- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by dhansen＠zebra.net

I'm wondering if anyone wants a DEC Vax 6220 (model number 62AMB-YE). It's approximately 5' x 3' x 3' and is located in the Mobile, Alabama area. Please reply quickly. david

27 years, 6 months

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Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports???

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi All: I have an M8047-AA 2 port SLU/boot rom card. It's a dual-height Q bus card. I am looking for the pinout of the 2 serial ports. They are 10 pin IDC headers, with one pin removed to ensure correct polarity. The headers look like: o o o o o o o X o o The "o"s are pins, the "X" is the missing pin. This is for an 11/23, the card is configured with what appears to be a boot ROM, I'm assuming that one of the serial ports comes up as the console. Thanks in advance, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

27 years, 6 months

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FUBARs and microfortnights

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) >Hey, that's cheating :-) >The story I heard about uFortnights was a bit of an "in joke" within VMS >development. There was obviously a concerted effort to make VMS >documentation as dry as IBM stuff is perceived, so the developers put up >this new unit to see how far up the chain of cleansing it would go before >being "expunged". I hear that there was some surprise and embarrassment >when it escaped to customers. If that's the case, I wonder how "?SYS-F-FUBAR - Failed Unibus Address Register" snuck in, too :-) Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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HP Paintjet

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I'm not sure if the HP Paintjet is >10yo. If not,feel free to ignore. Is it possible to upload fonts to the Paintjet? Or redefine its character set in any way? Does anyone have the escape codes for it? I looked on www.hp.com, but it is Lynx-unfriendly. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Scanning (was: TurboDos)

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Thank you very much for the scanning info, Eric. If I can get my clients out of here reasonably early enough Sunday(tomorrow), I will give things a try along the lines you've suggested... seems I have most of the tools lying around here somewhere. My offer, though, re: the doc that spawned this thread, still holds. If you want this TurboDos info, it is yours for the price of UPS or FedEx from Los Angeles. Thanx again! PS: Thanx Ward G. I had quite forgotten about the F/F/F system of mensuration. And it is no less ridiculous than the one we (in 'Merka) use that is derived from human anatomy and plant biology. Cheers John

27 years, 6 months

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11/70 Front Panel

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. I saw this earlier and I severely disagree. Two systems I knew of in the Mill (PRINCE::) and Westford (GRAF::) locations were both 11/70 with programmers front pannels. The latter system, GRAF:: was one I'd reboot if the sysmangler wasn't around so it's familiar to me. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Week End Finds

by fauradon＠pclink.com

OOPS This was of course not meant to the list Francois

27 years, 6 months

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PDP Doc files posted today

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: I finally got Acrobat Exchange and my scanner to talk to eachother, so I started scanning my PDP docs. I posted to http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ copies of the following: * IAS/RSX-11 Fortran IV Installation Guide approx size 2mb * RK05J Engineering drawings approx size 2.7mb I also have the RK05 service manual scanned and broken into four, 25-page chunks totaling about 7.5mb. Let me know what you think about the file sizes. I'm torn between files for each chapter and a single file so long as it isn't much bigger than 2mb. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========>

27 years, 6 months

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11/70 Front Panel

by pechter＠shell.monmouth.com

> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:33:48 +0100 (BST) > From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Subject: Re: 11/70 front panel > Message-ID: <m0zX7ZY-000IyNC@p850ug1> > Content-Type: text > > > The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. > > I would guess he's refering to the original 11/70 front panel. It looks > just like an 11/45 panel, except that it has 22 address indicators and 22 > switches. > > > What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console > > which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung > > in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. > > > > The front panel hooks to a microprocessor controlled card which interfaced > > The original 11/70 panel connects directly into the CPU logic AFAIK. I don't > think there's a microprocessor in there. I don't believe so... I do think the Remote Diag Console used a microprocessor (Looked kind of like a modified DMC/KMC-11 to allow it to grab Unibus state snapshots and stuff like that from a machine which was completely hung. I only wished they kept working front panel switches and lights with the RDC. > > -tony > You could do a lot of good diagnostic stuff remotely with just the RDC and a console DL11 hooked to a modem... The board was supposed to be DEC proprietary and removed from the machine (like the 11/750 RDC board) when it went off service contact. In the late 80's DEC started getting a bit lax on removing them. If I find the pocket guide for it -- I'll post the commands. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

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Microfortnights

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>And of course there's a VMS sysgen parameter whose unit of measurement is >the micro-fortnight. Any VMS systems types out there remember what the >parameter is, and how long a micro-fortnight is :-) Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) (TIMAXP)$: MCR SYSGEN SYSGEN> SHOW PARAM *TIME* Parameter Name Current Default Min. Max. Unit Dynamic -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ---- ------- TIMEPROMPTWAIT 65535 -1 0 -1 uFortnight SYSGEN> HELP PARAM TIMEPROMPTWAIT TIMEPROMPTWAIT TIMEPROMPTWAIT defines the number of seconds that you want a VAX processor to wait for the time and date to be entered when a system boot occurs, if the processor's time-of-year clock does not contain a valid time. (The time unit of micro-fortnights is approximated as seconds in the implementation.) If the time specified by TIMEPROMPTWAIT elapses, the system continues the boot operation, and the date and time are set to the last recorded time that the system booted. For a VAX-11/730 processor, which does not have a battery backup clock, the system time must be supplied following a power failure. [...] -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 6 months

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TurboDOS

by eric＠brouhaha.com

Does anyone know whether TurboDOS (an improved CP/M clone) is still available? A web search only turned up an entirely different TurboDOS for Atari computers. Cheers, Eric

27 years, 6 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> As for a 64Bit data bus, there is no reason for a 64bit instruction but, > but with 64bits of data, you can do a hell-of-alot with video and signal > synthesis (i.e. sound). If you want to wrangle 64 Bit data you need to have acording operations - Wasn't it your intention to create a 64 Bit uP ? So, without a 64 Bit ALU and instructions to handle 64 Bit this Z80 will still be an 16 Bit uP just with an 64 Bit data bus. And for the Speed thing: it would be way better if the data bus is extended to 128 Bit, to reduce Memory access. With a 64 Bit bus in a 32 Bit CPU the theoretical bus load is just half. Or simpler: the CPU can be twice as fast with the same memory. > >And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in > >case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of > >mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... > >oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man > It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide as > your data bus. Just tell me why ? Because it has been the tame with old 8 Bit uPs ? Come on thats just the stupid 'thats the way it always has been' idea. Address bus shuld be a) as wide as needed and b) if possible not exeeding the Size of the basic data unit. For a) just tell me where you need more than 4 Gig, or better where you need _way_ more than 4 Gig, because just 4 or 10 times this address space is easyer done with paging methods (wait for b)). And for b) you need special logic to perform address calculation, you can't hold one address in one regular register, you need more silicon to implement the adressing logic, adress calculation and (hidden) adressing register - you also need an additional ALU. > If you keep thinking like "you'll need $16,000,000,000.00 > in memory for that address size" you'll do the same stupid thing as: If you don't need it don't spent the silicon. > Micro$oft ("640K is more than enough for anyone"), Be carefull, now you're entering historical teretorry. MS-DOs was designed to use the full 1 Meg address space of the 8086/88. And could could well boot with something like 900 and more K user mem available. The 'Barrier' (640 or what ever) was given to DOS by the BIOS of the respective machine. And the PC-Bios had just to obey the CGA memory. > old programmers ("year 2000 is 20 years away. > This stuff will be obsolete by then"), You are just talking to one of them - and FYI we continue to use systems with two digit years and they are Y2K ready :) > and let us not forget Intel with their screwy memory addressing > schemes on their pre-X386s. Again, please think a bit - the x86 segmentation is a real great atempt to give - give more than 64 K Mem to a 16 Bit uP - allow an easy relocatable memory sceme - give a reliable memory base to a multi user/multi tasking OS I never had a problem with that - in fact I was realy happy about it (its just a kind of 16:16 base/offset addressing - remember /390 machines still have only one adressing base+offset - a proof for my belive, that base/offset is the only adressing mode needet anywhere). All the ranting about x86 are senseless and I often found (after taking out all the me-to-dont-like-it people) that these are the same guys who cant go well with 9 Bit machines or can't work with 7 Bit lines. > Think ahead! It wouldn't cost that much more or requrie much > more effort to add a few bits to the address bus. Just remember b) you NEED more effort, especialy things that don't fit into your standard modell. Just think, why was the Z80 so much better than the 8080 ? The 8080 implemented 16 Bit calculations, as needed for adress manipulation only as a kind of 'add-on', while the Z80 was more like a 16 Bit CPU. And here is also your additional effort visible - to give the flexibility to handle a address you need to implement 128 Bit things and operation - or you end up with a methods like the 64180 MMU or the x86 segmentation Or worse things like the page registers on the 65816 (I love the CPU, but I still think they should have used a x86 like sceme). And if your thinking about MMUs to expand a 64 Bit adress to 128, you just cut the adressrage down to 64 Bit, since external address enhancements are no design detail of a CPU. > Wow, I didn't intend for that to sound as sarcastic... No offence intended > Hans. Not taken - I still hope you will see it :) > As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thought > about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist. Please ? An Alpha board with CPU is only a bit more expensive than a PC board with an equal Pentium. At least thats the street price over here in Munich - we have some PC part shops that are also selling Alpha boards and CPUs right aut of the blister. > Tell me more... what are Verilog, Xilinx or Altera? FPGA/GAL designs (and languages) some of them I think are already below the 3ns range. AFAIK you could aquire the Z80 design already as a FPGA description - add whatever you need and dump it into the FPGA. With 3nS you are able to get a 33 MHz Z80 right out of the box. Just don't forgett, a ready to use Z180 is 25% faster :) If you still want do try, you should realy dig into FPGA stuff (thanks Allison for the idea) here you get a nice sandbox to try your designs. And most of the evaluation kits are like for free. One more thing, when you want to design a 64 Bit CPU you will get something like 200 pins, so just forgett about any kind of DIL. > Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? Faster 180s and of course the 380s. But Zilog has to build things that will sell, so they are more into integrating special I/O devices than more CPU power. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Please disreagrd this message! I'm really sleepy....I missed the fact that a 128-bit processor would access over 4 billion times the amount a 32 bit one would. I forgot all about the 64-bit ones. In this case, I would agree, and go as far as to say that humanity will _never access 300 tredecillion bytes, since to do so would require us to dissassemble several planets. This had been discussed when I wasn't paying attention... >contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >it). There are plenty of tasks that can use up much more than 4GB ram, >most notably databases and various graphics. 1GB is currently the >amount of RAM a high-end server can be expected to have, and in CGI >and engineering applications, even this isn't enough. To sum up, >volume always fills capacity, as the highway engineers that are >tearing up boston haven't learned yet. But, what's the amount of RAM >a 128-bit processor can access? >>I beg to differ, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. >I'm >>willing to bet $1000 that there will be no practical applications >requiring >>processors with 128-bit addressing by October 24, 2003. Any takers? >> >>> Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this >list. >> >>We'll see. >> >>This is not the same shortsightedness as the old series of claims: >> >> You'll never need more than 1K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 4K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 16K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 32K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 64K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 128K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 256K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 512K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 640K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 1M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 4M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 16M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 64M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 256M of RAM. >> >>And yes, I've heard every single one of these statements made at one >>time or another. I haven't yet heard anyone claim that I'll never need >>more than 512M of RAM. My current Linux workstation has 384M of RAM, >>of which I routinely use more than 300M for large compiles (and I do >mean >>LARGE compiles, some require over 500M virtual) and for image >processing. >> >>Eric >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< It's a right pain to do complex digital circuitry like this. Great for < RF amplifiers, etc, but not so easy to run data buses across the board. < Although you _can_ make striplines using strips of copperclad stuck down < to the groundplane if you have to. for bussed logic is can work. The trick I used was 2sided clad board with one side sliced to produce 8 narrow strips as a bus with it's own groundplane. It was elevated over the chips with some screws (also passed the ground) and then wires picked off the needed signals. this approach was used to hook a 8049 MCU to a DDS (digital synth) that was used to drive a PLL. The core of a DDS is a (this case) 24bit parallel adder and 24 bit accumulator plus a 24bit constant register. A lot of parallel bussed signals. It was all clocked at 16.777216(2^24)mhz. A ram card would be harder but I've done one (dram!) that was fairly small (1Mx8 using 256kx1 dips) and one off. busing is a pain only in that it's a lot of repetitive wiring. But being visible it was easy to see signal progression. The results worked well and lacked the ringing that sometimes plagues boards of two sided design. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Why do some of us collect old computers ?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Why do some of us want to collect these old computers. ?? As an engineer I like to study old computers as there were often some good ideas or neat tricks encapsulated in them. To have machines off the track I followed (intel/z80 or DEC). This leads me to to aquire Kim-1s, Trackstar128s and the like. To have and use machines I didn't own but worked with. Like PDP-8s, Vaxen SDK85s, sdk88s and others. To extend, modify or otherwise use the systems I did aquire over they years. I may be unique as many of the oldest machines I have are orginal purchases. I have and use machines I could not afford in their time. Systems like the Compupro, Visual 1050, PS2/50z are examples of this. All of my systems are operational, many are used daily or weekly. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Ah! I misunderstood. That's a cool idea. There is an open source >> version of Civilization floating around. Perhaps that could be >> adapted, not that we couldn't steal a start from somewhere else... >> My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we >> have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper >> wire. >> How much copper do you want smelt this year? Wow - thats it - I 've been already eaten up by megagraphics. So, anything I could Imagine was to reduce graphics to ASCII ... but Yo thats it Hamurabi ! > I don't know about that -- it would make the game rather difficult. > Rats have eaten 320 transistors. > Do you want to buy or sell stock? > Or maybe that should be: > Surplus shops have taken 215 transistors. > Do you want to buy or sell source code? Pfffft. Go ahead. thats great! Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Week End Finds

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi Mike, Did you receive your PC-1500 yet? Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ -----Original Message----- From: Mike <dogas(a)leading.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Week End Finds >>Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web >>search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find >>programming info if that is possible. >>Thanks >>Francois > > >Hi Francois, > >I just ordered one of these machines ( inbound mail ) send me some mail to >dogas(a)leading.net I should have it by week end... >- Mike >

27 years, 6 months

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Educational subsidies

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the particulars of Apple educational licensing? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Odd Meas. Units

by mbg＠world.std.com

>> I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. > >The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. >Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) IIRC, the GT40 lunar lander program had comments about measuring things in furlongs per fortnight. I'll have to check the source... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 6 months

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Fairchild Channel F

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi, I finally got around to going to the thrift store and picked up that Channel F. It cost me $10 and has Carts number 12 Baseball and 16 Dodge it. Whoever wanted it please respond to fauradon(a)pclink.com Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/

27 years, 6 months

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Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports???

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I am looking for the pinout of the 2 serial ports. They are 10 pin IDC >headers, with one pin removed to ensure correct polarity. >The headers look like: > > o o o o o > o o X o o

27 years, 6 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I guess I don't have $1000 to bet, but I wouldn't be quite that sure. No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access it). There are plenty of tasks that can use up much more than 4GB ram, most notably databases and various graphics. 1GB is currently the amount of RAM a high-end server can be expected to have, and in CGI and engineering applications, even this isn't enough. To sum up, volume always fills capacity, as the highway engineers that are tearing up boston haven't learned yet. But, what's the amount of RAM a 128-bit processor can access? >I beg to differ, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm >willing to bet $1000 that there will be no practical applications requiring >processors with 128-bit addressing by October 24, 2003. Any takers? > >> Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this list. > >We'll see. > >This is not the same shortsightedness as the old series of claims: > > You'll never need more than 1K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 4K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 16K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 32K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 64K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 128K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 256K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 512K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 640K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 1M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 4M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 16M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 64M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 256M of RAM. > >And yes, I've heard every single one of these statements made at one >time or another. I haven't yet heard anyone claim that I'll never need >more than 512M of RAM. My current Linux workstation has 384M of RAM, >of which I routinely use more than 300M for large compiles (and I do mean >LARGE compiles, some require over 500M virtual) and for image processing. > >Eric > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I was just pointing out that it's _possible_ to make high-speed stuff at < home given a lot of care and a bit of knowledge. The myth that it's < impossible to homebrew at above 10MHz is just that - a myth. It's not < easy, but it's possible. Having also done it I know that it's not for the faint of heart. You have to have an idea about fast pulses and RF in real life circuits to know what works and what may not. FYI: My favorite breadboard technique is dead bug. Take a sheet of copper clad and call that ground, mount devices inverted (legs up!) and bend any pins that are gound to ground. Small cap from Vcc to the ground plane and start wiring. Critical lead lengths can be very short. I've used this trick for over 20 years and into the GHz region successfully. Looks ugly but it goes together fast and works better than a PC layout! It's also non fussy in that it applies well to RF as digital circuits. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Items sold

by kyrrin＠jps.net

The H89 system I advertised in here a while back has been sold. A fellow out of Jacksonville, FL was the lucky buyer (and you don't want to know what the shipping cost!) The DECMate III floppies and card have also been claimed. Thanks to all for your interest. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 6 months

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old IBM calculator questions

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What kind of speed gain? > >On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> Here are a couple of questions inspired by my encounter with the >> IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator Mark I. >> For one thing, if this thing could perform all of the basic >> calculations to many decimal places in a short time, why build an >> ENIAC, many times bigger, and less reliable, when this machine >> could have been scaled if necessary? It had been in development, and >> I'm sure the military was working on relay-based machines as well. >> So why the choice of digital with vacuum tubes? > >Speed for one. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Zenith Luggable

by lwalker＠mail.interlog.com

I have a Zenith luggable ZFA-161-52 with the popup fdds. I've dug into Dejanews archives but haven't found too much on it. I know the model # indicates a Z(enith) F( 48 TPI double sided) A( amber screen ) 161 model 5 (slots) 2 (fdds'). There's 2 Zenith newsgroups , one of which seems devoted to newer machines and the other Z-100 which is mainly porn spam. There's also a program archive on Oakland. There also seems to be some confusion as to what is a Z-100 machine which sometimes refers to only the 110 and 120 models and other times to anything with a 100 #. Apparently some of the models ran CP/M and had a S-100 bus and also ran ZDOS ,compatible with MSDOS. Mine has some 1983 and 1984 dates on it and boots from DOS as apparently all would. The built-in monitor system indicates 320k Ram. It has an 8088 CPU on one of the cards but I don't see another processor for CP/M. Any pointers to a source of info or info on this machine would be appreciated. ciao larry lwalker(a)interlog.com

27 years, 6 months

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old IBM calculator questions

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Here are a couple of questions inspired by my encounter with the IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator Mark I. For one thing, if this thing could perform all of the basic calculations to many decimal places in a short time, why build an ENIAC, many times bigger, and less reliable, when this machine could have been scaled if necessary? It had been in development, and I'm sure the military was working on relay-based machines as well. So why the choice of digital with vacuum tubes? Also, the plaque at the Mark I said that it was decimal. I am slightly familiar with flip-flops and stuff, but what would be a way to make a decimal computer? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

2
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Bid list

by franke＠sbs.de

>> these things are headed for landfill big time. Along about 2010 or 2015 and >> trying to put together a representative 486 system from the "early 90's" is >> going to be damn near impossible. Look at the PDP-8's which spanned 15 >> years of production and are now pretty difficult to get hold of. > That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Trust > me, I don't think you're EVER going to have problems finding a 486 > motherboard, at least not in the next millenium. There has been a time when I thougt that picking up a ZX80 from dirt is not worth ... and now ? Also PET - have you seen the PETs on ePay ? I got most of my PET/CBMs way below USD 50 - and now ? Hard to finde won at a reasonable price. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Intellec 8 -v- Altair 8800

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

I posted the following - now translated message - on 23 October '98 Having had my wrist slapped, I apologise to all for such a very basic lack of knowledge and understanding. No doubt the same applies to the message When collecting vintage/classic computers it would seem to me that the apparently much sort after Altair 8800 is the Model T to the Intellec's R.R. Silver Ghost. At the time - 1974 - I thought the Altair was a very very cheap copy of my very very very expensive Intellec - and I still do! But then I would, wouldn't I? Have I fallen for all the eBay hype or have I've been wrong all these years? Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 6 months

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FS in UK - Intel & Cromemco Etc. circa 1974 & 1980

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

To anybody who couldn't read my original message because of html etc:- I thought it best to post it again - but then I would wouldn't I? Thanks to all those of you who replied about the computer equipment I'm selling I read all the replies up to about second week in September but lost those together with a massive pile of un-read mail up to a few weeks back.. If you havent had a reply - sorry - over confidence or Bill's bugs - I still haven't figured out which I've sorted through all my computers and equipment and listed them on my web pages .http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/ together with photos etc The Intell, Addmaster, Roytron, Mesonix etc. stuff is on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellintel.htm I have listed all the information I have, together with photographs of each item. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the folder containing all the original documentation but most of the stuff is circa 74/75. The Cromemcos and software stuff are on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellcromemco.htm There are three working Cromemco Systems circa 1978 to 1984 - two System Three's and one Z-2H - together with a pile of instruction and technical manuals. I have listed some of the more interesting software on some of the one hundred and fifty (approx) 8" disks. There may be some software or manuals that are needed by subscribers to this list - that shouldn't be bundled for sale with the equipment. If having seen my web site - it's not bad for someone who never progressed past machine code - you think I have, or even might have, something you want e-mail me and I will try to reply promptly. Unfortunately most of the stuff is stored 150 miles north of here in Worcester, so I won't get the chance to delve deeper very often. It may offend some sensibilities that I will be listing most of the stuff on eBay just as soon as I have time. Those of you who think I should be less grasping should remember that I bought all this stuff new before most of you were born. In the mean time I'm open to any offers and and will pay/arrange shipping to most countries Otherwise see it on eBay in due course. Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 6 months

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How is a microprocessor made?

by oajones＠bright.net

I've always wanted to ask this question. How is a microprocessor made? Can someone here on the list answer this question? --Alan oajones(a)bright.net

27 years, 6 months

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In case you thought Ebay couldn't get more ridiculous...

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

What the fu... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37155064

27 years, 6 months

7
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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 24, 9:53, Sam Ismail wrote: > Subject: Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa > On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: > > The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and > > would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. > > I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. > > AppleSoft would logically return a +1 for the above statement rather than > a -1. Why the PET returns a -1 is beyond me. Couldn't they have added > one more machine instruction to strip off the sign bit? The PET is actually following the more common convention. The bitwise complement of 0 (all zero bits) is -1 (all one bits), at least in a 2's-complement environment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

1
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old IBM calculator

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Today, I briefly attended an Earthwatch conference at the Harvard Science Center. It wasn't as good as it could have been, but what was interesting was the IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator, Mark I. This was apparently used by Harvard since 1946 or so. Now, it's in the lobby, or at least most of it. It's an electromechanical machine, no electronic components. Very fun to look at! The plaque said that in modern terms, it would have been 52 Hz and 1.7K RAM. It has one constant panel (dozens of rotary switches), an enormous array of relays, a missing multiplication module, a paper tape module (for output), a paper tape sequencer module (input), two typewriters (input and output), and a punched card device. It was shut off, except for flourescent lights, but I bet it could probably run...it was about 2 m tall and less than 1 m deep. The photos showed that it originally had a lot of pulleys on the back for dealing with paper tape. It is driven by a motor shaft that extends through the whole machine, spinning at 4 rpm. This acted as a clock and drove the tape mechanisms. Seems very easy to use, with proper instructions. I wouldn't mind having this in a hypothetical basement. On the plaque, it says it was used for ray tracing for lens design. Just thought someone would like to know :) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

1
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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 23, 16:03, Hans Franke wrote: > >> My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we > >> have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper > >> wire. > > Surplus shops have taken 215 transistors. > > Do you want to buy or sell source code? That brings back some fond memories :-) > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? Probably same place mine went: loaned, not returned. I still have ":More BASIC Computer Games: 84 Fabulous Games for Your Personal Computer", though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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27 years, 6 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have made double-sided boards that ran at 100MHz+. The trick was to us < (a) one side entirely unetched as a ground plane, (b) design all the < tracks as striplines, (c) know the characteristics of the PCB material, < (d) use 100% SMD components with the shortest possible ground < connections, (e) use carefully designed twisted pair lines to carry < signals about if you couldn't route the tracks, (f) terminate everything < properly and (g) take a lot of care and think about what you are doing. (h) accept lower component density on the board to do that. It's very doable but, a 4-6 layer makes it so much less painful for a production system. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education

by hhacker＠gte.net

I do not need to have messages like this sent to me dozens of times! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks <erd(a)infinet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, October 23, 1998 5:50 AM Subject: Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education >> >> > You play the game like this: >> > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. >. >.

27 years, 6 months

1
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Bid list

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Can you tell us more about the type of auction this is? Is it one of those auction where you can walk away with a pentium for $5 or is it more of the upper type wher you pretty much have to be within 105 of the retail valu in order to win it? Have you had any experience with this sort of auction? What I'm getting at is I've seen a few things on the list that I like but hve no idea what to bid on them. Also it seems like the terms for payement are very tight 2 days to send the money or you're out how do you propose to proceed? Are you going to send a "big" check for the bid and hope that everybody follow up on their bid? Thank you for the post. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ >I am on a major computer manufacture's surplus equipment bid list. >The list that came out today has a lot of equipment that would be of >interest to people on this list. >I am not interested in making any money from this all that I ask is that all >costs will be covered. I will have to pay the shipping from them to me and >that will needed to be figured into the final cost. I have just spoken to >Bruce Lane about this and he is putting it on his web site. I would also >ask that anyone that is interested in putting in a bid just email me with >the line of interest and $ they want me to bid per unit. You can bid on any ># up to the quantity listed. Please include your Phone # In case of any >questions. >If there are multiple bids on one item I will try my best to use the time of >the bid to >choose priority. I have no intention of making any money from this and hope >people will understand if I get flooded I may have to cut things off. >To give me time please let me know of any interest by Sunday Oct. 25 to give >me time to reformat and sort everything for sending in the final bid by noon >Monday. > >Also please keep any phone calls to before 10:00 PM eastern time. I try to >keep peace with the wife :) >Thanks >Dan Burrows >336-376-0468 >dburrows(a)netpath.net > > >

27 years, 6 months

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ZILOG article in South China Morning Post

by thomas＠0000000.com

Hi, Since I was sorta plugging using the Z180 in consumer electronics earlier today and this thread about the Z80 is running around, I tho't I'd post this link. The article covers Zilog history in brief and where they think they're headed. Zilog has been plugging the Z8 for awhile but I think the Z180 represents the company's real family jewels. Thomas ---- Revamped Zilog aims for the top in chip markets ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.scmp.com/news/template/Tec-Template.idc?artid=19981019192016031&…

27 years, 6 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Are z80's still being produced? Yes. <If so, are they the same as the 1980 ones? actually the z80 is 1976 design and yes. The z180 is an enhanced part that is very popular in controls and other embedded uses. <I would think so, since the TI-86 (still in production) uses < a z80. BTW, I guess comparing the multi-Z80 system to a 386 isn't too < fair. It's fair as the z80s were only running at 6MHz. <How much faster is it than 1 z80 running the same program? Not terribly. The actual test only used one. The rest were doing background tasks (printing). Z80 excels at IO and byte oriented tasks. The real advanatge was the system had highly optimized IO channels for everything and the disks had track caching. The other minor advantage is the z80 code used was tight and by time 386s got in PCs code bloat had already set in. FYI: the machine was originally designed to tackle several things more speed from a cpu, Multiprocessing/multitasking and more efficient IO systems. The IO systems part proved to be the key to using one cpu more efficiently. Multiple CPUs had a minor advantage that was offset by fairly complex programming. To this day that system runs but with only one master cpu installed(the other three are spares). Two years later Compupro would come up with the MPX1 combined with their frequent use of DMA to make one of the fastest s100 systems available (for any given cpu). Basically doing the same work I did earlier for myself and proving that multiple CPUs and DMA can be a performance enhancement when applied to the bottlenecks (most tend to occur at the IO level). <Why is everyone making multi-z80 machines, anyway? Partially to capitalize on available software (mountains of it all free) and experince. <Why not 6502 or 6800 or even (gasp!) 8088? Because those were done also. I have a trackstar128, two 6502s. IT has a lot to do with the way the CPUs interface and the ability to interconnect them so they don't fight each other. The 8088 has a selection of bus interface chips that allow for multiple CPUs on the same buss (8289). Also multiple CPUs are a cost/complexity vs performance race and some win better in that contest. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i've got slackware 3.0 two disk set somewhere around here i'll let go for $5 In a message dated 10/23/98 8:30:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time, bwish(a)pcfa.org writes: > You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to > give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat > 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who > would do something similar. > > I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who > would either give them to you or let you borrow them.

27 years, 6 months

1
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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educations)

by mtapley＠swri.edu

Chuck McManis wrote: >You guys don't get it. :-) > >You play the game like this: > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > 2) Scout for (surface) deposit of iron ore and start mining ore. >... > 15) Using generator create electricity. > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > ... >First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) > Oh, I got it. I used to play that game with myself, but with the goal being "First one to match orbits and dock at the space station in polar orbit wins." I could never figure out a workable way to do it in one lifetime. (ObCC: guidance computers were a serious problem. Relays I built, clicking away in the vibration environment induced by a rocket I built? Right....Sequencers? Stable time reference? Oy.) I guess I'd have to start out: 1) Scout for native woman. 2) Establish dynasty. 3) Found school/religion to keep dynasty on task 4) Gosub Chuck's #1) above. ... :-) - Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.

27 years, 6 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by maxeskin＠law-smtpdev.hotmail.com

Are z80's still being produced? If so, are they the same as the 1980 ones? I would think so, since the TI-86 (still in production) uses a z80. BTW, I guess comparing the multi-Z80 system to a 386 isn't too fair. How much faster is it than 1 z80 running the same program? Why is everyone making multi-z80 machines, anyway? Why not 6502 or 6800 or even (gasp!) 8088? >< connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. > >Huh? I have 6 cards, s100 protoboards with about 25-40 pieces of mos and >TTL on them that I wrapped in 1981 still running. Ohmic losses? What were >you doing wrong. Remember #30 is for signals not power! > >< Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven >< to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. >< Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? > >Those 6 boards built a multi z80 system with DMA and slave processors for >things like IO and disks. It helps but the z80 bus is so busy that it's >very hard to slip inbetween cycles so you steal cpu cycles by holding it >off with BUSRQ/. Z280, z8000 and Z380 use burst mode access to the bus so >that other devices can get in and get a few cycles without holding up the >cpu. Even with slaves you reach a bottleneck between memory management >and overhead to move data around. Still the results with 6mhz z80s were >enough to blow away 386/16 class machine for text oriented applications. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

2
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DEC Hardware

by jrice＠texoma.net

I'm going to look at some DEC hardware, a PDP-11/34 and some VAX equipment. I'm not into DEC's so I thought I'd look at it as possibly a rescue setup. This company is going to want some residual value payment. how much is this stuff worth? It was taken out of service a couple of months ago. I'll try to get a list of what's available. It's located about 60 miles from Dallas. I might want one of the Vax boxes, but I don't want any PDP hardware. Anyone interested? James

27 years, 6 months

1
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128k Mac Schematic needed

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

Hi, group. My 128k Mac went south on me. When I first got it a year ago, it turned on and the screen came up and asked for a floppy. Not having a system disk that old, I just put it in storage until I came across one. Needless to say, next time I turned it on the floppy made funny noises and kept spitting the disk out and no video. Does anyone have a schematic for the little beast so I can get it cooking again? If I have to, I can use my Mac Plus for my history presentations, but I would rather use the original, if possible. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

27 years, 6 months

5
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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 23, 14:04, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > Mine's at home, but I do happen to have a version I ported to the PET > in 1978 that is sitting right here on my SPARCstation disk. I've got > xpet, and a directory full of my old tapes that I converted to .d64 > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > than one person would get annoyed. I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. I'm fairly sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

2
1
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EDSAC celebration?

by dpeschel＠u.washington.edu

This question has been rattling around in my head for some time. Perhaps one of the UK people has the answer. I enjoyed the Manchester Mark I recreation. I saw the programming contest, thought about writing something really fantastic (a small computer language, whatever), looked closer at the architecture of the machine, and changed my mind. It's pretty limited. I was *quite* impressed by the noodle-timer program that won the contest, though. But I always liked the EDSAC much more than the Manchester Mark I (baby or full version). It has a very elegant design and you can get actual work done with it. (Because the Mark I ran a stored program first but was in proto- type stage, I see the EDSAC as the first working modern stored-prgoram computer, followed soon after by the finished Mark I.) And the Initial Orders are STILL one of the most ingenious programs ever. Except I haven't heard anything about an EDSAC recreation, and the 50th anniversary date is coming up! (Is it June 6 1999 or some time in May?) And M. V. Wilkes has remained active in the field, so he might be inclined to do something like this. Is anything planned? If nothing ends up happening, I intend to get an autographed copy of the Wilkes/Wheeler/Gill book. P.S. IMO history shows that British computer designs are often MUCH more sensible than their American contemporaries. They treat the computer as a tool to be used rather than a hunk of hardware with software slapped on later. Too bad history shows that British computer *sales* are LESS successful than their American counterparts. -- Derek

27 years, 6 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 23, 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 23, 14:04, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > > than one person would get annoyed. > > I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. I'm fairly > sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) I was right -- I found it, all 118 lines, including comments, along with a pile of other stuff from David Ahl, such as KING.BAS (same idea, but twice as big). Who remembers this one: 1 PRINT "DIRECT YOUR DOG TO ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FILES:" 2 PRINT "KB:--KEYBOARD, LP:--PRINTER, PP:--HIGH SPEED PUNCH" 3 INPUT "WHICH ONE";A$ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 6 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. It's not "a VAX site", but Hammurabi does appear on the Spring 78 RT-11 SIG tape, and this is available by anonymous ftp from ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus… The top looks like: 100 PRINT "YOU ARE THE RULER OF THE ANCIENT KINGDOM OF SUMERIA." 101 PRINT "YOUR PEOPLE CALL YOU 'HAMURABI THE WISE'. YOUR TASK IS" 102 PRINT "TO DEVELOP A STABLE ECONOMY BY THE WISE MANAGEMENT OF" 103 PRINT "YOUR RESOURCES. YOU WILL BE BESET FROM TIME TO TIME" 104 PRINT "BY NATURAL EVENTS. THE ONLY HELP I CAN GIVE YOU IS THE " 105 PRINT "FACT THAT IT TAKES 2 BUSHELS OF GRAIN AS SEED TO PLANT" 106 PRINT "AN ACRE. MAY YOU JUDGE WELL, ALKNOWING HAMURABI." 107 PRINT "***********HAMURABI IS HERE***********" 110 P=95 (...) > I'm fairly > sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) Heck, I've got my set of 4 8" SSSD floppies straight from Creative Computing with "101 Basic Games" and "More Basic Games". It's fun to fire up the IMSAI, load a game, fix the typos (yes, there are typos in many of the MBASIC sources!), and play a game of blackjack, lunar lander, or Hamurabi! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 6 months

1
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Intellec 8 -v- Altair 8800

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

When collecting vintage/classic computers it would seem to me that the apparently much sort after Altair 8800 is the Model T to the Intellec's R.R. Silver Ghost. At the time - 1974 - I thought the Altair was a very very cheap copy of my very very very expensive Intellec - and I still do! But then I would, wouldn't I? Have I fallen for all the eBay hype or have I've been wrong all these years? Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 6 months

1
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AY 3500

by ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu

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27 years, 6 months

1
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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Wire wrap?...hmmm I have problems with that in ohmic losses even the < connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. Huh? I have 6 cards, s100 protoboards with about 25-40 pieces of mos and TTL on them that I wrapped in 1981 still running. Ohmic losses? What were you doing wrong. Remember #30 is for signals not power! < Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven < to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. < Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? Those 6 boards built a multi z80 system with DMA and slave processors for things like IO and disks. It helps but the z80 bus is so busy that it's very hard to slip inbetween cycles so you steal cpu cycles by holding it off with BUSRQ/. Z280, z8000 and Z380 use burst mode access to the bus so that other devices can get in and get a few cycles without holding up the cpu. Even with slaves you reach a bottleneck between memory management and overhead to move data around. Still the results with 6mhz z80s were enough to blow away 386/16 class machine for text oriented applications. Allison

27 years, 6 months

1
0
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PDP-11/70 rescued!

by Innfogra＠aol.com

What third party Unibus disk controllers are you looking for. I may have some non DEC controllers. I also have an HSC50, 5 RA81s, an RA60 and a TU 81+ in Portland Oregon that I am interested in selling. I think I have a couple of Eagles for sale too. I also have a VAX 730 with R80 & RL02 for sale. Paxton

27 years, 6 months

2
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PDP-10 arch question

by franke＠sbs.de

> < What machines have had bit pointers? > 8051. There may be others. Wasn't the 432 able to adress whole Objectspace as Bits ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

2
1
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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Wow - thats it - I 've been already eaten up by megagraphics. >> So, anything I could Imagine was to reduce graphics to ASCII >> ... but Yo thats it Hamurabi ! >> Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > Mine's at home, but I do happen to have a version I ported to the PET > in 1978 that is sitting right here on my SPARCstation disk. I've got > xpet, and a directory full of my old tapes that I converted to .d64 > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > than one person would get annoyed. If anyone _really_ wants a copy, I > can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: > The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and > would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. > I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. Hmm shure ? I have to admit that I don't remember (stupid meone). But I think it will . After all Applesoft is jsut another MS-Basic. I'll try as soon as I'm back home. I'll post the result. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

1
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0 0

Bid list

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 10/23/98 5:54:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dburrows(a)netpath.net writes: << > BURROUGHS > >23879724 G 300 VIDEO BOARD ET110 $5 ?Terminal cards for a 8 bit PC? >283531-006 G 2 1351 CONT CCA ??? don't know what it is These are Color Graphic Adapters for the PC ISA bus >2993-0666 G 295 WER SUPPLY $5 to $8 >3388-7498 G 169 KEYBOARD ASSY $5 >AP1351 G 5 PRINTER, AP 1351 If this is a complete printer $10 to $15 Small serial printer, 9 pin dot Matrix. >B28CPU G 1 CPU I think a 286 CPU for the Convergent Engine series, small box computers. It may need drives to make it work. >E2817B39-HT G 62 CRT $5 considering that they will have to pay to dispose of to meet EPA regs. >ET-1100 G 9 TERMINAL $5 to $10 Disposal costs as above. > >Any ideas? >> More terminals than I care to deal with. Be carefull with you bidding, there can be a lot of bulk wiith this stuff. Bid slightly over the scrap price unless you can't live without it. If you can't live without it bid 30% maybe. Watch your quantities. Paxton

27 years, 6 months

1
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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education

by franke＠sbs.de

> You play the game like this: > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > 2) Scout for (surface) deposit of iron ore and start mining ore. > 3) Using Coal + Ore build Pig Iron > 4) Using Pig Iron build picks and shovels to increase your > mining efficiency. > 5) Build Smelter/Foundry > 6) Locate lime and concrete develop cement. > 7) Collect Sand and use with cement to build an iron casting apparatus > 8) Using the sand casting build a steam boiler and steam engine > 9) Using the steam engine and iron casting build metal stamping > 10) Using Steam engine and metal stamping build rail road. > 11) Start mining below ground and locate Copper. > 12) Build a copper foundry. > 13) Using metal stamping build wire puller (makes wire) > 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. > 15) Using generator create electricity. > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > ... > First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) What about creating a Game ? Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< WIRE_WRAP!?!?!?! ICK! I usually pull out my cheapo PCB CAD program.... < A little laser-printer transfer plastic and an exacto-knife. the best you can do with that is two sided and that might run at 25-40MHz and that's pushing. < I cannot believe that there can be so many extremely complex processors < there running up to 667Mcyc (Alpha) and there not be any simple controll < with far less transistor counts that match or exceed those speeds. < There is no way we can get 600Mcyc clock speeds out of a 10,000,000 < transistor chip but can't get at least that out of a 100,000 transistor < chip. It all that complexity that permits parallelism of functions. The simpler machine are limited by the very direct and limiting propagation delays of gates. < As for the Z-80 vs Alpha features.... I like: < < 1) I/O ports. I hate the memory map stuff. (yes, I know it is the wa < things are done now) Memory mapped ops even with Z80 allow you to do things like OR data with a device or AND data from a device or use the BIT ops to test a bit in the device. None of which the IN or OUT can do directly. when you only have 64kb memory mapped hurts some. When you have 4Gb so what if you give up a meg to memory mapped IO. FYI the PDP-11 is also memory mapped and uses it to very good advantage! < (((((((THE Z-BUS!!!)))))))) (not the Z380 bus, that's almost as hosed a < the Alpha bus). < Do the Z-80 bus but with the data size control lines that I explained < above.... (or keep a 64 bit data bus and run a local bus into a 'DMA' (f < a lack of a better word)... Wait! A bus mastering device!!!! (<-- bett < word).) Zbus give advance status of the transaction to occur, that information is handy for tweeking the memory to make it get there in time instead of wait states. Z80 bus has a high bus bandwidth and poor bus utilization and this shows up when you have DMA peripherls. I'm not bombing z80, I happen to like it and have used it for 20+ years! I'm realist enough to know it's limitations and weaknesses and I can understand why the z380 is the way it is. Personally I happen to like the z280 as the user/system spaces make the 64k limits far easier to work with and also offers some speed with the 16bit bus, cache and a paged MMU while not locking the bus. The Z180 is a good compromize and easy to work with at low speeds, at 20+mhz it's a bear as the world around it has to keep up. It's not like using the z80 at 4 or 6mhz any more when you notice that the decoding dealys and the buffering delays are are a significant part of the system timing. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Book Source

by rax＠warbaby.com

A while back, someone posted a great source for used and out of print books. I've lost the URL and can't remember the name - could someone please repost it? Thanks R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 6 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit >> processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the >> 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this >> 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions >> can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage >> a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data > Well, it might be fun to redo TRS-80 Level I BASIC with 32-bit > instructions. (No way would I try to do that with LDOS/LS-DOS -- > it's already perfect). But just tell me where 32 Bit instructions can be usefull ? In fact, I can't think of any part inside a BASIC. But the higher clockrates are a nice thing - and maybe the z180 for 3.0 style bankswitching. BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Linix is free, but it still costs money. >> You need a computer, need a CD, need other HW. >> You need a Distribution CD >> And a little time. >> Shure, you can just get it over the Web ... and pay $$$ >> just for transmission ... and the needed time. >> And after thet you need time to install ... >> TIME IS MONEY. >> Linux is free but not without cost. > ** OR ** > You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to > give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat > 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who > would do something similar. > I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who > would either give them to you or let you borrow them. What I want to point out is that the price of a OS isn't just the package you buy at a shop. It's about the time you spend in installing and trying and reconfiguration etc. So, to come back on topic, the best for a TRS-80 emulator is still DOS. Install it, or even boot >from a Disk. You could even put the emulator and DOS and some TRS-Apps on one 1.44 bootdisk. And best of all - Disk access will be Disk access. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Bid list

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Doug Jones's FAQ estimates the production run over the -8 family's lifetime at about three hundred thousand. See http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/dec-faq/pdp8/faq-doc-6.h… for more detailed breakdowns. Tim.

27 years, 6 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >> going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get >> it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file > Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under junior? > LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! Linix is free, but it still costs money. You need a computer, need a CD, need other HW. You need a Distribution CD And a little time. Shure, you can just get it over the Web ... and pay $$$ just for transmission ... and the needed time. And after thet you need time to install ... TIME IS MONEY. Linux is free but not without cost. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Bid list

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Its funny, I read through the list, crossing my fingers and hoping for a PDP-8 core stack, and 90% of it is PC junk. Then I kind of laughed because of course that stuff will probably be "collectable" for my daughter. Assuming she decides to collect computers. Although if history is any measure then she'll probably collect Pentium II machines since that will be the "hot" machine that she can't afford (stuck with a measly 75Mhz P5 :-) Another factiod registered which is PC collecting is going to be *much* more of an art than say mini-computer collecting is because the technology is changing soooo quickly. In case you haven't noticed there is a certain temporal component in the PC compatible space where the hardware, and more importantly the software, are tied together at their release dates. "Visual BASIC, Win 3.1, Borland C++, 486/66" they make a set. Use this stuff on a Pentium and it won't use half the features, use it on a 386 and it won't run acceptably. And how "long" was the 486 PC window? Perhaps 3-5 years? Compare that with the utter contempt with which people treat 486 motherboards (3 for $5.00 at Weird Stuff Warehouse) and you realize that these things are headed for landfill big time. Along about 2010 or 2015 and trying to put together a representative 486 system from the "early 90's" is going to be damn near impossible. Look at the PDP-8's which spanned 15 years of production and are now pretty difficult to get hold of. I don't know if I should laugh or buy an old Dell 486 box and wrap it up in plastic and dessicant and save it for 20 years. --Chuck

27 years, 6 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I'm searching for a TRS-80 emulator for the Model III. I need it to be able to use disk images (such as LDOS), and boot from them. ThAnX, -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> The only reason that I need the emulator is to make LDOS, and a few other programs for the Model III - not to imitate having an actual III :^)

27 years, 6 months

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Linux on-track topic (was RE: TRS-80 emulators)

by jsalzman＠hersheys.com

Sounds like they have buying power greater than Wal-Mart's to offer such pricing. Either that, or they have exclusive rights to manufacturer or publisher overruns or defects. Jeff Salzman ------------------ "If Taelons had hair, would Du'uh be a blond?" >Haven't all you hard-core Linuxers bought from www.linuxmall.com yet? I >have paid $1.49 for CD's of the last 6 distributions I've used. They also >sell major applications (Word Perfect, Star Office, Applixware) for less >than the source vendors. I think I got the Applixware student version for >~$50 a couple of years ago. Oh yeah, they also sell Oreily books cheaper >than Oreily... >

27 years, 6 months

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PDP-11/70 rescued!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>While I don't regret rescuing this stuff, I have no clue how long it will be >until I could ever power this stuff on. The Hut has its own 60 Amp feed >seperate from the house, but 110/220, no three-phase power. I suppose I >could purchase/rig-up a 220V<->3Ph mechanical converter, You don't need three-phase for the equipment you got - if you look at the DEC power controllers, they just split out the three phase into three 120VAC circuits which power the individual boxes. Especially as you have MOS instead of core memory, 30 Amps will be plenty for a CPU, memory, and a couple of Fuji Eagles. Some big Massbus disks (and their Memorex and CDC mechanical equivalents) do need three-phase for the drive motor, but I didn't see these in your list. >P.S. ISTR that PDP-11/70's and VAX-11/750's use the same hex-height 39-bit >ECC memory boards. Is this true? Assuming you have the DEC MK11 memory boxes, yes this is true. There are also third-party memory boards available for 11/70's; my favorite are the board sets that pop into the 11/70's backplane and give you 4 Megs of cache memory, so there's no need for memory boxes! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 6 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> You play the game like this: >>> 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > . > . > . >>> 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. >>> 15) Using generator create electricity. >>> 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. >>> ... >>> First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) > Hey! I though about this for a grad project in History - build a computer > using Roman technology (metallurgy, etc., since the Romans didn't have > electricity). Just what do you want ? The Z1 was _complete_ echanical and was build by hand on a kitchen table - and used anything also known from modern computers, including binary floating point. >> What about creating a Game ? >> Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) > > Not on a PDP-8. There was a vector graphics board set. It used an > oscilloscope for a display tube. As was proven in a patent lawsuit > filed against Nintendo, video games did exist before Pong, just not > in the living rooms of America. Stop, my question was not about greating a game on a PDP. The intention was to build a computer game where building a PDP (or something like that) is the goal ... Such a basic build up an economy game like Civilisation etc. But instead of geting welthier all the time you have to build up a PDP as soon as possible Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Booklovers: Danger!

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

Rax (Sorry, can't remember your real name) wanted to know, and it seems I kept the original message. Philip. ---------------------- Forwarded by Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen on 23/10/98 13:10 --------------------------- classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu on 06/09/98 06:29:19 To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu cc: (bcc: Philip Belben) Subject: Booklovers: Danger! Maybe I shouldn't post this.... O wot'th'ell, here goes. I have discovered recently a very dangerous on-line book service, which, in my *very* humble opinion, just beats the bloody tar out of the 'major' ones.. (Amazon, Barnes, etc). Some of you Listmembers may already be aware of these folks.. if not, the URL is; www.abebooks.com I'm *definitely* in Big $$$ Trouble. I have a very large library, around 10K volumes, journals, periodicals, papers... collected over many years. A lot of it is old, wierd, rare, fringe-science, technology, engineering, computing, etc. Now I find ABE (American Book Exchange) and they've got titles I've been searching for for *ages*... including a book I read in 4th Grade and never heard of since... oh dear: most of the booksellers on ABE take credit cards... damn, damn, damn...! I've already found over $1K of stuff I must have.. NOW! Anyway, I hereby disclaim and hold myself inurred and harmless >from anyone who goes bankrupt because I turned them on to ABE. Just try searching with Van Nostrand or Wiley or Howard Sams entered in the 'Publisher' slot... or pdp-11 in the 'keywords' section.... I'm in **trouble** ! Cheers ;} John

27 years, 6 months

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Rare 1976 Intel MCS-85 System Design Kit

by franke＠sbs.de

> I don't know if it is rare, but it certainly sounds unusual. Current price > is $27.00 and the reserve has not been met. > Another interesting item from ebay. URL is: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36318754 Go OFF it's MINE ! :))) In fact, it's not realy rare, zillions have bin made, but I still miss it. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> That sucks (in my opinion). (You like my 16bit addressing? kinda make you > yearn for the good 'ol days when you programmed in hex! Like real men! No > sir! We didn't have no Visual Basic or C+++++++++! When we wrote a silly > like program, it was an accomplishment! (....but they still were silly > little programs.)). But I digress.... > I like: > IO port 0=Keyboard control > IO port 1=Keyboard data > IO port 2=Device 1 control > IO port 3=Device data > etc. Gee fine - back to the time when the CPU had to do any little pice of sh.. by itself - never asked why Mainframes can handle so much more date with the same tecnologie than PCs ? go back and learn. > Your response: "But, what if you need to transfer a big block of data like > a NIC? You really need to memory map that." > My answer: "Pretend that the IO addresses are memory. With a 128 bit > address bus, you'll never run out of spaces!" So waht now ? memory maped or I/O space There is ABSOLUTLY no sense in building a super fast CPU and then spending all time in I/O polling (or interrupt handling) Lets get real again. Gruss H. P.S.: in 1986 I had a 100 MHz Turing machine running - I bet it was one of the fastest computers at this time - Fast and Useless. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Hello Again

by franke＠sbs.de

>> In a recent telephone conversation with Tony Duell, he mentioned that >> someone (was it Kevan?) was thinking of doing a VCF in the UK. To that > I think you missed his posting where he said he had received only 5 > replies. So it looks like a non-stater. Gee - this is not an option. >> person: I am definitely prepared to support you. I can provide plenty of >> computers for exhibiting; I can talk on some suitable subject; I am >> prepared to chip in a fair amount of dosh to get this show on the road. > I'll also provide machines and a talk if anything comes of this. I will haul up one trunk of machines. > Alas I can't provide much cash at the moment... Hmm maybe s.o. should look out for a place (not nessecary as fancy as the Santa Clara Convention Centre :), and when we have actual numbers, we might try to put up the money. I don't have much availabe either, but I thing we can find a solution. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> >The only thing I saw of interest: > > BURROUGHS > >23879724 G 300 VIDEO BOARD ET110 $5 >283531-006 G 2 1351 CONT CCA ??? don't know what it is >2993-0666 G 295 WER SUPPLY $5 to $8 >3388-7498 G 169 KEYBOARD ASSY $5 >AP1351 G 5 PRINTER, AP 1351 If this is a complete printer $10 to $15 >B28CPU G 1 CPU >E2817B39-HT G 62 CRT $5 considering that they will have to pay to dispose of to meet EPA regs. >ET-1100 G 9 TERMINAL $5 to $10 Disposal costs as above. > >Any ideas? I put what I would bid by each item I could guess. I am not familiar with Burroughs equipment. Remember these are EACH prices. >There's also a ton of Apple ][ stuff like keyboards, power supplies, disk >drive mechs, etc. Great if you wanted to start a classic Apple ][ >restoration and repair business (providing the stuff is all new). That is why I thought this would be of interest to this list. If you note in the header of the list it is all in good condition. This historically means that it is surplus from a repair depot. The other condition code they have had in the past are as follows (pasted from the weekly bid list) CD CODE "N" = Never Used With No Factory Warranty. "G" = Used Material In Good Condition. "U" = Unknown functionality, RETURNS will be allowed ONLY if MISSING MAJOR components. "D" = Defective material with no returns allowed Dan

27 years, 6 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>Can you tell us more about the type of auction this is? Sealed bid >Is it one of those auction where you can walk away with a pentium for $5 YES On last weeks bid I won a VAX4000-300 for $82. a bunch if DIgiboards for $5.00 ea. Sorry everyone that has commercial value to me. >is it more of the upper type wher you pretty much have to be within 105 of >the retail valu in order to win it? Not at all. This equipment is from a new division that did not have a surplus sales group. Tha format was different than the usual bid lists so I called my rep. about last weeks list and they are hoping to get 5 cents on the dollar. Anything that does not sell will be going to be recycled as they are very carefull about EPA regs. >Have you had any experience with this sort of auction? I have been doing business with them for over a year. The regular weekly bids I rarely get good deals on - about 70% to 80% of wholesale are typical. The special bids like these are where I make out. I will admit that this equipment is not the usual type they offer - remember it is a newly acquired division. >What I'm getting at is I've seen a few things on the list that I like but >hve no idea what to bid on them. I would be sure to be over the scrap value (figure 50 to 75 cents a pound is scrap value) but based on the bid I won last week not more than 5% of wholesale new. >Also it seems like the terms for payement are very tight 2 days to send the >money or you're out how do you propose to proceed? Are you going to send a >"big" check for the bid and hope that everybody follow up on their bid? I still do not know why they put that in there. I actually have 15 days >from shipment to pay for it. provided I am not way above my theoretical credit limit and YES I am hoping that everyone will be following through because I will be stuck with the equipment if they don't. I have had some long discussions with a couple of people on this list about this and was informed that most everyone is quite honorable. Another note of interest I have only gotten the response for 1 of last weeks bids so far. It had to be in on monday and I got the response thursday (1 day late). Tuesdays bids were supposed to be released thursday. When I get the response to those bids I will let you know. Don't worry if I think any bids are to high I will let you know. I can only do this however on equipment that I am familiar with. For shipping considerations due to the amount I won on last weeks bid I have told them to change it to truck and gave them my account info for a major truck line, This is the first time I have had to change to truck shipping. Also for figuring shipping I am in North Carolina. Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 6 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't >> there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). > The only "official" operating system for a Model III with a hard > drive _was_ LDOS. Also for the Model One. TRSDOS 6, later called > LS-DOS, was written by Logical Systems for the Model 4. (There > was also a version of LS-DOS for the Model II/12 series [8" drives] > but all of my copies were lost years back in a move, along with a > lot of other material related to those systems -- as Ben Franklin > once said, three moves equals one fire). Jep, but what about booting ? The only LDOS I have needs still to boot from FD. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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ARCnet...

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

I've got a box of them you can have for the shipping cost. I haven't checked lately, but I think there are like 8 or 10 or more in the box... >Arfon Gryffydd wrote: >> >> 2) Anyone have any old ARCnet cards they wanna get rid of??? > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

27 years, 6 months

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Bid list

by kyrrin＠jps.net

At 19:27 22-10-98 -0700, you wrote: >A little more information such as the equipment being offered would help >us decide if there's anything we want :) The list is on my page, Sam. It's huge! 330K plus. That's why we decided not to send it directly to the list. The URL for the primary page is in my sig line. It can be reached directly at: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin/bidlist.txt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 6 months

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Follow-up: Bid list

by kyrrin＠jps.net

The bid list that Dan Burrows mentioned is available for viewing on my web site. Look for the obvious link from the main page. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 6 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

I am on a major computer manufacture's surplus equipment bid list. The list that came out today has a lot of equipment that would be of interest to people on this list. I am not interested in making any money from this all that I ask is that all costs will be covered. I will have to pay the shipping from them to me and that will needed to be figured into the final cost. I have just spoken to Bruce Lane about this and he is putting it on his web site. I would also ask that anyone that is interested in putting in a bid just email me with the line of interest and $ they want me to bid per unit. You can bid on any # up to the quantity listed. Please include your Phone # In case of any questions. If there are multiple bids on one item I will try my best to use the time of the bid to choose priority. I have no intention of making any money from this and hope people will understand if I get flooded I may have to cut things off. To give me time please let me know of any interest by Sunday Oct. 25 to give me time to reformat and sort everything for sending in the final bid by noon Monday. Also please keep any phone calls to before 10:00 PM eastern time. I try to keep peace with the wife :) Thanks Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 6 months

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FW: H8 computer

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Hey folks! I got this from the Heath reflector I am subscribed to. I already have an H8 that I built back in '83 so one of you should get it. I believe the SS-9000 Ron refers to is a Heathkit communications receiver (shortwave rcvr.) which can be controlled by computer. Have to check my old Heathkit catalog file on this. Email Ron directly. >Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:49:43 -0400 >Reply-To: Ronald Oxley <rtoxl(a)ANDREWS.EDU> >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List <HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV> >From: Ronald Oxley <rtoxl(a)ANDREWS.EDU> >Subject: H8 computer >Comments: cc: heathkit(a)qth.net >To: HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV >X-UIDL: 9c2d5417934b901b38c6fc24968d3523 > >For Sale: > >Heathkit H8 computer system. Includes computer, disk drive, terminal, >printer and software. Included with software is program for controlling >SS-9000 transceiver. Make offer if interested. > >73, >Ron, WM8Z > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff HEATH >Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- > Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/

27 years, 6 months

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Lisa 2 or 2/5 I/O board wanted

by eric＠brouhaha.com

I'm looking for a Lisa 2 or 2/5 I/O board. That's the version of the board with the nicad battery pack; the 2/10 I/O board did not have the battery or supporting electronics. Actually I'd be interested in any spare Lisa parts at all, working or not. Cheers, Eric

27 years, 6 months

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L-DOS

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>> >I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of >> >course) is OS-9. >> > >> >-tony >> > >> You've got to be a real masochist or something, I HAVE TO work with it and >> I'd give it away for any other OS. Unless you're talking about the COCO >> version which I heard was pretty good for the platform it was intended; OS-9 > >Note I said '8 bit OS'. That rules out OS9-68K, etc. I was refering to >the original 6809 version which is pretty darn good. Yes the it fits the description of being 20 years old and 10 years ahead (loosely:) > >-tony >

27 years, 6 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file format of the disk image. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> I'm also trying to find something that's not shareware (ie: can only emulate Mod I, and can emulate Mod III arfer $45 registration fee). ---------- > From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 6:59 PM > > For what host? xtrs can emulate the M3, and on a linux machine it will > use physical drives, so presumably you can make disks for your real model > 3. xtrs runs under x on just about any unix machine. > > There may be emulators for other platforms that can do the same. > > A good place to start is Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. Search for that with > your favourite search engine (the URL is not to hand at the moment, alas). > > -tony >

27 years, 6 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

For some reason, I thought Linux was like $50, or something. Just forget that comment. I'm downloading it now. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 > > Bzzzt, Linux is free That means you don't need money to get it. Get it? > > >format of the disk image. > >-- > > -Jason > >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > > ICQ#-1730318 > >

27 years, 6 months

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L-DOS

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>Incidentally, if anyone's interested in LDOS, the source code for (I >think) 6.3.x, along with disk images for the TRS-80 emulators are >availabe from Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. > >I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of >course) is OS-9. > >-tony > You've got to be a real masochist or something, I HAVE TO work with it and I'd give it away for any other OS. Unless you're talking about the COCO version which I heard was pretty good for the platform it was intended; OS-9 is a dinosaur (and I don't mean a lean mean one) To quote one definition I read : OS-9 is a 20 year old OS that is 10 years ahead of it's time (for those who don't get it: it's 10 years outdated relying on reputation) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/

27 years, 6 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get >it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file Bzzzt, Linux is free That means you don't need money to get it. Get it? >format of the disk image. >-- > -Jason >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318

27 years, 6 months

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TRS-80 Model 4 I/O ports?

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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27 years, 6 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide With a 128 bit wide data bus for a predominatly byte oriented machine all that means is every memory cycle gets you 16bytes at memory cycle speeds. It's a bus bandwidth saving trick as it effectively can give what ever your word time is to put up another 16bytes. This goes back to the core days when memory was slower than the CPU. The penelty is a whopper when all your doing it altering or writing one byte as you have to resort to RMW (read, modify, write) cycle at memory speeds. The alternate is a lot of word/byte selection logic that can slow things down. With the upper speed of available z80s (z180s180) being 33mhz there is plenty of speed so that it can hurry up and wait for the disk, floppy and user. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Building your own Z80 / performance

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have never tho't of the Z80 as a slow processor. I interfaced a Z180 < running at 18 mhz to a VGA board recently and using a C compiler was abl < build a machine that acted essentially like a 80286 running at 10 mhz. Inthe early to most of the 80s I've spent a fair amount of time using 6 or 8mhz z80s to blow the doors off of x86 hardware. The z80 is a better IO machine! < Z80 is a pretty cool platform for building an extremely cheap and modern < network computer since it acts a lot like a 16 bit processor. There's < you can do with it with a relatively minimal effort. The z280 is even better, the enhancements it has are pretty decent and it's faster still. Doing your own design in a FPGA is harder than would first appear. Unless your using a known core things like gate delays (race conditions) can bite you. Also some routing paths can be slower than others so you may get far less than the rated Tpd. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thoug < about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist Some of the early slow ones (under 200mhz) are in the used market for under a couple hundred. The other approches witll cost that much or more for superfast memory. < < Tell me more... what are Verilog, Xilinx or Altera? FPGA, Field programable gate arrays. The fast ones are down in the 2.5ns range per gate. < Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? The z380 series is that. There is already a z382. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Model 4 I/O ports - found

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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27 years, 6 months

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Hello Again

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

Well, I'm back. And what a long time it took. Two weeks in the USA, seeing California and attending the VCF; nearly a week in bed with food poisoning after the flight home; and two weeks on this bl**** awful new e-mail software at work before I could get it to behave well enough to trust it with the volume of mail Classiccmp provides. (We're using Lotus Notes, BTW. Most of us now call it Lotus Not.) I really just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed the VCF. Well done Sam, a wonderful effort. In a recent telephone conversation with Tony Duell, he mentioned that someone (was it Kevan?) was thinking of doing a VCF in the UK. To that person: I am definitely prepared to support you. I can provide plenty of computers for exhibiting; I can talk on some suitable subject; I am prepared to chip in a fair amount of dosh to get this show on the road. Looking forward to a lot of fun again reading Classiccmp, Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk

27 years, 6 months

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OT: Modern college educations

by franke＠sbs.de

>> A lot of discussion here on college educations, my 0.02. >> 1) I don't expect New College Grads (NCG's) to know a lot, I expect them to >> know how to find something out that they don't know and how to power >> through bull s**t type work. I also expect them to know the basic theory > Please note that the 2 people I was moaning about earlier (one wanted a > 362.83 Ohm resistor for his LED, the other couldn't grasp '5V across > 4.7kOhms is a little more than a milliamp') were EEs. Thats bad - he should at least have taken a class about resistor networks to build his needed one in a 3D configuration :) >> 2) I don't expect CS majors to be taught assembly, per se. In case you > Oh, IMHO all CS students should have some idea as to what the 'computer' > they are writing programs for actually is. And that means having some > idea of digital electronics and assembly language. I find using tools > that you don't fully understand is a darn good way to produce poor code > (or whatever). So, you're just talking about the usual way , and why languages like C++ are so popular ... >> A fun exercise (in a nerdly sort of way) is to presume you've been dumped >> onto some raw continent with nothing but your brains and underpants, now >> build a PDP-8. (You can assume that you will have food and shelter.) > Hmm... I'd rather build a relay logic machine. Drawing the copper wire > for the coils would be painful but possible. Similarly making soft iron > cores and armatures. A lot easier than trying to make transistors, anyway. In fact, I think I would try to go for a more mechanical device - so I don't have the problem to create a power source and _stable_ voltage wich again includes semiconductors or other kinds of very delicate equipment like mercury rectifiers. >> One of the things that struck me about a 'dead' PC I was attempting to fix >> was that the BIOS flash had been zorched and a) Not only was their no way >> to recover the bios but b) the chipset used was both non-standard and made >> by a now non-existent company who left behind no records. Talk about > Thankfully the BIOS on this PC is in OTP EPROMs, and I have the official > source listings anyway. Ditto schematics of everything but the hard disk. > This machine can be repaired. But independent of the chipset, one should be able to build a minimal start up BIOS to launch a real mode DOS and then a reprogramming is just some steps away. >> and get it working again, when the engine computer on your car breaks, your >> out of luck. > Why do you think that when I get a car I am _not_ having any electronics > anywhere enar the engine :-). Mechanical stuff I can understand and > repair. Electronics I can understand, but there's no way I could make a > custom chip at home. Thats why I still drive a 1988 Skoda Rapid - no electronics. Just imagine the finger print sensor of your new Mercedes S-class care goes wild ... (But on the other hand, a CX25 TRI, maybe as a 6 wheeler, is still a dream car ...) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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FS in UK - Intel & Cromemco Etc. circa 1974 & 1980

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

Thanks to all those of you who replied about the computer equipment I'm selling I read all the replies up to about second week in September but lost those together with a massive pile of un-read mail up to a few weeks back.. If you havent had a reply - sorry - over confidence or Bill's bugs - I still haven't figured out which I've sorted through all my computers and equipment and listed them on my web pages .http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/ together with photos etc The Intell, Addmaster, Roytron, Mesonix etc. stuff is on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellintel.htm I have listed all the information I have, together with photographs of each item. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the folder containing all the original documentation but most of the stuff is circa 74/75. The Cromemcos and software stuff are on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellcromemco.htm There are three working Cromemco Systems circa 1978 to 1984 - two System Three's and one Z-2H - together with a pile of instruction and technical manuals. I have listed some of the more interesting software on some of the one hundred and fifty (approx) 8" disks. There may be some software or manuals that are needed by subscribers to this list - that shouldn't be bundled for sale with the equipment. If having seen my web site - it's not bad for someone who never progressed past machine code - you think I have, or even might have, something you want e-mail me and I will try to reply promptly. Unfortunately most of the stuff is stored 150 miles north of here in Worcester, so I won't get the chance to delve deeper very often. It may offend some sensibilities that I will be listing most of the stuff on eBay just as soon as I have time. Those of you who think I should be less grasping should remember that I bought all this stuff new before most of you were born, when In the mean time I'm open to any offers and and will pay/arrange shipping to most countries Otherwise see it on eBay in due course. Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 6 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I'm still skeptical. I'd love to hear more first-hand reports of < the oldest code still running as-is. Come on, code from the 50s < that's never been replaced? Running on what? Under an emulator? Ok, howabout a Brigeport milling machine with the PDP-8E it was purchased with in 1975, still running the same code. code from the 50s would likely be fortran or Cobol and yes it would be portable enough to go from one machine to the next with only a compile (no edits). Code from the late 60s era machine could still be running oth either native hardware or later machines that had to support old code. What is missed is code is expensive and hard to maintain so if you have something good and known you run it for a long time. I'm still running 8080/z80 code from the late 70s early 80s! If it aint broke don't fix it and the system that it was genned on is also 20 years old last March. So it's very easy for old code to linger. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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OT: Modern college educations

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >> >> A lot of discussion here on college educations, my 0.02. >> >> 1) I don't expect New College Grads (NCG's) to know a lot, I expect them to Don't. They're here to make the college money, not to get ahead in the real world. This is already starting to bite back, and will get worse. >I would also expect them to have some practical knowledge as well. And >how to make order-of-magnitude calculations/reliable guesses for results in >their subject. > >Please note that the 2 people I was moaning about earlier (one wanted a >362.83 Ohm resistor for his LED, the other couldn't grasp '5V across >4.7kOhms is a little more than a milliamp') were EEs. It's reasonable >that a chemistry student, or a classics student, or something like that >wouldn't have a clue about resistor values, but for an EE? It worries me. >It wories me a lot. But, why? Most of them will be getting a job in which they either follow flowcharts, or in which they figure out the prettiest way to put U1-49 on a PCB and attach a 6-pin connector to pins 1-6 of each U. If the world is unlucky enough to have one at a real circuit without a manual, the few comptetent engineers will find a way to make this guy's function unnecessary. At the end, of course, this raises unemployment and decreases skill. It's clear a crisis will occur <100y >Oh, IMHO all CS students should have some idea as to what the 'computer' >they are writing programs for actually is. And that means having some >idea of digital electronics and assembly language. I find using tools >that you don't fully understand is a darn good way to produce poor code >(or whatever). The thing that annoys me terribly is that people think they can do 'interesting' things on a computer, like web pages, and graphics, and so forth. IMHO, an artist should play with Photoshop and POVRay, while a person interested in computers should learn assembly. It's not mutually exclusive, of course, but I think there are too many people who could contribute a lot to technical stuff, while they sit lazily clicking away at the canvas. >Of course. Things you've taught yourself are rarely forgotten. If you >want to understand something then you will. Unlike the student who learnt >the book to pass the exam and has no real clue as to what it means. > Here's something I read in a ham radio book: "There are two ways to prepare for any test. One way is to study to learn the material, and the other is to pass the test. I suggest you study to pass the test" He was, of course, talking about the Amateur Radio certification test. Clearly, this book was made not for people interested in radio, but those who want to send messages about their private life all over the universe. > >> One of the things that struck me about a 'dead' PC I was attempting to fix >> was that the BIOS flash had been zorched and a) Not only was their no way >> to recover the bios but b) the chipset used was both non-standard and made >> by a now non-existent company who left behind no records. Talk about > >Thankfully the BIOS on this PC is in OTP EPROMs, and I have the official >source listings anyway. Ditto schematics of everything but the hard disk. >This machine can be repaired. > >> unfixable! When my PDP-8 breaks I can always go back to first principles > >Exactly. I've fixed my 8/e, 11s and PERQs to component level when necessary. > >> and get it working again, when the engine computer on your car breaks, your With a car, it's not that bad. You could order replacement chips sometimes, or you could try bypassing the messed-up function. >Why do you think that when I get a car I am _not_ having any electronics >anywhere enar the engine :-). Mechanical stuff I can understand and >repair. Electronics I can understand, but there's no way I could make a >custom chip at home. > >> Graphics card? "I'm sorry Mr. McManis but that information is only >> available under NDA to qualified customers who can prove a market of at >> least 1K units/month." Talk about self defeating! > >More people should insist on proper documentation. On a couple of >occasions I've returned a device to the shop that sold it under the UK >sale of goods act. The reason? It was not fit for the purpose that I >bought it for because important documentation (register maps, connector >pinouts, etc) was not available. Alas I doubt if the company ever >realised or cared... The thing is, the documents often don't exist. My father once worked for a HV PSU manufacturing firm, where the blueprints were just barely enough to manufacture the device. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 6 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< But just tell me where 32 Bit instructions can be usefull ? < In fact, I can't think of any part inside a BASIC. But the < higher clockrates are a nice thing - and maybe the z180 for < 3.0 style bankswitching. They can address the full 32bit address space (without banking) and the z380 adds a host of addressing modes not in the z80 like 32bit indirect, PC relative and stack relative with long pointers. Also MUL, DIV and a handfull of other nice instructions that would sharply speed on the math functions. Also there are 4 sets of registers compared to the dual set of the z80/z180. Allison

27 years, 6 months

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Fluke multimeters: infringement of international safety standard

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

This came round at work. I don't know if any of you have a Fluke 80 series - IMHO the Fluke 87 is still one of the best multimeters that money can buy. (I don't have that much money so I have a Fluke 29 and am thus not affected.) However, I believe electrical safety is something to take very seriously. I have received nasty shocks and nastier burns from accidentally touching the mains (yes, even the earth conductor), and the rectified mains in switch mode power supplies is even nastier. Not to mention high voltages in monitors, etc. Philip. ---------------------- Forwarded by Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen on 22/10/98 17:23 --------------------------- From: Chris Bright on 22/10/98 09:22 To: George WEDGWOOD/Westwood/PowerGen@PowerGen cc: (bcc: Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen) Subject: Fluke electrical multimeters: infringement of international safety standard Recently Fluke Corporation discovered a small dimensional shortfall within its 80 Series III digital multimeters and 787 process multimeters. This means that the meters do not comply with IEC 1010-1 which deals with double or reinforced insulation in the 1000V Overvoltage Category III rating. The problem may be solved by fitting a replacement battery cover obtainable free form Fluke. The affected range of products are: Model Serial number Manufactured Date From To From To 83 III 69810781 71200001 29 Dec 1997 7 July 1998 85 III 69810501 71200001 29 Dec 1997 7 July 1998 87 III 69910001 71200001 12 Jan 1998 7 July 1998 787 All units prior to 71200001 7 July 1998 For further information please contact the local Fluke Sales Office on Tel 01 923 216400. [NB that is a UK number local to us at Nottingham. PDB] Chris Bright Power Technology File DXHA/SAFT/ELEC/OFFC

27 years, 6 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> < I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am > < looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple > < micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna p > < a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like th > < processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I > < need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. > Wait till April first for this. <rotfl> > I don't think you were listening when we were discussing propagation > delays. To deal with 300-900Mhz clock your talking 4-6layer etch and > some really fast logic. The .33nS memory will be tough to buy. Be > prepared to dump a few DecaKilobucks into the attempt after all you'll > need a really fast logic analyser and O'scope to see what you missed. Gee Allison you are talking like an engeneer - destroying a brilliant vision just by facts :) > If you want a 32 bit z80 get a z380, it runs native z80 code, until you > switch modes then compatability works but it has a lot of gotchas. Net thing, but just 18 and 20 MHz types availabe - running as Z80 a 33 MHz Z180 might be faster (And never forget: you can't use R any longer as random number generator :). > If your doing a z80 stretch, you better think about how to access memory > or really alter the z80 fetch timing. Basic Z80 timing for say 20ns > memory would limit you to some 40-50Mhz... it would be a 5-10 MIPS machine > though. If you superpipline it and get it down to 1-2 clocks per cycle > you can double that. THe Z180 is already down to 3 cycle/instruction, and the z380 is down to 2 cycle/instr. But since the maximum clock rate of the 180 is more than 50% higher than the 280, it's the way to go. > In any case there is no way to logically stretch a > z80 without running the risk of making it software incompatable at some > point. I've seriously looked at it, still have the 2901s I was thinking > of using. I have z80/10mhz parts however and the 2901s would barely do > that. And if you try, most 10 MHz can run at 12 to 14 MHz. > FYI: z80S180s can be had into the 30+ mhz range. :) Jep and 1 Meg is still plenty of RAM when running CP/M But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data and greater over all performance. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 6 months

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