- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Z-80, which was enjoying almost universal acceptance as the most widely <applicable and easiest-to-use microprocessor available. Most of the popula I could argue it was or it wasnt. ;) Keep in mind at that time I was doing 8048, 8085, z80, 1802, 6100, sc/mp, TI9900, LSI-11, some 6502 and 6800. That does not include the uCOM4 (NEC 4bit) and uCOM75 (cmos high end 4bit) parts. <statements about it were pretty much on the money. Of course, the evolutio <of the 64K DRAM made its refresh counter more or less useless, but the Only some as a goodly portion still had 128 address row refresh (NEC4164 and About four others). But 64kDrams were really a year out due to price in late 79 being rather high. (then design cycles for new products wer 9-18 months too). <the Apple to accomplish the same thing. Meanwhile, Motorola was making a <BIG mistake, abandoning the amateur and "small" users. Yes! The 6800 if you had the 25$ big book you were an expert if you could read. Later parts did come so cheaply supported. <Since the evolution of the now-popular 'C' and PASCAL compilers for the <8051-core micro's, I believe the popularity of this 25-year-old model has <actually increased. The HLL's and the development of high-speed versions o Yes it has but the code it not as dense as hand written. Then again with the availability of LARGE ROMs/EPROM/EEPROM it may be development timeover code density. <'51-core user. I believe that it's as a consequence of that, that there ar <now compilers for several truly "ugly" architectures, e.g. the PIC/SCENIX Yes they were never a favorite for me but then again I could program them as they looked like the 4bitters I used to work with. <class of processors. There are also VHDL and VERILOG cores for several of <the older architectures, e.g. 650x, available for those who prefer to <"roll-their-own" which are also, though less well, supported with compiler <and other tools. If your need embedded 8051, 6502 and z80 are good choices. <Again, Motorola seems to have been left behind at least with their smaller <MCU's. I guess that's because of their reputation for spurning application <which consume fewer than 100K parts per week. Yep, seen that before. Now the worst thing I've seen was the 8086/8 and its heirs. I really hated writing code for it. The segmentation scheme was one horrid hack. Allison

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> The point was apparently missed. Of course I can take a cmos z80 and <blow <> that out of the water using a 6 or 8 mhz clock. < <But because of the way the phases are used, a 2MHz 6502/65C02 is running a <roughly the same rate (for comparable operations) as a 4MHz Z80. Yes, the 6502 overlaps the instuction fetch and execute (mini pipeline). The z80 is more classic multi-state machine. In the end the two parts are roughly the same speed for their generation. IE: a 4mhz z80 does basic operations in 1uS and 6502 at 2mhz is about the same. the difference is any is when complex indexing or other tassks are discussed where the z80 has a better instuction set (though slower...more states) the 6502 uses more small instructions(fast but many). In the end they do the same task just different. That supports the only logical conclusion... clock speeds dont count. The full measure is instruction execution time. Which is why I used the PDP-8 example as that machine used 1.4uS core yet it had a fairly high effective speed. Now to extend this to other older cpus there are some out there that were just plain slow or due to their instruction set so awkward as to end up being slow. Allison

27 years

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Parting out PDP-8a

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I would also like to lay my hands on a programmer's console. It's one of >the only things (besides hex-high core) that I'm missing. Same here... the 8/A I recently got seems pretty fully loaded (I haven't yet itemized what's in it), but the one thing it doesn't have, and that I really really want is a programmer's console for it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

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Parting out PDP-8a

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com wrote: > Guys: > > I have discovered a PDP-8a in a scrapyard near my workplace. > It has been outside for awhile; but if there are any salvable > parts there, would anyone be interested? But of course. > BTW-- How do I get the front panel off without breaking > anything? Depending on the front panel style, if you see two 1/4" holes, one on either edge, it may take an allen wrench. If the panel has no apparent tool access, it's probably held in place by a pair of ball and socket joints on each side which can get extremely tight if pressed on too hard and left to sit. There are times when I think I'm about to bust the balls right off the backplace, and sometimes I'm right. :-( What's inside? What are you offering? At this point, I could even use a new chassis as I have a full set of a mix of verified working and untested boards (128kW MOS, RL8A, etc). I'm sure that the memory and disk I/O work; I am not certain that my spare DKC8AA is any good. ISTR that about 10 years ago I pulled it and set it aside for acting up. I would also like to lay my hands on a programmer's console. It's one of the only things (besides hex-high core) that I'm missing. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>> There should be >>>some plastic catches (or more likely the remains of same) on the PSU. > >>I've found that most half-inch tape seals have latches which are >>quite amenable to being used as replacements for the original plastic >>catches :-). >Tim, >I think I'm going to have to plead ignorant here. What are "half-inch tape >seals"? You know those 2400-foot, 600-foot, and other lengths of half-inch tape that are used in 7-track and 9-track drives? The reels are commonly enclosed in plastic straps with latches; the strap with the latch is the "tape seal". I think "Tape Seal" may actually be a trademark of Wright Line. The latch part usually has a plastic hook extending >from it that you can hang the tape up by on a Wright Line tape stand or cabinet. There are non-Wright-Line tape seals with very different plastic designs that serve the same general purpose, but are specifically designed for auto-loading tape drives. These seem to be more common in IBM shops. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by edick＠idcomm.com

You've got two tracks mixed up, I think. True, the Apple II was quite plentiful in 80, but not in businesses the way it was in 82-83. I even had several of them with people to man them as well. I hated the Apple but loved the 6502. In the meantime, I noted that the RS Model 1 was a piece of junk, and, in fact, so much of one that I never bought one, even for experimentation, and I had nearly every other sort of box around the shop. The Model 3 design my employer had contracted to him was paid for in late '81. I saw several of them in friends' houses, none of whom had bought them new, by the way, so they'd been on the market for a time in '82-83. We had a really terrible blizzard on Christmas of '82 here, and I saw one in a neighbor's house then. It was an early version but it was a model 3. I'm aware there were plenty of Apples around since the one which was wheeled in to the weekly 6502 Users' Group meeting by the chief guru was not even attracting a second glance. A lot happened in the early part of '81, i.e. Apple prices dropped for the first time, in an effort to retain market share >from the now increasingly available though not yet particularly attractive, either as a computer or as a budget item. There's some more imbedded commentary below, if you're interested. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 5:59 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism ><The IBM entry into the PC market was in mid-1981, I think, and the Model-3 ><was rushed to get out ahead of it. The Apple-II exlposion wasn't quite ><underway yet, but the handwriting was on the wall. > >No. By then the apple and trs80 were common as house flies. In fact in >1980 we used Apples and TRS80s running a similar program for forcasting >as they were in wide use around the shop. They were both in the market >in terms of volumes nearing a 500k system each if not more by 1980. The model 1 was quite common, but the model 1 was in too many pieces to be of much interest to most folks. What's more, it was pretty weak-kneed. The model 3 held out hope, though that was later dashed when the model 3 turned out to be not much better. >the PC wasn't an impact until 82 maybe 83. Memories and events seem to >get compressed or expanded. I's even say the PC was not a serious >contender till mid 83. The initial impact of the PC was to get people to stop buying non-PC's for their businesses. They were extremely costly at first, and didn't have a few serious problems worked out. People had to mortgage their houses to buy one (a basic PC on the gray-market cost nearly $2k). >Allison >

27 years

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OT: copying OS/2 Warp

by max82＠surfree.com

Hi, I managed to borrow a hard drive with OS/2 warp on it from someone. I want to copy it onto my own drive. How do I do this? I know that in DOS, I would do a sys command to make the drive bootable. There is no sys command here. What should I do? --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 11, 10:20, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51 > I have to disagree with your comparison of the 2 MHz 6502 with a 4 MHz > Z-80A. My thought here is that the 4MHz Z-80 used in the conventional way, > had a memory cycle of 750 nanoseconds (3 clock ticks), while the 6502, at > whatever rate, again, used in the conventional way, had a memory cycle of > one clock tick. Now, some instructions involve several memory cycles, but > that was true of both processor families. What I often cursed, was that the > textbook application of the 650x core left memory available (idle) half the > time. That was a blessing up to a point (2.5 MHz to be exact) because it > allowed for DRAM "RAS-precharge." The Apple and others like it proved that > at around 1 MHz, the 6502's memory could be used for an entirely separate > purpose, e.g. video refresh. I wasn't talking about precisely 2MHz vs 4MHz, just a ballpark figure (as opposed to "about the same" or "about ten times" clock speeds). So, given the rest of your message, I think we're in broad agreement. BTW, BBC Micros have a 2MHz clock on the 6502, and interleaved video and processor access quite happily in 1980. The video took care of the refresh requirement. > I believe there are entirely too many subjective, architecture-related, > factors to allow an absolute comparison/contrast of the two processors. Agreed :-) That's why lies, damned lies, and benchmarks are so much fun :-) > In my "gut" I still believe the 4 MHz Z-80 is about > comparable to a 1.5 MHz 6502. Well, that's not very far from what I wrote, is it? I was just pointing out that although Allison seemed to imply that a 6 or 8MHz Z80 was much faster than a 4MHz(? I haven't got the original message any more) 6502, I believe that to be far from the case. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years

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PICK OS

by max82＠surfree.com

I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see that it refers to directories as dictionaries. It seems to take a novel approach, but I know nothing about it. Haven't even heard of it. Does anyone here know more? Does anyone here have the PC version (mentioned in the book)? --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have to disagree with your comparison of the 2 MHz 6502 with a 4 MHz Z-80A. My thought here is that the 4MHz Z-80 used in the conventional way, had a memory cycle of 750 nanoseconds (3 clock ticks), while the 6502, at whatever rate, again, used in the conventional way, had a memory cycle of one clock tick. Now, some instructions involve several memory cycles, but that was true of both processor families. What I often cursed, was that the textbook application of the 650x core left memory available (idle) half the time. That was a blessing up to a point (2.5 MHz to be exact) because it allowed for DRAM "RAS-precharge." The Apple and others like it proved that at around 1 MHz, the 6502's memory could be used for an entirely separate purpose, e.g. video refresh. At one point in time, I went to some lengths to demonstrate the relative performance capability, based on common applications, when the processors were placed in an environment in which the primary constraint on the processor's performance, hardware-wise, was the memory bandwidth. It turned out to be a rather difficult comparison, because of the lengths to which one had to go in order to utilize the memory bandwidth most effectively. The Z-80's most difficult aspect was that its memory cycles were of different lengths. The 6502 could be interfaced quite easily by using an asymmetrical clock, with a short Phase-1 (the period during which addresses and control signals change) and a relatively long Phase-2, which is the cycle when I/O to off-chip system-resources take place. This was straightforward until the system design was adjusted for DRAMs, which were the most common problem of that time. Both processors had problems with DRAM usage. The 6502, when its clock was tweaked to make DRAM access most time-efficient required, absolutely, that a cycle-stealing arrangement was used in order to support refresh. This meant extra hardware. However, the otherwise minimalist Z-80, which once was touted as supporting DRAMs by generating a refresh cycle from time to time, required extra hardware to modify its clock as well in order to allow for a long enough M1 cycle, and to allow enough time for the refresh to occur during its allocated window. This meant even more hardware. It turned out that all the things which the processors' designers had done in order to make the two chips "efficient" became a problem when I tried to implement each one in a way which was tailored to attain the most effective utilization from what was then the most costly system resource, the main memory. In any case, what I determined was that the Z-80, in spite of its complicated hardware requirement, was potentially the faster processor. This was based on a comparison of the two in what I then considered an application tailored to the most effective use of memory bandwidth. I also quickly concluded that the 6502 would outperform it in an application where memory demand was small enough to allow the use of SRAMS, because if the fastest Z-80 available at the time (1981) was handed memories fast enough to operate it at full speed with no wait-states, i.e. minimal hardware, the M1 cycle was still so short as to use the normal Phase-1 time of a 4 MHz 6502, the memory cycle of which was a single clock tick as opposed to the Z-80's three. I believe there are entirely too many subjective, architecture-related, factors to allow an absolute comparison/contrast of the two processors. Being mostly a hardware-oriented type, I find the analysis adequate to warrant the second conclusion above, though I've never been entirely satisfied with the comparison I made based on their relative speed in the execution of a BASIC program. The BASIC interpreters were different, and the programs had to be "fiddled-with" in order to make them both run. The difference was not overwhelming, so I've never been entirely comfortable with the concusion. In my "gut" I still believe the 4 MHz Z-80 is about comparable to a 1.5 MHz 6502. Back in 1980, the Z-80 was definitely the wisest choice if you had to settle on a single processor for carrying out useful business tasks, because the Z-80 could run CP/M which had LOTS of such "useful" programs, thoroughly debugged, most of which were entirely suitable for commercial use, and there were significantly fewer useful-work programs for the 6502, which was more popular in graphics-oriented systems because it could share its memory and because its instruction set was apparently better suited for moving icons around in a display memory as most game programs required. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 8:35 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >On Apr 11, 9:16, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> The point was apparently missed. Of course I can take a cmos z80 and >blow >> that out of the water using a 6 or 8 mhz clock. > >But because of the way the phases are used, a 2MHz 6502/65C02 is running at >roughly the same rate (for comparable operations) as a 4MHz Z80. > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York

27 years

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PR1ME 2550 Up and Running

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

---------- > From: John Lawson <jpl15(a)netcom.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: PR1ME 2550 Up and Running > Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 10:11 > > > > Well... it didn't hurt as much as I thought it was going to.. > > I have just run "SHUTDN ALL" after two hours of playing with PRIMOS > (on a DEC LA120 running at 300 baud... s-l-o-w...). My first encounter with VMS was on a Vax 6310 using a Decwriter II at 300 baud. :^) > I rescued this system about two months ago, and finally got tired > of it taking up space. Nice work, a Pr1me is on my want list too. Can you post a pic on web site somewhere? > And, apropos of the Pick discussions, this machine has INFORMATION > loaded and running... haven't messed with it yet, tho..

27 years

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Chicago trs-80s

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

On Tuesday, April 06, 1999 4:24 PM, Mike [SMTP:dogas@leading.net] wrote: > My vacation/computer-rescue-mission has come to a close and there is now a > big honkin pile of trs-80 6000 and 16b toys on my living room floor. :) > Several of them have broken this or thatsz but the first one I pulled, a > 6000hd 15mhd, booted into Xenix 3.0.1 I think (Microsoft '84). the 68k in > it crashed after about 20min of xenix frolicking. She's resting now. I'd > like cc and tcp for this if anyone can help me out? I 'm sure some parts > will be available as soon as I figure out what I have. Software, give me > software or give me death. > > ;) > - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net > Mike, Nice haul... A couple of weeks ago, I got a Model 2 and a Model 16 sans keyboards. Both machines had been in storage for a long time and were absolutely filthy. After careful disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly, the Model 2 returned to life. Another list member has located a keyboard for me (thanks) so, that one is complete. I haven't found a boot disk for it yet but, I'm sure it'll work just fine. Last weekend I opened up the Model 16 to see if it could be resurrected. The hard drive had been previously removed but it looks like everything else is there. After the ritual cleaning, I applied power to the computer and promptly smoked the floppy drive. One of the traces on the PCB lit up like a freakin Christmas tree. DAMN! I'm surprised it didn't blow a fuse or something. I haven't looked at the drive too closely so, I'm not really sure what happened there. If it is a power supply problem, the whole machine could be history. I'm hoping it was a problem with the floppy and didn't kill anything else. I have not been able to get a trace on the CRT and really don't have the enough tools to properly diagnose the problem. I did however notice the filament on the CRT was glowing and the cooling fans were running. I believe the fans get power from the 110AC primary and the filament could be >from an unregulated source. So, this doesn't totally eliminate a Power Supply problem. Can anyone tell me what voltages should appear on the PS connectors? Is there an easy way to determine if the processor is alive? Unfortunately, I don't have a scope or logic probe :-( If anyone can suggest a good source for a Logic Probe, I'll consider buying one? If I'm unable to get this thing working, I'll make the parts available. The case and CRT are in really good condition so, don't trash any of the Model 16 parts yet. Between us, we should be able to put another one together. Good Luck, Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 11, 9:16, Allison J Parent wrote: > The point was apparently missed. Of course I can take a cmos z80 and blow > that out of the water using a 6 or 8 mhz clock. But because of the way the phases are used, a 2MHz 6502/65C02 is running at roughly the same rate (for comparable operations) as a 4MHz Z80. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years

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Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs

by edick＠idcomm.com

There was another one I haven't seen in a couple of decades, called Allied. I once worked for a subsidiary of another Allied Electronics, so they must have been gone by then. Laffayette was a place where I bought audio components, e.g. speakers, crossover networks, passive radiators, grille-cloth, etc. Of course that was in the '60's . . . When the periodic table was easy to memorize, . . . let's see, there was air, earth . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 9:01 AM Subject: RE: Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs >On Saturday, April 10, 1999 10:16 AM, Charles P. Hobbs >[SMTP:transit@primenet.com] wrote: >> >> >> Does anyone remember a similar electronics store called "Lafayette"? They >> were a big chain, probably not nearly as big as Tandy Radio Shack though; >> I think they went under in 1980 or 1981 > > >I used to visit the Lafayette store in Ft. Lauderdale on a regular basis. >IIRC this was in the Early 70's. The store primarily had audio gear, HAM >equipment, and electronics components. Similar to the Radio Shacks of that >time. > >As a matter of fact, I still have a Lafayette Stereo Amplifier at home. I >used it for about 10 years then it quit working on one channel. Probably a >bad output transister. I just never got around to fixing it... > >I don't recall ever seeing any digital stuff in the stores. Of course this >was VERY early in the micro-processor development stage. > >Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com> >

27 years

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Parting out PDP-8a

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Guys: I have discovered a PDP-8a in a scrapyard near my workplace. It has been outside for awhile; but if there are any salvable parts there, would anyone be interested? BTW-- How do I get the front panel off without breaking anything? Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years

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2
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TI99: Re: DAEMON mail

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I think that what occurred was that a group of list server messages were at Try line breaks...PLEASE! the reso ot that line scrolls around the side of the tube and under the desk. ;) Allison

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I've got issue 2, Vol 1 of PC World dated Mar 83 .Compaqs Portable Comput <was reviewed in this issue, and the reviewer mentions that IBM had introduc <the PC 1 1/2 years earlier. Thanks for the validation. At 46 Iwas there and am still young enough to not be siffering from alzhimers. That and I have the same mags and adds. ;) Allison

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I believe (guessing because I've learned memory doesn't serve as it once <did) The load is two clock ticks and the indirect, indexed jump is five, s <that's 3.5 microseconds, give or take a tick. it's less at 4 MHz, which i <what the 65C02C is rated, though it readily will run at 4.9152 (24.576 <MHz/5) over a wide temperature and voltage range provided the clock is <phased correctly. the divice-by five yields a 40/60 h/l which must be <inverted to give a little longer phase-2 than phase-1. The point was apparently missed. Of course I can take a cmos z80 and blow that out of the water using a 6 or 8 mhz clock. Heck using a 1989 version of the z80, the Z280 at 12.5mhz I can get the execution time way down. In the time frame before 1982 (as a marker) there werent any 4mhz 650c02s and there were 4mhz z80s and pdp-8s were still produced. In that context the the example represent programming style rather that absolute speed as they didn't vary that much over all to represent a great diffferece unless you needed a characteristic that was specific to a given CPU. I'm not slamming the 6502 or it heirs as it's also a very popular embedded CPU still. For that fact so are the Z8 and Z80 heirs. Just from that it's possible to conclude they all had desirable enough characteristics to keep them in the running. As a CPU the 8051 is ok, I use it. As a controller it's without question a popular part still. But as a general purpose cpu, it's a really bad C or Pascal compiler host/target. Allison

27 years

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PICK OS

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

Max Eskin wrote: >I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK >OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see >that it refers to directories as dictionaries. It seems to take a novel >approach, but I know nothing about it. Haven't even heard of it. Does >anyone here know more? Does anyone here have the PC version (mentioned in >the book)? > >--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) > I have never played with PICK, but I have played with Prime "Information" which is sometimes described as a PICK like operating system. I have a PC version somewhere but in that form it is not a true OS. It is started as a DOS application. As someone else has said, not much use except for multi-user database applications. The PC version is only a toy.

27 years

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Heathkit H-8 again

by bluoval＠mindspring.com

It was a 16 button keypad, with numbers 1-9, decimal point, and math operators and two others I couldn't make out. Could someone tell me what these keys were?

27 years

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Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings

by edick＠idcomm.com

There's a pretty slick controller for ISA by Lark Associates which is capable of lying to the PC in a way which actually convinces it you have two physical drives. This makes using such large beasts much easier. I've not been able to get good mileage out of my Miniscribe 9760 or my Maxtor 8760 since it ( the controller ) gave up the ghost. My WD controllers won't help with making it old-bios-compatible. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero(a)cgocable.net <jpero(a)cgocable.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings >Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:46:00 -0500 >To: jpero(a)cgocable.net >From: Jeff Kaneko <jeff.pat(a)mindspring.com> >Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings > >Hi Jeff and to cc follows: > >> >> Attached is all of the information that I have; I haven't been able to try >> this because I'm stuck without a capable ESDI controller. > >Thanks! But same old hat again, it's same thing you see on the >blue planet's website. > >There are few ESDI controllers that can do 24MHZ and *MUST* >able to do up to 4096 cylinders. Nice thing about all ESDI >controllers for Peecees, LBA built right in for greater than 528MB! > >> Looks like you should set for 512 bytes/sector, 83 spt, *hard* sectored. I >> wish I knew that Ultra 12f-24's were so damned rare . . . > >Really? What about it and why it's bit rare? > >And I really beg to anyone on this list to pool their experiences to >"pull" up the ESDI performance because I'm getting subpar >performance for a "high" end hd like 1538 with 71 sectors (1518 is >83 sectors) both hds should have screamed instead of plodded >along. About 600KPS out of that 1538, yuk. I got over 800kps on >that same controller with a Miniscribe 3180E on that paltry 36 >sectors. > >Is there's a controller card that does much better than this Ultrastor >12F24?! Oh, I've one computer based on EISA. > >Oh, anyone knows of same HDAs that uses SCSI interface board >in place of ESDI, I want to know what model it shares same HDA >for each? 1518 and 1538. > >> >> >> Jeff > >Wizard

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by edick＠idcomm.com

referring to your questions regarding the execution time > >Execution time for an 8E (1973) would have been under 8uS if both instuction >used indirect addressing. As written it would be 7.6uS. Now the 6502 at >2mhz would have done it in what? > I believe (guessing because I've learned memory doesn't serve as it once did) The load is two clock ticks and the indirect, indexed jump is five, so that's 3.5 microseconds, give or take a tick. it's less at 4 MHz, which is what the 65C02C is rated, though it readily will run at 4.9152 (24.576 MHz/5) over a wide temperature and voltage range provided the clock is phased correctly. the divice-by five yields a 40/60 h/l which must be inverted to give a little longer phase-2 than phase-1. I've imbedded a few comments in the text below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 5:58 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) ><I knew somebody woudl come up with a good example. That 6809 code is ><probably the closest thing I've seen in a micro. The 8051 uses a similar ><approach, pointing to the table with the datapointer and uses the > >The 8051 is very ugly in other places. It has a sufficiently varied instruction set that you don't really have to use what you don't like. Perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that it's been around since the early '80's and is still the most popular architecture out there. What's more, it's not nearly as ugly as the PIC architecture. >Then there are the NEC uPD 78xx series that are similar in register layout >to z80 but code wise, not close. They have a table lookup instructions for >that exact task. They are targetted as rom based controllers and code >efficientcy is a requirement but often controller don't need to preocess >the kinds of things a PC (or other general purpose computer) would. > >The z280 has a load address inscrtuction that makes the setup for an indexed >jump easier. > >The PDP-11 did it on one instuction but it has some very powerful addressing >modes. Indirection and indexing are natural to that part. > >However in CPUs righer in register than the 6502, the task would be done >far differently. It's a different programming style and it does impact >code structure. For example a set of operations that can be done requiring >multiple (say a dozen) 16bit parameters to be passed are easily done on >even 8080 but the 6502 has to do that as indexed list in ram and pass >the pointer to the list if you want to be efficient. It's possible to >structure a problem such that any cpu looks good or bad. Generally an >application is far more than a trivial few instructions. > >Look at the PDP-8 which is both register poor and has an instruction set >that small is far from adaquate to describe. Yet it performs tasks >efficiently in small amounts of core that some cpus can't. > >The 6809 example would be in PDP-8... > > / enter here with uart data > DCA pindex / store index value at pindex > JMP I,INDEX / indirect jump via index (could have been a JMS, jump > / subroutine!) > >Execution time for an 8E (1973) would have been under 8uS if both instuction >used indirect addressing. As written it would be 7.6uS. Now the 6502 at >2mhz would have done it in what? > >< They (DEC) did make the uVax-II as a chipset for interfacing to their ><BI-bus, I believe, so that might qualify as well. The DEC chipset probabl ><didn't sell for what a 6809 costs, even the faster part, and certainly not ><the $0.86 I last saw on the 4MHz Rockwell 65C02. > >?????? UvaxII was not for interfacing the BI, that was a dedicated chipset. >The uVAXII was a single chip (extended FPU and DMA were companions). UvaxII >was only remotely related to BI bus. The statment doesn't parse. > ><I'm not surprised that it was in the 6809 that this instruction came up. ><The 6809 showed lots of promise at first, but once it was in hand, one ><clearly could see that it would be MUCH easier going with the MC68008 if on ><had to use an 8-bit bus. I never had the opportunity to write in a > >the 6809 was a bridge part while waiting for the 68K. Still it was a good >part. I found them both (6809 and 68K) to be a disappointment. I guess there was too much wait, and it wouldn't have mattered what they put out. ><high-level language for the 6809, but I was told it should have been quite ><easy to write a high-quality efficient compiler for it because of its ><repertioire of instructions and addressing modes. I turned out literally > >Nearly as good as the PDP-11. FYI both the 6809 and the 68k had heavy >PDP-11 and vax influences. > > >Allison >

27 years

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Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings

by jpero＠cgocable.net

Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:46:00 -0500 To: jpero(a)cgocable.net From: Jeff Kaneko <jeff.pat(a)mindspring.com> Subject: Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings Hi Jeff and to cc follows: > > Attached is all of the information that I have; I haven't been able to try > this because I'm stuck without a capable ESDI controller. Thanks! But same old hat again, it's same thing you see on the blue planet's website. There are few ESDI controllers that can do 24MHZ and *MUST* able to do up to 4096 cylinders. Nice thing about all ESDI controllers for Peecees, LBA built right in for greater than 528MB! > Looks like you should set for 512 bytes/sector, 83 spt, *hard* sectored. I > wish I knew that Ultra 12f-24's were so damned rare . . . Really? What about it and why it's bit rare? And I really beg to anyone on this list to pool their experiences to "pull" up the ESDI performance because I'm getting subpar performance for a "high" end hd like 1538 with 71 sectors (1518 is 83 sectors) both hds should have screamed instead of plodded along. About 600KPS out of that 1538, yuk. I got over 800kps on that same controller with a Miniscribe 3180E on that paltry 36 sectors. Is there's a controller card that does much better than this Ultrastor 12F24?! Oh, I've one computer based on EISA. Oh, anyone knows of same HDAs that uses SCSI interface board in place of ESDI, I want to know what model it shares same HDA for each? 1518 and 1538. > > > Jeff Wizard

27 years

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Tutti 0.2a Tomy Tutor emulator relased

by ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 755 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990410/82c36d8e/at…

27 years

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PICK OS

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

---------- > From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: PICK OS > Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 6:30 > > I saw an interesting book at the library today about something called PICK > OS. I didn't get to look through the entire book, but I read enough to see > that it refers to directories as dictionaries. IIRC, it is a dedicated O/S for use with a database system. Sort of a bootable database program for want of a better description. I (briefly) owned a Fujitsu computer that had PICK installed, it came out of a public library and was a very solid box, that weighed a LOT. (It had a ups built into it!) Fujitsu bought it off me! True! They were still supporting some in service and wanted some parts, offered me twice what I paid for it. (I rang them to get some info on the machine and they called back an hour later with a cash offer.) Never had more than a cursory look at the O/S, but I gather it's quite good at what it does, but it doesn't do much else. Multi terminal time share system. TV station I used to work for also had a PC based Pick System, the logging program (used to create the "logs" actually a plan of the order and length of programs that re to be put to air) ran on that and nothing else it seems... >It seems to take a novel approach, That's a fair description. It seems to be dedicated to just one task. I think there are other things it can do, but it's fairly limited... That's the limit of my knowledge, others on the list will doubtless know far more... Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

27 years

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Micropolis 1518 Jumper Settings

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:17:56 -0400 jpero(a)cgocable.net writes: >Thanks! But same old hat again, it's same thing you see on the >blue planet's website. Uh, okay. Micropolis being out of buisiness really makes things tough for owners of these drives. >> Looks like you should set for 512 bytes/sector, 83 spt, *hard* >> sectored. I wish I knew that Ultra 12f-24's were so damned rare . . . > >Really? What about it and why it's bit rare? Well, for one thing, Ultrastor is out of business, also. It doesn't look like they made too many of these 24MHz controllers (most of the ones I see offered for sale will not do 24MHz), and to make matters worse, individuals who *do* have them either won't sell, or want and arm and a leg for them. >And I really beg to anyone on this list to pool their experiences to >"pull" up the ESDI performance because I'm getting subpar >performance for a "high" end hd like 1538 with 71 sectors (1518 is >83 sectors) both hds should have screamed instead of plodded >along. About 600KPS out of that 1538, yuk. I got over 800kps on >that same controller with a Miniscribe 3180E on that paltry 36 >sectors. > >Is there's a controller card that does much better than this Ultrastor >12F24?! Oh, I've one computer based on EISA. Well, I know of only two other *solid* possibilities: The OMTI/SMS 8640, and the DTC 6282-24. ANother one is iffy: the WD 1009. I have gotten mixed reports on this one: SOme sources say it will do 24MHz no problemo. Some say no way Jose. I've been looking for all of these. Zip. Nada. (Unless I was willing to fork over $90 to a dealer for an 8640. >Oh, anyone knows of same HDAs that uses SCSI interface board >in place of ESDI, I want to know what model it shares same HDA >for each? 1518 and 1538. Uh, I know what you've got in mind, but you will not be able to swap the "interface" board to a different HDA. Reason is, when these are made, the board is 'married' to that HDA using jumper settings and stuff (the ones with glyptol dripped on them so you can't remove them by accident). Each one is different (it has something to do with the servo head, I think). Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years

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GeoWorks -- Commodore/Apple/PC?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 99-04-10 22:26:30 EDT, you write: > Does anyone have a copy of the Apple version that they would want to sell > (or copy)? I also have a font/image pack for the PC version, if anyone > wants a copy (I'll have to check them to see if they're good or not first, > though. I've version 2.1 (?) on 3.5 disks that could be copied, although i've heard of possible copy protection issues. i presume copy ][+ 9.0 could do it. anyone know?

27 years

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GeoWorks -- Commodore/Apple/PC?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Hi! I Used to have a Commodore 128 that had GeoWorks on it (I think it was actually GEOS, or something like that). I also have a box and font/graphics set for the PC version or GeoWorks. I've also heard that there was a version of it for the Apple // series. Does anyone have a copy of the Apple version that they would want to sell (or copy)? I also have a font/image pack for the PC version, if anyone wants a copy (I'll have to check them to see if they're good or not first, though. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The IBM entry into the PC market was in mid-1981, I think, and the Model-3 <was rushed to get out ahead of it. The Apple-II exlposion wasn't quite <underway yet, but the handwriting was on the wall. No. By then the apple and trs80 were common as house flies. In fact in 1980 we used Apples and TRS80s running a similar program for forcasting as they were in wide use around the shop. They were both in the market in terms of volumes nearing a 500k system each if not more by 1980. the PC wasn't an impact until 82 maybe 83. Memories and events seem to get compressed or expanded. I's even say the PC was not a serious contender till mid 83. Allison

27 years

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seagate st1280n

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi Daniel, ---------- > From: Daniel T. Burrows <danburrows(a)mindspring.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: seagate st1280n > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 6:18 PM > > Try http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/st1480n.shtml > Dan thanks a lot, that was what i needed. (Haven't see that they are the same besides of the capacity ;-)) cheers, emanuel

27 years

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new hamfest additions

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

one good thing about being a hamfest vendor is that you get to see what's for sale the previous night and free food. so far, i bought an apple /// with profile. what's even better is that i got a bunch of documentation and system disks with it like business basic, device driver manual, apple access ///, apple writer ///, owner's guide, apple backup, utilities, profile drivers and demos. even got the owners manual and a copy of castle wolfenstein in original packaging. time to make backups of all this stuff. mostly pc items for sale, but did see a few portable PS/2s and some S100 bus cards. are they worth picking up? also bought 10 TI99 carts and the speech box earlier today.

27 years

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PCMCIA

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 99-04-10 20:46:42 EDT, you write: > This is possibly too new for this list, so please excuse me if I offend > anyone... > > I was wondering if any of you might have a copy of PCMICA drivers, such as > might have been shipped with a modem or other card? > > I'm in the process of resurrecting my NCR Safari, but the only drivers > that came with it are a simple memory card driver/formatter. > > Thanks... > <<<John>>> some drivers are just point enablers which basically get the card working and that's it. it also depends on what type pc cards you want to use. or, you could try installing pcdos7. it has phoenix pc card drivers that can be installed.

27 years

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8/E PSU resolution

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Just out of curiousity, which fuse is missing? I was rushed, so I didn't really notice the rating. It was the middle one on the cover latch side (left side of the case as you look at the front panel) >Another thing. I trust you have the little jumper plugs in the 3 pin >mate-n-lock sockets on the power supply? If not, the machine won't power >up. These sockets are _not_ the same as the ones on a PDP11 power >controller. You need to short the middle pin to one end pin on one socket >and the middle pin to the other end pin on the other socket. Aha... There is only one of those in (that I remember)... Which one is shorted which way (or is it sufficient to have one short one way and the other to short the other way?) Sorry, I haven't looked at the printset yet... that's the reason for the stupid question... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

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PCMCIA

by jruschme＠exit109.com

Hi! This is possibly too new for this list, so please excuse me if I offend anyone... I was wondering if any of you might have a copy of PCMICA drivers, such as might have been shipped with a modem or other card? I'm in the process of resurrecting my NCR Safari, but the only drivers that came with it are a simple memory card driver/formatter. Thanks... <<<John>>>

27 years

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8/E PSU resolution

by mbg＠world.std.com

I didn't get a chance to take pictures of it today, but I did take a look at my 'long' 8/e... The cover is solid. I didn't take a look at the hinged side, but the latch side has hexagonal holes for venting. The tolerences seem very tight between the metal of the case and some very exposed wiring terminals... As for my 8/e, although it hums when I apply power, nothing happened when I turned it on... I checked the fuses, and one of them is missing... I'll try it again when I replace the fuse (I really should have checked that to begin with...) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

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seagate st1280n

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

Try http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/st1480n.shtml Dan >Hi all, > >anybody has a manual for this disks ? > >thanks, >emanuel >

27 years

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Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs

by mbg＠world.std.com

> <Does anyone remember a similar electronics store called "Lafayette"? They ... > They were nothing like TANDY. ... > They were long gone by '79. >Correct...nothing like *Tandy*, but quite similar to Radio Shack ... >perhaps with a better mail order line, IIRC and a bit more oriented >towards parts and radio. The last one I saw was in Sunnyvale/Santa >Clara (here in the Bay Area) around 1980/1981. Lafayette similar to Radio Shack? Bite your tongue... I remember lafayette as having better quality stuff than Radio Shack, regardless of what I was looking for... I remember going over there all the time with my father when I was young... If you wanted something built to last, you got lafayette. If you wanted something built out of cheap plastic, you went to Radio Shack... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

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source for foam filter material

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

>> Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter >> material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? >> These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and >> the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture >> large particles such as lint. Check your local DEC scrapper. The back doors from SA800's, TU8x, and many system doors had large sheets of it held in place with Velcro like strips. I save them from all the systems that go through here for replacement usage. They are about 1/2 inch thick. Dan

27 years

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Odd board find

by jruschme＠exit109.com

I came across an odd board in the dumpster at work today. Hopefully one of you might recognize it. It appears to be some sort of bubble memory board. Details: Small board, approx. the size of a 5.25" floppy drive board 2x40-pin Berg headers at one end 2x36-pin edge connectors at the other 2 very small pushbuttons 3 LEDs labelled: ERR EN RUN Obvious chips: ROM labelled "RCB1.1" Z80A Intel D7220-1 Intel 7110A-1 bubble memory module Lots of 74LS-family chips Markings: Bubbl-tec division of PC/M, Inc. Copyright 1984 PC/M INC. R-II-AM-BUBBL-A Anybody recognize this one? <<<John>>>

27 years

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OT: copying OS/2 Warp

by emu＠ecubics.com

---------- > From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: OT: copying OS/2 Warp > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:41 AM > > Last I checked OS/2 Warp V3 and V4 were both available. I've heard a new > version is actually in the works (despite the fact I used to be a huge OS/2 > fan I find that a little hard to believe). AFIK, that's no new version, but a major cleanup. ( A huge OS/2 fan for a long time too) cheers, emanuel

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<logic, but it's beed field-modified (I guess) to take the LED modules in <the lamp sockets. The preheat resistors have been cut out. < <No idea if this was done by DEC or not (it was done before I got the <machine), but it is another possible frontpanel. Common field change but not from or by DEC. Allison

27 years

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8/E PSU resolution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<And on mine this board: < <>M837 MC8E Extended Memory and Time Share Control < <Is right in front of the RFI shield (and core stack) Sort of "all <components of the memory subsystem together" kind of thing :-) Where the 837 goes was less important. Generally the rule was terminator in last slot and timing generator in the first one behind the FP. Then the RFI shield close as possible to the firrst core card set. Other than that there were few rules. allison

27 years

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Variac

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

I have a Variac here that I need help connecting up. The terminals on it are as follows: O 2 4 O | | wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww / \ O O <--><------100V------><--> 20v | 20v O The "2" and "4" are what is labelled on those terminals. The "O" are the terminal connectors. The "w"'s are windings as depicted on the terminal panel. The panel also shows the voltages as depicted. I'm assuming the output is 2 and 4. But what is the input? The 20v sections seemingly say that you can tap off of them to get some combination of 20V, 120V or 140V? Please help! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]

27 years

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seagate st1280n

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi all, anybody has a manual for this disks ? thanks, emanuel

27 years

1
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8/E PSU resolution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I rewired the plug on J3 to supply 5V at pin #3 (rather than going to the <voltage regulator board) and both backplanes are now functional! Running <Allison's worm program with the memory in back and the CPU and stuff in fro Congrats! Here is the lineup from mine and the recommended board layout. 54-09668 KC8FL PDP-8/F Programmer's Console M8330 KK8E Timing board, replaces M833 M8310 KK8E Major register control M8300 KK8E Major registers M837 MC8E Extended Memory and Time Share Control *space M8650 KL8E Asynchronous Data Control (current loop or RS232) M8652 KL8JA Terminal Control (UART based, double buffered) *space M849 KK8E RFI shield G111C MM8EJ 8K Memory sense/inhibit G619A MM8E Memory stack (B,M) G227C MM8E Memory X/Y drivers *space M8320 KK8E Bus loads Reminder, core runs warm and likes cooling. Allison

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Too bad it's wrong. It misses a few details bit it is essentially correct. Do research before you indite the document. <It makes it seem as if there was a box that was designated PDP-8/E and it <had a particular configuration that was retired until the introduction of <new box with the designation of PDP-8/F. This isn't supported by the eviden No. read the whole FAQ to get the full picture. that was an excerpt. <What really happened, and I have several independent confirmations of same <is that the PDP-8/E system evolved into the PDP-8/F in a series of steps. <Depending on the date code the machine was configured differently. Yes and sorta. the 8E was the large box and remained as the "big version". As a cost moderating measure the smaller 8m/f versions were created for more limited expansion and with a lower basic cost. <The evolution vectors were as follows: < Module updates - example M833 - M8330, M831 - > M8310 Bug fixes. early in the 8E life and nearly predating the later omnibus 8s. The original designs had poor margins and too much green wire. Even later ones have green wire. < Chassis updates - Long box, single OMNI BUS < Long box dual OMNI BUS < Short box single OMNIBUS Linear PSU on side. < Short box single OMNIBUS Switching PSU in Rear version replaced the really broken side mounted PS version. The switcher was not the best design as it was fairly new technology. < Front Panel Updates: Diode logic + 8v LAMPS Early 8Es only. Driven by manufacturability. < TTL logic + 6v LAMPS Bulk of production and the common verison in the 8E < TTL logic + LEDs in lamp sockets Never made, it was a field third party retrofit. < TTL Logic + LEDS 8F/M pannel later in design than the 8e v2. < PSU updates - Long linear PSU < Short linear PSU < Short Switching PSU (types A and B) Not updates litereally differnt products with overlapping production lives save for the two switchers. <At some point in this evolution some marketroid decided to change the name <from 8/e to 8/f. The OEM version of this platform was called the 8/m and Sorry no! the 8E remained in production and the 8f was the short 20 slot machine and aimed at lowering the cost for those that didn't need/want 38 slots. <included an optional limited function front panel (although all 8/M's I've <seen so far had the programmers panel but that's only about a dozen so who <can say) The 8M was a fairly standard menu machine with the limited function panel. It's options included a full function pannel (if you were a volume customer custom colors and board mixes). <I happen to have an 8/e that is: < Short box < 6v LAMPs plus TTL front panel < Side mount PSU That is not an 8E, it a frankenmonster in a 8m crate. <I recently picked up an 8/e chassis that had the dual OMNIBUS backplanes. That is an 8E. <It is this one that doesn't have a cover. It may have been mounted in a <desk, I don't know (it also didn't have a front panel but I can use my <other 8/E front panel with it) The 8e was the model with the long linear PSU on the side and the dual omnibusses. <My guess is that the evolution of the 8/E was driven by the introduction o <the 11/20 since these changes seem have occurred between 1970 and 1972. Al No. the two were entirely differnet development and had the common thread of newer low cost TTL available. <8/E's with date codes prior to 1970 appear to be the diode front panel <type, All 8/E's after 1972 appear to be either 8/F's or 8/Ms (until the 8/ <came out). 8Es were 1970 introduction. Parts will have datecodes up to a year older than that. <The 8/M and 8/F are primarily differentiated by different inserts/color <schemes, electrically they appear to be identical. The solder mask of the <front panel says "8/E" The same pannel was used for all. It was an assembly level options that set them apart. Since parts were swapable there were a lot of variations due to parts being moved as needed to maintain systems or make working ones. The omnibus series of PDP-8s were all driven by lowering costs and product improvements. Even the later 8As were KK8e cpus (m8330/8310/8320/8300). The actual 8A CPU (kk8a?) was a hex module. Allison

27 years

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2
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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by edick＠idcomm.com

Please see imbedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 1:44 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism ><It would be well to get the timelines aligned. The model 1 was of 1977 ><vintage. The model -3 was worked up in the late '70's before Apple got it ><juggernaut rolling. Radio Shack had a real chance to make the microcompute > >Model 1 (base trs80) was 1977 (mid year). I was part of the start up in >the computer depot repair and computer store startup. That's what I recall, as well. >The next machine did not ship until after august 1979! I was there up to >that point. Actually I think it was the 1980s(or 1980!) that the next >version of the TRS80 family shipped. The IBM entry into the PC market was in mid-1981, I think, and the Model-3 was rushed to get out ahead of it. The Apple-II exlposion wasn't quite underway yet, but the handwriting was on the wall. >The motly collection of parts... For years RS ment surplus parts in plastic >bags and the late 70s was sort of their weaning. Except the purchasing >mindset was there. > >If anything can be said... they were one of the few that didn't go broke >shipping computers. That's why they'd have been a force to be reckoned with if they'd ever shipped anything really decent. >Oh, and Apple shipped their machine the same year as the TRS80. so they >represent the state of the art for 1977 for cost vs tradeoffs. > >Allison > >

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Q-bus pinout

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Hello, is the Q-bus pinout on line? I've got an extender card and I'd like to know if it was compatible or not. Also a pointer to the printset for the PDP-8/e H724 PSU would be good, I've got one that is half dead (fortunately it is the back half so with the computer in the front half it runs!) --Chuck

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

> There should be >some plastic catches (or more likely the remains of same) on the PSU. I've found that most half-inch tape seals have latches which are quite amenable to being used as replacements for the original plastic catches :-). >BTW, one of the few pieces of poor design in this machine is that you >have to take the left side rackmount rail off the box before you can get >the PSU out. This means you have to take the entire (heavy) machine out >the rack before you can remove the PSU. If you use short 10-32x1/4" screws on the left rail, it's a lot easier to take the PSU out. (I thought everyone shortened these screws!) With the original screws (3/4"), it is possible to get the PSU in and out with the rail attached, but it is quite difficult and requires that the PSU be inserted at a rather awkward angle. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

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source for foam filter material

by edick＠idcomm.com

At your local discount store, you should be able to find some fairly large scouring sponges, I've found that these work adequately as filters, provided you put a layer of porous cloth over the downstream side to catch the finest particles. If you're fortunate enough to find the really fine ones, the cloth isn't needed. These come in 1/4" thick postcard-sized sheets, which I usually cut up anyway, so give these a try and see if they meet your needs. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:33 PM Subject: source for foam filter material >Does anyone know where I might be able to buy some thin black foam filter >material, to replace the stuiff that was used on my Teral computers? >These systems have a large fan that draws air into the computer, and >the intake air goes through this very thin filter, in order to capture >large particles such as lint. > >After 22+ years, that foam is nothing more than dust. > >I would need something almost 5 inches wide, that i could then trim to >the proper shape. > >-Lawrence LeMay

27 years

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OT: copying OS/2 Warp

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 99-04-09 19:24:05 EDT, you write: > Hi, > I managed to borrow a hard drive with OS/2 warp on it from someone. I want > to copy it onto my own drive. How do I do this? I know that in DOS, I > would do a sys command to make the drive bootable. There is no sys command > here. What should I do? > os2 has sysinstx instead. you'll need to boot from 3 os2 utility disks and then invoke the command.

27 years

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Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Does anyone remember a similar electronics store called "Lafayette"? They <were a big chain, probably not nearly as big as Tandy Radio Shack though; <I think they went under in 1980 or 1981. They were nothing like TANDY. I lived in the region back then, they were into electronics and audio. They were long gone by '79. allison

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<It would be well to get the timelines aligned. The model 1 was of 1977 <vintage. The model -3 was worked up in the late '70's before Apple got it <juggernaut rolling. Radio Shack had a real chance to make the microcompute Model 1 (base trs80) was 1977 (mid year). I was part of the start up in the computer depot repair and computer store startup. The next machine did not ship until after august 1979! I was there up to that point. Actually I think it was the 1980s(or 1980!) that the next version of the TRS80 family shipped. The motly collection of parts... For years RS ment surplus parts in plastic bags and the late 70s was sort of their weaning. Except the purchasing mindset was there. If anything can be said... they were one of the few that didn't go broke shipping computers. Oh, and Apple shipped their machine the same year as the TRS80. so the represent the state of the art for 1977 for cost vs tradeoffs. Allison

27 years

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Heathkit H-8 questions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? What could one <do with it? From the photo it has a 16 key keypad, numbers 1-9 and the <math symbols, decimal point, and 2 others i can't make out. What are <those 2 keys? I'm not trying to buy it, I wouldn't know what to do <with it even if i did. just curious. TIA. It was an 8080 machine with a oddball bus that was better than s100. The keypad on the front was a far friendlier substitute for the switches and lights. What can you do with it... it's a computer. not much I guess. ;) Allison

27 years

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PDP-8 lineage

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>That is not an 8E, it a frankenmonster in a 8m crate. < <It was sold by DEC as an 8/E in the short box (granted its the 8/F box but <its the only 8 which I got from the original owner who still had the <paperwork. And on the back on the configuration chart it has the module <list and on the model number plate there is a generic tag market Model 8/_ <with a space that the same person who wrote the module configuration wrote <the letter 'e'. (and of course the front panel says 8/E and it has lamps <not LEDs). Anyway, the point is moot since I've got a long box and still n <hernia I could move the panel over to it :-) the 8m had lamps if the KC8E was installed. Only the 8F had leds. Also

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< <Check on the mesh cover and the slots in the right hand side. The PSU <though has no indication that it ever had any catches on it (no adhesive <residue at all) Perhaps it was mounted in a desk or something. the cover was part of the air flow system and required or a case that supplied a close cowling was needed. Allison

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by edick＠idcomm.com

At the risk of becoming the resident infidel . . . The 6502, particularly in its later incarnation by Rockwell embodied the cleverness fostered by its earlier versions and the non-Intel family of processors. How the elegance of their instruction set became lost is a mystery to me. The most primitive analysis of the microcontroller's task is (1) fetch input signals, (2) take appropriate action. Now this is oversimplified to the max, but if you consider a comfortable and quick way to do this on most any processor, you'll quickly get a feel for what I mean to say, even though I can't easily articulate it. On inspection, the "general" way to handle this is with a "computed go-to." That doesn't say it's the ONLY way, but it's a way which does the job ALWAYS. Just to get my hands around the problem, let's assume we're making a simple communication device which process ASCII characters, mostly, by way of two serial ports, one in, one out. We can then hook up the UARTs such that the lsb is always grounded and the 7-bit ASCII appears left justified in the UART's data register. On a 65C02 from Rockwell (making the distinction because there were several CMOS 6502's, all slightly different) you load the input value into an index register and then jump, indexed indirect, to the routine which is appropriate for that pattern of inputs. This requires, then, that you have a table with 256 bytes, more correctly 128 words, with each word the address of the routine which is used to process the left-justified ASCII data. This is tremendously fast! It requires no STACK, and it requires only two instructions. Another way of doing this involves building a stack frame and loading the return address with a value looked up in a table, then executing a return. This can be done with any number of processors. On a Z-80 you can jmp HL, and I'm sure there are other neat ways of doing this simple thing. I've never seen anything more elegant than that simplistic sequence on the 65C02. How the MOTOROLA people let this go by the wayside in the design of their 6809, 6801, 68K family, and countless others puzzles me. I've not made an extensive study of other processors, but I have looked at a few. The only processor I've used which has a similar mechanism at its disposal is the 8051 core. It has a data register which can be used as an offset for a jump instruction. Now, I doubt that anything that simple can be used to discriminate between what's "best" and what's not, but it's for certain that it's a nice feature not available on the 6809. I used the 6809 extensively while I was in the aerospace industry, and found it fairly friendly. BUT, it still is relatively slow, as compared with processors of the same generation from sources clever enough to arrange the bytes the other way around in memory so you didn't have to fetch and the discard a high byte when there wasn't one. Fortunately, many tasks don't require a really fast processor. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 4:46 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >> >It proved software was more important than hardware. The best cpu with no >> >software was still nothing. The z80 was maybe the best at the moment but >> >the 6502 was as versitile and plenty fast enough to make up for it's >> >limitations. >> >> >> There were many people who disagreed with that performance comparison. The >> two processors (I used them both extensively) were different enough that >> comparison and contrast was not easy. The Z-80 had many registers and a >> rich instruction set of which much was awkward and difficult to use. The >> 6502 had fewer registers and fewer instructions but they were amplified by >> addressing modes not readily available to the Z-80 user, particularly if his > >IMHO, the best of the 8-bitters was the 6809 (very clean instruction set >and quite fast), but that came out rather too late to be a serious >competitor to the 6502/Z80. > >I grew up on the Z80, and for a time I thought that the 6502 was a >horrible little chip. But then I got to use a 6502 in the BBC micro and I >totally revised my opinion of it. The 6502 instruction set was simple and >fairly clean. For high-level languages it was a fine processor (BBC basic >on a 2MHz 6502 was faster than similar BASICs on 4MHz Z80 machines). > >> >> The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than the >> 16x64, it could have solidly supported double-density FD's (in the model 3) > >I've never had any problems with the M3 disk controller, and I've used it >pretty extensively (well, I did have a 1793 die once, but that's not a >design problem). > >> and it could have operated at about 4MHz rather than the 2.-something it >> used, and it could have switched in and out the ROM so it could run CP/M but >> for the greed of Tandy Corp. It would have cost them an additional $5 and > >Err.. That sounds very like the Model 4 to me. Lets see, 80*24 screen, 4MHz >CPU, ROM can be switched out... Yes, a model 4. Of course it used the >same disk controller as the M3, so if you had problems with that you'd >still have problems... > >> on the Apple II. If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the >> table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. > >No. Never forget the 3 magic letters 'IBM'. That's why the PC was >succesful. Technically there were plenty of better machines around at the >time, but they didn't have the appeal of coming from a company that >_every_ computer centre and DP manager had heard of. > >-tony >

27 years

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Variac

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Hi Sam, At 03:04 PM 4/10/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I have a Variac here that I need help connecting up. > >The panel also shows the voltages as depicted. I'm assuming the output is >2 and 4. But what is the input? > >The 20v sections seemingly say that you can tap off of them to get some >combination of 20V, 120V or 140V? > Normally the input would be across a 100+20=120 V section (one wire at the CCW end = common, neutral). The output would be across the arm and common so you would get 0 to 140 volts as you turn the dial CW. -Dave

27 years

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Heathkit H-8 questions

by fpp＠concentric.net

> I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? > The year was about 1976-77. Saw it at the Heathkit store in LA. That > and the 16 convinced them to go full steam into computers and rest is > out of business history! >Don't you mean the H-11? Ah, yes you are right it was the 11. I remember looking at a DEC terminal , chain drive printer and keyboard for about $1500. It was cheaper at Heath than any other dealer. Had to be ordered though as the warranty started when it left the DEC loading dock.

27 years

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Identify this vector Graphics machine

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 11:27 PM 4/9/99 -0700, George wrote: >Somebody liked it.... It is gone! George, That's becuase you ignored the first rule of hamfest, surplus store and trift store shopping: If it looks interesting, buy it! Joe

27 years

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[OT] <10 yo DG Aviion

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

---------- > From: David Williams <dlw(a)trailingedge.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: [OT] <10 yo DG Aviion > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 6:20 > > I know this system isn't 10 years old yet, but a company I use to > work for gave me a 88000 based Data General Aviion. I believe it is > an AV 4625 model if I'm reading the back right. DG's site only > talks about P-II and P-III based Aviions with nothing about the > earlier 88000 based ones. Anyone have any web site pointers or > info on these for me? I'm currently hitting each of the main search > sites without much luck. I got one of those things. 33mhz 88k with 32mb ram and a couple of 500mb scsi drives. Not sure if it's the same model, but came loaded with DG unix, which I eventually managed to get in to. I did find a couple of sites with a fair bit of gear for the 88k. I'll dig up the url and mail it to you. Is your system complete? I lack the mouse and a monitor. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

27 years

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FM, MFM, and GCR channel codes (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive)

by edick＠idcomm.com

YES! and that's exactly why the pulse overlap was correctable with write-precompensation at least in hard disks at 10x the data rate. In general the amplitude of the pulses was sufficient to be detected by the usual circuitry, but because the timing was quite far off due to the peak shift introduced by the summing effect of the head/media combination. Precompensation, which was not needed for FM, was between 188 and 125 nsec, depending on the drives in use. On the older drives, 188 was pretty common. The "bit-shift" was mitigated somewhat by the reduction of write-current on the inner tracks. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 4:36 AM Subject: Re: FM, MFM, and GCR channel codes (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive) >I wrote: > >> I thought about this for a few minutes. Ignoring rise and fall times, >> for 250 kHz FM, I expect to see spectral peaks at 250 kHz and 500 kHz. >> >> For 500 kHz MFM, I expect to see peaks at 250 kHz, 375 kHz, and 500 kHz. > >Oops, I wasn't thinking clearly enough about how the write channel works, so I >was off by a factor of two. That should have been 125 and 250 kHz for the FM >case, and 125, 187.5, and 250 kHz for the MFM case. > >> Therefore, it seems to me that a channel with reasonably flat response from >> 250 kHz to 500 kHz should be able to handle either 250 kHz FM or 500 kHz > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Make that > 125 kHz to 250 kHz >

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by edick＠idcomm.com

Anything's possible, of course, and when you haven't got access to what you're working with in terms of the organization, it doesn't help you to understand what their goals are. The unit we delivered, was rock solid, though. It would handle diskettes like nothing Tandy ever delivered, even much later, though much of the credit goes to the programmer who wrote the low-level code. I avoided coding whenever I could, and, I guess, still do. By means of a slide-switch, it changed the memory map such that hardware appeared as hardware should, in one position for TRSDOS, and the other for CP/M. We got paid in full, and promptly, so I guess the RS people weren't disappointed. I don't know the history of the Model-1, I know they had a much better prototype at their disposal than the production units they chose to ship. It always "hurt" just a bit to see them ship that piece of dirt when they had such a decent option. The sad thing is, the marketplace proved we were on the right track. People wanted to use the box for CP/M, so they bought a "mapper" which, as an option, remapped the addresses to make the low-end ROM go away and replace it with RAM. Somebody sold a video enhancement which attempted to fudge the video around so it displayed 24x80, but I'd like to have seen that at least once, and there were several "enhanced" data separators on the market for the model-3. As for the model 2, I never saw one of these that wasn't for sale. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 3:47 AM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism >On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The RS people had their heads wedged, probably due to politics. They used a >> strange mix of parts, seemingly cobbled together from various vendors' app >> notes. Their FDC used a TI TTL VCO, a Motorola phase detector, and a >> Western Digital controller chip. Additionally they used some wierd TI clock >> generator and some other stuff I couldn't justify. Their clock recovery >> circuit was pretty poor, i.e. poorer than average, and cost about 6x what I >> was used to seeing. Their dynamic memory handling wasn't any sort of slick, >> nor was their video circuit. > >Rumor has it the Model 1 design was stolen from a third party consultant >by a less than talented head engineer at Radio Shack, and purportedly made >into the production model, bugs and all, so its not surprising that other >RS hardware was designed shoddily. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

27 years

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Speaking of Tandy & TRS-80 (was: Re: What if,... early PCs

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

On Saturday, April 10, 1999 10:16 AM, Charles P. Hobbs [SMTP:transit@primenet.com] wrote: > > > Does anyone remember a similar electronics store called "Lafayette"? They > were a big chain, probably not nearly as big as Tandy Radio Shack though; > I think they went under in 1980 or 1981 I used to visit the Lafayette store in Ft. Lauderdale on a regular basis. IIRC this was in the Early 70's. The store primarily had audio gear, HAM equipment, and electronics components. Similar to the Radio Shacks of that time. As a matter of fact, I still have a Lafayette Stereo Amplifier at home. I used it for about 10 years then it quit working on one channel. Probably a bad output transister. I just never got around to fixing it... I don't recall ever seeing any digital stuff in the stores. Of course this was VERY early in the micro-processor development stage. Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by edick＠idcomm.com

In late 1979-and much of 1980, I worked for a consultant here in the Colorado front-range, who happened to have a contract with Tandy, as did several others, to produce a prototype of the next generation personal computer for Radio Shack. There were sobstantial guidelines and some direction, e.g. the packaging was more or less determined already, and the noise and power supply characteristics were handed to us, but we had quite liberal discretion as to what would go into our prototype. I was tasked with the memory subsystems, including rotating memories, as I had specifically applicable skills which they desired. ( I had built several really solid all-digital clock recovery circuits which worked with both FM and MFM, among other modulation schemes, and made them work with the then new winchester disks in 5.25" form factor. I also had extensive experience with DRAMs. ) We ended up with the creature I described a couple of posts ago. Tandy happily paid us but later told us that the $5 or so which it cost over and above the cheapest prototype presented them by one of the other firms similar to ours, and since they anticipated sales of about 1M units, they wanted the 5 million for themselves. That's why I put forth the detailed lamentation. It's true, they eventually came around, but not until after it was too late. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 2:54 PM Subject: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism >In other words, if RS were to have released their Model FOUR at about the >time that they came out with their model ONE, then they might have had >more of a competitive advantage. Hmmm. > >The RCA TV set design that RS used for a monitor for the model 1 was NOT >really adequate for 80x24 display. (YES, I've done it.) >Double density was NOT readily achievable in 1978. And the poor quality >double density of the model 3 was comparable to the rest of the industry. >And RADIO SHACK was NOT capable of being THAT much of a technology leader! > > >OTOH, when RS came out with the model 3 a few years later, that WOULD have >been an appropriate time to make ALL of the model 4 changes, including >revising the memory map (to permit CP/M), 80x24 display, Ctrl key, etc. > > >Now, if intel were to have come out with the 233 Pentium in the 80s... >If Apple were to have come out with the Mac in the 70s... >If IBM were to have come out with the PC in the 60s,... >If Windoze were reliable,... > > >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> In the late '70's, I think the microcomputer market was highly simplistic >> with respect to what it is today. Take a look at the comments I've imbedded >> in your text below. >> >> >> The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than >> the >> >> <snip> >> >> >> If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the >> >> table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. >> >> Yes, that's true, but, the 4MHz+ (4.9152 MHz, actually) Z-80B with 64K of >> RAM, a 24x80-charcter display, double-density diskette interface that >> actually worked, built-in capability to install a hard disk, AND the ability >> to run CP/M right out of the box, in 1978-1979 e.g. at the fall '78 COMDEX, >> which was BEFORE there were "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple" >> would have been hard to beat . . . particularly under the aegis of a >> nation-wide company with these facilities under one management already in >> place. Remember APPLE had to rely on small-time stores like Computerland >> for distribution, and their service, mostly indirect, was slow and costly. >> >> The things which seemed to make the Apple fit the business model the best >> (before Visicalc) was the 24x80-character display and the 8" diskette drives >> sitting next to it. With the aid of the Videx video display adapter and the >> Sorrento Valley Associates' 8" disk drive interface, the machine suddenly >> began to look like what people had come to expect when they learned about >> computers and how to use them. >I wasn't aware that the SVA drive ever had significant market share; >certainly not enough for IT to have been what made the ][ popular. > >> It's true that "He with the biggest dick didn't always go home with the >> babe" but you mustn't forget that in this case, the dick was overtly >> measured and advertised. Whereas the above described TRS80-III wouldn't >> have been the fastest on the market, it had the packaging and the ability to >> turn into much more computer for much less money than the Apple, though with >> the gradually and later not so gradual increase in Apple's market share, >> they were able to become somewhat more competitive in spite of the high cost >> of distribution and service. The way it turned out, Tandy Corp ended up >> with precisely the smallest, didn't it? A barely-over 2MHz processor which >> stroked memory more at about 1.5 microsecond per memory cycle??? It was >> obvious to everyone who used the Radio Shack model III that their computer >> was SLOW. The Z-80-card in the Apple was significantly (and noticeably) >> faster. The two machines otherwise occupied about the same desk space, and, >> aside from the stupid, Stupid, STUPID choice to leave the Tandy machine's >> display at 16 lines of 64 characters (about half of what was on a 24x80, and >> about what was on an Apple with the standard display), they were quite >> similar. Of course the Radio Shack machine was SLOW . . . >

27 years

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OT: copying OS/2 Warp

by gareth.knight2＠which.net

Zane H. Healy wrote: >Last I checked OS/2 Warp V3 and V4 were both available. I've heard a new >version is actually in the works (despite the fact I used to be a huge OS/2 >fan I find that a little hard to believe). In its favour OS/2 does have one of the fastest implementations of Java 1. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star"

27 years

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FM, MFM, and GCR channel codes (was Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>Dick wrote: >> One interesting thing about the Apple GCR modulation format is that it >> essentially was a "double-density" technique. >Tim wrote: >> Eric said the same thing, and I disagree with you both. To me (and all >I said no such thing. I said that Apple used FM for the address fields, >and that the GCR they used for data fields was more efficient than FM, and >less efficient than MFM. I think you're confused as to what I was disagreeing with, and that's probably my fault for not explaining myself more clearly. I was disagreeing with what I believe to be your assertion, Eric, that you can take any FM data channel, pump about 50% more data through it with GCR, and pump twice as much data through it with MFM. There are twice as many places in a MFM data stream where a transition *may* take place, as compared to a FM data stream at the same data rate. The maximum number of transitions per time remains the same. At first glance, this might lead you to believe that the bandwidth needed for a FM encoding that gives you a data rate of 250kHz will also support a MFM encoding at 500kHz. It isn't this simple; if you do a Fourier transform of the MFM stream you'll see that you do indeed more bandwidth for MFM. On the other hand, a GCR data stream over the same circuit will give you a data rate of 375 kHz or so (depending on the details of the GCR) without requiring more bandwidth than the 250kHz FM channel. (Admittedly the GCR distribution of energy in that bandwidth will be more even than the FM distribution of energy - but that's precisely why you're able to pump more data through.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

---------- > From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 7:10 > Rumor has it the Model 1 design was stolen from a third party consultant > by a less than talented head engineer at Radio Shack, and purportedly made > into the production model, bugs and all, so its not surprising that other > RS hardware was designed shoddily. RS is colloquial for "Rat Sh-t" in Oz, They don't market under that name here, but as Tandy or Micronta. (Accurate product description though isn't it?) Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 5:34 PM Subject: Re: What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >> <Double density was NOT readily achievable in 1978. And the poor quality >> My dog, don't tell DEC that or intel. > >Sorry, I should have said that it was not readily achievable for RADIO >SHACK, not that it wasn't possible. It took RS a few more years before >they were ready to have MFM in one of their consumer level machines. >RS's early FM had some data separation problems; I assume that that was >due to trying to keep the cost too low? > The RS people had their heads wedged, probably due to politics. They used a strange mix of parts, seemingly cobbled together from various vendors' app notes. Their FDC used a TI TTL VCO, a Motorola phase detector, and a Western Digital controller chip. Additionally they used some wierd TI clock generator and some other stuff I couldn't justify. Their clock recovery circuit was pretty poor, i.e. poorer than average, and cost about 6x what I was used to seeing. Their dynamic memory handling wasn't any sort of slick, nor was their video circuit. They could have used a circuit similar to what the Xerox 820 had from day 1. It was an old design from a simple terminal and would freuently work on a modified TV set, which is all RS was shipping anyway. It's clear that there was politics and corruption at the top. Dick >

27 years

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Mac Media Players

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Does anyone know of a MIDI / Media (wav?) player for a Mac that will run on a Mac Portable with System 7.5 and 4 MB RAM? Better yet, does anyone know of where (other than SUN Remarketing) to get a RAM upgrade for the Portable? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5

by edick＠idcomm.com

Since I have several of the drives, I do, indeed have the service documents for the model 277 (single-sided) drive. The difference between FM and MFM is not the rate at which thd data and clocks are written to the drive, but rather, the modulation technique itself. Instead of haveing a discretely presented clock 180-degrees out of phase with the data window, it has an imbedded clock, in which, like manchester code, the data is shifted in phase from the clock. If there is a long string of ones, they are written in phase, one pulse per clock, while if there's a long string of zeroes, the zeroes are represented by a string of pulses 180 degrees out of phase , omitting the first and last pulses in order to avoid crowding them to such extent that it violates the maximal flux reversal density. As a result, you get a modulated waveform which contains both the data and the clock in it in such a way that you can write and read double the amount you can write and read using FM, since FM automatically consumes half the channel bandwidth for discrete clock pulses. It should come as no surprise that this works much like Manchester Code. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 4:44 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 >> Actually, Persci floppy drives in 1976 or so were voice-coil (and quite >> a pain to maintain, even then - these days the glue that holds the >> optical graticules in place is often failing, and gluing and realigning >> from scratch is even harder, even with all the special Persci >> realignment jigs and electronic panels.) And a common modification > >Does anyone have the service manuals for these drives? I have one on my >old CASU S100 system, and although it's not failed yet, I'm sure I'll >have to fix it sometime. > >Are they any worse to maintain than RK05s, say? The overall design of the >positioner seems to be very similar. > >> >One interesting thing about the Apple GCR modulation format is that it >> >essentially was a "double-density" technique. >> >> Eric said the same thing, and I disagree with you both. To me (and all >> the tech pubs I've read) the density is how many flux transitions you can >> do per second (or revolution). GCR is a way of getting more real data with > >Hmm... Are you implying that conventional MFM double density is just FM >with a faster clock rate? Surely not. > >I thought the whole point of MFM was to reduce the number of flux >transitions per (user) data bit. An FM bit cell _always_ has a clock >transition, and may have a data transition as well. MFM removes some of >the 'wasted' clock transitions. > >> the same number of flux transitions. Apple GCR drives use single-density > >As, IMHO is MFM. > >-tony >

27 years

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Heathkit H-8 questions

by fpp＠concentric.net

I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? The year was about 1976-77. Saw it at the Heathkit store in LA. That and the 16 convinced them to go full steam into computers and rest is out of business history!

27 years

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Don Lancaster was Re: Ebay Mark-8 Plans

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 04:27 PM 4/9/99, Dave wrote: > >The seller also has the RE TVT plans by Don Lancaster. Speaking of Don Lancaster, has anyone asked him to speak at VCF or told him about this list? He's been involved with the home PCs since the beginning and is probably a wealth of infomation. Joe

27 years

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Heathkit H-8 questions

by bluoval＠mindspring.com

I saw a H-8 on eBay tonight. What year were these made? What could one do with it? From the photo it has a 16 key keypad, numbers 1-9 and the math symbols, decimal point, and 2 others i can't make out. What are those 2 keys? I'm not trying to buy it, I wouldn't know what to do with it even if i did. just curious. TIA.

27 years

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Timonium Hamfest

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

> From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)ricochet.net> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: RE: Timonium Hamfest > Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 1:08 > Dysania: (n) an inability to function early in the morning. > > I've got it bad That makes two of us. Had it long as I can remember. Didn't know there was a name for it. You learn something every day.... Cheers Geoff VK5KDR

27 years

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8/E PSU resolution

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

I rewired the plug on J3 to supply 5V at pin #3 (rather than going to the voltage regulator board) and both backplanes are now functional! Running Allison's worm program with the memory in back and the CPU and stuff in front. --Chuck

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>with positioning. They now use voice-coil actuators rather than steppers, >and therefore can make quite subtle adjustments in head-stack position >depending on what is read. Back in the early days, that wasn't so. Actually, Persci floppy drives in 1976 or so were voice-coil (and quite a pain to maintain, even then - these days the glue that holds the optical graticules in place is often failing, and gluing and realigning >from scratch is even harder, even with all the special Persci realignment jigs and electronic panels.) And a common modification to these drives (at least for folks like me who specialize in data recovery) is software-controlled offsets from the normal track positioning, something that does use the drive's ability to do fine positioning. >One interesting thing about the Apple GCR modulation format is that it >essentially was a "double-density" technique. Eric said the same thing, and I disagree with you both. To me (and all the tech pubs I've read) the density is how many flux transitions you can do per second (or revolution). GCR is a way of getting more real data with the same number of flux transitions. Apple GCR drives use single-density heads and single density data rates, a considerable cost saving factor in 1977. >cost plenty back then. This was at a time when Radio Shack still stayed >with single-density, and Apple exceeded their capacity easily. While using cheap single-density drives! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

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[RANTISH] Programming Stupidity

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

> From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 3:53 > > On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > You've already lost if you have to run Windoze whatever. I'd switch to > > something more stable in a minute, but the sad part is that Windoze is > > everywhere, so we have to teach our students to use it and the apps that > > run on it, because that's what they will likely find in the real world.. > > So are you preparing your students for 1 or 2 years out, or are you > preparing them for a lifetime? If you're just preparing them for the > first few years of their career, keep teaching them windows. Tell it to the employers. They ask for people with computer skills. But what they really want is people that are skilled in the use of Word, Excel and Access. When that situation changes, we'll happily shift to Linux or similar. For now, it has to be left to the University (we're Reception to Year 12, ie; Primary/High School) to teach about real operating systems etc. > However, if you want to give them the advantage over others that will > allow them to be more competitive, make more money and therefore get more > girls (and boys) start teaching them on Linux boxes. I'd like to do both, as Micro$oft skills are still very marketable, especially for young people in a high youth unemployment market. (Like around here) Sadly, very few companies/businesses within 100miles or so use anything but MS Office. (Apart from 2 ISP's) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

27 years

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Fooling with floppy drives

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 09/04/99 4:56:32 Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford(a)netwiz.net writes: << My plan right now is to first buy some more drives, then sit down with a batch and rubber gloves and clean and relube all of them at once. In fact I may seek out a box of "bad" floppies to add to my repair run next time I see them at the swap meet. Fortunately I just opened up a IIfx from a friendly trade and found two excellent condition drives (along with some giant double sized 8 MB simms). >> that's a good idea. better to find and hoard those old disk drives for parts than have them thrown away for good. that IIfx is nice machine also. treat those 8meg simms like gold. they're proprietary to the fx model.

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

PDP-8 tautology is clear, one only needs a set of DEC small computer handbooks to sort it out. My 1973 copy describes all three versions and their major differences very clearly. <Well, that's not how I read it. By my reading, Doug's writeup makes <it perfectly clear that 8/E's and 8/F's were produced simultaneously <and from a common pool of (largely, but not completely) compatible parts. Yes, and what isn't made clear is that pool of parts was an evolving one ove the years. <>The evolution vectors were as follows: <> Module updates - example M833 - M8330, M831 - > M8310 < <In the FAQ, Doug says on this subject: < <* Most of the early boards with 3 digit numbers were defective <* in one way or another, and the corrected boards added a trailing <* zero. Thus, the M833 was generally replaced with an M8330, and <* the M865 was replaced with the M8650. It was the easiest way to ducument the corrections at the modele level. the 54-class number changed as well. In later years depending on the change the module(s) (generic statment) would get letters tacked to the end (and the numbering would go from 2/5 to 2/5/2 and later to 2/5/2/3). <> Chassis updates - Long box, single OMNI BUS <> Long box dual OMNI BUS < <And in the FAQ Doug agrees with you: Long box single is an "as ordered" configuration variation if you ordered a plain 8E you would see one backplane. If you ordered a 32kw disk and tape system you can bet it would have two backplanes. A la carte connfiguration ordering was a PDP-8 characteristic and may have been a new concept to the industry. It was a very configurable machine. <There's no doubt that there were many ways to mix and match the <various components produced. I'm a bit uncertain why some folks <try to apply zoology so incessantly to their computers, when in real <life folks move parts between systems with wild abandon, but then <again zoology has always bored me to tears. That is also true to a point. But the E was always the long box and the F/M were shorter box and single bus. The fact that customers over 30 years would shuffle things around muddies the matters. then again the ability to do that is also an omnibus unique PDP-8 characteristic. Allison

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>>That being said (and yes I've sent Doug mail on this but its not exactly >>FAQ material unless you really want to restore them as I do) I'd appreciate >>pictures for the cover on the long one since I can fabricate a cover then. >On mine, it's just a big sheet metal panel, with tabes on the right >that go into slots on the chassis and with tape-seal type latches on >the left. No ventilation slots at all. There's a lip on every edge >except for the rear. After reading Tony's reply, I now realize what your question must be about: the ventilation holes on the right-hand side. On mine, there are two, both 6.5 inches high, the front one 4.5 inches wide and positioned roughly over the third through thirteenth cards, the rear one 6 inches wide and positioned roughly over the 8th through the last slot of the second backplane unit. Both holes have a grill of hexagonal mesh, about 1/4" spacing, welded on the right hand side. Does this help? And, to be more explicit about the lips, the front and left lips are about 3/4" of an inch. And the back panel has two slots, each roughly 2 3/8" wide. I think my maintenance books might have a drawing; if I find one, would a fax of that page help? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>>I know that folks here have traiditionally objected to outside FAQ's >>when instead the issue could be resolved by dozens of E-mails, but in >>this case Doug Jone's *PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options* answers >>the question of 8/E vs 8/F quite nicely: >Too bad it's wrong. >It makes it seem as if there was a box that was designated PDP-8/E and it >had a particular configuration that was retired until the introduction of a >new box with the designation of PDP-8/F. This isn't supported by the evidence. Well, that's not how I read it. By my reading, Doug's writeup makes it perfectly clear that 8/E's and 8/F's were produced simultaneously and from a common pool of (largely, but not completely) compatible parts. >What really happened, and I have several independent confirmations of same, >is that the PDP-8/E system evolved into the PDP-8/F in a series of steps. >Depending on the date code the machine was configured differently. And I think that Doug Jone's FAQ entry agrees with you here. >The evolution vectors were as follows: > Module updates - example M833 - M8330, M831 - > M8310 In the FAQ, Doug says on this subject: * Most of the early boards with 3 digit numbers were defective * in one way or another, and the corrected boards added a trailing * zero. Thus, the M833 was generally replaced with an M8330, and * the M865 was replaced with the M8650. If you look in the PDP8-Lovers/alt.sys.pdp8 archives, you'll find Charles Lasner going into great detail about the differences between the different revisions of boards. > Chassis updates - Long box, single OMNI BUS > Long box dual OMNI BUS And in the FAQ Doug agrees with you: * There were many other internal options. There was room in the * basic box for another 20 slot backplane; taking into account the * 2 slots occupied by the M935 bridge between the two backplanes, * this allowed 38 slots > Short box single OMNIBUS Linear PSU on side. > Short box single OMNIBUS Switching PSU in rear. And again, in the FAQ Doug agrees with you: * The original PDP-8/F box had a defective power * supply, but a revised (slightly larger) box corrected this * problem. > Front Panel Updates: Diode logic + 8v LAMPS > TTL logic + 6v LAMPS > TTL logic + LEDs in lamp sockets > TTL Logic + LEDS And again Doug states that there were several front panel configurations. > PSU updates - Long linear PSU > Short linear PSU > Short Switching PSU (types A and B) And again Doug notes the difference in power supplies. >At some point in this evolution some marketroid decided to change the name >from 8/e to 8/f. The OEM version of this platform was called the 8/m and >included an optional limited function front panel (although all 8/M's I've >seen so far had the programmers panel but that's only about a dozen so who >can say) > >I happen to have an 8/e that is: > Short box > 6v LAMPs plus TTL front panel > Side mount PSU There's no doubt that there were many ways to mix and match the various components produced. I'm a bit uncertain why some folks try to apply zoology so incessantly to their computers, when in real life folks move parts between systems with wild abandon, but then again zoology has always bored me to tears. >My guess is that the evolution of the 8/E was driven by the introduction of >the 11/20 since these changes seem have occurred between 1970 and 1972. All >8/E's with date codes prior to 1970 appear to be the diode front panel >type, All 8/E's after 1972 appear to be either 8/F's or 8/Ms (until the 8/a >came out). Again, I think you're trying too hard to classify machines which were built from a hodgepodge of parts to fit each individual situation. Lots of 8/E's and 8/F's went into instruments, and generally the OEM could pick and choose the features they wanted. >That being said (and yes I've sent Doug mail on this but its not exactly >FAQ material unless you really want to restore them as I do) I'd appreciate >pictures for the cover on the long one since I can fabricate a cover then. On mine, it's just a big sheet metal panel, with tabes on the right that go into slots on the chassis and with tape-seal type latches on the left. No ventilation slots at all. There's a lip on every edge except for the rear. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> wrote: >>Megan, was that a "long" 8/e or a "short" 8/e you recovered in your haul? >>If it was a long one could you take a couple of pictures of the cover for >>me? >What do you mean by a "long" 8/e... I thought the long box was the >8/e and the short one (what Allison has) an 8/f. I know that folks here have traiditionally objected to outside FAQ's when instead the issue could be resolved by dozens of E-mails, but in this case Doug Jone's *PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options* answers the question of 8/E vs 8/F quite nicely: Subject: What is a PDP-8/E? Date of introduction: 1970 (during or before August). Date of withdrawal: 1978. Also known as: PDP-8/OEM Industrial-8 (with a red color scheme) LAB-8/E (with a green color scheme) Price: $6,500 Technology: SSI and MSI TTL logic were used on these boards, and the entire CPU fit on 3 boards. Nominally, these were DEC M-series flip Chip modules, but in a new large format, quad-high (10.5 inch), extended-length (9 inch, including card-edge connector, excluding handles). The terms used for board height and length are based on the original working assumption that all flip-chips were plugged horizontally into a vertially mounted card-edge connector. On the PDP-8/E, the cards were plugged vertically down into a horizontally mounted connector, so many users incorrectly refer to these boards as quad-wide double-high. Interconnection between boards was through a new bus, the OMNIBUS. This eliminated the need for a wire-wrapped backplane, since all slots in the bus were wired identically. A new line of peripheral interfaces was produced, most being single cards that could be plugged directly into the inside the main enclosure. These included a set of posibus adapters allowing use of older peripherals on the new machine. Interboard connectors were needed for some multiboard options, including the CPU and memory subsystems. These used standard 36-pin backplane connectors on the opposite side of the board from the backplane. Some boards, notably memory boards, had a total of 8 connector fingers, 4 for the omnibus and 4 for interboard connectors. The core memory cycle time was 1.2 or 1.4 microseconds, depending on whether a read-modify-write cycle was involved (a jumper would slow all cycles to 1.4 microseconds). A 4K core plane was packaged on a single quad-wide double-high board, with most of the drive electronics packed onto two adjacent boards. Soon after the machine was introduced, an 8K core plane was released in the same format. Reason for introduction: The cost of the PDP-8/I and PDP-8/L was dominated by the cost of the interconnect wiring, and this cost was high as a result of the use of small circuit boards. By packing a larger number of chips per board, similar function could be attained in a smaller volume because less interboard communication was required. The PDP-8/E exploited this to achieve a new low in cost while attaining a new high in performance. Reason for withdrawal: This machine was slowly displaced by the PDP-8/A as the market for large PDP-8 configurations declined in the face of pressure from 16 bit mini and microcomputers. Compatability: As with the PDP-8/I and PDP-8/L, there are no limits on the combination of IAC and rotate instructions. Unlike the early machines, basic Group 3 OPR operations for loading and storing the MQ register work even if there is no extended arithmetic element. Finally, a new instruction was added, BSW; this swaps the left and right bytes in AC, and is encoded as a Group 1 OPR instruction using the "double the shift count bit". An odd quirk of this machine is that the RAL RAR combination ands the AC with the op-code, and the RTR RTL combination does an effective address computation loading the high 5 bits of AC with the current page and the lower bits of AC with the address field of the instruction itself! The EAE has a new mode, mode B. Previous EAE designs were single-mode. Mode B supports a large set of 24 bit operations and a somewhat more rational set of shift operations than the standard EAE. All prior EAE designs would hang on the microcoded CLA NMI (clear/normalize) instruction applied to a nonzero AC. This instruction is redefined to be a mode changing instruction on the 8/E. Standard configuration: A CPU with 4K of memory, plus 110 baud current loop teletype interface. Both a rack-mount table-top versions were sold (both 9" high by 19" wide by 21" deep). The rack mount version was mounted on slides for easy maintenance. The OMNIBUS backplane was on the bottom, with boards inserted from the top. The PDP-8/OEM had a turn-key front panel, no core, 256 words of ROM and 256 words of RAM, and was priced at $2800 in lots of 100. The standard OMNIBUS backplane had 20 slots, with no fixed assignments, but the following conventional uses; certain board sets were jumpered together (shown with brackets) and therefore were required to be adjacent to each other: -- KC8E programmer's console (lights and switches) -- M8300 \_ KK8E CPU registers -- M8310 / KK8E CPU control -- -- -- M833 - Timing board (system clock) -- M865 - KL8E console terminal interface. -- -- -- -- space for more peripherals -- -- -- M849 - shield to isolate memory from CPU -- G104 \ -- H220 > MM8E 4K memory -- G227 / -- -- -- space for more memory -- -- M8320 - KK8E Bus terminator Most of the early boards with 3 digit numbers were defective in one way or another, and the corrected boards added a trailing zero. Thus, the M833 was generally replaced with an M8330, and the M865 was replaced with the M8650. Expandability: The following are among the OMNIBUS boards that could be added internally: -- M8650 - KL8E RS232 or current loop serial interface. -- M8340 \_ Extended arithmetic element. -- M8341 / (must be attached in two slots between CPU and M833. -- M8350 - KA8E posibus interface (excluding DMA transfers). -- M8360 - KD8E data break interface (one per DMA device). -- M837 - KM8E memory extension control (needed for over 4K). -- M840 - PC8E high speed paper tape reader-punch interface. -- M842 - XY8E X/Y plotter control. -- M843 - CR8E card reader interface. There were many other internal options. There was room in the basic box for another 20 slot backplane; taking into account the 2 slots occupied by the M935 bridge between the two backplanes, this allowed 38 slots, and a second box could be added to accomodate another 38 slot backplane, bridged to the first box by a pair of BC08H OMNIBUS extension cables. Given a M837 memory extension control, additional memory could be added in increments of 4K by adding G104, H220, G227 triplets. The suggested arrangement of boards on the OMNIBUS always maintained the M849 shield between memory other options. The one exception was that the M8350 KA8E and M8360 KD8E external posibus interfaces were typically placed at the end of the OMNIBUS right before the terminator. The following options were introduced later, and there were many options offered by third party suppliers. -- G111 \ -- H212 > MM8EJ 8K memory -- G233 / -- M8357 -- RX8E interface to RX01/02 8" diskette drives. -- M7104 \ -- M7105 > RK8E RK05 Disk Interface -- M7106 / -- M8321 \ -- M8322 \ TM8E Magtape control for 9 track tape. -- M8323 / -- M8327 / Survival: It is still fairly common to find PDP-8/E systems on the surplus market, recently removed from service and in working condition or very close to it. A modest number are still in service doing their orignal jobs, and there is still a limited amount of commercial support from both DEC and third-party vendors. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8/F? Date of introduction: 1972. Date of withdrawal: 1978. Technology: an OMNIBUS machine, as with the PDP-8/E. First use of a switching power supply in the PDP-8 family. Reason for introduction: The PDP-8/E had a large enough box and a large enough power supply to accomodate a large configuration. By shortening the box and putting in a small switching power supply, a lower cost OMNIBUS machine was possible. Reason for withdrawal: The PDP-8/A 800 displaced this machine, providing similar expansion capability at a lower cost. Compatability: The PDP-8/F used the PDP-8/E CPU and peripherals. Standard configuration: Identical to the PDP-8/E, except that the KC8E front anel was replaced with a KC8M front panel that had LEDs instead of incandescent lights; this front panel could also be installed on PDP-8/E systems, but the PDP-8/E front panel could not be used on a PDP-8/F because of the lack of a +8 supply for the lights. The original PDP-8/F box had a defective power supply, but a revised (slightly larger) box corrected this problem. With the dintroduction of the M8330, DEC began to require that this board be placed adjacent to the KC8x front panel, although many OMNIBUS PDP-8 systems continued to be configured (by users) with the M8330 elsewhere on the bus. As a result, the suggested order of boards on the omnibus began with: -- KC8E programmer's console (lights and switches) -- M8330 - Timing board (system clock) -- M8340 \_ optional EAE board 1 -- M8341 / optional EAE board 2 -- M8310 \_ KK8E CPU control -- M8300 / KK8E CPU registers -- M837 - Extended Memory & Time Share control Expandability: This machine could be expanded using all PDP-8/E OMNIBUS peripherals, including the external expansion chassis. The relatively small internal power supply and the lack of room for a 20 slot bus expander inside the first box were the only limitations. There were minor compatability problems with some options, for example, the power-fail auto-restart card, as originally sold, was incompatable with the PDP-8/F power supply. Survival: As with the PDP-8/E, these machines are moderately common on the surplus market, and frequently in working condition. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by allisonp＠world.std.com

In late 1979 NEC sampled the 765, WD had also been building the 1793. <Sorry, I should have said that it was not readily achievable for RADIO <SHACK, not that it wasn't possible. It took RS a few more years before <they were ready to have MFM in one of their consumer level machines. No one thought it was needed. <RS's early FM had some data separation problems; I assume that that was <due to trying to keep the cost too low? they tried to cheap out and use the 1771s internal data seperation which even WD said was stupid! It was far to sensitive to bit jitter and the SA400 had really bad jitter! I used to have the test fixture and the disks to exercize them and getting an eyeball pattern on some was damm hard. It took a few oneshots and a FF package to get good data seperation. The other problem is the ribbon cable would pickup (and radiate RFI) noise like mad. If one wasn't careful there would be a ton of common mode noise on the cable too. Allison

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by mbg＠world.std.com

Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> wrote: >Megan, was that a "long" 8/e or a "short" 8/e you recovered in your haul? >If it was a long one could you take a couple of pictures of the cover for >me? What do you mean by a "long" 8/e... I thought the long box was the 8/e and the short one (what Allison has) an 8/f. I seem to remember the cover of mine has vent holes... sure, I'll take pictures of it, inside and out... maybe tomorrow. After Allison and I return from yet another trip to collect hardware... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The RCA TV set design that RS used for a monitor for the model 1 was NOT <really adequate for 80x24 display. (YES, I've done it.) It could but the opto isolator used to keep the hot chassis and the video seperate wasn't up to the task. Bypassed and of course using an isolation transformer it was much crisper even at 80 cols. <Double density was NOT readily achievable in 1978. And the poor quality My dog, don't tell DEC that or intel. <> was SLOW. The Z-80-card in the Apple was significantly (and noticeably) <> faster. The two machines otherwise occupied about the same desk space, a Than the TRS80, every thing was faster. Next to my S100 CPM crate with a real 4mhz z80 and no wait state memory they were both slow. <> aside from the stupid, Stupid, STUPID choice to leave the Tandy machine' <> display at 16 lines of 64 characters (about half of what was on a 24x80, As it works 64wide was more useful for word processing than 32 or 40. Allison

27 years

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NEC APC III

by roblwill＠usaor.net

-----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 1:51 PM Subject: Re: NEC APC III >With a few exceptions (and I doubt that the APC III would be one of the >exceptions), the 720K 3.5" can simply be cabled to replace the 720K 5.25". >The original design of it was intended to permit that. > Probably not. > >But that doesn't solve your need for a boot disk. In an earlier message, >you mentioned that your current boot disk is "Stoned". If so, a bit of >work with a sector editor might fix it. > Yeah - it's got the "Stoned" virus on it ( I think >Try to resurrect the 2.11 boot disk that you have. It's the HD - I can't access it - it starts to boot, says "MS-DOS 2.11", then comes up with an error (can't remember what, and the computer is at my school), and locks. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> >MS-DOS 2.11 was the version that MICROS~1 provided for companies that >needed/wanted to customize for special hardware, such as 720K drives. >PC-DOS didn't support 720K until 3.20. >Previously (MS-DOS 2.00), sometimes only MODE.COM, and sometimes >FORMAT.COM, varied from one brand of machine to another. >But in 2.11, IO.SYS might be significantly altered. > >

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see imbedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 7:18 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Careful, now! He would have played hell trying to interleave memory >> accesses between an 8080 and the video refresh process, since its various >> cycle types were so different. It would have been worse YET with a Z-80! > >It was done though. The 6845 you generally talk to it's local ram through >it not around it. The H19 terminal did the latter. It was, indeed, but not when the Apple was designed, since the 6845 and 6545 didn't yet exist. >> The 6502 also allowed him to proceed with his own DOS and his OWN version of >> BASIC, without which he mightn't have gotten the strangle-hold on the >> personal-computers-in-business market. It's pretty hard to criticize his >> choices, however little I liked the result from the standpoint of seeing it >> as a tool, but his (and his partner's) decisions were definitely vindicated >> in the marketplace. > >It proved software was more important than hardware. The best cpu with no >software was still nothing. The z80 was maybe the best at the moment but >the 6502 was as versitile and plenty fast enough to make up for it's >limitations. There were many people who disagreed with that performance comparison. The two processors (I used them both extensively) were different enough that comparison and contrast was not easy. The Z-80 had many registers and a rich instruction set of which much was awkward and difficult to use. The 6502 had fewer registers and fewer instructions but they were amplified by addressing modes not readily available to the Z-80 user, particularly if his code was for CP/M which sort-of required you stick to the 8080-compatible instruction subset. The fastest 6502 available in 1980 was a 4 MHz processor which stroked memory for 125 ns almost every cycle in its typical application. The Z-80 had just that year become available in a "B" version (6 MHz) which stroked memory for slightly less than 3 clock ticks on a memory cycle and barely 1 (166 ns) on an unmodified M1 cycle. Having said that, and given (1) that the two processors executed code at about the same rate for the same memory cycle length (hard to prove or disprove) and (2) memory cost was more of an issue than system performance, hence the memory cost was used to set the rate at which the CPU operated, I'd say there's really no basis for comparing the actual performance of the two processors. >Likewise the trs 80 would prove lowercase and some more speed were very >desireable (based on the two most common mods!). The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than the 16x64, it could have solidly supported double-density FD's (in the model 3) and it could have operated at about 4MHz rather than the 2.-something it used, and it could have switched in and out the ROM so it could run CP/M but for the greed of Tandy Corp. It would have cost them an additional $5 and change to put those features in their model 3, but they thought "well, we're going to sell a million of these . . . " and decided they preferred having the dollars. Had they gone the other way, they probably would have had the "personal computer" market all to themselves. They had a huge distribution network, a huge sales force, a huge service network, unlike any other microcomputer manufacturer of the time. Within a year, Apple owned the personal computer market, particularly with respect to businesses, even though Radio Shack had better packaging by the time the Model 3 came out. That was also about the time it became common to see the 80x24 displays, the 8"disk drives, the nearly 4MHz Z-80 running CP/M, the extra 16K memory, etc. on the Apple II. If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. >Allison > >

27 years

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PDP-8/E PSU Debugging (was Q-bus pinout)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<On another tack, the chassis I got did not come with any covers. I don't <know if this is "standard" or not. (I know the PDP-5 isn't designed to be They are missing then. The 8E had a cover as did the 8l and I think the 8I. <and so that has left me curious. I'm probably going to build a display rac <for it anyway with clear sides so that folks can "see" the innards without <risking getting fingers in them. Compare to a real top for vent slots as needed. <P.S. I'd like to thank Allison for relating the story of bringing up her <8/F since it inspired me to move forward on this project (code named <"FrankenEight" as it is a PDP-8 built out of parts exhumed from dead 8's o <other mysterious sources ...) My pleasure. I'm still working on mine to get it talking over the serial (I havent tried and I have to make a RS232 cable). Still they are a really fun machine and gobs of fun to hack new interfaces only. Omnibus 8s were the most hacked of the series as the bus made them easy to interface to and DEC make no secret of what is needed to do it. add to that with 8kw or more of core it's a machine that can do serious work if one chooses. Allison

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: >>I suspect when you say "MFM" you mean "all the soft-sectored data storage >>schemes descended from the original IBM 3740 (FM) standard", in which case >>you're right. >So, does that mean that those quarter-track schemes used for copy >protection on the Apple II could also be implemented on a PC or >Macintosh disk? The reason why I ask is because I've never heard of such a >practice. I think my statement is entirely unrelated to your question. The Apple ][ DOS 3.2/3.3 sector format, while it follows conceptually the same ideas as the IBM 3740 standard in that they are both ways of recording blocks of data on floppy disks and both encode the track and sector number in the header, is not by any stretch compatible with it. On an Apple Disk ][, you have complete control over the stepper phases, so quarter- and half-tracking is possible. (You can also blow out the Apple's power supply by switching the phases on and off at a certain "bad" rate, too!) The 34-pin Shugart SA400-style interface used for floppies in PC's doesn't allow half- or quarter-track stepping, though you could imagine trying to read or write something while rapidly stepping in/stepping out. If you want more information, I highly recommend that you read the Shugart SA400 interface documents, or the interface documents of a drive with a similar interface (i.e. the TEAC datasheets, which are also very complete.) I don't know of any documentation of the Macintosh 3.5" floppy interface. If someone could point me towards the relevant documents (or even the part numbers they claim to describe) I'd be quite happy! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I grew up on the Z80, and for a time I thought that the 6502 was a Same here. <horrible little chip. But then I got to use a 6502 in the BBC micro and I I didn't have that opinion. It took a bit of getting used to having 256 registers that happen to be in the base memory page though. ;) totally revised my opinion of it. The 6502 instruction set was simple and <fairly clean. For high-level languages it was a fine processor (BBC basic <on a 2MHz 6502 was faster than similar BASICs on 4MHz Z80 machines). In the speed race they were close enough that how an app was structured and written had a greater effect. <No. Never forget the 3 magic letters 'IBM'. That's why the PC was <succesful. Technically there were plenty of better machines around at the <time, but they didn't have the appeal of coming from a company that <_every_ computer centre and DP manager had heard of. That is a fact! IBM legitimized the desktop machine even if it was inferior design. Allison

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

::Basically, yes. The track and sector are stored in the sector header of ::each sector, among other data. >In fact, most floppy disk systems work that way. Commodore GCR does that. >So does MFM, doesn't it? I suspect when you say "MFM" you mean "all the soft-sectored data storage schemes descended from the original IBM 3740 (FM) standard", in which case you're right. There are a few oddball hard-sectored drives that don't have any header at all on the data in each sector - hardware counters in the drive controller keep track of this stuff. Of course, once your head stepper starts stalling or your index sensor gets dusty, all sorts of nasty things happen with this scheme. And, even more rare, are some embedded-servo floppy disk systems where the location on disk is encoded in special formatting that cannot, in any reasonable way, be called a "sector header". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

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[OT] <10 yo DG Aviion

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Try the Newsgroup: comp.sys.m88k Good Luck! (You're gonna need it!) On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:50:45 -0500 "David Williams" <dlw(a)trailingedge.com> writes: >I know this system isn't 10 years old yet, but a company I use to >work for gave me a 88000 based Data General Aviion. I believe it is >an AV 4625 model if I'm reading the back right. DG's site only >talks about P-II and P-III based Aviions with nothing about the >earlier 88000 based ones. Anyone have any web site pointers or >info on these for me? I'm currently hitting each of the main search >sites without much luck. > >Thanks. > > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw(a)trailingedge.com >http://www.trailingedge.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years

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[RANTISH] Programming Stupidity

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

> From: Daniel A. Seagraves <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: [RANTISH] Programming Stupidity > Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 10:15 > > > [Large progressive rant here, nevermind me...] First of several <snips> in this msg... >You guys think BASIC is bad? How about BASIC that automagically > writes bad Windows code for you! Sounds about right. Never tried VB myself, (well the beer, yes, that's ok) I have an assistant who is somewhat interested in using VB for righting apps. I had occasion to write a little PLC emulation for a dos box to replace a failing (and not Y2K compliant to boot) PLC that rings the bells at the school to announce change of class, lunch etc. It also controls the sprinkler system. Anyway, a couple days hacking around in Turbo Pascal 6 produced a simple little program that controls a few external devices on a time schedule via a $2 interface connected to the printer port. Runs on XT's and up, around 23k for the .exe file. Works fine. Just a text file with the schedule info in it. Too easy. My assistant thought that was ok, so he thought he'd try it in VB just as an exercise. At last count, it was something like a 650k exe file, needed at least 4 mb of ram, and he still hadn't found a way to get control over the bits in the printer port to let it actually do something useful!! He's still nibbling away at it, he's perssistant, so he'll probably make it go. Eventually. Been 6 weeks now though..... > This thing couldn't make optimized code > if Billy-boy's monopoly depended on it. Pity it doesn't depend on it. > On top of that, the bad code that it DOES generate doesn't even work. > We build the .EXE on a Win98 machine - Now it refusues to run on 95. Micro$oft producing non backward compatible software? Nah, couldn't believe that.... yeah, right. > Microsoft's wizard for making install programs for your software sucks worse. > It replaced some DLLs it wasn't supposed to have on our (one and only, thank > Goddess!) NT server, and NT crashed like you wouldn't believe. Oh yes I would. I just drop kicked the last of our NT servers. 2 years of tinkering and updateing and god knows what else and it STILL kept screwing up a database. It's now my workstation. Running 98. The family resemblance is still a pain at times, but at least it only gives ME trouble, not half the darn school.. > I'm gonna have a hell of a time putting THAT back together.. Doesn't sound like a fun weekend project. Best of luck. You'll need it. . On top of this, the > installer doesn't run under 95, either. It starts just fine, makes a pathetic > attempt at copying files, then blows up horrbibly with Error 0x16E. Wasn't > Billy saying they were supposed to make our error messages make SENSE? To Micro$oft Tech staff when you ring them at $25 a problem maybe. But I wouldn't even count on that. > an error message like that, a dialog box reading "YOU LOSE!" would be better. You've already lost if you have to run Windoze whatever. I'd switch to something more stable in a minute, but the sad part is that Windoze is everywhere, so we have to teach our students to use it and the apps that run on it, because that's what they will likely find in the real world.. > Another quote from my boss: > "In programming, it doesn't matter how well it runs or does it's job. The > bottom line is, 'can we sell it to someone?'" What planet is this guy from? Originally? Marketdroidia? He sounds like one of those funny creatures. > Is it just me, or is that just plain wrong? Please say it's not only me... It isn't only you. I think you have a couple of million mates globally. Minimum. Trust me on this. > I hate being alone, 'cause that means I'm right and everyone else is wrong. You are in absolutely no danger of that. Micro$loth bashing may become the all time greatest user participation sport of the 21st century. > Sorry for that, I just needed to vent. Do with it what you will... Just confirms much I already believed..... Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

27 years

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Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner <spc(a)armigeron.com> wrote: > Oh. You're one of *those* ... okay. > > -spc (Hate Perl ... okay, so I'm a bit of a language snob 8-) I am presently paying for my classic computer hobby by crafting perl for 50+ hours per week at consultant's wages. I *love* perl! -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

27 years

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What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by fpp＠concentric.net

> Yes, that's true, but, the 4MHz+ (4.9152 MHz, actually) Z-80B with 64K of > RAM, a 24x80-charcter display, double-density diskette interface that > actually worked, built-in capability to install a hard disk, AND the ability > to run CP/M right out of the box, in 1978-1979 e.g. at the fall '78 COMDEX, > which was BEFORE there were "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple" Would be a good argument but; Comdex did not exist 1978. There was The West Coast Computer Faire (San Jose, CA), or NCC show (Anaheim, CA I believe in 79) mostly heavy iron.

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies)

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're right in that it would be silly to bang the head assembly into anything. I didn't say they did that, though it would work for a while, maybe. It's clear to me that Apple drives do things differently from other drives just from listening to them when the machine starts up. I'd never pretend to "know" what they do. In fact I'd be hesitant to admit it if I did know. Your observation that there were alignment problems with Apple disk drives sounds familiar too. Could it be that they actually did bang the head into the stops? My contempt for Apple begins and ends with their total disregard for the value of your data. If you wrote to their floppies, especially if your computer was in the "front room" of a business, exposed to whatever dust was carried in by customers and wind, etc, from the parking lot, (I had a client years ago, whose mail-order business was operated with the "help" of an Apple-II with two controllers and three drives in just such a location.) you'd frequently observe the computer locking up because it had come to a bit it couldn't read. The reason was probably contamination of media or drives, but the only recovery was the reset. Your data, meanwhile, and perhaps your customer calling long distance, were gone by now. They designed the MAC with no memory parity assuming that you'd not mind if your data was corrupted without your knowledge, and though the disk handling was a bit more mature than the Apple-II "I give up . . . and die" it wasn't much better. I've never taken note of the 8" drives' sensor for track 43. I always believed that since they had provided a "low-current" control on the interface cable, it was not necessary. I suppose I'd have taken note if one had failed along the way. Of the many dozens of 8" drives I've owned, I never had one fail. I used several of these for 7 or 8 years, moving them about and just generally abusing them, yet they seemed to keep going. I only occasionally aligned a drive for someone else, or as part of a checkout of an "experienced" set of drives we were buying. The only drives which ever gave a noticeable amount of trouble were the Persci. They were "hangar queens" of the first order. I had a couple of those for a time because I had to verify they worked properly with our controllers. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 8:50 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 5 1/4 floppies) >> >> Actually there are two points. One is track 000 and the other is the >> innermost (for sa400 35-40 tracks later). Only track 000 was sensored >> save for apple didn't use that either. Apple cut the interface to the > >A very silly nitpick: > >I have an 8" drive here with 2 slotted optoswitches on the head carriage. >One is on track 0. The other is on track43 and all later tracks. The >reason for the latter one? It automatically does the write current switch >at track 43. > >> minimim number of wires and signals possible and made up the difference >> with software, rather clever in my mind. > >And rather silly in my mind. Continually banging the head into the end >stop does cause the alignment to drift. I've had plenty of Disk IIs and >1541s (another drive that seems to bang the head rather too much) in for >repair. Often alignment is the problem. > >> >> Allison >> >> >> > >-tony >

27 years

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OT: Microsoft, again!

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

>Subject: Microsoft, again! >Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:23:12 -0400 > >Bucks For Bugs >By Randy Whitted, TechWeb contributor > >Microsoft is setting a dangerous precedent by announcing the next Windows 98 >"service pack" -- read: bug fix release -- will cost users $89. > >What we're seeing here is the first instance in the software industry of a >company charging a significant sum to, hopefully, improve a product that >didn't work right in the first place. > >As much as I'd like to deny it, what Apple, and even Linux developers, do to >innovate in the software industry pales in comparison to the big Kahuna. >Microsoft sets the status quo, which is why watching its moves, even if >we're not customers, is wise. > >While I'm not privy to Microsoft's motives, I can guess the company's >thinking goes something like this: "We spent a good deal of time and money >fixing these problems, and we want to be compensated for our efforts." PC >users should then say, "We spent a good deal of money on your product, which >didn't work as you said it would, and we'd like the thing to work right at >your expense." > >But here's the catch: Did Microsoft promise to deliver a version of Win 98 >that would be bug-free? Do any software developers say they release bug-free >software? Of course not. They know, as do consumers, that software will >always have problems, glitches, performance issues, and some bugs. No one is >immune from releasing buggy software. It's a fact of life. > >However, how a company deals with its bugs is the true test of a winner or >loser. And quite simply, charging users for a bug fix is a dumb move. > >Imagine if Apple tried to pull this off. There would be a mass defection, >public scrutiny, a stock price plunge, and enough ridicule to ruin >everything the iMac accomplished. > >That is why Apple, shortly after confirming bugs in Mac OS 8.5.1, released a >bug-fix patch that could be download for free. Those fixes were subsequently >incorporated into later shipments of 8.5 -- it's called slip-streaming. > >It should be noted, however, that Apple's forthcoming Veronica -- Mac OS 8.6 >-- is not a bug fix. Sure, it includes several bug fixes, some new drivers, >and enhancements, but it is an updated version of the operating system that >also offers new features and functions. Because it is an upgrade, Apple is >not charging full price. Mac OS 8.6 is expected to be free for recent 8.5 >buyers, cost about $20 for a CD, and free when downloaded from the Internet. > >So, perhaps Microsoft, in its clumsy way, is just putting the wrong spin on >this whole service-pack issue. My advice is the company should call it >"Windows April 98," ship it in August, and tout the release as having >several performance enhancements instead of just bug fixes. At least the >consumer could imagine for their $89, Windows was working better than >before, instead of simply working the way it should have been in the first >place. > >The implications of letting Microsoft get away with this could be >significant for the sectors of the software industry in which there is still >competition. To me, Microsoft is saying it still doesn't believe there is >any alternative to Windows, and as the dominant OS provider, whatever its >says goes. Consumers, the ball is in your court. Linux is free. The Mac OS >is polished and ready. Make your move. > >Randy Whitted is a copy writer/technical adviser at Studeo, a marketing and >communications agency in Provo, Utah. The opinions expressed here are >strictly his own. > >http://www.techweb.com/ <http://www.techweb.com/> > > http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/blank.gif ><http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/blank.gif> >http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/blank.gif ><http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/blank.gif> >http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/blank.gif ><http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/blank.gif> > http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/scoop-bottom.gif ><http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/scoop-bottom.gif> > http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/arrowright-gray.gif ><http://img.cmpnet.com/tw/newsletters/arrowright-gray.gif> ><http://www.techweb.com?ls=twb_ibd> http://www.techweb.com >

27 years

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Thoughts on Taking Inventory

by kees.stravers＠iae.nl

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:56:42 -0500, mbg(a)world.std.com (Megan) said: >>I'd also have a "shadow" page that showed the outlines of the "standard" >>bus types so that boards could be identified by their outline. > >Kind of line the charts 'plane-spotters' used... > >I'll go that one better... I've been thinking of taking pictures (now >that I have a digital camera) of one each of all the qbus boards I >have in my stock, so that people can see what they look like. [This reaction is a bit late, I'm slowly catching up on my classiccmp reading] I think this is an excellent idea! It can even be done without a digital camera for the dual- and quad wide boards, just lay them face-down on a flatbed scanner! This is a lot quicker and the resulting images look just fine. I did this for the images of the RQDX boards on my RQDX page at <http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/rqdx/> You can see that the boards look great in the images. (Click on the small images to see larger ones.) If you have the time to scan the boards, but not the room on your web page to post them, I can store them on VAXarchive. In fact, if everyone that has a few DEC boards lying about, would scan them and email me the resulting JPG's, I would have a 'visual field guide' online in no time :) Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers(a)iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ I'm Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - Visit VAXarchive! http://www.vaxarchive.org/ (primary) http://www.sevensages.org/vax/ (mirror) http://www.coyote.org/mirrors/vaxarchive/ (mirror)

27 years

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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4floppies)

by edick＠idcomm.com

In the late '70's, I think the microcomputer market was highly simplistic with respect to what it is today. Take a look at the comments I've imbedded in your text below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 12:58 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4floppies) >On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The TRS-80 could have been put out with (1) an 80x24 display rather than the <snip> >> If Tandy had gone with the better design, which was on the >> table, there probably would be no IBM PC today. > >This is a highly simplistic view of the early home computer market. He >with the biggest dick didn't always go home with the babe. There was much >more to the computer to entice someone to buy it than just the speed of >the microprocessor. Available software and overall marketing effort >played the bigger role, and Apple exploited this by advertising the figure >of "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple". Yes, that's true, but, the 4MHz+ (4.9152 MHz, actually) Z-80B with 64K of RAM, a 24x80-charcter display, double-density diskette interface that actually worked, built-in capability to install a hard disk, AND the ability to run CP/M right out of the box, in 1978-1979 e.g. at the fall '78 COMDEX, which was BEFORE there were "Over 10,000 programs written for the Apple" would have been hard to beat . . . particularly under the aegis of a nation-wide company with these facilities under one management already in place. Remember APPLE had to rely on small-time stores like Computerland for distribution, and their service, mostly indirect, was slow and costly. The things which seemed to make the Apple fit the business model the best (before Visicalc) was the 24x80-character display and the 8" diskette drives sitting next to it. With the aid of the Videx video display adapter and the Sorrento Valley Associates' 8" disk drive interface, the machine suddenly began to look like what people had come to expect when they learned about computers and how to use them. It's true that "He with the biggest dick didn't always go home with the babe" but you mustn't forget that in this case, the dick was overtly measured and advertised. Whereas the above described TRS80-III wouldn't have been the fastest on the market, it had the packaging and the ability to turn into much more computer for much less money than the Apple, though with the gradually and later not so gradual increase in Apple's market share, they were able to become somewhat more competitive in spite of the high cost of distribution and service. The way it turned out, Tandy Corp ended up with precisely the smallest, didn't it? A barely-over 2MHz processor which stroked memory more at about 1.5 microsecond per memory cycle??? It was obvious to everyone who used the Radio Shack model III that their computer was SLOW. The Z-80-card in the Apple was significantly (and noticeably) faster. The two machines otherwise occupied about the same desk space, and, aside from the stupid, Stupid, STUPID choice to leave the Tandy machine's display at 16 lines of 64 characters (about half of what was on a 24x80, and about what was on an Apple with the standard display), they were quite similar. Of course the Radio Shack machine was SLOW . . . >As far as a comparison between the 6502 and Z80, its been argued over time >and again, but the consensus is generally that each processor could >perform some task faster than the other, and overall, applications running >on both seemed to perform equally. Of course, when you involved >subsystems like disk access, the Apple tended to have an advantage over >some Z-80 systems (and even other 6502 systems). I don't know that the assertions you make here are correct, but I don't believe they're completely off-base. It's important to remember that if one computer is not at least ~2x the speed of another, most tasks will seemingly execute in more or less the same time as observed by a user at the console. If two are set side-by-side and compared, the difference in performance seldom amounts to the ratio of the clock speed or the ratio of the memory access time. Often the result is totally counterintuitive. (Meaning something's been overlooked!) Most of the time, it makes little difference. Whether it takes four hours or six to handle the weekly payroll doesn't matter very much if it's run at night. >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

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