- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Wait...all matter resists current, and all matter can be forced to emit light, so any item is a 'Light-emmitting resistor'. > >> I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. > >The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. >Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) > >> >> If you wish to piss off the counter help at your local parts >> shop... ask for a 'Light-Emitting Resistor'. Hardware stores and >> markets have them too. > >You mean a light-emitting non-linear load? > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

2
1
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Kenback 1

by rax＠warbaby.com

No, I didn't find one for 10 bucks, but I was wondering if anyone knows about how many were made? R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 6 months

1
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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What amazes me is that no one has ever marketed a mainframe-like < machine out of modern processors. Someone mentioned they had made What like the VAX 4000 or 6000 series, HP3000, PDP-11/23 or later. The list could be very long. < one out of a 286 and some z80s, but why did no single company ever < sell any? I would think such machines could be very useful. OTOH, it < makes more money to sell 1000 machines than 3 machines and 1000 dumb Lessee, I have a Compupro 8/16 (8085/8088) s100 crate that also has a MPX1 an 8085 board used to do IO independent of the main cpu. A later version of the machine was made with 186, 286 and even 386 cpus. Some of the VME and multibus crates were cpu intensive as well. NCR in '91 had a killer four 486 cpu box. The DEC VAX6250 and 6400 were two and four cpus systems. The point being companies DID. They made money. They were too specialized(some cases) and difficult(some cases) to program compared to simpler single cpus. PCs have at least several CPUs, the 486 I'm running has an 8042 (keyboard interface), one in the tape backup, one in the SCSI CDrom, several 8051s(each scsi drive) and even one in the keyboard. no doubt I may have missed one or two. < terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... Oh dear, here we go again. You are unaware on Connection machines, DEC LAVCs, Transputers and lots of other multiple processor configurations. The reason this is not usually done is it's expensive when it can be reduced to one primary cpu. Allison

27 years, 6 months

1
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Webpage up; input needed

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Hello everyone! I got my new website going, and I'd like a bit of input. I'm starting a little "computer museum", and need some info. Just click go to <http://members.tripod.com/general_1/>, and go to the "Command Central" link. I'm currently working on the Compaq Portable and WANG WLTC page. If anyone has any pics and descriptions of old 'pooters (or putters, depending on how old), just email them to me, and I'll try to get them on the page. ThAnX, -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> Don't forget to sign my guestbook :^)

27 years, 6 months

1
0
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Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)freegate.com> wrote: < > Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?) < > that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on t < > moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of < > computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyon < > the list have that information? "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the moon." I find that a loaded quote because it's unbounded. Does this refer to ground support, design and simulation systems or what? Granted the computers that flew were not Crays, they didn't have to be. They were sized for the mission as it was conceived and then had every ounce of weight pared out. They however are unique as they ( I believe from from Gemini on) were IC based, had to work at extremes of temperature, be compact, not use too much power or generate a lot of heat that was difficult to remove. those are imposing requirements for the time (pre 1968 technology!!). In the case of Gemini, Apollo and the Shuttle they also were flown as stable designs when better technology was available. That's a result of the need to freeze the design and program it before it could be flown. Considering the capsule(Apollo) was complete in 1967 (I may be off a year) for Apollo, that means a lot of fancy design work and programming. If we look we may see the predecessor to the CADC in the space program. Now considering the laptop has had some 15 plus years of development history beyond the space program it should be better! Allison

27 years, 6 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< And none of those tricks scale up very well for implementing high-perfor < versions of standard microprocessor architectures. The point was that The point is why copy the x86! there are better ways. I don't think I want to try and do the cache and pipeline registers as they eat transistors like mad being mostly memory structures. Copying a PII is also copying how much ram? It would not be a practical venture. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Week End Finds

by dogas＠leading.net

>Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web >search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find >programming info if that is possible. >Thanks >Francois Hi Francois, I just ordered one of these machines ( inbound mail ) send me some mail to dogas(a)leading.net I should have it by week end... - Mike

27 years, 6 months

1
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Treasure chest!

by Marion.Bates＠Dartmouth.EDU

I just went through a pile of stuff in the storage room I use for an office, and found the following (which the boss is letting me keep): - complete set of manuals for Lisa OS and 7/7 apps!!! - complete set of original 7/7 disks - Smalltalk pre-beta release version 0.3 for the Mac (is this a port of the Smalltalk that ran on the Xerox PARC? I'm pretty ignorant about that.) - Manuals for Lisa Pascal Workshop - MacWorks manuals - assorted diskettes of old Mac/Lisa stuff Today was a happy day. -- MB

27 years, 6 months

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Week End Finds

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi, This week end I found a TI 99/4a Beige brand new in the box never used accompanied with the epansion box (my arms still hurt from carrying this stuff) and a box of software for it (Microsoft multiplan among other word processors and databases) Apparently it came from a dealer since it also had a bunch of deal training material, price lists and flyers with Bill Cosby. Also got a couple of color pong machines: a Radio shack and a Ricochet. A National Semiconductor ADVERSARY (pong style?) And a Sharp PC-1500A with the printer and cassette interface, it was used as an embedded system for a Pulmonary Analysis Computer (pretty good example of interfacing a pocket computer to the external world) the extra hardware has a D/A and A/D converter pretty cool. Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find programming info if that is possible. Thanks Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon

27 years, 6 months

1
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Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

According to the November '95 Popular Science, p88: The Apollo 11 guidance computer had 2K of RAM and 36K of ROM, and barreled along at 1 MHz. The circuits consisted of 24 modules contained in two trays, weighed 70 pounds, and required 70 W of power. To issue commands, the astronauts used a unique interface that consisted of a number pad and an LED readout. Commands were issued in "noun-verb" format; the astronauts would key in numbers that were codes for commands like "display velocity" or "change program". Nasa computers on the ground were somewhat more powerful, but not much, according to Merritt Jones, a space physicist for the Gemini and Apollo programs who now works for IBM. " The machine used in the mission control center, which was the most powerful commercial machine at the time, could execute 1 million instructions per second," he recalls. "It cost $4 million and took up most of the room. It had one megabyte of memory." next comes a description of modern computers and how laptops can do '90 Million Instructions per second and is small enough...' >things into and out of memory rather than bothering the CPU with all that. >To facilitate this the mainframes typically have fairly complex snooping >caches for effective management of paging activity. > >The Crays and ConnectionMachines have, in the past, had the advantage of >being vector processors where typical mainframes were often SIMD machines >at best and simple pipelines at worst. Microprocessors caught up with the >SIMD wave with multi-ALU pipelining, and with the Katmai and AMD-K7 they >will get many of the vector features that made so-called "super computers" >so fast. > >If you build a "PC" (Pentium II class) with 256MB of SDRAM and dual PCI >based fast/wide SCSI controllers running to a striped RAID array of "good" >SCSI disks you can "beat" a lot of mainframes. Of course you best them with >a $10,000 PC. > >Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?), >that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the >moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of the >computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyone on >the list have that information? > >--Chuck > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

1
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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by roblwill＠usaor.net

MHz is MegaHertz. mHz is milliHertz. I think mhz is a typo. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors > Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 7:36 PM > > > Eventually, the early 386s were only 16mhz! > > Is mhz == MegaHertz or is mhz == milliHertz? > If so, that could be why this machine seems SO slow. > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 >

27 years, 6 months

2
1
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TOPS-20

by mbg＠world.std.com

> Uh, screen does in fact allow you to do this. Sorry, from your description it didn't sound like it would do it at all... I'll have to take a look at it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

3
3
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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 19, 12:27, Kevan Heydon wrote: > On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, I wrote: > > > > It would be interesting just to see how many collectors in the UK (and > > mainland Europe) would be interested in going to a UK VCF. > Well the replies never really got started. I only got five replies, all > said they were interested. I can only conclude that there are not that > many UK collectors on this list. And we can probably guess who they were, too. Ah, well, it makes it easier to budget for a barbecue, I guess... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

1
0
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Belly laugh on eBay

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

haha, that is a laugh! 2011 is a 1992 era 80286-10 IBM PS/1. has a good cuteness factor, but rather closed in design though. In a message dated 10/19/98 2:40:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time, kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com writes: > This item description on eBay says it all: > > 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 > > BWAHAHAHAHA!

27 years, 6 months

1
0
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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were Eventually, the early 386s were only 16mhz! < there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? < BTW, what did the Cray I use? A lot 300+ boards of ECL logic. ECL was the fasest of the fast for that time and it's density was relatively low. It was so densely packed that the cooling was embedded refrigeration! Allison

27 years, 6 months

2
1
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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< can not compete with a high-end monolithic microprocessor. The laws of < physics conspire against it. They do. There are ways around that. Tricks like massively parallel or very wide words to name a few. < Motorola claims to have started shipping ECL integrated circuits in 1962 In 1967 I got my first MECL 1000 parts to play with as they had dropped to hobby prices, still have a few. They were difficult to work with and fast by any standrd then. FYI: I was applying them as linear devices. I do know for sure that in '64 those parts existed but they were somthing like $20-30 each. Then again I remember seeing the infamous 709 opamp the early 60s at $120 each! I may add that a friend gave me the "engineering junkbox" from his company in 1968 and the parts in there besides transistors included RTL (914, 923, MC7xx) and a few opamps of the 709/741 series. I learned a lot working with those parts. I was only lucky kid! < Why were people still building computers using discrete transistors for < years after that? Many of the high-end computers used discrete < implementations of non-saturating logic that was very similar to ECL. The bias points for ECL were hard to control and level shifts were a source of errors. Also they were more expensive than RTL and the DTL (pre ttl) parts. Also ECL requires transmission line style layout and that would not be widely adopted until three or more layer PCBs would be in use. There were also those that objected to the power required by ECL and it's resulting heat (back to the bias shift problem). The problem is once ICs made an appearance in the mid 60s they were being used but only where cost justified them (they werent cheap! nor were they fast!). Another item forgotten is the design cycles were measured in years then, so by time the massive transistor machines started running the SSI ICs were starting down the price curve. In practical terms the first massive transistor machine was the TX2 an experimental one of a kind. It would only about 10 years later when the first IC machines started appearing in the late '60. By then the 1nS/ft propagation limit was becomming obvious to designers (ask Cray!). Allison

27 years, 6 months

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1
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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< A 486 is certainly faster in terms of CPU horsepower. But a 486 < has no I/O horsepower whatsoever. Nor does any sort of Pentium. Problem with most all of the high power processors. The VAX series were only ok in that respect and were better if there were external IOPs. < It's certainly *possible* to add intelligent I/O channels to an x86 mach The hottest machine I've played with was a hacked xerox XP12 laser printer controller. It was a 8mhz 8086 and a 8089(IOP). It could beat any 8086 system cold (using s100 and multibus systems as standard). Later I would see a 8086 multibus system with two 8089s running CPM-86 and it was far faster than the then new AT. The speed of the IO systems and it's peripherals is everything. I know this from building a multiprocessing/multitasking system in the early 1980s using four z80s in a loosely coupled SMP. The array of z80s, 8085s and 8749s around them to do IO was where the real performance could be found. Allison

27 years, 6 months

1
0
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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< But you can't build a *system* with that overall density. Long standing problem but, the military did have machine approacing that density. Consider that once you got over a certain size it was less imporant to be small. < used in the 7000-series computers to SLT (hybrid integrated circuits on < ceramic substrates, first used in System/360 in 1964). Yep. I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some 300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM 2060s. Allison

27 years, 6 months

3
2
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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/thread drift

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What I meant was, if discrete transistors could be used, a small cube of which would equal a Pentium II in transistor number, it would be possible to make a Pentium II box to plug into an XT in 1982. Of course, I hadn't considered at the time I said it that it would be very slow, and speed is the main difference between an earlier machine and a Pentium. >There were boards to put 386s in XT machines. I have one, an Intel >inboard386pc. It replaces the 8088 (the 8088 has to be removed). There >were others made. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

Universal drive

by mark_k＠iname.com

On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 Max Eskin wrote: >Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk, independently of >format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do >this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be >nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file. >The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies... There is a product called Catweasel which is available for the Amiga and PC (ISA card). This is a floppy disk controller which is capable of reading and/or writing many disk formats. According to a magazine article that I have in front of me, the ISA version currently supports (amongst others) Amiga DD & HD, Apple II, Mac 400K & 800K, Commodore 1541 & 1571. I don't know whether reading Mac 400K & 800K disks requires a non-standard type of 3.5" drive or not. PC software support is apparently not too good at the moment, meaning that you will have to write your own code for more exotic disk formats. The supplied MS-DOS programs require a 486 for no good reason. A Linux driver is supplied, but this is object code only, not source. (IMO trying to keep the software that accesses the card private like this is a really silly thing to do.) Anyway, the URL given was http://www.jshoenfeld.com/eindex.html On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >Atari ST uses DOS format in the first place. Amiga can be read on the PC by >Amiga emulators. C64, I have no idea, but I know at least you could use a >C128 to copy files to CP/M format. Amiga disks cannot be read by normal PC disk controllers. You can make a cable to hook up a 1541 disk drive to a PC or Amiga and read files or disk images using this. -- Mark

27 years, 6 months

13
26
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COMPUTER SPACE REGISTRY

by van＠wired.com

Hello everybody... I hope you are all having a lovely weekend. I have decided to compile a comprehensive registry of all the existing Nutting Associates Computer Space machines that are still alive in North America -- and I need your help. I feel that it is important to the legacy of this revolutionary arcade game, and the history of videogames, to establish the wherabouts and condition of the remaining systems. If either you, or someone you know and love, is in possession of a Computer Space (working or not) please contact me with the following information: .............................. model: (one or two player) color: (red, green, blue, gold, or custom) controls: (buttons, joystick, pistol-grip, etc.) serial#: (stamped on back-plate) owner: (name) location: (city and state) condition: (working or not) comments: - contact info: (optional) If you have an image of your game, please send it as an attachment .............................. This list will be published as a reference for all Computer Space collectors and updated annually. Please feel free to forward this message to ANYONE and EVERYONE you feel may have insight as to the location of a Computer Space machine. Any assistance in locating these machines will be greatly appreciated you will no doubt be relentlessly thanked by me for your help. Best regards, van burnham ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === > BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page(a)wired.com van(a)wired.com van(a)futuraworld.com pingpong(a)spy.net vanburnham(a)aol.com

27 years, 6 months

4
3
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IBM AT Piggyback Memory

by Marty＠itgonline.com

I've never seen any other pc that used these 128k (64k dip dram piggy-backed) chips. Regarding the numbers of the chips, they were standard 64k dip drams, the IBM part number is long lost on me. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/19/98 4:22 PM In rummage through the dark recesses of my garage (too densly packed to let in light) I again ran across an IBM AT motherboard that used the piggyback memory chips. Were there any other computers that used these things? Also, does anyone know the numbers of the two chips that were soldered together? ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct19.162239.1767.70774; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:22:39 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id NAA09647; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:38 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id NAA50650 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:26 -0700 Received: from coyote.rain.org (root(a)coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id NAA31 532 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:24 -0700 Received: from rain.org (s14.max2.sb.rain.org [198.68.144.197]) by coyote.rain.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11746 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <362B9EBA.D74807C3(a)rain.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:19:06 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: IBM AT Piggyback Memory References: <199810202000.QAA01233(a)armigeron.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 6 months

2
1
0 0

discrete transistors

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

In fact, it seems there are mainframes faster than even a 486-33. So, I guess Intel outran the mainframe systems only recently. > >If one looks at the Linpack benchmark, the CDC 6600 was almost twice as >fast as a Sun 386i/250 (info lifted from ><http://lithos.gat.com/docview/linpack.bb>). > >> BTW, what did the Cray I use? > >The Cray-1s used simple ECL chips - I think there were only four types in >the whole machine. > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

5
7
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discrete transistors

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >< But you can't build a *system* with that overall density. > >Long standing problem but, the military did have machine approacing that >density. Consider that once you got over a certain size it was less >imporant to be small. > What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? BTW, what did the Cray I use? >Yep. > >I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big >transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some >300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM >2060s. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

3
2
0 0

TOPS-20

by mbg＠world.std.com

>>[Has anyone USED TOPS-20?] > >I'm using it, right now. To send this message. I've used TOPS-20 in the past, and recently got a guest account on a -20 based system. I have to admit I prefer TOPS-10 over TOPS-20 any day, but reasons why could inflame a 'religious' war... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

Belly laugh on eBay

by Marty＠itgonline.com

That wasn't the first p of s IBM delivered. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Belly laugh on eBay Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/19/98 3:40 PM This item description on eBay says it all: 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 BWAHAHAHAHA! Kai ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct19.154052.1767.70755; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:40:52 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA25925; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:34 -0700 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA19986 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:26 -0700 Received: from mail5.microsoft.com (mail5.microsoft.com [131.107.3.121]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA17 074 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:26 -0700 Received: by INET-IMC-05 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <VBTZ1YQJ>; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:22 -0700 Message-Id: <FFD1BA74C6A7D111A09500805F9F88F50720B045@RED-MSG-43> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:21 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Belly laugh on eBay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

TOPS-20

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > [TOPS on a PDP-10 is a *MINUS*?] < < > What? You're kidding, right? What is wrong with PDP-10s?

27 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

TOPS-20

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Every so often, people here mention how they wish they had TOPS-20 < on their modern computers, how much superior it was to UNIX, etc. < COuld someone please explain the specific features (apparent to a < user) that are missing in UNIX? If I understand correctly, TOPS takes It's been 27 years since I ran TOPS10 but the differences can be summed up as a better human interface at the command line level. I've always considered the unix command line userhostile. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/thread drift

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What do you mean it was done with 386s? There were boards to put 386s in XT machines. I have one, an Intel inboard386pc. It replaces the 8088 (the 8088 has to be removed). There were others made. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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RIP Jon Postel

by rax＠warbaby.com

October 17, 1998 I REMEMBER IANA Vint Cerf A long time ago, in a network, far far away, a great adventure took place Out of the chaos of new ideas for communication, the experiments, the tentative designs, and crucible of testing, there emerged a cornucopia of networks. Beginning with the ARPANET, an endless stream of networks evolved, and ultimately were interlinked to become the Internet. Someone had to keep track of all the protocols, the identifiers, networks and addresses and ultimately the names of all the things in the networked universe. And someone had to keep track of all the information that erupted with volcanic force from the intensity of the debates and discussions and endless invention that has continued unabated for 30 years. That someone was Jonathan B. Postel, our Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, friend, engineer, confidant, leader, icon, and now, first of the giants to depart >from our midst. Jon, our beloved IANA, is gone. Even as I write these words I cannot quite grasp this stark fact. We had almost lost him once before in 1991. Surely we knew he was at risk as are we all. But he had been our rock, the foundation on which our every web search and email was built, always there to mediate the random dispute, to remind us when our documentation did not do justice to its subject, to make difficult decisions with apparent ease, and to consult when careful consideration was needed. We will survive our loss and we will remember. He has left a monumental legacy for all Internauts to contemplate. Steadfast service for decades, moving when others seemed paralyzed, always finding the right course in a complex minefield of technical and sometimes political obstacles. Jon and I went to the same high school, Van Nuys High, in the San Fernando Valley north of Los Angeles. But we were in different classes and I really didn?t know him then. Our real meeting came at UCLA when we became a part of a group of graduate students working for Prof. Leonard Kleinrock on the ARPANET project. Steve Crocker was another of the Van Nuys crowd who was part of the team and led the development of the first host-host protocols for the ARPANET. When Steve invented the idea of the Request for Comments series, Jon became the instant editor. When we needed to keep track of all the hosts and protocol identifiers, Jon volunteered to be the Numbers Czar and later the IANA once the Internet was in place. Jon was a founding member of the Internet Architecture Board and served continuously from its founding to the present. He was the FIRST individual member of the Internet Society I know, because he and Steve Wolff raced to see who could fill out the application forms and make payment first and Jon won. He served as a trustee of the Internet Society. He was the custodian of the .US domain, a founder of the Los Nettos Internet service, and, by the way, managed the networking research division of USC Information Sciences Institute. Jon loved the outdoors. I know he used to enjoy backpacking in the high Sierras around Yosemite. Bearded and sandaled, Jon was our resident hippie-patriarch at UCLA. He was a private person but fully capable of engaging photon torpedoes and going to battle stations in a good engineering argument. And he could be stubborn beyond all expectation. He could have outwaited the Sphinx in a staring contest, I think. Jon inspired loyalty and steadfast devotion among his friends and his colleagues. For me, he personified the words ?selfless service.? For nearly 30 years, Jon has served us all, taken little in return, indeed sometimes receiving abuse when he should have received our deepest appreciation. It was particularly gratifying at the last Internet Society meeting in Geneva to see Jon receive the Silver Medal of the International Telecommunications Union. It is an award generally reserved for Heads of State but I can think of no one more deserving of global recognition for his contributions. While it seems almost impossible to avoid feeling an enormous sense of loss, as if a yawning gap in our networked universe had opened up and swallowed our friend, I must tell you that I am comforted as I contemplate what Jon has wrought. He leaves a legacy of edited documents that tell our collective Internet story, including not only the technical but also the poetic and whimsical as well. He completed the incorporation of a successor to his service as IANA and leaves a lasting legacy of service to the community in that role. His memory is rich and vibrant and will not fade >from our collective consciousness. ?What would Jon have done?? we will think, as we wrestle in the days ahead with the problems Jon kept so well tamed for so many years. There will almost surely be many memorials to Jon?s monumental service to the Internet Community. As current chairman of the Internet Society, I pledge to establish an award in Jon?s name to recognize long-standing service to the community, the Jonathan B. Postel Service Award, which is awarded to Jon posthumously as its first recipient. If Jon were here, I am sure he would urge us not to mourn his passing but to celebrate his life and his contributions. He would remind us that there is still much work to be done and that we now have the responsibility and the opportunity to do our part. I doubt that anyone could possibly duplicate his record, but it stands as a measure of one man?s astonishing contribution to a community he knew and loved. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 6 months

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Plessey Periph. Clone

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Re: Tim Shoppa's last message. When I had this machine running, it would attempt to boot from the Floppy (when asked to do so from ODT). The problem at the time (which still exists) was I had no bootable media in said floppy drive, thereby eliciting continued head loads, at about the tempo of a dirge. Clic, read, 'nothing here...' clic, read, 'nothing here...' clic, read.... Had I known Then what I know Now (grateful thanks to Tim and Megan and Allison) I could have made a bootable disk on one of the other machines, and gotten it going. Aaron's problem is classic Catch 22... and I have just now freed up some weekend time to perhaps assist him in that regard. Note to Aaron: the Docs you gave me are In Process, and will be returned to you when complete. Cheers John

27 years, 6 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< So don't underestimate the power of a micoprocessor. We < just bring them unde a yoke, no 'real' processor ever < har to carry. Oh, I don't. I've said Z80s are not as shabby as some of the latterday retrorevisionists would think. I've never seen a i286 running anything (OS) that really used all the raw power in any useful way other than in embedded tasks. That view come from mostly ISA bus PC implementations while interesting are really not best possible performance. At the other end of the line there were some monster transistor based systems that offered stellar performance at a price. Some of the SSI (small scale integration) IC machines of the late 60s bumped up those numbers or shrank/lowered their cost. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>> Maybe you mean MHz? :-). Sorry, ads where sellers claim >> spectacular milliHertz performance are one of my pet peeves. (Along >> with specs calling for compatibility with the ASC-2 character set >> and construction plans calling for DB-9 connectors!) Though it would >> be an interesting exercise to construct a Pentium II-type computer >> based on relays just so that it does top out around 300 milliHertz! > >No thanks... I don't have a dozen spare telephone exchanges for parts ;-) If one were to estimate the number of transistors in a penitum II at 100 million (?), then if an exchange has ~three relays per number, you would get 300,000 relays in an exchange, which means 334 exchanges with a few spare parts left over! >> example, everybody around the world uses the term "metric ton" when >> the perfectly acceptable (and SI-preferred) term "megagram" is >> exactly equivalent (and to my ears sounds better!) And why say The reason is that using scientific notation/unit prefixes requires more calculation if one is not well practiced. While 90 decibels versus 900 decibels shows the relationship clearly (for those that know what a log is), 90 decibels vs. 90 bels is not quite as simple for some. >90 decibels (what's wrong with 9 bels?) >1000 millibars (= 1 bar. I was told by an idiot teacher at school that >the 'bar' as a unit of pressure did not exist. A lot of books claim it >does, though). Has anyone read the book "Innumeracy"? It mostly deals with debunking the concept of probability, but it is interesting in other respects, too. BTW, would you say 'kilobyte' is a misnomer? THe number it signifies isn't 10^3, it's 2^10. For a feeble attempt to get back on topic: was kilobyte always accepted as 1024 bytes? >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Anyone got specs for an Atasi Model 638 HD?

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

It's a large MFM device, makes interesting noises, known good, but one of the little animals (students) thought it would be k00l-rad to nuke the CMOS. Anyone got numbers for this thing? -------

27 years, 6 months

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TOPS-20

by franke＠sbs.de

> [TOPS on a PDP-10 is a *MINUS*?] > What? You're kidding, right? What is wrong with PDP-10s? Correction: PDP is a minus not TOPS :) Maybe I'm just not _the_ big fan of the PDPs. Maybe I'm just to /370ish :) Gruss H. P.S.: Unix also runs on PDPs - for better or worse -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Odd Meas. Units

by jpl15＠netcom.com

How many of us (I don't) pronounce "giga" with a soft initial 'g' as is correct..? [Back to the Future used to drive me crazy until I found that the writers were right...] I have a 2.5 Farad @ 450VDC capacitor bank... takes an hour to charge, but delivers many Joules into a low-impedance load. Sometimes quite spectacularly! If the load is a solenoid, many Tesla are produced as well. I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. If you wish to piss off the counter help at your local parts shop... ask for a 'Light-Emitting Resistor'. Hardware stores and markets have them too. I maintain several movie theaters in connection with my Work.. when asked (by newbies usually) how much power the sound system is in the largest one... and I am in one of those Moods... I will sometimes answer "About 11 RMS Horsepower..." And speaking as an audio geek... if a Pentium-class processor were made out of relay logic... imagine the *sound* it would make! I have many recordings of old telephone switchrooms.. especialy interesting are the large urban Crossbar offices... nothing yet I have heard makes that kind of sound. Finally, I have heard that a 'Millihelen' is the amount of beauty required to launch just *one* ship. Cheers John

27 years, 6 months

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RX50's on a PC?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 17, 18:22, Tony Duell wrote: > Subject: Re: RX50's on a PC? > > > > Has anyone tried wiring an 8" RX52 floppy straight to a modern PC > > controller? I did the best I know how, and I *appear* to have a > > What on earth is an 8" RX52? There are 8" RX01s and RX02s and 5.25" RX50s > that I know about. Never heard of an 8" RX5x drive. I wondered if the reference was to something like the General Robotics double-sided RX02-compatible, but ISTR that's called an RX03. The drive is a standard SA800-compatible, and the controller emulates an RXV12, except that it has a firmware formatting routine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

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Unsubscribe

by baxtertk＠dlu.edu

> ---------- > From: William Donzelli[SMTP:william@ans.net] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 11:05 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: discrete transistors > > > What about 386s? Did Intel outrun the mainframes with the 386, or were > > there discrete transistor machines with better performance than that? > > If one looks at the Linpack benchmark, the CDC 6600 was almost twice as > fast as a Sun 386i/250 (info lifted from > <http://lithos.gat.com/docview/linpack.bb>). > > > BTW, what did the Cray I use? > > The Cray-1s used simple ECL chips - I think there were only four types in > the whole machine. > > William Donzelli > william(a)ans.net >

27 years, 6 months

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Unsubscribe

by baxtertk＠dlu.edu

> ---------- > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III[SMTP:gram@cnct.com] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 11:34 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: TOPS-20 > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > I think what most people lament is that 20 years later, Unix still > doesn't > > have the user friendliness of TOPS-20 nor are we likely to see anything > like > > it any time soon. > > > > -spc (Yea yea yea it could be done, but doing it right (or even > reliably) > > under Unix is a real pain ... ) > > Well, nobody's stopping anybody from doing a TOPS-20 lookalike for > current hardware. Linus Torvalds did his. (And as the old quote > goes, Unix is just as user-friendly as any other operating system, > it just isn't so promiscuous about who it's friendly with). You > could do a TOPS-20 "shell" over Linux or you can do your own kernel. > You decide. Never used TOPS-20 myself, though I'd like to try it > sometime, Eric Raymond speaks highly of it even though nowadays he > mostly hacks Linux and has even convinced my wife into installing > Red Hat onto an otherwise unused Pentium-90 box so she'll learn > skills not included in her nursing education. > -- > Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/> > > When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any > firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright >

27 years, 6 months

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TOPS-20

by franke＠sbs.de

> [Why is TOPS-20 so much better than Unix?] > Umm... It runs on a PDP-10? Thats a Minus..... > Seriously, now, I like the idea of being able to > [DETACH CONTINUE] > [^T] > [^C^C] > [CONTINUE] > Various other nice things too... Tja that's the problem with Unix - minimal service and no inteligence providet :) To support a solution like above, The OS must be aware of the user at all time and special keycodes have to be reserved for the OS. Personaly I also prefere more inteligent OSes - BS2000 for example offers the same functionality. Press the K2 key and the programm is interupted and the OS prompt comes up - get information, even start orther tasks - use any OS command needed (maybe without loading a new programm into your task, since this will destroy the old :). And because the debugger is just a set of OS commands, you're free to poke around ... Sigh. Brave old world :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Finds still available in MD

by mtapley＠swri.edu

All, I spotted the following at the Village Thrift Store in Laurel, Maryland (on the north side of 198 about a mile west of the Baltimore-Washington parkway). I was travelling and couldn't pick them up, but one of you may want to take advantage of them. TI-99/4a. In box. The box was bent and crushed a bit but all there. The unit looked to be in good shape. There was packing materials, manuals, power supply, rf modulator, speech synth module. It was the silver version. I didn't test it, but nobody would take that much care with packing everything back up if it weren't working. I think the tag said $12.90. I sort of wish I'd grabbed this. Mac Plus: with KB, no mouse. Security attach point on back. System unit powered up nominally, but I just tested the main unit, not the KB (no boot floppy, no HD). PS/2 looking thing but narrower and with a montor attached. Didn't look at this much. Assorted 386 etc. boxes. Hope that helps someone! - Mark

27 years, 6 months

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PC cassette port info

by rhblake＠bigfoot.com

Someone out there had the technical reference for the original IBM PC model 5150. I need the pinout for the cassette port if possible. TIA Russ Blakeman Harned, KY

27 years, 6 months

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8088 for free (well kinda)!

by ArfonRG＠allSPAMERSmustDIE.Texas.net

Hey, I have a Hyundai Super 16 computer (no keyboard or monitor) that I need to get rid of. It has an 8088 Processor, an MFM? 5.25 floppy, a full height hard disc, a disc controller card (8-bit), an EGA? video adapter and a dirty case. I hate to waste something that someone else might be able to use so, if you want it email me at: arfonrg(a)allSPAMERSmustDIEhorribly.richmond.infi.net (remove the "allSPAMMERS..." stuff). Thanks, Arfon

27 years, 6 months

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discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

>< used in the 7000-series computers to SLT (hybrid integrated circuits on >< ceramic substrates, first used in System/360 in 1964). > Yep. > I disagree that a 286 had more raw cpu performance than some of the big > transistor machines. I still remember the BOCES/LIRICS KA10 running some > 300 users. I've never seen a 286 run more than 4. Same applies to IBM > 2060s. It's a thruput problem - if the main CPU has to handle every byte in and out, you're just doomed. Just about calculating (Additions per second etc.) a 286 can catch up. It's more about the I/O concepts and devices. Add a versitale IOC and blockmode operations and you could run dozends of users on a 286. Even when using a clumbsy unix like byte orientated OS. And wehn using applications, specialy designed to be aware and operate in blockmode even a hunded might be possible. Ten years ago I designed a small 286 system to act as a terminal/dial up server running a stand alone aplication and accesing a database/transactionsystem running under SIEMENS BS2000 (an /390 compatible system) - in a testrun we had up to 64 users with an accestime below 1s per full screen, with up to 12 concourent requests, even including the mainframe transaction (needed in about 70% of all requests). And still only a CPU usage of less than 20% on a 6 MHz 80286! To be honest, this system had a little helper - all serial I/O has been handled by an I/O subsystem with one Z80 for each two ports - only if a reciving transmission was completed the 286 had to act - and for sending only the data had to be transmited to the Z80 memory window via DMA. The host connection was based on a 230 kbit serial line also operating in a kind of blockmode, using a HDLC like multiplex protocoll. The neat thing was that the OS was just linear and message driven - no real time and no preemptive multitasking. Everything was just so fast that a cooperative sheme did work out quite well. So don't underestimate the power of a micoprocessor. We just bring them unde a yoke, no 'real' processor ever har to carry. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Hmm... If I'd seen that out of context, I'd have assumed it was 1000 < millifarads, not microfarads. Over here, we'd write that as "1000=B5F" That was the point. the user of uf instead of MFD was late '60s when I started noticing it. It's still sometimes used. < 1000mF =3D 1Farad :-) But I know what you mean. I used to have some ol < 50mfd 450V caps --and they were big, in those days. I still do. Actually part of the scaling things of capacitor values is related to the way they are used and the math for RF circuits. Also caps are generally two significant digits just like resistors and that is related to the common 20% tolerance applied to them (10% for resistors). I was more used to using number like 10^6 (megahertz) and 10^-12 pF from my RF days. < Err, I think there's an extra "0" in there somewhere, Allison :-) Damm, he lied. Actualy just a dumb typo. ;) Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 18, 21:17, Allison J Parent wrote: > Subject: Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 > < But this doesn't explain why some units are not common even in scientifi > < fields. Like the millifarad, for example. > > This is because that is an odd size 1000mF (10^-6) is rather uncommon Hmm... If I'd seen that out of context, I'd have assumed it was 1000 millifarads, not microfarads. Over here, we'd write that as "1000?F" (if using ISO 8859-1 or Unicode character set) or possibly "1000uF" ("u" being the ASCII character that looks most like "mu") or possibly even "1000mfd" (often found on old circuits). > when standard values and notation came about. Back then a 50mF cap was > a large value! It was the advent of transistor circuits and their lower > voltage power supplies that 1000mF were common. Then again we see caps > now in the full Farad sizes. 1000mF = 1Farad :-) But I know what you mean. I used to have some old 50mfd 450V caps --and they were big, in those days. > Then again from a womans point of view, it may be that 1400mm sounds > bigger than 5 and a half inches. ;) Err, I think there's an extra "0" in there somewhere, Allison :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/thread drift

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< bit small! Nothing on the scale of the Pentium II has ever been < achieved with transistors, never mind relays, and I'm sure they < tried. For example, it would be possible to place transistors at < 1 per cubic inch, and have the cool adequately, but it's clearly Your unaware of many systems of the 60s that were large on performance and transistors. Your one transistor per cubic inch is far to low. I've worked with cordwood modules that were more in the 6 per cubic inch. Even flat boards were fairly dense. What is missed if the PII uses transistors where other logic systems would employ resistors, capacitors and pulse transformers. Also CMOS requires two transistors to do what can often be done with one using alternate forms of logic. What would be hard to attain is the extreme speeds and that is limited by incterconnections. Putting a few or alot of transistors on one die is not a speed matter in itself. The shrinking of the interconnectivity IE: shorter wires is! When machines got to the Cray speeds the length of wires was an issue as electrons propagate at 1ns a foot. To put that in perspective a PII running at 333mhz is clocking at 3ns! Distributing high speed signals around computers is an art, still. < never been attempted, because if it were, there would be boxes < to plug into a PC XT to get Pentium II speeds. The XT bus and IO are slow, even using a PII would be slowed. BEsides it was done using 386s... Allison

27 years, 6 months

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COMPUTER SPACE REGISTRY

by altair8800＠hotmail.com

Van, You may get a good response if you also post your request to the newsgroup <rec.games.video.arcade.collecting>. Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>< I believe that "mmg" is still used as a prefix in medical fields, >< but here it means (as far as I can figure out) "millimicrogram". >< Can someone correct me on this (I'm sure I'm wrong!) > >A friend is a toxicologist and with it isn't PPM it's picograms/liter. > In the environmental testing field PPM, PPB and PPQ for part per quadrillion are standard. Also nanogram, picogram and even femtogram are standard terms for Mass spec. injection amounts. Current Mass spec. detection limits are in the VERY low femtogram quantities. Dan Burrows dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 6 months

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VCF on CNET

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 02:57 PM 10/18/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Yah! The Vintage Computer Festival was immortalized on television. > >It aired on CNET Central on the USA network this morning at 6:00am. You >might be able to catch re-runs of it this week on local stations. Its the >last segment of the show. > <snippage> ...also, (tho I have not seen the segment yet) CNET placed links to the VCF website and my Computer Garage web site on the CNET Central site. (don't know if the sites were specifically mentioned in the segment) But, a LOT of people have been watching, at least if I can guage anything by the number of emails I have received since yesterday mentioning the CNET segment. I suspect that I'm going to be referring a number of these people to the list, since nearly every one of them has been asking about new homes for old gear! (after I cull out the neat ones of course... B^} ) Overall... COOL! -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 6 months

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System/34 and 36

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

On a system/34, stick something through the slot, and pull the cover off. The silver thing inside the slot is one end of a catch, which attaches to the frame. Pushing on the silver thing swings the catch away. > >I made my first major equipment move today. It was a System/34 system >unit (5340), a System/36 system unit (5360), two band printers (3262), and >two tape drives (8809). About 5,000 lb. as near as I can figure. Nothing >fell over or hurt anybody- very encouraging for the next move (although >now I'm out of room!) > >My biggest, burning question is this: How do you get those darn covers on >the side of the S/36 open? All it has is a little 1/4" long slot. >Probing around inside was completely fruitless. I can see a black plastic >piece inside through the slot, but pushing, pulling, lifting, or pushing >down on it doesn't do anything. > >Any help would be much appreciated. > >Richard Schauer >rws(a)ais.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< But this doesn't explain why some units are not common even in scientifi < fields. Like the millifarad, for example. This is because that is an odd size 1000mF (10^-6) is rather uncommon when standard values and notation came about. Back then a 50mF cap was a large value! It was the advent of transistor circuits and their lower voltage power supplies that 1000mF were common. Then again we see caps now in the full Farad sizes. Then again from a womans point of view, it may be that 1400mm sounds bigger than 5 and a half inches. ;) Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190/ relays

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Assuming each relay occupied a cubic inch, one million relays would < occupy a cube 100 inches on each side, or just a bit over 8 feet on each < Not ridiculously large. The problem is not the size of the relay but the wires to interconnect them. For each relay one can assume there would be a minimum 10% volume overhead for interconnecting wires. < Of course, real relays much smaller than a cubic inch are readily availa < and a real computer of that density would have incredible cooling < problems. There are small units in the size of T05 (.325" dia, .265 tall) and the crystal can sizes (1.25x1.00x.375). So small relays are common and their power needs are very small. Also they cycle faster. These relays also have the advantage of being sealed preventing contamination. The later detail is real for larger systems. I have used the crystal can relays for control systems (25 relays!) and they are reliable fast and modest power. the units I used were Allied Signal manufacture and at 26.5v only required 50mA (max) and had 5A DPDT contacts. Each relay would use 1.325W... full scale machine using say 10,000 would use a fair amount of power. There are lower power relays available as well. Using two cross coupled makes a fine flip-flop. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Here in the US, it's rare to see nanoFarads used as a unit - it's < far more common to see a 2.2nF capacitor referred to as a 0.0022uF < or as a 2200pF unit. This is an extension of the days when < "microFarad" was "mF", and the next subdivision was "micro-micro-Farad" < or "mmF". I have a lot of cap on drawing I've specified as nF and I switched to pF (picofarards 10^-12) back in the late 60s. < I believe that "mmg" is still used as a prefix in medical fields, < but here it means (as far as I can figure out) "millimicrogram". < Can someone correct me on this (I'm sure I'm wrong!) A friend is a toxicologist and with it isn't PPM it's picograms/liter. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> If one were to estimate the number of transistors in a penitum II >> at 100 million (?), then if an exchange has ~three relays per number, >More like a little more than a 1 million. With a 100 million transistor >CPU I could rule the world!!! Assuming each relay occupied a cubic inch, one million relays would occupy a cube 100 inches on each side, or just a bit over 8 feet on each side. Not ridiculously large. Of course, real relays much smaller than a cubic inch are readily available, and a real computer of that density would have incredible cooling problems. Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>And the millifarad. If you want to get an odd look, go into an >electronics shop and ask for a 2.2 millifarad capacitor. Nothing wrong >with the unit AFAIK but nobody seems to use it other than me :-) Here in the US, it's rare to see nanoFarads used as a unit - it's far more common to see a 2.2nF capacitor referred to as a 0.0022uF or as a 2200pF unit. This is an extension of the days when "microFarad" was "mF", and the next subdivision was "micro-micro-Farad", or "mmF". I believe that "mmg" is still used as a prefix in medical fields, but here it means (as far as I can figure out) "millimicrogram". Can someone correct me on this (I'm sure I'm wrong!) Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Educational subsidies

by backofene＠hotmail.com

I know being an old Apple zealot I'm supposed to bemoan Win95, but it hasn't been a problem for us. Now 300 machines on our network with the old Cat3 cable and dozens of old switches in the wire closets- that's a problem, but nothing I can blame 95 for. > >On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 05:40:38 PDT "Eileen Backofen" ><backofene(a)hotmail.com> writes: > ><Interesting perspective of computers in the classroom SNIPPED> > >> >>The introduction of Windows 95 also did a lot to change encourage >>education to change platforms. > ><SMIRK> > >Yeah, I imagine it encouraged them to change back to the >'Pencil and Paper' computing platform. > ></SMIRK> > > > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

1
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Educational subsidies

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 05:40:38 PDT "Eileen Backofen" <backofene(a)hotmail.com> writes: <Interesting perspective of computers in the classroom SNIPPED> > >The introduction of Windows 95 also did a lot to change encourage >education to change platforms. <SMIRK> Yeah, I imagine it encouraged them to change back to the 'Pencil and Paper' computing platform. </SMIRK> ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years, 6 months

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VCF on CNET

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Yah! The Vintage Computer Festival was immortalized on television. It aired on CNET Central on the USA network this morning at 6:00am. You might be able to catch re-runs of it this week on local stations. Its the last segment of the show. Here's a list of the people who were included in the 5-minute segment: Roger Sinasohn (talking about the Toshiba T1100) Jacob Rittoro Chuck McManis (talking about his PDP-8) Marvin Johnston Kai Kaltenbach (answering "Altair 8800" to the question "which is your favorite?) Paul Zachary Larry Anderson (showing off his PET 2001) Frank Gottschalk Jim Willing (talking about all sorts of stuff) And me (I'm Da Star! :) It was a very well-done segment, and I'm very pleased with it. Its sort of funny seeing yourself on TV, especially at 6am. Next year, I want prime time baby! If you get ZDTV (ZiffDavis) on cable then watch for a segment on one of their shows as well in the next couple weeks I would imagine. If I get word from them I'll pass it along too. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 6 months

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Educational subsidies

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> What were the > particulars of Apple educational licensing? Um, what was there to license? You bought an Apple ][, you got Integer Basic. You bought an Apple ][+, you got Applesoft. You buy a Disk ][, you DOS 3.2 (and, later when it came out, DOS 3.3 free of charge.) Are you possibly asking about non-operating system hardware? Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Unibus Emulex board - ID, please...

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>The description was cut/paste directly from the "Field Guide". >Maybe you could go through the latest version and point out >other errors? I have to sheepishly admit that I think the TC13/QT13 error in the Field Guide was probably a typo I made myself 5-6 years ago! Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I have one -AB that has a socket for the FPJ11 and one -AB that doesn't >have a socket installed. Are these the same board? I would gusess so (assuming that it really is a -AB revision and some handles haven't been swapped around.) > Is installing a >socket on the board without one difficult (being it's multilayered)? Not so bad if installed pin-at-a-time. >I have a couple of 1MB M7458-AH (MSV11-RA) PMI boards. Although the >Micronotes refer only to MSV11-J boards, I assume that what it has to >say applies to the MSV11-R also? Amazing! Someone actually read the micronotes! About 3/4 of the Q-bus questions asked here are answered in great technical detail by the micronotes, yet it seems like most folks still ask without bothering to consult them... Yes, the MSV11-R's are just as PMI as the -J's. >I also have a 4MB non-PMI board. What sort of performance loss do I >get by using the non-PMI memory? It depends on the I/O vs CPU memory load. It's a visible performance gain, but not incredible - I'd say 10-30% for most things. > My goal is to run 2.11BSD, so more >memory may be better than faster memory. 1 Mbyte is sufficient for 2.11BSD, and 2 Mbytes is more than enough. Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Unibus Emulex board - ID, please...

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>This is Q-Bus magtape controller: >TC13: Emulex Pertec-interface tape drive controller. Switchable TU81 >TMSCP (MU:) or TS-11 (MS:) emulation. Nope, a TC13 is MS:-only. I think you're confusing it with the QT13, which is switchable between TMSCP and TS11. Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 18, 12:14, David C. Jenner wrote: > Subject: Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 > CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: > > > > > A M8190-AB is a 15 MHz (11/73) CPU with "warm floating point", but > > *will* accept the FPJ11 as an option. > > I have one -AB that has a socket for the FPJ11 and one -AB that doesn't > have a socket installed. Are these the same board? Is installing a > socket on the board without one difficult (being it's multilayered)? Normally I'd say that meant the one without the socket wasn't likely to work with the FPJ11 even if you fitted it (they omitted the socket for a reason) but if they have same etch revision, maybe that's not the case. > I have a couple of 1MB M7458-AH (MSV11-RA) PMI boards. Although the > Micronotes refer only to MSV11-J boards, I assume that what it has to > say applies to the MSV11-R also? Yes, put them above the processor and they use PMI; put them below and they run as ordinary QBus memory. > I also have a 4MB non-PMI board. What sort of performance loss do I > get by using the non-PMI memory? My goal is to run 2.11BSD, so more > memory may be better than faster memory. (Of course, I can always try > to find more, faster memory!) There's quite a difference on memory-intensive tasks -- several tens of %. But the good news is that 2.11 wil run fine in 2MB. Whether more is better than faster will depend on how much memory you need, and whether you often use enough to make it do a lot of swapping to disk. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

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Unibus Emulex board - ID, please...

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>TC1310201-FSH is on the big sticker. It's - surprise! - a TC13. Unibus Pertec-formatted tape controller, does TS11/TU80/TS05 emulation. Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Unibus Emulex board - ID, please...

by kyrrin＠jps.net

At 15:04 18-10-98 -0400, you wrote: <snip> >TC1310201-FSH is on the big sticker. I recognize it. That's a TC13 (or TC131?) tape controller. It provides control for Pertec-interface drives. As I recall (someone check me on this!) it emulates TS11, but can also handle 6250BPI density drives. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 6 months

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Unibus Emulex board - ID, please...

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 17, 23:50, William Donzelli wrote: > Subject: Unibus Emulex board - ID, please... > I am sorting out my DEC cards, figuring out which ones will be included on > my upcoming "junk sale" list. I came across a Unibus card made by Emulex, > and I can not figure out its model number! > > It has two 50 pin connectors on the end, along with one red LED and a 4 > place DIP switch. Near the middle of the board are two 10 place DIP > switches. Notable chips include a 2901, six 24 pin ROMs, a 40 pin DIP with > a sticker over it, and lots of glue. It could be any of several things, for example it could be a serial line multiplexer, or a Pertec tape drive controler. What's written on the sticker on the 40-pin chip? The first two letters and two digits of the number that's usually on those chips would tell us what it is. Are there any stickers left on the ROMs? Anything silkscreened on the board, or written in the etch? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I'm in Ottawa, and on my obligatory trip to the computer salvage place, >picked up an M8190 Unibus 11/84 card. How do you know that you've got an 11/84 "capable" 11/84? There were many revisions: A M8190 without any suffixes is a 15 MHz (11/73) CPU with an unusable socket for the FPJ11 floating point processor. A M8190-AB is a 15 MHz (11/73) CPU with "warm floating point", but *will* accept the FPJ11 as an option. A M8190-AC is still a 15 MHz (11/73) CPU, with a FPJ11 factory installed. A M8190-AD is a 18 MHz (11/83 or 11/84) CPU with "warm floating point", taking the FPJ11 as an option. A M8190-AE is a 18 MHz (11/83 or 11/84) CPU with the FPJ11 factory installed. Even the above suffixes don't actually pinpoint the exact revision of the CPU with respect to FPJ11 bugs, but they serve as a starting point. To further complicate matters, within digital the CPU is identified differently based on whether it has PMI memory installed or not. (And, of course, it matters whether the PMI comes before or after the CPU in the backplane!) So, for example, you may find a 18 MHz CPU with non-PMI memory called a 11/73, but with PMI memory it's called a 11/83. An 11/84 is a 18MHz KDJ11-B with PMI memory and a KTJ11-B Unibus adapter tacked on. I'm pretty sure the M8190 ROM's are the same whether it's to be used as a 11/84 or an 11/83, and that the Unibus boot ROM functionality is added in the KTJ11-B, which somehow coordinates these issues with the CPU. (It's explained in the KTJ11-B processor handbook, but I never read through it all without falling asleep.) To a large extent, all this confusion is caused by the desire for folks to say "this machine is a 11/x3" where x is 7 or 8. If you really insist on the official classifications, you have to read three of the Micronotes: uNote 25: FPJ11, KDJ11-A compatibility uNote 30: PMI on KDJ11-B and MSV11-J uNote 39: KDJ11-A and -B differences. The above micronotes - and many more - available from: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardwar… >1. Any other support boards needed, or will this board run standalone, >presuming available RAM? If, indeed, you have the 11/84 capable version, you'll also need the KDJ11-B and the 11/84 backplane, along with PMI memory, to have a real 11/84 CPU. >4. Is anybody else using this card successfully? I've got several in use as "11/73B"'s. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 6 months

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Intel single board computer.

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

At 06:06 AM 10/18/98 EDT, you wrote: >Hi: >The bus is Intel Multibus. Look in Intel documentation for Multibus or >80/10A. >Paxton > > Hi Paxton, Thanks, I will look. -Dave

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>To further complicate matters, within digital the CPU is identified >>differently based on whether it has PMI memory installed or not. >>(And, of course, it matters whether the PMI comes before or after >>the CPU in the backplane!) So, for example, you may find a 18 MHz >>CPU with non-PMI memory called a 11/73, but with PMI memory it's called >>a 11/83. >In fact... you could find the system with PMI memory, but installed >in the wrong place, and it will be identifed - by software - as an >11/73B. If you put the same memory in the right place, it will be >identified as an 11/83. And if you put the FPP in your pocket instead of the CPU board, it won't be identified by the software either :-). Your point is good though - you've got to put PMI memory in the right slot or you don't get the advantages! >>If, indeed, you have the 11/84 capable version, you'll also need the >>KDJ11-B and the 11/84 backplane, along with PMI memory, to have a >>real 11/84 CPU. >But the board with Qbus memory in the qbus of an 11/84 system box >should work... There are lots of never-officially-supported combinations which do work. >I've also taken one of the KDJ11-B 18mhz boards, removed the 18mhz >clock and replaced it with a 20mhz clock... the boot ROM correctly >identifies the clock speed, and the system runs rock solid... Maybe you mean MHz? :-). Sorry, ads where sellers claim spectacular milliHertz performance are one of my pet peeves. (Along with specs calling for compatibility with the ASC-2 character set and construction plans calling for DB-9 connectors!) Though it would be an interesting exercise to construct a Pentium II-type computer based on relays just so that it does top out around 300 milliHertz! One thing I never understood about metric prefixes is how come many of them are misused or, even more mysteriously, not used. For example, everybody around the world uses the term "metric ton" when the perfectly acceptable (and SI-preferred) term "megagram" is exactly equivalent (and to my ears sounds better!) And why say "ten thousand metric tonnes" when "10 gigagrams" is available? Tim "but let's keep the Metric Buttload" Shoppa. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com)

27 years, 6 months

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Intel single board computer.

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

I found my first 8080 computer, an Intel single board 80/10A. I have no documentation. Is there a name for the physical bus at the bottom of the board so I can search for its description? The power connections I can trace OK. There is a 86 pin edge connector at 0.156 inch spacing, and another 60 pin edge connector at 0.1 inch spacing. The jumper pins on the board are numbered only, there are 80. Some I have figured out already. Once I find all the power connections (on the 86 pin connector), assume +/- 5 volts and +/- 12 volts, I will try it and test the serial connection (8251). 8 of the jumper pins look like to set the serial clock frequencies. It looks like there is current loop as well as RS-232. Haven't found any jumpers for this yet. There is a single 2716 eprom, don't know what is in it- a monitor or some control program that may not use the serial port at all. There are 2 8255 parallel ic's going to top connectors. -Dave

27 years, 6 months

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Educational subsidies

by backofene＠hotmail.com

The problems your mention is exactly what we had - over & over again. Perhaps our failure rate was due to the fact that all our Eduquests came through the grocery receipts program, we never actually bought one. And through that program, getting repairs was a hassle and they always needed repair. >there's nothing wrong with eduquests at all. in fact, the model 55 is quite >nice. the only problem is lack of many slots inside and only one bay for a >hard drive as well as if the monitor or power supply fail, that's expensive. i >like how the inner tray slides out with your system board and everything on >it. very handy. > > > >In a message dated 10/18/98 9:43:39 AM US Eastern Standard Time, >maxeskin(a)hotmail.com writes: > >> Thanks. Actually, my school just got rid of a lab full of eduquests >> to another school, and we still have one of them in the basement. >> These seem like OK machines, though never tried to use them. They're >> like PS/2 Model 25s only bigger. They have microphone and headphone >> jacks on the front, along with a floppy drive. They're all 486s with >> 16 MB RAM, IIRC. What was wrong with these? > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Educational subsidies

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

there's nothing wrong with eduquests at all. in fact, the model 55 is quite nice. the only problem is lack of many slots inside and only one bay for a hard drive as well as if the monitor or power supply fail, that's expensive. i like how the inner tray slides out with your system board and everything on it. very handy. In a message dated 10/18/98 9:43:39 AM US Eastern Standard Time, maxeskin(a)hotmail.com writes: > Thanks. Actually, my school just got rid of a lab full of eduquests > to another school, and we still have one of them in the basement. > These seem like OK machines, though never tried to use them. They're > like PS/2 Model 25s only bigger. They have microphone and headphone > jacks on the front, along with a floppy drive. They're all 486s with > 16 MB RAM, IIRC. What was wrong with these?

27 years, 6 months

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IBM 5120 at the local thrift store

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I know that. The post that I was correcting was the one with the list of numbers and what computer they were for: > > 5168 XT286 > > > > >5100, IBM Portable > > >5110, similar with optional (?) 8" flops > > >5120, bigger screen, built-in 8" flops > > >5140, Convertible > > >5150, PC > > >5155, Portable PC > > >5160, PC/XT > > >5180, PC/AT Notice that the PC/AT is listed as a 5180, not 5170. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Phil Clayton <handyman(a)sprintmail.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: IBM 5120 at the local thrift store > Date: Friday, October 16, 1998 12:44 PM > > > This machine is an IBM 5126 and it is an AT (286) class machine, read my > last post again its an Automobile Analyzer, not a desktop computer.. I > didn;t make the number up, its on a metal ID tag sticker on the side of > this unit, : Says "IBM 5126" I checked it out very closely.. > > Phil.. >

27 years, 6 months

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System/34 and 36

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>On a system/34, stick something through the slot, and pull the cover >off. The silver thing inside the slot is one end of a catch, which >attaches to the frame. Pushing on the silver thing swings the catch >away. This, I believe, is the reason I've found several sets of keys in various large-scale (i.e. megagram) hauls I've made :-). Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Educational subsidies

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Thanks. Actually, my school just got rid of a lab full of eduquests to another school, and we still have one of them in the basement. These seem like OK machines, though never tried to use them. They're like PS/2 Model 25s only bigger. They have microphone and headphone jacks on the front, along with a floppy drive. They're all 486s with 16 MB RAM, IIRC. What was wrong with these? > >Never in the 17 years I've been involved in educational computing did >the government ever encourage the use of Apples. As far as I know, the >only way the gov't bore any of the price tag for computers in education >was through grants (platform independent) or at the state level through >negotiating volume pricing (all manufacturers included). Also, in >Virginia in 1988 and 1990, the state had an initiative to get a critical >mass of machines into grade levels 5-8. Some of the state money for >education was distributed in hardware form. There were 2 contracts - >one to Apple and the other to the winner of the DOS machine bid (Tandy). >I think IBM challenged the outcome of the bid process but Tandy >received the contract in the end. Each district then specified which >type of machine they wanted. Apple II GSes or the Tandy 1000TL. In 90 >the Apple offered was the new Mac LC (with no hard drive). The number of >machines you received depended on your school's enrollment. This was a >departure from the usual method of basing state aid on the district's >financial index. > >In the 80s Apple was much more committed to Computers in Education than >any other company. IBM made several abortive attempts, and formed >their Eduquest division to handle the market. The machines were >under-powered and the software was deadly. Apple asked teachers what >they wanted, IBM told us what we should have. Apple also made its >Appleworks software (WP, SS, DB) software available to schools at an >extremely reasonable price. IBMs prices were out of sight. And based >on market share, educational software manufacturers concentrated their >best stuff on the Apple platform. As the percentages changed so did the >mix of available titles. The Mac only label was common in the 80s; now >you rarely see it. > >The IIes were real workhorses in the schools - impossible to kill. The >GS, which was supposed to replace them, really didn't offer too much new >for us other than a 3.5" drive. The Appletalk built-in network was >supposed to be a plus - and it was for printing - but using it for >program sharing was a painfully slow process. I remember telling the >Apple rep that I wasn't sure what the future would be, but it wouldn't >be running at 2 MHz and it wouldn't be black and white (as the Macs were >at that time). I taught BASIC and even Pascal on those old Apples until >88 when we bought Tandys. One lab had Apple cards in them to run the >old software. > >When Apple introduced its color Macs (1990?), they were so much more >expensive than the similarly powered DOS machines that it was no >contest, we joined the Wintel world. Also, we installed our first >Novell network which helped the decision. > >On the West Coast, I think Apple was much more heavily involved in >providing hardware to schools through grants. There were several >showcase "Classrooms of Tomorrow?" And once a district invested in >Apple the tendency was to continue buying the same product. > >The introduction of Windows 95 also did a lot to change encourage >education to change platforms. > > > > > > >>Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't >>afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people >>were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current >>situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were >>common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to >>encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to >>education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the >>particulars of Apple educational licensing? >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

1
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Hi

by dogas＠leading.net

Can anyone offer some insight on a basic four. Its a fridge size mini with two disk packs (2324-200) and two 'external' double 8" floppies (3200A) and I've heard 'business basic' mentioned in the same breath as this beast (which now occupies a corner of my living room.... tea... anyone... - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 6 months

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1
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Educational subsidies

by backofene＠hotmail.com

Never in the 17 years I've been involved in educational computing did the government ever encourage the use of Apples. As far as I know, the only way the gov't bore any of the price tag for computers in education was through grants (platform independent) or at the state level through negotiating volume pricing (all manufacturers included). Also, in Virginia in 1988 and 1990, the state had an initiative to get a critical mass of machines into grade levels 5-8. Some of the state money for education was distributed in hardware form. There were 2 contracts - one to Apple and the other to the winner of the DOS machine bid (Tandy). I think IBM challenged the outcome of the bid process but Tandy received the contract in the end. Each district then specified which type of machine they wanted. Apple II GSes or the Tandy 1000TL. In 90 the Apple offered was the new Mac LC (with no hard drive). The number of machines you received depended on your school's enrollment. This was a departure from the usual method of basing state aid on the district's financial index. In the 80s Apple was much more committed to Computers in Education than any other company. IBM made several abortive attempts, and formed their Eduquest division to handle the market. The machines were under-powered and the software was deadly. Apple asked teachers what they wanted, IBM told us what we should have. Apple also made its Appleworks software (WP, SS, DB) software available to schools at an extremely reasonable price. IBMs prices were out of sight. And based on market share, educational software manufacturers concentrated their best stuff on the Apple platform. As the percentages changed so did the mix of available titles. The Mac only label was common in the 80s; now you rarely see it. The IIes were real workhorses in the schools - impossible to kill. The GS, which was supposed to replace them, really didn't offer too much new for us other than a 3.5" drive. The Appletalk built-in network was supposed to be a plus - and it was for printing - but using it for program sharing was a painfully slow process. I remember telling the Apple rep that I wasn't sure what the future would be, but it wouldn't be running at 2 MHz and it wouldn't be black and white (as the Macs were at that time). I taught BASIC and even Pascal on those old Apples until 88 when we bought Tandys. One lab had Apple cards in them to run the old software. When Apple introduced its color Macs (1990?), they were so much more expensive than the similarly powered DOS machines that it was no contest, we joined the Wintel world. Also, we installed our first Novell network which helped the decision. On the West Coast, I think Apple was much more heavily involved in providing hardware to schools through grants. There were several showcase "Classrooms of Tomorrow?" And once a district invested in Apple the tendency was to continue buying the same product. The introduction of Windows 95 also did a lot to change encourage education to change platforms. >Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't >afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people >were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current >situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were >common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to >encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to >education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the >particulars of Apple educational licensing? > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

Intel single board computer.

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Hi: The bus is Intel Multibus. Look in Intel documentation for Multibus or 80/10A. Paxton

27 years, 6 months

1
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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi All: I'm in Ottawa, and on my obligatory trip to the computer salvage place, picked up an M8190 Unibus 11/84 card. It's a 4-finger LSI board, connectors for console and likely a cabinet kit of some sort. I'd like to try this board, my questions are: 1. Any other support boards needed, or will this board run standalone, presuming available RAM? 2. What kind of backplane is required? I have an 11/45 backplane but this wouldn't do because of the extensive point-to-point wiring for the CPU cards, etc. 3. Any way to run this is the "straight through" section of the Unibus that exists in the high slot numbers of older Unibus' like the 11/45? 4. Is anybody else using this card successfully? Thanks in advance, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

27 years, 6 months

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RX50 / RX33 Questions related to PDP-11's

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>However, no matter what I try I can't get them (RX33's) to work when the ESDI >controller is in place. On that note I'm giving up on this line of attack >at least for the time being. It sounds to me like you've got a backplane DMA continuity grant problem. What cards are in the backplane? What slots are they in? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 6 months

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System/34 and 36

by rws＠ais.net

Hi everybody, I made my first major equipment move today. It was a System/34 system unit (5340), a System/36 system unit (5360), two band printers (3262), and two tape drives (8809). About 5,000 lb. as near as I can figure. Nothing fell over or hurt anybody- very encouraging for the next move (although now I'm out of room!) My biggest, burning question is this: How do you get those darn covers on the side of the S/36 open? All it has is a little 1/4" long slot. Probing around inside was completely fruitless. I can see a black plastic piece inside through the slot, but pushing, pulling, lifting, or pushing down on it doesn't do anything. Any help would be much appreciated. Richard Schauer rws(a)ais.net

27 years, 6 months

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Unibus Emulex board - ID, please...

by william＠ans.net

I am sorting out my DEC cards, figuring out which ones will be included on my upcoming "junk sale" list. I came across a Unibus card made by Emulex, and I can not figure out its model number! It has two 50 pin connectors on the end, along with one red LED and a 4 place DIP switch. Near the middle of the board are two 10 place DIP switches. Notable chips include a 2901, six 24 pin ROMs, a 40 pin DIP with a sticker over it, and lots of glue. What is this thing called? I would like to get a good idea before I stick it into the sale. William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

27 years, 6 months

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Ultrix installation media

by sethm＠loomcom.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981016/73f21477/at…

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I'm in Ottawa, and on my obligatory trip to the computer salvage place, >picked up an M8190 Unibus 11/84 card. > >It's a 4-finger LSI board, connectors for console and likely a cabinet >kit of some sort. Both connectors connect to the same cab kit... though it isn't required. The console terminal baud rate can be set in the switches on the board, and the on-board LEDs will display the state which would be displayed in the cab kit LED display... >I'd like to try this board, my questions are: > >1. Any other support boards needed, or will this board run standalone, >presuming available RAM? Memory... any qbus memory will do if all you want is to get the machine up and running. A 2x5 to DB25 connector for the console terminal. A console terminal. A disk interface. A QBUS system box, or an 11/84 system box (which is qbus in the first part). >2. What kind of backplane is required? I have an 11/45 backplane but this >wouldn't do because of the extensive point-to-point wiring for the CPU >cards, etc. Sorry, the board plugs into a QBUS portion of the 11/84 system box. It will not plug into a unibus. >3. Any way to run this is the "straight through" section of the Unibus >that exists in the high slot numbers of older Unibus' like the 11/45? Nope... >4. Is anybody else using this card successfully? In qbus machines - yes... several of my systems are 11/83s (KDJ11-B at 18mhz, with PMI memory). I've even modified one to be running at 20mhz (mentioned in another message) -- I call it an 11/83plus. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by mbg＠world.std.com

>To further complicate matters, within digital the CPU is identified >differently based on whether it has PMI memory installed or not. >(And, of course, it matters whether the PMI comes before or after >the CPU in the backplane!) So, for example, you may find a 18 MHz >CPU with non-PMI memory called a 11/73, but with PMI memory it's called >a 11/83. In fact... you could find the system with PMI memory, but installed in the wrong place, and it will be identifed - by software - as an 11/73B. If you put the same memory in the right place, it will be identified as an 11/83. >If, indeed, you have the 11/84 capable version, you'll also need the >KDJ11-B and the 11/84 backplane, along with PMI memory, to have a >real 11/84 CPU. But the board with Qbus memory in the qbus of an 11/84 system box should work... I've also taken one of the KDJ11-B 18mhz boards, removed the 18mhz clock and replaced it with a 20mhz clock... the boot ROM correctly identifies the clock speed, and the system runs rock solid... be warned - not all boards will do so, from what I understand... your milage may vary... etc... If you make the change and it doesn't work, don't blame me... (save the old clock). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by mbg＠world.std.com

>> Actually, even though it came out of a Unibus machine, it's a Qbus CPU >> card. > >I assume that you mean it's a Unibus version of the 11/73. I can't >imagine that it would be usable in a Q bus backplane. The pinouts are >quite different! Nope, the KDJ11-B which plugs into an 11/84 can also be plugged into a Qbus box and work... The fact is that the 11/84 actually has two buses, the qbus, on which the processor and memory reside (as well as the q-u bus converter), and the unibus, in which the rest of the options reside. (Yes, Tim is right about the official boards which go in specific boxes and are marketed and sold as specific systems) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by mbg＠world.std.com

>So this is a Q bus card, that can be plugged into a Q bus backplane >without smoke generation?? Sure is... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 17, 15:24, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Subject: Re: Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190 > So this is a Q bus card, that can be plugged into a Q bus backplane > without smoke generation?? It is indeed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

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Sparc Supply Schematics

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Assuming it does you any good -- most of the paths are between the pins of two custom chips! > >> I have a friend who has 6 Sparc SLC's with either dud power supplies or >> monitor sync problems, is the schematics for the power supplies available > >I've found that schematics for modern computer stuff are almost never >available. And it's quicker to figure out how the thing works yourself >(including tracing out any bits of schematics that you need) than to >battle with the so-called technical support line for information ;-). > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Anyone need a duodisk?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Will the DuoDisk work with an Apple //c? -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Aaron Christopher Finney <aaron(a)wfi-inc.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Anyone need a duodisk? > Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 3:14 PM > > I picked up an Apple duodisk this morning for $1, unknown condition. > Anyone want it? > > Aaron >

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I assume that you mean it's a Unibus version of the 11/73. I can't imagine >that it would be usable in a Q bus backplane. The pinouts are quite >different! That's what the special backplane wiring and the KTJ11-B Unibus adapter take care of. Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info: Unibus Ethernet Card, M7792

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi Again All: In the same trip to the scrap place I bought an M7792 DEUNA card. From the DEC Field Guide it's unclear whether this card is usable by itself, or needs a companion card M7793, to bring Ethernet connectivity to a Unibus machine. Anybosy know anything further? I'd like to have Ethernet on my 11/45 once I solve its (probable) power supply problem. Thanks, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

27 years, 6 months

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Educational subsidies

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

More precisely, what were the particulars of Apple's sales to schools? > >> What were the >> particulars of Apple educational licensing? > >Um, what was there to license? You bought an Apple ][, you got Integer >Basic. You bought an Apple ][+, you got Applesoft. You buy a Disk ][, >you DOS 3.2 (and, later when it came out, DOS 3.3 free of charge.) > >Are you possibly asking about non-operating system hardware? > >Tim. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Educational subsidies

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I'm almost embarassed to say: I believe it was a site that compared PCs and Macs. If it was a ruse, it was very sophisticated for a person who writes an 'intelligent comparison' of PCs and Macs. Maybe they were paid off by you-know-who ... >> Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't >> afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people >> were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current >> situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were >> common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to >> encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to >> education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the >> particulars of Apple educational licensing? > >Well, I don't know about that. Every school I came up through had at >least an Apple lab. In fact, all the schools I attended (Los Angeles >Unified) had exclusively Apple ][s, and it wasn't until my senior year of >high school (1989) when I moved to northern California and attended a >totally new school that the school had an IBM lab, but they still had an >Apple lab (which was barely used until I raised a stink about it, and >encouraged the teachers to begin using it more to teach basic computer >skills, which they did). > >Apple very actively marketed to schools, and as far as I know had special >deals in place to encourage wide-spread adoption in schools. If I'm >not mistaken, the schools were Apple's biggest market, and continued to >use Apple ][s well after they fell out of favor in the general >marketplace. > >Where did you get your information from? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>My board says simply "M8190", the etching says "M8190", part number is >"5016017-01-D1-P3", etch also says "KDJ11-B CPU", there are 3x 28-pin ROM >sockets on the left hand side, 1x 40-pin on the top right, all empty. Without any rev letters after the M8190, what you've got is almost certainly the old 15MHz non-FPA-capable KDJ11B. Probably very similar to the CPU in the Micro-11/73 you got from SERF at UBC. (Or, at least I think like the Micro-11/73 I seem to recall you getting from SERF. There was a Micro-11/23 and a KA650 in a BA23 I also seem to recall...) Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Need Info: Unibus Ethernet Card, M7792

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>In the same trip to the scrap place I bought an M7792 DEUNA card. From the >DEC Field Guide it's unclear whether this card is usable by itself, or >needs a companion card M7793, to bring Ethernet connectivity to a Unibus >machine. You also need the M7793, in addition to a DEUNA cab kit. If you get a chance, grab the DELUA instead - it's a single-board Unibus Ethernet adapter. Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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Anyone need a duodisk?

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

I picked up an Apple duodisk this morning for $1, unknown condition. Anyone want it? Aaron

27 years, 6 months

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Morrow Laptop ID

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

I have found a Morrow laptop without any obvious model identification. While it is something of a wreck, I would at least like to know what it is. I've never seen a Morrow in Australia before. It is black, rather cheaply made with lots of wiring mods to the board. The CPU is an 80C86 The board has a 1984 copyright and a sticker "PCT 6065" It is unusual in that it opens with the keyboard flipping forward and the bulk of the machine with the small LCD type screen standing up. It is however quite stable like this. The word "Morrow" is embossed on the case and there is a nameplate with little on it but "Morrow Designs" and an indecipherable serial number. It has 2 X 5.25" floppys only and a battery compartment. This example obviously stopped working a long time ago and someone has disassembled it leaving all the cables disconnected and all the screws missing. Anyone recognise this? Hans Olminkhof

27 years, 6 months

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DECMate stuff

by kyrrin＠jps.net

As if the H89 wasn't enough, I've also got the following available on origanal DEC diskettes. DM/WPS System Diskette, V2.0 DM/WPS Utility Diskette, V2.0 Spelling, (c) Houghton Mifflin, V2.0 CBI - Intro to WPS - Drive 0 CBI - Intro to WPS - Drive 1 And, finally, I have a DECMate III APU board in pretty darn good shape. I'd like to move both the diskettes and the card as a set, though I will consider selling the disk set in one lot and the card in another. As with the H89 -- Make me an offer! Shipping would be cheap for these. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 6 months

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