- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 24.3.1999 15:57:21 Eastern Standard Time, lwalker(a)mail.interlog.com writes: > > Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2 machines: a PS/2 P70 386 > > portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience > > with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember > > when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and > > the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc. > > > > I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the > > power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and > the > > whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with > > the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play > than > > with many peripherals on Win 9x machines. > > > The PS/2 is one of the lines I collect. They were a remarkable machine. > Unfortunately IBM goofed in charging exhorbitant liscensing fees for the > MCA which gave birth to the EISA consortium. I have an 8530 (XT model), > 8557 (386,SCSI and fast UART), 8560 (tower 286), 8570-A21 (386, my fastest > at 25mhz with coprocesser and cache) , 8580 (386, introduced PS/2 MCA line > and VGA (on planar), tower, built like a tank-my favorite) and several > spares. > Want a P70 and 95 to fill out the line. > MCA was PnP before it became a "feature" The major drawback is the > availability and price of the cards. Virtually all the PS/2s were easily > disassembled. > > > Some questions: > > > > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it > > seems quite nice. > > > MCA, EISA, and the price. The 8580 sold for $10,000 bare. It's still used > quite > extensively in the corporate world tho. > > > 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives > > have to be ESDI drives? > > > As others have mentioned ESDI is ESDI, but cards are available for IDE or > SCSI. > > > 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with > > an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run > > their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? > > > IBM still supplies but as in all things IBM at hugely inflated prices. > There > are several alternate sources which the "MCA Mafia" on the PS2 newsgroup > can apprise you of. > > > 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at > > all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were > > passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC- DOS > > 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, > > > but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a > > floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But > > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > There was a discussion regarding this recently (and earlier) on the > newsgroup. > Some models have info re set-up on the HD, and if you erase this when > fomatting > there are certain steps you must do to reinstall the reference info. Can't > remember the details but the "MCA Mafia" are quite helpful. You could also > check out Peter Wendt's site to see if there's anything regarding this > problem. > > http://members.aol.com/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm > you can also visit IBM canada at: www.can.ibm.com/helpware/vintage.html there is info on family 1 and ps2 products. I got from a good source that the reason MCA was discontinued was because if the bus speed was increased in order to keep up with PCI, that would have started encroaching on the RS/6K machines. Also, MCA was expensive because extensive development had to be done to every card. Every MCA option/device was GUARANTEED to work. None of this plugandpray stuff. supr 'love my PS/2s' dave

26 years, 11 months

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Seller's market

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 11:08 AM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >The messages by some of the participants shows that they really do not >understand [or perhaps do not want] the concept of a free market. What they >really want is a highly imperfect market so that they can buy things at low >prices even though there are people around who are willing to pay more >[given the presumption that all sellers will sell to the highest bidder ..... Well said. >But, perhaps a better way would be for E-Bay to create a new class of >"Bonded Buyers and Sellers", Sounds a lot like a high feedback rating to me... >in which E-Bay has credit card numbers from both buyer and seller, and both >buyer and seller have agreed to binding arbritration by a 3rd party [E-Bay]. except that that opens eBay up to a lot of legal responsibility that they're probably quite happy to avoid. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

26 years, 11 months

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sellers market

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 11:34 AM 3/20/99 -0700, you wrote: >the belief that no one will outbid that value, and then abort the >transaction after the auction ends. This gets the auctioneer paid at the >seller's expense, yet costs me nothing. Next month I use a different email >account to identify myself, and all's well with eBay. Actually, if the item doesn't sell (bidder backs out) the seller doesn't have to pay eBay. And it does cost you something -- negative feedback on the old account and no feedback on the new account. Destroys that sense of trust everyone is so fond of. (And I seem to recall someone mentioning that eBay requires a credit card if you're coming from one of the free services.) BTW, everyone pisses and moans about eBay in regards to classic computers, but they forget that you *can* get really good deals on other types of collectibles through eBay. (I've gotten deals on: cookware, donald duck stuff, miniature land rovers, buttons, etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by mbg＠world.std.com

>You mean things like GT40 lunar lander, which is (IMHO) a classic game... I have the source for that... a copy of the source that Max.B and I hacked on years ago (1976/77) to get it working on a pdp-11/40 based VT11/VR14... I think it is more up-to-date than is available on the web... I'll have to track it down... There were some changes we had to make for a different clock (KW11-P) and adjusting some values on the intensity of some vectors which hit by the light pen... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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sellers market

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 05:15 PM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote: >Yes, an open market WITH MECHANISMS IN PLACE TO ENCOURAGE THE RAMPANT >ESCALATION OF PRICES BEYOND ANY REASONABLE ASSUMPTION OF "FAIR MARKET >VALUE"! Look me straight in the eye and tell me that you think the way >ebay structures its service does not lead to unreasonable price Are you referring to something eBay does specifically, or to auctions in general? If the latter, you need to go a little further back in history than eBay to place blame. >The price an idiot decides to pay for a certain something does not and >should not define what the rest of us should have to pay! No, but it does define what an opportunist can expect other idiots to pay. And until there are no more idiots, there will always be opportunists waiting in line to separate them from their money. >Without ebay, do you honestly think that people would be regularly paying >$3,000 for Altairs and IMSAIs? Of course not! Take ebay, remove their >silly auction mechanisms, replace them with a basic best-offer paradigm Sure they would, but they would be doing it through small ads in the back of InfoWorld, Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, etc. And instead of ending up in the hands of someone like Alex (no offense, Alex!) who actually knows what they are and will preserve them, if not actually use them, they would end up on Mrs. Rittenhouse's coffee table being used as a magazine rack. If you don't believe me, take a look in the back of the NYer, Smithsonian, etc. and you'll see all kinds of artifacts listed for sale as decorative items. (Things like carousel horses, radios, old sewing machines, gas station pumps, etc.) >Appreciate sure, but based on rational, measurable attributes. But to be Everything appreciates in value *solely* based on the quantity available, number of people who want it, and the ability of the current owner to contact as many of the potential market as possible. If I've got the only fliggleblaster in the world, and there are 200 people who want one, the value will go up *if* I can get in touch with those 200 people. If instead, I look at my fliggleblaster and think "Geez, look at this old P.O.S., nobody would ever want this" and stick it back on the shelf, its value is nil. Likewise, if I post it on eBay, and exactly 0 people in the world want one, it won't sell for even a cent. But, when you can get in touch with buyers, and they're actually interested, then your value goes up. The more buyers, the more uncommon the item, the higher the price. That's why auctions have been around for centuries. All eBay does is put sellers in touch with potential buyers. (And yes, people know the word "Altair", but that simply affects the number of people interested; it's not eBay's fault.) >There is hoarding going on by individuals hoping to cash in years from now >when they expect this ridiculous craze to hit a fevered pitch. At the >rate we're going, if this keeps up then nobody will be able to afford >anything older than 1990, and that will be a god damn shame. There was a guy (whose name escapes me at the moment) who advertised in all the papers that he would pay an exorbitant amount of money for a particular coin (and yes, I should know the details). No one ever found one; he knew that all 5 examples were already accounted for. But, it got people looking at their pocket change, and offering him other old/interesting coins. He built quite a business out of it too. And I know a number of people who regularly take trips to Mexico, the Philippines, etc. looking for antiques that they buy dirt cheap, bring back to the states, and sell for outrageous prices to collectors and decorators. As long as there are idiots out there... All you can do is kill all the stupid people. (Or, kill all the greedy people, but they reproduce faster than you can make bullets. Hmmm... For that matter, stupid people reproduce even faster. Sorry.) >them). But when people realize that there is an alternative, they may >forsake ebay altogether in preference to a more sane environment like a >buy/sell/trade board. You WILL build a loyal following eventually and you You will build a loyal following of eBay sellers who buy stuff cheap from you and sell it for $$$ on eBay. Duh. Sure, sell me an Altair for $50, and watch me fidget and squirm as I try not to parlay that into a new bathroom because of "principles". >That's a silly statement. Of course you see no alternatives because no >one yet has dared tried to build one. Instead of being discouraging, its Um, actually, there is an alternative, and Marvin has mentioned it once or twice. Build a reputation and those that are not simply after $$$ will give their computers to you. There's nothing you can do about the guy who wants $10K for his vic-20 and not a penny less, but the guy who wants his beloved Sharp PC-5000 to have a good home may just send it to you for the cost of shipping. As for collector-to-collector trades, there is a medium for that as well, and you're looking at it. >Ebay has done nothing but to cut out the footwork for the lazy people, >and charge them a premium for it. Ta-da! And there you have it. The secret of getting rich. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

26 years, 11 months

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Museums

by dogas＠leading.net

Someone else mentioned a inter 'library/museum' loan system that I think can also be ironed out. I'd like to schedule a few checkouts and I also have some diverse stuff that could go on the circut... - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

26 years, 11 months

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Museums

by dogas＠leading.net

-----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 9:44 PM Subject: Re: Museums >>Saxonville, Mass. When I called, I was told that all they had left was >>a 2500 sq-ft area... at *$8* per sq-ft. That's US$20000 (I believe for >>a year), $1667/month. If this could be a club formed as a non-profit >>organization, and if I could get $10/month out of people, we'd need >>167 members just to pay for the space... Then we have electric, which >>I would suspect will be a major part of the cost for such a power-oriented >>hobby. > >Don't forget this is America, land of the lawsuit, something like this >would potentially need some hefty insurance because of all the "dangerous >items". > I would also imagine the museum brick and morter will have to be electronically shielded to allow things like trs-80 mod 1s to operate in a commercial zone. - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

26 years, 11 months

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More details was: HP stuff

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I'd need the part number to be sure... but... if that's what I think it >is you're a very lucky camper. >That sounds like the HP Network Analyzer. It is sold as a Laptop unit >with custom HP network monitoring software. It is an HP4972A... Lan Protocol Analyzer 68010 processor Bootrom 4.0 keyboard Graphics HP-IB HP98628 at 20 2096992 bytes >If that's what I think it is - it is a CURRENT product, and sells for >anywhere from $15,000.00 to $60,000.00 depending on the options it has. wow... I didn't know that... I'm still using it at work... but need for it is waning a little, what with FDDI, Token Ring, ATM, etc... (unless it has options for other network media) I'll have to find out what price I might be able to get it for when/if it is excessed... it may be beyond me... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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.DSK files.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus/ >> >> Just FTP there from your RT-11 system and you're set! > I may be going about this all wrong. > Firstly FTPing stuff implies an FTP client on the target system >and a modem. Modems I have, but how to get RSTS to talk to them is >not clear to me at this point on my learning curve. Acquiring and >installing Kermit and/or FTP software is something I want to do, but >have no clue presently. All in due time I suppose. I don't know of any FTP for a RSTS/E (or RSTS) machine, but there are several commercial and one freeware package for real RT-11 internet connectivity. See http://shop-pdp.kent.edu/ for information on the freeware package. > BUT: Do I really need RT11 to use the programs on the tapes, if >they will work under RSTS? I imagine not... so the real question is, >can I unpack the .DSK file uner RSTS V9.7? Good question! If there's some way that you can do a "file to device" copy under RSTS/E, then you'll be able to copy the .DSK to a real disk and then mount that as a RT-11 volume. I've never done this on RSTS/E, but if you ask where all the experts hang out (comp.os.rsts) you'll probably get a good answer. Note that I've written several tools for manipulating RT-11 .DSK files on "foreign" systems, and many classic Unices shipped with similar tools. The RT-11 filesystem is simple enough that such tools are easy to write. See http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/ldto… for a tool that I've suggested in the past when folks have asked "how can I read a .DSK without a real RT-11 system?" -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 11 months

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.DSK files.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> I am trying to use some DECUS tapes which I obtained; they exist >on tape as one large file with extent .DSK . > Any info on how I can get started unpacking thses files? Others have already told you about MOUNT, but if you just want easy access to the unpacked files, all the RT-11 DECUS SIG tapes (about 300 Megabytes worth) are available by anonymous FTP from ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus/ Just FTP there from your RT-11 system and you're set! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 11 months

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Big Commodore PET Haul - trades? for sale?

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu> wrote: > > Hmm.... I _do_ have a 25Mhz NeXT slab > > Hmm, what is required to duplicate an OS disk for an old NeXT cube? If > memory serves, they used some sort of optical disk. NeXT cubes did ship with an optical disk. I have a slab. It has room inside for a 3.5" SCSI disk and has a 2.88Mb floppy for removable media. It is monochrome and otherwise resembles (from point of view of the software that runs on it) a faster version of the cube. I haven't seen a cube up close since they first came out. Perhaps people wanted to find out if the case really was made of magnesium and set them on fire? :-) -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 11 months

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FW: PDP-11/83 looking for good home

by kyrrin＠my-dejanews.com

Arrrgh! Why couldn't this guy have been in north Seattle or something? I've been hunting for an 11/83! Anyone in Ohio looking for a nice PDP in a Worldbox? Attachment follows. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 -0500, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>From: matuscak(a)rohrer.com (Joe Matuscak) >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec >>Subject: PDP-11/83 looking for good home >>Message-ID: <MPG.1162bfd24561aa4989684(a)news-server.neo.rr.com> >>X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 >>Lines: 13 >>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 -0500 >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.210.200.18 >>X-Complaints-To: abuse(a)neo.rr.com >>X-Trace: dustdevil.neo.rr.com 922285509 204.210.200.18 (Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 EDT) >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:25:09 EDT >>Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online -- Northeast Ohio >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!newsbox.grin.net!pants.skycache.com!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.210.223.23!dustdevil.neo.rr.com!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.dec:89 >> >>We have a PDP-11/83 system (BA123 worldbox, 2 DHQ11, RD54, TK50, LA120, >>LA324) that is looking for a home. It's running MicroRSTS and is working. >>We are located in northeast Ohio. Call or email me. >> >>Thanks, >> >>-- >>Joe Matuscak >>Rohrer Corporation >>717 Seville Road >>Wadsworth, Ohio 44281 >>(330)335-1541 >>matuscak(a)rohrer.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

26 years, 11 months

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PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 24.3.1999 1:41:26 Eastern Standard Time, gregorym(a)cadvision.com writes: > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it > seems quite nice. > > 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives > have to be ESDI drives? > > 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with > an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run > their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? > > 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at > all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were > passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS > 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, > but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a > floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? > ah, the PS/2 models, my favourite. truly state of the art for the time. Its my opinion that MCA didnt fail. Look at all the ps2 stuff you'll find at hamfests and company surplus. I have lots of old software that mentions compatibilties with ps2s, even netware 2.2! One reason I was told it was discontinued was that around 1994, MCA was starting to conflict with the PCI bus machines that were coming out. the model 95 you have is pretty nice. plenty of drive bays and DMA io ports, parity or ECC mem, SCSI with cache, selectable boot drive, worldwide power supply and even that little LED panel that you can even make it say what you want. I know there were 25mhz models upgradeable to 33mhz and a pentium upgrade somewhere. IBM still has their parts counter in boulder, CO. http://www.direct.ibm.com david

26 years, 11 months

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.DSK files.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>4) to disassociate the LD with the file, > type DISMOUNT LDn: >Sounds like you're getting off a horse! Should have >been, probably, UNMOUNT. Nope, it's DISMOUNT. If you've ever got any such doubts about RT-11 commands, just type HELP, or if you don't have a RT-11 system handy at the moment: http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/rthelp/ gives you the RT-11 5.7 HELP information. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 11 months

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Museums

by mbg＠world.std.com

>FWIW there are more than one kind of museum. There is a "Tech museum" >kind that has a bunch of pretty displays behind plexiglass and the >"research" kind. (And a whole bunch that are somewhere in the middle). >If you have privileges at a research museum you can work on and/or use >parts of the collection that are not available for "general" use. I would >expect that a good research computer museum would be a great place to >visit. All this talk of museums... I've been toying with the idea of trying to set up something like that... Along the lines of RCS/RI... I was wondering how such groups got started... how did/do they afford storage places... Are there people in the eastern-mass area who might be interestd in trying to put one together? What I've been thinking of is a place where people can put their systems on display -- static while being worked on, with help >from volunteers, and dynamic once working. At least when working I would hope that people could use a terminal to use/program it. Obviously, not everyone would be allowed to actually touch the innards of a system or the removable bits... that would be reserved for those who have an expressed interest/knowledge of a specific system. Otherwise, people would have to settle for terminal access, or supervised access. I was thinking of contacting the current owners of the Maynard Mill to see if there was any possibility of donation of (or reduced rental) on a space there... it would be neat if some DEC systems could return home for display... What do people think? What if we had a 'chain' of said museums, run by members of the classiccmp list, all over the country... would make it easier to have VCF-east,south, midwest, etc... Pardon my ramblings... I guess I'm disappointed with the Boston Computer Museum, some of what I've heard about the Computer Museum at Moffett field is criminal, plus it is too far away as is VCF, and with my schedule I've been unable to get to RCS/RI... (plus, I know my partner would like to see me move some of my collection out... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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PS/2s nicer than expected; some questions

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

Mark Gregory wrote: >Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2 machines: a PS/2 P70 386 >portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience >with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I remember >when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and >the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc. > >I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the >power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and the >whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with >the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play than >with many peripherals on Win 9x machines. I quite like them too. My favourite machine (although I don't have much software installed on it) is a model 76 with a DX2/66 chip, an original IBM XGA monitor and OS/2 2.1 installed. This combination just seems to work really well. Not classic yet though. > >Some questions: > >1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it >seems quite nice. > I don't think it failed completely. It was widely used in corporate situations. Not built for the shoestring home market. EISA competed with it in it's day and avoided an IBM license fee, and later PCI improved on it. >2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the drives >have to be ESDI drives? > ESDI is ESDI, MFM is MFM and IDE is IDE. They don't mix. >3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced with >an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run >their parts depot in Boulder for old machines? > That will work fine. >3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at >all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were >passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-DOS >6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems fine, >but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a >floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But >without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas? Other than basic stuff like not marking the partition active I don't know about this one. Try checking for bad sectors. Also try fdisk /mbr.

26 years, 11 months

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Pro-350 anyone?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Yes, but apparently it's freely distributable. And in the absence of a <license, I think that implies that derived works are freely distributable <as well. My hypothetical reverse-engineerined "source code" would obviousl <be a derived work. I'd say if it was done non-profit and protpper credit given there would be little room for squawks. I have no idea if that would fly legally, however intent is sometimes important. Allison

26 years, 11 months

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sellers market - firearms + 386 upgrade for sale

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 3/23/99 9:59:17 PM Central Standard Time, bluoval(a)mindspring.com writes: > > E-Bay banned fire arms for two reasons: > Are these reasons official? > > > First, they couldn't do the background checks or check for stolen weapons. > A legally valid reason, but likely an excuse. > > The first is a given, but its not an excuse, its the law. When did this become law? State laws vary, but Texas has no such requirement concerning private sales. So that this message will have some on-topic content: I have some Cyrix 386 to 486 clock-doubled upgrade microprocessors. Box says it upgrades the 386DX-16, 20 and 25 Mhz. Part number is Cx485DRx2-25/50. Three of them in shrinkwrap, 1 opened, I have no clue if it was ever used. Best offer within the next few days. Kelly KFergason(a)aol.com

26 years, 11 months

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Museums

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Megan wrote: > What if we had a 'chain' of said museums, run by members of > the classiccmp list, all over the country... would make it > easier to have VCF-east,south, midwest, etc... All over the country? Is this the right time to try and resurrect VCF-UK? Or even VCF-Europe? Marvin replied: > That is a really good idea! One of the perceptive comments made at last > years VCF was that it was a "social gathering." It was and is wonderful to > be able to meet and talk with others who enjoy collecting this stuff. A BIG > advantage is that any future dealings with people we meet are based on > something other than just email. This personal network of people we know > makes for a higher confidence level with any transactions that might take > place. Hear, hear! Seriously, I think that some sort of permanently-installed VCF type locations, where volunteers could come and work on exhibits, and where (possibly) trade could be carried out, would be very useful. And as I said before, I am prepared to sponsor the UK one to the tune of quite a bit of money, _if_ enough people are committed that there is a chance of making it work. (Once it's got going, I think it should be self supporting from members' subscriptions and possibly trade commissions or visitors' donations, or even commercial sponsorship :-( , but I'm not optimistic enought to think that it would work that well from the start). Philip. PS A model for trade at a permanent VCF. I was introduced to it by my brother when we were both visiting my parents... Large building full of junk. Anyone can go in and browse, and ask prices, buy things, etc. The arrangement is: you have junk you want to sell. Take it in and say "I want X pounds for this widget." The staff either say, "fine" and put it on the shelves, or say "no thanks, we don't think that'll sell (or is legal, or whatever). When someone buys something, the owners of the "trading post" (as it is called) take a commission (I think 25%) and hand the rest to the seller. If it doesn't sell after a certain length of time, they ask the seller to reduce the price or take it away or whatever. P. PPS before anyone flames me for suggesting commercial sponsorship, it would be absolutely necessary to have strict rules like the committee vets all sponsors, no conditions of "must have machine Z on display", etc.

26 years, 11 months

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Pro-350 anyone?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What all is the DEC LK201 used on. I know it works on the Rainbow, Decmat <and now the Pro-350. Was this kind of a general purpose DEC keyboard ? < There's a raft of them in the main branch of the local Goodwil, left behin <when a bunch of Rainbows were either scooped up or junked. Rainbow, DECMATEII/III, Vt2xx, Vaxstations, Pros and on and on. It was the generic keyboard design. the LK3xx and LK4xx series are later, lowercost and interchangeable. <Has F1-12 on top and F13-15 between the main and num keypads next to <term ans, copy, and a square image. It has an 8-trace connector kind of lik <oversized RJ45. No external label but internally has a "Cherry", Waukegan, <label, and B4VE-A302, 51941115 Rev. F. It was manufactored in 84. The <main chip is mounted, 350M 9103, VANILLA, REV C . Anyone got a clue as to <what this is or a need for it ? Sounds like the LK250 used for VAXmate and PC use. Allison

26 years, 11 months

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Museums

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, 24 March 1999 10:03 Subject: Re: Museums >>I think our vision of such a place may be something like a Cybercafe with >>a dedicated place for old computer equipment to be renovated and >>experimented with. Obviously there would be a place for visiting >>computers systems as well as space for "The Collection". Ahem, yes. Mine too. I run an Internet Cafe. We have a big workshop out the back, which is partly filled with Vaxen in various stages of repair/decomposition. As well, I use an 8530/CIBCA? and TU78/TA78 pair as a room divider in the cafe, and a HSC50 and a half height cabinet, with 3 RA81's in it, as a counter. Oh, yeah, there's a 6310 and SA600 (working system) in there too. (Single phase conversion done) There is a large warehouse (ex-bakery) next door, (was a s/h shop but they went broke) that I am trying to rent at a reasonable rate. The landlord currently wants unreasonable rates, by local standards. (it's a small place, 15000 or so) It's perfect, solid building, big doors, concrete floors, 3 phase power (they had electric kilns) and plenty of room for even very big systems, which I hope to specialise in, several desktop machine "museums" around, but very few with big iron it seems. (I'm currently looking for PDP-8, PDP-11, Vax, Prime and IBM "big stuff" in Oz, preferably South Australia) A Cray would be nice too, but no idea where I'd find one.... Any other big systems that list members think might be worthy of inclusion? >>I propose the Cybercafe part to raise enough revenue to pay for the space >>but I down't really know if you could generate enough to keep out of the >>red. Not at the moment, but it looks like it might eventually, diversity is the key, we also do repairs and sell s/h systems. Tea, Coffee, Lollies, drinks and ice-creams do surprisingly well too. In a museum they'd probably do better. Surprisingly good market for $100-200 computers, of the 386/486 variety. People on Unemployment, Supporting Parent and Invalid Pensions can't afford to buy $1500 new computers, and typically just want to play a few games and do a little word processing...... >if I were a little more financially >set (like after winning a lottery), Now that would help, I'd buy the whole damn place off this guy, $100k would buy my shop, the attached house, and the bakery complex..... Seriously, I think your concept is good, biggest headache is floor space, my bet is that you need to set up in a smaller place, a country town, not too far from a big city, but where the rents for warehouse space don't look like the NASA budget. I suspect this is why most museums I've seen/heard of concentrate on desktop stuff, they don't need a huge area to house it. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104

26 years, 11 months

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HP disk drive command set

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

I just sent a CS-80 reference manual to a list member..... Jay West -----Original Message----- From: jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:08 PM Subject: Re: HP disk drive command set >Joe: > >Yes, I could use this; I won't be getting a CS-80 document any time soon. >WOrk continues on the disassembly. I'll be getting a new interface pod >for my logic analyzer in a couple of weeks, so I'll be able to take a >look >around 'inside'. > >Thanks. > > >Jeff > > >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:50:09 Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> writes: >>Jeff, >> >> I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. Do >>you >>still need a copy? >> >> >> Joe >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >

26 years, 11 months

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Wanted: HP RuggedWriters

by sieler＠allegro.com

Hi, I'm visting a client of mine, and when I walked into his office, I saw two HP RuggedWriters opened up, with their parts strewn around. They're trying to combin two broken ones to make one working one. Their business relies on the HP RuggedWriter, which is now obsolete and not supported by HP. If anyone can point me to some used RuggedWriters, I'd appreciate it! thanks, -- Stan Sieler sieler(a)allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/sieler.html

26 years, 11 months

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More details was: HP stuff

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

I'd need the part number to be sure... but... if that's what I think it is you're a very lucky camper. That sounds like the HP Network Analyzer. It is sold as a Laptop unit with custom HP network monitoring software. If that's what I think it is - it is a CURRENT product, and sells for anywhere from $15,000.00 to $60,000.00 depending on the options it has. Let me know the part number and I'll hunt it up for ya. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 5:42 PM Subject: Re: More details was: HP stuff >With all this talk about HP stuff... I have the chance to get ahold >of one of the HP Ethernet network trace units... it is something like >an HP9273 (I'll have to check)... > >It has a 5" Green monitor, flip-down keyboard in the cover, AUI >port. It can boot from 3.5" floppy or internal hard disk (which >may be 20 or so MB...) I think it uses a 68020 processor (?). > >Can this boot something other than the HP network analysis >software? Are there any development tools which someone >can get ahold of which can be used to write software for >it? > >I know I can use it on my home network... but it would be a neat >hack to also be able to develop software for it (maybe see if a >unix port is possible...) > >If anyone can identify it from my somewhat scattered description, >great... if not, I'll get the info and ask again... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > >

26 years, 11 months

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HP phone numbers...

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Here's some handy phone numbers... HP Service Parts Identification: 916-783-0804 I don't know for sure if this number is for public dissemination, but I know they don't ask for a reseller number or anything when you call. They can identify part numbers for you, cross reference part numbers, etc. Generally they can also translate mfg. part numbers to replacement (refurb, etc.) part numbers too. You can get some info just via touch tones, but eventually you can get a real human to look things up for you. This number even has selections for the 1000 series, test and measurement, medical, etc... HP Direct: 800-227-8164 This number is for ordering ANY hp parts. They ask for a reseller number, but this is only to determine discount levels. They will sell to the general public (those without a reseller number) but only at list price. So - this number is definitely "open to the public" as long as you don't mind paying list. Generally when a product is discontinued HP clears the shelves and trashes anything past the EOS (end of support) date. However, when you call HP Direct if the product is not stocked and no longer made, I suggest you ask them for the number for FRD. This is their division which handles remanufactured gear (I don't have the number with me at the moment). They might have that 1972 widget on a shelf... :) There is also a strictly touch tone part ID phone number which I used to have but lost. One of these days I'll ask another CE for it. You punch in the part number and a recording tells you what the product is, what major assembly it goes with, updated (replacement) part numbers, etc. Anyone have this? Finally, if anyone needs a really tough HP part number tracked down, just let me know. I can get access indirectly to the HP internal parts database (PAL) which has every part HP ever made in it. I even tested it out with a dust cover plug from an HP41C calculator and it brought it right up. I don't want to abuse this route with my contact - but if anyone needs that on rare occasion feel free to contact me. Cheers! Jay West

26 years, 11 months

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Museums

by mbg＠world.std.com

>All over the country? > >Is this the right time to try and resurrect VCF-UK? > >Or even VCF-Europe? Whoops... I apologize for being too Ameri-centric... I should know better... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Museums

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I think our vision of such a place may be something like a Cybercafe with >a dedicated place for old computer equipment to be renovated and >experimented with. Obviously there would be a place for visiting >computers systems as well as space for "The Collection". Yes, yes... that's it exactly... >I propose the Cybercafe part to raise enough revenue to pay for the space >but I down't really know if you could generate enough to keep out of the >red. My problem is that I don't have the time to organize it myself, nor the courage to take the risk... if I were a little more financially set (like after winning a lottery), I would consider it, but not right now... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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HP phone numbers...

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Hum, I've generally had good luck with SPID, but most of the old stuff I ask them about is 2000 related which really means "1000 series" for most intents and purposes. Since the 1000 stuff is more "current" perhaps that's why I've had better luck. Also, I must admit going straight to PAL rather than SPID. This avenue is open if you have a request :) Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 3:34 PM Subject: Re: HP phone numbers... >Jay, > > Thanks for posting this but I've never had ANY luck with HP's parts >identification. I recently called about something for a HP9825 and they >swore they'd never made a 9825. Funny since I have about 8 of them sitting >here! They have also told me that there was NEVER a service manual for the >9815 (and others). I later found one. As I said, I have NEVER gotten any >help from them. It's a waste of a time to call them IMO. > > Thanks for the suggestion of the FRD. I'd heard of that but didn't know >how to get ahold of them. > > > BTW for any of you that try to locate docs for HP stuff, don't forget to >ask if they have a PN for the doc on micro-fiche. I've gotten lucky a >couple of times and got docs on fiche that weren't available on paper. > > > > Joe > >At 01:52 PM 3/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Here's some handy phone numbers... >> >>HP Service Parts Identification: 916-783-0804 >>I don't know for sure if this number is for public dissemination, but I know >>they don't ask for a reseller number or anything when you call. They can >>identify part numbers for you, cross reference part numbers, etc. Generally >>they can also translate mfg. part numbers to replacement (refurb, etc.) part >>numbers too. You can get some info just via touch tones, but eventually you >>can get a real human to look things up for you. This number even has >>selections for the 1000 series, test and measurement, medical, etc... >> >>HP Direct: 800-227-8164 >>This number is for ordering ANY hp parts. They ask for a reseller number, >>but this is only to determine discount levels. They will sell to the general >>public (those without a reseller number) but only at list price. So - this >>number is definitely "open to the public" as long as you don't mind paying >>list. >> >>Generally when a product is discontinued HP clears the shelves and trashes >>anything past the EOS (end of support) date. However, when you call HP >>Direct if the product is not stocked and no longer made, I suggest you ask >>them for the number for FRD. This is their division which handles >>remanufactured gear (I don't have the number with me at the moment). They >>might have that 1972 widget on a shelf... :) >> >>There is also a strictly touch tone part ID phone number which I used to >>have but lost. One of these days I'll ask another CE for it. You punch in >>the part number and a recording tells you what the product is, what major >>assembly it goes with, updated (replacement) part numbers, etc. Anyone have >>this? >> >>Finally, if anyone needs a really tough HP part number tracked down, just >>let me know. I can get access indirectly to the HP internal parts database >>(PAL) which has every part HP ever made in it. I even tested it out with a >>dust cover plug from an HP41C calculator and it brought it right up. I don't >>want to abuse this route with my contact - but if anyone needs that on rare >>occasion feel free to contact me. >> >>Cheers! >> >>Jay West >> >> >> >> > >

26 years, 11 months

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CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual - 5955-3442.

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

>CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442. Aw heck, why didn't you guys just say so :) Since in my day job I'm an HP reseller, I just did some checking with my HP sources. The following manual: CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442 (new part number 07957+49A-90003) is available. My cost is $24.00 each plus shipping. Does anyone want me to order some copies and ship? Jay West

26 years, 11 months

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MSCP controller docs?

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

Anyone got docs on programming the UDA50 MSCP controller? -------

26 years, 11 months

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CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual - 5955-3442.

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

I dunno Jay, you better check stock! I called HP about a week ago and they said it was on 'backorder'. They couldn't give me a lead time, either. Hm. I wonder if they were just jerking my chain . . . If they're in stock, put me down for one. Jeff On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:40:03 -0600 "Jay West" <jlwest(a)tseinc.com> writes: >>CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442. > > >Aw heck, why didn't you guys just say so :) > >Since in my day job I'm an HP reseller, I just did some checking with >my HP >sources. The following manual: > >CS/80 Instruction Set Programming Manual, part no. 5955-3442 (new >part >number 07957+49A-90003) is available. My cost is $24.00 each plus >shipping. > >Does anyone want me to order some copies and ship? > >Jay West > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

26 years, 11 months

1
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Toshiba

by dchew＠engr.UVic.CA

Does anyone know how the fn keys work on the Toshiba T3100e40? I have one of these 286 and I have no idea how to use the fn combo with the F# keys. Also how do I get into the setup CMOS in one of these computers? Are there software that I can get to work with it, IE, powersavers and etc? Also how do I get the modem to work on the computer? I have noticed that there are already 2 builtin serial ports, one in back and one on the right hand side. Also what is little round plug used for, that is located on the left hand side of the laptop? Is that little plugin for a INPORT mouse or a Logitec Handheld scanner or what? Some models has a plastic plug in that socket. Thanks dan

26 years, 11 months

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Museums

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

>Actually sharing the Vision -- As long as we're doing the "Vision Thang" I'll kick in my $.018995211 worth. There used to be a nice book store in town called "A Clean Well Lighted Place for Books" and it was unique in that the people who worked there read, and they wanted you to read too. You could pick out a book, read a few chapters, talk with people who probably had already read it, etc. I thought it was really a cool place. So I figured I'd open "A Clean Well Lighted Place to Hack." Kind of the same deal, we'd sell quality technical books in addition to coke and twinkies :-) And one of the coolest parts would be the 'hack wall'. That would be a wall of single board computers and i/o lines from non computers connected to lights, speakers, fans, LED bar signs, etc. The idea being that if you needed something to "target" in order to hack some code the wall was available. Periodically we'd showcase the best "wall hack" where someone had several computers working together to do something cool on with the wall i/o. --Chuck

26 years, 11 months

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Moving Sale

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

Found this reference in another newsgroup. <CLIP> > > We are located in 411 W. River Rd, Elgin, IL 60123. > > Everything at http://www2.iteams.org/webadmin/moving_sale.htm is available. Our prices are highly negotiable. > > Philip > > -- > _______________________________________________________ > Philip Barker phil.barker(a)iteams.org > Asst Manager of Info Systems 847.429.0900 > International Teams - USA http://www.iteams.org </CLIP> Check under the "mini-computer" heading . They have a MICRO VAX II and a MICRO VAX III listed. Orginally, they had a TANDY 16 in the listing. I see that it has been removed :-( Please contact the seller directly. Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm not at all sure I'd let current generation programmers mess with MY computer hardware. Thirty years ago, when programmers were not only the people hunched over a teletype, but also the guys who jumpered the 026 keypunch and knew how to decipher what was on a tape which wouldn't deskew properly, you could trust them to examine without damaging things. Over the past 20 years, however, I've observed that programmers have less and less concept of the reality of the computer in front of them or down the hall at the end of the cable . . . Such individuals would probably do damage, irreparable or otherwise, yet not only fail to grasp that it could happen, but deny it when faced with incontrovertible evidence of their sins. I don't know whether it's better to protect the old hardware, or the people's right to see it. I do know that I've observed perfectly adult-looking individuals doing things to computer equipment not their own, of which I would only accuse a child not tall enough to reach it. just my nickel's worth . . . (inflation) Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >>Do you really think that such a display is an acceptable substitute for >>the real thing? > >Well, I would be very cautious about letting people use the 'real thing' >(see below). > >>If you keep a complete backup of the hard disk (something that's a good >>idea anyway), and possibly substitute the keyboard (if spares for it are >>impossible to obtain), then there's little that can be damaged from >>people using the machine. And an unoriginal keyboard is a lot better than >>an unoriginal CPU > >Yes, that's true. But how would the people use such a machine anyway? I >mean, if you put on a card some instructions, people will just type them >in not understanding the reasons for them, and not get any joy from it. >This is especially true for machines that don't use keyboards and >screens. Let's say we took a DEC running OS/8 and let people use it. What >would they do with it? They might type DIR, say "Oh, it's like DOS" and >walk way. > >>Are you sure about that. Some people are certainly interested in seeing >>how things (computers, steam engines, machine tools, etc) were used. I've >>been to plenty of interesting museums where many exhibits consist of >>somebody demonstrating something. > >Yes, but for a computer there's nothing to watch besides blinking lights. >For a steam engine, you see someone poke firewood, the wheel spinning, >smoke coming out, etc. > > --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) >

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'd say let 'em prove they know enough not to hurt anything before you let them at the "real McCoy" hardware. Test them out on a simulator complete with obscure anomalies, let them prove they won't roach the hard disk or dump the tape on the floor. Of course, I also advocate allowing only those who've passed a test on the issues/candidates vote. How silly can a guy get??? -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:45 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I'm not at all sure I'd let current generation programmers mess with MY >> computer hardware. Thirty years ago, when programmers were not only the >> people hunched over a teletype, but also the guys who jumpered the 026 >> keypunch and knew how to decipher what was on a tape which wouldn't deskew >> properly, you could trust them to examine without damaging things. Over the >> past 20 years, however, I've observed that programmers have less and less >> concept of the reality of the computer in front of them or down the hall at >> the end of the cable . . . >> >> Such individuals would probably do damage, irreparable or otherwise, yet not >> only fail to grasp that it could happen, but deny it when faced with >> incontrovertible evidence of their sins. > >Sure, so then you're in the camp that says lock them up and don't let >anyone ever touch them, much less see them? How then does one learn >anything about them? > >> I don't know whether it's better to protect the old hardware, or the >> people's right to see it. I do know that I've observed perfectly >> adult-looking individuals doing things to computer equipment not their own, >> of which I would only accuse a child not tall enough to reach it. > >If I were serious about creating a "museum" where I wanted people to be >able to handle the artifacts (and by the way, I am) I'd make sure that >each individual would be required to become a member, and membership would >entail some manner of education about proper handling of computer items, >including static discharge procedures, not pulling cards out of a live >system, etc. From basic electronics to storage media handling to >electrical safety precautions. Only after the new member passed this >training and proved competence would he/she be able to actively examine >and experiment with the artifacts. > >This has the side benefit of weeding out the weekend engineers and >ensuring that the truly interested and dedicated get access to the stuff. >The rest just get to look at it :) > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] >

26 years, 11 months

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FW: Toshiba

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

It's the second try at sending this message about getting into cmos. John -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. [mailto:jrkeys@concentric.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 11:48 AM To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Toshiba Just holddown the Fn key while turning on the machine to get into cmos. John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of CHEWSTER WOLFMAN > DAN > Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 2:56 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Toshiba > > > > Does anyone know how the fn keys work on the Toshiba T3100e40? > > I have one of these 286 and I have no idea how to use the fn combo with > the F# keys. > > Also how do I get into the setup CMOS in one of these computers? > Are there software that I can get to work with it, IE, > powersavers and etc? > > Also how do I get the modem to work on the computer? I have noticed that > there are already 2 builtin serial ports, one in back and one on the > right hand side. Also what is little round plug used for, that is located > on the left hand side of the laptop? Is that little plugin for a INPORT > mouse or a Logitec Handheld scanner or what? Some models has a plastic > plug in that socket. > > Thanks > dan > > >

26 years, 11 months

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SoCal TRW Swap meet

by jpl15＠netcom.com

To all classiccmpers who might be in the Southern California area this coming weekend: The TRW Electronics and Ham Radio Swapmeet is this Saturday, the 27th March 1999, from 7:30 am until 11:30 am, at the TRW El Segundo facility. From the 405 (San Diego) freeway, take the Rosecrans exit west, proceed 1 mile to Aviation (under the Metrolink bridge) turn left (south) onto Aviation and go south about three blocks; parking and the Meet are in the southern lots of the plant.. just look for all the antennae on the cars. ;} Persons with Stuff to sell are welcome to use my Spaces (providing there's room); e-mail me privately for further details. Marvin has flaked out this time, so not only will I get all his goodies, we can talk about him behind his back at the After-Swap Classiccmp Brunch, provided anyone shows up for same. All are invited! Cheers John

26 years, 11 months

1
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HP GPIB Cables

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Just in time for all the HP items flowing thru The List: I have gotten about 25 GPIB cables which might be of interest to all you Hewlett-Packard types out there. Price: make offer on a few, U pay shipping... Cheers John

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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deletion and recovery of data

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Slashdot mentioned an interesting article titled "Secure Deletion of Data >from Magnetic and Solid-State Memory," which mentions relatively low-cost techniques for recovering data from supposedly "erased" media, which I suppose could be applied to recovery of data from classic computing devices: <http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html> - John

26 years, 11 months

1
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berman?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Someone posted earlier about some HP stuff at berman. I apologize, but lost the message. In any case, there were several items they mentioned were up this week that I might be interested in. However, I just received the list from BDI and it doesn't appear that such items are on the list. Any ideas? Jay West

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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HP disk drive command set

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

This document has been elusive for quite some time. There are no less than five of us on the list who are seeking it. I would be happy to reproduce/distribute this to all interested parties for cost . . . Jeff On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:57:52 -0600 "Jay West" <jlwest(a)tseinc.com> writes: >I just sent a CS-80 reference manual to a list member..... > >Jay West >-----Original Message----- >From: jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 11:08 PM >Subject: Re: HP disk drive command set > > >>Joe: >> >>Yes, I could use this; I won't be getting a CS-80 document any time >soon. >>WOrk continues on the disassembly. I'll be getting a new interface >pod >>for my logic analyzer in a couple of weeks, so I'll be able to take >a >>look >>around 'inside'. >> >>Thanks. >> >> >>Jeff >> >> >>On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:50:09 Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> writes: >>>Jeff, >>> >>> I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. >Do >>>you >>>still need a copy? >>> >>> >>> Joe >>> >> >>___________________________________________________________________ >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >> > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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Pro-350 anyone?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Since P/OS is "in the public domain" (having been contributed to DECUS), do <that mean that I can in principle reverse engineer it and publish my <reverse-engineered "source code"? Just a comment. No I don't think so. First DEC(Compaq) still holds the copyright and it's free for use, not free of copyright. Also I haven't seen a good disassembler for PDP11 (havent really looked either). Still POS with the programmers toolkit was a nice multiprogramming system with graphics back then. Allison

26 years, 11 months

2
1
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Rebirth of IMSAI

by mbg＠world.std.com

>But seriously, I would require even the most obviously technically astute >person to take some sort of qualifying "quiz" to make sure they indeed >knew what they were doing. If they failed any part of this quiz, they >would then be required to go through the entire informational course so >that they would have all the information needed to minimize (and >hopefully eliminate) any damage they could conceivably cause to any >artifacts. Anyone who would go through the trouble to fulfill this >requirement proves their sincerity and earns the right to access the >materials and artifacts. I like this... Provides education at the same time that you ensure that the systems will be at minimum risk... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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.DSK files.

by jpl15＠netcom.com

I am trying to use some DECUS tapes which I obtained; they exist on tape as one large file with extent .DSK . Any info on how I can get started unpacking thses files? Now that the 9trk works, that is.. :) Cheers and Thanks.. John

26 years, 11 months

4
6
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Rebirth of IMSAI

by rcini＠email.msn.com

On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:05:30 -0500, Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com> wrote: >>The tenative price of $500 seems awfully high to me. After all, it's not >>like there is a lot of R&D involved, the components aren't exactly >>cutting-edge, and to some extent the markets are already established. I don't recall Fischer's Web site quoting a price. I applied the price of $500 to a currently-mythical 25th Anniversary Edition kit which was my $0.02. I don't know if $500 is the right number either, but I figure that in a "new" IMSAI 8080 kit in low quantities, there'd be at least $75 in boards, $100++ for the case, $50 for the power supply, $25 for a silkscreened front panel and the rest, silicon, passives, switches, and the backplane connectors. And that doesn't iinclude any re-engineering costs to account for parts that have been discontinued or marked as "end-of-life." Given what happens when the old IMSAIs hit ePay, I'd pay $500 for a new kit that I could build myself. I don't know if I'd want a Pentium-class IMSAI with a front panel for $1200. I guess it would depend on how faithfully it reproduced/simulated the operation of the original. I also don't know if another bus standard is necessary, too. Personally, I'd prefer a kit, and I think that $500-600 is not unreasonable. I'm sure that if you open this up to the hobbyest community, you'd find enough takers to make a 500-unit quantity production run feasable. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 11 months

9
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HP disk drive command set

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Joe: Yes, I could use this; I won't be getting a CS-80 document any time soon. WOrk continues on the disassembly. I'll be getting a new interface pod for my logic analyzer in a couple of weeks, so I'll be able to take a look around 'inside'. Thanks. Jeff On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:50:09 Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> writes: >Jeff, > > I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. Do >you >still need a copy? > > > Joe > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

.DSK files.

by mbg＠world.std.com

> RT11 docs I have complete.. I can look up the 'logical disk' >stuff there. But if you are doing this on a RSTS machine, there is no concept of logical disks in the V3B RTS... Logical disks weren't added until much later in RT's life... (V5.?) > I think I've not just bitten off more than I can chew.. actually I >think the Sandwich itself is bigger than I am.... ;} Naw... if you get RT running, it should be fine... there was an early logical disk handler submitted to decus some years before we incorporated something similar in the base system. What version of RT-11 do you have to use? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

BDV11 - which ROMs ?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Ok, now the "panel" if you can call it that on the PDP-11/03 BA11-N has <three switches as well (restart (momentary), Halt, and Aux). I assume that <these are connected in some way to the BDV11 internally? tracking the <ribbon cable isn't easy on this chassis. No. they both interact at the bus level so that ribbon from the FP goes to the PS or backplane depending on BA11 model. So you can disable the LTC using either switch (watchout for that too.) and reset/restart using either. If you have all three cpus go with the m8186 (11/23A) as it has memory management and is faster. If the Backplane is Q22 or modified to be Q22 and the BDV11 is also modded then 4mb of ram is possible otherwise your limited to 256k (for most PDP-11 stuff that is plenty!). Allison

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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Pro-350 anyone?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Zane's earlier comment is right on. I have a 380, and it's a semi-alternat <to an 11/23 or 11/73. Although it uses the same chip as the 11/73, its bu <(CTI=Computing Terminal Interconnect) is pretty slow; I think it's an 8-bi <bus that multiplexes everything. Not correct. CTI is very nearly qbus with some simplifications. It is however 16bit. What slows them is the terminal emulation running concurrently and also the disk controllers for both the floppy and the hard disk are SLOW. Still for single user stuff they are ok. For multiuser version of Venix or Unix the serial port and a termianl is far faster! Allison

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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Pro-350 anyone?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Of what use is a DEC Pro-350? It's a PDP-11. It runs a verion of unix called Venix, also RT-11 and POS. The base CPU is the F11 (11/23) chipset and it's fairly fast save for the disks are slow. <I remember someone asking about ethernet as well. This unit has an etherne <connector on the back. Does it have the board though? Allison

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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Data General NOVA2 in 519 area

by cdrmool＠interlog.com

I just noticed in the TOR.FORSALE.COMPUTERS newsgroup an advert for a Data General NOVA 2 "with core memory in a DG rack" call 519-744-2900. I know nothing about this at all other than it looked like something that someone somewhere might somehow be intersted. If its really cool and you get it for virtually nothing, don't tell me. I'm doing everything in my power to ignore it. Painful as ignoring my curiosity may be. Colan

26 years, 11 months

9
12
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Pro-350 anyone?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< 000401 Disk controller < 000034 ram < 000034 ram That was a memory test... <Does Venix use the serial port for the console? No, It used the internal video console and Keyboard. Find a LK201/301/401 keyboard, the cable and a VR201(monochrome) or the Color tube (VR262?) as and of the PRO OSs will expect to use it. Though some OSs can be configured to use the serial port for a terminal (after install). It's a really nice little system and a VR201 is not that large. Allison

26 years, 11 months

2
1
0 0

BAL-500 eprom programmer

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

Found this in the many boxes of apple // goodies i have. Plugged it into my //e and with a PR#7, got a menu and managed to experiment around and messed up an old ami bios keyboard eprom pretty good just for fun. I know it's menu- driven, but anyone have instructions on how to use it. I noticed the status LEDs blinking as it did various things. This thing could come in handy for who knows what... david

26 years, 11 months

3
3
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MVaxII give away...

by mbg＠world.std.com

This was posted in comp.sys.dec... contact the person in the post, not me... - - - - - I have a MicroVAX II (BA23 cabinet?) to give away in SE Minneapolis. It has 5MB of memory, 150MB disk and TK50 tape drive. MicroVMS 4.5 is installed. Unusual boards include Analogic AP500 array processor controller, unfortunately without the AP500 itself. If anybody is interested and can pick it up locally, please let me know. - Marek -- | Marek Behr | (612) 626-8067 | behr(a)arc.umn.edu | | University of Minnesota | -fax- 626-1596 | http://www.arc.umn.edu/~behr |

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

HP disk drive command set

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Jeff, I finally found my copy of the docs for the HP Amigo command set. Do you still need a copy? Joe

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

BDV11 - which ROMs ?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Ok, now the "panel" if you can call it that on the PDP-11/03 BA11-N has >three switches as well (restart (momentary), Halt, and Aux). I assume >that these are connected in some way to the BDV11 internally? tracking >the ribbon cable isn't easy on this chassis. Not really connected to the BDV... the BDV has controls over BHALT and the LTC... but so does the console. They both have to be set correctly for the processor to be in RUN mode. The Restart switch momentarily deasserts DCOK (if I remember correctly). The halt switch enables/disables BHALT (again, IIRC), and the LTC switch allows/disallows line frequency interrupts. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Scorpion whoosie whatsis

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: I just got a bunch of schematics for the main logic board and memory for a Scorpion computer. Does anyone have any info on this machine?? I'm not even sure that it was in production or not. It looks to be based on the 68k processor. I also got some schematics for the Corvus Concept and the Corvus hard disk interface (from IMI?) I'll post these shortly, but any info on the Scorpion is appreciated. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

BDV11 - which ROMs ?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>Here are the details: M8012-YA card with two ROMs labelled: <> <>Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either <>an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... Ok, with the book infront of me... First Qbus-11s boot at 173000, the BDV-11 provides rom from 173000-->173776 (512 bytes), the roms are larger than 512bytes, Most boots are smaller than 512bytes! So those roms contain, Boot time diagnostic and one of the folowing: RK05 (DKn) RL01/2 (DLn) RX01 (DXn) RX02 (DYn) MOPboot via (DUV11, DLV11-E, DLV11-F) (for 23-045E2/046E2 romset) or user supplied rom with boot. the board also supplies a halt/enable switch, Restart switch and BEVENT-L disable. the leds are power OK and diagnostic error. Handy board for Qbus 11 building where the cpu is LSI11(M7264), LSI11/2(m7270) or 11/23(m8186). The later M8189 (11/23b) and 11/73 cards have rom on board. Allison

26 years, 11 months

2
1
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Museums

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

FWIW there are more than one kind of museum. There is a "Tech museum" kind that has a bunch of pretty displays behind plexiglass and the "research" kind. (And a whole bunch that are somewhere in the middle). If you have privileges at a research museum you can work on and/or use parts of the collection that are not available for "general" use. I would expect that a good research computer museum would be a great place to visit. --Chuck

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Re "New" IMSAI

by rcini＠email.msn.com

On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:50:14 -0500, "Barry A. Watzman" <Watzman(a)ibm.net> wrote: >>You are never going to see a "new" IMSAI for $500. One can wish, can't one??? >>In the first place, many of the parts that would be needed for a complete >>system are no longer available. Like what?? I don't have schematics for the IMSAI, but looking at the Altair schemtaics, Jameco has many of the old parts except the 1702A EPROM and the exact RAM (although the 5101 looks like a likely sub). The power supply transformer may be available on the surplus market, or in new production quantities from Signal. >>In the second place, the original IMSAI was not UL approved (or even safe, really) >>and could probably not be sold today. >>In the third place, the original IMSAI was not even close to meeting FCC >>Class A much less B. If the plan is to sell a complete, fully-functional, off-the-shelf unit in CompUSA, then yes I agree UL/CSA approvals (which are expensive) are necessary, as is meeting the FCC emissions regs. However, how many hobbyest projects in Radio-Electronics or Popular Electronics have passed those rigorous tests? I'd guess none. What standards to be met depends on where this is being sold and in what quantities. Also, a redesign of the power supply for common sense safety is not all that difficult. I believe that it *is* possible to produce a slightly re-engineered "25th Anniversary" IMSAI 8080 for a reasonable price. >>Finally, $500 would be cheap for a low-volume copy, regulatory issues aside. Like I said in my original post, I'd bet that it is possible to come close to $500 (profits not included). The hardest part I'd bet is finding a suitable replacement for the enclosure. Maybe $500 isn't the right price; maybe $600 is. Maybe it's $800 with a profit figured in. I'd bet that it's less than $1200, though. If someone will send me a complete bill of materials for a basic IMSAI 8080, I can spend a few minutes pricing out the parts (assuming a 500 qty). >>Do not be surprised when your unrealistic expectations are not realized. Believe me, I won't be surprised. My pricing thesis was not an "expectation" since I hadn't gone through the exercise of pricing out a BOM to test for reasonableness. Maybe I'm all wet, but then again, maybe I'm not. I don't know. I was merely stating what may be possible. Here's my guidepost: the original Altair kit was what, $497. I figured that any cost benefit from {current} lower prices on silicon and passives would be offset by higher prices on harder-to-find parts such as the case, bus connectors and RAM. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Rebirth of IMSAI

by rcini＠email.msn.com

On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:27:06 -0500, "Mike" <dogas(a)leading.net> wrote: >>Why not create a current design for a modern front panel system? ok, retro >>styling because I like the silk screening of the 8800b and the 8080 but with >>*some* modern accoutrements while still providing that front panel >>experience. I think that what Tom is thinking of doing -- a Pentium II-class motherboard joined to an IMSAI front panel with either the S100 or a "new" expansion bus. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

berman?

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

You may want to check out the ALPHA 16. I used to service them and should still have the docs. All of the ones I dealt with were core memory 8 and 16K IIRC. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 6:53 PM Subject: Re: berman? At 06:59 AM 3/22/99 -0600, Jay West wrote: >Anyone know what happened to bermans diversified industries? Is their >website just dead or.... >Jay West They are still there, I went by to be sure. They are completely "clueless" about the web so it may be a couple of days before they get their site back up. (I'm going to see if I can sell them a FreeGate box :-) Interesting stuff in this week's auction: #113 - set of interactive UNIX docs from Sun #109 M/2000 RISComputer (MIPS) #108 TU81+ tape drive #59 Qty 4 "ASR" Silent 700's (with cassette drives) *very* grungy #40 Various boards that look like HP boards one was marked HP 13037-69023 and C-1635 #37 Empty HP21MX frame and another HP21xx frame (no nameplate) HP Rk05 type disk (front loading pizza box) #19 Computer Automation "Alpha-16" front panel and on the pallet apparently the body of this machine. #14 Two HP7970E 1600BPI 9-trk drives #5 Very RARE Sun 75/GT "Graphics Tower" this was part of the Evans & Sutherland joint cooperation program with Sun. Few of these were sold (they cost 100K+) There is also a DECStation 5000/125, a SPARCStation 1+, and a couple of Sun Shoeboxes (external scsi drives) on this pallet. --Chuck

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Seller's market

by fauradon＠pclink.com

I guess what we need is a definite authoritative price list for classic computers like the becket for baseball cards or the blue book for cars etc. This could be a collective or individual effort. Any takers? Francois.

26 years, 11 months

3
2
0 0

Wanted. Coleco vision

by thedm＠sunflower.com

It's the Adam that is only an Adam if you have a colecovision to expand it with. -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Wanted. Coleco vision >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, TheDM wrote: > >> Well, I finally found a Coleco Adam 3. however, this is the version that I >> need a Colecovision game system to play with, anyone have one for sale or >> trade? > >What's a Coleco Adam 3? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] >

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

berman?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Anyone know what happened to bermans diversified industries? Is their website just dead or.... Jay West

26 years, 11 months

2
1
0 0

Wanted. Coleco vision

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Well, I finally found a Coleco Adam 3. however, this is the version that I need a Colecovision game system to play with, anyone have one for sale or trade?

26 years, 11 months

2
1
0 0

sellers market

by stephen.j.gabaly＠lmco.com

> > The Agony of Victory: Online Auctions and the Winner's Curse > > > > By Bruce Gottlieb > > > > snip > An extremely one-sided view, in my opinion, it makes many false assumptions, like each bidder has zero knowledge of the others bidders tactics and bids. I personally have not bid on products when "certain" people have the current high bid, I know their max bid is probably very high, so I don't bother. (result is a high bidder underpaiding). I wonder if anybody else does this? I would also guess that many cases exist where all bidders bid below the "fair future value". It has to happen, no one knows the future. In fact, all people who bid on the first Altairs auctioned on Ebay all bid below the fair future value(where today is the future). No? Ebay may seem a sellers market to a buyer, but go ask a couple dealers and you will get another story. The fact the auction ends at a specified time without a doubt lowers the final auction price, this does not occur in a live auction, in live auctions bids are taken until all bidders have reach their maximum bid. Collusion is also common on Ebay, and unlike real auctions is not enforced even if discovered. The grass is always greener on the other side .. For an excellent discussion on auctions, live and online, read about auctions from a real dealer http://www.mermac.com/auction.html steve

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

sellers market

by edick＠idcomm.com

Sam - First of all - There's already a trading website for CP/M systems and components, by the way. it's at < http://members.aol.com/randymc482/index.htm > It's new and hasn't much on it, but it's certainly available. I don't think everyone is as "hard-over" on the eBay thing as you are. I agree that many people ask far too much for the items they offer for auction. The eBay people publish a transaction success rate of only 70%. This means that while people are willing to bid unreasonable prices, they aren't willing to pay them. Nevertheless, the eBay folks collect a fee based on the price at which the auction closes. It's not a fee based on whether or not a sale is made, but simply on a price, and a very hypothetical one, based on the 70% success rate. That high failure rate of 30% is apparently a percentage of the completed auctions, not a percentage of those started. If no one would bid on an item, the auction would not be completed. Since it's possible, in fact, common for the seller to set a minimum price, it's sure that a significant part of that 30% failure rate that is a response to the all-too-high minimum set by the seller. That's a penalty for being unreasonable. If you were going to set up a site for hobbyists and collectors, which eBay is not, then you'd have to collect earnest money in the amount of the fee to be paid the auctioneer from each bidder, and return the funds paid by all but the winning bidder to the losers after the auction ends. This would ensure a higher completion rate, but would create a lot of work. If you were to collect from the seller, which is certainly reasonable in light of the fact the seller's the only one sure to have some money at the end of the transaction, you'd still have to ensure that the buyer pays. In return, however, you'd have to ensure that what's paid for is what's received by the buyer. All of this gets complicated. Facilitating barter, like facilitating sales, is difficult. Let me cite my own example. I listed a number of items which I know are of interest at least to the people who asked for them, knowing that I didn't want any more than the value of packaging and shipping, yet only one has actually come across with funds to offset postage for the two boards, etc, he asked me to send. I got lots of "I want all of it" without even a close-to-reasonable suggestion as to how to manage packaging, hauling, and shipping. Having gotten rid of the last of the terminals and printers that are going I have about 5 cubic yards of powered chassis and unpowered cardcages in addition to a bunch of cards which will easily fit into the cardcages if that's how I choose to package them. However, I still have to search through a lot of documentation and literally thousands of diskettes in order to put the media together with the doc. Everyone's happy to receive the stuff once it's found and packaged and shipped, yet although I originally indicated I'd be happy to accept "something I can use" (followed by some examples), and all the examples were VERY widely distributed, probably in considerably greater quantity than S-100 systems ever were, I've gotten no offers of these types of devices at all, even though, in several cases, the things are still available and at lower cost than what people seem willing to pay to buy the items I've offered. Hobbyists, you see, are the guys who want everything, want to pay/trade nothing, and only get rid of an item when it's certain they won't have any further use for it. I was once in that category. I did what I did for the love of it, and made a fair amount of money besides. Now I love it a bit less, and don't want all the paraphernalia taking up space if I can't use it for something serious. Now, multiply that by the number of transactions you anticipate facilitating, and you'll see you're up against an enormous expense just in aspirin, MAALOX, whiskey, and prune juice. That's why eBay operates the way it does, still more or less isolated from the transactions, yet able to bring in lots of dollars because they charge the speculators money regardless of whether they sell their item or not. Does this seem different to you? Dick +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 11:06 AM Subject: Re: sellers market <snip> >>I think this is a VERY, VERY GOOD idea ! > >It is a good idea but let me be the naysayer for a moment. Say someone >does go through the trouble to create such a cool site. A bunch of guys >sick of the ebay atrocity start posting want ads for stuff they want. >And they wait. And wait. And wait. And...nothing ever comes of it. >People who are selling this stuff come to the page, see someone wanting an >Exidy Sorcerer for $15 and go "HAH! I can get 20 times that on ebay!" >Then they go to ebay and get 20 times that. > >Now I would think that many on this list are more interested in trading >computers in a sane manner with other like-minded hobbyists, and on the >strength of that alone will this work. > >Now let's say that a trading board is added, where people can post stuff >they have for sale or trade there. Let's say some really cool things are >offered for sane prices, like S-100 systems and cards, interesting >micro's from the 80s, PDP-8 hardware and software, etc. Good stuff. All >being offered at reasonable prices because its offered by hobbyists >intended for hobbyists. > >Now, along comes some jerk with a lot of money, he starts buying up >everything that gets posted, and then even worse, a couple weeks later >this stuff starts showing up on ebay and getting sold for the same old >ridiculous prices! > >Now, what I'm trying to say is, while this sounds like a very cool idea, >it has the potential to get destroyed by the very thing we're trying to >avoid. A system needs to be designed to insure that there is a level of >integrity maintained, otherwise you just have another ebay, and one ebay >is bad enough. > >I don't have any ideas on this (yet) but I think it should be well thought >out before anyone even bothers to set up the site. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] >

26 years, 11 months

7
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sellers market

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 06:43 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Like I said in a previous message, just >because an idiot wants to pay $3,000 for an Altair, doesn't mean everyone >else should too. Ebay is your boogie-man. You say Ebay's driven up the prices of Altairs, but where's the marketplace that's selling Altairs for $600, like in the good old days? Who's to say that the street price of an Altair isn't $3K or $6K? While we have plenty of aspersions on the character of the "idiots" paying greater-than-hamfest prices, where's the discussion of quality o the merchandise? Isn't it possible that a "cherry" Altair, known working, lovingly cared-for, with historically accurate peripherals, docs and software would be worth more than the $200 hamfest dust-covered Altair case? At 10:01 AM 3/20/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Of course they wish for a ridiculously high price. And my argument, which >you did not address, is that ebay's auction mechanism encourages >such ridiculously high prices. Yes, an auction can generate high prices. From the perspective of the seller, they're getting the best possible price. For the seller, you'd think they'd believe they were getting what they want for the price they're willing to pay. You're right, there are many variations of auction-like sale mechanisms, and there isn't yet a web site for every one. So you're going to pay for your time and bandwidth on www.sellam.com via the sale of banner ads, or what? >Its a free market sure, but the prices that come out of ebay auctions are >by no measure "fair market value". Pish-posh! Price is set between buyer and seller - that's it. Sure, you could write a book and attempt to persuade people that your estimated values were accurate for some place and time, but it doesn't prevent people from selling for less, and it doesn't prevent people paying more. So how do you derive "fair market value" for an Altair in Silicon Valley, versus an Altair I could see and buy here in Wisconsin? Yes, Ebay makes it easy for "lazy" people to buy Altairs. I don't spend many spare hours searching junk shops, but does that make me lazy or undeserving of the opportunity to own one at a price I'm willing to pay? - John

26 years, 11 months

3
2
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"new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I think you'd find some additional interest from others (me at least) for <modern kits or instruction sets like those to put these kinds of things <together. I might be able to follow some instructions. I know that I <couldn't just assemble one like you are now doing... yet. ;) It's something I'm not into. Publishing designs that can't be built unless your lucky to have the parts is not a winner. Trying to design something that most everyone can build is far to time consuming and would represent design compromizes that would be for the sake of buildability rather than some specific perfomance. then there is the issue of support. For example you can't get z280s as production has stopped. Some of the parts I use are based on my really deep junkbox. I do have two scopes, logic analyser logic probes, eprom programmers never mind the other tools like working systems to develop code on. Also something on that scale requires a lot of hardware to troubleshoot as initial bringup can include design errors, wiring errors and even a bad part. That leads me to why the Altair and IMSAI were replaced by AppleII and TRS80 style machines. Why, they were working out of the box and users could start coding ideas. Allison

26 years, 11 months

2
1
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Redundant Technology Initiative

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Here's an interesting site. Not exactly what I'd have in mind for old computers but at least they aren't junking them and it seems pretty cool. http://www.lowtech.org/ Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99]

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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Somewhat OT: GRiDCase 1530?

by arfonrg＠texas.net

Anyone know anything about a GRiDCase 1530? Here's the situation: I have one that needs a new MB which can be had for $79.00. I know it's a i386 with a 100Mb HD (NO FLOPPY) and a B/W LCD display and it used a special version of MSDOS with some GRiD stuff added. 1) Anyone know if I can just add a floppy and a larger HD? 2) Can I load Linux on it? Thanks, Arfon ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

26 years, 11 months

2
1
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BDV11 - which ROMs ?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>This is so much fun, now in this otherwise forgotten pile of stuff I find >a QBus backplane with a single card stuck in it, its an M8012 (aka BDV11) >bootstrap and terminator card. Now the reason I ignored it, and probably >the guy who tossed this backplane ignored it, was because it has a large >number of "missing" chips. Presumably those are for booting various >devices, it makes it look like the board has been stripped. However, >knowing what it is now, I suspect it could come in handy. However, I've >got no docs on it at all (sigh), but I've got The List. :-) In my experience, I've never seen a BDV11 with more than 4 chips in the sockets... You probably have a perfectly good BDV there... >Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either >an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... Good possibility... also, a little trick about booting if all you have is the RX boot... image copy the first block (boot block) of the RL drive to the first block of an RX disk... this way, you could boot the RL by specifying the RX... I've done it numerous times on some of my -11s which didn't have the boot room I needed. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

3
3
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sellers market

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Sam you make our point elegantly, extracting from the text ... ... Remember, there is no danger of the winner's curse if you are sure about the value of an item to YOU. (emphasis mine) You know somethings value, you can bid at that value, if you win then great, if you lose then some sucker over paid for the item, but that isn't your problem is it? --Chuck

26 years, 11 months

2
1
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Got a question....PDP? VAX?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Hi! I've been growing up in the age of "IBM era" of computers. The only non-IBM (compatible) computers that I've worked on was an apple //c and a TRS-80 model III that nearly caught my basement on fire. I'm 16 years old, so I haven't had any experience with any pre 1980's stuff (other than the //c). What I'm wondering, is what exactly is a PDP, or a VAX, or an Altair, or any of the other things that come up frequently on the list. Also - how is one of the computers (such as the Altair) operated, with all the switches and indicators? Is there a keyboard or a monitor with it? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

26 years, 11 months

22
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Seller's market

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 10:58 AM 3/21/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Think of it this way: if a toy stuffed with beans that cost a couple >dollars to manufacture were to be made for sale in a way which makes >people perceive a scarcity, and that toy was then subsequently priced up >to $1000 because of dealers and price speculators feeding on the perceived >scarcity of that toy, is it really worth $1000? Don't answer that yet. >Now fast forward a couple years in time and the market runs its course, >people are fed up with this toy and don't care about it anymore. The fad >is over, the bottom of the market drops out, and the last sorry asshole to >pay $1000 for a toy stuffed with beans is left holding an item worth maybe >$50 to the person who still hasn't caught on that it was all just an >irrational frenzy to begin with. Uh, yeah, I think there's at least two auction sites like that: NYSE and NASDAQ. - John

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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Odd DEC module

by william＠ans.net

This weekend I spent some time at the RCS/RI millspace, and one of the new arrivals is a very odd DEC module. It is called a "Smart Module", dates to 1975 or so, and is a double-high, extra long card. It looks to have an i4004, a bunch of glue, and five sockets for some 24 pin chips (ROMs?). The interesting thing are the handles - they are yellow! It is officially known as a Y187. I have never seen a yellow DEC module, nor have any references to any. The big blue Engineering book does not mention them. Any ideas from the Digits out there? Were these DEC internal? Prototypes? Mistakes? William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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HP external disk drives available

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I have the following extra Hewlett Packard external floppy drives for sale: HP 9121D, 9122D, 9123D, 9122C and one each 9121S and 9122S. The 9121 uses single sided drives, the 9122 and 9123 use double sided drives, the 9122C uses HD double sided drives. The D models all have two drives. The S models have only one drive. The S models are very rare, I've only seen three of them in several years of HP collecting. The 9123 is exactly the same as a 9122 except that it has no built-in AC power supply. It's intended for use with the HP 150 TouchScreen II and gets it's power from it. I also have some external HP hard disk drives available, mostly 9153Cs, 9133Ds, and a few HP 7958s. Most have BASIC or Pascal for the HP 9000 200 or 300 series computers installed on them. All the drives have the standard HP-IB interface. Contact me by private E-mail if you're interested. Joe

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

"new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research)

by dogas＠leading.net

-----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 10:56 PM Subject: Re: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) ><I think you'd find some additional interest from others (me at least) for ><modern kits or instruction sets like those to put these kinds of things ><together. I might be able to follow some instructions. I know that I ><couldn't just assemble one like you are now doing... yet. ;) > >It's something I'm not into. Publishing designs that can't be built unless >your lucky to have the parts is not a winner. Trying to design something >that most everyone can build is far to time consuming and would represent >design compromizes that would be for the sake of buildability rather than >some specific perfomance. then there is the issue of support. >For example you can't get z280s as production has stopped. Some of the >parts I use are based on my really deep junkbox. I do have two scopes, >logic analyser logic probes, eprom programmers never mind the other tools >like working systems to develop code on. > >Also something on that scale requires a lot of hardware to troubleshoot >as initial bringup can include design errors, wiring errors and even a bad >part. That leads me to why the Altair and IMSAI were replaced by AppleII >and TRS80 style machines. Why, they were working out of the box and >users could start coding ideas. ok, I see (all of) your points and unhappily agree. So, what are the goals of your system design? - Mike

26 years, 11 months

2
1
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HP HP-IB tape drives available

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I have some extra HP tape drives if anyone wants one. I have one HP 9145 32 track drive and several HP 9144 16 track drives. All use the HP-IB interface. The use the DC-600 size tape but require that you use HP tapes since that have to be preformatted. I do not have any extra tapes, you'll have to find your own. I have tested the drives and they all work fine. Contact me by private E-mail if interested. Joe

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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SWPT 6800

by dogas＠leading.net

I also have no documenetation on the AC-30. Is this compatible with the MP-C board and does anyone have any paper on it? Thanks again - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Security question (sort of)

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Check out my website: http://members.tripod.com/general_1 -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Security question (sort of) >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: >> My computer was recently hacked into, and a bunch of the software, and some >> of the hardware was messed up (I know who did it - no one on this list - >> someone from my school). > >What kind of damage were they able to perform on hardware? >

26 years, 11 months

6
5
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SWTPC 6800

by dogas＠leading.net

I've been going through the documentation for the swtpc and listed below what I have. I'd be happy to help fill in any docset gaps for anyone with copies and ask also for copies if anyone has anything not in my list. I'm initially looking for any missing Assembly instructions( MP-A2 ) Parts Lists( MP-A2, MP-B ) and System Checkout Instructions( MP-B, MP-C, MP-P ). Thanks - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net SWTPC 6800 Documentation Motorola M6800 Microcomputer System Design Data SWTPC 6800 Computer System Addendum SWTPC System Documentation Notebook Introduction Hardware Introduction MPU 1 - MPU 30 PIA 1 - PIA 14 missing 9,10 ACAI 1 - ACAI 9 Programming Introduction PROG 1 - PROG 29 OS/Software/Appendices Mikbug Operating System Dual Address Memory Test CDAT by John Christensen Engineering Note 100 - MCM6830L7 MIKBUG/MINIBUG ROM ROBIT 1 - ROBIT 4 MEMCON 1 - MEMCON 4 SERINT 1 - SERINT 3 PARINT 1 - PARINT 3 TICTAC 1 - TICTAC 9 Motorola's M6800 User's Group 1 - 3 M6800 USER GROUP LIBRARY SUBMITTAL FORM Language of the M6800 Microprocessor 1 - 16 Motorola Semiconductors - MC14411 System Checkout Instructions 1 - 6 molex zero force sockets ic insertion instructions Connector ReferenceSheet System Checkout Instructions MP-A2 Version 1 - 5 (page 5 partially missing) board layout of MP-A2 Assembly Instructions MP-B Mother Board 1 - 9 schematic Assembly Instructions MP-C Serial, Control Interface 1 - 12 Parts List MP-C Serial Control Interface schematic board layout Assembly Instructions MP-P Power Supply 1 - 6 Parts List MP-P Power Supply schematic board layout MP-P Power Supply Wiring Diagram M-16-A Installation Instructions *EOD*

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

BDV11 - which ROMs ?

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

This is so much fun, now in this otherwise forgotten pile of stuff I find a QBus backplane with a single card stuck in it, its an M8012 (aka BDV11) bootstrap and terminator card. Now the reason I ignored it, and probably the guy who tossed this backplane ignored it, was because it has a large number of "missing" chips. Presumably those are for booting various devices, it makes it look like the board has been stripped. However, knowing what it is now, I suspect it could come in handy. However, I've got no docs on it at all (sigh), but I've got The List. :-) Here are the details: M8012-YA card with two ROMs labelled: 23046E 23045E 2 7907 7907 I'm guessing 7907 is the date code. Then it has two switches on the top (S1, S2) (large paddles), a dip switch that has 8 positions and another dip switch with 5 position. (I'm guessing this is CSR and Vector) Given the other stuff that was tossed out with this card I suspect either an RL01 boot rom or an RX02 boot ROM ... --Chuck

26 years, 11 months

2
1
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11/44 9trk help Update

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Well... never underestimate the efficacy of cursing loudly and throwing random things. I have discovered that the 11/44 te11 does not play well with the Cipher 880, tho I could make it do everything but actually read and write. I have discovered that there is a certain amount of 'connector ambiguity' as per usually with DEC stuff... the proper orientations were of course the last ones I tried, after mis-reading the pin numbers on the Pertec formatter twice. And wahoo! I can PIP files to and fro, and, scenes from my childhood computer dreams... I can watch the reels turning and incrementing. Too much fun! Thanks to all who have responded privately and I'm looking forward to more info here on The List or by e-mail. NOW: I have some DECUS tapes I would like to explore, but they are archived in .DSK format. I can run RT11 from within RSTS okay, but I have no idea how to un-do a .DSK. Any Help from someone here? And what a wonderful roar all this stuff makes... Cheers John

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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Victory! (was: seller's market)

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

I can summarize this whole affair in four statements: 1. Awareness goes up, causing commercialization of an otherwise 'user-friendly' hobby 2. Prices go up, shafting the poor guy who got into this because it was a fun and inexpensive passtime. 3. These guys leave because the hobby is no longer inexpensive. 4. The {vultures|speculators} take over and pick the {carcass|hobby} clean. It may be just 'nature' but it is still an ugly sight, and it pisses me off. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

FREE: Vic-20

by fpp＠concentric.net

Outstanding, the money is on its way in the morning, Thanks again.

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

Rebirth of IMSAI

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Yes, but it's possible to make replacement parts for an auto engine. If <there's simply no more of a certain processor available, what do you do <besides make a replacement out of custom chips? Thats bogus as finding 8080s is not hard and in a pinch a 8085 or z80 (both more common) could be used as it's nearly as old. In practical terms a front pannel machine based on a z80 would prove a useful learning tool and prove to those that think it's cool why they are gone. ;) It doesn't have to be an altair or IMSAI clone. Th real clone question is, does one copy all of the faults and bugs or does one clean it up so that it's reliable in function? Allison

26 years, 11 months

2
1
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Rebirth of IMSAI

by edick＠idcomm.com

What might make sense here is to replace the 8080 + surrounding logic with an FPGA which talks directly (or maybe with buffering) to the S-100 bus. With the right FPGA, you'd need no status latches, no bus buffers, just the FPGA. If you use your imagination, you could even make it download the FPGA >from your PC, which would also serve as the console. That way if you wanted to run it as an 8080 one day and a 6502 the next, that wouldn't be unrealistic. It might even be conceivable to do this with a SCENIX SX in the 52-pin version. You need a few pins for overhead to operate the SX, plus the 40 less the supply connections for the emulated processor. If you write your code so it operates the S-100 directly, you don't have much to worry about. The skew between port updates is negligible next to what the original part had, and you can, of course synchronize the signals by latching them at the bus interface. Now, I don't know whether I would want to do this, but as you can see . . . the possibilities are virtually endless. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 8:12 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI >> >> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >> >it was correct if motor car museums had modern engines in all the >> >exhibits? >> >> Yes, but it's possible to make replacement parts for an auto engine. If >> there's simply no more of a certain processor available, what do you do >> besides make a replacement out of custom chips? > >That's one reason for prefering machines made from simple, standard chips :-) > >But seriously, what you _should_ do is make a replacement. Start from >the data sheet and implement it using (say) an FPGA. Document the fact >that it's in no sense original, of course, and keep the blown chip >(preferably inside the machine). > >Yes, that's a lot of work. > >However, I don't think we're talking about that. On several occasions >recently I've been asked about making a video 'recording' (either on >video tape or, more likely, on a PC) and then playing it back to a modern >monitor hidden inside the case of a classic monitor. This was to go on >show as a museum exhibit in place of having the real machine in operation. > >I was not at all amused. If I (as a small private collector) can keep >these machines running then a museum certainly should. In fact that >should be their primary aim (or possibly to keep the machines in perfect >physical condition, all original parts, but certainly not to display >fakes). If they don't have somebody who can do that, they should employ >somebody... > >It appears that some museums only care about the most trivial level of >appearance of their computers and not one bit about what's inside... > >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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11/44 9trk tape help

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Hello List! I am not having much luck trying to figure out how to use the 9trk tape device on my PDP 11/44 system. The 11/44 has a big Fuji SMD as DB0:, a TU58 I have no tape for, and either a Cipher 880 or a Kennedy 9100. The controller is a TE11 and the unit is MA0:. For purposes of this question I have hooked up the Kennedy... mainly so I can *watch* it run. ;} The OS is RSTS/E V9.7. I have no RSTS docs at all... a year ago I gave them to the guy I got this system from. :< (Hi Bruce!) I have spent some hours going over the 'help' docs, but I have no experience with 1/2" tape other than the other Cipher on my uVax II under VMS, which, notwithstanding having some doc and a lot of patient help from a number of folk, I couldn't get to copy foreign files (RT11 <-> VMS). I would just like to be able to copy files to and from the disk, and to load files from the other tapes. I have played with Initializing, Allocating, and Mounting... but I'm missing something. I have been trying to use PIP to move files, but it's been suggested that PIP don't speak Tape... I dunno. Can someone who has done this just give me the outline of how to use the 9trk? I have been reluctant so far to use the BACKUP and RESTORE facilities because I don't know any possible gotchas involved. Maybe if I can get this HD backed up to tape then I'll feel safer mucking about. Thanks in advance!! Cheers John

26 years, 11 months

1
0
0 0

S-100 prototyping boards

by edick＠idcomm.com

Actually, I used to sell an original wirewrap board which has a colander ground and power plane and a 0.100" matrix of plated through holes. That was how all my wirewrap boards were configured, so I could use whatever dip, pin-grid array, or idc connector I wanted without concerning myself with whether it would fit. Of course, back in the S-100 days one didn't have to worry about the off-grid connectors like the DA-15 or the DB25. These boards had dry-film solder mask so you could use bare-wire point-to-point wiring for layout sensitive analog circuitry, keeping it close to the low-impedance ground or Vcc plane without fear of soldering to that plane. I'll have to see if I can still find those old films. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sergey Svishchev <svs(a)ropnet.ru> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 7:34 PM Subject: S-100 prototyping boards >On Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 12:34:22PM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> From what I've observed the 100-pin >> card-edge connectors are pretty common. I really don't know why, but they >> are. Every time I look at the local surplus parts house, I see those old >> connectors, in the same box they were in 20 years ago, even though the store >> has moved 3 times, with the label "S-100 Connectors, $3.95." > >And Douglas Electronics still sells S-100 prototyping boards: > ><URL:http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/s-100.html> > >-- >Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru

26 years, 11 months

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Database of old computers?

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

I just purchased a Poqet PC and am working on cataloging all my computers on it so I'll have a list on hand when I go to the hamfests. Of course, I have a pretty good idea what computers are in my collection. What I really need is a database of the machines that _aren't_. Thomas Haddock's "A Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators" is an excellent reference. It gives the computers specifications, date of introduction, and a brief description of the unit. ? Usually enough information to determine if the computer is worth the purchase. Are there any references similiar to Haddock's available electronically? I'd really hate to have to retype Haddock's entire book just so I can carry it around with me... Tom Owad

26 years, 11 months

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"new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research)

by dogas＠leading.net

-----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 9:47 PM Subject: Re: "new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research) ><>Simm sockets, PLCC and other chip sockets and the z280s were socketed to ><>start with. >< ><Cool... Can I have a copy of your assembly documentation? > >Why, It's going to be a single copy wirewrap. The bulk of the docs will be >a print set to work from, maybe a wire list and software. I think you'd find some additional interest from others (me at least) for modern kits or instruction sets like those to put these kinds of things together. I might be able to follow some instructions. I know that I couldn't just assemble one like you are now doing... yet. ;) - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

26 years, 11 months

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H11 vs H11A ?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What does the "LTC" switch do on an H11A ? It kills the LTC interrupt (BEVENT-L). Which is more common? (H11 or H11A) Can an H11 be "upgraded" to an H11A? The upgrade is possible and trivial. the cpu board, backplane and all are unaffected. The common failing on H11s is the power supply was not all that reliable. I'd try to find a H780 and shoehorn it in. I still use a serial card from one as a serial replacement for the parallel LAV11. fair design, second rate board compared to DEC version. Allison

26 years, 11 months

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"new" classics (was Re: Pre-history of Digital Research)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>Simm sockets, PLCC and other chip sockets and the z280s were socketed to <>start with. < <Cool... Can I have a copy of your assembly documentation? Why, It's going to be a single copy wirewrap. The bulk of the docs will be a print set to work from, maybe a wire list and software. Allison

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by dogas＠leading.net

Why not create a current design for a modern front panel system? ok, retro styling because I like the silk screening of the 8800b and the 8080 but with *some* modern accoutrements while still providing that front panel experience. - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

26 years, 11 months

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Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research

by edick＠idcomm.com

I've got to disagree on this one. From what I've observed the 100-pin card-edge connectors are pretty common. I really don't know why, but they are. Every time I look at the local surplus parts house, I see those old connectors, in the same box they were in 20 years ago, even though the store has moved 3 times, with the label "S-100 Connectors, $3.95." They sit right next to a box of connectors nearly the same size, which says on it, "Multibus Connectors, $4.95." They seldom have the 30-pair connectors used on the secondary connector for Multibus-I, nor do they often have the 31-pair or 18-pair connectors used on a PC backplane. Now, I didn't say I like the price, but there they are. I don't know of many parts which were used in these old products, with the notable exception of the UART (TMS 6011, AY5-1013, etc) which were popular back in the mid-1970's. They were mostly standard TTL, though, which, if replaced with the currently popular CMOS equivalent may suffer from the poor designs of yesteryear. Back then we were still learning about race conditions and setup and hold time violations, and the like. Back then, a circuit designed to operate from a 25 MHz clock was taxing the limits of the technology, while today, people don't even blink when the clocks are over 10 times that fast. Replacing the old "standard" TTL with the still-available LSTTL may prove hazardous because of timing changes as well, and some of the old tricks with capacitors as delay elements may not work properly either. There are plenty of problems. Getting the common TTL of that era won't be as easy as it was then, but it won't be a lot more difficult. Now that I know this rebirth is a possibility, I won't throw away any more of the old standard TTL or small memories, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Pre-history of Digital Research ><An important thing to remember is that the Original IMSAI sold for almost ><$1000. So even though a new Pentium II 400 is only $1000 with all the bell ><and whistles there is a cost savings due to selling hundres of thousands o ><the thing. An IMSAI kit maybe a few hundred or so.< > >Doing an Imsai would be expsnsive as finding the parts would be costly. >Many arent made or are such low volume (100pin connector for sure) that >it isn't going to be cheap. > >For example the backplane 18 slots (or was it 22) roughly 13"x18" two sided >in quantities of 100, I'd bet that would be a $100 right there. Even in the >S100 heyday $49 was cheap (no connectors or anything else). > >Allison >

26 years, 11 months

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H11 vs H11A ?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>What does the "LTC" switch do on an H11A ? Which is more common? (H11 or >H11A) Can an H11 be "upgraded" to an H11A? If it is anything like the LTC switch on a BA11-M or BA11-N, it enables or disables the Line Time Clock... I can't answer about H11 v. H11A Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Seller's market

by Watzman＠ibm.net

The messages by some of the participants shows that they really do not understand [or perhaps do not want] the concept of a free market. What they really want is a highly imperfect market so that they can buy things at low prices even though there are people around who are willing to pay more [given the presumption that all sellers will sell to the highest bidder ..... and I use the term bidder loosely, not necessarily to imply an auction type format]. The internet is having a huge impact on buying and selling because it is creating the most free and perfect market that ever existed. The definition of such a market is that every buyer knows of every seller, and vice versa; the sellers are able to find the buyer willing to pay the highest price, AND the buyers are able to find the sellers willing to sell for the lowest price. GROW UP ! You have no right to complain because someone else is willing to pay more than either you are willing to pay or than you think that the item is worth. In the latter case, someone else obviously disagrees with you, and IS willing to put their money where their mouth is. That said, I do feel that steps should be taken to INSURE that bidders complete their deals. If I were a seller, and someone bid $5,000 and then backed out, I'd seriously consider legal action to enforce specific performance. I believe that bids on E-Bay are legally enforceable, but in 90% of the cases, because of both the amount and the fact that the buyer and seller are probably in different states, it is just not practical to try and enforce it. However when the bids get into the thousands of dollars, the situation changes and it may become practical to seek a court order of specific performance. But, perhaps a better way would be for E-Bay to create a new class of "Bonded Buyers and Sellers", in which E-Bay has credit card numbers from both buyer and seller, and both buyer and seller have agreed to binding arbritration by a 3rd party [E-Bay]. A bonded seller could designate an auction as open only to bonded bidders, with the assurance on both sides that the transaction WOULD be completed and that items offered would be as described.

26 years, 11 months

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