- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Will the person who enquired (a short while back) about an HP Keyboard with matching RJ-style cable... please drop me a note, privately? I have the device here ready to ship, and your e-mail with address has made that long final journey to /dev/null somehow. Sorry for the OT. John

27 years, 2 months

1
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Altair BASIC

by dogas＠leading.net

-----Original Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> Again, for the record, I think Marvin's posts are at least interesting and useful and certainly as interesting as any other report of a sale or give-away or auction. I appreciate his routine filtering of the search engine on eBay. -----Original Next Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> >All this was gathered by a few minutes searching with www.dejanews.com >and www.hotbot.com, with the string "Monte Davidoff". I know, it's >far easier to enter a message that says "I wonder what happened to >him," and wait for the oracles to whisper the answer. :-) Hmmm.... you are indeed an enigma wrapped in a riddle backwards... Heh - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 2 months

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[Fwd: Altos boxes]

by msg＠waste.org

Forwarded to list in case recipient address incorrect:

27 years, 2 months

1
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Fwd: FS/FT Firmware PROM listing - H-19

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Heath normally provided all ROM code held under their copyright to their customers, even the Z100 computer BIOS. Contact this fellow directly, not me. >X-Sender: morris(a)mail.cogent.net >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 >Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:41:07 -0800 >Reply-To: Mike Morris <morris(a)COGENT.NET> >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List <HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV> >From: Mike Morris <morris(a)COGENT.NET> >Subject: FS/FT Firmware PROM listing - H-19 >To: HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV > >Recently while doing an inventory of a silent key's files I discovered what >is apparently a original assembly code listing of the Heath H19 terminal >firmware, dated 30-May-1980, complete with cross-reference at the end. >Apparently Heath sold them. > >It appears to be offset printed from an original daisy-wheel printout. On >the front is says "H-19-1 595-2465" > >It was bound with blue vinyl with melted plastic pegs which have fallen >apart - but it is complete - I checked and every page is there. > >Make offer - including trades. > >Mike Morris WA6ILQ >mike(a)morris.com > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff HEATH >Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/

27 years, 2 months

1
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Ebay: Stuff

by dogas＠leading.net

From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> >Someone asked a while ago about the IMSAI manuals. The current bid is >$103.50! >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=59629904 I missed that someone asking about the imsai manuals. I have many of them if someone need some copying done... - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 2 months

1
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Late-model VAX available

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane <kyrrin(a)my-dejanews.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, 26 January 1999 16:58 Subject: FW: Late-model VAX available >>Does anybody have a need for a Vax 8530/ 52mb memory and console , 2- >>HSC's, 2 - TA81's, 8 - 456mb Hard Drives. Several VT320 terminals and La75 >>printers. MicroVax II, Star Coupler, Power Conditioner. Lot of ram for an 8530. Mine only has 20mb. They use a Pro350 or 380 as a console. Oh, 8530's are ECL. ie they get HOT. 456mb drives would be RA81's. Sigh. Things like this always seem to be too far away for me.... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 2 months

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CoCo3's & Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by guerney＠uq.net.au

Tony Duell said: >Talking of CoCo3's, has anyone ever seen a 50Hz PAL video model? They were sold in Australia. Mine has the following on the sticker on the base of the unit. "128L COLOR COMPUTER 3 PAL VERSION" MODEL 26-3334 Custom Manufactured in Korea for Tandy Australia. 240 V 50 Hz of course. And for those interested in Serial Numbers, this one is 1003738 and my other one is 1002641 Roger "Merch" Merchberger said: >> BTW, my CoCo3's serial # is 102404... anyone know if there are different >> serial number series for US-sold versus Canadian-sold CoCo3's? I purchased >> mine in Canada; much cheaper!

27 years, 2 months

1
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IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media)

by amirault＠epix.net

Hi, I may be interested in one of the CPU's with a keyboard. If you have any manuals I would appreciate a copy. I think that this is the same as an IBM PCJR. If I am incorrect please let me know. I collect IBM PCJR's and would like to have one from another country. Please let me know what the shipping charge is. Also please let me have a list of wanted computers as I have a Salvation Army Store about one half hour from my house. I am in the north east corner of Pennsylvania, USA. Please contact me direct email to set up shipping arrangements, my email address is > amirault(a)epix.net. Thanks, John Amirault -----Original Message----- From: Phil Guerney <guerney(a)uq.net.au> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 6:23 AM Subject: Re: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) >-----Original Message----- >From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> > >>How many know about the IBM PC-JX? It had 5.25" 720K drives! >>Never sold in the U.S., just Japan and Australia? > >Hmmm ... never sold in the US....I'll not dwell on the obvious about >collecting a load of JX systems that were used in some schools here and >selling them on e-bay ;) > >Do you US collectors want these machines? I don't collect IBM PC's, although >I did relent once and pay $A20 for a JX machine (IBM Model 5511 with 5515 >monitor and 5519 expansion unit - made in Japan and all in black with a 3.5" >drive in the main box and a 5.25" drive in the expansion box) that was in >good condition. As I suspected, not a very interesting computer to me. If >someone was prepared to foot the freight bill from Australia, I would be >prepared to sell or trade it. I also would be prepared to look out for >others and send them on. > >Same applies to real Aussie micro's like Microbees and not-so-real Aussie >items like Dick Smith branded computers (which invariably were sold under >other brand/model names in the USA). > >Trades are more interesting to me than sales - my main interest is roughly >defined as "1975-1985 home micros". It doesn't matter how much money I got >for this at auction, it wouldn't help me find a lot of stuff that seems >available to you lot at your local thrift store! > >If anybody is interested, contact me by private e-mail. Just be prepared for >at least a 3-month shipping delay, unless it is only a light item, or you >can afford a hefty air-freight bill. > >Phil >Brisbane, Australia. > > > >

27 years, 2 months

3
3
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OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jan 25, 14:16, Hans Franke wrote: > > Hans lost a "per second" (Hertzlos, I suppose ;-). > > Just a bloody German - Herzlos ! > > <ROTFL> > Hans Sorry, I couldn't resist it :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 2 months

1
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Removal from list

by pctech＠davidbowie.com

I wish to be removed from the list.How do i do so?

27 years, 2 months

1
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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by hhacker＠gte.net

Since the subject has gained so much discussion, I shall take the suggestion and produce the guide. Such an endeavor takes time, so don't expect a release too soon. Nevertheless, I am now open to taking first orders. :) :) :) As for the rule itself, I agree that ten years after last manufacture implies classic status - that is, the item is an antique. However, that requirement of time is not necessarily the most prudent for some items. In some cases, classic status might be applied to an item available only two or three years ago. Such cases might be rare but, justified by the circumstances. I suggest also that classic status might be conferred upon a measure of the relative throughput of the computing instrument at hand. That is, when the device performs at a rate of two percent or less than the performance of minimal systems sold in the marketplace (at the time of the comparison), then such a system can be termed a classic. William R. Buckley

27 years, 2 months

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FW: Late-model VAX available

by kyrrin＠my-dejanews.com

Anyone want a nice 8000 series VAXen? Looks like these folks are getting rid of one. Between the list and Dan Burrows, I figure this one could find a good home. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- From: denihawk(a)aol.com (DENIHAWK) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Vax Mainframe Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news(a)aol.com Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:39:26 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990125163926.17953.00002954(a)ng29.aol.com> Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!165.87.194.248!newsm.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:17946 Does anybody have a need for a Vax 8530/ 52mb memory and console , 2- HSC's, 2 - TA81's, 8 - 456mb Hard Drives. Several VT320 terminals and La75 printers. MicroVax II, Star Coupler, Power Conditioner. I am not having any luck with selling, donating, disposing any of these Items. Any suggestions would be appreciated. E-mail or serious inquiries may call me at (205)444-4507. Denise Hawkins Systems Manager Goldome Credit Corporation -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

27 years, 2 months

1
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Altair BASIC

by guerney＠uq.net.au

From: Andrew Davie <adavie(a)mad.scientist.com> >An interesting quote from my ALTAIR BASIC manual... >"The Software Department is at Ext. 3; and the joint authors of the ALTAIR >BASIC Interpreter, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff, will be glad >to assist you." >So, where is Monte these days? I haven't heard of him before. >A

27 years, 2 months

1
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IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media)

by amirault＠epix.net

Fred, Thank you. John Amirault 107 2nd Ave. Susquehanna, Pa. 18847 -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:38 PM Subject: Re: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) >On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, John Amirault wrote: >> Hi, >> I may be interested in one of the CPU's with a keyboard. If you have any >> manuals I would appreciate a copy. I think that this is the same as an IBM >> PCJR. If I am incorrect please let me know. > >The PC-JX is NOT PC-Jr. >Although there are a few superficial similarities, and many of the same >letters in the name, it is a different machine. Among other things, the >JX uses a 720K 5.25" drive. > > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > >

27 years, 2 months

1
0
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Radio Shack Computer Demonstrator

by guerney＠uq.net.au

Today I came across a 1982 dated 24-page booklet titled "The Radio Shack Computer Demonstrator" developed by Fred C. Matt. Section 1 was labelled "Storage Unit" and showed a series of instructions: 00 LODA,05 01 ADDA,06 02 STRA,07 ..... and further headings described registers and a comparing unit. I thought at first "Was this some sort of SBC with a monitor/assembler?" But reading on, it became obvious that this device was made out of _cardboard_ with sliding tabs for a line counter, and registers which were written to with a pencil! Has anybody managed to find/keep one of these things? Sounds a neat little souvenir from the period. And if anyone followed through the steps, they would indeed have had a good introduction to programming a microprocessor in assembly language. Would be great for kids even today - except I can't see many having the patience or interest unfortunately. Phil Brisbane, Australia

27 years, 2 months

1
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Alto II

by edick＠idcomm.com

I was at a local thrift store yesterday and spotted a couple of oddly shaped boxes with a designation indicating them to be ALTOS boxes. One has a tape drive of some sort and the other has a floppy disk drive. Does this mean anything to anyone? IF someone wants them, I could snag them and ship. I doubt they will cost much more than $10 each. Dick ---------- > From: Doug <doug(a)blinkenlights.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices > Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 8:36 PM > > On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > I don't know if you noticed or not, but the email address of the seller is > > at spies.com. For those of you who might not be aware, spies.com is one of > > the largest repositories of arcade game related materials. The guy who runs > > it seems to be very well regarded in the collector circles. > > That's the guy. He's also well regarded by Alto collectors: > http://www.spies.com/aek/xerox.html > > So, don't worry, if you don't pay him $5K, it'll still have a good home. > $5K seems like a reasonable price, BTW (assuming he doesn't have a $20K > reserve). Only 1000 or so were made. It's historic. It would be easy to > justify. Who's gonna do it?! > > Not me! I have absolutely no desire to spend $5K on the thing. And this > confuses me a little. It's near the top of my wanted list, and I can > afford it, but the prospect doesn't interest me even a little bit. For > some reason, I find the idea somewhat offensive. > > I guess it's because I think of an acquisition sort of like an "adoption". > I'm willing to house the thing, and spend a good chunk of time trying to > get it working, keep it working, and make it accessible to others. Why > should I have to pay $5K on top of that? > > $500 seems to be my limit for what I consider a reasonable acquisition > fee. Maybe that will go up as this crazy price spiral continues, but to > pay more than that, I think you really have to be in the speculative > investment mindset, and I'm not. > > -- Doug > >

27 years, 2 months

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Olivetti M20 information

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

I have one with no operating system. Don't know anything about it though. -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, 26 January 1999 11:21 Subject: Olivetti M20 information >Hi > Making a call for anyone with info on the >Olivetti M20. It was a Z8000 machine. >Dwight >

27 years, 2 months

1
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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only <>about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly <>new compared to others. Example, we wouldn't be talking about 6xxx series <>as the oldest ones are early 90s. < <Ahem, I've got one here that is stamped 89. I understood they went into <production in 88. <I have another that is stamped JAN 1990. I suggest that these are "classic We talking about MicroVAX, MicroVAX-6000 or MV3100 series? Many of those models were introduced in the late 80s were still in production years later(or a version/flavor was). <machines in their own right anyway, age notwithstanding. However I would <accept the consensus of the list members on the legitimacy of this. How <say you? For me they are. Allison

27 years, 2 months

2
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The Computer Journal

by dogas＠leading.net

David Greelish, the publisher of Historically Brewed has just recently relocated for a new job to North Carolina (I think) and is probably taking some time to get his feet planted again.... I'll give him a buzz and see what the status of HB is. Mike:dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. <jrkeys(a)concentric.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 7:48 PM Subject: RE: The Computer Journal >Historically Brewed was to have started back up late last year but I have >yet receive one issue from them and no response to e-mails for a refund. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu >> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Sam Ismail >> Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 11:38 AM >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: Re:The Computer Journal >> >> >> On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: >> >> > Is The Computer Journal still in business? Their web site is >> still up, but I >> > cannot tell when it was last updated. I subscribed last July and haven't >> > yet received any issues. (In October they were working on the next one, >> > #82...) That is about my threshold for non delivery, I >> > wrote and sent email asking for a refund and have gotten no response. >> >> They've been busy. I subscribed over a year ago and have gotten only a >> few issues of my subscription. Since I know they're good guys and would >> never intentionally screw anyone I am not bitching about it, but I >> certainly do understand your plight. Keep trying, they are definitely >> still around, just not responding. >> >> > Speaking of classic computer magazines, does anyone get >> Historically Brewed? >> >> As far as I know this wasn't being published anymore(?) >> >> Sellam Alternate e-mail: >> dastar(a)siconic.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> Always being hassled by the man. >> >> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 01/15/99] >> >> > >

27 years, 2 months

1
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PDP-8 prices

by dogas＠leading.net

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >Computer collecting was a lot more fun when you could grab a random >machine for a few pounds/dollars, take it home and enjoy it. I agree. That's why I hate the commercialization now occuring in this hobby. I't just about gaurantees that there will be few newcomers into the hobby that can amass the bit piles many of us own and love to explore. Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 2 months

4
3
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FW: S-100 Boards

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Anybody help this guy out? -----Original Message----- From: Lee P. Adams [mailto:adamsl@letu.edu] Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: S-100 Boards Hi, I am a Senior Computer Science & Engineering student at LeTourneau Univ, in Longview, TX and for my Senior Design we have to design a SBC (single board computer), not a big deal. Now here is the trick the school has an old system that uses the S-100 type interface boards and they don't have anymore. Do you have any that you would part with/ Thakns in advance. Lee P. Adams

27 years, 2 months

1
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PC/XT 512K RAM card

by rhblake＠bigfoot.com

Anyone have need for a fully populated 512k 8 bit RAM card, pulled from a fully working XT that had a 256k motherboard in it? Make a fair offer and remember that there will be a $3.25 or so shipping fee by USPS on it, should be able to go priority as cheaply as regular parcel post. USA and APO/FPO only please. First come first serve, I only have the one.

27 years, 2 months

1
0
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hardware

by edick＠idcomm.com

These are relatively small boxes, i.e. on the order of the AT&T 6300's, but not purely rectangular in front profile. They are brown in color (just a guess, as I'm "chromatically challenged" and somewhat larger than the AT&T box. By the way, it seems to me that we (you and I ) were discussing ( via email ) the transfer of a number of S-100 components I was planning to discard. I was pretty sick back then, about a year ago, but now that the MD is on top of what's wrong I'm more or less functional again. You were, ( I believe ) interested in various S-100 video boards I have. One of them is a Microangelo, but was hacked by a friend and later given to me. I'd be happy to take up that discussion again, if you're interested. As before, all I want is the cost of packaging and shipping. I've had these for a long time and don't use them and, in many cases, never have. Last summer I donated ten or a dozen terminals and nearly as many daisywheel printers to the local thrift store (a charitable organization) just to take the writeoffs. I paid lots of $$$ for some of this stuff and don't just want to toss it, so, I'm looking for a "good" home. regards, Dick ---------- > From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Alto II > Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:03 PM > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > If you can give me some guidance as to numbers, etc of the devices you're > > after, or for that matter, what you don't want, I'll make sure you don't > > end up with something you don't want. > > > > I have to go back there because my better half likes to visit the place and > > hasn't finished her search. > > Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was a waste of time! Far from it. The > Altos boxes are neat. They're just not exciting as an S-100 box (which at > first glance you would think they are, but they aren't). > > I'm sure there's someone interested in adding these computers to their > collection (I have 2 or 3 myself) but the shipping charges on them would > be so extreme that most people would decline. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99]

27 years, 2 months

1
0
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Alto II

by edick＠idcomm.com

If you can give me some guidance as to numbers, etc of the devices you're after, or for that matter, what you don't want, I'll make sure you don't end up with something you don't want. I have to go back there because my better half likes to visit the place and hasn't finished her search. Dick ---------- > From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Alto II > Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 10:42 AM > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I was at a local thrift store yesterday and spotted a couple of oddly > > shaped boxes with a designation indicating them to be ALTOS boxes. One has > > a tape drive of some sort and the other has a floppy disk drive. Does this > > mean anything to anyone? IF someone wants them, I could snag them and > > ship. I doubt they will cost much more than $10 each. > > They are multi-user CP/M (or MP/M) machines circa 1982-1986, mentioned > here from time to time (we really need a comprehensive database that > describes these machines so that people can reference the database before > posting about the same stuff over and over). Having nothing to do with an > Alto, they are worth anywhere from free to whatever someone would be > willing to pay (which may surprise/shock you). > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99]

27 years, 2 months

2
1
0 0

Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by kurtkilg＠geocities.com

On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's > just an indisputable fact. :-) How about a VAX emulating a PC? > 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off > in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is > not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, > there will be other places to discuss it.) How do you define 'common'? What percent of the population must use it? What if it's uncommon in my city and common in yours? > 6. Do I really need to add "IMHO" here? :-) No. If you don't add one, I won't add one.

27 years, 2 months

5
5
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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 09:35 AM 1/25/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: > >But unless you have a wireless portable that you don't mind hauling around >with you, a book is more convenient to take on your hunting trips for >quick reference. Any portable device with a display and storage abilities (on floppy or RAM) of a meg or so could easily contain such a web page, as text. Even a book won't beat a brain when it comes to being able to spot a significant device hidden in a pile of other junk. That, after all, is what each of us has trained our brain to do when on expedition to an auction or a warehouse. - John

27 years, 2 months

2
1
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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

] On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Doug <doug(a)blinkenlights.com> wrote: ] Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. ] ] On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Buck Savage wrote: ... snippage ... ] ] A "universal" rating/certification system, similar to the way coins are ] graded, would be ideal. But I don't think you'll ever get this group to ] agree on anything -- just do it! (And then sell a book.) ] ] Forget the word "classic". A guide that gives production numbers, ] variations, years, criteria to judge condition, price, etc. would be cool ] -- I'd buy one, and I'd buy a new copy every year as you updated prices ] and other info. ] ] Start with Hans P's list of machines (and pay him royalties). ] ] -- Doug I don't believe it. *THIS*, coming from the same guy that blew his stack over his secret bargain bid getting exposed? Which do you want, well-known (and high) dollar-tags attached to everything, or obscurity and bargains? You can't have both. We have a choice between an entrenched mainstream collector's marketplace, with standard price guides, and with all the neat stuff ending up in investors' display cases, off-limits to mere hobbyists; or an unrecognized garage-sale niche marketplace, with dispute as to the value of anything, but with many of these machines clanking away in our basements. It seems we have no real choice about it, we will eventually end up with the former. But there is no need to hurry it. Especially if you are one to bitch when one of your bargain-basement bids get exposed and immediately out-bid. Bill.

27 years, 2 months

4
3
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FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>>Ouch!. 8" disks are difficult to find, 5.25" disks are difficult to find >>(what about 1.2 Mbyte ones - are they still available?), 3" disks are >>impossible to find. I'd better start hoarding them... > > You can still buy 8", 5.25" HD and 3" disks. Trouble is, they may be *Really* > expensive; I noticed on the Imation web site a couple of months ago that (from > memory) a box of 8" disks was over US$100. > > 3" disks are still available new from at least one place in the UK, though they > are over 2 pounds each. This sounds useful. Do you have any more information (like the URL of the Imation web site) please? Philip.

27 years, 2 months

1
0
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Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that th <original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine... Uzi in a 64k machine required 32k of it for the kernel and the rest for apps. It was a full swaping scheme so hard disk for similar was a must have. Banking/mmu made it more palateable as you could have the kernel in it's own space. IT was not uncommon if you could afford the cost (in late 81 it was about $159 for 64k) of ram to have large banked memory on s100 in the early 80s. I was running a multi z80 system then with 256k. Yes, UZI unix, see WWW.psyber.com/~tcj as they have a page on it. IT was z80 FYI and has been ported to z180 and z280. Allison

27 years, 2 months

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OT: iMAC adapters

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Yesterday someone posted about a company that makes printer adapters for the iMAC. This morning I found a site that makes adapters to let you use ABD, USB and serial devices for the iMAC. "http://www.griffintechnology.com/" Joe

27 years, 2 months

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FW: More FREE goodies in NY

by kyrrin＠my-dejanews.com

OK, this may be the same guy. Now they say they're willing to ship. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- From: cvt(a)sprynet.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: Free in NYC: VAXstation and DECstation Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:00:38 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 14 Message-ID: <78hfc3$9o2$1(a)nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.154.78.10 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 25 10:00:38 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x5.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.154.78.10 Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!207.33.1.6!news.he.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.dec:5896 A VAXstation 3100 (with color monitor and VMS manual set) and a DECstation 3100 (also with color monitor) available in New York City. Both machines work. A TK-50 drive is also available for either of these. The VMS manuals are also available separately. The machines may be picked up -- or will be shipped if recipient makes the necessary arrangements (we will pack them in their original cartons). For more information, call 212 662-0263. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

27 years, 2 months

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ten year rule.

by joe＠barrera.org

>Let us not forget the *amazing* diversity of form in the PC market in the >last 10 years! I have laptops, pen-based machines, hermetically sealed >touchscreen boxes, handhelds, luggables, even credit card PCs that are >distinctly classics and generally less than even 10 years olds. I nominate the HP 200LX as a definite classic. It's a handheld XT clone that has a very loyal following, and that is still being made (despite HP's support of Windows CE which *theoretically* is supposed to make handheld DOS machines obsolete...) - Joe

27 years, 2 months

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FW: FREE VAXStation 3100, New York Area

by kyrrin＠my-dejanews.com

Too far for me, perhaps someone else can make it? -=-=- <snip> -=-=- From: hudson17(a)my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Free VAXstation in New York Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:47:13 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 9 Message-ID: <78hej0$9aa$1(a)nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.154.78.10 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 25 08:48:23 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x5.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.154.78.10 Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!207.33.1.6!news.he.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:17888 Free VAXstation 3100 available in New York City. Color monitor, TK-50. Works. Also available VMS 5.x full manual set. Must be picked up before 1/31. Respond via e-mail or call 212 662-0263. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

27 years, 2 months

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Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jan 21, 21:07, Sam Ismail wrote: > Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Megan wrote: > > > I think the problem with '1.44 Mb' is that IBM chose to refer to > > the exact number of bytes without using the power-of-two term > > properly. > > > > For example... on pdp-11s, the virtual address space is always > > referred to as 64 Kb... but the actual max (byte) address is > > 65535. If we were to follow what it appears IBM did, we would > > have been referring to 65.5 Kb. > > No, a megabyte is not a power of two number. A megabyte = 1,000,000 > bytes. So 1.44 megabytes = 1.44 million bytes = roughly 1,440,000 bytes. > > So 1.44MB disk drive is not a misnomer. As Megan pointed out, the maths is wrong. A "1.44MB" disk has 80 cylinders, two sides, 18 sectors per track, sector size 512 bytes. 80 * 2 * 18 * 512 = 80 * 18 * 1024 = 1440KB That's where the "1.44" number comes from. And a Megabyte is normally held to be 1024 * 1024 (megabyte would, I agree, be different, 1000 * 1000). But "1.44MB" refers to 1.44 * 1000 * 1024, which is a ridiculous way to count. 1440KB = 1.406MB. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 2 months

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OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Really? The meter is defined (certain frequency of light from a certain >> element for so many waves yada yada). Sea level is defined (don't know the >> SI unit, but 780 millibars of pressure). Celcius is defined (0 is freezing >> point of pure water at sea level, 100 boiling point of pure water at sea >> level) and that's all you need to define the gram: one cubic centimeter of >> water at 4C at sea level. That also gets you volume (liters). >> > I thought length, mass (Kilogram), and time (seconds) were picked as the > basic SI units, and others, like temperature, were "secondary". For > electromagnetics, > a 4'th unit was required, sometimes an ampere (which can be defined from > mechanical variables), sometimes charge. > -Dave In 1902, when the system was proposed, the base units were indeed metre, kilogram and second. The IEC recommended that the ampere be added as the fourth unit, and this was finally standardised in 1948. SI now has seven base units: Metre, Kilogram, Second, Ampere, Kelvin, Mole and Candela (normally used without initial capitals btw). There are two supplementary units, the radian and the steradian. All other units are derived from these. Philip.

27 years, 2 months

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OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jan 22, 19:16, Hans Franke wrote: > Subject: Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) > Excuse me if I interupt, but you are talking about measuring > a specific voltage. But thats completly independant from the > definition. Only if you want to define Volt based on some > specific reproduceable effect - but thats not necesaty. To > get all electrical units you just need the 7 basic SI units > (Length, Weight, Time, Current, Temperature, Brightnes (?) > and Mol (sorry, no idea how to translate Stoffmasse)) and length metre m mass kilogram kg time second s electric current ampere A thermodynamic temperature kelvin K luminous intensity candela cd amount of substance mole mol > only one is an electric unit (the Ampere). And only these > 7 units have to be defined on specific, reproducable effects. > 1V is defined as 1 kg m^2 / A s^2. As Hans implies, all other units are derived from these seven (and the two angular measures). But the volt is defined as kg m^2 / (A s^3) -- Hans lost a "per second" (Hertzlos, I suppose ;-). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 2 months

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WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?

by cswiger＠wilma.widomaker.com

Spotted this in a Linuxtoday.com article on the latest linux kernel: "On somewhat of a tangent, there is continuing work to support a subset of the Linux kernel on 8086, 8088, 80186, and 80286 machines. This project will never integrate itself with Linux-proper but will provide an alternative Linux-subset operating system for these machines. " Hmmm, I do have *a* 'C' compiler running on one of those Compaq luggables... Chuck cswiger(a)widomaker.com

27 years, 2 months

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FYI: scam followup

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Hi folks, Recently we were discussing a Russian source of old radios and old computers. It was prompted by a posting to ClassicCmp from a Russian site ("The Old Radios Trade <oldradios(a)radiolink.net>") with a title "Old Radios" (Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:08:36 +0300.) Check the CC archives if you want as it's not needed to post here. I politely wrote back saying this was a forum for old computers upon which I got a quick reply stating (basicly) they could get us any computer we desired. See "Fwd: Re: Old Radios" (Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:56:54 -0500.) Most of us I hope, figured this is a scam and stayed away. Just recently, one of our members had written here indicating they were interested in feedback on these characters. Well, on the newsgroup rec.antiques.radio+phono there is some feedback. DejaNews should have the thread "WARNING-RUSSIAN RADIO TRADING FRAUD!!!" >from 15 Jan. Apparently some folks got hitup for some bucks and got no radios. Partial quote from one of the postings: >This is a cautionary post to warn you all about an apparently >unscrupulous dealer in Russian collectables, including antique radios. >He sends letters by E-mail, soliciting business, under the trade name of >RadioTrade, or The Old Radio Trader, trading under the name, currently, >of either >Oleg Tikhonov, or Walentin Mihaylin. He is offering to sell several Red >Star radios, as well as other portables, and possibly a wooden Russian >table set called Belarus 53. He sends E-mail originating from Kaluga, a >city near Moscow. The scam is that he will have funds sent to him, and >they will either be lost in transit, or sent back to you as a refund, >and then have them lost in transit, when in reality, an empty envelope >will be sent to you as a registered packet. I have been personally >ripped off of a fair sum of money, and he has attempted to arrange I guess those folks were a bit more interested in scoring a Russian radio than in understanding what they should have previously heard in the major news media about the latest Russian scams coming along nowadays. Or, they simply lacked common sense to judge this as "Too good to be true". Enough said on this. Just be aware of it if you are looking for Russian or other ex-Soviet block machines. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/

27 years, 2 months

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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, 25 January 1999 9:44 Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. ><5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off >< in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is >< not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, >< there will be other places to discuss it.) > >Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only >about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly >new compared to others. Example, we wouldn't be talking about 6xxx series >as the oldest ones are early 90s. Ahem, I've got one here that is stamped 89. I understood they went into production in 88. I have another that is stamped JAN 1990. I suggest that these are "classic" machines in their own right anyway, age notwithstanding. However I would accept the consensus of the list members on the legitimacy of this. How say you? >The keys are OLDness, UNIQUEness and desireability. I'm sure there are >technical aspects that would qualify like machines with unusual word >length or the like but, they should be 80s or earlier in introduction >or common use. > >So long as it's related to the collecting, preserving and discussion >centered around older machines there is little conflict. Agree totally. As I said earlier, the 10 year bit should be a guide, not a lockout. All of this is IMHO only, of course..... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 2 months

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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jan 25, 1:32, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's > > > just an indisputable fact. :-) > > > > How about a VAX emulating a PC? > > Or more seriously an Acorn Archimedes running the PC-emulator. The > Archimedes is undoubtedly a classic (or will be as the machines get to 10 > years old). It was the first (popular?) desktop system to use a RISC > processor. The first Archimedes 310 was sold in July 1988. It might just qualify as the first desktop machine using a RISC processor, though there's not a whole lot of difference between that and a small deskside machine. Machines using MIPS chips, the Clipper, and the IBM RT were around first, but they were at least an order of magnitude more expensive. The Archimedes real claim is that it was the first mass-market RISC-based computer. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 2 months

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DELQA Switch Settings

by mbg＠world.std.com

>It's looking like there is something with the way I ran a SYSGEN a few >days ago. It turns out that I can't even boot the SJ monitor, and the FB >monitor won't let me install the EQ driver. However, the XM monitor >which I didn't even touch will let me install the EQX driver. I don't know the restrictions for EQ (under TSX, I suppose), but having been the designer and implementer of the ethernet drivers under RT-11, I can tell you that they won't run under SJ and FB. By the time we started working on Ethernet, the target system for most installations was XM. When I started working on the design for the ethernet drivers, there were several factors which guided the decision to be XM-only: 1) It was procedural to add and remove buffer descriptors from the ring -- you had to ensure that the adapter would not use one while the driver was working on it 2) Receive buffers had to essentially always be available or performance would have been abyssmal. 3) There was a recommended minimum number of receive buffers, or again, performance would suffer. 4) Maximum sized receive buffers were required or we would have had to support buffer chaining (which would have added to the size and complexity of the driver code, and as anyone familiar with RT knows, low memory is at a premium -- and moving them to high memory was not available under SB/FB) So, since we had to have a minimum of 6 receive buffers, at the maximum size (1600 bytes), that would have been just over 9kbytes, and we haven't even added the space for the code. This was unacceptable for SB/FB. It was decided that they would be supported under XM only. >I think my next step is to either redo the SYSGEN on the SJ and FB >monitors, or to copy over the XM versions of the TCP/IP software. I'll >probably copy over the XM versions first. Unfortunatly we've got a >downtime at work tonite, so I've got to go into work in the next hour and >most likely won't be able to try this tonite :^( I don't think you have to do this... TSX doesn't use the exact same xx.SYS drivers that SB/FB use, it uses rebuilt ones with a file type of .TSX So, as long as your TSX sysgen includes the driver, it should be available... And remember, TSX essentially takes over the machine, kicking the former OS (RT-11 SJ) out of memory... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 2 months

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Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: <> Unix didn't always have the idea of virtual memory. See Minix for an <> example of that also V4 and maybe V5 unix didn't either. < <I would expect that the original PDP7 that ran UNIX didn't have VM... No it didn't. I'm fairly certain that VM didn't appear until V7 on pdp-11 or maybe later. The fact of the matter is there have been 8bit unix impmentations. The idea that there is only 64KB is just means more reliance on things like overlays or paging/swapping. Also many of the mid 80s 6809 and z80 system had some kind of MMU to support large address spaces. The Z180 was good for 1mb with it's MMU and most of the paging schemes for s100 permitted anyware from 512k to 16mb. the late z280 allowed 16mb space using a paged MMU and added I&D space along with user/system spaces. The latter I&D space (instruction and data spaces) were features only found on the upper models of PDP-11 (11/44,11/45,11/60 and 11/70 and the J11 chip based systems 11/73 and 11/83). With I&D space and user/system space VM was supportable. Allison

27 years, 2 months

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OT: Y0K problem??

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

> >(Translated from Latin scroll dated 2 BC) > >Dear Cassius: > >Are you still working on the Y zero K problem? This change from BC to AD is giving us a lot of headaches and we haven't much time left. I don't know how people will cope with working the wrong way around. Having been working happily downwards forever, now we have to start thinking upwards. You would think that someone would have thought of it earlier and not left it to us to sort it all out at this last minute. > >I spoke to Caesar the other evening. He was livid that Julius hadn't done something about it when he was sorting out the calendar. He said he could see why Brutus turned nasty. We called in Consultus, but he simply said that continuing downwards using minus BC won't work and as usual charged a fortune for doing nothing useful. Surely, we will not have to throw out all our hardware and start again? Macrohard will make yet another fortune out of this I suppose. > >The money lenders are paranoid of course! They have been told that all usury rates will invert and they will have to pay their clients to take out loans. Its an ill wind.... > >As for myself, I just can't see the sand in an hourglass flowing upwards. We have heard that there are three wise men in the East who have been working on the problem, but unfortunately they won't arrive until it's all over. > >I have heard that there are plans to stable all horses at midnight at the turn of the year as there are fears that they will stop and try to un backwards, causing immense damage to chariots and possible loss of life. Some say the world will cease to exist at the moment of transition. Anyway, we are still continuing to work on this blasted Y zero K problem. I will send a parchment to you if anything further develops. > >If you have any ideas please let me know. > >Plutonius > > >

27 years, 2 months

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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by dburrows＠netpath.net

We also need to keep in mind that the PDP11/93 was available new until approx. 1 year ago. Dan

27 years, 2 months

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Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<IIRC, adding virtual memory support to UNIX was the project goal for the <CSRG at Berkeley. That was what BSD Unix was all about, and it was why the <kernel image was /vmunix vs. the /unix which was the prior kernel image nam <--Chuck That also answers the part of the question of what/why is BSD significant? Allison

27 years, 2 months

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mac tool

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

Does anyone know where I can get the tool you need to use to crack open teh case of an old MacIntosh? I seem to recall that in addition to special torx tools, probably one with an extra long shaft, that you needed something to pop the case open... I'd like to upgrade the tiny hard drive in a mac se, and maybe in a mac plus 1 Meg, to use a 250 meg scsi drive. Any idea if these units will run system 7? -Lawrence LeMay

27 years, 2 months

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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by KFergason＠aol.com

> > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's > > just an indisputable fact. :-) > I disagree. (with both) Interesting, maybe not. but the original PC and Mac are both classic. I could agree that very few types of PC (or Mac's) were/are classics. My opinion: The original PC, AT, are classics. A Packard Bell 286 or the Commodore Colt is not. The Mac 128 and Macintosh II are classics. The Plus, SE, etc, are just more usable. IMHO, Kelly

27 years, 2 months

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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<1. Ten years is just a guideline. If something is only 9 years old, < I won't much mind hearing about it. I might even like it. But if I happen to like that. < it is only two or three years old, there must be a surviving < users-group or something. Go find it, or start your own, but please < don't clutter up my mailbox with it. Generally PCs with 486 or Win3.1 and later are not discussion fodder for here, too new and current. <2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's < just an indisputable fact. :-) I draw a line based on two things early 386 or older and uniqueness. There are many clones but a few were very unique and interesting of themselves. An example is the Leading Edge Model D I have or the Kaypro ProPC both Xt class and a bit different. <5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off < in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is < not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, < there will be other places to discuss it.) Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly new compared to others. Example, we wouldn't be talking about 6xxx series as the oldest ones are early 90s. However BA123 based Microvaxen introduced in the 80s were still made in the early 90s and are able to run current version of the OS. They are old enough to be of interest. Another example is the DECMATE-III sold up to the early 90s but they are related too. Why, they run OS/278 and WPS both legacy software. The keys are OLDness, UNIQUEness and desireability. I'm sure there are technical aspects that would qualify like machines with unusual word length or the like but, they should be 80s or earlier in introduction or common use. So long as it's related to the collecting, preserving and discussion centered around older machines there is little conflict. Just my small cash investment in opinion. Allison

27 years, 2 months

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ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by manney＠hmcltd.net

>THAT is something that we are all more likely to agree with! If IBM ran >a doughnut shop, how many WOULD be in a dozen?? Not only that, what would a doughnut look like? They'd redesign that, too. And make in incompatible with existing doughnut boxes.

27 years, 2 months

2
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classic printer on an iMac

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

Hi all. Just thought I'd let you know about a cool product I've found. My father, who up until this time has been running various apple2 computers, (which is how I got into classic computers as a hobby, by the way) just acquired an iMac. All is well and good except he wants to run his Sears Epson fx85-alike from it. And as I discovered, the official Epson USB-Parallel adapter doesn't do anything that far back. So whilst at CompUSA last night I happened across InfoWave's PowerPrint USB - Parallel adapter. After some checking to see if they claimed to support old Epson 9pins, I bought it. Plugged it into the USB port on my wife's mac, asked her to load the software, plugged it into my own Epson LX800 - which uses the same driver - and it printed perfectly. It's a bit of a mess to UNINSTALL, if you don't have extention management loaded, but my wife is a mac power user and eventually got things cleaned up. It's not cheap, - about a hundred bucks US - but even more than classic computers, classic printers don't wear out, and with this package there's no need to replace them just because you got an iMac. Their web page is at www.infowave.com, and it lists what printers the software, PowerPrint, supports. Apparently they also make a Mac-serial to parallel adapter, and the USB version is just ported over from the software from that. -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 2 months

2
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MAC-8 ????

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I found this in a news-group. I've never heard of a MAC-8 before. The Bell Labs Technical Journal, Autumn 1997, p53 states: The first microprocessor designed at Bell Labs was the Mac-8, a general purpose 8-bit micro- processor announced February 17, 1977. The Mac-8 was designed in 5-micron CMOS, requiring 7,500 transistors in an area of 32,45 mm2. It was packaged in a 40-pin dual inline package and ran at 3 mHz, providing 0.2 million instructions per sec- ond (MIPS) in performance. Long ago and far, far away in another lifetime; I somehow acquired a tube of these chips. I've always wanted to get a minimal system going built around this CPU. However I have NO DATA WHATEVER on them. Does anyone, anywhere reading this have the necessary hardware/software tech data to allow me to build and program a small system built around a Mac-8 ????????

27 years, 2 months

2
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Altair Registry

by jpl15＠netcom.com

With the current foment and debate concerning the mechanics of free-market capitalism as applied to Our Hobby.. this is prolly on-topic. It has been suggest to me (privately) that I have reacted to David Freibrun's offer of a central Altair registry in a bitter and unfriendly way. Such was not my intent, though Freudians are undoubtedly nodding their heads sagely right now saying "JaJa, he only sinks he means dat.." For the *tone* of my message, I truly apologize. For the *content* of my message, I reiterate, a little more calmly, that I have no intrinsic problem with a centrally-maintained database of who gots what where. BUT... tied in to some of the concerns Doug has/is raising [not that I agree with all of it, Doug... :) ] I am really leery of providing personal info on a rare and perhaps desirably valuable item in my possesion.. which, in the case of my Altair, is not for sale or trade, and I'd rather it not be stolen, either. That's all I tried to say, and I guess I got huffy in the process. If such a list is set up and maintained well and seems trustworthy, I have no problem with listing my gear. David, I apologise if I offended you personally... again it was not my intent. Cheerz John

27 years, 2 months

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Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers?

by todd.osborne＠barnstormer-software.com

Anyone know where I can find a Gorilla Banana printer? I have searched all the "normal" channels. These things were so popular in the early 80's, I can't believe they have all disappeared. Thanks, -------------------------------------------------------- Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne(a)fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne(a)barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "The timid die just like the daring, and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" - Michael Longcor

27 years, 2 months

8
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Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well . . . CP/M "looked a lot like" the old OS/8, yet it wasn't. I guess it depends on what your goal is. With the CP/M, it was having a console protocol which was already understood by any unemployed DEC programmer so they could be put to work on the 8-bit micros. Because it was already a defined quantity, it didn't have to be too thoroughly documented, either. I don't know about OS-9. I never saw it on a 6809 though I did see it running on a 68008, which is quite a bit more processor. It didn't look too much like *NIX either.l Dick ---------- > From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 9:43 PM > > > <This notion of cooking up or breathing new life into an old 8-bit model to > <run *NIX is probably a mite more than has been considered for one reason. > <*NIX tends to want to use virtual memory, without which many systems would > <quickly choke. The old CPM-capables don't support VM. A good reason for > <this is probably the lack of performance. > > Unix didn't always have the idea of virtual memory. See Minix for an > example of that also V4 and maybe V5 unix didn't either. > > Also It's been done! UZI uses the total swaping model, IE: processes are > swaped out of core to make room for others. > > Allison

27 years, 2 months

1
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IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media)

by guerney＠uq.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> >How many know about the IBM PC-JX? It had 5.25" 720K drives! >Never sold in the U.S., just Japan and Australia? Hmmm ... never sold in the US....I'll not dwell on the obvious about collecting a load of JX systems that were used in some schools here and selling them on e-bay ;) Do you US collectors want these machines? I don't collect IBM PC's, although I did relent once and pay $A20 for a JX machine (IBM Model 5511 with 5515 monitor and 5519 expansion unit - made in Japan and all in black with a 3.5" drive in the main box and a 5.25" drive in the expansion box) that was in good condition. As I suspected, not a very interesting computer to me. If someone was prepared to foot the freight bill from Australia, I would be prepared to sell or trade it. I also would be prepared to look out for others and send them on. Same applies to real Aussie micro's like Microbees and not-so-real Aussie items like Dick Smith branded computers (which invariably were sold under other brand/model names in the USA). Trades are more interesting to me than sales - my main interest is roughly defined as "1975-1985 home micros". It doesn't matter how much money I got for this at auction, it wouldn't help me find a lot of stuff that seems available to you lot at your local thrift store! If anybody is interested, contact me by private e-mail. Just be prepared for at least a 3-month shipping delay, unless it is only a light item, or you can afford a hefty air-freight bill. Phil Brisbane, Australia.

27 years, 2 months

1
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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by roblwill＠usaor.net

How about no IBM PC's above the 5170? -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Doug <doug(a)blinkenlights.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. >On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > >> 4. Simply having origins in something that is classic does not make a >> thing classic. Otherwise *everything* would be classic. > >Here's the dictionary definition of "classic" that I think most of us mean >when we use the word in the context of this list: > > Having lasting significance or worth; enduring. > >The problem is that "significance" and "worth" are personal judgement >calls. I really think it's futile to try to define acceptable criteria. >How about defining it this way: > > Discussions related to machines no longer supported by their > manufacturers, with the exception of old IBM PCs, Macs, and their > clones. > >-- Doug > >

27 years, 2 months

2
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E-pay: Kaypro 2X with software and printer

by rhblake＠bigfoot.com

Kaypro 2X system with software, cables, daisy wheel printer http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=59787635

27 years, 2 months

1
0
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Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]

by edick＠idcomm.com

This notion of cooking up or breathing new life into an old 8-bit model to run *NIX is probably a mite more than has been considered for one reason. *NIX tends to want to use virtual memory, without which many systems would quickly choke. The old CPM-capables don't support VM. A good reason for this is probably the lack of performance. regards, Dick ---------- > From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 11:44 AM > > > Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the > > original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine... > > The problem with any multi-tasking or multi-user system on a Z80 is that > there is no easy way to write position-independant code. There is no > relative call and no relative loads/stores (both the PDP11 and the 6809 > have them). There are workarounds (either you use RST instructions to > simulate the relative call, etc or you relocate the task when you load > it), but they make life a little harder. > > -tony

27 years, 2 months

3
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Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<This notion of cooking up or breathing new life into an old 8-bit model to <run *NIX is probably a mite more than has been considered for one reason. <*NIX tends to want to use virtual memory, without which many systems would <quickly choke. The old CPM-capables don't support VM. A good reason for <this is probably the lack of performance. Unix didn't always have the idea of virtual memory. See Minix for an example of that also V4 and maybe V5 unix didn't either. Also It's been done! UZI uses the total swaping model, IE: processes are swaped out of core to make room for others. Allison

27 years, 2 months

1
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Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Has it ever been tried on a TRS-80 Model 4? The hardware meets the above <requirements... Unknown. Porting uzi is a bit of a task as the user has to supply the low level drivers for their system. Allison

27 years, 2 months

1
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FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by mark_k＠iname.com

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 Tony Duell wrote: >Ouch!. 8" disks are difficult to find, 5.25" disks are difficult to find >(what about 1.2 Mbyte ones - are they still available?), 3" disks are >impossible to find. I'd better start hoarding them... You can still buy 8", 5.25" HD and 3" disks. Trouble is, they may be *Really* expensive; I noticed on the Imation web site a couple of months ago that (from memory) a box of 8" disks was over US$100. 3" disks are still available new from at least one place in the UK, though they are over 2 pounds each. -- Mark

27 years, 2 months

4
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Altair Collectors Registry

by davidfreibrun＠home.com

I'm am trying to perserve history and keep people informed by building this registry. It is completely voluntary. I'm sorry you are so bitter. davidfreibrun(a)home.com http://altaircomputers.org -----Original Message----- From: John Lawson <jpl15(a)netcom.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 1:29 AM Subject: Re: Altair Collectors Registry > > So... let me get this straight... you want every one to >*register* their Altairs with .....you??? For what, so you can get >a "hit list" together for a little second story work? So you can >spam-barrage members with Auction Solicitations? > > Aren't you the same individual trying to start the "Altair Owner's >Club" on one of those idiotic Yahoo 'conferences' or whatever they >call them.... and trying to get the List Admin to give you access >to the Archive so you can harvest names...??? > > OTOH, maybe my Curmudgeon Index is a little high today.. > > And, oh yes... thanks once again for shovelling a shit-load of >HTML crap into a plain-text based mailing list. > > > > Cheerz > >John

27 years, 2 months

2
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Altair Collectors Registry

by davidfreibrun＠home.com

Altair Collectors Registry http://altaircomputers.org/registrymodel.html Model: 680 Registered: 1 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800 Assembled Registered: 4 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800 Kit Registered: 12 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800b Registered: 5 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800b(sm) Registered: 1 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800b(t) Registered: 4 ------------------------------------- Model: Attache Registered: None If your model is not on the registry, let me know so I can update the list. Of course your privacy will be respected if you don't want your name published. Altair Computer Collectors davidfreibrun(a)home.com http://altaircomputers.org

27 years, 2 months

2
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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

I personally feel the 10 year "rule" is useful as a guide, however, I also consider that there are several machines that rightly qualify as "Classic Computers" that are less than 10 years old. There is a particular "grey" area in that a particular machine might span the period. I suppose logically, we should look at when a particular box was FIRST made. I have 2 Vax 6000's here (which I propose to the list are a "Classic" regardless of age") one is 89 manufacture and therefore (just) 10 years old. The other is a 1990 build. Microvaxen have been around for a fair while now, but I am given to understand they are still orderable, new, from Digital. IMHO, I would also class ANY Microvax as a "Classic" regardless of age. In fairness to all, it's unlikely that we want to see extensive discussions of the vagaries of Pentium II's discussed here (for some years at least!) but I am confident that the 10 year rule is meant to guide us, not shackle us to a time frame. i.e. IF you have a machine that is less than that age, or you wish to discuss it on the list, and IF you consider it to be a classic in it's own right, then I suggest it be put to the list. IF the consensus of list members is that it should be classed as a classic, then so be it. Just my 2c worth. Your opinions and/or mileage may vary. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 2 months

2
1
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ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers

by ss＠allegro.com

Date sent: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:24:49 -0800 Subject: Re: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers From: healyzh(a)aracnet.com To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Jeez, even with 5 computers he probably got them for about that NEW back in > about '82! I wonder if that one place is still selling unmade kits? Yes...I bought two in December, for about $25 to $35 each (forgot exact amount). SS

27 years, 2 months

1
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DELQA Switch Settings

by dburrows＠netpath.net

SW1 closed = CSR 17774440 default SW1 open= CSR 17774460 SW2 reserved SW3 mode * SW4 option * SW5 reserved Default = all closed *remote boot and sanity timer - call me for these as my right hand is healing and typing is difficult. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 12:05 AM Subject: DELQA Switch Settings >OK, I'm almost ready to downgrade my PDP-11/73 to a DEQNA since I've got >plenty of Doc's for it :^) > >Does anyone have the switch settings for DELQA ethernet card such as they are? > >BTW, for a PDP-11 is there any real difference in the two cards? > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >

27 years, 2 months

2
1
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Linux and 8" diskettes?

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

I've been thinking about trying to use my Microtech 8" drive unit, which is attached to a fairly standard FDC, to read IBM 3740-format (Sys/23, Sys/36, Displaywriter, etc.) diskettes from Linux. I did some reading on 'fdutils' and found one brief mention of 8" diskettes, but nothing really useful, for obvious reasons I guess. Has anyone tried this or anything like it on Linux? A lot of the 8" diskettes I'm getting from customers these days are in poor shape and the Microtech drivers don't handle hard errors very well. I'm hoping the Linux driver is a little more persistent and will allow me to recover more data with less hassle. If only I could read all the bad diskettes on the Displaywriter--that thing will grind away on a diskette all day if it has to and rarely fails on a hard error. I wouldn't normally bother the list with this, but getting Linux installed on this box is going to be a major project and if it won't work I don't want to invest the time and money. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36

27 years, 2 months

3
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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by hhacker＠gte.net

Given that Classic Computer(s) list members can agree on a standard for the application of the term "classic" with regard to collected computing (and other) hardware, is that as far as it goes? Perhaps there is more to value in the discussion. The act in which we all participate, the collection, repair and restoration, and operation of collectable computers and software has become vogue. Hence, given our collective expertise on this matter, it is our opportunity to effect the language and propriety of our activity. I am sure that many would benefit from a formal presentation of the collective view of the propriety of applying the term "classic" to a computer, etc. To do so would not be different from the same activity as applied to antiques, numismatics, philately, etc. It is exactly in this way that these, and other, standards of collectability (a measure of "value" not necessarily economically justifiable) are derived, becoming manifest. I think that we would be doing ourselves and our activity justice. What say you? William R. Buckley

27 years, 2 months

4
4
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Memory. (was: Reliability of wrong media)

by mbg＠world.std.com

"Buck Savage" <hhacker(a)gte.net> wrote: >>Heck - my home PC has 128 Mb... which shows up through the >>POST as 130nnn (I forget the last three digits). > >128 * 1024 =3D 131072 > >Hence, if your display is > >131072K > >then your display is accurate. And it isn't what is displayed, though it is what I expected... >K means 1024, and that is universally accepted by all programmers! It >is we, the programmers of the world, who define the value of such >symbols, and = I say, it is also our prerogrative if ensure that their >use by lay persons is = accurate. This is not any different than du Pont >protecting the meaning of the = name teflon, nor Xerox the meaning of the >name Xerox. > >If this is not the display, then perhaps it is > >(128 * 1024) - (1024 - 640) =3D 130688 This looks more like it, and in fact is what I realized last night as I was writing a reply on this topic... so I did finally figure it out... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 2 months

2
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BNF pickiness. (was Re: Reiability of wrong media, etc.)

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

] ... ] There's a reason why I personally rarely reduce abbreviations all ] the way to two characters. I usually use {K|M|G}b{y|i}t[e][s]. If ] I leave it at just {K|M|G}, assume bytes. When you use "Kbyts", "Kbite", or "KBites", what does it mean? :-) How about {K|M|G}b{yte|it}[s]? Or even {K|M|G}{byte|bit}[s], which is less efficient, but clearer to humans? Any good compiler would optimize it to the former anyway. Cheers, Bill. ] -- ] Ward Griffiths ] "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then ] you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor

27 years, 2 months

1
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Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by mbg＠world.std.com

Following up to my own post... I think the problem with '1.44 Mb' is that IBM chose to refer to the exact number of bytes without using the power-of-two term properly. For example... on pdp-11s, the virtual address space is always referred to as 64 Kb... but the actual max (byte) address is 65535. If we were to follow what it appears IBM did, we would have been referring to 65.5 Kb. I agree that it is annoying that it isn't consistent. Heck - my home PC has 128 Mb... which shows up through the POST as 130nnn (I forget the last three digits). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 2 months

5
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Memory. (was: Reliability of wrong media)

by hhacker＠gte.net

>Heck - my home PC has 128 Mb... which shows up through the >POST as 130nnn (I forget the last three digits). 128 * 1024 = 131072 Hence, if your display is 131072K then your display is accurate. K means 1024, and that is universally accepted by all programmers! It is we, the programmers of the world, who define the value of such symbols, and I say, it is also our prerogrative if ensure that their use by lay persons is accurate. This is not any different than du Pont protecting the meaning of the name teflon, nor Xerox the meaning of the name Xerox. If this is not the display, then perhaps it is (128 * 1024) - (1024 - 640) = 130688 and this value would be accurate, in the sense that the region of memory between 640K and 1M is typically excluded from the sum of all memory available within a PC environment because is is mapped out so that the I/O devices may be memory mapped. William R. Buckley

27 years, 2 months

2
1
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PC's Limited

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

I want one of those LCD panels! Where can I find one? At 01:01 AM 1/22/99 -0600, Dave Wollman wrote: >Have you seen the LCD panels for Linux boxes?

27 years, 2 months

9
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Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Gary Oliver <go(a)ao.com> wrote: > Damn. I'm home and can't look it up... But I believe I recall something > called (IIRC) "Micronix" (or something similar) that ran on a Godbout > or Morrow system. I have some hardware documentation for the system > that ran it - got it in anticipation of getting one of the S-100 CPU > boards. Yep. It was a Morrow thing and I think it ran on the Decision 1 system (not the Micro Decision which is completely different). I ran into someone once who said he had experience of running Micronix and told me I did *not* want to try running it. Heh. > The system had a memory paging system on top of a Z-80 and included > some fairly sophisticated protection (both memory and I/O) that would > have permitted a Unix-like system to operate securely. Likewise my docs and disks (and hardware) are buried in storage, but >from what I remember this is all on the Z80 card and described well enough to code around in its manual. It divides the Z80's 64KB address space and the IEEE-696 16MB address space into 4KB pages, so that any page in the Z80 address space can be mapped to any page in the -696 space, and it keeps 16 page tables (called "tasks") in RAM on the Z80 card. Task 0 is special (the "supervisor") in that one of its pages is the page table RAM. The page table entries have protection bits that mark a page for various sorts of access, and if the Z80 tried to access memory in a way that wasn't allowed, the card would force an interrupt in task 0's context so that task 0 could figure out what to do (which could mean something like increasing the failing task's memory allocation and retrying the operation). I think the CPU card for the Decision 1 is the Morrow MPZ80, but can't remember if I have the part name right or not. It's a fancy IEEE-696 Z80 card. If anyone has clues on the proper system configuration for Micronix, I'm interested -- it's been a while, but I did try to get it to boot once upon a time without much success. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 2 months

1
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Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]

by kurtkilg＠geocities.com

On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > Unix didn't always have the idea of virtual memory. See Minix for an > example of that also V4 and maybe V5 unix didn't either. I would expect that the original PDP7 that ran UNIX didn't have VM...

27 years, 2 months

1
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FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have quite a number of experienced 8" diskettes I haven't discarded yet, and a few (30-40) of the 5-1/4 types (unused) which I'd be happy to send you, if you don't mind picking up the freight. Some of those 8" diskettes even have useful stuff on them. I once "inherited" a friend's collection of CP/M software but never got around to useing it for anything, since it was in some wierd format I couldn't read at the time. Dick ---------- > From: Mark <mark_k(a)iname.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:35 AM > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 Tony Duell wrote: > >Ouch!. 8" disks are difficult to find, 5.25" disks are difficult to find > >(what about 1.2 Mbyte ones - are they still available?), 3" disks are > >impossible to find. I'd better start hoarding them... > > You can still buy 8", 5.25" HD and 3" disks. Trouble is, they may be *Really* > expensive; I noticed on the Imation web site a couple of months ago that (from > memory) a box of 8" disks was over US$100. > > 3" disks are still available new from at least one place in the UK, though they > are over 2 pounds each. > > > -- Mark

27 years, 2 months

1
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Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers?

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's definitely the answer . . . Thrift Stores . . . I donated about a dozen terminals and nearly as many daisywheel printers to them last year just to have the things out of here. It's amazing what you find there. Dick ---------- > From: John R. Keys Jr. <jrkeys(a)concentric.net> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: RE: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:59 AM > > I do have a couple back in Houston with condition unknown at this time. > When I go back in June I will check and may make a trade. I got them at > Goodwill thrift stores in Houston. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu > > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Todd Osborne > > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 12:57 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? > > > > > > Anyone know where I can find a Gorilla Banana printer? I have searched all > > the "normal" channels. These things were so popular in the early 80's, I > > can't believe they have all disappeared. Thanks, > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Todd Osborne > > Senior Software Engineer > > FMStrategies, Inc. > > http://www.fmstrategies.com/ > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne(a)fmstrategies.com > > Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne(a)barnstormer-software.com > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) > > http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) > > Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. > > COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Quote: > > "The timid die just like the daring, and if you don't take the plunge then > > you'll just take the fall" - Michael Longcor > > > >

27 years, 2 months

1
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Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule.

by edick＠idcomm.com

This is all well and good, but for the fact, it seems peculiar to refer to, and deal with, as "classic", machines, the architecture of which is still supported with currently available commercial, off-the shelf, software and hardware products. DIGITAL products aside, the original PC architecture is still supported with software and hardware in the form of playing-card-sized mocrocontrollers, etc. and the software to develop for and test these devices is still available, thereby extending the life of these old but still capable devices. The term classic, seemingly a qualifier to this list, must refer to SOME class. Isn't it like the old ('50's) T-bird, vis-a-vie the Edsel? Dick ---------- > From: Doug <doug(a)blinkenlights.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 2:00 AM > > On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > > > To do so would not be different from the same activity as applied to > > antiques, numismatics, philately, etc. It is exactly in this way that > > these, and other, standards of collectability (a measure of "value" not > > necessarily economically justifiable) are derived, becoming manifest. > > A "universal" rating/certification system, similar to the way coins are > graded, would be ideal. But I don't think you'll ever get this group to > agree on anything -- just do it! (And then sell a book.) > > Forget the word "classic". A guide that gives production numbers, > variations, years, criteria to judge condition, price, etc. would be cool > -- I'd buy one, and I'd buy a new copy every year as you updated prices > and other info. > > Start with Hans P's list of machines (and pay him royalties). > > -- Doug >

27 years, 2 months

1
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Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers?

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Good grief, what for? Don't tell me that they've started becoming a collector's item! Joe At 01:56 AM 1/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone know where I can find a Gorilla Banana printer? I have searched all >the "normal" channels. These things were so popular in the early 80's, I >can't believe they have all disappeared. Thanks, > > >-------------------------------------------------------- >Todd Osborne >Senior Software Engineer >FMStrategies, Inc. >http://www.fmstrategies.com/ >-------------------------------------------------------- >FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne(a)fmstrategies.com >Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne(a)barnstormer-software.com >-------------------------------------------------------- >Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) >http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ >-------------------------------------------------------- >Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) >Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. >COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) >-------------------------------------------------------- >Quote: >"The timid die just like the daring, and if you don't take the plunge then >you'll just take the fall" - Michael Longcor > >

27 years, 2 months

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DELQA Switch Settings

by mbg＠world.std.com

>BTW, for a PDP-11 is there any real difference in the two cards? At least for RT-11, it doesn't matter from a programming standpoint since the NQ handler places the DELQA in DEQNA mode. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 2 months

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ten year rule.

by hhacker＠gte.net

>Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > >Does being designed around XT class hardware count? > Certainly is a laudable argument. How many XT systems are manufactured today? I can't imagine any myself, save for embedded systems. So, i'll vote for the term classic as applied to the presence of an XT foundation. William R. Buckley

27 years, 2 months

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LSI-11 Processor Status Word

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Stupid question: I'm trying to install TCP/IP on my PDP-11/73 running RT-11 V5.4 and am trying to choose the proper driver. Does the PDP-11/73 CPU have a Processor Status Word? Also, if you've got a driver for TSX-11 do you have to have corresponding driver for RT-11 installed? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 2 months

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WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?

by cube＠msn.fullfeed.com

Actually, there was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on those non memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago. Jay At 04:28 PM 1/22/99 -0500, cswiger wrote: >Spotted this in a Linuxtoday.com article on the latest >linux kernel: > >"On somewhat of a tangent, there is continuing work to >support a subset of the Linux kernel on 8086, 8088, >80186, and 80286 machines. This project will never >integrate itself with Linux-proper but will provide >an alternative Linux-subset operating system for >these machines. " > >Hmmm, I do have *a* 'C' compiler running on one of those >Compaq luggables... > > Chuck > cswiger(a)widomaker.com >

27 years, 2 months

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DELQA Switch Settings

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

OK, I'm almost ready to downgrade my PDP-11/73 to a DEQNA since I've got plenty of Doc's for it :^) Does anyone have the switch settings for DELQA ethernet card such as they are? BTW, for a PDP-11 is there any real difference in the two cards? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 2 months

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Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Well, every computer I have that has 1 MB or more or RAM. Which is a total of Hmm.. 4. All my others only have 640k. two are IBM's, one's a toshiba, and the other's my P200. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 4:27 PM Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes >> >> Every computer that I've ever owned, When it does a memory test of "1 >> megabyte", the listing is always >> >> 1024KB......OK. > >I can't work out if you're agreeing with me or not. > >However, 1024KB _is_ 1 Megabyte. It's 1024 * 1024 (=1048576) bytes. >Unless 'every computer that you've ever owned' defines 1KB as 1000 bytes >(hint : none of mine do that). > >-tony > >

27 years, 2 months

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Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by mbg＠world.std.com

>If so, how does 1474560 become 1.44M, not 1.47M? >The only way is to mix the terms, and use 1024000 as a meg! That is >NEITHER the power of ten, NOR the power of two. In addition, it is NOT >what they then use to measure memory! Heck, I don't know about PCs... they do strange things. In pdp-11 land, we all talked about powers-of-two for memory and disk space, and knew full well that the actual count of bytes was going to be different. 1 Kb is 1024 bytes. 64 Kb is 65536 bytes. 128 Kb was 131072 bytes. and so on... Worked the same way for disks... RT-11 architectural limit for a disk volume is 32 Mbytes. That's 65536 (blocks) * 512 (bytes) ---------------------------- = 32 Mb 1024 * 1024 It all just seemed to work properly *in the ole days*, PCs screwed things up... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 2 months

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UCSD P-System info

by sieler＠allegro.com

Hi, If you're interested in the UCSD P-system, the pages at: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~archive/documentation/p-system/p-system.html provide some info on it. The "owner" of the pages is Dr. Alfred Bork, one of the implementors of UCSD Pascal. -- Stan Sieler sieler(a)allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/sieler.html

27 years, 2 months

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PC's Limited

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 01:01 AM 1/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >I wonder if it could marquee "I wish I were an Alpha."? Just a thought. I wish I were an Alpha brand computer, and not a cheap taiwanese pc. cuz if I were an Alpha powered server, I would not be stuck with WinNT. Sorry, couldn't resist. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 2 months

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Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jan 21, 15:15, Don Maslin wrote: > Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > Don't forget that '720K' 5.25" disks also exist, although they're not > > common on IBM PCs. By that I mean 80 track, double density, double sided, > > 300 oersted coercivity. Most of those do not have the reinforcing ring IIRC. And they're pretty common on non-MSDOS systems. I far more 80-track DS drives than 40-track of any flavour. > > > 720K 5.25" v 360K 5.25": again, an issue of testing/certification, > > > similar to SS v DS. At least for a while, they were manufactured the same, > > > but were tested/certified for 48tpi or 96 tpi. > > > > I have had very little success in formatting 48tpi disks in 96tpi drives. > > As I mentioned earlier, this includes name-brands like 3M.. > > Interesting! I have never had a problem using even generic 48tpi disks > at 96tpi. > - don Nor have I, usually. I tend to treat all double-density 5.25" disks the same. Some of the old ones I have were converted to be "flippy" 40-track, and some time ago I found one such without a label. Not knowing whether it really had been formatted flipped, I tried it out, using the by-now-standard 80-track DS drive and a two-step circuit, and found it had. "OK, so that's a flippy", I said to myself. A little later, I re-read the catalogue -- and got a different listing! I had inadvertantly catalogued side two, with the disk right-side-up -- and realised that the tracks must not line up, so side two had two sets of data, going in opposite rotations, with the tracks interleaved! So I have a three-sided 40 track disk :-) > > > 3", 3.25": Many newbies will get sloppy in reference to 3.5" diskettes, > > > without realizing that there actually were 3" and 3.25" diskettes. 3" > > > were used by Amstradt, some non-US Canon?, and Amdek add-on drives for Coco There are also 2.5" disks, though the only ones I've seen were made by TDK for an early digital camera. Anyone remember the make? Canon? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 2 months

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Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Every computer that I've ever owned, When it does a memory test of "1 megabyte", the listing is always 1024KB......OK. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes >> Find me an authoritative reference that defines a megabyte as 1024 * 1024 >> bytes and I'll eat a pancake. > >I don't know how 'authoritative' you need, but will an IBM TechRef do? > >The PC/AT one that I've just picked up says : > > >M (1) Prefix mega; 1,000,000. (2) When refering to computer storage >capacity, 1,048,576 (1,048,576= 2 to the 20th power) > >Also >Mb 1,048,576 bytes. > >Incidentaly, it also defines > >Gb 1,073,741,824 bytes (=2^30 ARD) > >Can you find a reference (other than an advert :-)) that defines it any >other way? > >Anyway, I might accept that 1Mbyte = 10^6 bytes, particularly if you >happen to have a decimal or BCD machine :-) (this is classiccmp). But I >don't see any justification for making it 1024000 bytes. And that's the >only way you can have '1.44Mbytes' on a HD 3.5" disk > >-tony > >

27 years, 2 months

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C-10 Certified leaderless cassettes

by dogas＠leading.net

I cleaned out the local Radio Shack Liquidation Center of all their computer cassettes. At a nice price of 12cents each I bagged well over a hundred... So, if anyone is really ruffing it and could use some ust let me know. - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 2 months

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Bubble Memeory was Re: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I can't get to the bubble memory chip because it has a metal shield <spot-welded around it. Wrapped around 4 of the 6 sides, so to speak. I'= <ve tried removing this sort of thing before - nigh impossible without a <chisel, and I'm not about to do that. <Chip has 12 pins/side, for a total of 24, if that helps. Peeling the shield would destroy the part. It holds in place the magnets used for fixed bias to maintaining the bubbles during power off. There is nothing much to see under it. Allison

27 years, 2 months

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manuals, mac software

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

Well, all this talk of supplies of old floppies got me to worrying a bit, so I obtained permission to grab a bunch of old manuals and floppy disks from work. Actually I'm rather annoyed, because a former employee came back and asked for the N-Cube computer, and was given permission to take it! Thats a multi-processor machine with hypercube data exchange links between processors.. Sigh.. and it looked kool too (we had christmas lights blinking inside its smokey front panel, and students would see it and be very impressed at all the computing that was being done!) Anyways, I grabbed a bunch of old disk drive manuals and disk drive controller manuals, from abnout the sun2/sun3 era. Rimfire controller manuals for SMD-E style drives, eagle (maybe double eagle) drive manuals, CDC Sabre drive manuals, Fujitsu drive manuals (i think these are probably 5.25" drives, but they were rackmounted in teh old days and were in very long cases). If there is any interest i can catalog all the names of this stuff. I also have a set of NeXT manuals. Might be version 1.0, might be 2.1 And I'll be grabbing approximately 800 3.5" DSDD floppy disks that currently have very old MacIntosh software on them. Mainly stuff like Word, Excel, etc.. If anyones interested in this, I can work on making a detailed list of the manuals or software. Perhaps I could trade the manuals for something interesting. -Lawrence LeMay

27 years, 2 months

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OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jan 22, 12:57, Max Eskin wrote: > Subject: Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) > Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com wrote: > > Metre, Kilogram, Second, Ampere, Kelvin, Mole and Candela (normally > > Kilogram? Why not gram? The whole system is based on units that are matched to each other in such a way that the constants involved in relating units to other units work out to unity. So the kilogram just happens to be a handier quantity than a gram, and saves a lot of dividing or multiplying by 1000. Except, of course, in real life, where units are rarely handy sizes at all :-) On Jan 22, 13:28, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Subject: Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) > :: Uh, I thought a gram was defined as 1 cc of water at 4C. A kilogram is > ::1,000 cc of water at 4C, which is one litre of water (a litre being 1,000 cc > ::volume). > > The original kilo is a big lump of metal in a bell jar, when the kilogram > was introduced as a standard. It was originally intended to be a cubic decimetre of water at it's maximum density. Unfortunatley, that turned out to be 28 ppm to large -- the constants I mentioned above don't quite work out to unity. So it was changed to an arbitrary amount to suit -- and the litre was defined as the volume of water that had that mass at it's maximum density. Hence a litre was actually 1000.028 cm^3. Since that just moves the "obviously silly" constant to a different place in the scheme, it was redefined later to be exactly 1000 cm^3, but with the recommendation that it not be used for work of high accuracy. Hmmm.... and we thought IBM were having trouble with the megamaths. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 2 months

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PC's Limited

by bill＠chipware.com

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > I will break with my above comments long enough to say that if I had lots > of storage space, it would be really cool to get a PC's Limited pc... My roommate in college had their 12MHz 286 with 640K of *STATIC* RAM. Oh man... I would have given my right arm for that machine. The front panel was really useful, not just that clone fake display set with jumpers. It showed POST codes, disk access info CPU speed... That was a cool machine. Bill Sudbrink

27 years, 2 months

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The "megabyte" discussion

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 1/22/99 3:03:37 PM EST, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes in repsonse to chuck mcmannis: > > I bought an IBM Deskstar hard disk that was rated at 810 Megabytes and it > > had a note inserted into the packaging that had, IIRC, this to say about > it: > > > > Dear Customer, > > The disk you have purchased holds 810,549,248 bytes when it > > is formatted. Some programs will use the value of 1,048,576 bytes > > as the size of a megabyte and will show this disk as having only > > 773 "megabytes" of storage, other programs will use 1,024,000 bytes > > as the size of a megabyte and show the disk as having 791 or 792 > > megabytes. We don't understand it either, sorry for the confusion. > > IBM Support > > I can hardly believe IBM would put that last sentence in any of their > literature. Some jocular IBMers must've slipped that thru when the > corporate exec wasn't looking. > well, you better believe that induhviduals can and do escalate up to corporate about things like this that they cannot or will not understand. hey, a little humour always helps the rank novice to get a clue. david

27 years, 2 months

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OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> extremes, things like the definition of a volt may be needed... > > :-)... Possibly.. I think that might be going a bit far. I would hope > some other electrical books had survived. > > If not, how would you define a 'volt'? In terms of the steps on a > microwave-excited Josephson Junction? It's reproducable, and > frequency/time is also easy to define. I was thinking of defining it in terms of a bandgap, such as used in precision reference "diodes". I'd like to define it in terms of SI units, but the Kilogram is not too easy (yet). Philip.

27 years, 2 months

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FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by rcini＠msn.com

Hello, all: I tried ordering the bulk 5-1/4" disks yesterday. Gone for good...none left...sorry...bye bye...look elsewhere. Better start stockpiling 360k diskettes... [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================>

27 years, 2 months

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Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes

by manney＠hmcltd.net

My heathkit H-89, which used SSHS mounted vertically, had a note in the manual that using "flippy" diskettes was not recommended, as dirt and suchlike (which collects on the liner during normal operation) was likely to fall out if the disk were flipped, and thus run backwards. S'pose that was so they could sell you more disks, or was there some truth to that? I can think of very few home units which had vertically mounted drives... Trash-80's are all that come to mind. P Manney >"Flippy": The second side can often be used in a single sided drive by >flipping the disk over. In the case of Apple ][ and Commodore, it >requires punching a write enable notch. (Which does NOT need to be square.) >On TRS-80, IBM, etc, it is necessary to also punch an additional >(symmetric) access hole for the index hole. (jigs for marking and >punching used to be available.)

27 years, 2 months

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eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:01 AM 1/21/99 -0800, you wrote: >One thing I find interesting is that I rarely find anyone talking about >their finds on ebay; why not? okay, I was waiting until I was able to do more research, but... For $5 and shipping, I got (on eBay!) a Sharp PC-5000 laptop. No biggie you think? Well, for starters, from what I can tell, it beats the Gavilan out for second place in the Clamshell laptop race (GRiD Compass was first). On top of that, it beats the Gavilan for: removeable program/data cartridges (uses Bubble Memory carts) clamshell with a built-in portable printer, and something else I forget at the moment. It's pretty cool, and a lot cheaper than some of the commoner stuff I've gotten. Other eBay scores: V-Marc 88a portable computer, NEC PC-8201 (not the 8201A), I'm sure there are more, but I have to go pick up my dad. eBay can be useful, but it's takes time to look for old computers. Try doing a search on "Donald Duck" (with the quotes) -- that's a piece of cake. Look for computer and you get a lot of junk. Look for "vintage" and you miss a lot. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 2 months

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