- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by mbg＠world.std.com

>It's the bench-top console for the M7341 microprocessor. The >KC341-A was the rack-mount console. Thanks... >One would presume, then, that you've got a couple M7341's in your >archives, too :-). I believe I had one board at some point, but I haven't see it yet... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

1
0
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Signal detection

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<How is this AGC level derived, and how is it compared to the signal? It is the rectifed output of the dectector circuit and and it's not compared. Allison

27 years

1
0
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Signal detection

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Could anyone tell me how a radio detects signals vs. static? There is a <little gauge on my radio that moves depending on the amount of noise vs. <signal. I would guess that the digitally tuned radios that skip over the <frequencies that are pure static work in the same way. What is this way? Static is inchoherent radio signals (random). generally they are far weaker so the selection is done on signal strength or in the case of FM modulated systems reduction in received noise. Actually it's fairly simple. Allison

27 years

1
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8" drive on a pc controller

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Please forgive my interloping, here, but my SHUGART and Siemens SD 8" drive <are spec'd for 6 ms step rate, and the double-headed types for 3 ms. It's <really best (mechanically) to step these babies as fast as they will go, an <it's quieter too. Be specific on the model as the sa800s and 850s would never do 3ms! Though the later ones did step faster. The problem with 8" drives are that there were some that were doing their best at 10-12mS and a few like CDCs 3ms was the norm. Most fell in around 6mS. ALSO, the PC controller uses the 765 chip (or it's core) generally and that chip can truncate the first step pulse by 1/2mS (8/5"). So the fastest recommended step rate programming (srthut in SPECIFY command) is 4mS. I believe it was never fixed. Allison

27 years

1
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AMPRO LITTLE BOARD, etc.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I bought mine new as a kit in '83, as part of the first production run. <They didn't have HDD support then, and since I made and sold an adapter <daughterboard to interface to Z-80 processor sockets, one of several, I wa <not concerned about that. The board always worked reliably and, aside fro <the occasional need to read a standard diskette, the system was pretty <complete. Mine is only slightly later, has the 5380 scsi chip. <Well, the drive attached to my two boards, i.e. the hard drive, is an ST-50 <that was lying about some fifteen years ago when I happened to need a drive The sequence of disks over the years for the HDD side: xybec and st506 bought new in 82(late). Still have both. Adaptec, and Quantum D540 (31mb) much faster. the adaptec died and the xybec was in with a st251 for a while then the fujitsu 3.5" scsi drive. <>supported. The host interface was very similar in concept and nearly <>in execution as IDE. < < <The history included in the IDE spec clearly indicates that it was patterne <after the 1003-WAH board (of PC/AT fame), which is the PC-bound eqivalent o <the 1002. It uses the same IC's, hence the same command structure and bit Here we go again... I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS IDE. I said it was similar in respect that it was a bus level interface for a controller and predates IDE. I do know that the wd1003 was what the IDE base design was patterned after. <definitions. I'm inclined to try hooking an IDE drive up in place of the <1000-05 board and ST-506 drive just to see what it does. I'd imagine they <emulated it faithfully.

27 years

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OT: Welfare state morality

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: <>Simple dont use word, it's virus prone. < <What if someone needs it for their job? < <--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) Well as someone that's running 35 clients and 3servers all microspooge I can say it's really keep me busy and a virus is really a major headache. As a result for me it is the job. I'd rather be running VMS. Allison

27 years

1
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Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward?

by edick＠idcomm.com

I thought it would (mmaybe) be helpful to point out that WD made several similarly designated controllers during the period when the 8"-drive-compatible models were available. The WD 1000 series members which used the 8X300 microcontroller used a different command set or register organization, which was, IIRC inverted in some sense, i.e. either the register order was the inverse of the one on the LSI version, or the commands were the complement of the ones the LSI version (designated 1000-05, 1000-08, the latter of which I doubt was ever shipped) As several folks have indicated some of these controllers had both the 50-pin connector for the 8-inch drives' data cable, and the 34-pin connector for the 5-1/4" drives' data cable. What's not entirely obvious with the LSI controllers' jumper layout, characterized in the documents only as a means for disconnecting biasing voltages from the PLL circuitry during calibration, is that if one removes the shorting plugs from some models, again depending on the version, a jumper then will suffice to bypass the PLL circuitry, thereby allowing the use of the clock already available from those drives which provide it on the data connector. If this clock is fed to the circuitry downstream from the PLL, the controller needs no further modification aside from changing the 4x crystal, shipped at 20 MHz, to one at 17.36 MHz, which is 4x the standard rate for 8" drives. That means that an oscillator and a single jumper is all that's necessary to convert some of these boards from 5.25" to 8". Persons wishing to use 8" HDD's should BE CAREFUL with the negative bias supply. Just like some 8" FDD's, some of these drives have on-board regulators for the negative supply, hence will only work if they're fed a nominally -12 V dc source (actually anything greater than -8 vdc and not damaging to the circuitry will be ok) since there's an on-board regulator. A bypass jumper is usually provided, as some drives will be used with supplies designed for drives without the on-board regulator, therefore demanding -5V dc. If this bias supply is not correct, either due to the lack of compatible supply and regulator, or because -5 is being fed to the regulator, the drive will not work. If -12 is fed to the drives which have no regulator, the head interface circuits and probably the data conditioning circuits will be damaged. BE CAREFUL! I didn't learn about this over a beer after work, or by reading an article in a magazine . . . 'nuff said??? Dick Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? >On 16 Apr 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that >> [...] >> > If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would >> > like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" >> > harddrives. >> >> Regrettably I no longer have the manual or schematics for these, so a lot >> of this is from memory. >> >> The WD1000-5 was the WD1000 repackaged on an 8" * 5.75" board, to match the >> form factor of 5.25" drives. >> >> The original WD1000 and WD1001 had both 34 and 50 pin drive control >> connectors. I'm guessing that the WD1000-5 left the 50 pin connector out. >> However, you only need to scramble the pins appropriately, as the actual >> signals are the same. All odd pins are ground on both connectors; the others >> should map thusly: >> >> 34-pin 50-pin signal >> >> 2 2 *RWC reduced write current >> 4 4 *HS2 head select 2 >> 6 40 *WG write gate >> 8 8 *SC seek complete >> 10 42 *TK0 track 0 >> 12 44 *WF write fault >> 14 14 *HS0 head select 0 >> 16 NC >> 18 18 *HS1 head select 1 >> 20 20 *IDX index >> 22 22 *RDY ready >> 24 36 *STEP >> 26 26 *DS1 drive select 1 >> 28 28 *DS2 drive select 2 >> 30 30 *DS3 drive select 3 >> 32 32 *DS4 drive select 4 >> 34 34 *DIR step direction (in when asserted) >> >> The radial data connectors are the same for both drive sizes. >> >> The bigger problem is that 8-inch drives used a data rate of 4.34 Mbps rather >> than 5 Mbps. I seem to recall that the WD1000 had a jumper setting for this. >> If they removed the 50-pin drive control connector, they probably also removed >> the jumper and supporting circuitry. >> >> > Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" >> > Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, >> > but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. >> >> No data here, but almost certainly not 110 VAC. Probably 24V AC and 5V DC. > >Sorry Eric, but the spin motor is identical to the ones used in the >Shugart SA80n series - 120 VAC 60Hz 1.6 Amp. The rest of the power >requirements come in through a 6-pin connector, also identical to the >Shugart, so I would assume +5 VDC, -5 VDC (maybe), and 24 VDC. Probably >to the same pinout as the Shugart. > >> You *might* be able to get a Q2040 to run at 5 Mbps, but I've never >> personally seen it done. > >I have a hazy recollection of running one on a latter day HDC to view data >contents, but the details elude me now. > - don > >

27 years

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

NOW YOU"VE DONE IT!!! I actually went down into the "pit" and found a relevant data book. In this case it's the 1981 Zilog Data Book. The portion of the first chapter, which deals with the CPU, has timing diagrams on pages 18-20, dealing with the opcode fetch (M1)cycle, memory cycles, and I/O cycles. The latter two types show both a read and a write cycle. From the timing diagrams and text it is clear that unless one is concerned with the minutiae of how the external resources are accessed, the only things which need to be accounted for in evaluating the execution time of a series of instructions is how many T-states or clock ticks are required for each cycle type. Without wait states, an M1 CYCLE is ALWAYS 4 clock ticks long, a memory read or write CYCLE is 3 clock ticks long, and an I/O read or write CYCLE is 4 clock ticks. It would be beneficial if we kept this discussion restricted to the two processors at hand, i.e. the Z80 and (if you like) the MOSTEK and NEC "equivalents" which at least claimed to exhibit the same timing characteristics, and the NMOS 6502's in their various speed grades as were available in 1980 more or less. There's no question that this doesn't include the Z8 or the Z180 or the Z280 or any other part, nor does it apply directly to the various other parts which later inherited the 'Z' or some of the genuine Z80 characteristics. There's no doubt the Zilog folks, clever as they were, figured out ways in which to improve their products in later generations. I thought I pretty well covered why it's not relevant how long the bird dips his beak into the memory, so long as you remain mindful of how often, maximally, it can do so. Your statement indicates an awareness of this, but both your statement and your asserted conclusions suggest you've confused the memory access cycle length for the memory cycle rate or frequency. For purposes of clarity I've postulated that there are two parts to every cycle. There are other ways of looking at this, but . . . There's the setup phase and the "active" (for want of a better term) phase. The Z80 active phase cannot be detected externally in the case of instructions which don't access external resources. On a 6502 the active phase is defined by the positive-going (high) portion of the Phase-2 clock. On the Z-80 an active phase can be detected only when it involves external resources. I'd really appreciate you referring me to a page in a data book current at the time which makes any suggestion at all that the Z80 requires any fewer than 3 t-states to execute a non-M1-memory cycle. Even in an LDIR, where there are NO opcode fetches at all once the process begins, each and every memory access takes a minimum of three clock ticks or "t-states." This is true whether the processor is clocked at its maximum or at a much slower rate. This tells us that executing an absolute jump takes the duration of the instruction fetch which means the opcode plus the two byte target address. The diagram clearly shows four normal t-states plus the requisite wait-state commonly inserted in M1 cycles, so, (a) we now have it straight from the horse's mouth that the cycle with the one wait state, as your Ampro Little Board undoubtedly allowed you to observe with your calibrated logic analyzer, the M1 cycle takes a total of 5 t-states in this, the customary implementation, and the two subsequent fetch cycles take three t-states each. So, the absolute jump takes minimally 4+3+3 clock ticks and, as typically implemented, 5+3+3 (=11) clock ticks, not 12 as I estimated, to fetch the entire instruction. The next cycle will ostensibly be an M1 cycle at the 16-bit address fetched as part of the absolute jump instruction. At the very familiar 4 MHz, this is 2.75 microseconds. On the 6502, an opcode fetch takes 1 clock tick. A fetch from memory takes 1 clock tick, and a write to memory takes 1 clock tick. Consequently an absolute jump takes three clock ticks. At 2 MHz, this is 1.5 microseconds. You're right, the 6502 takes two clock ticks to execute any of the "single-cycle" instructons. However, due to the designers' clever use of simple pipelining, it executes two of them in three clock ticks and three of them in four, as the execution of each wholly internal "single-cycle" operation is overlapped with the next opcode fetch, so if you want to argue, it takes only one, with the exception of the fact the first one takes two. Its opcode was fetched during the last cycle of the previous instruction, though, unless it was reached via jump, branch, call or interrupt. What this means is that when you have a succession of ALU operations, e.g, a sequence of shifts, the Z80 should win, right? . . . as it takes only five clock ticks each (with the requisite wait-state) to fetch and execute four successive left shifts, or 20 clock ticks which equals 5 microseconds. On the 6502, because of the pipelining, it takes 5 clock ticks, which, in the case of the 2 MHz processor, is 2.5 microseconds. Please take a look at the additional comments I've embedded in the quoted email below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 7:39 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing ><the relatively short memory access strobe, while I was talking about the ><frequency at which they occur, as defined in the spec. I agree completely > >Yes so? Often the z80 is moving 16bits, with 8bit wide memory it's going >to take several cycles. If it were a z280 that would be even more biased >as it uses fewer "ticks" per cycle and the bus is 16bits wide. Counting >ticks or whatever as I've repeatedly stated meaningless save for >discussions of how memory is used and not who is faster. > >An aside at this point, the z280 runs different cycle timing as @4mhz would >be the base z80 of the same speed and the z380 (in z80 native mode) beats >that as the cycles have been shortend again. This is irrelevant to the comparison between the processors in the title. ><personal. The fact remains, that the memory CYCLE is three clock ticks ><long, as defined in the spec (though I haven't looked at it in 15 years or > >It is not and Like I said the spec is infront of me as I type. Worst case >its 2. But that in itself is again meaningless. please, Please, PLEASE take another look. Remember it's the CYCLE length, not the access strobe width that's relevant to this discussion. ><so since I haven't yet unearthed my Zilog or Mostek data books) and if you ><look at the pictures you saw with your logic analyzer, you should have see ><two read pulses of whatever lenght they were, spaced at very nearly 750 ns ><each time you saw the execution of an absolute jump, or any other ><instruction which consists of an opcode followed by a 16-bit address. The ><same is true of writes. They take one memory cycle, which is three clock ><ticks long, for each byte, although the memory write strobe is a mite ><shorter than the read strobe, IIRC, which I might not, but . . . > >Your memory is faulty. and that 750ns bumber is still meaningless. they >only number for comparative purposes is the amount of time it takes to do >an absolute jump. For Z80 @4mhz that will be 2.5us. It will require >memory in the 250ns range to do it. I've frequently demonstrated, of late, that my formerly steel-trap-mind has moved significantly in the direction of the polyethylene colander. However, I did still remembered the details I pointed out yesterday, with the exception that I thought the minimal number of T-states in the M1 cycle was five rather than four. . . but I did remember on which pages the diagrams were printed. ><were inserted as they often were for M1 cycles. Nevertheless, commonly use ><instructions were MUCH faster on the 2 MHz 6502, than on the 4 MHz Z-80. > >A 2mhz 6502 executes a 1byte (say INX) instuction in 2 machine cycles and >that takes 1uS. Yes, but it executes two of them in three machine cycles, and three in four, etc. due to the pipelining which allows overlapped execution and opcode fetch. >A 4mhz INC B (any register) takes 4 z80 clocks at 4mhz... damm if that >doesn't happen to be 1uS! Where is the speed difference? Yes, but if you execute two of them, it takes 8, and if you execute three it takes 12. That's 3 microseconds. Now, a 2 MHz 6502 takes only 2 microseconds to increment a register twice. >According to my book a 6502 absolute jump takes 3-5 cycles and in the 5 >cycle case its 2.5 us. Not quite . . . the 5 tick jump is an indirect jump, opcode 0x6C. An absolute jump, opcode=0x4C takes only and exactly three clock ticks. ><probably measure three microseconds for those twelve clock ticks (T-states ><which is EXACTLY how long a 1 MHz 6502 takes to do that. Hence, I conclud > >Exactly my point. The 6502 is not faster, it only marches to a different drummer. Yes, but if you had carefully read the quoted statement from my previous email, you'd have noticed I referenced it to a 1 MHz processor, not a 2 MHz one as was used in the comparison. So you see, for the sake of this comparison, the drummer is beating twice as quickly. ><I've concluded that most code I've seen underutilizes the internal resource ><and overutilizes the external ones. Code like that favors processors with ><more time-efficient use of the external resources. Hence, my assertion that ><there's reason to believe the 6502 at 2 MHz could outrun the 4 MHz Z-80 in ><more or less typical code and in a more or less typical hardware > >No again. It can match the z80 and in some cases it's better or worse. > Well, I'd be very pleased to see a block of code written to accomplish any useful (or otherwise definable) task in less time on a 4 MHz Z-80 than it would take a 2 MHz 6502 to achieve the same end. I'm not saying I can write better code than you, nor am I even saying it can't be done. I've never seen it, though. It's virtually impossible to do this against a 1 MHz 6502, and you're allowing me to continue the comparison between a 4MHz Z-80A and a 2 MHz 6502A, right? The immediately following statement which you quoted >from my previous email states my view on this. I'd still be interested, if only as point of curiosity. > ><environment. Code written to make better than average utilization of the ><internals of a Z-80 might fare better against equally well-written code on ><6502. I'm comfortable with the reality that I'll probably never know for ><certain. Since neither processor is particularly important these days, no ><terribly important to me either. > >Agreed well written code is essential for either to do useful work. > ><None of this is really worth getting all excited about because, by the way ><in spite of its "better" performance, (by my assessment) the 6502 didn't ><accomplish more useful work on MY behalf, because I used a Z-80 running CP/ ><every chance I got due to the abundance of really decent tools and office ><automation software. > >Therein lies the key. A good system is not always defined by it's >hardware. Systems are a combination of practical hardware and functional >software. This account for why despite their flaws the TRS80, Apple II, >Z80 CPM based as well as others florished. Most people didn't program >8080z806502ti990018028085680980886800065815 they ran basic or a word >processor. the run on of part numbers was deliberate as to most people >the cpu used was just a number. > Quite so, and I'd still be waiting today to get my old 6502 to run WordStar under CP/M . . . > >Allison > >

27 years

3
3
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Signal detection

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>Generally the gauge is a reading of the AGC (automatic gain control) >>level being applied by the radio's IF. There are many other ways to derive >>this signal, but this is the most common one. >How is this AGC level derived, and how is it compared to the signal? Nothing fancy - the AGC circuit is typically just a simple rectifier followed by a RC time constant. The resulting level goes to your meter and is fed back into the IF at a point where changing a bias affects the gain. If there's a "skip over static" function in a digital tuner, it's typically done by comparing the AGC level with a fixed voltage (possibly settable with a pot somewhere.) There are fancier methods of detecting the presence of a signal if you know something specific about that signal. For instance, if you know that it's a FM stereo broadcast, you can look for the FM subcarrier. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

1
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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Well, that's not very far from what I wrote, is it? I was just pointing <out that although Allison seemed to imply that a 6 or 8MHz Z80 was much <faster than a 4MHz(? I haven't got the original message any more) 6502, I <believe that to be far from the case. I was pointing out that is the processor was running fast enough even a dog can look good. ;) Obviously using a 8mhz z80 as the standard your comparison CPU had better be of similar generational speed or it may fail the test. the inverse is with a 33mhz z185 I know I can blow the 65c02 out of the water unless someone has at least a 25-30mhz 6502! Allison

27 years

4
5
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Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward?

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Guys: I suspect there is one among us who can rightfully bear this title; if so, I need his guidance, wisdom, and council. I have some questions regarding some obscure MFM disk interfaces made by Western DIgital. Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that pre-dated the HDC's they made for the ISA bus; they were frequently found on CP/M and MP/M machines that were equipped with fixed disk drives (some of the TeleVideo machines come to mind). If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" harddrives. Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. Thanks. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

27 years

4
3
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8" drive on a pc controller

by edick＠idcomm.com

Please forgive my interloping, here, but my SHUGART and Siemens SD 8" drives are spec'd for 6 ms step rate, and the double-headed types for 3 ms. It's really best (mechanically) to step these babies as fast as they will go, and it's quieter too. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 9:41 PM Subject: Re: 8" drive on a pc controller >On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >> > > Shouldn't you gentlemen be considering, instead of which format, at >> what >> > > kind of DRIVE is involved? >> > >> > Excellent point, as I have been using a Mitsubishi that I set at 6ms. >> >> Ah! >> >> Shugart and Seimens drives, requiring 15ms. > >More usual is 10ms. > - don > > >

27 years

2
1
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OT: Religious Festivals (was:Re: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> "Kar" is derivated from the Oldhighgerman word of chara/kara with > an meaning of grief/mourning - so the Karwoche is the week of > mourning for Christ / the mourning period. While this word is > no longer in use in German (and no derivate, AFAIK), it is still > present in English as 'care' (Didn't I already mention that English > preserved a lot mor ol German words than German itself ? So learning > English is kind of learning old German.) > > I hope this wil end your life long search for the meaning of Kar. Many thanks. Perhaps one day I'll learn Anglo-saxon. This is apparently rather like learning German... > P.S.: Now solve the riddle of Ostern/Eastern. Oh no, now I'm getting even further off topic! Historically, Christianity has had a habit of placing Christian festivals next to pagan ones so as to help subsume them. A classic example is the winter solstice, which has had Christmas (Weihnachten) dumped on it. But the name of the North European solstice festival, Yule, has survived in many languages' names for Christmas. In the case of the Pascha, the date was based on the Passover - the Jewish festival at the spring equinox. This put in close to pagan equinoctial festivals, and the pagan name, Easter/Ostern, has survived in English and German. The usual explanation is that it derives from the name of a pagan goddess, Aostre. Good enough? Philip.

27 years

2
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Another item to identify

by gentry＠zk3.dec.com

Can anyone tell me what a KC341-B Microprocessor series Monitor/Control panel is? (Other than the obvious). It is a DEC item -- it appears to have the standard switches for a computer front panel, but for a 14-bit wide machine... I found two of them in my archives, still packed in their boxes. One has a cable which connects to it and which ends in a paddle board for plugging into a DEC backplane. I also have a print set for it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

2
1
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Another item to identify

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Can anyone tell me what a > > KC341-B > Microprocessor series Monitor/Control panel > >is? (Other than the obvious). It's the bench-top console for the M7341 microprocessor. The KC341-A was the rack-mount console. >It is a DEC item -- it appears to have the standard switches >for a computer front panel, but for a 14-bit wide machine... >I found two of them in my archives, still packed in their >boxes. One would presume, then, that you've got a couple M7341's in your archives, too :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

1
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OT: Welfare state morality

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> attitude is part of a larger problem. Personally, I do not like to damage >> anything, but once in a while, I like to have some fun. If I didn't do > > You know, I like to have fun as well. But my fun consists of taking a > pile of parts 'beyond economic repair' and getting them working again. Or > taking a few bits of scrap metal and learning to machine them. Or > designing Yet Another Useless Interface. In other words creating something. Hear, hear! > I really don't understand this love of breaking things. Nor do I, even though I occasionally experience it. But I try to suppress my love of braking things on the rare occasions when it does appear, because creating things is so much more fun. Philip.

27 years

2
1
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stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by edick＠idcomm.com

No, I have no personal conflict with an Apple employee. The problem to which I refer was all to common back in the '70's. Perhaps it was because of the way in which the various program vendors wrote their software, but I'd bet it's because they weren't left much choice. The detail to which I refer is the absence of a message like the infamous IBM-PC's ". . . Abort, Retry, Fail . . ." message. Once the Apple encountered a read error of some type, it seemed that it couldn't recover without a restart. I don't know the details, but I saw it every day that I was in the same room with an Apple that was not idle. It seemed that the only way to avoid this type of problem was to avoid the Apple, so, with one notable exception, that was what I did. These things are based on perceptions, though, not necessarily a sound and rigorous evaluation of the facts. I once worked in a room with over a dozen MAC's though, and was the only one with both a MAC and a PC/AT. We constantly had "trouble" with the MAC's while I continued to chug along with my PC/AT running DOS. My work was always ahead of schedule if I could stick to the PC. Now, when I ran the MAC, e.g. using EXCEL, or McDRAW, which provided functions not so readily available to the PC, I didn't have as much trouble as some of the more common programs used by the others, e.g. WORD or MacWrite. I did my writing in WordStar which I knew quite well, having used it since pre-release 0.7 (WordMaster). I imagine that quite a bit of the trouble was due to the newness of the network scheme used to share the two laser printers. I'd point out almost daily, that my PC/AT with a laser printer and a substantial hard disk, plus a COLOR display, which none of the MAC's there had, cost less than one of these MAC's alone. The bias I held against Apple products was based on the perception that lots of features and performance were sacrificed in favor of the rather lame color display, which I then felt was useful for games and other forms of entertainment, which I felt were out of place in the office. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 3:19 AM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> My contempt for Apple begins and ends with their total disregard for the >> value of your data. If you wrote to their floppies, especially if your >> computer was in the "front room" of a business, exposed to whatever dust was >> carried in by customers and wind, etc, from the parking lot, (I had a client >> years ago, whose mail-order business was operated with the "help" of an >> Apple-II with two controllers and three drives in just such a location.) >> you'd frequently observe the computer locking up because it had come to a >> bit it couldn't read. The reason was probably contamination of media or >> drives, but the only recovery was the reset. Your data, meanwhile, and >> perhaps your customer calling long distance, were gone by now. They >> designed the MAC with no memory parity assuming that you'd not mind if your >> data was corrupted without your knowledge, and though the disk handling was >> a bit more mature than the Apple-II "I give up . . . and die" it wasn't much >> better. > >This sounds like poorly written software to me. The only time I've ever >had my Apple ][ lock up because some data couldn't be read from the disk >was because the software told the Apple to lock up. I think your bias is >totally unfounded, or at least founded upon a predisposition to hating the >Apple ][ for some odd reason. Did an Apple employee fart near you or spit >on your car at some point in your life or something? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

27 years

11
19
0 0

Software collectors list

by PB14＠leicester.ac.uk

On 12 Apr 99 at 21:36, Mike Ford wrote: > I have been thinking about and looking for a list like this one, except > instead of hardware collecting, it would be about collecting software. I > haven't found any existing list, so I am getting motivated to start a list > on one of the various services that will host a list for free (free free > ideally, but I don't have a problem with an ad supported list server > either). I have a fair amount of feedback that such a list would be > desirable, so other than a charter which I am still thinking on, two basic > questions need answering in the next few days so I can get going. It's a while since anyone last posted the charter for this list, but I'm sure that it doesn't discourage discussion of >10year software. I though Classiccmp was about the entire "classic computing experience" not just the hardware nitty gritty anyway? Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14(a)le.ac.uk

27 years

5
4
0 0

30 pin simms, not so hard to find.

by edick＠idcomm.com

What it amounts to is soldering the "front" of the SIMM to one edge of the pins and soldering the reverse side to the other. if the edge of the SIMM is appropriately close to the pin-strip, it makes a very solid connection, with the loading stresses well distributed. It doesn't stagger anything. These screw-machine single-pin sockets come in plastic strips which keep them aligned. The way I accomplish this sort of thing is plug them into a board which fits their barrel and proceed to solder the connections, end pins first, on each side of the SIMM until the job is finished. It's a lot of work, and not always worth it. I once soldered 4 4MB SIMMs into this arrangement, only to learn that the motherboard I was using wouldn't deal with the 4 MB parts. . . . too bad . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 9:41 AM Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. >At 09:23 AM 4/16/1999 -0600, you wrote: >>BTW, it's important that they be soldered on both sides. That's what makes >>the job difficult. > >How in the world do you do that? Wouldn't they become staggered? > >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

27 years

1
0
0 0

30 pin simms, not so hard to find.

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: > Actually, there was a DIPP package for many of the DRAMs. It was a > single-in-line-looking version of the DIP, except that all the pins were on > one side and they were staggered in their alignment. I have several classic machines that use them, the Amiga 3000 included. > These were most often referred to as ZIP's, though I don't know why. Zigzag Inline Package > The package was somewhat popular for about 5 years, after which it fell > into disuse. They were more fragile than DIP DRAMs (I've broken several pins off over the years), but they did provide much better RAM density over DIPs. If you wanted 4Mb of RAM with 256K parts or 16Mb of RAM with 1Mb parts, the board space for DIPs was enormous. What really killed ZIPs wasn't just the fragile nature of the pins, it was the rise of SIPPs then SIMMs, once the custom sockets became available. You get ZIP-like memory density with very few customer-acccessible interconnects to go wrong. I have a pile of 1Mx1 ZIPs that I don't need (I got a bag of mixed chips and pulled all the 256Kx4's for my A3000). Does anyone out there need some 70 or 80ns 1Mx1 ZIPs? I also have a few *massive* ZIPs that I think are video memory of some kind. I'll have to look up the part number. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

27 years

1
0
0 0

30 pin simms, not so hard to find.

by edick＠idcomm.com

BTW, it's important that they be soldered on both sides. That's what makes the job difficult. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 9:13 AM Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. >You can solder a SIMM to a 30-pin row of screw-machine socket pins (not >easy, but it works) and end up with connections much superior to what you >normally get with SIPPs. They will not bend as easily and you'll have much >less trouble with the beasties than with normal SIPPs, especially the ones >which have once had a bent pin, because those continue to want to bend. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 6:57 AM >Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. > > >> >>>>Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? >>> >>>I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? >> >>A DIPP is another name for SIPP by morons (Like myself) who momentarily >>forgot that SIPP was the correct name. >> >>Anyone have any small 1Mb SIPPs? >> >>---------------------------------------- >> Tired of Micro$oft??? >> >> Move up to a REAL OS... >>######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >>#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >>####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >>###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >>##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### >># ###### >> ("LINUX" for those of you >> without fixed-width fonts) >>---------------------------------------- >>Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com >> >>Slackware Mailing List: >>http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html >

27 years

2
1
0 0

30 pin simms, not so hard to find.

by clintw＠colorado.cirrus.com

> > Actually, there was a DIPP package for many of the DRAMs. It was a > single-in-line-looking version of the DIP, except that all the pins were on > one side and they were staggered in their alignment. These were most often > referred to as ZIP's, though I don't know why. The package was somewhat > popular for about 5 years, after which it fell into disuse. > > Dick ZIP == ZigZag Inline Package

27 years

1
0
0 0

30 pin simms, not so hard to find.

by edick＠idcomm.com

Actually, there was a DIPP package for many of the DRAMs. It was a single-in-line-looking version of the DIP, except that all the pins were on one side and they were staggered in their alignment. These were most often referred to as ZIP's, though I don't know why. The package was somewhat popular for about 5 years, after which it fell into disuse. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Roberts <geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 8:53 AM Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 10:19 PM >Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. > > >> >> >>Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? >> > >> >I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? >> >> A DIPP is another name for SIPP by morons (Like myself) who momentarily >> forgot that SIPP was the correct name. >> >> Anyone have any small 1Mb SIPPs? > >Yes I have quite a few ex 386SX-20 Diskless workstations circa 1993. >Er small? Was there more than one size. >These are the same size as the equivalent simm, and can be converted to same >by CAREFULLY removing the pins and the solder. (Not easy, but I have done >it and made it work on occasion - though only when desperate it's a real >PITA) > >Cheers > >Geoff Roberts > >

27 years

1
0
0 0

Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Oddly enough, though it hasn't been my stock-in-trade for about 15 years, I still have the manual for the original WD-1000 controller. I may, in fact, even have one of the boards around somewhere. I certainly have a couple of the ones used in the TVI TS-806-20's I have sitting in the driveway (under 4" of snow, at the moment). Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 9:07 AM Subject: Re: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 1:45 AM >Subject: Re: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? > > >>> Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that >>[...] >>> If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would >>> like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" >>> harddrives. >> >>Regrettably I no longer have the manual or schematics for these, so a lot >>of this is from memory. >> >>The WD1000-5 was the WD1000 repackaged on an 8" * 5.75" board, to match the >>form factor of 5.25" drives. > > >There's more to the difference than that. For one thing, the WD1000 series >used the WD1100 chipset and an 8X300 microcontroller to run the whole thing, >while the WD1000-05 and -08, as well as the later models, used the WD1010 >chip along with other combinations of the 40-pin support chipset of which >WD1014, which was, in at least one incarnation, an 8041. > >>The original WD1000 and WD1001 had both 34 and 50 pin drive control >>connectors. I'm guessing that the WD1000-5 left the 50 pin connector out. >>However, you only need to scramble the pins appropriately, as the actual >>signals are the same. All odd pins are ground on both connectors; the >others >>should map thusly: >> >> 34-pin 50-pin signal >> >> 2 2 *RWC reduced write current >> 4 4 *HS2 head select 2 >> 6 40 *WG write gate >> 8 8 *SC seek complete >> 10 42 *TK0 track 0 >> 12 44 *WF write fault >> 14 14 *HS0 head select 0 >> 16 NC >> 18 18 *HS1 head select 1 >> 20 20 *IDX index >> 22 22 *RDY ready >> 24 36 *STEP >> 26 26 *DS1 drive select 1 >> 28 28 *DS2 drive select 2 >> 30 30 *DS3 drive select 3 >> 32 32 *DS4 drive select 4 >> 34 34 *DIR step direction (in when asserted) > > >This should look pretty much like 8" floppy disks. An early controller I >built used an FDC chip to drive these control signals, as the 8" Winchesters >had the same maximal step rate back then as the 8" double-headed FDD's. >That's overkill, and the FDC expects to see things from the data stream >which close the loop, and it won't see them. Open-loop, e.g. simple >head-positioning command operation is possible, at least to see if the >drive's mechanical functions are working. An enterprising approach would be >to operate the drive with a pair of small single-chippers one fairly slow >one to handle the head positioning, and the other a fairly quick one to >modulate the data, e.g. with ERLL code as was used in the PERSTOR >controllers. > >>The radial data connectors are the same for both drive sizes. > > >Yes except that some drives extracted clock locally and sent it on the data >cable as well. For that reason, it would be advisable to stick with the >4.34 MHz data rate. Keep in mind, also, that while the wide cable is driven >with open collectors, the data cable is intended to be driven with >differential drivers/receivers of the MC3486/87 or 26LS31/32 type. > >>The bigger problem is that 8-inch drives used a data rate of 4.34 Mbps >rather >>than 5 Mbps. I seem to recall that the WD1000 had a jumper setting for >this. >>If they removed the 50-pin drive control connector, they probably also >removed >>the jumper and supporting circuitry. > > >Western Digital was somewhat confused about how they should number their >controller models back in those days, and the scheme got muddled, but as I >recall, and I have some controllers to prove it, the data rate was fixed on >the board at the factory, in some cases, particularly the larger WD1000 >boards with the WD1100 chips + 8X300 on board, had a discrete VCO as opposed >to the 74S124 or the LS624 they later used. These VCO's had to be tuned >quite carefully and a procedure was included in the instruction manual. >There were jumpers for accomplishing this tuning operation on nearly every >type of board in this entire family, but one needed both a crystal and a >retuned VCO for the PLL, not to mention changing the passive components in >the integrator (LPF) of the clock extraction circuitry. The process of >setting the VCO center frequency was not terribly difficult, but one had to >know which jumpers to remove at which stage of the operation because there >were inputs to the circuit which had to be active and other which had to be >passive at different stages of the operation. > >>> Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" >>> Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, >>> but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. >> >>No data here, but almost certainly not 110 VAC. Probably 24V AC and 5V DC. > > >The power connections are precisely what is used with an 8" FDD, including a >110 VAC supply for the spindle motor. Don't forget that some 8" drives had >to be fed a negative 5V supply while others could swallow either -12 Vdc >or -5, depending on a jumper because they had on-board regulation. You have >to look for the regulator and ensure it has the jumper which bypassed it in >the correct position. > >>You *might* be able to get a Q2040 to run at 5 Mbps, but I've never >personally seen it done. > >We, meaning my people and I, tried this several times and never got it to >work reliably with Shugart drives. They did some signal processing on the >data, and included clock on the cable, so you might be able to skip the VCO >retuning if you can find the "right" place to inject this conditioned clock >in the data/clock recovery circuit. I'd be surprised to find the Quantum >drives did things much differently, as they had to be compatible with the >Shugarts, and some controllers, e.g. Intel's, relied on the drives or other >external circuitry to extract clock. >

27 years

1
0
0 0

30 pin simms, not so hard to find.

by edick＠idcomm.com

You can solder a SIMM to a 30-pin row of screw-machine socket pins (not easy, but it works) and end up with connections much superior to what you normally get with SIPPs. They will not bend as easily and you'll have much less trouble with the beasties than with normal SIPPs, espacially the ones which have once had a bent pin, because those continue to want to bend. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 6:57 AM Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find. > >>>Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs?? >> >>I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? > >A DIPP is another name for SIPP by morons (Like myself) who momentarily >forgot that SIPP was the correct name. > >Anyone have any small 1Mb SIPPs? > >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

27 years

1
0
0 0

Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward?

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 1:45 AM Subject: Re: Will The Grand Master Of Disk Controllers step foreward? >> Specifically the WD-1000-5 disk controller. These are the ones that >[...] >> If you are intimately familiar with this legendary interface, I would >> like to hear from you. I need to figure out how to modify it for 8" >> harddrives. > >Regrettably I no longer have the manual or schematics for these, so a lot >of this is from memory. > >The WD1000-5 was the WD1000 repackaged on an 8" * 5.75" board, to match the >form factor of 5.25" drives. There's more to the difference than that. For one thing, the WD1000 series used the WD1100 chipset and an 8X300 microcontroller to run the whole thing, while the WD1000-05 and -08, as well as the later models, used the WD1010 chip along with other combinations of the 40-pin support chipset of which WD1014, which was, in at least one incarnation, an 8041. >The original WD1000 and WD1001 had both 34 and 50 pin drive control >connectors. I'm guessing that the WD1000-5 left the 50 pin connector out. >However, you only need to scramble the pins appropriately, as the actual >signals are the same. All odd pins are ground on both connectors; the others >should map thusly: > > 34-pin 50-pin signal > > 2 2 *RWC reduced write current > 4 4 *HS2 head select 2 > 6 40 *WG write gate > 8 8 *SC seek complete > 10 42 *TK0 track 0 > 12 44 *WF write fault > 14 14 *HS0 head select 0 > 16 NC > 18 18 *HS1 head select 1 > 20 20 *IDX index > 22 22 *RDY ready > 24 36 *STEP > 26 26 *DS1 drive select 1 > 28 28 *DS2 drive select 2 > 30 30 *DS3 drive select 3 > 32 32 *DS4 drive select 4 > 34 34 *DIR step direction (in when asserted) This should look pretty much like 8" floppy disks. An early controller I built used an FDC chip to drive these control signals, as the 8" Winchesters had the same maximal step rate back then as the 8" double-headed FDD's. That's overkill, and the FDC expects to see things from the data stream which close the loop, and it won't see them. Open-loop, e.g. simple head-positioning command operation is possible, at least to see if the drive's mechanical functions are working. An enterprising approach would be to operate the drive with a pair of small single-chippers one fairly slow one to handle the head positioning, and the other a fairly quick one to modulate the data, e.g. with ERLL code as was used in the PERSTOR controllers. >The radial data connectors are the same for both drive sizes. Yes except that some drives extracted clock locally and sent it on the data cable as well. For that reason, it would be advisable to stick with the 4.34 MHz data rate. Keep in mind, also, that while the wide cable is driven with open collectors, the data cable is intended to be driven with differential drivers/receivers of the MC3486/87 or 26LS31/32 type. >The bigger problem is that 8-inch drives used a data rate of 4.34 Mbps rather >than 5 Mbps. I seem to recall that the WD1000 had a jumper setting for this. >If they removed the 50-pin drive control connector, they probably also removed >the jumper and supporting circuitry. Western Digital was somewhat confused about how they should number their controller models back in those days, and the scheme got muddled, but as I recall, and I have some controllers to prove it, the data rate was fixed on the board at the factory, in some cases, particularly the larger WD1000 boards with the WD1100 chips + 8X300 on board, had a discrete VCO as opposed to the 74S124 or the LS624 they later used. These VCO's had to be tuned quite carefully and a procedure was included in the instruction manual. There were jumpers for accomplishing this tuning operation on nearly every type of board in this entire family, but one needed both a crystal and a retuned VCO for the PLL, not to mention changing the passive components in the integrator (LPF) of the clock extraction circuitry. The process of setting the VCO center frequency was not terribly difficult, but one had to know which jumpers to remove at which stage of the operation because there were inputs to the circuit which had to be active and other which had to be passive at different stages of the operation. >> Also, does anyone have docs for the Quantum Q-2040 8" >> Winchester? I dunno what kind of power to feed it (24v sounds correct, >> but I seem to recall it used 110vac also!), and so on. > >No data here, but almost certainly not 110 VAC. Probably 24V AC and 5V DC. The power connections are precisely what is used with an 8" FDD, including a 110 VAC supply for the spindle motor. Don't forget that some 8" drives had to be fed a negative 5V supply while others could swallow either -12 Vdc or -5, depending on a jumper because they had on-board regulation. You have to look for the regulator and ensure it has the jumper which bypassed it in the correct position. >You *might* be able to get a Q2040 to run at 5 Mbps, but I've never personally seen it done. We, meaning my people and I, tried this several times and never got it to work reliably with Shugart drives. They did some signal processing on the data, and included clock on the cable, so you might be able to skip the VCO retuning if you can find the "right" place to inject this conditioned clock in the data/clock recovery circuit. I'd be surprised to find the Quantum drives did things much differently, as they had to be compatible with the Shugarts, and some controllers, e.g. Intel's, relied on the drives or other external circuitry to extract clock.

27 years

1
0
0 0

Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>>Hang on. I don't claim to be fluent in C, so I was keeping out of this debate, >>but this is well weird! As I understand it, you don't have to prototype >>anything in C - or shouldn't have to. The only C compiler I've ever used >>doesn't even SUPPORT prototypes! > > I'm just not good with jargon. I meant declaring. In perl, everything is > dynamically allocated. You don't do "int foo; foo=5;", you just do > "$foo=5;". Oh, I see. In that case I agree. Philip.

27 years

1
0
0 0

More InnfoGraphics auction listings in Portland, OR, USA

by Innfogra＠aol.com

I have added more info to the classic computer section of the Innfographics auction web page. http://members.aol.com/innfograph It will be an interesting sale. Paxton

27 years

1
0
0 0

Remove My Email Address From the Classiccmp List

by mikeparadiso＠worldnet.att.net

Please remove my email address from the classiccmp list. This email address is now being used by my business. I will be getting a new address just for the classiccmp list. Thanks, Mike mikeparadiso(a)worldnet.att.net

27 years

2
1
0 0

Worst of Both Worlds (IMPORTANT)

by max82＠surfree.com

I saw a blurb in the newspaper (available at http://www.tcm.org/join_forces.html) that The Computer Museum and The Science Museum in Boston, MA are merging. It says that 'The History Center' of the Computer Museum is now in Mountain View, California and is applying to become a separate institution. Anyway, this shuffling may mean lots of stuff being thrown out or damaged. The Computer Museum may opt to clean out its basement... --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power

27 years

7
7
0 0

OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> wrote: > > > > 30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now compared to > > ease of obtaining used 72pin of all types. > > I'll swap 4 4mb 30 pit Simms for 16mb true parity 72pin simms in a minute. > (The Sparc IPX used 33 bit wide Simms) but 36 will work. I'd do the same. I have more 4Mx9 SIMMs than I need, and I do need between two and four 16Mb true parity 72-pin SIMMs for a SPARC-LX (60ns) or my Alpha (70ns). -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

27 years

1
0
0 0

PET rediscoveries and questions

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

While going through the stuff on my top shelf, I ran across some boxes I aquired when the local Commodore dealer went out of business several years ago. Among the booty are a couple of special boards that I need some more info on before I can put them to use... I have these two boards, new in the box, with all the cables, etc., one Computhink (324042-01) and one BMB (324038-01). There's excellent scanned docs on ftp.funet.fi as well as three demo disk images (which I believe are very recent). I even happen to have one SuperPET language reference manual. Do I need anything else? How do I go about selecting the different languages in there? Does anyone out there have a SuperPET with docs/software? I'd love to find out a little bit about it before I go mucking around inside an 8032. Thanks, -ethan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

27 years

1
0
0 0

8" drive on a pc controller

by bill＠chipware.com

> > Shouldn't you gentlemen be considering, instead of which format, at what > > kind of DRIVE is involved? > > Excellent point, as I have been using a Mitsubishi that I set at 6ms. Ah! Shugart and Seimens drives, requiring 15ms.

27 years

2
1
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MINIMUM Requirements (Was: OT: Re: Time to declare

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 4/15/99 9:11:07 PM Central Daylight Time, cisin(a)xenosoft.com writes: > billg said that 95 would work with 4M, but I was never able to run > anything but "safe mode" (I have an NEC VERSA 486 that rejects memory > expansion) > my girlfriend runs 95 on a 386-20 dec laptop with 4M. it works. printing a page on the Laserjet takes 5 minutes.

27 years

1
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Xerox System 60?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Does anyone know what the purpose of a Xerox System 60 is? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]

27 years

1
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OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 99-04-15 19:12:43 EDT, you write: > The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age :) > How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium, > I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies. > I have no problem running Windows 3.1, I like it a lot more in some ways. > It's a very nice program, now that I've seen the alternative :) > > --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power there's nothing wrong with a 386 running win3.1 i think the min requirements for windont95 is 386dx-40 and 8meg. i setup a ps2 model 57sx for a person that normally couldnt afford one and put plenty of old software like msworks and publisher and some dos games as well as an external 14.4 modem. a local isp will help her set it up for net access and she's happy as a clam. it is slow, but certainly better than nothing. heck, even doom 2 will run on a 386 if you run it in a small window!

27 years

2
1
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Worst of Both Worlds (IMPORTANT)

by mbg＠world.std.com

>> I saw a blurb in the newspaper (available at >> http://www.tcm.org/join_forces.html) that The Computer Museum and The >> Science Museum in Boston, MA are merging. It says that 'The History >> Center' of the Computer Museum is now in Mountain View, California and >> is applying to become a separate institution. Anyway, this shuffling >> may mean lots of stuff being thrown out or damaged. The Computer Museum >> may opt to clean out its basement... > >OK, so who is close enough to dumpster-dive? I am... and I think Allison might be interested... I heard something about this on NPR earlier today... they were talking about how the purposes of both museums (with regard to computers) are compatible in that they want to focus on the affect computers have had on our lives... I take that to mean that they won't be as interested in the hardware and specific technologies... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

1
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OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>Personally, I tend to draw the line at the 386. In a Windows and GUI world <>I really don't want the aggravation to trying to teach someone text mode <>apps or of having to listen when they can't find *any* software. This is <>the same reason I will never give another person an Apple II unless they <>already know about and want one. Most of the later 386 are ok, parts are easy and they do run winders95 though W3.1 is a better match. I know I've done it. The real market for them is the MINIX/LINIX crowd as those OSs can really make them sing. Minix on a DELL 316 (386slx/16 with 8mb) really runs well and linux on same is fair. Allison

27 years

1
0
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NEC APC III

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I need a boot disk for an NEC APC III. I believe it has a 720k 5.25" floppy, and uses a special version of DOS 2.11. My question is: If I can't find a 720k 5.25" floppy (360k disks won't work), would I be able to replace it with a 720k 3.5" drive? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

27 years

3
2
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Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail? (Was: stepping machanism

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

> 2-dimensional array. You don't have to prototype anything which is why I > called it a lazy person's C. Hang on. I don't claim to be fluent in C, so I was keeping out of this debate, but this is well weird! As I understand it, you don't have to prototype anything in C - or shouldn't have to. The only C compiler I've ever used doesn't even SUPPORT prototypes! (And that brings it back on topic, since it was installed in 1987 on the RT PC later to become mine...) Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. **********************************************************************

27 years

3
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Salvage (was Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> wrote: > Max, > > How many of the oddball PS2 floppy drives were wasted? I could use one or > two. Sure they arent valueable but when you need one... I also use parts > to the soldered board level. I haven't got any spare PS2 floppies, but I do have a box of Sony floppy drives, OEMed for Tandy that have blue eject buttons and no power connector. I declined to purchase the $40 adapter (Radio Shack 1992 price) that allows them to be used in a regular PC so I don't know the pinout (i.e., where the voltage comes in on the 34-pin connector). I do not know the density, but I suspect them to be 720K. A) Does anyone want any of these? B) Does anyone have the pinout of the 34-pin connector? Thanks, -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

27 years

4
3
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Several things

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Fair enough. Just another example of different places to draw boundaries, with >> grey areas in between. I would call the ROM version microcoded, and the hard >> wired version not, because the ROM version contains CODE. (I would agree that > > I think a lot of people would. I just have problems distinguishing them > in the first place. > > This might be because I've worked with FPGAs where the logic block (5 > inputs 1 out) is a 32 bit RAM. I give my schematic to the FPGA compiler > and it partitions the logic into suitable bits and works out what to > stick in the RAMs to make the gates I need. Since I always checked (and > sometimes corrected) what the compiler had done, I got used to thinking > of combinatorial logic and programmed memories as being roughly the same > thing. Makes sense. Another grey area. I must admit that I too would call that microcode. This is reminiscent of the famous analogu/digital grey area... >> To show how grey this is, if you use a ROM to implement the combinatorial logic >> for a flipflop-per-state machine, would you call the code in this ROM microcode? > > Hmmm... Now you mention it, I guess I have to call that microcode. I'm > therefore inconsistent... I wouldn't worry about it. Goedel's theorem says that if you weren't, you'd have to be incomplete :-) Philip.

27 years

2
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OT: Religious Festivals (was:Re: Fwd: H8 Enthusiasts)

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

>>The Friday before Easter is called Good Friday. I've never managed to >>work out what "kar" means in your name for it. My favourite, though >>is Ascension, which I understand you call Himmelfahrt... > > Literally, "gone to Heaven" -- my wife's maiden name (unmarried -- not sure Yes, I got that (or "journey to Heaven"), from German O-level [UK exam taken at age 16]. "Weihnacten", for Christmas, doesn't take much decoding to get "holy night(s)". But my dictionary is quite silent as to what the element "kar-" might represent. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. **********************************************************************

27 years

2
1
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Can someone identify some boards?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>The ROI is a rebadged Emulex UC07 SCSI disk or Tape, If you don't have >docs let me know and I will organize something. The >Emulex_unknown_001.jpg is a CS08 8 line mux - DHV11 emulation. I will >need some more # from the plessey to figure it out. Thanks VERY much... this helps. Yes, I would like more info on the ROI board... Specifically I'd like to know about the switch pack and its settings... (I love this resource...:-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

1
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8" drive on a pc controller

by bill＠chipware.com

> Oh? I'm running v1.44 and have no such problems. Try creating a disk with a large directory, more than two tracks. Then try to display the directory. On all of the drives that I have tried, you will hear that little "click/tick" sound indicating that it tried to step the heads too fast. You will then get a spurious media failure message. Of course, it is possible that I missed something in the instructions, but I beat my head against it for a long time. Then tried the older version where you can manually set the step delay and volia! No problems.

27 years

3
3
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step signal on 8" floppy drive

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

Hmm, perhaps wiring an external Terak floppy drive to a PC is a bit more complicated than i thought. I forgot that the Terak main unit controls the power switch on the external drive somehow. Looking inside teh case, it looks like the signal wires that correspond to "Step" have a special connection in addition to going to the floppy drive. This must be what is controlling the on/off switch, but i'm curious now as to how the "Step" signal is supposed to work. Does anyone see how this might be used to control the power? And do you think i'm completely nuts to connect this thing to my PC, ie, is it likely to burn out the motherboard ;) ... Ah well, its not like it would be the first time i fried a computer. -Lawrence LeMay

27 years

3
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Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Wed Apr 14 21:46:30 1999 <Return-Path: <CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu> <Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0 < id AA01313; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:46:27 -0400 <Received: from host (server(a)lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) < by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with SMTP id SAA1 < Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:46:23 -0700 <Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8] < by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id SAA2 < for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:46:16 -0700 <Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [19 <Indeed you have... In fact, IMHO, everyone here who does design, or <serious logic troubleshooting/repair should consider this instrument. Yes <it's expensive (\pounds 550+tax in the UK). But I think it's well worth it Well I don't have to have it... I have a 16 channel analyser good to 20mhz and two 0'scopes and a custom anlyser hack I did years ago. Generally if I have to bring out the scope it's nasty. The 8f was trouble shot with nothing more than my fluke 12 multimeter as it ws closest at hand. <Even an LED and a resistor (between an IC pin and ground) is a good <start. No you won't see fast pulses. But you will see things that are <stuck it totally the wrong state. I debugged my first homebrew <microcomputer (SC/MP + RAM, basically) using just such an LED+resistor I have one in a clear pen barrel with a point and and a cliplead, very handy! It's pretty easy to tell, high low and something that's pulsing even at high rates. Another handy item is a 4040 cmos counter to make fast things into tones (earphone). That trick came from the NS* disck controller troubleshooting hints. Intelligently used simple tools can be very useful. Allison

27 years

3
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Vintage Computer Festival Announcement!

by fsc729＠yahoo.com

Hey I live near Santa Clara when and where is this vintage computer festival going to take place. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

27 years

4
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OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

> >Off the top of my head I do not know of a similar org here. There is >however the MassTech Core which is involved in getting computeres into >schools (internet based, so only 386 or higher need apply). > When I get PC's (286,386 and 486) with equipment I need I donate them to the local Hospice group. Every year they run a huge flea market here and sell them for anywhere from $100 to $400. How they get the prices they get I have never been able to figure out other than they are nonprofit and a good cause. A few years ago they were having to buy standard NEMA power cords for systems that had been donated. When I found out I went out to my truck and found a few loose ones. A couple months later I got several hundred with a large lot of DEC equipment and they were very happy to get those as well. The last couple years they have been tight on storage space so now they call me when they are ready for some. This year they called as I was unloading a bunch of PC's and trying to figure out what to do with them. Boy was I happy they called. Dan

27 years

1
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IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

Larry Walker wrote: > Muellers 3rd edition mentions 3 to 6 custom cards. You also required the > 3270PC keyboard and the 5272 monitor which allegedly was comparable to an > EGA. Other than that it was a stock XT M-B 5272 was 720 * 350 pixels, like an EGA, but only 8 colours. I seem to remember reading recently that the 3270-PC could use the IBM monochrome display instead (which presumably meant that it emulated a 3278 instead of a 3279) > He outlines the boards which are > > 1. 3270 System Adapter- to connect to a remote 3274 controller > > 2. Display Adapter- extended-character in 8 colors > > 3. Extended Graphics Adapter for local graphics in Hi (2colorsat 720x350 or > 640x200) and med. (4 colors at 360x350 or 320x200) IBM called this an XGA > not the same as the PS2 Extended Graphics ARRAY. Interesting. It seems that IBM terminology is not only different from both American and British dialects of our language, but internally different on the too sides of the Atlantic too. At IBM Bristol, this was _always_ called the APA card. > 4. Programmed Symbols Adapter to provide graphics capabilities available on > 3278/3279 display stations. Needed the XGA in an adjacent slot. Joes' card. Needed the XGA in an adjacent slot? Ouch! I had always assumed that you could have just this and the display adaptor, but I admit to having no evidence to back this up. > 5. Keyboard Adapter - went in the 8th slot and connected the special K-B. > > On delivery the XT slots in the 3270PC were filled with the Sys adapter, the > display adapter,K-B adapter, FDD adapter, and HDD controller. With the graphic > adapter and memory multifunction card not much room left. > Interestingly the 3270PC Control Program allowed up to 7 windows at one time. > Shades of things to come. Apparently there was also an AT version. I'd forgotten that the keyboard adaptor was a separate card. IIRC, it came with a special cable that linked it to the keyboard and to the keyboard port of the XT. The keyboard, as well as having 24 function keys instead of the XT's usual 10, had keys like "jump" to move between windows. These keys were intercepted by the keyboard adapter and _not_ passed on to the keyboard port on the motherboard. I think the card also locked out the motherboard KB port totally when it was being a terminal. Software did exist for talking to the host, looking at the terminal's screen and file transfer under PC program control, but none of it was very easy to use. (I had to program around it.) Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. **********************************************************************

27 years

1
0
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Can someone identify some boards?

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

The ROI is a rebadged Emulex UC07 SCSI disk or Tape, If you don't have docs let me know and I will organize something. The Emulex_unknown_001.jpg is a CS08 8 line mux - DHV11 emulation. I will need some more # from the plessey to figure it out. Dan ->Rather then describe them, I've got scanned images... can someone >take a look and tell me what they might be? Even better, if someone >can tell me how they are configured, I'd really appreciate it. > > ftp://ftp.std.com/ftp/pub/mbg/scans/ > emulex_unknown_001.jpg > plessey_unknown_001.jpg > roi_unknown_scsi.jpg > I know this is a scsi board, for qbus, but > it may be a proto... > g5389_q22_bus_exer_rev_b.jpg > I know what it is (not the option name, though), > I'd like to know how to use it... > > Thanks in advance... > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >

27 years

1
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Can someone identify some boards?

by gentry＠zk3.dec.com

Rather then describe them, I've got scanned images... can someone take a look and tell me what they might be? Even better, if someone can tell me how they are configured, I'd really appreciate it. ftp://ftp.std.com/ftp/pub/mbg/scans/ emulex_unknown_001.jpg plessey_unknown_001.jpg roi_unknown_scsi.jpg I know this is a scsi board, for qbus, but it may be a proto... g5389_q22_bus_exer_rev_b.jpg I know what it is (not the option name, though), I'd like to know how to use it... Thanks in advance... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

1
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[OT] <10 yo DG Aviion

by dlw＠trailingedge.com

>This is probably one of the multi-processor machines, and is in a >deskside configuration, if I'm guessing correctly. Correct. It is in a tower-style case and has a basic terminal for the console. I worked on this box a few years ago when I was at this company and seem to recall it had something like dual M88100s. >DG seem to have that philosophy, yes. They have an odd market >presence. Strange isn't it? :-) >Let us know if you find anything. I'll check those newsgroups. Isn't there a DG newsgroup? I'll have to check. So far about all I've found are some dealers selling memory or re-selling old boxes. I did find one guy who says he has a couple of boxes too and is trying to get enough info to begin porting Linux to them. That's about it so far. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw(a)trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com

27 years

4
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Has anybody heard from Wirehead?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

He's gotta be out there somewhere. I had some OSI computer marketing material out on extended loan to him and I got the materials back about 2.5 weeks ago. In a message dated 15/04/99 8:37:57 Eastern Daylight Time, fauradon(a)pclink.com writes: << He cashed mine about a month ago and I also Have had very little contact with him. Last I got was that he was traveling or otherwise swamped by his job. His last e-mail stated that he'll ship on monday and confirm by e-mail but I have not received such confirmation... I'm getting impatient too... Francois >I haven't heard from him either. He cashed my check on April 5, 1999. Let me >know if you hear from him. > > >>

27 years

1
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Has anybody heard from Wirehead?

by fauradon＠pclink.com

He cashed mine about a month ago and I also Have had very little contact with him. Last I got was that he was traveling or otherwise swamped by his job. His last e-mail stated that he'll ship on monday and confirm by e-mail but I have not received such confirmation... I'm getting impatient too... Francois >I haven't heard from him either. He cashed my check on April 5, 1999. Let me >know if you hear from him. > >

27 years

1
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Trenton Computer Festival

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

I'm thinking about attending the upcoming Trenton Computer Festival. Unfortunately, if I do go, I won't be able to make it until Sunday. Any opinions on whether or not the second day of the TCF is worth a two and a half hour drive? Thanks. Tom Owad

27 years

5
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More odd things: HP150

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 09:26 AM 4/15/99 +1000, you wrote: > >There is a touchscreen alignment option, but i've yet to figure out if >it's working properly. I've never had much luck with that one. There are other tests there somewhere in the menu. Joe

27 years

2
1
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polarised floppy connectors

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

Ok, on a polarised 34 pin floppy connector, which end is pin 1? I'd rather not wire my adapter cables backwards, even though they would still be usable if i connected it to a non-polarised adapter... -Lawrence LeMay

27 years

4
5
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OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Max, How many of the oddball PS2 floppy drives were wasted? I could use one or two. Sure they arent valueable but when you need one... I also use parts to the soldered board level. As to your comment 1.2*shipping, that's actually quite fair. MA is the enemy, they want to make up all poor. Allison

27 years

1
0
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Several things

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> To try and keep this on topic, how did Ferguson do ABS in the early 1970s? I >> don't believe they would have used a microprocessor. I'd guess at an analogue >> computer, probably not even electronic. Would this be less frightening to >> Tony. > > > Was this the Jenson FFS? I've never heard of the Jenson FFS, I'm afraid. The system I was thinking of was called the Ferguson "Formula" All-Wheel Control system. It had four-wheel drive and ABS. I heard about it beacuse one was fitted to a Triumph Stag in ?1973, and said car was on display at the Stag Owners' Club National Day in 1991. Philip.

27 years

2
1
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The Final Paxton Warehouse Auction announced!

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

Just when you thot it would never happen... (and with almost no notice as usual) Its going down this Saturday, 17-April-1999! Preview at 0900 Auction starts at 1100 Details (such as they are) at: http://members.aol.com/innfograph (for those not familiar with this - its in Portland, Oregon) -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live!

27 years

3
2
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AT&T 3B2

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

Well, theres good news and bad news. The good news is, I saved a pair of AT&T 3B2 computers. The bad news is, they have been trashed pretty badly by our local chapter of ACM. No screws holding the case together, or even holding most of the internal stuff together (power supply floating around, floppy floating, etc). The case is not attractive, and one has spray painted words on it, i think in an attempt to prevent theft (i guess it stops dumb thieves who cant figure out hwo to ether remove teh paint, or paint over the paint). Anyways, any pointers to 3B2 information would be helpful. Possibly these are only good for parts, i know they only had one of them working, and that one apparently woudl crash frequently... These are 3B2/300's if that matters much. -Lawrence LeMay

27 years

3
2
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Has anybody heard from Wirehead?

by fpp＠concentric.net

I haven't heard from him either. He cashed my check on April 5, 1999. Let me know if you hear from him.

27 years

1
0
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Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<It'll run as a 3 channel logic analyser, up to 100MHz. 3 channels doesn't <sound like much, and compared to a 32 channel benchtop analyser it isn't. <But it's enough to tell if there ever is overlap between D and clock on a <flip-flop or somethign like that Gotta get me one of those. <[Trivial reason] It has selectable input thresholds. Most logic probes <are TTL only, or maybe TTL and CMOS switchable. The LogicDart will do ECL <levels. It'll even work with the -15V logic used in the HP9100... My suggestion was adaquate to get that person out of a jam if need be. Simple probles are fairly easy to make. Another useful tools is a 14/16pin logic clip, a self powered clicp that displays the pins as leds. it has it limits but can be handy. If there is a point sometimes the expensie spread is not needed to see that an input or output is simply stuck. Allison

27 years

2
1
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8" drive on a pc controller

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

Well, I'm about to start making various custom ribbon cables, for hooking a terak disk drive to a pc controller, to connect a DSDD 8" drive to a pc controller, and to connect a 5.25" drive to a 8" controller (cromemco). As I dont have all the necessary connectors yet, my first attempt will be hooking a terak drive to my PC. I have 3 different documents all describing this sort of thing, and it looks like you have to read carefully and consider exactly what you're trying to connect, in order to get a few of the lines connected correctly. Thats fine, i'll see if i can figure that out. One thing concerns me though. My oldest document mentions using pull-up resistors connected to a +5 source, on 11 of the connections on the 50 pin side. The explanation is that some signals are open collector driven, and thus you need 2200 Ohm pull up resistors. Does anyone know what the deal is, and is this really necessary, or just a nice idea that you can usually ignore... -Lawrence LeMay PS: The terak drive is a SSSD shugart, and it has a 40 pin external connector on the case (they dont bother connecting the first 10 pins).

27 years

3
2
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More odd things: HP150

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Karl Maftoum <karlm(a)blitzen.canberra.edu.au> wrote: > be able to tell me what "Power-on error 1000" means? and how to test out > the touchscreen? Joe thinks that that is "batteries dead", and I can't remember. One other thing you may want to do, assuming this is the sort of 150 with a 9-inch (~23cm) screen, is to get a can of compressed air and blow the dust out of the touchscreen sensor holes -- part of the power-on self-test checks out the touchscreen (if present) and if some of the sensors don't see the IR light it will fail with some other code (F000? -- it's been a long time!). The computer will continue to work (maybe even the touchscreen will!) after this though. Yeah, there's also a 150 with a 12-inch screen that is tiltable. That is a 150C aka Touchscreen II and it has later ROMs that know about more devices. I don't really know how to tell the difference between a 150A, a 150B, and a 150A with the later B ROMs (yes an upgrade was available). -Frank McConnell

27 years

4
3
0 0

More odd things: HP150

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 01:27 AM 4/15/99 +1000, you wrote: > >Today I dusted off the HP150 I picked up the other week, when I saw it I >actually believed it was only a terminal, but it had a HP-IB interface >which made me pick it up. Discovering that it is a non-IBM compatable 8088 >based machine with a touch-screen was nice :-) Not having any drives with >it renders it useless as a computer, but I am interested in getting it >working as a touch screen terminal, does anyone have the docs for this? or >be able to tell me what "Power-on error 1000" means? The N-cell batteries in the back are dead and it's lost it's CMOS settings. and how to test out >the touchscreen? There are built-in tests. I don't have my manual handy so I can't tell you exactly how to get to them but they're in the menu at the bottom of the screen. I have some floppy and hard drives and prnters that will work with the 150 if you're interested. I have docs and software for it too but I don't have time to make copies. Joe > >Megan: I haven't forgotton about the VSV-11, I have holidays next week so >I'll fire it up and see if it still works for you, been a busy fortnight >:-) > >Cheers >Karl > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > >Karl Maftoum >Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia > >Email: k.maftoum(a)student.canberra.edu.au > >

27 years

2
1
0 0

Vintage Computer Festival Announcement!

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

At 01:52 PM 4/14/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >October 2-3. If you don't come you'll wake up on Monday, October 4th, >with much regret. If we had any sort of advertising budget I'd suggest that people who don't want to keep their non-Y2K compliant computers (say pre-1989) should bring them to give away at the swap meet portion :-) --Chuck

27 years

1
0
0 0

Software collectors list

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> > As I understand the charter (and please correct me), this list is for the > discussion of any computer-related item over 10 years old. This includes > hardware, software, peripherals, storage media, preservation, repair, etc. > > While I'm not particularly interested in old application software, I > don't think anyone would mind a discussion of it here. > > -tony > These old computers aren't much good without the software. I'd welcome the discussion as long as it's not the same old "Linux is great, MS sucks" rant. There are more appropriate places for that discussion. Personally, I found the PICK messages to be enlightning and informative. Discussions of that nature are a real asset to the group. Just my $.02 Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

27 years

2
1
0 0

Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY!

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

I think it is now safe to say that the State of Massachusetts is the enemy of Classic Computer enthusiasts everywhere! http://cnn.com/NATURE/9904/07/computers.potholes.ap/ "We want people to take those computers out of the attics, get them out of the landfills and make use of the good parts," said Rick Lombardi, spokesman for the department. "And God knows, we have plenty of potholes to fill in New England." This is sickening! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years

6
6
0 0

Several things

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Tony wrote: >> Tony said, on processor design, you can either have one flip-flop to each >> machine state (like a P850) or microcode. Again there are intermediate points. >> I claim you can do quite well by numbering the machine states in a suitably >> chosen binary code and having one flip-flop to each bit. Logic for changing >> flip-flops is often _easier_ than when you have one flip-flop per state. (I > > Although, of course, the advantage of one f/f per state is that you can't > get glitches when you decode the outputs of the flip-flops. Because you don't decode them, right? As Tony probably remembers, my final year project at university was a GPIB interface for a Trend papertape reader (no, it isn't finished yet - ten years on!). My original design used a flip-flop for each machine state in three state machines. I recently looked at using fewer flipflops. I recall one of the state machines had six states. Using three bits, one could define the two redundant states in such a way that this was also glitch-free. Additionally, one of the state variables was an input, not a flipflop... >> have done both designs for the same circuit BTW). If you put this logic into a >> ROM, this becomes in a sense a microcode ROM, but you can do it combinatorially >> as well... > > A ROM _is_ combinatorial logic. I don't want to get into a silly argument > over this, but I have great difficulty finding a conceptual difference > between a combinatorial circuit built from a pile of AND, OR and NOT > gates and the same circuit built (albeit using a lot more transistors) in > a ROM. To claim that a CPU using a ROM is microcoded but one with > _identical_ internal states using simple gates as the feedback logic > round the sequencer flip-flops is not is a very strange way of thinking > about things. Fair enough. Just another example of different places to draw boundaries, with grey areas in between. I would call the ROM version microcoded, and the hard wired version not, because the ROM version contains CODE. (I would agree that the two machines are equivalent, one implemented using a store of (micro-) code and the other using gates.) But your view is equally valid. Perhaps this displays your hardware background and my more software-based upbringing. To show how grey this is, if you use a ROM to implement the combinatorial logic for a flipflop-per-state machine, would you call the code in this ROM microcode? It performs that function, viz. to output signals based on the machine state which control the operation of the machine including the selection of the next state. For that matter, remember your example on this list a while back, using logic gates to implement Z80 instructions. > Well, I might accept it once I'd drawn out the full schematics and > figured out what it was going to do. The problem of what happens if it > fails is another matter, though. As I said time and again, the time to > try a different braking technique is _not_ when the car is skidding all > over the place on a normal road. I'm not convinced the braking technique is different, though. I would generally try to brake thus: brake only just not hard enough to skid. If skid occurs, start pumping. I claim this applies to both sorts of car, but skid is less likely to occur with ABS. I read once (in a sci-fi novel) about a braking system where the brake for each wheel derived hydraulic pressure from a turbine on that axle. ABS wasn't the issue there, but I claim this system is passive and intrinsically anti-lock. It also has the advantage that a failure on one wheel doesn't affect the rest of the vehicle (though with only a small number of wheels, as in a car, this may be a problem). I wonder if something of this nature could be made to work usefully for ABS... Philip.

27 years

2
1
0 0

8" drive on a pc controller

by bill＠chipware.com

I did the same thing for an OSI system a few months ago. Look in the list archive. In brief: 1) using the second set of pinouts in the comp.os.cpm faq worked best for me. 2) build your converter on a Radio Shack Experimenters board (part no. 276-168B). Works very well. 3) use 22disk version 1.31 or earlier. Newer versions have timing problems with 8 inchers.

27 years

2
1
0 0

OT: VAX 4000/300

by cstone＠pobox.com

Hello. This 4000/300 has been dominating my computer room for a while, and I love how it looks, but it'd be great if it worked. The boot-diagnostic LED on the inside panel is stuck at 'F'. I don't have a field service manual, so I don't know the exact meaning. I've checked all of the boards inside to make sure they're snug inside, but no luck. Nothing shows up on a terminal hooked up to the MMJ jack. The drives seem to power up. Anybody have any ideas? I'd love to have another VAX running here. Thanks in advance. -- <cstone(a)pobox.com>

27 years

2
1
0 0

Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<boards? My strategy was this: < 1.) Debug the chassis. < 2.) Install components from a working 8/M. < 3.) Replace componets from the working 8/M with questionable < components. < 3a.) If the replaced component failed: Fix it. < 3b.) If the replaced component worked: Move to the next one. This is a good plan. Pay attention to debug the chassis though as there can be latent bugs like bad connectors. <BTW, the "best" tool I've found for working on PDP-8s is the Radio Shack <scope probe. Its more than fast enough to look at the signals. I suspect a <Logic Dart would be better but I've not had enough funds for that toy yet. For the PDP-8 any cheap logic probe will do if it can see 50nS pulses. or you can make one with 7404, a oneshot (7412x) and three leds. the oneshot is to strecth the fast ones to light a led. Allison

27 years

2
1
0 0

Description of 11/44 Installed Board Set

by hhacker＠home.com

First, thanks for the references. I will look into the "apparently hidden board" in a day or two. For now, I have some of the information that I need regarding the 11/45, thanks to those on this list. As with the 11/45 listing, these are readability oriented, given R to L. The 11/44 had this set: (all numbers begin with M, save the G7273) 7090 empty 7093 7094 7095 7096 empty 7098 unsure of occupancy of this slot 8743 empty empty 7982 7273, in the top two thirds, with 7297 in the lower third of this slot 7297 7295 7294 5904, these three are located in the middle third of the slot 5904 5904 9300 unsure of occupancy of this slot empty 9202, in top third, and 7258 in bottom two thirds of the slot some Emulex card unsure of occupancy of this slot 9302, in top third, and some Emulex in bottom two thirds of the slot The tape drive for this unit is a TS11. How much power should I expect to supply in order to run the CPU, TS11, two RM02's (with a whopping 67MB capacity, and at this size, we'll never run out of available storage), and the terminal? Do I need the services of an electrician? William R. Buckley

27 years

3
2
0 0

More odd things: HP150

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 10:18 AM 4/14/99 -0700, Sellamou wrote: >I don't know about Australia, but here in the States the 9121 drives are >fairly common at ham fests and surplus shops. Someone may correct me but >I believe this is the type of drive that will work with the HP150. Yes, that's correct. Some will work with the double sided 9122 drives also. It depends on which ROMs they have. Joe

27 years

1
0
0 0

Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!)

by cisin＠xenosoft.com

> > But what kind of computer would a satellite software company have been > > planning to run that program on before they ported it to the real world? > Hal ?? I can imagine some nutty fanatical CS prof (like me) saying, "If you want TRUE platform independence, then IGNORE all realities of the computer; write your program for an imaginary computer that would be perfect for your needs; then map the keyboard, etc. over to the layout that is present on the real world computer." Is that the way that it happened? Or was there some computer that actually HAD those goofy keys? (There were eventually some aftermarket add-on keyboards for the PC for WordPervert.) Please do NOT interpret this as a defence for MSWeird!

27 years

2
1
0 0

IBM Programmed Symbols Adapter

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> I just picked up an IBM 3270 Personal Computer Programmed Symbols Adapter >> card in the box. The box says that it's "an option that provides the >> storage and controls for displaying an APL font and six additional >> programmable fonts." It's a full length 8 bit card with two sockets on the >> to edge. There is also two jumpers in the box that I assume are used to >> jumper this card to another card. I didn't get any instructions or >> software with it. Does anyone know how to use it or have instructions etc >> for it? >> >> Joe >> > That sounds like a card which could enable my otherwise useless IBM > monitor meant for the 3270XT. There was a previous discussion on this > machine a while back. I think there were something like 5 cards in the > total array which didn't leave much for peripherals in the XT. On the > other hand I might be thinking of the Epson QX-10 Valdocs :^)) Like Sam, I think of three cards in this connection, but I also recall that not all machines had all cards. The 3270 card may not have been the same card as the display adaptor... On the display side, there was a display card, which may or may not have been part of the terminal card. Without it, you can't drive the 5272 monitor, I'm afraid. In addition, you could get the All Points Addressable (APA) card, which emulated the CGA graphics modes (but note that the 5272 only displays 8 colours), and the PS card, which you have, which emulated the graphics and programmable character set modes of the 3279 terminal. I'm afraid the card on its own won't be of much use... Philip.

27 years

2
1
0 0

More odd things: HP150

by karlm＠blitzen.canberra.edu.au

Today I dusted off the HP150 I picked up the other week, when I saw it I actually believed it was only a terminal, but it had a HP-IB interface which made me pick it up. Discovering that it is a non-IBM compatable 8088 based machine with a touch-screen was nice :-) Not having any drives with it renders it useless as a computer, but I am interested in getting it working as a touch screen terminal, does anyone have the docs for this? or be able to tell me what "Power-on error 1000" means? and how to test out the touchscreen? Megan: I haven't forgotton about the VSV-11, I have holidays next week so I'll fire it up and see if it still works for you, been a busy fortnight :-) Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum(a)student.canberra.edu.au

27 years

2
1
0 0

stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51 /4

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> > Then there was the Tektronix 'almost 6800' used in the 4052, etc. It was >> > a board of 2901's, etc and ran an instruction set that was almost upwards >> > compatible with the 6800 used in the 4051 (IIRC the DAA instruction was >> >> The moto 6800 was protoed using 2901s. It would only need two. > > The Tektronix used 4 2901's and was actually a 16 bit processor (for > address calculations, etc). Just that user data was only calculated using > 2 of the chips ;-) Hey, Tony, why the winking smiley? That's no joke, it's really true! Four 2901s and a lovely 16bit architecture, and then they go and implement a 6800 on it. :-( :-( :-( Philip.

27 years

1
0
0 0

What if,... early PCs (was: stepping machanism

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> RS is colloquial for "Rat Sh-t" in Oz, They don't market under that name > here, but as Tandy or Micronta. > (Accurate product description though isn't it?) :-) In the UK they are also generally known as Tandy. RS is a big company (originally Radio Spares) selling electronic components to the trade. Philip.

27 years

1
0
0 0

VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Me, too, but you don't know my dad... He has his computer in the living room, with the screen facing the window, and he says that he wants it to look nice when it's booting (don't_ask)... I think he deleted the spare one, too. I did a search, and can't find it anywhere. Either the computer didn't come with a copy of the CD on the HD, or my dad deleted the copy, because I can't find that, either. I told him he'd be better off to just put DOS back on the thing.... -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Braun <nerdware(a)laidbak.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 5:26 PM Subject: Re: VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen I'd be thankful. Most people, myself included, use TweakUI to make it go away.... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

27 years

2
1
0 0

OT: VAX 4000/300

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Hello. This 4000/300 has been dominating my computer room for a while, >and I love how it looks, but it'd be great if it worked. > >The boot-diagnostic LED on the inside panel is stuck at 'F'. I don't have a >field service manual, so I don't know the exact meaning. I've checked all >of the boards inside to make sure they're snug inside, but no luck. Nothing >shows up on a terminal hooked up to the MMJ jack. The drives seem to >power up. This means that the DC OK signal on the backplane isn't being asserted. If the Q-bus consists of more than one box chained together, this typically means that at least one of the boxes' power supplies either isn't working or has a sick DC OK signal. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years

1
0
0 0

Description of 11/44 Installed Board Set

by hhacker＠home.com

Mitch: Don't know if I have a printset. I will look into that question. Zane: The comment on storage capacity was intended to come across as sarcastic. Also, as a comment on the size of hard disk drives now being sold. I mean, I saw a 20GB IBM (I believe) for under $350.00US at Fry's last week. William R. Buckey

27 years

2
1
0 0

Pink Screen of Death? (was: Re: Hallelujah!)

by fpp＠concentric.net

> Well, I don't know. However, MS Word/Windows and /Macintosh has a strange > option: to have large white letters on a blue background instead of black > on white. This has nothing to do with any color settings, and no other > colors can be used in a similar way. This may have classic reasons. Anyone > know? >Don't know the exact reason but that was the default color >combination of the DOS version of MS Word (and every day I use >the current version, I long for the old one). Well perhaps it is because the de-facto standard DOS wordprocessor was Word Perfect. Their system was default blue screen and white letters. A long long time ago in a system far far away Microsoft was just another software company and they 'adopted' WordPerfect's colors and emulated WP commands. Paul

27 years

3
3
0 0

Computer Storage

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

Dear All I am thinking of renting a building in which to store my computer collection, together with that of a friend who has gone to Canada [Bob Manners, for P850UG people]. The building is very simply constructed - single brick walls and sheet asbestos roof - and currently has no supply of electricity or gas, but appears fairly dry (at least at present). Do people on either of the two lists have suggestions for: What precautions should I take in storing computers here? Do I need to insulate / heat the building? Should I install a dehumidifier (I think I can get hold of one)? Do I need (for example) to wrap each computer up in plastic with a packet of silica gel? The rent is very cheap - L2 (about $3.30) per square foot per year, and the building is only 10 min walk from my house. With luck, this will mean that I shall soon have a house with room for me as well as my junk... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. **********************************************************************

27 years

9
13
0 0

Compupro and DG question

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Went scrounging again today. Picked up some good HP stuff. Also found a Compupro 8/16 chassis with no cards or top cover. Also found a Compupro Hard Drive Subsystem chassis. It had one 5 1/4" and one 8" floppy drive. The hard drive and top cover were gone. Is the 8/16 an S-100 chassis? Anyone need this stuff bad enough to pay shipping and a scalper's price for it? Also found a DG hard drive. Looks like a 14" in a clear cover. I think the model number was 3462. Looks too heavy to ship unless someone REALLY wants it. Joe

27 years

2
1
0 0

stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I knew somebody woudl come up with a good example. That 6809 code is probably the closest thing I've seen in a micro. The 8051 uses a similar approach, pointing to the table with the datapointer and uses the accumulator as an offset. It does make it a bit awkward passing a parameter in the accumulator, though. In this case, the accumulator is occupied by what's really the only value you'd want to pass anyway under the circumstances. They (DEC) did make the uVax-II as a chipset for interfacing to their BI-bus, I believe, so that might qualify as well. The DEC chipset probably didn't sell for what a 6809 costs, even the faster part, and certainly not the $0.86 I last saw on the 4MHz Rockwell 65C02. The 6502 and its scions save a clock tick every time they loaded an address because the indexing or whatever arithmetic could be done on the low byte while the high byte was being fetched, leaving the carry set or cleared as was required, for the arithmetic on the next byte as was appropriate. Note that the carry was generally irrelevant, as most instructions requiring indexing simply wrapped the PC, but not in all cases. I thing indexed mode addressing was a case where an index could cross a page boundary. The MOT processors could often do the same thing, but they needed to add a clock tick to order the bytes and another to propagate the carry if appropriate (I think). It wasn't that sort of hair-splitting I was after, but rather, a contrast between the simple, elegant instruction set of one processor, versus the not-so elegant instruction set of "the other" meaning the intel/zilog clan. I'm not surprised that it was in the 6809 that this instruction came up. The 6809 showed lots of promise at first, but once it was in hand, one clearly could see that it would be MUCH easier going with the MC68008 if one had to use an 8-bit bus. I never had the opportunity to write in a high-level language for the 6809, but I was told it should have been quite easy to write a high-quality efficient compiler for it because of its repertioire of instructions and addressing modes. I turned out literally tens of thousands of lines of assembler code for it and never used this feature, though. It's likely most of my code would have run on a 6802 or 6803 just as easily. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner <spc(a)armigeron.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 1:27 PM Subject: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk ][ drive (was Re: Heatkit 51/4 floppies) >It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: >> >> At the risk of becoming the resident infidel . . . >> >> The 6502, particularly in its later incarnation by Rockwell embodied the >> cleverness fostered by its earlier versions and the non-Intel family of >> processors. How the elegance of their instruction set became lost is a >> mystery to me. > > I've never been a real fan of the 6502, it seemingly geared more towards >embedded systems than for a general purpose computer. But that's just me >8-) > >> On a 65C02 from Rockwell (making the distinction because there were several >> CMOS 6502's, all slightly different) you load the input value into an index >> register and then jump, indexed indirect, to the routine which is >> appropriate for that pattern of inputs. This requires, then, that you have >> a table with 256 bytes, more correctly 128 words, with each word the >> address of the routine which is used to process the left-justified ASCII >> data. >> >> This is tremendously fast! It requires no STACK, and it requires only two >> instructions. Another way of doing this involves building a stack frame and >> loading the return address with a value looked up in a table, then executing >> a return. This can be done with any number of processors. On a Z-80 you >> can jmp HL, and I'm sure there are other neat ways of doing this simple >> thing. I've never seen anything more elegant than that simplistic sequence >> on the 65C02. How the MOTOROLA people let this go by the wayside in the >> design of their 6809, 6801, 68K family, and countless others puzzles me. >> I've not made an extensive study of other processors, but I have looked at a >> few. The only processor I've used which has a similar mechanism at its >> disposal is the 8051 core. It has a data register which can be used as an >> offset for a jump instruction. > > If I understand the problem correctly, then what you want can be done on >the 6809 as two instructions as well (okay, three, but the first one is only >there for setup): > > LDX #JMPTAB > MAIN: LDA UART > JMP [A,X] > > > As long as X is unchanged, your overhead is two instructions. Also, if >you want to use X for something else, you still have Y or U for use as well >(okay, you can use S, but then it gets a bit harder 8-) > > But if you want elegance, go with the VAX---one statement: > > caseb uart,0,255 > jmptab: .word c00 - jmptab > .word c01 - jmptab > > ; ... > > .word cff - jmptab > > And with this, you don't even have to jury rig a special UART. > > In fact, the VAX is about as elegant as they come---you have 16 general >purpose registers and the PC is one of them (R15). Not only that, but all >addressing modes work on all instructions---it's very regular and with some >practice you can probably end up reading hex dumps directly. It's a very >nice assembly language. > >> Now, I doubt that anything that simple can be used to discriminate between >> what's "best" and what's not, but it's for certain that it's a nice feature >> not available on the 6809. I used the 6809 extensively while I was in the >> aerospace industry, and found it fairly friendly. BUT, it still is >> relatively slow, as compared with processors of the same generation from >> sources clever enough to arrange the bytes the other way around in memory so >> you didn't have to fetch and the discard a high byte when there wasn't one. >> Fortunately, many tasks don't require a really fast processor. > > I don't follow. You either care about a 16-bit quantity, or you don't, >but I may be biased---my first CPU was a 6809 and when I switched to the >Intel x86 architecture, I didn't like the little endianess of it at all, but >I never found the bigendianess to be a real problem. > > -spc (Then there's the ARM ... ) > >

27 years

4
3
0 0

Big Iron

by mbg＠world.std.com

I've got the pictures of the KS10 systems up on my web page... For anyone interested... http://world.std.com/~mbg/home_systems.html#ks10s to read a little about it.... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

1
0
0 0

DG AViion stuff

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

Someone wanted stuff for the M88K Data General Aviion's running DGUX. There is a fair bit at this site.. http://ftp.avlib.clemson.edu/avlib/pub/88k/ Hope this helps Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104

27 years

2
2
0 0

Trenton Computer Festivalt

by museum＠techniche.com

Can either of you supply any details? Date? Times? Specific location? >> I'm thinking about attending the upcoming Trenton Computer Festival. >> Unfortunately, if I do go, I won't be able to make it until Sunday. Any >> opinions on whether or not the second day of the TCF is worth a two and a >> half hour drive? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Tom Owad > >In the old days it was bargain and dumpster dive day. >TCF was a lot like what the VCF sounds like. (Except with a mix of some of >the classic stuff with some of the newer computers.) > >PDP 8's, and PDP11's as well as S100 stuff was common. Now there's some >Sun, Vax, HP Unix stuff, some older S100, H89, H8. Some CP/M (rare) >some Macintosh and Apple II/III... But it's becoming more and more >a Windows and PC kind of show. > >I don't know what it'll be like this year with Ken Gordon running the show >on contract (but I fear the worst). > >Bill >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. >

27 years

2
1
0 0

TRW Swap & Vintage CompuCrawl(tm)

by jpl15＠netcom.com

A Reminder: Saturday, April 24th.. for all listmembers who will be in the Southern California area - The TRW Ham Radio and Electronics Swap Meet will be heald on the morning of the 24th, from 7:30 to 11:30, in the southernmost parking lots of the TRW plant in El Segundo, CA. From the 405 (San Diego) Freeway, take the Rosecrans exit west, go west on Rosecrans about 1 mile to the intersection of Aviation, then left at Aviation (under the Metrolink bridge)... proceed south on Aviation 1/2 mile, the swapmeet will be in the parking lots on the right, before Marine avenue. After the swapmeet, there will be the customary CoCo's Brunch 'n Brag, from noonish until one-ish. THEN: I will host a Vintage Computer Open House CompuCrawl. Listmembers and interested persons are invited to my place to look at / play with / make scurrilous jokes about my motley collection. I have four DEC machines running and a Pr1me 2550, as well as various micros, etc. This event will last until whenever Saturday night. Persons needing advance directions to my residence are encouraged to e-mail for directions. I *do* live in a rural area so directions are recomended. I believe some persons from outside the SoCal area expressed interest in showing up, so e-mail me privately for contact info. Cheerz John

27 years

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Sigh. Bringing up a PDP-8/M

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<OK... First thing is to clean out the backplane in the 8/m. Use a vacuum <cleaner to remove loose dust and then squirt isopropyl alcohol <(propan-2-ol) into the connectors. Dry it well before powering it up. Also make sure there are no shorts under the backplane to the outer case from foreign objest like screws. <Then, if it still doesn't halt, check the power supply. I can't remember <what the power good line will make the CPU do if it's in the wrong state, <but I don't think it forces the CPU to the RUN state (unlike the 11/45...) It does have power fail and if it's in the "wrong" state the machine it halted. Look for obvious stuff, shorted wires or other conductors (even on boards) and leads floating loose or misconnected. CHECK all three voltages because if any are missing it will do nothing intelligible. Allison

27 years

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VERY OT: Win'98 splash screen

by fpp＠concentric.net

>Me, too, but you don't know my dad... >He has his computer in the living room, with the screen facing the window, >and he says that he wants it to look nice when it's booting (don't_ask)... >I think he deleted the spare one, too. I did a search, and can't find it >anywhere. Either the computer didn't come with a copy of the CD on the HD, >or my dad deleted the copy, because I can't find that, either. >I told him he'd be better off to just put DOS back on the thing.... If he did not get the Windows CD then perhaps you have a bootleg copy of Windows. All new PC's have a CD copy and Microsoft certificate of authenticity.

27 years

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Restoration of an 11/34a

by mbg＠world.std.com

>You did remember to cut the NPG jumper on the slot that you stuck the >RL11 in, I hope... Thanks... I did forget (I've done mostly Qbus for quite awhile... so the UNIBUS specific stuff may slip my mind for a bit) >That's the most common 11/34 problem, assuming you're using an M9302 >terminator. You have a grant open somewhere (either you're missing an >continuity card or you've got an NPG jumper missing). THe M9302 then >asserts SACK, the CPU tries to remove the asserted grant line but can't, >and it locks up. Aha... right... I'll have to check the backplane... there were a number of boards in it, some were probably DMA devices... (as I said, it may take a little time for it to come back to me...) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years

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CLASSICCMP digest 734

by mtapley＠swri.edu

>From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> ... > There were several Forth machines done over the years, ... >Harris made one that was used quite >often for space applications because it was fast >and could run with smaller amounts of code ( a feature >of Forth ). Still makes, the RTX2010. The IMAGE mission that I'm working on will have three of them aboard, running 3 of the 6 instruments, when it lifts off in early 2000. - Mark

27 years

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WTB: TRIMM DA523-331

by jhfine＠idirect.com

I am not positive if this is the correct part number. Have you ever seen a PDP-11/34 top loading rack mounted box? About the same size! Also top loading. About 10 1/4" high and a 19" rack. BUT, this is for a Qbus back plane with at least 10 slots (there could be as many as 16). And I suspect that the first 3 slots may be ABCD like the BA23 box and the rest are AB/AB also like the BA23 box. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine

27 years

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Computer Storage

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What precautions should I take in storing computers here? < <Do I need to insulate / heat the building? Within bounds no. Most componenets will take 0-50C as commercial temperture range. Sharp changes in temperature are not beneficial so if cold leave it that way, if warm don't shock cool it. If you can stay within 10-40C there should be no problem. Electrolytic capacitors however, dry out of kept too hot for too long. <Should I install a dehumidifier (I think I can get hold of one)? Moisture is the enemy during the seasons where you get the greatest cyclic temperature changes. And most winters. <Do I need (for example) to wrap each computer up in plastic with a packet o <silica gel? If it's a sealed bag aroung the equipment, that works very well. the bag has to be sealed or the silica will saturate quickly. the silica can be dried in a warm oven to drive out the moisture and render it effective again. Also the package (system, box, rack) should be made vermin proof as insects can leave deposits and rodents can chew, nest or soil things. Allison

27 years

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Commodore vs Apple [WAS: Re: stepping machanism of Apple Disk

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<This must have varied significantly with geography. In Ontario, Canada, <where I grew up, Commodore was king, both at home and in schools. Most <schools' first computers were PETs, either alone or in clusters, followed I'd say so. I'd see one school district with TRS80 and the next one over apples or commies. Made teachers nuts. Allison

27 years

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<the relatively short memory access strobe, while I was talking about the <frequency at which they occur, as defined in the spec. I agree completely Yes so? Often the z80 is moving 16bits, with 8bit wide memory it's going to take several cycles. If it were a z280 that would be even more biased as it uses fewer "ticks" per cycle and the bus is 16bits wide. Counting ticks or whatever as I've repeatedly stated meaningless save for discussions of how memory is used and not who is faster. An aside at this point, the z280 runs different cycle timing as @4mhz would be the base z80 of the same speed and the z380 (in z80 native mode) beats that as the cycles have been shortend again. <personal. The fact remains, that the memory CYCLE is three clock ticks <long, as defined in the spec (though I haven't looked at it in 15 years or It is not and Like I said the spec is infront of me as I type. Worst case its 2. But that in itself is again meaningless. <so since I haven't yet unearthed my Zilog or Mostek data books) and if you <look at the pictures you saw with your logic analyzer, you should have see <two read pulses of whatever lenght they were, spaced at very nearly 750 ns <each time you saw the execution of an absolute jump, or any other <instruction which consists of an opcode followed by a 16-bit address. The <same is true of writes. They take one memory cycle, which is three clock <ticks long, for each byte, although the memory write strobe is a mite <shorter than the read strobe, IIRC, which I might not, but . . . Your memory is faulty. and that 750ns bumber is still meaningless. they only number for comparative purposes is the amount of time it takes to do an absolute jump. For Z80 @4mhz that will be 2.5us. It will require memory in the 250ns range to do it. <were inserted as they often were for M1 cycles. Nevertheless, commonly use <instructions were MUCH faster on the 2 MHz 6502, than on the 4 MHz Z-80. A 2mhz 6502 executes a 1byte (say INX) instuction in 2 machine cycles and that takes 1uS. A 4mhz INC B (any register) takes 4 z80 clocks at 4mhz... damm if that doesn't happen to be 1uS! Where is the speed difference? According to my book a 6502 absolute jump takes 3-5 cycles and in the 5 cycle case its 2.5 us. <probably measure three microseconds for those twelve clock ticks (T-states <which is EXACTLY how long a 1 MHz 6502 takes to do that. Hence, I conclud Exactly my point. The 6502 is not faster, it only marches to a different drummer. <I've concluded that most code I've seen underutilizes the internal resource <and overutilizes the external ones. Code like that favors processors with <more time-efficient use of the external resources. Hence, my assertion tha <there's reason to believe the 6502 at 2 MHz could outrun the 4 MHz Z-80 in <more or less typical code and in a more or less typical hardware No again. It can match the z80 and in some cases it's better or worse. <environment. Code written to make better than average utilization of the <internals of a Z-80 might fare better against equally well-written code on <6502. I'm comfortable with the reality that I'll probably never know for <certain. Since neither processor is particularly important these days, no <terribly important to me either. Agreed well written code is essential for either to do useful work. <None of this is really worth getting all excited about because, by the way <in spite of its "better" performance, (by my assessment) the 6502 didn't <accomplish more useful work on MY behalf, because I used a Z-80 running CP/ <every chance I got due to the abundance of really decent tools and office <automation software. Therein lies the key. A good system is not always defined by it's hardware. Systems are a combination of practical hardware and functional software. This account for why despite their flaws the TRS80, Apple II, Z80 CPM based as well as others florished. Most people didn't program 8080z806502ti990018028085680980886800065815 they ran basic or a word processor. the run on of part numbers was deliberate as to most people the cpu used was just a number. Allison

27 years

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