- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have looked at Z180's, Z380's and etc.... They are SLOW!!!!!! The < only availabe packaging for the Z380 is un-useable to me as a hobbist < (without a lot of headache.) Slow clock but they use fewer clocks and 16bit fetch. The effective speed is higher. Also the chip spped in climbing. The socket is a 25$ item to get from flat pack to wire wrapable. < I hate the way that Zilog has taken the nice and simple control bus sche < of the Z-80 and really made it a pain-in-the-butt on the Z-380!. At first I was of that opinion. Then I started with the z280 (Zbus mode) and z8000 and looked back at the z380 and it looks worse than it is. It's advantage is that it puts out advanced timing info making fast systems possible while using less bus bandwidth. < size set of bus control lines), Z-80 instruction set and match a DEC Alp < performance (at a cheap price of-course), I would worship that company. Why not find and Alpha and write z80 PALcode for it? < (Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address bus). Is this ask < for too much? Why can't we all just get along? You don't know why that isn't done. There are things about the z80 that do not scale well. < My thoughts are this: If I can find some REALLY SIMPLE mirco-controlle < that do just the basic microprocessor functions, I can parallel them to < make them read-in and intrepret Z-80 code. Like I said it's the sub 1nS memory that will stop you. A z80 at a theorhetical clock of 100mhz would require the memory *system* to have a M1 read cycle of less than 10nS. Try and find logic for decode and memory taht can make that happen in the required time. The Z80 bus provides little in the way of advanced timing to overlap operations so you need really fast memory and IO stuff. For example while z80s at faster than 10mhz are easy to get peripherals for greater than 8mhz are scarce and some never got faster than 4-6mhz! < and DEC Alpha) can reach clock speeds of 600 Mcyc and a really simple (o < accumulator, bare instruction set) microcontroller can't exceed those sp It's a study in piplelined operations. Simple machines have less to pipleine so the individual elements have to be faster. You cannot overlap as many operations as there only a few. Even with current superfast logic sub 1nS gates are rather scarce. So you hit the speed limit IE: how fast can you compare two numbers and branch based on the result. < If I got some of these micro-controllers and had two or three of them < reading in instructions ahead of execution (looking for branches) I coul < do half of the job and speed up the through-put. Except that they arent avalable that fast. Your trying to discretely do what a PII does internally. It's in esscence doing several things in parallel assuming some will be thrown away (branch no taken, add not done and so on) that take complex archecture so that you have more irons in the fire and can be more speculative. < For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations acting as look-up ta That works but to get the speeds you talking about where do these sub 3nS rams/roms come from? Can you wire them on a card so that the lead lengths are not a significant part of the timing (remember 1ft=1nS). These become real things when the clock exceeds 100MHz. I know this >from doing a 20mhz z180 design on paper and I was looking at fast cache rams chips to keep the memory inline, but for IO wat states were a must as most periperal chips I could find were limited to 10mhz bus speed range. I know I'm a party pooper but, I'm also one of those wacky engineers that has pushed the z80/z180/z280 to the edge and know what a design must do to work. On the other hand running CPM at 12.5MHz z180 is frighteningly fast but also points out system bottlenecks like disk speed! I've been putting time into overcomming that using disk caches and the like. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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Y2K and immortal executables

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< >Ok, howabout a Brigeport milling machine with the PDP-8E it was purchas < >with in 1975, still running the same code. < < Sure, I can imagine that. But I can't imagine it will stop working < on January 1, 2000, or that the clock couldn't be set back to 1975 < without affecting the milling. Correction, what clock? Most control apps clocks are intervals, time between events, maybe time of day or week for longer periods and its rare that they even consider time of year. Keep in mind that until sometime past 1981ish clocks were not chips that kept time of day/year. Of ten they were a periodic interrupt that was totalized for time and date. So if the clock was broken it was software not hardware. The one example where Y2K has hit a PDP-8 use was a nuke power plant and the PDP-8 doing data logging had to print the right time date on the page. If the time and date were wrong nothing stopped working but the NRC would be upset with the dataing of the logs. FYI: Y2K happens to hit every 7-8 years on PDP-8 OSs as they only use 3bits for relative year. Bits used to be expensive! < If the source code has existed in some form since the late 50s or < early 60s, no programmer since its creation has tinkered with it? < I can imagine a slightly more plausible situation in which the source < was written in 1961, recompiled and tweaked throughout the Sixties, < and somehow the source was lost after recompilation in the Seventies < so only the executable remains, and that it's been running in some This is likely the commonplace event and the machine by the 70s was stable platform say like DG Nova, PDP-11 or other that has a lifespan exceeding 10+ years or still being made. Lost in some cases means it exists and somewhere on a backup that is in a room with 10,000 tapes of other backups that no one has looked at for 7+ years. Heck my vax archive is over 7 years old and is more than 20 TK50s. I don't recycle major backups as I've had tapes fail. So the deeper the archive the less likely the loss and also harder to find a specific item. This is only hobby use. business should do this far more often. < It's not that I'm denying Y2K - it's that I think it's overblown, < especially when it comes to antique computers. Me too. Many system Y2K is a singular event or non event. The only ones I even think about in relation to it are the PCs and maybe the VAXen (I run VMS 5.3 to 5.5). The PDP-11s may not like the date but most of the stuuff I do is not date centric so unless the OS breaks it keeps cranking. The PC makes me worry as DOS/Win and internetorking software may have bombs I don't know nor can fix myself. I've bumped the clock and it seems to behave though. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by franke＠sbs.de

>> field fixings etc. Especialy in the /360.../390 world some >> of these routiens are older than the OSes where they are used >> today. Some are dated back to a thime when source was equal to >> punch cards - at this time only the object code was stored in >> libraries - source was stored as card boxes - and some of these >> little helper work just fine when used in complete new projects, >> 30 years later. > Good grief, you mean to say that these boxes of source code I have on punch > cards are finally going to be worth something :). Yeah - but fast, you have to finde s.o. in need of them :) <g> Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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[off topic] Bomb Threat.

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

This is kinda off topic, but we've just had a bomb threat! No joke! Someone phoned in, asked for my boss, and said they put a bomb in the building! Why would someone bomb an ISP? Other than my boss is an Afican-American... (Native of Nigeria). -------

27 years, 12 months

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[off topic] Bomb Threat.

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Well, I guess we see this trend of making things less redundant and less faithful to theory, more faithful to shaving off 1/4 of a cent universally. We see bomb threats pretty universally too, and not necessarily for political reasons. Are you sure it wasn't just a kid whose computer crashed again? > >> This is kinda off topic, but we've just had a bomb threat! >> No joke! Someone phoned in, asked for my boss, and said they >> put a bomb in the building! Why would someone bomb an ISP? >> Other than my boss is an Afican-American... (Native of Nigeria). >> ------- > >A sad commentary on a form of 'techno-terrorism' that is likely to become >more prevalent as dependency on the 'net' increases. > >The commercialization of the Internet has inadvertantly weakened one of >its major design points that was considered to be so critical when the >first ARPA designs were worked out. That being redundancy and lack of >centralization. > >Before the major commercial 'backbones' were in place, (set the 'wayback' >machine; Sherman) most systems had multiple shared dial-up connections to >numerous other hosts with which they regularly shared information (email, >news, files, etc.) > >If a network connection went down, (if you even had one) or a given host >was offline, traffic was just routed thru another system that indicated >connectivity to the system (or systems) that the traffic was destined for. >(everyone remember the periodic routing 'maps' that went around?) > >So... unless you lost ALL of your phone lines for an extended period, you >pretty much always had (some level of) connectivity. > >Today, on the other hand (generalization warning!) how many major systems >maintain dial-up inter-system capability even as a backup? > >The major infrastructures have tended to centralize around the commercial >'backbones' and carriers which make them succeptable to interruptions of >service when a single connection fails! (Sure... your web servers are fed >by dual 'T3s', but both from a single carrier thru a single POP?!?) > >So much in money and resources is often committed to create/maintain a >major (high bandwidth) link onto the net, (useful) redundancy is >frequently sacrificed. > >One attack on a major carrier POP (ok, definition time: POP = Point >Of Presence) could easily disrupt Internet traffic for a LOT of people and >corporations. > >Take out a couple of the major authoritative DNS servers, and watch the >world (generalization) start crashing down! > >Or sadly, target one ISP that is suspected of being a major provider? > >It happens... more often than you might ever imagine... > >-jim >(I speak for no one but myself... YMMV) >--- >jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< THe Z180 is already down to 3 cycle/instruction, and the z380 is < down to 2 cycle/instr. But since the maximum clock rate of the < 180 is more than 50% higher than the 280, it's the way to go. No news to me. I'm running a modifed SB180 (z180) and also working with z280/12.5Mhz. I've looked at z380. < > of using. I have z80/10mhz parts however and the 2901s would barely d < > that. < < And if you try, most 10 MHz can run at 12 to 14 MHz. I've taken the 10Mhz part to 12.5Mhz. < < > FYI: z80S180s can be had into the 30+ mhz range. < :) Jep and 1 Meg is still plenty of RAM when running CP/M That it is. < But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit < processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the < 380 isnt really an advantage - you just don't realy need this < 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions Larger flat address space. The z380 would make a real good data handler (z382 is a PC bus slave version for comms) or possibly a graphics crunchers. Even in the z80 native mode you can access beyond the 64k basic addressing in a manor that is more convenient than the basic z80 provides. In most cases the extended mode changes the the effect of the arithmetic overflow in 16bit ops so that 0FFFFh+1 is not 0000. but 10000h. There are of course extended operations as addressing modes as well. < can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage < a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data < and greater over all performance. Z380 still has those attributes. It saves the memory management overhead for apps that need to get at spaces larger than 64k. I plan to do a bit of serious work with one if I can get my hands on a few and a socket adaptor. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by franke＠sbs.de

> This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly > believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since > the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. In fact, this is widely true - Ok, the most cases are not about the source of the whole programm or the main programm its more about subroutines that have been used over the years to solve common things like conversation, key transformations field fixings etc. Especialy in the /360.../390 world some of these routiens are older than the OSes where they are used today. Some are dated back to a thime when source was equal to punch cards - at this time only the object code was stored in libraries - source was stored as card boxes - and some of these little helper work just fine when used in complete new projects, 30 years later. > Sure, they might not have the source to the OS, but their own apps? Remember 30 years - have you ever archived all your work for 30 years ? _EVERY_ Programm you did within these 30 years ? > And that there's been no other reason to change or replace the > programs in all these years, and Y2K is the only reason they need to do it? Jep it is - for example lets take a common old application, for example a salery programm for a big company - the programm still uses the same algorythms since 30 years - the same way of I/O and the same basic data - just some modules for tax calculation have been changed over the years. After all I bet some of these programms will even survive the Y2K hype without change :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Fwd: secrets of a microvax II

by Mzthompson＠aol.com

Following is a usenet posting from a guy needing some help with a uVAX II. It sounds like what I would call a basket case, he hauled it home in several baskets in this case. I have emailed him answers to the more basic questions. Since there are a few of you with far more knowledge on this, I thought maybe some of you could help him out. My knowledge of the uVAX II is limited to having gutted out 6 machines being disposed of by former employer. Sorry, that was before I knew of Classiccmp, snif, snif. Mike Please email directly to him. Subject: secrets of a microvax II From: siebert(a)berlin.gmd-net.de Date: Thu, Oct 22, 1998 07:39 EDT Message-id: <70n5h7$koq$1(a)nnrp1.dejanews.com> Hi there, I need help... I got a DEC Microvax II System which is partly disassembled and has the following coponents: ------------------- | | ------------------- | <OO> | < > | 1) looks like a kind of harddisk ------------------- | < ..I>| 2) MICROVAX II | < ..I>| ------------------- | < . >| 3) ? with a TK50 tape unit | < . >| ------------------- | | 4) RA81 harddisk | | | | | | ------------------- | | 5) power supply ------------------- 1) The harddisk (?) is perhaps from FUJITSU and there is place for a second one. It has to be connected to a EMULEX QD 331040100 controler. I saw some pictures of the same units on the web! 2) The muVAX II processor has no harddisks or any drives and has one switch, four buttons and two LEDs on the front panel. It has the following boards: (back view, top) ------------------------------------------ | M 7606 KA630 CPU | ------------------------------|||||||||--- | M 7608 4MB Memory | ------------------------------|||||||||--- | M 7608 4MB Memory | ------------------------------------------ | |M 7504 DEQNA Ethern.|--cable ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ 3) The other housing looks like the muVAX processor but has only two buttons and the built in TK50 tape unit. It has the following boards: (back view, top) ------------------------------------------ | M 9404 connector | |-- cable to muVAX II ------------------------------------------ | M 3104 8 line serial controler |-- cables ------------------------------------------ | M 7546 TK 50 ctrl.| |-- cable to TK 50 ------------------------------------------ | M 7164 QDA processor for KDA 50 |-- cables ----||||||-----------------||||||--------- | M 7165 QDA SDI controller KDA 50 | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ | | ------------------------------------------ 4) RA 81 456 MB SDI HDD 5) power supply digital 874-F On the backside are the following connectors: > 8 serial 25 pin SUBD connectors > 4 connectors for SDI drives > 1 DEQNA Ethernet 15 pin SUBD connector with a fuse > bulkhead with 9 pin SUBD console connector I have no documentation except from the manual for the serial controller... Hmm.. now I have some problems/questions...: - Which was perhaps the use of this system ? - which was probably the OS (Unix version...) ? - Was it a single user system ? - where can I get a "user handbook" for the muVAX (booting, meaning of the front buttons of all components...) ? - Which type are the housings for this muVAX (BA23, BA123...) ? - Why is this muVAX II SO BIG ??? (in comparision to the "under table systems" which don't have TWO boxes for the cards...) - What is the difference between a Microvax II and a Vaxstation II ? I have no Terminal to use as console - what kind of connector is the 9 pin SUBD connector on the backside (bulkehead) ? - What kind of terminals can I connect ? (I have some SS97 Siemens Terminals or a IBM colour Terminal...) - Can I use a PC with a TTY or a VT100 emulation and a serial connector cable ? - Do I have to use always a console to start the system (with a switch on it or something like that) ? Some of the cards are disassembled in the machine - Where in the muVAX processor housing 2) must I plug in the M 9404 card coming from the "controller housing" 3) and which side must be on the top ? - Where in the "controller housing" 3) must I plug in the EMULEX controller (it needs only half of the place) ? I am not firm with RA81 HDD - Where in the RA81 must I plug in the flat connector ? - Is only one of the four flat connectors for ONE RAxx drive ? - what are the two round mini 4 pin din connectors for in the RA81 ? - in which of the four flat connectors on the back of the system do I have to plug in the RA81 ? - Is there any information about the SDI "standard" ? In both the processor and the controller housing are slots for connecting HDDs. - Do I need controllers for connecting drives there? - Is it MFM standard ? - When there are no drives in it, do the buttons on the front panel have any function ? General... - How can I use the Ethernet connector (compatibility, wiring...) ? - What is the power supply for ? (one big INPUT, three OUTPUTS - all 220 V and 4 smaller outs !) - from which of the two harddisks (RA81, FUJITSU) does the system boot from ? - What are the 8 serial connectors for (Terminals...) ? - For which use was the TK 50 tape for (booting, streamer...) ? I also got a DEC VR262 screen together with the whole stuff, but I can't imagine that there is any use with the muVAX. - how can I use the VR262 ? I know this are manymanymany questions, but even few ansers would be a great help, thanks - Rainer

27 years, 12 months

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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Well, comparing myself to _most_ of the keds in my school, I'd say 'odd' is the word. In my school, they have a "freak day", where everyon dresses up in screwy clothes, and purple hair and everything. Even the teachers do it. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Brett <danjo(a)xnet.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors > Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 11:38 PM > > > On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > I think the only reason that I know this is that I collect antique radios. > > maybe I'm just odd... > > Whoa - change that view - You are not odd - just exceptional 8-) > > BC >

27 years, 12 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by franke＠sbs.de

> >So, believe it or not my naive young man, people are dumb enough to lose > >the source code. > What I don't believe are these claims that the heart of the Y2K > problem are thousands of businesses running apps as old as I am, > that haven't had to change, or that can't be changed. How many > serious businesses are still running the same unchanged sourceless > app since 1978, much less 1968 or 1958? Most of them are not completely unchanged, but the changes are only in some parts that have been changed every year once or twice - and large parts haven't changed at all for the last 20 or 30 years. Also don't forget - for some programm parts there might be a source, but the object code has been patched (not uncomon) and the source doesn't reflect the programm. Or source tools (assemblers etc) where used, wich are not availabe today ! Or the source is stored in a library where no LMS needed is available - or they are stored on tapes no longer readable (to bee correct no longer readable means in most cases only they can't be just inserted and read - you know, some of the Y2K heros don't spend more than 20 minutes before they decide 'Source gone'). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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another ebay laugh

by franke＠sbs.de

> mac128k in box for $260? hmmm > I have the same,except my mac has a rare documented upgrade board that > basically turns it into a mac+ complete with scsi. oooh, and i have IW2 in box > also. mine's worth $1000! lol I was in, but the price sored to a laughter ... To many rich jerks out there. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> wrote: < > This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly < > believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since < > the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. < > Sure, they might not have the source to the OS, but their own apps? Actually this is more common that you'd think. Many cases the company didn't write the code, they contracted for it or it's a canned application. In most of those cases they never had the source! Then the people that had the source go out of business and the code is effectively lost. I worked for a company that had to sue to get the source for an app they used for some 5 years so they could fix a bug! The bug was that RSTS-11 upgrade cased the app to crash. They needed the upgrade to keep the hardware and OS service contract alive on an 11/34 that ran the place. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>< I'm still skeptical. I'd love to hear more first-hand reports of >< the oldest code still running as-is. Come on, code from the 50s >< that's never been replaced? Running on what? Under an emulator? > >Ok, howabout a Brigeport milling machine with the PDP-8E it was purchased >with in 1975, still running the same code. How about a major circuit board mfg that has 20+ PDP11/04 and 11/24's that could not even tell me what operating system they were running. I was and still am suppling them with parts to keep the systems running. It took me a while when I went on a service call there to figure it out. DOS11 beleive it or not. With RL01 and RL02's some of the systems only have paper tape. They are using the systems to control routers, drills and test sets. They also wanted to know about possibility of Y2K compliance - no sources, DOS11 had no RL drivers so the must have written their own. Dan

27 years, 12 months

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OT: Modern college educations

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> >More people should insist on proper documentation. On a couple of >occasions I've returned a device to the shop that sold it under the UK >sale of goods act. The reason? It was not fit for the purpose that I >bought it for because important documentation (register maps, connector >pinouts, etc) was not available. Alas I doubt if the company ever >realised or cared.. I sure wish they had those laws here in the US. The only to get documentation is to make it a line item on the purchase order and hold back payment until the PO is complete. Dan

27 years, 12 months

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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> >When I was a lad, we used to use a fine jet of helium and spray that >round any possible leaks. It shows up very clearly on a mass spectromter. >Some of them even had a setting on one of the controls to look for the >appropriate peak (4, I guess). > Virtually all the instruments I am involved with have a GC for sample introduction so there is helium present all the time. Do they ever think of using the tank of argon sitting off to the side? Much less know the mass of argon? (40) Do they ever think of using any of the gallons of methanol present in all the labs? or even know offhand what mass to look for. (31 there is to much 32 from the leak - O2) The heliun/argon works on the source region but on the analyzer region you have to resort to numerous other methods - there is nothing to ionize the gas. Instead you have to use solvents and look for the pressure burst when the liquid volitizes in the vac. I have had to even pressurize the system with heliun and use a gas leak detector to find some. - A bad weld on a diffusion pump is the worst to find. At hi vac. it is extremly hot when it is cold the pump oil seals the leak. What makes it even more fun is I have no diploma other than high school. I have taught numerous classes in mass spec to masters and phd's on operation, maintenance and troubleshooting. It gets really funny when they find out I have had only 1 university course - sociology. Dan

27 years, 12 months

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HP85 - need info

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Ok it should be there now. Under tech info Let me know if it is useable or if I'd be better off with the original scans at 120K a piece. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: fauradon(a)pclink.com <fauradon(a)pclink.com> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 4:59 PM Subject: Re: HP85 - need info > >>Oh and by the way I have the manual sitting on my desk right now >>(actually on top of my scanner). If you're still interested I could scan >>the 7 pages of the glossary and BASIC syntax guidelines and place it on >>my wed site tonight (I wanted to do that for several machines anyway). >>There is also 5 pages of error codes right after that (If I have time >>I'll set it up too) > >That would be great... thanks. > > Megan >

27 years, 12 months

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WTB: NEEDED: Tandy/Bondwell parts!

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Wanted: LCD for a Bondwell B310 laptop. Half of the LCD in mine quit working. it is a non-backlit LCD, but I'd like to know if there is a backlit version available for this computer (this is the CGA, not the VGA version). There's the specs: SHARP LM64032 NEEDED: HD controller for a Tandy 1400HD laptop. ANY help is appreciated, as I need to rescue data from the 1400, and I'd like to get the Bondwell working. As always, ThAnX in advance, -Jason PS>> The Tandy is within the 10-yr limit. the Bondwell has about 6 months to go...

27 years, 12 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am >looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple >micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna put >a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like the >processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I >need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. You're pretty much looking at ECL here, I think. Some of the new gate arrays will clock at 100 MHz, but that's still nowhere need 900 MHz. Tim.

27 years, 12 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Okay, here's another hair-brained project that I am working on..... < < I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am < looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple < micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna p < a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like th < processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I < need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. < < Any ideas???? Wait till April first for this. I don't think you were listening when we were discussing propagation delays. To deal with 300-900Mhz clock your talking 4-6layer etch and some really fast logic. The .33nS memory will be tough to buy. Be prepared to dump a few DecaKilobucks into the attempt after all you'll need a really fast logic analyser and O'scope to see what you missed. If you want a 32 bit z80 get a z380, it runs native z80 code, until you switch modes then compatability works but it has a lot of gotchas. If your doing a z80 stretch, you better think about how to access memory or really alter the z80 fetch timing. Basic Z80 timing for say 20ns memory would limit you to some 40-50Mhz... it would be a 5-10 MIPS machine though. If you superpipline it and get it down to 1-2 clocks per cycle you can double that. In any case there is no way to logically stretch a z80 without running the risk of making it software incompatable at some point. I've seriously looked at it, still have the 2901s I was thinking of using. I have z80/10mhz parts however and the 2901s would barely do that. FYI: z80S180s can be had into the 30+ mhz range. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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net disruptions through terrorist machinations

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

Gang, the tcp-ip protocol was designed to survive a nuclear war. Assuming there is ANY connectivity going around a hypothetically disrupted/destroyed major network hub, the packets should find it. Of course that link won't handle the bandwidth, but in theory the net would still *work*. -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 12 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Another important factor is newer software that uses code from ancient programs. Examples of this are various algorithms (that could be y2K sensitive). Also, I'm pretty sure that there are at least a couple of dozen lines that are exactly the same in MS-DOS 7 and in Q-DOS. Same goes for other operating systems and software. >> that haven't had to change, or that can't be changed. How many >> serious businesses are still running the same unchanged sourceless >> app since 1978, much less 1968 or 1958? > >Amazing, isn't it? I'm sure those same sentiments were expressed back in >1978, 1968 and 1958 by the same incredulous programmers who supposed that >perhaps their programs would still be crunching away in 1998. > >I don't think the software I've written thats been in the field since 1993 >will still be there in 2003, but there's no reason it can't be, and I >would be thrilled (and amazed) to find out that it was. > >I'm sure the guys who wrote Sage Professional Editor back in the late 80s >would be amazed that I still use it for all my code writing (in DOS >windows under Win95) and swear by it (best damn text editor ever >developed...yeah, you heard me!) > >SO anyway, believe it. Code from the 50s and 60s still churns away, >calculating the taxes you owe, the fines you are assessed and the bank >statements you received. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

1
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net disruptions through terrorist machinations

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

That's the idea behind any distributed network. If you drove a pole into your head, you will cause damage, but you would still be able to live, unless you hit one of a number of critical 'network hubs' >Gang, the tcp-ip protocol was designed to survive a nuclear war. Assuming >there is ANY connectivity going around a hypothetically disrupted/destroyed >major network hub, the packets should find it. Of course that link won't >handle the bandwidth, but in theory the net would still *work*. >-- >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

1
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FS: DEC Documentation (RM80 Disk Drives)

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

I've got a spare, nearly complete set, of docs for the DEC RM80 disk drive available. Three books: 1) RM80 Disk Drive User's Guide P/N EK-ORM80-UG-003 2) RM80 Illustrated Parse Breakdown P/N EK-ORM80-IP-001 3) RM80 Disk Drive Service Manual P/N EK-ORM80-SV-001 What I don't have is a copy of the RM80 engineering print set. I'm asking $30/obo for all three of them. I'll pay shipping in the US. For those who don't have one the RM80 is a 120MB MASSBUSS based disk for PDP-10s or PDP-11s. One of these and an 11/45 and you've got the "original" classic UNIX system. (Well classic from the sense that there were a lot of them configured that way) --Chuck McManis (cmcmanis-at-mcmanis.com)

27 years, 12 months

1
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Emulation or the real thing?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 12:48 PM 10/21/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >I'm sure the guys who wrote Sage Professional Editor back in the late 80s >would be amazed that I still use it for all my code writing (in DOS I'm still using Brief now and then, but it's the 1989 build. The oldest DOS tool I found on my system today was from 1984. >So anyway, believe it. Code from the 50s and 60s still churns away, >calculating the taxes you owe, the fines you are assessed and the bank >statements you received. I'm still skeptical. I'd love to hear more first-hand reports of the oldest code still running as-is. Come on, code from the 50s that's never been replaced? Running on what? Under an emulator? - John

27 years, 12 months

1
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Emulation or the real thing?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 12:14 PM 10/21/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >So, believe it or not my naive young man, people are dumb enough to lose >the source code. Who you calling "young man"? :-) I'm 35 and learned BASIC on an ASR-33 when I was twelve, and have been supporting myself on my programmer earnings since the summer I turned 18. I certainly know the source code gets lost. I'm appalled at how much code gets written, and then is lost, which might explain the tubs of floppies and 8mm tapes that I use for decoration in my office. What I don't believe are these claims that the heart of the Y2K problem are thousands of businesses running apps as old as I am, that haven't had to change, or that can't be changed. How many serious businesses are still running the same unchanged sourceless app since 1978, much less 1968 or 1958? - John

27 years, 12 months

2
1
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Emulation or the real thing?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly >believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since >the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. All the time. In many cases, the customer never saw the source code. (Did you get the source code to the microcontroller in your microwave when you bought it?) >Sure, they might not have the source to the OS, but their own apps? I'm intimately familiar with an example where the company selling the OS no longer has all the source code to it. (And, in one specific case, they can't recompile a tool distributed with the OS because they've even lost the binaries of the compiler.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 12 months

1
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another ebay laugh

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36124539 mac128k in box for $260? hmmm I have the same,except my mac has a rare documented upgrade board that basically turns it into a mac+ complete with scsi. oooh, and i have IW2 in box also. mine's worth $1000! lol

27 years, 12 months

1
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whistling mac plus

by Marion.Bates＠Dartmouth.EDU

--- SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com wrote: i fear it's probably that infamous cold solder joint issue. i'm looking at a spare mac power supply board; does anyone know any exact locations of common solder joint failures? finally, if i do touch up some contacts with a soldering iron, MUST the high voltage lead be discharged? i'm hoping i can just remove the protective cardboard cover, reheat the solder joints and not even go near the HT lead or tube at all. --- end of quote --- In my experience, the C-shaped ring of joints corresponding to the flyback transformer go bad pretty often. Also, I've re-soldered them before without discharging the high voltage lead, and everything's been okay afterward, but maybe that's just lucky. If you DO discharge it, do NOT ground to the chassis -- I read once that the logic board components are too delicate to share ground with a jolt like that. Use the screw on a wallplate or something instead. Good luck! -- MB

27 years, 12 months

3
2
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MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>apple ][ users know that there is no type-ahead during disk access. Actually, there is a one character keyboard rollover, and that's there whether or not disk access is going on. Tim.

27 years, 12 months

1
0
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whistling mac plus

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i'm putting together a mac+ for someone and while testing it, i noticed it started clicking inside. then later, the machine started making a high pitched whistling noise, almost kinda like what you hear when you're close to the back of a tv while it's on. the video worked fine however. i presume it's a power supply problem, but can anyone say what component is failing here? smacking the left side of the case would make the whistling quit, although the clicking continued. i fear it's probably that infamous cold solder joint issue. i'm looking at a spare mac power supply board; does anyone know any exact locations of common solder joint failures? finally, if i do touch up some contacts with a soldering iron, MUST the high voltage lead be discharged? i'm hoping i can just remove the protective cardboard cover, reheat the solder joints and not even go near the HT lead or tube at all. david

27 years, 12 months

2
1
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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

maybe? the answer here is obvious! i'm always taken aback by the wealth of knowledge his brain/storage devices hold! In a message dated 10/20/98 2:06:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: > Q. Is Tony Duell really a supercomputer with an incomprehensively large > database of factual knowledge and highly advanced artificial intelligence > algorithms? > A. Maybe

27 years, 12 months

3
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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> I'll summarise the results when the replies dry up. > Well the replies never really got started. I only got five replies, all > said they were interested. I can only conclude that there are not that > many UK collectors on this list. So did you take the non-UK replies out ? Even if the english like to ignore it, Europe is just a short hop away :) I think I know at least 3 or 4 Germans who would like to join and I guess there are a lot more. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> silliness of the phrase "partial vacuum" repeatedly... I'll completely > leave out the concept of "vacuum leak"!) Oh, I've been known to say 'That valve (tube) is white round the top. Somebody has let the vacuum out' Seems like quite a reasonable way of putting it :-) Try explaining how important a tight vacuum system on a mass spectrometer is to some PHD chemists. Not to mention how to find the leaks. It is amazing how little they teach in "leading" colleges today. Definately NO common sense. So often all the problem consists of is the last thing they worked on but did that enter their mind? Dan

27 years, 12 months

2
1
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TRS80-4,i/o

by foxvideo＠wincom.net

>Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:15:22 -0400 >To: ard(a)p850ugl.demon.co.uk >From: "Charles E. Fox" <foxvideo(a)wincom.net> >Subject: TRS80-4,i/o > > > Hi, Tony: > > In the Model 4 reference manual there are four pages that seem to be relevant: > >#26-Model 4 I/O Bus, #27-I/O Bus Timing Diagram, #28 &29- Model 4 Port Bits. > >I can try scanning these and email them to you if you haven't dug up the information elsewhere. > > Charlie Fox Sorry to post this to the list, but when I tried your email address it bounced. Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo

27 years, 12 months

1
0
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MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Does anyone know why MS decided to limit the type-ahead buffer in MS-DOS to 16 characters? Also, why they never increased this over time? Basically on-topic. I really want to know because I've always cursed it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 12 months

4
3
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MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

apple ][ users know that there is no type-ahead during disk access. I have a ][+ with an enhanced keyboard encoder board that gave it 255 character type- ahead at all times. it was cool to keep typing in program code while saving the file. only problem was playing games where you didnt want the game to keep reading repeated keypresses. thankfully, the type-ahead can be disabled by pressing the space bar when powering up. In a message dated 98-10-21 13:15:23 EDT, you write: << Re: > > Does anyone know why MS decided to limit the type-ahead buffer in MS-DOS > > to 16 characters? Also, why they never increased this over time? Lack of foresight? Lack of vision? > Basicly it's BIOS not DOS, And as the machines got faster, > the need for the type ahead decreased. Boy, is *that* wrong! :) I *still* run into the typeahead limits today, on the fastest machines around. 16 characters is probably fine when you're doing ordinary text entry, with no special machine tasks being requested. It *isn't* fine when you do something like: deltree foo <typeahead 17 or more characters while the computer is working> > Just add one of the many vintage type ahead buffer enhancer. > They have been yery popular, once upon a time... I'd still be running the one I used to use ... but it stopped working as of Windows 3.1 :) >>

27 years, 12 months

1
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MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit?

by franke＠sbs.de

> Does anyone know why MS decided to limit the type-ahead buffer in MS-DOS > to 16 characters? Also, why they never increased this over time? Basicly it's BIOS not DOS, And as the machines got faster, the need for the type ahead decreased. So blame IBM, but in fact, when tey designed BIOS they had mainly ASSM Apps in Mind - not this typ of slowish other things. And for an inteligent reprogrammable terminal/workstation 16 Bytes are quite enugh. > Basically on-topic. I really want to know because I've always cursed it. Just add one of the many vintage type ahead buffer enhancer. They have been yery popular, once upon a time... Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

2
1
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GRID question

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I have a GRID laptop that has a hard drive was wiped. (It's good but empty). This machine uses an external disk drive. Does anyone have one they'll sell or loan me so that I can get the OS installed on the hard drive again? The laptop uses a DB-25 connector for the disk drive. Will any other external disk drive that has this connector work on the GRID? Joe

27 years, 12 months

1
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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> But Allison does NOT make those kinds of errors. That's part of what >>> makes it so notable and what makes it so irresistable to chide her when >>> she does make a typo. >> She ? > I think this is almost qualifying as a FAQ entry: > Section X.Y.Z: List Participants > Q. Is Allison Parent a woman? > A. Yes. > Q. Is Tony Duell really a supercomputer with an incomprehensively large > database of factual knowledge and highly advanced artificial intelligence > algorithms? > A. Maybe Hey, I AM SOOOO SORRY. THis wasn't intendet for the list. I didn't know this is a girls name .. geeeeeee. sigh H. Oh, and add: Q: Is ist true, that the multi trillionaire Salam Ismail startet his fortune at the List, eBay and with his enormous VCF intake ? A: Well, sort of. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

2
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Emulation or the real thing?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 05:59 PM 10/20/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D >emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop >open the cover and go INSIDE the machine, home in on specific ICs, >resistors, capacitors, etc. and stick a probe or voltmeter up to the >leads? Basically, it would incorporate a CAD system with a SPICE system. Actually, a flavor of this exists, or will exist soon, in the form of network management software that lets you take a virtual reality tour of the (perhaps tens of thousands) of computers on the network you administer, and zoom in on a particular machine and peek inside to see which cards and storage units are installed. - John

27 years, 12 months

1
0
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How is a microprocessor made?

by franke＠sbs.de

> I've always wanted to ask this question. How is a microprocessor made? > Can someone here on the list answer this question? Take a hand full of sand, compress it, supply voltage and try to boot - if it doesn't work qout, change the sand - try until a result is reached. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

1
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Emulation or the real thing?

by franke＠sbs.de

>> The original machine, no contest!. An emulator can't possibly include the >> wonderful hot-component smells, hardware problems, being able to stick a >> logic probe anywhere you like, the joys of fixing the darn thing, etc. > SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D > emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop > open the cover and go INSIDE the machine, home in on specific ICs, > resistors, capacitors, etc. and stick a probe or voltmeter up to the > leads? [...] Later on, when they invent the Scent > Printer (a device which emits the smells of the computer you are working > on) you'll be able to know when you've shorted something because all of a > sudden a foul, toxic cloud will be emitted. > I don't think this is so much of a fantasy. Its a lot of work, but it > could be done (ok, save for the Scent Printer part). Salam, just forget it - i will never klick on an Open-The-Cover button (or point on wit a clumbsy glove) when I can feel the snap of an Apple ][+ case by my own. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

1
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How is a microprocessor made?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I've always wanted to ask this question. How is a microprocessor made? < Can someone here on the list answer this question? Very carefully. Actually that is not a joke as it is a very precise process. The process is generally the same as making any integrated circuit save for microprocessors are more complex. The basic idea is that a piece of polished pure crystaline silicon has areas photographically marked and either etched away or doped (infused) with other chemicals (like boron, arsenic, others) to alter the local properties of the silicon to form transistors where and as needed. Other steps put metalization like printed circuit board traces to interconnect active areas on the chip. Once complete they are tested seperated and mounted in holders. All of this is done on a scale of size that is in the range of 1/100000th of an inch and smaller. So the "very carefully" comment is valid and speaks to the level of accuracy and cleanliness needed. That is a pretty trivial description but a detailed one could fill volumes quickly. Allison

27 years, 12 months

5
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discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

>>Irrelevant to the discussion for two reasons: >>1) No one has made mainframes out of discrete transistors since the late 60s. >>2) Almost all modern mainframes are based on monolithic microprocessors. > My point was that only recently has it become so that there is nothing > more than an Alpha or an PII. There are many parallel implementations, > but nothing like the difference between an Altair and an S/360. Yes, I > know there are many computers way more powerful than CompUSA desktops, > but the point is that they're just parallel implementations and there > isn't so much of a class distinction. Do you want to tell us that the mainframe world didn't evolve ? Boy, they also have new and quite speedy new processors - for example, the new SIEMENS S150 delivers around 93 RPF on a single CPU and a sustained rate of 760 RPF on a 12 CPU configuration. RPF (Relative Performance Factor) is a SIEMENS unit to classify the relative speed of their processors. The baseunit is a processor from the beginnign of the 80's. Even in the main frame (/390 compatible) world it's hard to compare processors just by speed, since the manufacturers use different architectures below. So every one has his own measurement. IBM uses their MIPS (misleading informations on processor speed) as a guideline - but even these are just a definde rate: they just fixed the 9672-R15 as base with 63 MIPS. A rough conversation between IBM MIPS and SIEMENS RPF is 1.3 to 1.5 - so die S150 deliveres between 140 and 1000 IBM MIPS sustained load at average mix. With the small SR2000 systems which are based on MIPS (now thats the processor manufacturer :) R10000 CPUs there is a guideline for transformation: one R10000 deliveres around 12 RPF or 15 MIPS at user level. (if you know take the MIPS R10000 MIPS rating you'll get also a fairly nice RISC to (IBM)CISC ratio, since the firmware interpreter used in the SR2000 is very performant) Now if you take the SpecInt value of the R10000 and of the Alpha or Pentium chips (sorry, I just not have them ready), one could base a comparisation on these values. If a Pentium deliveres about 10 times the performance of a R10000, they might reach te region of an actual mainframe (not any 60's transistor claim). But in fact these numbers are again way beside the actual usability - Mainframe performance is measured by thruput and things like transactions per second within a defind response time rather than raw CPU. Just take a look at http://www9.s390.ibm.com/lspr/ to get an idea how specific measurment in the mainframe world is don - not just instructions or megabytes per second. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

1
0
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TOPS-20

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Every so often, people here mention how they wish they had TOPS-20 on their modern computers, how much superior it was to UNIX, etc. COuld someone please explain the specific features (apparent to a user) that are missing in UNIX? If I understand correctly, TOPS takes a less minimalist attitude than UNIX, but since I've never even seen it run, I wouldn't know. If it's not too much trouble, could someone give some examples of interaction that demonstrates the difference? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

10
15
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discrete transistors

by John.Dykstra.jdykstra＠nt.com

>The whole reason Cray's are wired up as circles rather than linearly like a >mainframe is to reduce wire lengths (and with them speed of light delays). Although I never looked at the prints for one, all of the Cray 1's that I had a chance to examine were not completely circular--there was always a wedge missing. I expect this was almost essential; all of the wiring between circuit cards was on the inside of the circle, and the customer engineers had to be able to get to that wiring. I suspect that the reason Seymour Cray built the machine in the shape he did was that the circuit cards, plus the machined columns that supported and cooled them, were wider than the card connectors. By arranging the card columns in a semi-circle with the connectors on the inside, he could minimize wiring length. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra(a)nortel.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel (Northern Telecom) fax: +1 612 932-8549

27 years, 12 months

2
1
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discrete transistors

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What amazes me is that no one has ever marketed a mainframe-like machine out of modern processors. Someone mentioned they had made one out of a 286 and some z80s, but why did no single company ever sell any? I would think such machines could be very useful. OTOH, it makes more money to sell 1000 machines than 3 machines and 1000 dumb terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... >The raw CPU performance of thet 386 exceeds that of many (but not all) of the >discrete-transistor mainframes (and even IBM's SLT-based mainframes). > >However, system-level performance is another matter. How many 386 machines >had intelligent I/O channels, *AND* took full advantage of them? > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

4
4
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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< From: William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net> < < Sure, a Dell Pentium machine might be plenty fast by the book, but simpl < put, it could not even come close to sustaining that speed (140 Mflops f < the Cray-1). A superfast CPU will always loose to slow I/O. < < Its all in the architecture... yes, steaming along at 140MFLOPS only to slam into the IO bus that if ISA *may* be able to sustain 16mb/s. PCI may be faster, I'd suspect in the 30+mb/s range (unknown to me). Anyhow being able to gind lots of numbers is limited by memory bandwidth and maybe disk IO bandwidth and PCs are not notably fast in that depatment. Cray and those other machines were possibly a bit slower but they didn't have that I/O bottlenecks. Allison

27 years, 12 months

4
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Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Not to mention power problems! But I have the feeling that's a bit small! Nothing on the scale of the Pentium II has ever been achieved with transistors, never mind relays, and I'm sure they tried. For example, it would be possible to place transistors at 1 per cubic inch, and have the cool adequately, but it's clearly never been attempted, because if it were, there would be boxes to plug into a PC XT to get Pentium II speeds. >Assuming each relay occupied a cubic inch, one million relays would >occupy a cube 100 inches on each side, or just a bit over 8 feet on each side. >Not ridiculously large. > >Of course, real relays much smaller than a cubic inch are readily available, >and a real computer of that density would have incredible cooling >problems. > >Tim. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

4
6
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Emulation or the real thing?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< just dont forget to make the program windont9x compatible. lol. never work. They'd get confused and try to fix winders. ;) Allison

27 years, 12 months

1
0
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HP85 - need info

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Oh and by the way I have the manual sitting on my desk right now (actually on top of my scanner). If you're still interested I could scan the 7 pages of the glossary and BASIC syntax guidelines and place it on my wed site tonight (I wanted to do that for several machines anyway). There is also 5 pages of error codes right after that (If I have time I'll set it up too) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 6:16 AM Subject: Re: HP85 - need info > >Sorry about that... I thought the person had replied to me directly... >that'l teach me to check the headers... > > Megan >

27 years, 12 months

1
0
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HP85 - need info

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hey it's OK maybe others will be interested in the discussion Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 6:16 AM Subject: Re: HP85 - need info > >Sorry about that... I thought the person had replied to me directly... >that'l teach me to check the headers... > > Megan >

27 years, 12 months

1
0
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HP85 - need info

by mbg＠world.std.com

Sorry about that... I thought the person had replied to me directly... that'l teach me to check the headers... Megan

27 years, 12 months

1
0
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HP85 - need info

by mbg＠world.std.com

I picked up a working HP85 this past weekend at the MIT flea... The person I got it from told me that he had 8 or so of them at the beginning of the day, and some of them had IEEE options and manuals, etc... Anyway, I have no manual for it and I was hoping someone might have one they could either make a copy of for me, or provide some information about the machine. Please contact me off-line. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 12 months

2
2
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HP85 - need info

by dogas＠leading.net

Hi Megan, I've got a hp-85 manual *somewhere* that I'll try to find... in the mean time, to get you started: DISP = PRINT (to screen) CRT IS x PRINTER IS x where x = device code: 1 for screen or 2for printer so, you can prints to screen and screen output to printer.... try LDIR 90 and then a PRINT/DISP for some coolness as well.... I'll look for the manual - Mike dogas(a)leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 11:51 PM Subject: HP85 - need info > >I picked up a working HP85 this past weekend at the MIT flea... > >The person I got it from told me that he had 8 or so of them at >the beginning of the day, and some of them had IEEE options and >manuals, etc... > >Anyway, I have no manual for it and I was hoping someone might >have one they could either make a copy of for me, or provide >some information about the machine. Please contact me off-line. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

MS-DOS type-ahead buffer limit?

by dogas＠leading.net

I think the the type ahead buffer is just a ring buffer config'd with a few bios values and easily reprogrammable... more info available if needed... - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Classics I'm Interested In

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Bill; I am on the Board of Directors for the Oregon Country Fair and this is a very busy month. I am on the road a lot and often unable to reply. I just returned home. I got your message and will call you tomorrow. The Cromemcos have all been sold as have the Smoke Signal Broadcasting systems. I still have Tek, Viewpoint 2 Software & the wavemate Jupiter. Looking through an early Byte I ran across a Jupiter 7 running a high res monitor. Since this has no model number and is all wirewrap I suspect this is an early prototype. Paxton

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Odd Meas. Units

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

] The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. ] Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) A friend of mine once made a PostScript ruler scaled in attoparsecs. I just found it and slapped it into my web directory. Here's the URL: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/ruler.ap.ps Of course, this depends on your printer being accurate, but the "B" side is marked off in inches, so you could at least compare with a trusted ruler to see if your printer needs adjustment. Um, PostScript is classic, isn't it? :-) Cheers, Bill.

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

wafers , dice, etc.

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

Intel DOES sell the individual dice as keychains. The most beautiful wafers are the ones that have gone through the gold layer, but I've never seen those for sale. I seem to recall someone getting one as a plaque for service above and beyond the call of duty at one point, but that was the only time. Blanks and old 4 inch wafers used to be for sale at a gem dealer in Los Altos on San Antonio Road. They had some 4 inch wafers, some 4 inch crystals , ends of crystals, and so forth. -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 12 months

3
2
0 0

Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> > silliness of the phrase "partial vacuum" repeatedly... I'll completely > > leave out the concept of "vacuum leak"!) > > Oh, I've been known to say 'That valve (tube) is white round the top. > Somebody has let the vacuum out' > > Seems like quite a reasonable way of putting it :-) > > Try explaining how important a tight vacuum system on a mass spectrometer is > to some PHD chemists. Not to mention how to find the leaks. It is amazing > how little they teach in "leading" colleges today. Definately NO common > sense. So often all the problem consists of is the last thing they worked > on but did that enter their mind? > Dan > > I'm 15 years old, and even I know that a leaky tube [in a radio] reduces the sound quality, the loudness (depending if it's an amp tube or not), reduces the life of the tube, possibly can cause a short in the tube, and can possibly weaken other components. a leaky tube in a TV will occasionally cause a bad (or no) picture. I think the only reason that I know this is that I collect antique radios. maybe I'm just odd... -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318

27 years, 12 months

2
1
0 0

Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> >I think the only reason that I know this is that I collect antique radios. >maybe I'm just odd... >-- > -Jason >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 Let me know if you are in need of any particular old tubes. I still have a lot that are new in the original boxes and some more used ones. I just could not trash them - nostalgia I guess not to mention that they are getting much more difficult to find. For the hobbyists I would only ask that you cover the shipping. Commercial use would be different. Dan Burrows dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Commie stuff for sale

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Here's some stuff being offered up for sale. Please CONTACT THE SELLER, not me. I'm just passing this along... Reply to: al2(a)acpub.duke.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:55:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Anthony Lagnese <al2(a)acpub.duke.edu> > On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Anthony Lagnese wrote: > > > Wow, I was hoping for prices like these for the 64, 1200, and monitor... > > > > $15 for the C64. > > $20 for the Amiga 1200 > > $5 for the printer > > $1 for the 5.25 drive > > $10 for the monitor

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Emulation or the real thing?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

heh, that sounds like a cool idea. then you could have fix-it contests similar to what one car company did. they'd mess something up on several cars and then teams of young mechanics would race to diagnose and fix the problem first. just dont forget to make the program windont9x compatible. lol. In a message dated 10/20/98 8:01:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: > SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D > emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop > open the cover and go INSIDE the machine, home in on specific ICs, > resistors, capacitors, etc. and stick a probe or voltmeter up to the > leads? Basically, it would incorporate a CAD system with a SPICE system. > You could then get really agressive and add a toolbar that has a probe, > voltmeter, soldering iron, solder, and a whole warehouse of parts (74xx > series TTL, resistors, caps, transformers, transistors, etc) so you can > make hardware mods to the system. Later on, when they invent the Scent > Printer (a device which emits the smells of the computer you are working > on) you'll be able to know when you've shorted something because all of a > sudden a foul, toxic cloud will be emitted.

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Emulation or the real thing?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> > I don't think this is so much of a fantasy. Its a lot of work, but it > could be done (ok, save for the Scent Printer part). > well, if you could convince one of those "automatic air freshener" companies that sell the mist things to make a unit that would give off "computer smells", you may be in business. just add a solenoid to the top of each aeresol can topus the button for that particular smell, wire them into a parallel interface, and you'd be in business. Just trying to convince them would be the fun part. Anyway, it's still better when you get to work with the actual equipment, and having the thrill of finding a 'scope in the trash and fixing it, or finding scrap parts, throwing something together, and possibly building the next Cray - complete with 46 K RAM, and a 20 MB HD - all for under $30, and housed in an old washing machine - also pulled from the curb :^) -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Emulation or the real thing?

by dogas＠leading.net

I prefer the original systems... The tactile response from an IBM PC keyboard, the design elegance of an Atari 800, the iterative building of a screen dump on a HP-85.... this list goes on and on... Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 12 months

3
4
0 0

Odd Meas. Units

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Is there some landmark "first commercial use" of the classic T1-3/4 >> individual LED package that's so common today? Were there early >> LED packages that just completely disappeared? >I've used LEDs on what seemed to be a TO18 header (like a 2N2222 >transistor) with an epoxy top. I've also seen an LED (the number MiLED >500 springs to mind) in a clear TO92 package. Neither are common today. Are LED's in TO18 cans with epoxy tops completely gone? I've certainly seen them used in the past couple years in optical emitter/sensor combinations. Tim.

27 years, 12 months

2
1
0 0

Emulation or the real thing?

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

Gareth Knight says: >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? For what purpose? I like to have the older boxes and mess with them >from time to time. I get most of my real work done on new machines. Emulators are a lot easier to store! Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 12 months

4
3
0 0

TOPS-20

by mbg＠world.std.com

> Well, to be technical, there is a program for Unix to do this called >`screen'. It's actually pretty nice in that it gives you 10 virtual >terminals, allowing you to switch between them (Ctrl-A <number>) and >cut-n-paste as well (defaults to using vi keybindings---use Unix enough >and you'll get used to it). You can also detach the session and >reconnect to it later (and the program will continue to run even if it >does TTY I/O). Sorry, this doesn't make it at all... the original poster was talking about the ability to detach a job from a controlling tty, but having it continue running. And at a later time, from an entirely different terminal, allowing the user to reattach that detached job to a new controlling terminal - in fact, you are given the option of attaching to the detached job when you log in, so you don't have to log into a new session, then attach the job. > That's more a function of the shell than anything else. I think there >is a Unix shell that will do that (or could be told to do that). >Granted, if you're in some other program it won't work. actually, it was implemented at a lower level - the terminal input interrupt service. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 12 months

2
1
0 0

Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

> But Allison does NOT make those kinds of errors. That's part of what > makes it so notable and what makes it so irresistable to chide her when > she does make a typo. She ? ? H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

4
3
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ebay: Microcomputers and Memories book

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Ah, but for those of us with a documentation deficiency, no experience, >and a brand-new interest in DEC, this is pure gold. Keep in mind that my >first "real" computer, when I was a kid, was an Atari 800XL (not counting >the Vic20 I played around with when I was 6)... Point taken... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> I think this shows that organising a UK-VCF would be a bad idea at the >> moment. And for me to organise one, losing all the money I'd have to put >> in would be a very bad idea. Just ask Salam about his profits (please don't tell anybody, but a friend of a friend of my uncle told me that Salam will buy out Bill Gates soon and then declare himself ruler of the world) >> Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. > Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even a > pub meet would be out of the question. Jep, just for 3 hours would be a bit short - I'll think you have to change your horrible pub opening hours. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

2
1
0 0

Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Is mhz == MegaHertz or is mhz == milliHertz? < If so, that could be why this machine seems SO slow. MegaHz 10^6, milliHz 10^-3. aka typo. however part of standard usage would dictate MHZ and mhz being the same unless the context was extremely slow events. Now if it were MHy and mHy the assumption would be 10^-3 as a million Henry inductor is very unlikely. Things like this tend to be somewhat self checking. Actually 386sx/16 is pretty speedy of the memory bus is wide. I have a DELL 316sx that runs Minux like gangbusters. Allison

27 years, 12 months

5
4
0 0

discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Coax cables with velocity factors of 0.66 are in wide use. And in < some very specialized areas - especially the world of delay lines - Right. I was thinking antennas... don't ask! < coaxial cables with velocity factors of less than 0.10 are used. < These cables are extremely expensive and somewhat fragile, as their < center conductor is a coil around a ferrite core, < rather than a plain copper wire. Over the years I've made my own delay lines for various projects. Tedious but saves a bundle! Common use was delay for vertical on O'scopes, radar (calibration!) and dram timing. Allison

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

discrete transistors

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

My point was that only recently has it become so that there is nothing more than an Alpha or an PII. There are many parallel implementations, but nothing like the difference between an Altair and an S/360. Yes, I know there are many computers way more powerful than CompUSA desktops, but the point is that they're just parallel implementations and there isn't so much of a class distinction. >Irrelevant to the discussion for two reasons: > >1) No one has made mainframes out of discrete transistors since the >late 60s. > >2) Almost all modern mainframes are based on monolithic microprocessors. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Odd Meas. Units

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> Wait...all matter resists current, and all matter can be forced to > emit light, so any item is a 'Light-emmitting resistor'. One of the early April 1 issues of BYTE (1975? More likely 1976) has the specs for a "noise emitting diode". If I remember the definition: "When connected across high voltage, makes a large noise (once)." When did LED's begin wandering out of the solid state physics labs and into commercial products? I remember individual LED's in the very early 70's, and by the mid-70's they were everywhere in the form of 7-segment displays. Is there some landmark "first commercial use" of the classic T1-3/4 individual LED package that's so common today? Were there early LED packages that just completely disappeared? Tim.

27 years, 12 months

3
2
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Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>MegaHz 10^6, milliHz 10^-3. aka typo. however part of standard usage >would dictate MHZ and mhz being the same unless the context was extremely >slow events. Yeahbut the same people who put "mhz" in ads are the same folks who talk about the "ASC-2" character sets and "DB-9" connectors. Just because they're common errors doesn't mean that I'm going to repeat them. (Reminds me of Bill Kavanagh at Caltech, who pointed out the silliness of the phrase "partial vacuum" repeatedly... I'll completely leave out the concept of "vacuum leak"!) Tim.

27 years, 12 months

4
3
0 0

TOPS-20

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Well, that's just what I was asking about. What do you mean by 'user friendliness'? A built-in debugger is not high on my list of user-friendly features. Also, how is the TOPS base 'stronger' than UNIX? Does it have more calls, or what? >> [Why is TOPS-20 so much better than Unix?] >> >> Umm... It runs on a PDP-10? >> >> Seriously, now, I like the idea of being able to DETACH CONTINUE something, >> log in from elsewhere, re-attach my job, and continue without stopping the >> job (Unless is tries to do TTY I/O, then it has to wait). > > Well, to be technical, there is a program for Unix to do this called >`screen'. It's actually pretty nice in that it gives you 10 virtual >terminals, allowing you to switch between them (Ctrl-A <number>) and >cut-n-paste as well (defaults to using vi keybindings---use Unix enough and >you'll get used to it). You can also detach the session and reconnect to it >later (and the program will continue to run even if it does TTY I/O). > >> And, Unix doesn't >> have ^T. This gets Status. If you think your program has hung or something, >> pressing ^T does a line like this: >> 07:49:28 MM IO wait at .TEXT1+17 Used 0:00:21.8 in 2:34:21, Load 0.80 >> (I just pressed ^T into MM and retyped what it printed) >> This means that MM is waiting on I/O at .TEXT1+17 (which is a label defined >> in the program. If you wrote the program, this is significant.) >> You also get the used CPU and connect times, and the system load. >> Unix doesn't do this, and I wish it did... > > That's more a function of the shell than anything else. I think there is >a Unix shell that will do that (or could be told to do that). Granted, if >you're in some other program it won't work. > >> Also, if you suddenly decide you want to go poke at your program's interior, >> you and ^C^C it and say DDT, and (provided you know how to operate DDT) it >> will snag the program you just stopped and let you play with it. Or, if you >> do this accidentally, you can say CONTINUE and it will go along like >> nothing happened. > > Now that is a nice feature, and it might be possible to munge that into >Unix as well. But that's the main problem with Unix---all these features >are munged onto a pretty weak base and people have gone so long without >these features that Unix weenies tend to dismiss them as breaking the >`simplicity' of Unix (brain death is more like it 8-) > > I think what most people lament is that 20 years later, Unix still doesn't >have the user friendliness of TOPS-20 nor are we likely to see anything like >it any time soon. > > -spc (Yea yea yea it could be done, but doing it right (or even reliably) > under Unix is a real pain ... ) > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

11
13
0 0

UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> So did you take the non-UK replies out ? Even if the english >> like to ignore it, Europe is just a short hop away :) > You were the only non-UK reply and you were one of the five. Oops. Not much of an audience ... Sad - so, lets fix the pub hours. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Mainframes vs PCs (was Re: discrete transistors)

by backofene＠hotmail.com

I don't know what they had at the Cape, but a reliable source once told me that the onboard computer had only 48K of RAM since it was considered too expensive to go to 64K. Eileen > >Back to classic computers, it has been said, perhaps apocryphylly(sp?), >that "My laptop has more computer power than NASA used to put men on the >moon." While it may be true, I've never actually seen a description of the >computer resources available to NASA between 1962 and 1969. Does anyone on >the list have that information? > >--Chuck > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 12 months

2
1
0 0

discrete transistors

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Signal propagation in cables is less than speed of light (c) and can be >as low as 75% in some coax style cables. Coax cables with velocity factors of 0.66 are in wide use. And in some very specialized areas - especially the world of delay lines - coaxial cables with velocity factors of less than 0.10 are used. These cables are extremely expensive and somewhat fragile, as their center conductor is a coil around a ferrite core, rather than a plain copper wire. Tim.

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I expect this was almost essential; all of the wiring between circuit < cards was on the inside of the circle, and the customer engineers had to < able to get to that wiring. True. < I suspect that the reason Seymour Cray built the machine in the shape h < did was that the circuit cards, plus the machined columns that supporte < and cooled them, were wider than the card connectors. By arranging the < card columns in a semi-circle with the connectors on the inside, he coul < minimize wiring length. It was a design requirement that no signal path would exceed 1 meter. It also allowed signals like clock to be distributed in a way that assured all parts were geting the same drumbeat at the same time. If it were a linear layout it would easily be several meters long and the signals from either end would have cables long enough to insure the data was way late. Signal propagation in cables is less than speed of light (c) and can be as low as 75% in some coax style cables. So if you have a 3 meter cable and you putting pulses out at the rate of one every 3nS you can literally have three pulses traveling down the wire like golf balls in a tube! If that pulse is your sychronizing clock you can see that when it gets to the end of that 3meter wire it's late (by two pulses) compared to the logic at the beginning of the wire. This is a handicap for ultrafast systems but it can be useful for storing data too (delay line memories and timing elements)! So this is why big and fast do not go well together. It also was an advantageous layout for cooling and power distribution. It made for an unusual looking machine with a lot going on down under the subfloor! Customer engineers were not that fond of it as it tended to be cold in the middle! This phenomenon is seen and known at the chip level and influences how the logic is organized on the die for super fast logic. Allison

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

ebay: Microcomputers and Memories book

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< For all you DEC people, this sounds like an interesting book. The < description is "Microcomputers and Memories" (1981, DEC, 662 Pages, < Softbound). < < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=35707674 It's a must have for anyone hacking Qbus PDP-11s, peripherals commonly used with PDP-11s and even user designed hardware! I have the 1982 version and it's well used! Allison

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Units of measure (Was: discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

I should include the more regional measure: NewYork Second: That is the infinitesmal time between the light turning green and the cab horn going off behind you. Allison

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

discrete transistors

by John.Dykstra.jdykstra＠nt.com

>Motorola claims to have started shipping ECL integrated circuits in 1962. >Why were people still building computers using discrete transistors for >years after that? Many of the high-end computers used discrete >implementations of non-saturating logic that was very similar to ECL. Most of the early IC production went into defense electronics, especially missile guidance computers. Even after IC's were commercially available, they were quite expensive, even in production quantities. IBM continued to ship new SLT-based designs when their competitors were moving to IC's, and they were the target of some marketing hype as a result. However, IBM had tuned the circuit design, packaging and manufacturing processes for SLT so well that they could get more performance per dollar out of SLT than anyone could get out of IC's. (Source: Pugh, Johnson and Palmer, "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems", MIT Press.) ---- John Dykstra jdykstra(a)nortel.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel (Northern Telecom) fax: +1 612 932-8549

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Emulation or the real thing?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< >As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a < >theoretical question for you all. < >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? Emulators have their place where hardware is scarce or extinct. What you can't do with an emulator is make the disk drive buzz out a tune or hack the DMA logic as a simple blitter. Hardware has aspects, some very tactile, that emulators can't. Also if the emulator doesn't know the proposed hardware it can't. I'd love to see an emulator that could imitate a s100 z80 system! I do use an emulator, MYZ80. However I find that I end up copying the work to my s100 crate, ampro, visual or kaypro in the end. Allison

27 years, 12 months

2
1
0 0

Emulation or the real thing?

by franke＠sbs.de

> As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a > theoretical question for you all. > Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? An emulation can never produce the genuine beep of an Apple ][ at power on, never, no, not now and not when using 128Bit 32 chanal thousend times oversampling :) Just the beep - and now go for all the other fun things. Gruss H. P.S.: Did I mention the ratatatak when retracting the Disk ][ heads ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>>> Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. > well I'd be interested, but the big problem's transport at the moment. > Give me a couple of months and then ask again :) Transport ? Rent a car, open the door, put in the computers, as a friend to push you in and close the door and drive - or do you want to display a 1:1 Univac rebuild ? >>>> Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even >>>> a pub meet would be out of the question. >>> Jep, just for 3 hours would be a bit short - I'll think >>> you have to change your horrible pub opening hours. > well rumour has it that they might be changing. At the moment all you > need to do is find a good pub with a decent landlord who isn't bothered > about closing at the official times. It's not difficult! So, are we about do get a micro-VCF (only SBCs are alowed) in GB within the next few month ? I'm in for shure. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

> My pet peve is the IBM PC when launched was clocked at a rather poor > 4.77mhz when most of the s100, multibus and generally everyone else > that went with 16bits were looking for 8mhz or faster if possible. > It saved a few dollars but not enough. At least DEC had a z80 in > there to also do IO (instead of the IOC). Jep, Even the Z80 was at 6MHz at this time - But to be honest we have to agree that the basic design of the PC was just intended ans a more flexible terminal, and this basic design was enhanced for the PC... >< P.S.: The hate-segmentation-rantig against the x86 also drives >< me mad - the segmentation sceme used is a very good compromise >< between usability and performance. Loosing up to 15 Bytes >< per segment isn't realy a drawback compared to granularities >< of 4 or 8K today ... > To me segmentation was just another bag on the side to get 16bits to > address more. Jep right, and a very andsome way to deliver relocable adressing and simple memory management. > The other half is that MMU granularity makes sense for its time but with > modern OSs eating megabytes for the kernel Even segments don't allow > enough. :)))) Unix and MS ... H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Emulation or the real thing?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>As this forum is based upon Classic Computers I have a >theoretical question for you all. >Which do you prefer, the original system or an emulation? For me, the real machine is more important. An emulation is a poor replacement (especially if it has to run under Microsoft-anything). But with some hardware being in very short quantity, an emulator can fulfill a need. I'm in the process of working on a pdp-10 emulator, but that is not to say that I would turn down real hardware... my only problem right now is lack of space. I definitely could not handle a KA, KI or KL... but a KS? Good possibiliy... the disks are another problem, however. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Tops-20 and ^T

by pechter＠shell.monmouth.com

BSD derived boxes have the ^T status available... see below from my Freebsd 2.2.7 box (AMD 586/133) Script started on Tue Oct 20 08:42:46 1998 #134 i4got:/home/pechter>^T load: 0.22 cmd: ksh 15420 [ttyin] 0.03u 0.06s 0% 472k Script done on Tue Oct 20 08:42:54 1998 Bill (wishing for both Tops-20 and Vax/Vms on my pc) +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 12 months

1
0
0 0

Need Info on DEC 11/84 Board, M8190

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> BTW, would you say 'kilobyte' is a misnomer? THe number it >>>signifies isn't 10^3, it's 2^10. For a feeble attempt to get back on >>>topic: was kilobyte always accepted as 1024 bytes? >> What drives me crazy are the marketroids who round-up twice >> in order to inflate the capacity of hard drives. > What annoys me is the 1.44Mbyte floppy disk. The only way to get that > capacitiy is to define 1Mbyte = 1000*1024 Bytes. Ugh! > The famous 65K memory chips/boards of years gone by grated on me as well > (they were, of course 64K boards with 65536 locations). Just remember the Ataris: 64XL, 130XL, ST260, ST520, ST1040 :)) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Political and off-topic (was Re: discrete transistors)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> terminals...sometimes I wish capitalism was never invented... > Well, since only essentially capitalist countries have ever invented > useful products of any kind and computers are useful... Hmm so where you put in war time Germany ? It was organized more like the later SU but the same time a whole lot of inventions and 'fist' things hapened ? > Of course, the US is more socialist every week since 1933. Geeee - come on - its maybe becoming more and more fuzzy, but socialism is way, way the other direction. Gruss H. (And to come on topic again: did you know that they had some real neat computers in the east before they switched to strict cloning in the 80's ?) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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IBM AT Piggyback Memory

by franke＠sbs.de

>> In rummage through the dark recesses of my garage (too densly packed to let >> in light) I again ran across an IBM AT motherboard that used the piggyback >> memory chips. Were there any other computers that used these things? > The Apple /// 128K memory board used 32 pieces of standard 16K DRAM, and > 16 pieces of 32K (stacked 16K) DRAMs. > Several TI calculators including the TI-58 and TI-59 use stacked DIPs for > RAM. > The HP-41CX calculator uses stacked DIPs for ROM and RAM. The first Atari ST520+ and 260+ used stacked chips. Atari decided short before delivering the first units that they had to double the RAM size (Never woundered why the 260+ had 512K and the 520+ had 1Meg ? 260 -> 260 decimal kBytes and 520 -> 520 decimal kBytes, both numers are rounded in favour for the marketing .) Ther have also been real 260s and 520s with 256K and 512K. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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discrete transistors

by franke＠sbs.de

> < It's certainly *possible* to add intelligent I/O channels to an x86 mach > The hottest machine I've played with was a hacked xerox XP12 laser printer > controller. It was a 8mhz 8086 and a 8089(IOP). It could beat any 8086 > system cold (using s100 and multibus systems as standard). Later I would > see a 8086 multibus system with two 8089s running CPM-86 and it was far > faster than the then new AT. Thats it - I still go mad when people are ranting about the x86 architecture (kind of popular) but they never tried to understand the features, or they never seen the whole family. In fact, Intel designed the 86 as part of an chipset in a very mainframe like way - A general purpose CPU: 8086, a specialized floating point add on: 8087 and a versitale IOC: 8089. A structure as found on most mainframe at this time (Remember, also IBM offered their customers to get specialized add ons to improve floating point performance on the /370). Since IBM used only the CPU and FPU, the actual PC design is exact like a Mainframe without an IOC: Just painfull slow. Gruss H. P.S.: The hate-segmentation-rantig against the x86 also drives me mad - the segmentation sceme used is a very good compromise between usability and performance. Loosing up to 15 Bytes per segment isn't realy a drawback compared to granularities of 4 or 8K today ... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>>> Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea. well I'd be interested, but the big problem's transport at the moment. Give me a couple of months and then ask again :) >> > Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even >>a >> > pub meet would be out of the question. >> >> Jep, just for 3 hours would be a bit short - I'll think >> you have to change your horrible pub opening hours. well rumour has it that they might be changing. At the moment all you need to do is find a good pub with a decent landlord who isn't bothered about closing at the official times. It's not difficult! cheers Jules

27 years, 12 months

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discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< performance on the /370). Since IBM used only the CPU and FPU, < the actual PC design is exact like a Mainframe without an IOC: < Just painfull slow. My pet peve is the IBM PC when launched was clocked at a rather poor 4.77mhz when most of the s100, multibus and generally everyone else that went with 16bits were looking for 8mhz or faster if possible. It saved a few dollars but not enough. At least DEC had a z80 in there to also do IO (instead of the IOC). < P.S.: The hate-segmentation-rantig against the x86 also drives < me mad - the segmentation sceme used is a very good compromise < between usability and performance. Loosing up to 15 Bytes < per segment isn't realy a drawback compared to granularities < of 4 or 8K today ... To me segmentation was just another bag on the side to get 16bits to address more. The other half is that MMU granularity makes sense for its time but with modern OSs eating megabytes for the kernel Even segments don't allow enough. Allison

27 years, 12 months

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Belly laugh on eBay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> This item description on eBay says it all: >> 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 >> BWAHAHAHAHA! >> Kai > Sorry to differ, but from a collectors point of view the 2011 is > unique. I don't know how rare it is but it is certainly rarer than the 5150. Yep, collectors are more different then dogs and cats.... > The item offered is of course useless because the power supply is in the > monitor unit. IBM calls it a 286 work station and it functions fine in that > capacity with a good display. And IBM sold tonns of them - at least over here. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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128k Mac Schematic needed

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

well, i have no schematics, but i do have a spare power supply board if anyone needs it. In a message dated 10/17/98 9:45:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time, nerdware(a)laidbak.com writes: > My 128k Mac went south on me. When I first got it a year ago, it turned on > and > the screen came up and asked for a floppy. Not having a system disk that old, > I > just put it in storage until I came across one. > > Needless to say, next time I turned it on the floppy made funny noises and > kept spitting the disk out and no video. > > Does anyone have a schematic for the little beast so I can get it cooking > again? If I have to, I can use my Mac Plus for my history presentations, but > I > would rather use the original, if possible.

27 years, 12 months

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Educational subsidies

by franke＠sbs.de

>> (Mr. Lamb also had two 64s there, sharing a miserably overworked 1541. :-) > The influence of schools on computers is interesting. Atari managed to crack > the German educational system and as a result the best programs for the Atari > ST have come from Germany. I would like to agree, but the situation was quite a bit different. First of all until the end of the 80s there was almost no official state programm to put computers in every school - some schools did it on their own, with city or parrent founding. Around 88/89 all states had programms, but they soly founded IBM alikes. In the early 80s, computers at school have been Comodore. almost nothing else. PETs, CBM 3000's and 4000's. Later on also C64. Some schools (especialy in Bavaria) switched later on for AMIGAs. Atari never had a big hit (beside from single schools) with their STs in education. BUT the ST hits the private and small bussines market in Germany like a Blitz. Low price, good performance and especialy the superior b&w crt made it possible. Later on the SLM widened the gap once more. Until Atari failed to offer real upgrade machines (the Megas where just new cases) Atari has been the single biggest PC manufacturer in the home/small buz market. And with programms like Calamus they hit the DTP market from below (the beautiful b&w crt was just like an invitation)- Apple could have had learend a lesson, but they prefered to shrink their share. > Programs such as Steinbergs Cubase and > E-logic's Notator started out on Ataris partly because of it's music > capabilities but mainly because of it beimg the machine so many Germans began > with. They were both ported to Wintel and Mac. Another example is Calamus the > desktop publishing program. Jep, but the Musik thing was just insired by the build in MIDI ports. Almost instantly after apearing, independant musicians started to develop Software for the ST - lots of them never had any programming experiance at all - just fascinated by the idea to have a free programmable MIDI controler for less than 2000 Mark. Still today, Atari is a must for music making. Ataris 'power without the price' philosopy meets the market completely right. They just failed to dig further for gold. The AMIGA, later on, never catched the ST in the 'professional' market, only in the home/games area - Here Commodore had the advantage of the C64 and the fact that most students had an Commodore (PET, CBM or C64) as first computer in school. > To this day Germany is still the center for most > Atari ST activity and where the new clones are coming out of. Jau - and I'm eagerly waiting for my Milan-060 :) But don't forget about France where Atari is also still strong - And Holland of course. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 12 months

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Belly laugh on eBay

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

This item description on eBay says it all: 36111353 Collectible IBM PS/1 Type 2011 BWAHAHAHAHA! Kai

27 years, 12 months

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