at
the time.
If I'm trveling to the bay area and see that there is a get-together going
on at the same time I would make sure to attend.
This invitation is not reserved to people living in the Twin-Cities but to
all and that includes travellers.
I used to do quite a bit of travel for work and had nothing to do with my
evenings. Sure the chances are slim but still it is worth the added
messages.
It sure beats IMHO discussiond about guns or other means of destruction.
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
>A suggestion: a group of us in the Bay Area have created a list-serve to
>discuss events and interest specific to our local area (anyone in the Bay
>Area is invited to join). Perhaps one of you could create a mailing list
>that would serve you folks in the mid-west so that you can keep local
>discussions of off the main list.
Picked up a new stack of systems, one of which is an Ithica Intersystem
DPS-1. If you have ever seen one, it looks suspiciously like a PDP-11
console. Or at least it would if this one had its dress panel...
On the longshot front then, does anyone have a spare (extra, random,
looking for a home) front bezel for one of these units? Or even a (more or
less) complete chassis looking for a new home? It is also missing a couple
of switch levers. The nice bright orange ones.
This unit even has a bit of a history. Before it came to me it had been a
development system at Digital Research (yes, THAT one) In fact it came
along with a great deal of materials most of which have been forwarded
along to Tim Olmstead for addition to the CP/M Source Archives.
Apparently, they did not have much use for the dress panel on the machine
(hardware tinkering and such) and it had been lost for some time before the
machine came to me. (darn)
So... any help appreciated as always!
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
< Is this any easier with plastic parts? Is there any easy way to make
< molds? I don't want to do it, just curious (modern appliances
< usually depend on a single .5 cm plastic cog which of course tends
< to break or wear out after a few months' use)
generally plastic is easier to work than metal. depending on the part
you can machine it out of a block of similar material. Used to make a
lot of parts out of DERLIN, teflon and Nylon
Allisn
< Curious. Same goes for people who aren't in a large company and
< invent various other things. How did he 'invent' a gun without
< owning the necessary tools (at least I doubt a magazine writer would
< own this stuff) to process metal? Also, how did Woz make a case for
< the Apple ][, etc? Are there companies that take single orders
< like this?
Well first off there are companies that if you supply the drawing and pay
dearly they will make the requested item.
I'd suspect the Gunsmith would possess the tools needed. It doesn't take
a larg machine shop to do many of the processes needed to make a firearm
same applies for computer.
A case can be made of easily machined plastics or even wood and painted
for protos. I made a system box years ago out of wood to simulated the
look and feel of a quality epoxy glass resin, no majik other than knowing
how.
Allison
> Oboyoboy! Do these folks have any Barrett Light Fifties?
I always wanted to try out a rifle that could remove a shooter's
shoes
for him! kaBLAMMMMM! ;]
Nope, out of luck, all they have are pistol and submachine guns, after
all, it's an indoor range, a .50 BMG would go right thru the wall and
the building next door too. Indoor ranges don't have the backstop for
any rifle rounds, so no AKs, FALs, Galils, any of the good stuff either.
BTW a friend of mine makes a printed circuit type card for a
computerized chronograph used to measure 20mm rounds for an ammo
manufacturer. They actually fire the round thru the card, and use the
break in the circuit to control the chronograph. Because of the size
and amount of gas generated by a 20mm round, a regular chronograph using
sky light doesn't work, not accurate enough. The card is actually silk
screened conductive ink on cardboard.
Yeah, I'd like to have a Barrett too, but $5K is a bit too steep for me,
unless someone would like to trade for a nice IMSAI with front panel?
Then there's the cost of dies and a reloader for .50BMG rounds...
Jack Peacock
From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com]
>Sad. That was probably perpetrated by those Israeli guys in Las Vegas
who
rent out machine guns for an hour or whatnot so you can blast away at
stuff. I'm not kidding, this place exists. Northwest of the strip I
think.
There are at least two places west of the strip, Shooter Supply (the
nicest one) and The Survival Store, that rent out or sponsor machine gun
events. Both are close to my office. I think there are a couple more
on the east side of town. These ranges are very popular with Japanese
tourists. Typically they rent out Uzis, Thompsons, MACs, and the usual
generic batch of 9mms.
Jack Peacock
I once say a kit in some magazine that would let you turn a Mac into a
fishbowl.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)ricochet.net>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: RE: Classic Mags (was: Shame, shame, shame)
> Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 9:58 PM
>
> Speaking of which, anyone else remember the series of ads from (iirc)
> SmartTerm that said "Now that you have SmartTerm, what are you going to
do
> with your terminal?" and featured pictures of converted terminals being
> used as a Fishbowl, a Mailbox, and a Dollhouse. There might have been
> others, too. I always wanted to do the mailbox bit. Anyone still have
> copies of these (or better still, scanned versions?) Maybe I'll see if
> SmartTerm is still in business...
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
>
> Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
> roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
> Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
> San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>
I'm looking for a driver for a "Micro Mainframe Expanded Memory Expansion
Board" (yes, that's the actual name of it). The model number of it is
EMS-5150-T. The name of the driver is <EMS32.BIN>. It's for a Tandy
1000TL XT-class 286/12MHz.
One other question: The processor clocks in @ 12 MHz. The 1000TL is
supposed to be 8 MHz. Was there ever an upgrade offered for this computer
to make it 12MHz? The chip is manufactured by AMD, and it's a 286-12 (it
may be a S or SX, I'm not sure). This is also the computer that I'm trying
to find an XTA drive for. Make or model doesn't matter, as long as the
heads aren't run by a stepper motor.
ThAnX in advance,
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
But I am south, I live in Burnsville.
How about Chilli's on county rd 42 across from the mall.
Same time, Same day.
(I just like tequilaberries)
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
-----Original Message-----
From: Poesie De La Fenetre <darkside(a)digicron.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: Twin cities get together
>Ditto for me... I'm in eagan, and that's quite a haul. maybe you should
>come south :P
>
>-Eric
>
>
>
>John R. Keys Jr. wrote:
>>
>> If it's just two of us showing up let's put it on hold since it's a nice
>> drive for me from Burnsville. Maybe you and I can get together and go on
a
>> shopping spree one weekend. I plan on going to a big flea market this
>> Sunday if you want to go also let me know as it's up north. John
>> At 07:26 PM 8/25/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Just a quick reninder:
>> >Friday August 28, tequilaberries, 6:00pm
>> >Please let me know if you are planning to attend, I'll be there early to
>> >reserve a table.
>> >Francois
>> >-------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Visit the desperately in need of update
>> >Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
His name is steve buggie, and i've included part of an email he sent to me
concering my $5 apple gs with a bad ps. he's pretty knowledeable, and has been
very helpful to me with sending me diagnostice disks and other disk goodies
for my apples. he also redoes disk ][ drives with variable speed control and a
manually selected write protect switch.
david
>>If you're thinking of one of these you might ALSO want to think about
something
>>called Bugg power - a guy on the a2 newsgroup (comp.sys.apple2) who takes
>>pc XT power supplies and adapts them to plug into apples.
BUGG-POWER IIGS external power supply (converted from IBM)
$27 for 150 watts, or $30 for 200 watts; add $5.00 shipping.
It rests on the floor, with 5 ft cable to connect to the IIgs motherboard
via the rear panel of the IIgs. I've made 192 units in 2 1/2 years!
Steve Buggie
**=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=**
** Stephen Buggie, Psychology, Univ. of New Mexico, Gallup NM 87301 **
** buggie(a)unm.edu voice: (505) 863-7504 or 863-2390 **
** GALLUP NM: Home of Teddy Roosevelt's 1898 "Rough Riders" Cavalry **
**=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=**
> That _does_ sound like a decoder. Maybe you could look at Toshiba TV
> schematics (I have almost _no_ NTSC stuff here) and see if you can figure
> out what the chip does...
>
Well, if it was made by Toshiba.... That's probably what's wrong with
it...
GooD LucK,
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
> >I'd love to see a manual for the chipset and microcode information.
>
> I think the burning question would be: How does one debug somehting
> like this?
For a commercial company, microcode is tested and debugged on software
simulators before the hardware is even completed. Once the architecture
is defined, software is developed in parallel with the hardware to
simulate the components. Microcode is tested on the simulator, much
easier than using a scope and analyzer. Course, the component
descriptions given to the simulator programmers (these are usually
programmers with a good EE background who understand boards at the chip
level) had better be accurate.
And in parallel to that, an emulator is also done for the target
instruction set. This allows systems programmers to develop the initial
assembler, compiler and operating system for the new CPU. That's how a
completely new CPU design, with no backward compatibility, can appear
all at once. By the time the hardware prototype is ready, there is a
complete set of diagnostics and an OS to boot up. In theory that is ...
Tracey Kidder's book, The Soul Of a New Machine, detailed some of that
process when Data General switched from the 16-bit Nova to the 32-bit
Eclipse.
Jack Peacock
But modern SMP NT boxen can only multiprocess if the task is
especially adjusted for it. Apparently, NT itself will not take
advantage of the second processor, unless the app (e.g. Photoshop)
has the featuer. Is this always the case, or different in other
systems?
>
>
>< Dual processors? Another I've never heard of. My 8086 databook says
>< that up to four can be wired together, but I've never heard of anyone
>< doing it. Did this particular one work well?
>
>You could do more than four, it took a little more work as the simple
>parts to do it were roll your own and it was pretty impressive.
>
>
>later on NCR would have a box with 4 486/50s and it could wail.
>
>
>Allison
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Now that I think of it, you're right. I just need the case from the apple
drive to house an old 5.25" full height HD. I needed the TRS-80
drives/boxes for an old TRS-80 model III.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Hard drive adapters
> Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 1:57 PM
>
> > Apple and trs80 drives are not interchangeable though the case/PS would
> > be. I think I still have one with a drive.
>
> DId Apple drives ever contain a PSU? All the ones I have seen (Apple ][
> single and duodisk, Mac drives) take their power from the main system
PSU.
>
> >
> > Allison
> >
> >
>
> -tony
>
Hi gang. FYI Jameco has power supplies for apple2,2+,2e, and 2GS.
49.95 each, 60 watt units, original equipment style.
If you're thinking of one of these you might ALSO want to think about something
called Bugg power - a guy on the a2 newsgroup (comp.sys.apple2) who takes
pc XT power supplies and adapts them to plug into apples. Since the average
XT PS is 145 watts, the apple no longer has power problems (and you barely
have to run the PS's fan) and it gets the power supply and all that heat
out of the case altogether. (it sits on the floor ala C=64 power brick).
I've never used one of these things, but the reviews from people who have are
glowing. As for heat, I noticed in my GS last night it gets right toasty in
there, and the power supply is almost too hot to touch. I expect to be
PS shopping shortly. :(
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)calico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
< Well, mine still works. It just needs a nudge once in a while at
< boot up. Is it going to get worse or can I use it for a while?
It may get worse or better running it all the time is best.
Allison
< Dual processors? Another I've never heard of. My 8086 databook says
< that up to four can be wired together, but I've never heard of anyone
< doing it. Did this particular one work well?
You could do more than four, it took a little more work as the simple
parts to do it were roll your own and it was pretty impressive.
later on NCR would have a box with 4 486/50s and it could wail.
Allison
< Hm, interesting. I had always thought that DEC made all of their own si
< Does anybody know when DEC started rolling their own?
They did and also used harris, AMD and others as silicon foundries as
the then dec facility was capacity limited. DEC did most of their own
design or formed partnerships with others. The earliest was the 6100
series. Later PDP11 and special support chips.
< I think the burning question would be: How does one debug somehting
< like this?
the chipset or the Pcode? Pcode was easy as any other asm lang. The
chipset had enough stuff available externally o debug easily.
Allison
Of course, the amount is irrelevant. Particle accelerator experiments
have not been able to split lusers up into any constituent parts.
In fact, they may be the elemental particles of intelligence. Of
course, if Congress funds my new Me^H^H ultra high-powered particle
accelerator, we'll be able to test this once and for all.
In short, even if your rounded up all of the lusers, you couldn't
destroy them.
>luser-antiluser[1] pairs are produced wherever there's enough
(minimal!)
>energy :-)....
>
>[1] An antiluser is not clueful, right!
>
>-tony
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
At 01:18 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>< Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, th
>< first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anywa
>< rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple
>< not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actuall
>< available to mere mortals.
>
>BZZT!!! first the PDP-11/03 is the WD chipset, the alpha microsystems
>s100 crate used the same WD chipset. The WD chip set alloed you to create
>your own microcode based cpu. It was the only whole computer WD marketed.
Hm, interesting. I had always thought that DEC made all of their own silicon.
Does anybody know when DEC started rolling their own?
>It didn't run pascal it ran the compiled result P-code which was a stack
>machine.
OIC. Silly Me.
>Scarce, they did make a few. They were expensive though.
>
>< It was a good idea; but as is so common in this business, the old axiom
>< held true:
>< No good deed goes unpunished.
><
>< I think WD lost their shirt on this one . . .
>
>About right. It's was not cheap and hard to expand. However the sales
>of the chipsets to outside producers (DEC and AMS) made them a bundle.
Kinda reminds me of the Moto 88000. The original 88k never gained a
following, and Mot lost their shirt. But much of the 88k's technology
went into the PowerPC, which was a little more successful.
>I'd love to see a manual for the chipset and microcode information.
I think the burning question would be: How does one debug somehting
like this?
Jeff
>
>Allison
>
>Curious. Same goes for people who aren't in a large company and
invent various other things. How did he 'invent' a gun without
owning the necessary tools (at least I doubt a magazine writer would
own this stuff) to process metal? Also, how did Woz make a case for
the Apple ][, etc? Are there companies that take single orders
like this?
There are companies which will build one off prototypes for you. They
are usually listed under something like custom electronics or
fabrication services in the phone book. Building a prototype is not
cheap, the cases, parts, whatever are usually hand machined. Even
plastic cases, since an injection mold would run you over $10K in
startup costs.
Disclaimer: I'm part owner in a company that does this. We have a
substantial investment in machine tools (mills, lathes, welding, plasma
table), a glass shop (neon and cold cathode tubes), plastic machinery
(ovens and router tables), and a paint booth. It's an interesting
business, everything from small computers the size of a deck of cards to
2 ton exhibits for computer companies.
As for Elmer Keith, he didn't start from scratch. He adapted existing
cartridge cases by milling out dies. It's not as complicated as it
sounds, some wildcat (i.e. not production) cartridges can be produced
with nothing more than hand tools.
Jack Peacock
>Would you mind privately e-mailing me and telling me who the heck Elmer
Keith was?
Elmer Keith was a well known gunsmith and magazine writer (was it Guns &
Ammo?). Among other things he's credited with inventing the .44 magnum
pistol round (IIRC) in 1955.
Jack Peacock
O'Toole's Rule states that Murphy (re: Murphy's Law) was an optimist.
I'd do a regular backup in anticipation of the inevitable. I had a Mac
SE with a stiction prone drive that finally died after a couple months
of nudging. The heads can only take so much before they are hopelessly
out of alignmnent.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: I'm Back!
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 8/26/98 3:51 PM
Well, mine still works. It just needs a nudge once in a while at
boot up. Is it going to get worse or can I use it for a while?
> I agree that there is no cure for stiction but on the older 3 1/2" FF
> HDD's I used to gently nudge the spindle flywheel under the drive
> board. This would free the head of the platter goo and typically the
> drive would spin up and boot at which point a complete backup was
> made.
>
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: Re: I'm Back!
>Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
>Date: 8/23/98 1:25 PM
>
>
> > certain hard drive of mine won't spin up unless whacked firmly
> > against a table? Is there anything I can do? This is a laptop
drive. >>
> >
> > stiction. nothing you can do about it.
> >
> Actually an ex-friend of mine had a technique to 'sticky' drives. The
> theory goes if it's hosed anyway and you need to get data off it, you
can
> do things to it that you wouldn't ordinarily do and what do you have
to lose?
>
> At any rate, I've used it before and it seems to work on X percent of
> drives that are totally stuck (especially ones that won't start up
even
> when whacked). You put the drive top-down (circuit side up) on top of
a
> nice toasty monitor and just leave it there for several days or weeks.
I
> don't know if this loosens up some lubricant, expands whatever's
sticky
> or what but if you take the drive off the monitor and hook it up
> immediately and start it up immediately...occasionally you can get it
to
> spin up and give you your data.
>
> The opposite of this is a drive I had (old Miniscribe 20 meg SCSI)
that
> would run for about 2 hours, overheat and 'shut down' (it wouldn't
spin
> down...it'd just start giving errors and was generally useless). I
knew
> it was heat because I could extend the time-till-shutdown to about 3
> hours by pointing a small muffin fan at it. I had NO money at the
> time...except for rent money I was flat broke...and couldn't afford to
> replace the drive and...seeing how it was 1991 and I live in the
> backwater state of Iowa, nobody would loan me a replacement. The Mac
SE
> it was in was also out of warranty.
>
> At any rate, since it was winter it was cold outside so I wrapped the
> drive in a plastic bag, sealed it up with duct tape around the SCSI
> cable, set it on the ledge outside the window, closed the window
without
> squishing the cable and sealed up the crack with duct tape. Left the
> machine and the drive on for something like 2 months that way (though
my
> memory is a bit rusty there) until I could save enough money for a
> replacement. I was worried about condensation inside the bag but it
> never caused a problem. At one point, the drive slid off the ledge
and
> was dangling by the SCSI cable and power cable but the duct tape held
it
> firm. It ran like that for several days until I noticed it wasn't on
the
> ledge.
>
> On a related subject, I've seen and had several Syquest 40 meg drives
> that wouldn't work and wouldn't work and wouldn't work until you
flipped
> them upside and then they'd work just fine. Not the cartridge...the
> whole drive.
>
> Which reminds me...I worked at a typesetting shop once and a guy from
> another department walks in and tells me he's accidentally formatted
his
> syquest cartridge and is there any way to get the data back? So, with
a
> room full of people who knew better I told him, "Oh yeah...if you just
> flip the cartridge over, that'll run it backwards so that if you
format
> it again, that'll do the reverse of formatting it and you data will be
> back." I figured he'd know I was kidding but he DIDN'T and starting
> walking away to DO IT! I stopped him fortunately and recovered his
data
> with proper tools. Of course, a couple months later he thrashed the
> innards of a $1500 magneto-optical drive by jamming an 80 meg syquest
> cartridge into it REAL HARD. I patiently explained to him that when
you
> hear snapping sounds and grinding metal you're generally doing
something
> wrong.
>
> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
>
>
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______________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: I'm Back!
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--
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:33:01 Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>At 10:26 AM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>>
>>> You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
>>> for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
>>> separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
>>> It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
>>
>>Yeah, that is a really cool box. I have one with the documentation and
>>some software.
>>
>>> I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
>>> them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
>>
>>I was offered one locally (California) a couple weeks ago but the buyer
>>wasn't interested in selling it at the price I wanted to buy. If you want
>>I can hook you up with him. Perhaps he's interested in going through the
>>trouble of shipping it for the right price.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Well that's just it, isn't it? I mean, if I had showed up two days before
>I could have gotten them (in working condition) for *NOTHING*. It's not
>the kind of thing I'd pay serious money for (even if I had it), but I'd
>surely grab one if it were going to be junked.
>
>The same junk yard also has a Vector and a distressed N* Horizon.
>
D'oh! I'd almost give my left nut for a N* Horizon. As it is, I know this guy named Ken. I'll gladly give his left nut for one.
Tony
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
At 10:26 AM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>
>> You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
>> for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
>> separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
>> It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
>
>Yeah, that is a really cool box. I have one with the documentation and
>some software.
>
>> I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
>> them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
>
>I was offered one locally (California) a couple weeks ago but the buyer
>wasn't interested in selling it at the price I wanted to buy. If you want
>I can hook you up with him. Perhaps he's interested in going through the
>trouble of shipping it for the right price.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Well that's just it, isn't it? I mean, if I had showed up two days before
I could have gotten them (in working condition) for *NOTHING*. It's not
the kind of thing I'd pay serious money for (even if I had it), but I'd
surely grab one if it were going to be junked.
The same junk yard also has a Vector and a distressed N* Horizon.
Jeff
Well, mine still works. It just needs a nudge once in a while at
boot up. Is it going to get worse or can I use it for a while?
> I agree that there is no cure for stiction but on the older 3 1/2" FF
> HDD's I used to gently nudge the spindle flywheel under the drive
> board. This would free the head of the platter goo and typically the
> drive would spin up and boot at which point a complete backup was
> made.
>
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: Re: I'm Back!
>Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
>Date: 8/23/98 1:25 PM
>
>
> > certain hard drive of mine won't spin up unless whacked firmly
> > against a table? Is there anything I can do? This is a laptop
drive. >>
> >
> > stiction. nothing you can do about it.
> >
> Actually an ex-friend of mine had a technique to 'sticky' drives. The
> theory goes if it's hosed anyway and you need to get data off it, you
can
> do things to it that you wouldn't ordinarily do and what do you have
to lose?
>
> At any rate, I've used it before and it seems to work on X percent of
> drives that are totally stuck (especially ones that won't start up
even
> when whacked). You put the drive top-down (circuit side up) on top of
a
> nice toasty monitor and just leave it there for several days or weeks.
I
> don't know if this loosens up some lubricant, expands whatever's
sticky
> or what but if you take the drive off the monitor and hook it up
> immediately and start it up immediately...occasionally you can get it
to
> spin up and give you your data.
>
> The opposite of this is a drive I had (old Miniscribe 20 meg SCSI)
that
> would run for about 2 hours, overheat and 'shut down' (it wouldn't
spin
> down...it'd just start giving errors and was generally useless). I
knew
> it was heat because I could extend the time-till-shutdown to about 3
> hours by pointing a small muffin fan at it. I had NO money at the
> time...except for rent money I was flat broke...and couldn't afford to
> replace the drive and...seeing how it was 1991 and I live in the
> backwater state of Iowa, nobody would loan me a replacement. The Mac
SE
> it was in was also out of warranty.
>
> At any rate, since it was winter it was cold outside so I wrapped the
> drive in a plastic bag, sealed it up with duct tape around the SCSI
> cable, set it on the ledge outside the window, closed the window
without
> squishing the cable and sealed up the crack with duct tape. Left the
> machine and the drive on for something like 2 months that way (though
my
> memory is a bit rusty there) until I could save enough money for a
> replacement. I was worried about condensation inside the bag but it
> never caused a problem. At one point, the drive slid off the ledge
and
> was dangling by the SCSI cable and power cable but the duct tape held
it
> firm. It ran like that for several days until I noticed it wasn't on
the
> ledge.
>
> On a related subject, I've seen and had several Syquest 40 meg drives
> that wouldn't work and wouldn't work and wouldn't work until you
flipped
> them upside and then they'd work just fine. Not the cartridge...the
> whole drive.
>
> Which reminds me...I worked at a typesetting shop once and a guy from
> another department walks in and tells me he's accidentally formatted
his
> syquest cartridge and is there any way to get the data back? So, with
a
> room full of people who knew better I told him, "Oh yeah...if you just
> flip the cartridge over, that'll run it backwards so that if you
format
> it again, that'll do the reverse of formatting it and you data will be
> back." I figured he'd know I was kidding but he DIDN'T and starting
> walking away to DO IT! I stopped him fortunately and recovered his
data
> with proper tools. Of course, a couple months later he thrashed the
> innards of a $1500 magneto-optical drive by jamming an 80 meg syquest
> cartridge into it REAL HARD. I patiently explained to him that when
you
> hear snapping sounds and grinding metal you're generally doing
something
> wrong.
>
> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
>
>
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______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Dual processors? Another I've never heard of. My 8086 databook says
that up to four can be wired together, but I've never heard of anyone
doing it. Did this particular one work well?
>>> < Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not
been
>>> < able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came with
a PCjr
>>
>>> I've seen it on PC xts, DEC VAXmates and S100 8086 boxen.
>>
>>S100 8086 boxes ?
>>Are there still some left ?
>>I never thought they had shown up in a big mass.
>
>You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
>for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
>separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
>It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
>
>I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
>them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
>
>It was truly depressing. Timing is definitely everything in this
>game.
>
>Jeff
>
>>
>>Gruss
>>H.
>>
>>--
>>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>>HRK
>>
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> At 05:15 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>> Okay, everyone with a spare IMSAI, let's all get together and have a few
>>> "auctions" on e-bay. How about a reserve of $50K, starting bid at $15K,
>>> $1K increments. That's just for a box, cards are extra.
>>> Jack Peacock
>>I think I should realy try to evaluate the value of
>>one of my Pascal Micro Engines (btw: Has anyone out
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, the
> first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anyway),
> rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple I),
> not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actually
> available to mere mortals.
:) - I think there have been a lot of other 16 Bit MPs before.
I'm realy happy that s.o. at least know a Bit about this beast.
in fact, since 12 years (thats when I was glad to aquire my fist
one - it was a kind of dream machine) I just met two people
knowing the name. They are my pride, and no matter who is
visiting my backyard, they always go whoop on ordinary PETs
or Trash's, but when I tell them that these are my number
one items, I get only blank stupid looks :(
Gruss
H.
P.S.: They are two komplete sets (CPU, dual 8" floppy
and terminal) and 2 spare units.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
>> Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, the
>> first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anyway),
>> rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple I),
>> not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actually
>> available to mere mortals.
> I thought the DEC LSI11 (PDP11/03) used a variety of this chip with different
> microcode roms.
Shure, bur the PMS (*G*) utilizes the p-code engine as native
Code - at one time the UCSD p-System was a kind of a ruling
cross platform and cross language standard. The 'p' of p-System
was 'pseudo' not 'Pascal' as most people belive - they had
compilers for Pascal, Fortran, Cobol and Basic - all using
the same p-code engine to run ans all using the same 'OS'.
So to get the system on a new nmachine you just had to write
some low level parts of drivers, and, if the new system had a
different microprocessor, a new p-code interpreter - whoops,
and everything was running.
Cross platform development was an easy thing - write one
application and let it run on PETs, Tandys, CPM/systems,
of coure on APPLE ][s and even on IBM-PCs - oh, did someone
say Java ? *grins*.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Don Maslin wrote:
>On the other hand, one of the outer tracks - the one that contains the
>directory - is accessed much more frequently than any other. It is there
>that I have experienced the greatest number of failures.
This is true for many operating systems on many computers. Often
in the 70's and early 80's drive manufacturers would put circuitry
in the drives that would randomly move the heads off the directory
tracks after a certain period of time of non-access. (I have
several Kennedy 14" SMD drives that will do this. They have the
nice feature of a clear enclosure so that you can see what exactly
the heads are doing at any point in time!)
Tim.
< > IIRC, you were about to write some code to hook up one of thes
< > parallel-IDE HD kits to a CP/M machine with an EPP. Could this be mad
< Problem is that most of the older 8-bit systems don't have any way
< to read information coming back on the parallel port -- at best, it
< would involve using some of the status lines instead of data lines,
As I may have said off list.
Not all parallel ports on CP/M systems are useable. There are many that
could be configured to be usable, NS* horison, Compupro interfacer
series and even the AMPROLB come to mind for this kind of hack. But
the printerports as they stand on ALL CPM machines are configured very
different from PCs.
< manufacturer to another. It would probably be easier to build a
< ST-506 (or SASI) hardware (with firmware) adapter to IDE than to
ST506 to IDE???? Nah! Direct to IDE has been done already, see TCJ
GIDE project. Some CPM systems can hang SCSI already, my ampro and
SB180 do.
< (Then again, Allison's a lot smarter than I am and possibly a bit
< more stubborn -- I tend to stop banging my head against a brick wall
< when I've barely reached the empty space in the cinderblock).
No, I just know where the hammer and chisel are. ;)
it was a speculative hack to see if I could find the data for how one of
the PP adaptors actually talk... it's a big secret!
Just remember a hacker never bangs their head against the wall. That's
for some one in corperate to do.
Allison
> The H/Z-100's also ran CP/M-85. As some of you know it was a dual
> processor machine (8085/8088). Served well as a transition machine for
> those who had lots of CP/M applications and were moving into the then-new
> MessDos world. I've got two low-profile models (Z-110's, the model
Reminiscent of the DEC Rainbow. ISTR that the CP/M on that would quite
happily execute both .COM files, which it scheduled on the Z80, and .CMD
files, which ran on the 8088. I'm not sure what it did if you
accidentally tried to run a Messydos prog under CP/M, though... perhaps
I should try it someday.
Philip.
In a message dated 98-08-24 19:06:08 EDT, you write:
<>< > Well, it'll fit into the landfill better anyway...
> > Here's a question: what _obsolete_ computer would you choose for this
> > miracle machine, assuming you have unlimited power?
> > My choice would have to be an IBM PC just to vent..
>Which IBM PC? I would most likely choose a garden variety C64. >>
nah, C64 isnt good enough. IBM machines are much heavier and will do more
damage.
I have had a look at the TEK 4052 instruction set against that of the
Motorola 6800. Most of the 6800 instructions are present - the one
exception is DAA.
Tek also introduce 43 new instructions, but I don't know what any of
them do except NOP2 which presumably doesn't do anything at all.
More reading required on my part, but I guess a port of FLEX wouldn't be
too hard provided it could cope with the BIOS, which on a storage tube
machine is bound to be weird.
That said, the Tek 4052 has a far better line editor than many
non-storage environments I've met...
BTW, I've had one request to provide a write-up of my VCF talk for those
who can't get to the VCF itself. Is there any demand for this? Sam, do
you want this for imclusion in a "conference proceedings" sort of
document? It will be difficult, though, to include all the demo program
outputs (must get my plotter working again!), manual pages, etc.
Philip.
At 05:19 PM 8/24/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Does anyone still have that classic cover from an early issue of
>Interface Age? The one where the programmer has just buried a fire axe
>in an ASR-33 teletype.
Speaking of which, anyone else remember the series of ads from (iirc)
SmartTerm that said "Now that you have SmartTerm, what are you going to do
with your terminal?" and featured pictures of converted terminals being
used as a Fishbowl, a Mailbox, and a Dollhouse. There might have been
others, too. I always wanted to do the mailbox bit. Anyone still have
copies of these (or better still, scanned versions?) Maybe I'll see if
SmartTerm is still in business...
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 05:15 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> < Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not been
>> < able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came with a PCjr
>
>> I've seen it on PC xts, DEC VAXmates and S100 8086 boxen.
>
>S100 8086 boxes ?
>Are there still some left ?
>I never thought they had shown up in a big mass.
You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
It was truly depressing. Timing is definitely everything in this
game.
Jeff
>
>Gruss
>H.
>
>--
>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>HRK
>
> Okay, everyone with a spare IMSAI, let's all get together and have a few
> "auctions" on e-bay. How about a reserve of $50K, starting bid at $15K,
> $1K increments. That's just for a box, cards are extra.
> Jack Peacock
I think I should realy try to evaluate the value of
one of my Pascal Micro Engines (btw: Has anyone out
there one ? ).
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
< Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, th
< first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anywa
< rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple
< not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actuall
< available to mere mortals.
BZZT!!! first the PDP-11/03 is the WD chipset, the alpha microsystems
s100 crate used the same WD chipset. The WD chip set alloed you to create
your own microcode based cpu. It was the only whole computer WD marketed.
The chipset had a basic cpu/datapath and microms that contained the
microcode. So the basic chips with differing microcode could be literally
be different systems. Even DEC had both a WCS and EIS/FIS microm
extensions for the 11/03.
It didn't run pascal it ran the compiled result P-code which was a stack
machine.
Scarce, they did make a few. They were expensive though.
< It was a good idea; but as is so common in this business, the old axiom
< held true:
< No good deed goes unpunished.
<
< I think WD lost their shirt on this one . . .
About right. It's was not cheap and hard to expand. However the sales
of the chipsets to outside producers (DEC and AMS) made them a bundle.
I'd love to see a manual for the chipset and microcode information.
Allison
< > I've seen it on PC xts, DEC VAXmates and S100 8086 boxen.
<
< S100 8086 boxes ?
< Are there still some left ?
< I never thought they had shown up in a big mass.
define big mass. Compupro did a bunch of card all the way to 386s for
s100 as did macrotech and others.
I even have a compupro 8085/8088 box that runs at 10mhz, built at a time
when the xt was still 4.77 or maybe the clones at 8mhz.
It runs CPM80, CPM86, Turbodos, MSdos, CCPM.
Allison
> < Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not been
> < able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came with a PCjr
> I've seen it on PC xts, DEC VAXmates and S100 8086 boxen.
S100 8086 boxes ?
Are there still some left ?
I never thought they had shown up in a big mass.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
IMHO, the Sol is the next most important early commercial microcomputer
after the Altair and IMSAI. Although it had 5 S-100 slots, it really was a
single-board computer with built-in 64x16 video, serial and parallel ports,
keyboard, cassette tape interface, and ROM monitor which supported its use
as a serial terminal supporting VDT escape sequences as well as being usable
as a true computer. Cassette-based software included 5k BASIC, 16k Extended
BASIC, FOCAL, PILOT, ALS-8 (Assembly Language System), arcade style "real
time" games (Target, Trek80) as well as BASIC games and 8080 Chess. Its 8"
Helios disk system was expensive and the PerSci drives finicky - which is
why so many SOL users opted for a NorthStar controller and 5.25" drives.
Contact jordan_ruderman(a)supermac.com - he has been compiling an audio CD-ROM
of all the cassette software. You can substitute a portable CD player in
place of the SOL's cassette player, or just dub copies onto cassette (to
capture that ol' time flavor!). Also, if your keyboard is acting flakey, it
may be because the little foam pads inside have deteriorated over the years.
Contact Jim Willing at the Computer Garage http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw for
DIY replacements or he will do it for you. Jim is very knowledgable about
SOLs.
Bob Stek
Saver of lost SOLs
On 25 Aug 1998 22:29:33 GMT, george(a)agora.rdrop.com (George Rachor) wrote:
>I've got a SOL Terminal computer dug out from a pile of stuff I obtained
>from a
>Goodwill several years ago. Unfortunatly there is no disk drive with it.
Ie:
>I don't want to part with it but surely I can do something with it besides
>displaying it. Is there anything I can do with this critter without a disk
>this creature usuable for anything?
>
>George Rachor
>
>george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com
At 05:15 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Okay, everyone with a spare IMSAI, let's all get together and have a few
>> "auctions" on e-bay. How about a reserve of $50K, starting bid at $15K,
>> $1K increments. That's just for a box, cards are extra.
>> Jack Peacock
>
>I think I should realy try to evaluate the value of
>one of my Pascal Micro Engines (btw: Has anyone out
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, the
first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anyway),
rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple I),
not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actually
available to mere mortals.
It was a good idea; but as is so common in this business, the old axiom
held true:
No good deed goes unpunished.
I think WD lost their shirt on this one . . .
Jeff
I agree that there is no cure for stiction but on the older 3 1/2" FF
HDD's I used to gently nudge the spindle flywheel under the drive
board. This would free the head of the platter goo and typically the
drive would spin up and boot at which point a complete backup was
made.
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: I'm Back!
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 8/23/98 1:25 PM
> certain hard drive of mine won't spin up unless whacked firmly
> against a table? Is there anything I can do? This is a laptop drive. >>
>
> stiction. nothing you can do about it.
>
Actually an ex-friend of mine had a technique to 'sticky' drives. The
theory goes if it's hosed anyway and you need to get data off it, you can
do things to it that you wouldn't ordinarily do and what do you have to lose?
At any rate, I've used it before and it seems to work on X percent of
drives that are totally stuck (especially ones that won't start up even
when whacked). You put the drive top-down (circuit side up) on top of a
nice toasty monitor and just leave it there for several days or weeks. I
don't know if this loosens up some lubricant, expands whatever's sticky
or what but if you take the drive off the monitor and hook it up
immediately and start it up immediately...occasionally you can get it to
spin up and give you your data.
The opposite of this is a drive I had (old Miniscribe 20 meg SCSI) that
would run for about 2 hours, overheat and 'shut down' (it wouldn't spin
down...it'd just start giving errors and was generally useless). I knew
it was heat because I could extend the time-till-shutdown to about 3
hours by pointing a small muffin fan at it. I had NO money at the
time...except for rent money I was flat broke...and couldn't afford to
replace the drive and...seeing how it was 1991 and I live in the
backwater state of Iowa, nobody would loan me a replacement. The Mac SE
it was in was also out of warranty.
At any rate, since it was winter it was cold outside so I wrapped the
drive in a plastic bag, sealed it up with duct tape around the SCSI
cable, set it on the ledge outside the window, closed the window without
squishing the cable and sealed up the crack with duct tape. Left the
machine and the drive on for something like 2 months that way (though my
memory is a bit rusty there) until I could save enough money for a
replacement. I was worried about condensation inside the bag but it
never caused a problem. At one point, the drive slid off the ledge and
was dangling by the SCSI cable and power cable but the duct tape held it
firm. It ran like that for several days until I noticed it wasn't on the
ledge.
On a related subject, I've seen and had several Syquest 40 meg drives
that wouldn't work and wouldn't work and wouldn't work until you flipped
them upside and then they'd work just fine. Not the cartridge...the
whole drive.
Which reminds me...I worked at a typesetting shop once and a guy from
another department walks in and tells me he's accidentally formatted his
syquest cartridge and is there any way to get the data back? So, with a
room full of people who knew better I told him, "Oh yeah...if you just
flip the cartridge over, that'll run it backwards so that if you format
it again, that'll do the reverse of formatting it and you data will be
back." I figured he'd know I was kidding but he DIDN'T and starting
walking away to DO IT! I stopped him fortunately and recovered his data
with proper tools. Of course, a couple months later he thrashed the
innards of a $1500 magneto-optical drive by jamming an 80 meg syquest
cartridge into it REAL HARD. I patiently explained to him that when you
hear snapping sounds and grinding metal you're generally doing something
wrong.
Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
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From: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: I'm Back!
In-Reply-To: <57d773ed.35dfd743(a)aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
well, I found out none of the NEC versa laptops are for sale;
apparently some VP is holding onto them for some reason. We have maybe
30 7100/66or80 PPC macs; most with 16-32 mb ram, additional vid cards,
token ring. IIci's, about 15? with 20mb ram each. 6 Quadra 950 servers
with typically 2 300mb scsi drives and between 25-50 mb ram. ummm...
maybe 50? or more DuoDocks, both the Duo 230 or 280, and the Dock. don't
know the possibility status of selling these. several sony video
monitors that are touch screens, accept various inputs, came with weird
computerized videodisc systems.
we used to sell these things as scrap, and paid! them to take them, and
then got rebates for 10cents a pound, or sometimes we ended up owing
them. He is actively looking for vendors to buy, so we could probably
make an offer for pallet(s) since I'm the only one doing any work with
them. I will also do the legwork in my spare time, for this.
However, someone else should be the point man, so to speak... I can't
really get involved. I've tried, believe me. I'll try to do some more
inventory type stuff... But there's alot. Also a whole room full of an
IBM 3480? mainframeish type of thing, with disk boxes etc. looks like a
room full of washing machines...
-Eric
> Know those lame "JoeBob's_Random_Browser_NOW!" buttons?
> I slightly edited one (Yes, this is relevant.)
> Go look at http://makoto.umtec.com
> This is really interesting coming from my MicroVAX...
> I think I'll do a ITS-NOW! button next, with a link to a copy of "The HACRTN"...
36 Bits Now ?
Let me guess - You own one of these nice old BULL minis
using 9 Bit Bytes ?
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
It's a really wacky IC. It's a 68 pin package.
Looks kinda like this
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-----------------------------------------------+
| +----------+ |
| +-----+ | | |
| | | R | | |
| +-----+ | | |
| +----------+ |
+-----------------------------------------------+
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Both the boxes are ceramic squares (grey ceramic, like an eprom or
something). The little R looks like a surface mount resistor or cap. The
bigger ceramic square has:
SMS300-1
0002624
001 A 7620 on it
The field of the chip is white with grey zebra stripe lines running to
each of the pins. On the top of the IC is screened:
00020730001C
In gold and on the bottom:
SMS INC 2075-0001
In black.
What the heck is this thing?!?!? I know it's probably an engineering
sample, but of what?
Tony
<On the other hand, one of the outer tracks - the one that contains the
< directory - is accessed much more frequently than any other. It is ther
< that I have experienced the greatest number of failures.
Oh so true.
As mentioned any "open" drive like floppies and older carts the end points
of the travel is more suspect than the bulk of the length.
Allison
< I have a couple of cards that are exactly the reverse of what you plan.
< They are 3.5" form factor, and built by WDC for Compaq. I can only
< conclude that Compaq needed more IDEs than were available at one time,
< early on.
Going from IDE to MFM/RLL is trivial. scrounge up a 100x ATA bus
controller and hang it on. Same idea as the article using the xt 8bit
1002.
The original plan was to figure out the protocal the parallel port
SQ270 (internally ide) disk uses.
Allison
I remember someone asking here about VLB ethernet cards (long time ago)...
So, here: http://www.ahhz.com/dspecial.htm
10 pack for $20 :)
af
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam Fritzler |
afritz(a)delphid.ml.org | Animals who are not penguins can
afritz(a)iname.com | can only wish they were.
http://delphid.ml.org/~afritz/ | -- Chicago Reader
http://www.pst.com/ | 15 Oct 1982
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On <http://webreview.com/wr/pub/98/07/31/frames/index.html>,
Michael Swaine (of Dr Dobbs early days) writes:
>
>When I first started writing full-time about computer
>technology back in 1981, I worked with some suspicious
>characters who have gone on to become legends in their own
>minds. Folks like John Markoff, now holding the New York
>Times to its well-known high standard of accuracy on all
>topics technical, and John Dvorak, ubiquitous curmudgeon
>and loose cannon on the media deck. At that time Dvorak
>was launching a new column called Inside Track, and he
>explained to me the hidden significance of the title:
>
> "On disk platters," he said, "the inside track
> is the least reliable one."
>
>It was a very popular column.
Of which ancient systems was this true?
Today's CD-ROMs are the opposite, I've heard: as the head positions
to the outermost area of the disc, it tends to push dust along the
guides, and many CD drives accumulate a pile of dust out there,
preventing it from reaching "the end."
- John
Just a quick reninder:
Friday August 28, tequilaberries, 6:00pm
Please let me know if you are planning to attend, I'll be there early to
reserve a table.
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
Got it set. I got impatient and used GSETUP31 to initially set the
scrambled date, time and drive types to get it to boot and found the
setup program from Mem-Tel on the hard drive (duh). I copied it off for
future use so if anyone needs it just ask.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
ICQ UIN #1714857
AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
< > Here's a question: what _obsolete_ computer would you choose for this
< > miracle machine, assuming you have unlimited power?
<
< I'd get out my best documentary camera, place an Altair on the catapult
< and then film you guys trying to catch it. :-)
I'd want to be the one pulling the catapult release. ;)
But, before I did that one it would be a TI99/4a... nice cpu hobbled by a
really bad design.
Allison
The only problem with the TI99/4a would be that it isn't that heavy.
Something like a TRS-80 or something with a CRT would be a little bit more
eventful. Not only do you get the fun, you get the fireworks, too :-)
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Shame, shame, shame
> Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 10:37 PM
>
> But, before I did that one it would be a TI99/4a... nice cpu hobbled by a
> really bad design.
>
> Allison
>
Does anyone out there know of some sort of gizmo that could be made that
would convert an old RLL or MFM Hard drive to be used with a parallel
interface? I've seen then for IDE, but that's it. I've got a couple of
old HD's laying around that I'd like to put to use, but there's no room in
any of my computers to put them.
By the way, does anyone have any old Apple or TRS-80 external disk drives
that they'd want to get rid of for a few bucks? I don't need the drive
itself. I need the case and power supply and that's it. If they're
TRS-80, I could use the drive itself, too.
I'm also looking for disk-based (and tape-based) software for the TRS-80
Model III. I'm especially looking for the TRS-DOS operating system for it
(floppy got ran over by an office chair *cringe*).
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
At 10:31 PM 8/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Yeah, I know a number of musicians using STs in preference to more
>modern PC VESA/PCI sound cards -- there is some program out of
>Germany (dongle protected) that apparently has yet to be equalled on
>Wintel platforms.
Probably Cubase -- which I would be using if a) I had and money, b) I had
any talent, and c) I had any time. Cubase Audio for the Falcon (68030)
offered (iirc) 8 or 16 track digital recording straight out of the box.
Serious digital recording & MIDI for around a grand. (Used Falcon, Cubase,
and a big hard drive.)
Also, there are ST clones available from (iirc) Canada and/or Germany with
fast 68060 processors, tower cases, IDE and SCSI support, true
multi-tasking, etc. The Medusa, if I recall correctly.
And, while we're on the subject, anyone get to the World of Atari in Las
Vegas last weekend?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 06:20 AM 8/25/98 +0000, you wrote:
>computer flame-war :^)) The Atari 8-bit and CBM newsgroups are still very
>active. They'll be glad to help you get your 8-bits up and running. New
prgms.
>are still being written for them by avid 8-bitters. I have C64 1541 and
Atari
I know a guy who uses Atari 1200XL's (same series, newer version) with
65816 CPU's, internal hard drives, and a connection to his desktop PC to
use it as a big hard drive/CD-ROM unit. Pretty cool.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 06:20 AM 8/25/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> 520ST does indeed run GEM; it's about equivalent to a Mac Plus or so.
>
> Not to start a flame-war or anything but I have a 4 meg Mac+ and there's no
>way it is the equivalent of an ST. The only thing they had in common was the
Well, certainly, a 4mb Mac+ (with what current version of the opsys?) is
going to be faster etc. than a stock 520ST running TOS 1.0. But, compare a
4MB ST with TOS 1.4 (or 1.6?) with "the various add-ons" and I think you'll
find they're pretty equivalent. Vastly different footprints, however,
something that I find rather interesting.
Mind you, a lot more software was developed for the Mac, at least partially
because Tramiel never bothered to advertise the ST (or for that matter,
stocked them in the US.)
> I have friends that use it in live performance and it is still used
>extensively in studios, especially in Europe, tho the Atari Falcon or one of
>it's clones are now preferred because of thier built-in DTD capabilities.
Yep. I got two Falcons just before my mom passed away; Shortly thereafter
I moved back home to take care of my dad and my studio is still mostly
disassembled. *sigh* Someday, however, I'll get it all set up again, and
finish off the album I was working on.
>> The 800XL is an updated version of the venerable 800. Has BASIC built-in
>> and only one cartridge. Nice machine.
>>
> There's a local BBS that uses 8-bit Ataris he even has an Inet feed.
Really? What BBS is that? Our club is running an ST BBS, but we're
looking at switching to either a DOS- or Linux-based system so as to
(someday) get an internet mail connection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 06:44 PM 8/24/98 -0800, you wrote:
>running. I've got a 520ST, which is unfortuanatly missing the powersupply
>for the floppy drive, and a TT030, both of which are TOS based systems.
>TOS and GEM are related. It's actually a VERY cool system as the entire
>OS, which is a GUI, is in ROM. However, it is a single task system, and in
>my not so humble opinion the interface sucks. Still I think they are VERY
>COOL! I know saying it sucks, and saying it's cool doesn't make a lot of
>sense :^)
TOS and GEM are related somewhat like DOS and Windows are related -- GEM
runs on top of TOS, but unlike windows, you don't really notice it.
There are add-ons and upgrades to GEM that do allow true multi-tasking. A
quick web search should turn them up. I've been happy with GEM as-is as
I've found it easier to run multiple ST's than to keep on top of the latest
and greatest opsys's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 08:01 PM 8/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
>a semi-functional Wang PC with a splitting maul is very cathartic when
[...]
>Plus it helps keep me from feeling like I need to take it out on my users.
Ah, but there are so many more users than classic computers... and
besides, which is more desirable to have around? 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
> Yeah, that's something I always had a problem with, the idea that
> vegetarians are peaceful and meat-eaters are violent without cause.
> Well, my ancestors labored for literally millions of years to get
> me to the top of the food chain and I will not waste their effort.
>
> Of course, that's with animals, who (despite PETA) have no rights.
> As a proper libertarian, I can never initiate force (or fraud)
> against another person. Though if force is initiated against me, I
> am justified in responding with whatever is required.
>Department?
Does that mean that if someone at a hamfest threatened you with an IBM XT
that you'd nail 'em with a C=64 <g>?
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
I'd have to say ANYTHING made by Toshiba - old or new. Although... it'd
probably fall apart before it hits the ground....
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Max Eskin <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Shame, shame, shame
> Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 6:45 PM
>
Well, it'll fit into the landfill better anyway...
Here's a question: what _obsolete_ computer would you choose for this
miracle machine, assuming you have unlimited power?
My choice would have to be an IBM PC just to vent..
>
>> Plus consider that you could then ask for the smashed machines and
>> restore them. THere is unlikely to be any serious damage except
>> drives and CRTs. You could certainly scrounge the chips.
>
>Max, depending on how large this catapult is, and therefore how high
the
>object goes, an object hurling back to earth at 100MPH would certainly
end
>up in state hardly susceptible to repair.
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>Ever onward.
>
> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 08/09/98]
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>On drives that store the same number of bits/track - most floppies apart
>from Commodore and Mac ones, most 'raw-interfaced' hard disks (ST506,
>SMD, RK05, RL01, etc), the inner track has the smallest area storing each
>bit (think about it, the inner track is shorter).
So PC disks are less reliable then Mac and Commodore disks, then?
Tom
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
I have recently acquired a Data General Nova and an honest-to-god
Teletype---I think it's an ASR-35. My roommate is furious, but that's
beside the point.
The point is this machine is much older than I am; this is going to be a
completely new (and fascinating) experience. I am 21 years old, and if you
do the math (and if I've done the math correctly) you'll find that the
Nova is 8 years older than me.
I don't want to screw this up. The guy who I got it from knew a lot about
it; he got it in 1982 and used it quite a lot. He told me a lot of stuff
that was important, but I wasn't expecting what I got and was too
overwhelmed to think to take notes.
At any rate, the first thing I have to do is take an inventory, and after
that I think I shall require excruciating amounts of assistence from the
list making sure it's ready to be fired up (and after that, making
sure I can run it properly)---but I know that you all are up to it. (:
Wish me luck.
ok
r.
< Does anyone out there know of some sort of gizmo that could be made tha
< would convert an old RLL or MFM Hard drive to be used with a parallel
< interface? I've seen then for IDE, but that's it. I've got a couple o
< old HD's laying around that I'd like to put to use, but there's no room
< any of my computers to put them.
Parallel interface on what? PCs are the only ones you can count on for a
consistant (sorta) interface. Few others are similar. To go from
parallel (assuming it's bidirectional) you would need something like
a WD1002HDO adaptor and some custom logic and software.
VERY NON TRIVIAL! It would be a fair amount of proframming effort and
hhardware to pull it together.
< By the way, does anyone have any old Apple or TRS-80 external disk drive
< that they'd want to get rid of for a few bucks? I don't need the drive
< itself. I need the case and power supply and that's it. If they're
< TRS-80, I could use the drive itself, too.
Apple and trs80 drives are not interchangeable though the case/PS would
be. I think I still have one with a drive.
Allison
At 05:34 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>It never ceases to amaze me that, when offered an opportunity to
>celebrate in a positive manner, groups of people will choose to smash,
>burn and destroy things instead. If it were some kind of demonstration
Hear hear! I don't get it either!
>Myself, I prefer dancing and singing to celebrate things. What happened
>to dressing up in costumes and building floats and giving away free stuff
>like candy or food?
Well, here in San Francisco, people still do that on holidays... well,
actually, they do that everyday... 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Speaking of Memorex-Telex, could someone please summarize their
history? Just curious, always wondering.
>Got it set. I got impatient and used GSETUP31 to initially set the
>scrambled date, time and drive types to get it to boot and found the
>setup program from Mem-Tel on the hard drive (duh). I copied it off for
>future use so if anyone needs it just ask.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Russ Blakeman
> RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
> Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
> Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
> Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
> ICQ UIN #1714857
> AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN"
> * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> "On disk platters," he said, "the inside track
> is the least reliable one."
>
This was true when drives were formatted with the same number of sectors
on each track, regardless of position. Because the inner tracks had a
shorter circumference, the bit density was highest on the innermost
track. Now that drives are not directly addressed by
cylinder/head/sector, the number of sectors can vary by track, so bit
density is evenly distributed, outer tracks have more sectors than inner
tracks.
Where you see this limitation was on older MFM and RLL drives where the
controller was not integrated onto the drive itself (pre-SCSI and
pre-IDE).
Jack Peacock
>However, as a sysadmin, every so often I feel the primal urge to "get
even" with the machines that are a constant pain in my arse.
Disassembling
a semi-functional Wang PC with a splitting maul is very cathartic when
things get to that point.
Does anyone still have that classic cover from an early issue of
Interface Age? The one where the programmer has just buried a fire axe
in an ASR-33 teletype.
That's one every TTY user can identify with, watching your listing
slowly crawl across the page at 10 CPS.
Jack Peacock
At 05:34 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Myself, I prefer dancing and singing to celebrate things. What happened
>to dressing up in costumes and building floats and giving away free stuff
>like candy or food?
>
>Ah well...
Blame the lawyers and the liabililty laws... (from a one time float
builder and one who remembers when it was actually fun to be in a parade)
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
