< In a thrift-shop I picked up a copy of of a DEC Installing and Using the V
<terminal. Later I ran across the machine itself with K-B at the main store.
<passed it by at the time since I had acquired a bunch of other equipment an
<couldn't handle it.
< It was only $15 , but I'm rapidly running out of space. Is it worthwhile g
<back for it ? Or is it fairly common and easily available ?
Collectable, no. DEC made a lot of them. It is however a good terminal
with excellent VT52/100/220 emulations. For 15$ if it's clean a good deal.
Lat year I gave a dozen away.
Allison
It's unlikely I'll do that, since of the many hundreds of boxes of 8"
diskettes I owned at one time, there were only two of the hard-sectored
ones. I recently had a local NRC contractor phone me up after a long chain
of referrals, to inquire whether I could replace a drive for them and I had
to ask them to provide me with a disketted with which to test the drives.
I believe I had one partial box of Memorex diskettes which came with an old
NBI word processor which used Memorex drives and an i8008, which , by the
way, is now a "high-tech tie-tack" I occasionally wear. There was also an
odd box (possibly new, possibly full) of 10-sector hard-sectored diskettes.
I don't know what their use was, but I had some GSI/Siemens drives which
could operate with either type and soft-sectored ones as well.
In the unlikely event these turn up, I'll let you know.
regards,
Dick
----------
> From: Merle K. Peirce <at258(a)osfn.org>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: update to "here's the list..."
> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 7:34 AM
>
>
> All Alaimo at Computers and More in Marlborough, MA had some new disks
> awhile back. I'm sure he'd love to sell you all he has. They were
> pretty reasonable.
>
> On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
>
> > At 07:48 PM 2/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >
> > >sadly, had to be tossed with the other 50K or so 8" diskettes I have
> > >ditched over the past year.
> >
> > Dick,
> >
> > If you come across ANY hard sectored floppy disks I could use them..
I
> > have several systems that used the hard sectored ones but they're hard
to
> > come by. If you don't want to take time to sort them, I'll take the
whole
> > lot and sort them and pass the soft sectored ones on to someone else.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >PICEON 64K DRAM board
> >
> > OH! I can use this! I have one on my Alpha Micro and I could use
another.
> >
> > >>
> > >> Processor Technology "CUTS" cassette interface? board
> >
> > I won't mind having this.
> > >>
> > >> BIOTECH ELECTRONICS BCT800 graphics board - uses AMI 68047 chip and
12
> > >2114's to produce 256x192 graphics and text.
> >
> > I'd like to have this.
> > >>
> > >> Cromemco Dazzler video graphics board pair - There are two, but only
one
> > >set of doc's and software including paper tape.
> > >>
> >
> > I hope you have my name on one of these. I'll make copies of the
manual
> > and disks to go with the other board.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> M. K. Peirce
> Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
> 215 Shady Lea Road,
> North Kingstown, RI 02852
>
> "Cast est qui nemo rogavit."
>
> - Ovid
<Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that most programs such as
<teledisk will not work reliably with anything faster than a 486/33. I
<know I've been keeping my eye open for a nice _small_ system that is a
<486/33 or slower and can still run Linux and be connected to a network for
<just this purpose.
Last time I used it it was on a 486dx2/66 and it worked fine. It may have
been more controller related than cpu as there isn't much majik in the code.
Allison
<Didn't the Kaypro use 1K sectors? ...and why do I have the impression tha
No unless you were using the Advent turborom.
<the Kaypro had a WD 1770 or 1772 (28-pin) FDC on it? I used to swap disks
<with the AMPRO which was like this all the time. It's been a long time
<though . . .
The part used was a 1793 or the same part with a japanese part number(8873
I think).
Allison
I have 4 boards that go to IBM PS/2 model 70-386's, the 25 mhz version
to find homes for. These are the smaller processor board that mount to
J1 and J2 on the base motherboard and has the 80386DX-25 on it and has
the socket for the 80387DX-25. If you have a bad machine, or just need a
standard Intel 80386DX-25 chip, then this is for you!
The picture listed at
http://www.pc.ibm.com:80/bookmgr/pictures/s52g9971-picture-77-zoom.gif
shows the layout of the entire board and the ones I have are the small
board that #6 points to. The standoffs to mount the board are NOT
included. All have been tested with and without a 387 math processor and
function great.
How much? $5.00 each plus a few dollars shipping. They don't weigh much
so I imagine they should ship cheap. USA ad APO/FPO addresses only,
payable by either money order or cash (if you trust the mail that much).
If someone wants ALL FOUR right off the bat then I can go $16 for all of
them, plus a still small shipping fee. Drop me a note by direct email
and please include your zip code so I can guess-timate shipping. My
guess is probably $2 will get one of these to most places in the lower
48.
Russ Blakeman
Harned, KY USA
>>but I have the idea of taking one of them and
>>replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
>
> That's sacraledge!
I know, you're right. That's why I want two. ;-)
I'll let you know if I come up with an 802H. Do you know if it looks the
same as the 803? I'm really into the nostalgia value of having a machine
that has that distinctive 803/1603 styling.
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
>Hi Doug,
>
> I'm looking for one also. I'd LIKE to find an 802H. I just got a complete
>set of docs including the service manual.
>
>>may turn into a crazy project, but I have the idea of taking one of them
and
>>replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
>
> That's sacraledge!
>
> Joe
>
>At 08:01 PM 2/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>Greetings,
>>
>>I'm looking for a TeleVideo CP/M machine, particularly the TS-803 or
>>TS-1603. If you have one of these computers, or one similar to this one
>>(not including the portable), I'd be interesting in buying it. Or, if you
>>have suggestions on where else I might look for one, I'd really appreciate
>>it. These were great machines, but they're hard to find now!
>>
>>Actually, I may be interested in two of these, if they're available. This
>>may turn into a crazy project, but I have the idea of taking one of them
and
>>replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
>>combination to run Linux on it. The TeleVideo 803/1603 has a unique case,
>>which would make for a great looking computer even today. The trick would
>>be maitaining compatibility with the keyboard cable and monitor; not to
>>mention fitting the components inside reliably. But what a coup it would
>>be!
>>
>>Thanks. I'm in the Seattle area, fwiw.
>>
>>
>>Doug Auerbach
>>
>>
>>
>
There's a fair amount of documentation the corresponding software to which,
sadly, had to be tossed with the other 50K or so 8" diskettes I have
ditched over the past year. I'll list that later, but here are some
additions to the S-100 hardware list. Subsequent versions of this list
will appear similarly updated, i.e. new additions separately, but the
complete previous listing integrated.
additional S-100 items as of 19:20 on 2/20/99
Industrial Micro Systems Z80A CPU Board - no provision for a PROM
Industrial Micro Systems 64K DRAM board
Industrial Micro Systems I/O card with two UARTS, 1 8255 PIA, 1 8253 TIMER,
PROM designated SA1000
{BTW - there's also an 8" hard disk with an SA1000-compatible controller on
it, propbably compatible with the above.}
JADE Memory Bank 64K DRAM board
PICEON 64K DRAM board
SD SYSTEMS SBC 100 CPU Board
SD SYSTEMS SBC 200 CPU Board
SD SYSTEMS Expandoram 64K DRAM Board
SD SYSTEMS Expandoram II 64K DRAM Board
SD SYSTEMS Expandoram II 64K DRAM Board
Solid State Music VB1B video board - missing crystal
TEI I/O Board with 8253 timer, 3 8251's, 1 8255
Morrow Thinker Toys "Switchboard" Serial/Parallel I/O board - with doc's
Cromemco D + 7A analog and digital I/O board with doc's
in addition to the S-100 stuff, there are numerous 4-and 9-slot Multibus I
cardcages and several memory boards, floppy and hard disk interface cards,
and a few iSBC's I don't intend to keep.
for the Apple-][ lovers, there are a couple of complete computers and a
number of cards not yet listed but soon to come. There's also a fair
amount of software, mostly for the ][+ with the Z80 card, including, I
believe, COBOL, FORTRAN, PL-1, BASIC, BASCOM, among others, based on the
documentation I've found.
> From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: here's the list . . .
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 4:43 PM
>
> Here's the list of S-100 hardware I've turned up in the last mess of
boxes,
> etc to be unearthed in my basement and transferred to open air storage in
> my carport. This is only a partial list of what I've uncovered this
> afternoon, and an extended list will be available later today.
>
> There is other stuff, not yet inventoried, but that will be later, if at
> all.
>
> Cromemco 21-slot unterminated Motherboard in VECTOR cardcage - assembled
> but never used.
>
> MSC (later became XEBEC) 9391 5Mbps HARD DISK controller. This
controller
> is functional and capable of handling 16 or fewer heads at 512-byte or
> 256-byte sector sizes and steps the drive at 3ms per step, which was
> typical back in 1980. This was the one we used most. Some docs
available
>
> XCOMP HDC 2-board set. These are set up for 8" drives only and require
one write the BIOS patch or back end driver oneself.
>
> Franklin Electric 3-UART serial I/O board
>
> DC Hayes Micromodem-100 including documentation and software
>
> SSM IO4 2P+2S I/O Board with documentation. No software was provided
since everyone wrote their own BIOS patches for it.
>
> North Star Z80A CPU card
>
> California Computer Systems 2810 Z80A CPU card, with monitor prom.
> California Computer Systems 2422 FDC for both 8 & 5.25" drives, with
> monitor/boot prom
> California Computer Systems 4-port serial card.
> California Computer Systems 64K DRAM card
>
> Vector Graphics 64K DRAM card
>
> Extended Processing "BURNER, I/O" board - Prom Programmer with UARTS and
PIO not installed.
>
> Processor Technology "CUTS" cassette interface? board
>
> BIOTECH ELECTRONICS BCT800 graphics board - uses AMI 68047 chip and 12
2114's to produce 256x192 graphics and text.
>
> Cromemco Dazzler video graphics board pair - There are two, but only one
set of doc's and software including paper tape.
>
> MITS Modem board - a MITS serial board with a "MODEM BD" rider.
>
and (b) why
>bother to put the whole thing back together again?
Someone was mad at it?
Best one I ever heard of was a guy who -- um -- urinated in his. Seems it
worked for a little while after, too.
Friend of mine got it in for repair, but wasn't told by the culprit. Funny
smell, though.
Kip,
I enjoyed your article.
I have a IBM System 360 control panel complete with the 360 metal bar that
goes above the panel.
Let me know if you know anyone that would want to buy it ... it would be a
great retirement gift or an excellent office piece.
It is about 3' by 4' and would fit on a wall.
Attached is a pic.
Paul
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Paul S. Kraabel
KRAABEL & Co., Inc. http://www.kraabel.com/
Box 804, Mercer Island, WA USA 98040-0804
Voice- 206 236 1622
Email- kraabel(a)kraabel.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Greetings,
I'm looking for a TeleVideo CP/M machine, particularly the TS-803 or
TS-1603. If you have one of these computers, or one similar to this one
(not including the portable), I'd be interesting in buying it. Or, if you
have suggestions on where else I might look for one, I'd really appreciate
it. These were great machines, but they're hard to find now!
Actually, I may be interested in two of these, if they're available. This
may turn into a crazy project, but I have the idea of taking one of them and
replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
combination to run Linux on it. The TeleVideo 803/1603 has a unique case,
which would make for a great looking computer even today. The trick would
be maitaining compatibility with the keyboard cable and monitor; not to
mention fitting the components inside reliably. But what a coup it would
be!
Thanks. I'm in the Seattle area, fwiw.
Doug Auerbach
Dick,
I may be interested in your TS-806's. Can you tell me more about them? If
you like, let's take it to email.
Doug
(douga(a)email.com)
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
>Perhaps I can help . . . I have a couple of TS806's sans HDD. Any
>interest?
>
>regards,
>
>Dick
>
>----------
>> From: Doug Auerbach <douga(a)email.com>
>> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>> Subject: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
>> Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 9:01 PM
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I'm looking for a TeleVideo CP/M machine, particularly the TS-803 or
>> TS-1603
I do believe the 803 and 802 had the same package, but different contents.
I haven't seen one in over 15 years, though.
Dick
----------
> From: Doug Auerbach <douga(a)email.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 10:00 PM
>
> >>but I have the idea of taking one of them and
> >>replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
> >
> > That's sacraledge!
>
> I know, you're right. That's why I want two. ;-)
>
> I'll let you know if I come up with an 802H. Do you know if it looks the
> same as the 803? I'm really into the nostalgia value of having a machine
> that has that distinctive 803/1603 styling.
>
> Doug
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 8:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
>
>
> >Hi Doug,
> >
> > I'm looking for one also. I'd LIKE to find an 802H. I just got a
complete
> >set of docs including the service manual.
> >
> >>may turn into a crazy project, but I have the idea of taking one of
them
> and
> >>replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
> >
> > That's sacraledge!
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >At 08:01 PM 2/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >>Greetings,
> >>
> >>I'm looking for a TeleVideo CP/M machine, particularly the TS-803 or
> >>TS-1603. If you have one of these computers, or one similar to this
one
> >>(not including the portable), I'd be interesting in buying it. Or, if
you
> >>have suggestions on where else I might look for one, I'd really
appreciate
> >>it. These were great machines, but they're hard to find now!
> >>
> >>Actually, I may be interested in two of these, if they're available.
This
> >>may turn into a crazy project, but I have the idea of taking one of
them
> and
> >>replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
> >>combination to run Linux on it. The TeleVideo 803/1603 has a unique
case,
> >>which would make for a great looking computer even today. The trick
would
> >>be maitaining compatibility with the keyboard cable and monitor; not to
> >>mention fitting the components inside reliably. But what a coup it
would
> >>be!
> >>
> >>Thanks. I'm in the Seattle area, fwiw.
> >>
> >>
> >>Doug Auerbach
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
1. Sorry about that last posting, folks. I thought it was a personal email.
I'm (obviously) new to this list.
2. Does anyone have a link to a site with images of the various TeleVideo
models? I've seen one image on the net, at the following address, but I've
yet to find anything else: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-vcf.html
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Auerbach <douga(a)email.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
>>>but I have the idea of taking one of them and
>>>replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
>>
>> That's sacraledge!
>
>I know, you're right. That's why I want two. ;-)
>
>I'll let you know if I come up with an 802H. Do you know if it looks the
>same as the 803? I'm really into the nostalgia value of having a machine
>that has that distinctive 803/1603 styling.
>
>Doug
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 8:54 PM
>Subject: Re: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
>
>
>>Hi Doug,
>>
>> I'm looking for one also. I'd LIKE to find an 802H. I just got a
complete
>>set of docs including the service manual.
>>
>>>may turn into a crazy project, but I have the idea of taking one of them
>and
>>>replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
>>
>> That's sacraledge!
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>At 08:01 PM 2/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Greetings,
>>>
>>>I'm looking for a TeleVideo CP/M machine, particularly the TS-803 or
>>>TS-1603. If you have one of these computers, or one similar to this one
>>>(not including the portable), I'd be interesting in buying it. Or, if
you
>>>have suggestions on where else I might look for one, I'd really
appreciate
>>>it. These were great machines, but they're hard to find now!
>>>
>>>Actually, I may be interested in two of these, if they're available.
This
>>>may turn into a crazy project, but I have the idea of taking one of them
>and
>>>replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
>>>combination to run Linux on it. The TeleVideo 803/1603 has a unique
case,
>>>which would make for a great looking computer even today. The trick
would
>>>be maitaining compatibility with the keyboard cable and monitor; not to
>>>mention fitting the components inside reliably. But what a coup it would
>>>be!
>>>
>>>Thanks. I'm in the Seattle area, fwiw.
>>>
>>>
>>>Doug Auerbach
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
So far, I've only found the one set of Dazzler doc's and software, and the
software is on paper tape.
I believe there's still one dazzler set floating around, though.
I still have a few hundred 8" diskettes, of which maybe ten or twenty will
be hard sectored, with holes on the outside of one box and on the inside of
the other. I may never find these, however, as they were stored in a part
of the basement now buried with "other" stuff. ONly time will tell.
If you need the PICEON 64K DRAM board then it's yours, pending adequate
shipping arrangements.
regards,
Dick
----------
> From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: update to "here's the list..."
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 5:48 PM
>
> At 07:48 PM 2/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
> >sadly, had to be tossed with the other 50K or so 8" diskettes I have
> >ditched over the past year.
>
> Dick,
>
> If you come across ANY hard sectored floppy disks I could use them.. I
> have several systems that used the hard sectored ones but they're hard to
> come by. If you don't want to take time to sort them, I'll take the whole
> lot and sort them and pass the soft sectored ones on to someone else.
>
>
> >
> >PICEON 64K DRAM board
>
> OH! I can use this! I have one on my Alpha Micro and I could use
another.
>
> >>
> >> Processor Technology "CUTS" cassette interface? board
>
> I won't mind having this.
> >>
> >> BIOTECH ELECTRONICS BCT800 graphics board - uses AMI 68047 chip and 12
> >2114's to produce 256x192 graphics and text.
>
> I'd like to have this.
> >>
> >> Cromemco Dazzler video graphics board pair - There are two, but only
one
> >set of doc's and software including paper tape.
> >>
>
> I hope you have my name on one of these. I'll make copies of the
manual
> and disks to go with the other board.
>
>
I do have a boot disk for the 806. I'm not sure where it is at the moment,
but it's within 10-12 feet of here for sure. Since I haven't used a CP/M
box of any sort for a long time, I'd be afraid to guess how I'll replicate
it. The 806's I have are 20's but that's a combination of a 20MB hard
drive and about half a dozen bytes in the bios. I used to switch between a
ten and a 20 by patching these bytes.
Email me in a couple of days and I'll try to have a firm answer for you.
----------
> From: Merle K. Peirce <at258(a)osfn.org>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 9:20 PM
>
>
> We have a TS806-20 that keeps requesting s boot disk (revision F?).
> Anyone have anything like that out there, or one for an Altos 8600-12?
>
> On Sat, 20 Feb 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> > Perhaps I can help . . . I have a couple of TS806's sans HDD. Any
> > interest?
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Dick
> >
> > ----------
> > > From: Doug Auerbach <douga(a)email.com>
> > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> > <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> > > Subject: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
> > > Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 9:01 PM
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > >
> > > I'm looking for a TeleVideo CP/M machine, particularly the TS-803 or
> > > TS-1603. If you have one of these computers, or one similar to this
one
> > > (not including the portable), I'd be interesting in buying it. Or,
if
> > you
> > > have suggestions on where else I might look for one, I'd really
> > appreciate
> > > it. These were great machines, but they're hard to find now!
> > >
> > > Actually, I may be interested in two of these, if they're available.
> > This
> > > may turn into a crazy project, but I have the idea of taking one of
them
> > and
> > > replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
> > > combination to run Linux on it. The TeleVideo 803/1603 has a unique
> > case,
> > > which would make for a great looking computer even today. The trick
> > would
> > > be maitaining compatibility with the keyboard cable and monitor; not
to
> > > mention fitting the components inside reliably. But what a coup it
would
> > > be!
> > >
> > > Thanks. I'm in the Seattle area, fwiw.
> > >
> > >
> > > Doug Auerbach
> > >
> >
>
> M. K. Peirce
> Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
> 215 Shady Lea Road,
> North Kingstown, RI 02852
>
> "Cast est qui nemo rogavit."
>
> - Ovid
Perhaps I can help . . . I have a couple of TS806's sans HDD. Any
interest?
regards,
Dick
----------
> From: Doug Auerbach <douga(a)email.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Wanted: TeleVideo CP/M machine(s)
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 9:01 PM
>
> Greetings,
>
> I'm looking for a TeleVideo CP/M machine, particularly the TS-803 or
> TS-1603. If you have one of these computers, or one similar to this one
> (not including the portable), I'd be interesting in buying it. Or, if
you
> have suggestions on where else I might look for one, I'd really
appreciate
> it. These were great machines, but they're hard to find now!
>
> Actually, I may be interested in two of these, if they're available.
This
> may turn into a crazy project, but I have the idea of taking one of them
and
> replacing the guts with a standard PC motherboard/hd/ram/power supply
> combination to run Linux on it. The TeleVideo 803/1603 has a unique
case,
> which would make for a great looking computer even today. The trick
would
> be maitaining compatibility with the keyboard cable and monitor; not to
> mention fitting the components inside reliably. But what a coup it would
> be!
>
> Thanks. I'm in the Seattle area, fwiw.
>
>
> Doug Auerbach
>
>(In any case, the use of the word velocity is incorrect. Velocity is
>a vector, as I had drilled into me in Physics class.)
Technically, escape velocity is a scalar quantity... except that it cannot
be aimed at the ground. Anything above the ground gets you into orbit, with
enough force.
P Manney
<Has anyone ever upgraded a memory expansion card (000034, plugs into
<slot 0-5 of the CTI bus) from 64Kbit to 256Kbit chips? (256KB to 1MB)
<You can easily do this with the memory card that plugs into the
<mother board--there's even two empty jumpers waiting for stuffing.
No. the other board is also very different.
<Is it possible? If someone thinks they can do it, I'll gladly
<contribute a board for a proof-of-concept test. You keep the board
<as long as you tell me how to do it!
Yes, you will need to alter the PALs and also configure for an extra
multiplex address line. Practical, not likely.
Allison
<I am really glad to find I can use the ST-251 in my DEC
<Pro 380 instead of the Quantum Q540, since the later drive
<is rarer, older, and perhaps (in my experience) not too
<reliable. And has a smaller capacity, of course, and is
<a full-height drive.
The ST251 is well known for it's bad bearings and spindle problems. The
Q540 is known for running forever. The later know as a RD52 is very
common and very hard to kill. I have about 8 of them (all good).
Generally I will not use a st251 again... I spent to much time helping PC
support at DEC with disk failures in VAXmates (st251s aka RD32) where the
older st225 was rock solid.
<Is there a better drive (MFM) with equivalent geometry?
<(820 cyls, 6 hds, 17 sec) or maybe with 6+ heads and 820+
<cylinders (that might work, too?). Half-height would be
<nice, like the 251, because if I ever get another HD
<controller card, I can put two drives in my Pro 380 (only
<one drive per controller card, and supposedly only one
<per Pro chassis, but the 251 probably uses a lot less
<power than the Q540, so two drives should be OK).
the q540 is 8x512 (31mb)... and the 251 is 6x820 (40mb). Also the 540 is
several times faster (voice coil VS Stepper).
Allison
Why not drill a 5/16" hole through the case and spray in WD-40?
>I have a noisy ST 251 hard drive. It sounds like the bearings.
>
>Is it heretical to think I may be able to lubricate the bearings?
>They appear to be easily accessible on the bottom of the drive.
>
>Thanks,
>Dave
>
Here's another Pro 380 question. I asked it on the pdp11 newsgroups
and got no answers. Maybe you can do better here!
Has anyone ever upgraded a memory expansion card (000034, plugs into
slot 0-5 of the CTI bus) from 64Kbit to 256Kbit chips? (256KB to 1MB)
You can easily do this with the memory card that plugs into the
mother board--there's even two empty jumpers waiting for stuffing.
Is it possible? If someone thinks they can do it, I'll gladly
contribute a board for a proof-of-concept test. You keep the board
as long as you tell me how to do it!
Dave
Hi all. I'm feeling clueless at this point. I've found the CPM caldera
site and downloaded everything that looked appropriate, but I'm completely
unclear how to turn this into a kaypro boot disk. I've put a 360k PC
drive on my PC in the hopes of using it to write the disk. I've also
downloaded teledisk.
Now what?
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings, Classic Computer Fans,
I've just subscribed. I've heard about this list for a long time, and have
been recommended to check it out by a number of folks, so...here I am.
My name is Rick Bensene. I live near Portland, Oregon. Some here may know
me from my old calculator collection (which I'll shamlessly plug here:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510), which is my substitute
for collecting old computers. (Calculators take up less space)
I've been involved with computers since the early 1970's. I currently work
as a technologist at a large Electronic Design Automation software company.
I've always loved computers, and though I don't actively collect them,
I am hoping to live vicariously through all you folks who are active in
collecting.
I have a few older computers that I've run across, mostly as orphans.
These include a Tandy 100 (who doesn't have one of these?), a Tandy 600, a
Sun 3/50, a Sun 4/360, A couple of Tektronix 6130's, a Tektronix 4132, and
a Tektronix 4319. I worked at Tektronix for 13 years, from '77 through '90,
so
I have a particular affection for Tektronix equipment.
I've used/administrated/hacked/programmed quite a range of computers,
ranging from
a CDC Cyber 73 and later Cyber 176 at Tektronix, VAX 11/780's running both
VMS and
4BSD Unix, A Gould Powernode 9080 (interesting, all ECL machine with
dual processors), a DEC PDP8/E(OS8), a DEC RSTS system (running on
PDP 11/45), varios 11-based systems running RT-11, HP 2000C, E, F, and
ACCESS
timeshare systems, Apollo Domain OS (DN300, DN3000-series), Sun from as
early as the 68K-based VME-bus systems to latest Ultras, early HPUX machines
(700-series workstations), IBM RT workstation, IBM 360/30, early
micros (Altair, IMSAI, North Star Horizon, ProcTech SOL), Commodore PET,
TRS-80, TRS-80 Color Computer, homebrew stuff (8008, 8080 and 6809),
Tektronix 4051, Tektronix 6130/4132, Tektronix 4081, Tektronix
43xx-workstations, Alpha Micro (from the early LSI-11-based days), an old
(early 1960's) computer made by 3M
(can't remember the model number, but I'll write up some memories about it
for
the list), a SCM 7816 (strange beast, a cross between a computer and a
calculator), and of course, PC's since the original. I've programmed in
FORTRAN, COBOL, just about all variants of BASIC, C, Perl, Pascal, and in
assembly on PDP-8, PDP-11, IBM 360, Interdata 7/16, 8008, 8080, Z80, 6800,
6809, 8051, 8085, 8086, National 320xx, and 68K.
I'm looking forward to sharing memories with the list, and, as mentioned,
hearing about your memories, and all the great collector finds out there.
Best wishes to all,
Rick Bensene
Here's the list of S-100 hardware I've turned up in the last mess of boxes,
etc to be unearthed in my basement and transferred to open air storage in
my carport. This is only a partial list of what I've uncovered this
afternoon, and an extended list will be available later today.
There is other stuff, not yet inventoried, but that will be later, if at
all.
Cromemco 21-slot unterminated Motherboard in VECTOR cardcage - assembled
but never used.
MSC (later became XEBEC) 9391 5Mbps HARD DISK controller. This controller
is functional and capable of handling 16 or fewer heads at 512-byte or
256-byte sector sizes and steps the drive at 3ms per step, which was
typical back in 1980. This was the one we used most.
XCOMP HDC 2-board set. These are set up for 8" drives only and require one
write the BIOS patch or back end driver oneself.
Franklin Electric 3-UART serial I/O board
DC Hayes Micromodem-100 including documentation and software
SSM IO4 2P+2S I/O Board with documentation. No software was provided since
everyone wrote their own BIOS patches for it.
North Star Z80A CPU card
California Computer Systems 2810 Z80A CPU card, with monitor prom.
California Computer Systems 2422 FDC for both 8 & 5.25" drives, with
monitor/boot prom
California Computer Systems 4-port serial card.
California Computer Systems 64K DRAM card
Vector Graphics 64K DRAM card
Extended Processing "BURNER, I/O" board - Prom Programmer with UARTS and
PIO not installed.
Processor Technology "CUTS" cassette interface? board
BIOTECH ELECTRONICS BCT800 graphics board - uses AMI 68047 chip and 12
2114's to produce 256x192 graphics and text.
Cromemco Dazzler video graphics board pair - There are two, but only one
set of doc's and software including paper tape.
MITS Modem board - a MITS serial board with a "MODEM BD" rider.
Hi,
I have a Chinon 8-bit ISA SCSI host adapter card, which came with my old Chinon
CDS-435 SCSI-1 CD-ROM drive.
The part number printed on the card is 66201UCSEP02.
The only provided driver software is for the Chinon CD-ROM. To use other SCSI
devices with this, I need appropriate drivers.
What I want to know is, was any "universal" driver software ever made for this
card, by which I probably mean an ASPI-compliant driver? If anyone has any
idea, or a suggestion of where might be a better place to ask this question,
please tell.
BTW, Tony Duell would really like this SCSI controller; *every* chip on the
card is simple 74-series TTL. :)
-- Mark
On Thursday, February 18, 1999 4:58 AM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net]
wrote:
> At 04:09 PM 2/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Michael,
> >
> >Are those belts problematic?
>
> Yes, the belts and the drive wheel for the tape drives disintegrate
with
> age.
Looking at my machine, I can see that the drive wheel for the tape drive is
pretty funky. I haven't tried to use it (don't have a cartridge) but, it'll
probably fail.
Is there a common source for drive wheels?
What about the cartridges?
Thanks,
Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
Joe wrote:
> No, I'm not sure. I'm just using the initialize command in HP BASIC and
>the format command in HP CPM. That's the only "tools" they give you. I
>have no idea how to do a low level format on these.
This made think of a problem my friend was trying to solve a while ago. His
boss asked him to fix a 386 because of a quite spectacular Windows 3.11
crash. My friend couldn't even format the hard drive using the traditional
MS-DOS format programs so he tried the Packard Bell diagnostic disk that had
come with his old 486 (terrible machine, everything was built into the
motherboard). It turned out that it was doing a low-level format which
killed the IDE drive. I've never understood why Packard Bell who sold many
of their computers to novices would ship something that could damage the
hardware. To save face my friend just said the Windows crash had messed up
the machine and I let him have one of the 40Mb hard drives I owned at the
time.
--
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856
http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star"
I'm trying to make room for a child and her progeny in my basement, hence
have moved some items into the carport . . .
Since todays weather is good, I'm out sifting through the stuff looking for
items of interest, and find I have a MITS modem board.
Would this be of interest to anyone?
Dick
There are supposed to be three of these board sets, though I saw one or two
for the first time in 20 years yesterday. One appears to be complete with
doc's and software, though the others, which I know were "played with" by
my associates, may not be as complete, and some duplicating may be called
for.
I'm pretty certain that I can lay hands on two of these sets more or less
right away, including one set of doc's and software, which I believe I held
in my hands yesterday. The quandary arises out of the fact that there is
at least one other board set, and i don't have a running CP/M box, since
I'm not a collector.
I've had a couple of modest cash offers, but would rather leave $$$ out of
the equation if possible. If you have anything swappable, I'm interested
in single-board computers, preferably small and simple, with documentation
and firmware so I can USE them for something.
If you're a Cromemco addict, you may be interested in the fact that I have
a couple of functional PERSCI floppy drives, which were commonly available
(though EXTREMELY expensive at the time) with the Cromemco systems back
when Computerland used to sell them. These are single-sided (model 277)
drives, of which one is packaged as an external unit complete with power
supply, while another enclosure is in some less-than-functional state and
extensively disassembled. I've recently looked at the power supply and
noted that the regulator circuitry is missing. I also have parts of a
third unit which is useable as parts only. What's probably more
interesting is that I have the maintenance documents for these PERSCI
drives. These are voice-coil-driven rather than stepping-motor-driven
units, (for which provision was made on the later Western Digital floppy
controllers) capable of stepping microseconds rather than milliseconds.
I also have quite a few enclosures, power supplies, cardcages,
motherboards, and other boards, mostly CPU's, FDC's, memory and I/O, some
as yet unassembled, some under repair, some fully functional.
Does this give you any suggestions?
regards,
Dick
----------
> From: Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Cromemco Dazzler
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 9:30 AM
>
> [Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> > I was digging throught the pile of "stuff" from days of old, and find I
> > have a board-set (S-100) which is a Cromemco (remember them?) Dazzler
video
> > board set. I don't remember using this for anything. What probably
> > happened is that I read the doc's and determined it was indadequate for
my
> > purpose and set it aside . . . the box (the cardboard box in which it
was
> > pacakged by Cromemco, looks like sh*t but the contents were apparently
> > unharmed by the passage of 20 years, of which most were spent in the
junk
> > pile.
>
> The Dazzler produces a 128X128 resolution color raster image on a color
> monitor, or TV set if you use an RF modulator. It was the second board
> that Cromemco produced.
>
> >
> > Is anyone interested?
> >
>
> Sounds like something interesting to put in this Cromemco computer that
i'm
> upgrading, so i'd be interested in it. Do you have the documentation, or
> any of the software (the game of life, kaleidoscope, dazzle writer)
>
> -Lawrence LeMay
Some weeks ago, I promised someone on this forum the XEBEC hard disk drive
I had removed from an enclosure I bought at a local thrift store. I
couldn't find it that day and indicated I'd have to do the easter egg hunt,
but now have lost track of who asked me for it.
Any takers?
Dick
.
This outfit built useful microcomputers at a time when microcomputers were
really not that useful to the average person. Imagine that!
Dick
----------
> From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: My Lucky Day!
> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 9:28 PM
>
> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have docs for the Altair 8" drive? I need to find out
if
> > everything is here and how to hook it up. Does anyone have any good
URLs
> > for the Alpha Micro stuff? I don't know what all these cards and stuff
> > are. There's some very strange looking stuff in it.
>
> www.alphamicro.com
>
> They're still around making stuff. Their tech support guys are pretty
> cool about answering questions about old stuff, and they even indicated
> they would still help me out on this 68010-based box of theirs (circa
> 1986) that I picked up a little while back.
>
> Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Always hasslin' the man.
>
> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 02/15/99]
Sellam said:
>VZ200, eh? Interesting. Maybe you Oz-nerds can shed some light on this.
>I recently acquired a Dynasty Smart Alec Jr. Its a small computer with a
>chiclet keyboard. Almost reminds me of a Mattel Aquarius. Anyway, on the
>bottom the label reads that its a model VZ200, made by VTech (or Video
>Technology) circa 1982. Is this the same thing perhaps as a Dick Smith
>VZ200?
As Andrew Davie said, seems so. I have the VZ200 and VZ300 as sold by Dick
Smith, and the VZ 200 manual says copyright Video Technology 1983 on the
first page.
To all "Oz-nerds" (as opposed to Yank-nerds or Limey-nerds?:) - in the book
"Programming the Dick Smith Electronics VZ300 Personal Computer" by Tim
Hartnell, there is a section on attaching a disk drive (Cat X-7302) via a
floppy disk controller (X-7304) which can take two drives. You also need the
16K memory expansion (X-7306). I have the latter, but I have never laid eyes
on a VZ disk drive. I assume they are rare - if you had the sort of money I
expect they wanted for them in 1986-7 (the system units were still being
advertised in Aust Personal Computer in June 1987 for $A169 including
datacasette and 4 programs) you would have bought a better computer!
The boot screen with the disk drive attached is supposed to say
VIDEO TECHNOLOGY
DOS BASIC V1.2
READY
So has anyone ever seen that?
Phil
in Brisbane, Australia.
Actually, I see both name and e-mail address as you can see below.
- don
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:08:28 -0500
From: Phil Clayton <musicman38(a)mindspring.com>
Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Email Question
I've noticed that when send email to Classiccmp my email address
shows up instead of my name.
However others users have their name instead of their email address.
Is this a setting on my end, or is it the way I am setup on this forum.?
If its on my end how do I change it?
Phil...
-----Original Message-----
From: Lance Lyon <black(a)gco.apana.org.au>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, 20 February 1999 7:05
Subject: Re: Latest finds....
>
>
>Phil Guerney wrote:
>
>> To all "Oz-nerds" (as opposed to Yank-nerds or Limey-nerds?:) - in the
book
>> "Programming the Dick Smith Electronics VZ300 Personal Computer" by Tim
>> Hartnell, there is a section on attaching a disk drive (Cat X-7302) via a
>> floppy disk controller (X-7304) which can take two drives. You also need
the
>> 16K memory expansion (X-7306
I seem to recall seeing a memory expansion for a VZ computer in a s/h shop
just up the road.
I'll take a look and post the info if anyone is interested.
Cheers
Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au
Yes. It is a PDP11 based system with A/D and D/A modules. I have 2 here
mostly complete. (missing the RX02's)
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 7:02 PM
Subject: My Lucky Day PS MINC
>BTW does anyone have a MINC (sp?) computer? This guy says that he used to
>have one and he still has a lot of disks for it.
>
> Joe
>
Does anyone know if you can purchase "handles" like the ones that appear on
DEC OMNIBUS boards? (flip chip handles). One could drill out some old
boards and make them but I'd prefer to have a source of new ones if possible.
--Chuck
Jeff,
I tried a ST-251-1 but it wouldn't work. Here's the story:
I picked up a HP 9133XV drive with a bad drive in it. The XV is the one
that you can partion into 4 so that it looks like 4 HP 9895 floppy drives
to the system. It's the only hard drive that can be used on the HP 85, 150
and some of the others. This one has a Seagate ST-419 drive in. I replaced
it with a Seagate ST-251 that has the same number of heads but more tracks
and is smaller and faster. The system recognizes if but it won't format it.
It says that the drives are bad. I'd like to get it running again since the
XV drives are hard to find.
The 251 does have fewer sectors (17 vs 32). I don't know if that's why
it failed or not.
Joe
At 10:00 PM 2/17/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Joe:
>
>If you really need one of these, I may be able to dredge one up for you
>(or at least one with similar geometry); but like the other guy says,
>just about any drive with six heads ought to work.
>
>BTW-- I will be sending you the 'stuff' tomorrow; it took me awhile
>to get my act together.
>
>Ciao.
>
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:53:14 Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> writes:
>> I need a Seagate ST-419 to replace one that failed in a HP
>>computer.
>>Anyone got one to spare?
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
Latest buy from the Resource Shop attached to Glenorchy tip was a box
containing 6 Atari 2600 consoles, plus 40 odd C64 floppies & about 20
cartridges for the Ataris. I'm keeping the C= disks, but if anyone in Oz
is willing to pay postage, they can have the Ataris & carts (I don't
collect 'em - but for $10 I couldn't say no :-) ) Oh yeah, there's a
Dick Smith VZ200 put aside for me as well, again, I don't really want
it, but will forward it to someone who does (they want $8 for it,
includes tape deck & two joysticks).
cheers,
Lance
>BTW does anyone have a MINC (sp?) computer? This guy says that he used
>to have one and he still has a lot of disks for it.
I wish I had a MINC... I have a couple of Mini-MINCs (as the PDT-11/150
with the EIS/FIS was referred to, apparently). It is a pdp-11, so it
runs RT-11.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
I'm afraid that I haven't found any documentation that could help me
understand how to use OS278 or PAL. A few specific questions, if there's
no online users' guide of any sort:
How do I access the second floppy drive?
How do I make an empty file?
Please give me an example of what command you would enter to make a PAL
'Hello, World!' program, save it, and run it. Thanks
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
Security concerns?
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: What the hell is this!!! was Re: I need a ST-419 hard drive
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 2/18/99 2:19 PM
>On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
>
>> I need a Seagate ST-419 to replace one that failed in a HP computer.
>> Anyone got one to spare?
I opened up the 419 drive, No wonder it failed, someone drilled a 5/16"
hole thru the cover and all three platters! This thing was mounted under a
circuit board and inside a steel case. Everything was very neatly put back
together. Who would go to that much trouble to wreck a drive and why?
Joe
------ Message Header Follows ------
Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com
(PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm))
id AA-1999Feb18.141931.1767.100595; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:19:34 -0500
Received: from host (server(a)lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13])
by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with SMTP id
LAA29647;
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:16:53 -0800
Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8])
by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id LAA2
8480
for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:16:45 -0800
Received: from star1.intellistar.net (star1.intellistar.net [206.105.64.2])
by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id LAA10
573
for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:16:44 -0800
Received: from lizard ([206.105.68.186]) by star1.intellistar.net
(Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-41809U2500L250S0)
with SMTP id AAB2534 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>;
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:16:41 -0500
Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19990218151716.305fe37c(a)intellistar.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:17:16
Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
Precedence: bulk
From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: What the hell is this!!! was Re: I need a ST-419 hard drive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.05.9902171742270.9256-100000(a)crash.cts.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.19990217185314.305f1cc0(a)intellistar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Sender: rigdonj(a)intellistar.net
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
I have a noisy ST 251 hard drive. It sounds like the bearings.
Is it heretical to think I may be able to lubricate the bearings?
They appear to be easily accessible on the bottom of the drive.
Thanks,
Dave
The Dayton Hamfest is a fabulous show. It is THE LARGEST amateur radio convention [it's "official" purpose]. The Hara arena is a very good size facility, I'd guess in the over 100,000 sq. ft. range (perhaps WAY over), and it's all indoor, heated/air conditioned [not that it works with 35,000 people in the facility], and all commercial vendors, many, many of which are used computer and surplus dealers (there is lots of new stuff also). It's about 60%-70% computer, the rest general electronics and communications [radio] equipment.
The flea market takes up the entire parking lot, in excess of 2,500 vendors. There are many commercial exhibits in the parking lot also, you will find a number of very large tents (10,000 square feet range each). Mendelson surplus always has a large tent, and almost every year Radio Shack [as in Tandy] collects their entire surplus and returned merchandise stuff from all over the nation and sends it all to a big tent at the Dayton Hamfest where it is sold for often ten cents on the retail dollar. However they didn't do this last year, for the first time I can remember, but they still had a huge indoor exhibit with many items, new, at 25% to 50% below normal store and catalog prices.
The show is logistically difficult to attend for several reasons. First, it brings in so many people [over 25,000 plus a large local population] that poor Dayton, which is hardly a tourist mecca, is complete swamped. You can forget about finding a hotel at this point, the people who do this show get their reservations a year in advance. You may have to stay in Columbus or Cincinnati [both about 70 miles away], fortunately both are directly on an interstate highway and it's not a bad drive. The other problem is parking, since the entire lot is flea market there isn't any ! There are some LARGE fields around the complex that are used for parking, expect to pay $5 to $10 per day, and they are not paved, or very close, which become a real issue in bad weather. Then there are remote lots with busses, but that's a hassle also.
The show is May 14, 15, 16.
Here is an alternative, the Dayton Microcomputer association has a twice a year computer show at the same site. It's just about as large as the Hamfest, and it's ALL computer. There is no flea market, the parking lot is used for - surprise ! - PARKING ! It's almost like having 3 Dayton Hamfests a year, except that two of them don't have the flea market. This year's dates (it's only a two-day show):
Spring: March 13-14
Summer/Fall: August 28-29
I plan to attend all 3 events.
I don't read German But the pictures are perfectly understandable...
http://www.zock.com/8-Bit/D_Laser200.HTML
>> VZ200, eh? Interesting. Maybe you Oz-nerds can shed some light on this.
>> I recently acquired a Dynasty Smart Alec Jr. Its a small computer with a
>> chiclet keyboard. Almost reminds me of a Mattel Aquarius. Anyway, on
the
>> bottom the label reads that its a model VZ200, made by VTech (or Video
>> Technology) circa 1982. Is this the same thing perhaps as a Dick Smith
>> VZ200?
>>
>>
>
>It certainly sounds like it, I believe the VZ200 was cloned as something
else in
>England (can't recall off hand the name of it). But the year & keyboard
match. Is
>it a white case ?
>cheers,
> Lance
>
>
>
<I finally picked up the DECMate III that was at my uncle's house. The WPS
<binders and software got thrown away, but I suppose I could download that
<stuff from SunSite. I have been told that this is a PDP-8. Is it possible
You can get os/278 as well.
<to use 8" disks with this? It only has a dual 5.25" drive (RX50?).
Yes they are RX50s. There was no provision for 8" disks on the DMIII.
FYI: 8" RX01 were 512blocks (256k), 8" RX02 were 1000blocks(512k) and RX50s
are 800blocks (400k). So the 5.25 media is really nicer.
<Forgive me, I am not familiar with DEC machines. Oh, and one more thing.
<Can the screen/keyboard be replaced with a PC running a terminal emulator?
<The screen is attached via a 15-pin cable but otherwise resembles a
<VT-220. Thanks.
No. It expects a VRR201 monitor and a LK201 or LK401 keyboard. There are
two serial ports, modem and serial printer.
The chances of getting those are really good around here (eastern MA) and if
by may you don't have one the MIT flea is a good shot.
Allison
Hey Joe!
I went down to the junkyard near where I worked, and
managed to turn not one, not two, but *three*
HP 9133XV's! There were also "V"'s a "D", and an "H".
I grabbed one of the XV's, and plan to test it with my
9816. If the platters are in good condix, would you be
interested? I could even just pull the HDD unit (14.8Mb :)
and send *that* if you like!
Jeff
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
On 17 Feb 99 at 9:29, Arlen Michaels wrote:
> I've never heard of the M(icro)SOKit 68, but I'm wondering how many other
> enterprising teachers designed their own small systems for training?
>
> I have a "U of T 6809" board, a teaching aid developed by the University of
> Toronto in the early 80s and manufactured for them by a Toronto company. At
> one time they were even advertised nationally in one of the Canadian hobby
> electronics magazines. It was a single-board system with a monitor/debugger
> in eprom, and you'd run it from a terminal. You could develop programs
> on-board, or download 6809 code from a host system and run it on the card.
>
> Does anyone else have one of these?
>
> Arlen Michaels
>
> --
> Arlen Michaels amichael(a)nortelnetworks.com
>
Hi Arlen, nice to see you're still lurking.
The manual I have was a 3rd edition dated 1982, (the 2nd 1981) so he must
have sold quite a few of these. The company was known as CompuKits and
TMK was marketed widely in N. A. His name IIRC Was Jim Reiss. I'll have to see
if he's still at my old alma mater. It's possible the one you're talking about
was a later model if he joined the Uof T faculty.
The built kit looked really neat. Everything was entered from the console by
toggle switches or pushbuttons and it had LED indicators. It had provisions to
expand memory allowing use of Motorola's MIKBUG monitor ROM to interface with a
T-T or RS232 device as well as a provision to add 256 bytes of non-volatile
memory. You could expand memory up to 8k x 8 static ram and suggests you use
the less expensive and smaller chips like the 2102 rather than the 6810s used
in RAM 1 and RAM 2. Would be an interesting project to build one, if I ever get
the time.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
No... It has been a long while since I read it too but IIRC the article was
something like 'How to teach a matchbook to play tic tac toe'
- Mike: dogas(a)leading.net
-----Original Message-----
From: blstuart(a)bellsouth.net <blstuart(a)bellsouth.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: question about viruses
>In message <01be5b3b$65657aa0$d3c962cf@devlaptop>, "Mike" writes:
>>Speaking of _Adikesence of P1_ .... Does anyone know the SciAm issue date
>>for the referenced matchbook neural net ???
>
>It's been a long time since I read the book (I really should
>read it again, now that the subject has come up). But if
>he're refering to the article I think, it's by Martin
>Gardner. Unfortunately, I can't find a full reference.
>(Somewhere I've got a photocopy of it, but I can't find it
>right now.) Anyway, I do find that it came from a 1962 issue.
>
>In the article, Gardner defines (I can't remember if he references
>anyone else) a simple game played with six pawns played on a 3x3
>board. Using 24 matchboxes, he shows a learning machine called
>Hexapawn Educational Robot (HER).
>
>I've got a fond spot in my heart for this one of Gardner's
>articles. A simplified version was printed under the title
>"How to Play Hexapawn" in the collection called *The New Reader's
>Digest Treasury for Young Readers,* a copy of which was given to
>me by a relative when I was a kid. It sparked my interest in AI
>which reached it climax about seven years ago when I defended my
>dissertation in machine learning.
>
>Brian L. Stuart
>
I couldn't send e-mail to you.
> book. Still, in my paper, Apple Worm (published in the November
> 1986 issue of Call A.P.P.L.E. magazine - as the cover story), I
> make reference to the book.
That's a name I haven't heard in a while.
What was your involvement with A.P.P.L.E.?
I grew up with the Apple ][. (I mostly played games, although I wrote a few
interesting programs which I may still have.) I've lived in Seattle for the
past 16 years, and my family belonged to A.P.P.L.E. We didn't go to many
meetings. I was the main computer user in the family, but I was much too
young to drive; my mom was almost totally uninterested in computers at the
time, and my dad was only slightly interested.
(Admittedly, I still can't drive, because my vision is not good enough, but
I think you see what I mean. And I only got one good game out of my
parents, which I let them sell -- see below.)
Still, at one time we had a stack of magazines, a lowercase chip for our
Apple ][+, something else (came in a plastic bag with a white manual, like
the lowercase chip, except the title was in yellow instead of orange...
maybe related to accounting? I don't remember), The Graphics Magician (?)
and its companion program, The Mummy's Curse, and assorted public-domain
disks. This was all from A.P.P.L.E.
I'm not nearly as Apple-centric as I used to be (for example, I now
appreciate the design of the Atari and Commodore, which I basically sneered
at when I was younger; and I'm experienced enough to understand the ]['s
flaws). But I still feel fond about my Apples. The access to machine
language is still a strong point, the disk system has an admirable design,
and some of the software produced for the ][ still amazes me. And we sold
the software we had and now I'm looking for some replacement items. :(
-- Derek
On Thursday, February 18, 1999 10:17 AM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] wrote:
> >On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
> >
> >> I need a Seagate ST-419 to replace one that failed in a HP computer.
> >> Anyone got one to spare?
>
> I opened up the 419 drive, No wonder it failed, someone drilled a 5/16"
> hole thru the cover and all three platters! This thing was mounted under a
> circuit board and inside a steel case. Everything was very neatly put back
> together. Who would go to that much trouble to wreck a drive and why?
>
> Joe
Joe,
Drill about 18 more and put it up for auction ;-)
Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
Ok, so I'm not a big calculator collector. ;-) However, I did pick up a
neat little box recently, one that I'd like to (a) find out, ballpark, what
similar units have been going for on the swap market, and (b), use it
myself for a while.
What I've gotten is an HP-65, in pretty darn good shape, in its hard case
with a bunch of the program pacs and all its manuals. I know I've got at
least one, possibly two EE pacs, a stat pac, and others that I've not
looked at just yet.
The batteries are dead, of course, so I think I'd like to get them
replaced at least. Are they generic NiCds or what?
Thanks in advance.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
Yep, its the same thang, Sellam.
I have the manual for this machine. There is a similar machine, the VZ-300.
A
--
Andrew Davie adavie(a)mad.scientist.com
Museum of Soviet Calculators
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html
Yahoo! Netscape, New Scientist, The Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and UK
Independant Cool Site!
>VZ200, eh? Interesting. Maybe you Oz-nerds can shed some light on this.
>I recently acquired a Dynasty Smart Alec Jr. Its a small computer with a
>chiclet keyboard. Almost reminds me of a Mattel Aquarius. Anyway, on the
>bottom the label reads that its a model VZ200, made by VTech (or Video
>Technology) circa 1982. Is this the same thing perhaps as a Dick Smith
>VZ200?
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>Gads! I've heard of reformatting old drives for security reasones, but
>this one takes the Cake... Quick and easy way to eliminate a data
>getting in the wrong hands I guess..
Quick and easy way of removing a few bytes, that's all.
As I mentioned previously, there are companies which specialize
in data recovery from disks... and the disks don't even have to be
operational.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Anyone have any boards made by CESI in their PDP8/e ? I have a bunch of
advertizement fliers describing many of these boards, if somoene is
interested in the information. They made a replacement cpu board and
quite a few other boards.
-Lawrence LeMay
Speaking of _Adikesence of P1_ .... Does anyone know the SciAm issue date
for the referenced matchbook neural net ???
Thanks
- Mike: Dogas(a)leading.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Derek Peschel <dpeschel(a)u.washington.edu>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: question about viruses
>> _Adolesence of P1_ was mid-70s. I just got another copy at a thrift
>> store. Is it any good?
>
>I haven't read most of it. But if you want to learn about: a) how OS/360
>works, and b) how little computer power you really need for an
artificially-
>intelligent program (*smirk*), this is the book for you.
Can someone tell me the difference between a Memorex Model 101 and Model
102, and between a Fujitsu Model 2301 and Model 2302?
Thanks.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always hasslin' the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 02/15/99]
Wouldn't it just be quicker to remove all the partitions? And if the extra
time is taken to reformat it, the drive can be sold if it is still usable.
In the case that the hole was drilled through it, the drive may have died,
leaving no way to reformat it.
--
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
-----Original Message-----
From: musicman38(a)mindspring.com <musicman38(a)mindspring.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: What the hell is this!!! was Re: I need a ST-419 hard drive
>
>--- I opened up the 419 drive, No wonder it failed, someone drilled a 5/16"
>>hole thru the cover and all three platters! This thing was mounted under
a
>>circuit board and inside a steel case. Everything was very neatly put back
>>together. Who would go to that much trouble to wreck a drive and why?
>>
>> Joe
>
>Gads! I've heard of reformatting old drives for security reasones, but this
>one takes the Cake...
>Quick and easy way to eliminate a data getting in the wrong hands I guess..
>
>
>
<Allison,
< Do you remember a worm that some sysadmin (North, South Carolina or
<someplace like
<that?) turned loose on his systems, back around 89-90, and _forgot_ to
<isolate his network from the general DECnet? I sure do.. Spent most of a
Yes... I had to put securepak on VIDSYS:: and it was the first time the
vax crashed seems there rev levels were a bit off. The machine was never
quite as stable after that until I reinstalled when 5.3-2 came out. The
istability was an inherited problem from the former sysop and system
owner. I still have VIDSYS:: and it's still running 5.4-4 and securepak
though I've trimed as much as I dare off.
Allison
First off it's ok, I'm ok!
<Allison wrote:
<> FYI the speed attained at
<> that point is some 3600mph far from orbital velocity.
<
<I'm not sure how to parse that. Are you saying that it was traveling at
<3600 MPH, which is far from orbital velocity (i.e., a missing comma), or
<that it was travelling at 3600 MPH less than orbital velocity?
Sorry bout that. I do tend to be a tad graphlexic the comma should have been
there. It was velocity of 3600. they need 17500+ to orbit.
<(In any case, the use of the word velocity is incorrect. Velocity is
<a vector, as I had drilled into me in Physics class.)
Their forward speed, velocity. I'm a pilot and am quite used to having
vectors influence the direction and speed that is indicated vs ground
track.
<The NASA reference I posted earlier claims:
< At this point in its trajectory, while traveling at a Mach number
< of 1.92 at an altitude of 46,000 feet, the Challenger was totally
< enveloped in the explosive burn.
Downrange groundtrack speed is far lower as the vector is still mostly
vertical (still greater than 60degrees) at that part of the mission.
If memory serves the debrie field was a rough footprint of 20 wide by
80 miles long (for the greater part of the material).
As to what computer... Not sure myself totally. It's my belief that the
IBMs are high level systems management computers and they command the
engine computers. The engines have their own local computers to handle
their realtime needs. Same applies to several other systems.
I consider spacecraft/aviation computers to be both classic and of great
interest. Most are very system and mission specific thus may be nothing
more than sequential controllers. Still, I'm curious.
Allison
--- I opened up the 419 drive, No wonder it failed, someone drilled a 5/16"
>hole thru the cover and all three platters! This thing was mounted under a
>circuit board and inside a steel case. Everything was very neatly put back
>together. Who would go to that much trouble to wreck a drive and why?
>
> Joe
Gads! I've heard of reformatting old drives for security reasones, but this
one takes the Cake...
Quick and easy way to eliminate a data getting in the wrong hands I guess..
I have this weird drive on an old mini (Honeywell DPS6). These things
have an internal fixed disk, plus, you have to put in a disk pack in
them also. Well, on one of my drives, the belt that runs between the
drive spindle and the motor broke. Where can I find a replacement?
Manufacturer: Magnetic Peripheral
Equip ID# BJ7D3-A
Part # 77708003
Series Code 01
Another thing, I think the drive might be refurbished or something. On
the serial number on one of them, atleast (the working drive) it has a
hand-written "R" after the number.
Anybody who can help me, please do. In fact, if you can help me with
anything about the DPS6 or with GCOS6, I will be forever thankful. From
what I've heard, GCOS6 is sort of a GCOS/Unix hybrid. Should be
interesting.
Also, if by chance, you know of an old Unix variant that would run on
this baby, that could be nice too. I think having an old 7th edition
Unix system would be nice. However, I think having GCOS6 would be
really nice, too.
Regards,
J.S. Havard
Head Geek
The Seven Sages Project
Regards,
J.S. Havard
-
----=(enigma(a)intop.net)=----------------------------------------------
This message was sponsored in part by John Havard. Copywrong (c)
1998 by John Havard under the terms and conditions of no sort of
public license. All prices subject to change. Void where prohibited.
Tax, title, and license fees not included. All rights reserved.
------------------------=(www.intop.net/~enigma/)=--------------------
I doubt it was security concerns, since there are companies which can
recover data from all the parts of the platters which weren't drilled.
Either that, or the security person who ordered it really doesn't know
what they're doing...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
>Phil Clayton wrote:
>>
>> Purchased a Sanyo MBC 550 today at the local thrift for $3.50..
>> Just the CPU, no monitor or Keyboard..
>> Haven't really tested it yet, but I did power it up with no monitor or
keyboard
>> and it tried to access drive A:
>> Wonder if this thing has any real value.
>> Anyone know how many of them were produced ?
>
>I was over at the thrift store today, and saw a Sanyo MBC 555 and the
>monitor for $1.91 each; don't know if it had a keyboard or not. I have
>three of them here along with keyboards, and two monitors.
Can you get me a monitor & keyboard ?
I goto the thrift stores all the time here in Fort Myers, FL
and have never seen one of these in all the piles of computers I rumage
through all the time. Must depend on where you live.
I guess I will box this thing up and add it to my ever increasing collection
of obsolite computers taking up more and more space in my garage.
And I thought I got a good buy at only $3.50.. <Grin>!!!
Phil...
-----Original Message-----
From: Cameron Kaiser <ckaiser(a)oa.ptloma.edu>
>::Greetings Dyslexia of Borg, I am Typo from the planet Vulcan.
>Hmm, my sister and I came up with
Damn, you figured it out... I'm your long lost sister...
;)
Well, if you mean the rescue I think you mean, it's actually in the Indian
Ocean. That's where the Challenger went down. The fuel tank and solids
(booster rockets) went down near Florida, but the Challenger went down on
the far side of Africa if memory serves me.
I, along with others, had the job of analyzing the potential failure modes
in the engine controller in the wake of the Challenger accident. It's
quite an interesting device, considering it's made of really old and simple
TTL logic with plated wire memory (faster, though not much, than core of
that generation). It had no stack, and therefore a different way of
"calling" a subroutine, requiring you to have your program store in
read/write memory. This ultimately meant that flaws masked by the
redundancy of the system could become "inherited" from one mission to the
next. There were other pitfalls as well.
Dick
----------
> From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Who invented the internet?
> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 11:53 AM
>
> On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> > It's somewhat divergent from the current topic, but it might interest
some
> > to know that the Honeywell '516 is the engine control computer which
was
> > still in use on the space shuttle at the time of the Challenger
accident.
> > There were two, one redundant, for each engine, of which I believe
there
> > were three.
>
> Do I sense a potential rescue mission somewhere off the coast of Florida?
>
> Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Always hasslin' the man.
>
> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 02/15/99]
On Wednesday, February 17, 1999 3:10 PM, Michael Grigoni
[SMTP:msg@computerpro.com] wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> PIC has quoted price and availability for the two HP-85 Calculator belts
> as follows:
>
>
> > EPS0175A125N $1.71/ea Stock
> >
> >
> > EPS0080A250N $2.33/ea Stock
>
>
> They have a $50.00 minimum order. Who all wants to join in an order
> large enough to justify the minimum?
>
> Michael Grigoni
> Cybertheque Museum
>
Michael,
Are those belts problematic?
I have a real nice HP-85 here but, have never really used it. If the belts
are likely to deterioriate or fail, I wouldn't mind having an extra set.
BTW: If anyone has an extra set of manuals for a HP85, I could sure use
them. Of course, I'm willing to pay a _fair_ price. Are there any good
on-line resources for HP85 programming and operation?
Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
I am repeating my offer for a free C-64/C-128(D) -compatible 9-pin
dot-matrix printer, an Okidata 120, available for free to anyone in the
Boston, MA area. I am also willing to ship it within the continental USA
for the price of shipping. It goes to the thrift store this weekend.
Thanks.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
I'm not at all certain about any of the mission details regarding the
January 1986 (final) Challenger mission. I will yield to your obviously
more accurate and current information. Having known that I'm gradually
going soft in the head for some time, I'm not surprised or concerned that
don't remember precise details about the final Challenger mission.
I am quite certain, however, that the documents and schematics which were
given to me as part of a FMEA/CIL team, which was a part of the NASA
"shuttle-return-to-flight" mission the following fall, were relating to the
Honeywell 516. These were not the main computers, of which there are
several, but only the engine controllers, which are configured as redundant
pairs, one for each engine. There was talk of a plan on the table at the
time to replace these with something smaller and lighter, using
semiconductor memory and having other features, but the one which we spent
half a year studying, at great expense to the taxpayer, and which was
purported to be used as that controller was definitely the Honeywell 516.
Perhaps there were other more popular models of that number, but the one on
the shuttles at that time were all of this type.
These were NOT the main computers on the shuttle, but rather the dedicated
main engine controllers. The IBM numbers to which you refer do sound to me
like the main computers. Analysis of the engine controllers, however, is
what our assigned task was, and that's what I remember. I don't suppose
they would have had 50 or so of us working for six months on something that
wasn't involved. It's conceivable, however, that there are several
versions of this processor. It doesn't seem reasonable that they would
have used two of a processor weighing what you attribute to the 516. 2.5
cu meters, however, is a small room, and sounds like approximately a 6'
rack cabinet, or maybe even a pair. Are you perhaps including a bit of
packaging hardware? What's used to control the engine is the processor.
The technology is of the same vintage as the DEC PDP-8's I've seen, with
hand-wired backplanes and built from ttl-msi. This one used plated wire
memory, since that was a mite faster (1 us) than the core of the time(1.2
us).
Let's see . . . the IBM AP-101S uses 1/40 cu Meter . . . that's a bit less
than a cu. ftm 30 kg and 550 watts. . . . seems reasonable. That they
later used one of its IOP's to replace the old model in use on the
Challenger and other shuttles at the time seems reasonable as well.
Unlike the defense industry and certainly unlike the commercial computer
industry, the domain of flight hardware is controlled by "proven-reliable"
hardware, so the "current" technology of the time, and the shuttle was
designed in the late '60's and built in the '70's, was not the technology
of choice. What's more, the engines in use in the early-mid '80's were
hand-tweaked hangar queens, not some sort of production hardware. The
controllers used "proven" software, which reflected all the caveats of the
NASA policy of the time. It's not always the latest technology that you
want on your 2-billion-dollar aircraft, but rather the most reliable that
does the job.
Dick
----------
> From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: [OT] Space shuttle explosions and computers (was Re: Who
invented the internet?)
> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 9:49 PM
>
> Allison wrote:
> > FYI the speed attained at
> > that point is some 3600mph far from orbital velocity.
>
> I'm not sure how to parse that. Are you saying that it was traveling at
> 3600 MPH, which is far from orbital velocity (i.e., a missing comma), or
> that it was travelling at 3600 MPH less than orbital velocity?
>
> (In any case, the use of the word velocity is incorrect. Velocity is
> a vector, as I had drilled into me in Physics class.)
>
> The NASA reference I posted earlier claims:
> At this point in its trajectory, while traveling at a Mach number
> of 1.92 at an altitude of 46,000 feet, the Challenger was totally
> enveloped in the explosive burn.
>
> The best information I have suggests that the Space Shuttle does not
> use the Honeywell DDP-516 in any capacity, and that engine control is
performed
> by the some of the IOP processors that are part of the IBM AP-101S
> computers. The entire AP-101S, including both the GPC and IOP, occupies
> about 0.025 cubic meters, masses about 30 Kg, and consumes about 550 W.
> A DDP-516 occupies about 2.5 cubic meters, masses about 250 Kg, and
consumes
> over 1000 W.
>
> The AP-101S replaced an earlier AP-101B computer that was twice the size.
> Anybody know where I can find one for my collection? :-)
I guess we'll have to see what information is available on the net about
that January 1986 event. I do seem to recall that the flight was about 2
minutes 10+ seconds underway when the ship hit the fan, so to speak. The
entire trip into orbit only required about 8.5 minutes, so they were a fair
piece of the way along.
My recollection is that they were searching off Florida for the boosters,
but in the Indian Ocean to recover the shuttle and the bodies. There was a
lot of talk about the 8 minutes or so that it took for the shuttle to hit
the water after things went bad. I could be mistaken, of course. It
wouldn't be the first time . . .
Dick
----------
> From: Ward D. Griffiths III <gram(a)cnct.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Who invented the internet?
> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 3:48 PM
>
> On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> > Well, if you mean the rescue I think you mean, it's actually in the
Indian
> > Ocean. That's where the Challenger went down. The fuel tank and
solids
> > (booster rockets) went down near Florida, but the Challenger went down
on
> > the far side of Africa if memory serves me.
>
> The Challenger was nowhere near suborbital when the explosion took
> place. Everything landed off the coast of Florida.
> --
> Ward Griffiths
> "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge
then
> you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
Doug wrote:
> I've heard that UCLA hosted Arpanet node #1 (I've also heard that BBN was
> supposed to host node #0, but their IMP didn't work), but I've never heard
> of Kleinrock....
There's a very entertaining and informative article by "Mr. Protocol" in
SunExpert magazine Feb 98 entitled "Mr. Protocol Looks Back" at
<http://sun.expert.com/C1/SE.C1.FEB.98.pdf>. Well worth reading, all about
early Internet history and the machines in play. (Check out the rest of Mr.
P's archives at the parent link[s]!).
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Robert Lund | "So many good ones, and so many bad ones; +
+ lundo(a)interport.net | that's what you get for trying." +
+ New York City | Dutch Schultz, last words +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I just went to Len's homepage, and from what I can tell, based on the research
and reading that I've done, the story as put forth in his bio is accurate. Licklider
had forseen a worldwide (actually, galactic) network where information was
accessible to anyone, anywhere. Kleinrock did describe how packet switching
would work in his dissertation. Plus, the UCLA team was under his command.
ARPA was under Bob Taylor (later to run PARC), but Taylor's job was to
assemble the people to make it happen, and Kleinrock was one of them.
If you get a chance to see the PBS series, Kleinrock is interviewed several
times. You probably don't know his name because most of the guys from
ARPA and PARC are unknowns. They are responsible for inventing most of
today's computer technology, but other guys were much better at exploiting
their inventions and assuming credit for them (not to mention anybill's name.....)
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
> Does anyone know of any early (pre-1990) computers, other than the early
> Toshibas, that used the parallel port to access an external floppy drive
> (or other external storage device)? Thanks!
(-: Roger, that's a very foolish thing to say on Classiccmp. For startres:
An "Early" computer does _not_ mean "pre-1990". More like "pre-1960".
Lots of pre-1990 machines used a parallel port to talk to floppy disk
drives. HP and Commodore machines used HPIB/GPIB for example. And yes,
that was the printer port on those machines too.
Need I go on?
Philip. :-)
(I think someone else has already given a sensible answer, so I have no
qualms about posting the above)
Thanks to all for your responses so far. We now have enough interest to
place an order for eleven sets of belts. I'll wait another few days to
collect any other responses to get a final count.
> Greetings,
>
> PIC has quoted price and availability for the two HP-85 > Calculator
> belts
> as follows:
>
> > EPS0175A125N $1.71/ea Stock
> >
> >
> > EPS0080A250N $2.33/ea Stock
>
> They have a $50.00 minimum order. Who all wants to join in an > order
> large enough to justify the minimum?
>
Michael Grigoni
Cybertheque Museum
Wow, UPS delivered 3 hrs ago and I'm still trying to dig myself out of the
pile. You gotta love those 145lb UPS deliveries. My Thinker Toys S100
homebrew system came in with several little supprises. The basic system is
a Wunderbuss with 2 8" Shugarts, 2 exetron Stringy Drives (with 30
cartridges), and 13 s100 cards, 1 wirewrap, and one card that's a I don't
know what... Pictures and restoration log publishing pending.
Some of the cooler docs include
Intel MSC-4 Micro Computer Set Users Manual Jan 1972 Rev. 1 ;) !!!
"" Sept 1974 Rev. 5
Intel MSC-8 8008 8-bit Parallel Central Processor Unit Users Manual
March 1973 Rev. 3
Processor Technology Extended Cassette BASIC Users Manual Jan 1978
Gotta go, I hear the siren song. More later
- Mike: dogas(a)leading.net
<Well, if you mean the rescue I think you mean, it's actually in the Indian
<Ocean. That's where the Challenger went down. The fuel tank and solids
<(booster rockets) went down near Florida, but the Challenger went down on
<the far side of Africa if memory serves me.
Challenger went down near Florida as well
The failure mode was the Solids burnt through the Orings joining the
segments and cooked the main tank, boom.
<"calling" a subroutine, requiring you to have your program store in
<read/write memory. This ultimately meant that flaws masked by the
<redundancy of the system could become "inherited" from one mission to the
<next. There were other pitfalls as well.
Can't see why, RW memory lost it's contents on power down and the plated
wire was rom for the most part.
Allison
Sorry I don't have any paper tapes here so I know I don't have the cable.
Most later DEC cables I probably have however.
Dan
>BC08-J
>
>>
>> I probably do but where are they used. I don't keep my cables sorted by
>> part #.
>
>They're the cables that link a PC05 paper tape punch to a PC11 interface
>card (or at least that's what Jay wants them for). 40 pin Berg on one
>end, 36 pin PCB on the other.
>
>> Dan
>
>-tony
>
Hey folks,
Here's some Heath User Group magazines and a third-party Heath computer
publication. They cover the H8, H89/Z90, H/Z100 and some H/Z150 series
machines. If interested give him a shout.
--Chris
>Priority: normal
>X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d)
>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:10:01 -0800
>Reply-To: "Kennan H. Hollingsworth" <kholly(a)SPRYNET.COM>
>Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List <HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV>
>From: "Kennan H. Hollingsworth" <kholly(a)SPRYNET.COM>
>Subject: Remark and Sextant
>To: HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV
>
>I have many REMARK magazines from years past that I have
>saved and no longer can find room for. Anyone interested? If so,
>respond and I will list what issues I have. Would prefer to get rid of
>them all at once.
>
>Also have a large number of SEXTANT magazines. Again, if
>interested I will list them.
>Ken Hollingsworth <kholly(a)sprynet.com>
>
>--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --
>To subscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov
>and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname
>To unsubscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov
>and in body: signoff HEATH
>Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives
>--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa
Greetings,
PIC has quoted price and availability for the two HP-85 Calculator belts
as follows:
> EPS0175A125N $1.71/ea Stock
>
>
> EPS0080A250N $2.33/ea Stock
They have a $50.00 minimum order. Who all wants to join in an order
large enough to justify the minimum?
Michael Grigoni
Cybertheque Museum
I have a good working Apple IIC Plus with the Apple monochrome monitor and
an Apple 5 1/4" external disk drive that I don't need. I'll take offers for
it in either cash or trade. If I don't get any fair offers, it's off to
E-OverPay. I'm interested in S-100 stuff, NorthStar OS software, and/or HP
computers or calculators.
Joe
At 12:39 AM 2/17/99 +0000, you wrote:
>> Seeing as he said 'the parallel port' I would assume he meant _THE_
>> parallel port as in 'the D-25 female connector with the pinout that was
>
>In which case you're restricting it to PCs and clones only I would think.
Okay, I'll try to be more clear... 8^)
(And yes, I know "early" is the 50's around here. 8^)
What I'm researching is computers that used the Centronics parallel port to
access a floppy drive or other storage device. Mostly interested in PC's
and compatibles, or computers that use a "PC-compatible" centronics port
(like the Atari ST).
It needs to be controlled by software only (no A/B/PRT switch like some
Toshibas) and ideally needs no re-configuration before switching between
drive and printer (or better still, offers a pass-through for the printer.)
HP-IB/GPIB/IEEE-488 is interesting, and somewhat related, but not entirely
relevant; same for SASI & SCSI. Also, anything after 1990 or so is too new.
Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Could any one point me to a source for the history of viruses and
computer worms. I'm doing a recearch paper and I'm looking for sources.
Thanks
CharlesII(a)nwohio.net
I probably do but where are they used. I don't keep my cables sorted by
part #.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay West <jlwest(a)tseinc.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 4:53 PM
Subject: Looking for two BC08-J cables
>Would anyone happen to have two BC08-J cables lying around?
>
>I'm in need :)
>
>Thanks!
>
>Jay West
>
At 12:45 PM 2/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Michael Grigoni wrote:
>
>> PIC has quoted price and availability for the two HP-85 Calculator belts
>> as follows:
>
>Are we talking about the same HP85 that's the size of an Apple ][?
Yes.
How
>would one wear that on a belt?
You wouldn't. It's belts for the integral printer.
Joe
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Always hasslin' the man.
>
> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 02/15/99]
>
>
Make that a _cancer_ charity...
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Eros
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 3:31 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: RE: FWD from alt.folklore.computers
Possibly, but I remember seeing an eBay auction last year that was
structured in a similar way. Winning bid went to a cancel charity
(I
think...)
-- Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com [SMTP:SUPRDAVE@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 3:13 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: FWD from alt.folklore.computers
In a message dated 2/17/99 11:48:17 AM Pacific Standard
Time,
steverob(a)hotoffice.com writes:
<< My wife's aunt just cleaned out her closet and gave us a
digi-comp 1 in
excellent shape with all the manuals, box, etc. I see from
previous
discussion that this is a beloved object to many of
you.Since I
don't want
to profit on her (pre)spring cleaning, I would be happy to
ship the
unit to
the first person who would be willing to make a $500
donation to
the
charity of my choosing (for a 40% bracket, that is a $300
net
expense).I
will be happy to confirm contents and quality of the unit
with
_serious_
purchasers. Since this is a charitable donation, I will not
go down
on the
price (if no buyers emerge by March 1st, it's off to ebay).
It will
be sold
first come, first served basis.Please, no haggling, and I
hope that
we can
find a nice home for this little red computer, while
supporting a
worthy
charity as well. Best regards,Lionel >>
i'll be willing to bet one of my old computers that any of
the ebay
profit
wouldnt goto charity...
> On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com wrote:
>> steverob(a)hotoffice.com writes:
>> << My wife's aunt just cleaned out her closet and gave us a digi-comp 1 in
>> excellent shape with all the manuals, box, etc. I see from previous
>
> "All the manuals"? There's the rather slender "Manual" and the
> assembly instructions. That's all that ever came with mine, long gone.
Maybe she bought the other manuals - there was a manual of detailed
explanations of the various "experiments" (cost: $1), a "Digi-Comp Romps"
booklet of games and clever tricks, and possibly another book of additional
serious experiments.
My Digicomp also came with a brochure for the other ESR products: Digi-comp
2, Dr. Nim, and Think-a-dot.
--Larry Groebe
(new! webpage for Digicomp fans:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/friendsofdigicomp)
In a message dated 2/17/99 11:48:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
steverob(a)hotoffice.com writes:
<< My wife's aunt just cleaned out her closet and gave us a digi-comp 1 in
excellent shape with all the manuals, box, etc. I see from previous
discussion that this is a beloved object to many of you.Since I don't want
to profit on her (pre)spring cleaning, I would be happy to ship the unit to
the first person who would be willing to make a $500 donation to the
charity of my choosing (for a 40% bracket, that is a $300 net expense).I
will be happy to confirm contents and quality of the unit with _serious_
purchasers. Since this is a charitable donation, I will not go down on the
price (if no buyers emerge by March 1st, it's off to ebay). It will be sold
first come, first served basis.Please, no haggling, and I hope that we can
find a nice home for this little red computer, while supporting a worthy
charity as well. Best regards,Lionel >>
i'll be willing to bet one of my old computers that any of the ebay profit
wouldnt goto charity...
Possibly, but I remember seeing an eBay auction last year that was
structured in a similar way. Winning bid went to a cancel charity (I
think...)
-- Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com [SMTP:SUPRDAVE@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 3:13 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: FWD from alt.folklore.computers
In a message dated 2/17/99 11:48:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
steverob(a)hotoffice.com writes:
<< My wife's aunt just cleaned out her closet and gave us a
digi-comp 1 in
excellent shape with all the manuals, box, etc. I see from previous
discussion that this is a beloved object to many of you.Since I
don't want
to profit on her (pre)spring cleaning, I would be happy to ship the
unit to
the first person who would be willing to make a $500 donation to
the
charity of my choosing (for a 40% bracket, that is a $300 net
expense).I
will be happy to confirm contents and quality of the unit with
_serious_
purchasers. Since this is a charitable donation, I will not go down
on the
price (if no buyers emerge by March 1st, it's off to ebay). It will
be sold
first come, first served basis.Please, no haggling, and I hope that
we can
find a nice home for this little red computer, while supporting a
worthy
charity as well. Best regards,Lionel >>
i'll be willing to bet one of my old computers that any of the ebay
profit
wouldnt goto charity...
It's somewhat divergent from the current topic, but it might interest some
to know that the Honeywell '516 is the engine control computer which was
still in use on the space shuttle at the time of the Challenger accident.
There were two, one redundant, for each engine, of which I believe there
were three.
Dick
----------
> From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Who invented the internet?
> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 1:36 AM
>
> On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Doug wrote:
>
> > I was searching the web for a picture of a Honeywell IMP (DDP-516), and
I
> > found one sitting on the home page of Leonard Kleinrock,
self-proclaimed
> > Inventor of the Internet:
> > http://millennium.cs.ucla.edu/LK/Inet/birth.html
>
> He certainly has an interesting story for such a major contribution to
> computing since I've never heard of him either.
>
> Get this:
>
> "In this work, he developed the basic principles of packet switching,
thus
> providing the fundamental underpinnings for that technology."
>
> As far as I know the concept of packet switching was first described by
> Paul Baran of the Rand Corporation (see a timeline at
> http://www.unc.edu/courses/jomc050/pioneers3.html. Interestingly enough
> the name "Kleinrock" does not show up anywhere in this list).
>
> But this guy certainly takes the liberty of practically taking full
credit
> for single-handedly inventing the internet.
>
> How about this:
>
> "More recently, Kleinrock has taken the leading role in the new
technology
> of Nomadic Computing and Communications; the idea is to create a
> technology that will support the nomadic user in his computing and
> communication needs as he travels from place to place."
>
> This has already been pioneered by Steven Roberts and his BEHEMOTH (see
> http://www.doitsports.com/biketour/tolman/nomad.htm).
>
> Does this dude have an original idea?
>
> This guy seems to like to take credit for stuff other people invented. I
> hate guys like that. Maybe this is a scam web site like that one that
was
> posted last year about the one dude who purportedly single-handedly
> invented the personal computer and the GUI (didn't that guy also claim to
> have invented the internet?)
>
> Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Always hasslin' the man.
>
> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 02/15/99]
Found this in another news group. Please reply to the original poster not
this group...
<CLIP>
DIGI-COMP 1 FOR SALE
My wife's aunt just cleaned out her closet and gave us a digi-comp 1 in
excellent shape with all the manuals, box, etc. I see from previous
discussion that this is a beloved object to many of you.Since I don't want
to profit on her (pre)spring cleaning, I would be happy to ship the unit to
the first person who would be willing to make a $500 donation to the
charity of my choosing (for a 40% bracket, that is a $300 net expense).I
will be happy to confirm contents and quality of the unit with _serious_
purchasers. Since this is a charitable donation, I will not go down on the
price (if no buyers emerge by March 1st, it's off to ebay). It will be sold
first come, first served basis.Please, no haggling, and I hope that we can
find a nice home for this little red computer, while supporting a worthy
charity as well. Best regards,Lionel
zuckier(a)aecom.yu.edu
</CLIP>
Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
<In which case you're restricting it to PCs and clones only I would think.
<
<The PC printer port has 12 outputs and 5 inputs IIRC. But for a _printer_
<you really only need to have the 8 data lines, strobe and either ack or
<busy. The others can normally be ignored. But non-printer PC parallel
<port devices often use all 17 lines for whatever purpose (e.g. reading a
<nybble in on 4 of the 5 inputs)
The implmentationwas full centronics parallel. The extra inputs are
PAPER OUT and a few other status indicators.
<Before that, centronics ports tended to be the 36 pin amphenol connector.
<But there were other printer port standards as well - like Data Products
<that was used on some line printers. And of course serial printer ports
<(RS232, current loop, etc).
Commonly it was 34 or 40 pin card edge or the amphenol that we see on the
back of the printer but 37 pin DB connectors were used as well.
In the olden days there were two common and nearly similar parallel ports.
Data Products (also used for DEC LP25/26/27) and Centronics.
Allison
>At 11:11 AM 2/15/99 -0500, Phil wrote:
>>Purchased a Sanyo MBC 550 today at the local thrift for $3.50..
> Then you paid about $3.50 too much!
>>Just the CPU, no monitor or Keyboard..
> OOPS! The keyboard is special, only the Sanyo one will work on the 550.
>>Anyone know how many of them were produced ?
>
> Lots and lots and lots. I used to see them all over.
>
> Joe
Joe, I know that you a special love for these machines (Sanyo 550) I have
read your comments on the forum on the one you soaked so much money in
trying to get it to run.. (HeHe)!!!
Maybe they are worth collecting in the fact that they could possibly be the
most "Incompatible" "Compatible" early DOS machine ever produced.. <HeHe>!!
Anyway if they are so plentiful in Orlando how about getting me a Keyboard
and a monitor for it.. <Grin>!!
I still have some have some change left from the $3.50 I paid for the CPU...
Phil...
BTW: The Clerk at the Thrift store was convinced it was a VCR, and now that
I look at it, it does look very much like a VCR..
Same size, Same color (Metal Gray / Black Front)..
OK that makes it collectable Right !!!!
"In the year 2525 (If man is still alive, if woman can survive) Commodore 64
computers will still be plentiful and routinely sold at Garage Sales"
I've never heard of the M(icro)SOKit 68, but I'm wondering how many other
enterprising teachers designed their own small systems for training?
I have a "U of T 6809" board, a teaching aid developed by the University of
Toronto in the early 80s and manufactured for them by a Toronto company. At
one time they were even advertised nationally in one of the Canadian hobby
electronics magazines. It was a single-board system with a monitor/debugger
in eprom, and you'd run it from a terminal. You could develop programs
on-board, or download 6809 code from a host system and run it on the card.
Does anyone else have one of these?
Arlen Michaels
On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Lawrence Walker" <lwalker(a)mail.interlog.com> wrote:
> In 1983 at the end of taking a digital tech course at a community
> college
> here in Toronto at George Brown CC, I spent about a month assembling and
> debugging a trainer kit that my prof was marketing, similar but more
> sophisticated than the Heathkit ET34400. It was called a M(icro)SOKit 68.
> It was based , of course, like the ET3400 on the M6800 CPU. Does anyone
> have
> one of these out there ? It was geared to teach students about micros by
> building their own micro. I know he sold a number of them, but don't know
> how
> many. I have the manual, parts #s, etc. if anyone is interested. Included
> in
> the manual is a couple of pages of layouts obviously meant to be
> photocopied
> and etched.
>
> ciao larry
> lwalker(a)interlog.com
>
--
Arlen Michaels amichael(a)nortelnetworks.com