- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >> if you shop. >These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. "If the automobile had followed the same price-performance changes as the computer industry in the past 50 years, a Rolls Royce would today cost $4.95, get two million miles to the gallon, go 50000 MPH, and explode once a day, killing everyone inside." -- Robert X. Cringley -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 11:31 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >That's Doug Salot's (Yowza) creation. What about his assertion don't you >agree with? I think he's right on the mark. I became mightly confused when I searched my bookmarks for "classic computer" and found <http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/faq.txt>, which was 404, so I trimmed off "faq.txt" and tried again, which 404'd, and then thought <http://www.yowza.com/> must be some kind of parody that Doug assembled, but now I'm not sure. Did he sell the domain? - John

26 years, 10 months

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HP Apollo questions

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I was scrounging today and found a nice looking HP Apollo 400 in a surplus place. The owner didn't know anything about it but I dug around a bit more and found a monitor, mouse and keyboard that worked with it. Connected everything together and fired it up. It booted up with no problems but no one knows the pass word. Does anyone know how to bypass that? It's a model A2536A with a HP model A1097C monitor and HP/Apollo model A1630 keyboard. Can anyone tell me more about these? I know nothing about the Apollo computers. Any idea how usefull this thing is or what it's worth? Joe

26 years, 10 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

One aspect of this matter I'm already seeing ignored is the COST. That so-called FIRST personal computer which cost $300 in the early '50's, for example, cost quite a lot of money. In the '50's, it was unusual for anyone to earn $100 a week. A mid-priced Chevrolet cost less than $2000 and $10 a week was plenty for a week's groceries for a family of 4. Not even DEC's so-called personal computers were competitive enough to interest an industry professional. The DEC mini's weren't even a good buy as they became obsolete. I doubt DEC equipment was EVER used where there wasn't a third party present who profited from its use. That doesn't mean they weren't appropriate and suitable for a wide range of uses, but it certainly doesn't characterize a personal computer. Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better if you shop. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 3:21 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > >> This seems to be a well researched trail leading up to the Simon, IMO. > >Yes, Doug did a fantastic job. > >> However, any good guess as to how many Simons were actually made and >> successfully run from the over 400 plan sets sold? Any known to exist now? > >Doug is still looking for one, but he and another local Doug are looking >into building one. They've acquired a nice pile of relays and are hoping >to have one built by VCF 3.0 for exhibit. > >> To try to solve that First Microcomputer question, a set of attributes must >> first be set just like the set was to determine the 1st PC as shown in the >> above URL. Methinks that will be a bit troublesome as nobody seemed to >> agree on that during the last go-around of discussing the 1st Microcomputer >> here awhile back. > >Well, first what? First computer built around a microprocessor? That >would probably be Intel's development machines. Or should it include an >integrated CRT and keyboard? Or did it just have to have a serial >interface for a terminal? Or are lights and switches good enough for >output and input? > >Arguing firsts is mostly pointless because people have a problem agreeing >on the definition. I vote for the F14 CADC computer, since it was built >around what could be considered a "microprocessor" and was in production >and flying in the F14 in 1970. > >http://www.microcomputerhistory.com > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

26 years, 10 months

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More 3rd Party DEC boards

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> Versatec > PDP-11 Matrix control > This is a dual height board, but I'm pretty sure it's for a UNIBUS system, > thanks to the wierd connector sticking out the side of it for another board. Yeah, connectors out the side almost always signals non-Q-bus. This is part of the set that runs (surprise!) a Versatec plotter - think of it as a really labor-intensive laserprinter and you won't be too far off. >DILOG DQ342 >Quad Height, has a 34 and a 10-pin connector I think this is a MSCP MFM disk controller (there was also a floppy-only version.) >SCD-RQD11/EC >Quad Height, 4 20-pin connectors, 1 34-pin, and 1 10-pin. 3 LED's 2 green, >1 red. I think it's a Sigma ESDI controller, based on doing a DejaNews >search, it also looks like it _might_ be basically a rebadged WQESD >controller, since the one article talks about WOMBAT. Is this correct, and >can I just use my WQESD manual for it? The WQESD is the same as the SCD-RQD11/EC is the same as the Qualogy equivalent is the same as the DSD equivalent is the same as the American Digital Equivalent... *All* designed by Webster out of Australia. >Plessey >P/N 705920-100A >Quad Height, RAM board Count the chips, identify their type, and you know the size! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

Since we've not seen any code for the 6502 yet, this may not be a problem, but since Apple didn't exactly make it easy to exchange diskettes with other systems, how would you propose to transfer a file, binary or otherwise between systems? Though I haven't gotten into it, I figured on cross-assembling from a PC to a PROM. That makes it easy for me, but how will others do it? It's enough of a problem transferring files from, say, a CP/M box running a Z-80, since PC's don't read 8" disks. How should this be dealt with? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)netwiz.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 3:17 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >>> Some things in this contest that sound reasonable to me; >> >>> Input and output are to memory resident buffers. >> >>> Inline code is too boring, and subrountine calling too important, so the >>> "task" should require perhaps modules; maybe make the contest half a dozen >>> subroutines which get called from a contest defined main program (using >>> some typical non asm language like C or pascal). >> >>> Contest submissions could be a simple binary file, file length, predefined >>> jump table for subroutines, the actual code. Some third party, can run the >>> code and time it on the hardware of their choice. >> >>Nice, but with these things, like internas of the system for input/output, >>binary and similarities, you tie again all down to a single system to >>use - we loose the idea of a cross platform competition where only basic >>processor features are measured (see also the subject). > >I don't see what you mean. By setting some basic format for the file >structure you make it PORTABLE, not restricted. Each target system then can >read the common format and arrange it however is best suited to that target >system prior to execution of code. > >

26 years, 10 months

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Wang further info.

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Here are the model numbers/descriptions of the Wang system I mentioned back up the list aways: Wang VS7110 with 16MB mem (2) SMD disk controllers (3) 928 Workstation/Printer controllers (1) Multiline TC controller (2) 2295V Disk Storage Cabinets First one: (1) 75MB RSD removable (1) 454 MB SMD fixed (2) 314 MB SMD fixed Second one: (2) 454 MB SMD fixed (2) 5573-1 300 LPM Band Printers (2) third-party terminals. A note attached to the inventory sheet says that the CPU will not IPL due to bad disk in console SCU; disk cabs power up and pass self test. Printers not tested, no cables. ------------- PLEASE NOTE that I am awating the last corporate 'OK' on this stuff pending our Purchasing Department finding out that, in fact, no one is going to buy the gear. No one. Trust me folks.... ;} I imagine I will know Real Soon, because the stuff has to moved prior to May 10th. Again, I am listing this for those who need/love Wang gear... it's not for me. If there is no reasonably positive interest, I will most likely turn it down, and thus it will hit the skip. I can store it for a while if need be. Shipping is on you... (Why couldn't it have been an 11/780???) Cheers John

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

In reality, I recall that though TI didn't market their products the way Intel does now, they did market their home computers back in the early '80's. What's more they advertised their electronic toys more than all the other fellows you've mentioned combined. The TI salesman called me as often as any of the others, if not more. I was, after all, a user of many of their products, since they had more than any other single manufacturer, and their efforts to make their products accessible to small developers were a great help. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 4:51 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing ><Now I know that many people didn't consider it a reasonable computer, but ><the TMS-9900 did make a memorable appearance in the TI-99/4/4A of blessed ><memory - 16K if I recall correctly. Once you added a PEB, RS-232 card, 32 ><memory card, 2 HH DS/SD floppies and an Extended Basic cartidge, it was a ><fine computer. > >Not quite true. There were the TI business systems, the ti990-xxx boards >that could be systems or used as SBCs and after the TI99/4a there was the >Geneve system that was marketed. Another was a ti9900 board for S100. >Also Technico systems had both the basic Super starter system as a SBC >and expansion boards for it as well. > >It didn't make the impact because TI didn't market it like intel, moto or >Mos tech.. Actually they didn't market it at all until the were an also >ran. Shame too as it was the fist 16bit single chip and vastly better than >8086 considering it was 4 years earlier. >Allison >

26 years, 10 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Does anyone have one of those first 4004 terminals that started everything < <Were they even built? They were calculators. Allison

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<My first thought was something like a small compass near each bit. I want <to avoid lights since I think they are less engaging, less an indicator <that something has happened. Ideally this should be an attractive looking <toy, that sparks curiousity. The ferrite would not show enough external field change to be a reliable indicator. However when the wires were driven they indeed would! Allison

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What might a drop of ferrofluid do if placed on a core? Show the fields induced by the wires and some of the remnant field (no current magnetic material is perfect magnetic conductor). Allison

26 years, 10 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Now, I have a decmate III, and that looks like a microcomputer to me. In effect it's the same damm thing. While the PDP-8 I'd concede is a mini of micro size it was not a single or multiple "chip based" system. That has to wait in the commercial realm for the 8008. <Exactly, yes I do define a microcomputer in those terms. it was a new <'era' in computing, just as the switch from mainframes to minicomputers Figures, retro revisionism. <microcomputers. One possible observation is that they cannot be <mounted in a 19" rack (as many minicomputers can be). Sure, you <can get a minicomputer in a non-rack mount version, but show <me the person or company that bought rack mounted apple ][ <microcomputers... Well the Altair, IMSAI, and even apple were available as rack cased and mounted as such. For the real rack king the OSI systems as most were rack frames in various forms. Again a rack doe not make it a mini as the LSI-11 was available as non rack and rack systems. The non rack would be PDT-11/1xx series and the racked would be the LSI-11/03. For the moment I'll for get the PRO3xx, Qbus and the Unibus systems that used the F (2-3chips) or J11 (one chip) versions of the PDP-11 mini. <Do we at least agree that there was a microcomputer era that <started either near the mid 70's or early 80's (depending on how <you define microcomputer)? If not, what do you call the change Microcomputer in 71 at the latest with the commercial deliver of the 8008. (there were non commercial systems before that). By the 80s the arguement was form not mini/micro as they were litereally the same in most cases. <that occured at that time. And what was the first computer or <computers that started ushering in that change (even though at the <time, they didnt realize it was a significant trend)? Well, I'd easily identify as for as 5 major trends and likely more in the span from the intro from the pdp-8 through the start of the 32bit era. Your forgetting I worked for NEC from 79 through 83 and before that TANDY Computer(z80), Hazeltine(8080 and 8048 in terminals), Automated processes (8008). I was one of the first 1000 (SN#200) to buy an Altair. If anything I not only realized the eras I was out there making them! Allison

26 years, 10 months

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OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 14/04/99 16:32:06 Eastern Daylight Time, max82(a)surfree.com writes: << Actually, you might see 486s also. I spent half an hour last saturday smashing all kinds of computers, from PS/2 Model 30 to DEC 486. They were being trashed, and we decided to have some fun while we were at it. We stomped on them till they were practically pancakes (the drives had been removed). It was quite fun :) >> that was a rather stupid thing to do. All of those computers could have been of some use, if not to just be salvaged for parts to revive other computers.

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by wrm＠ccii.co.za

Hi all My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. <everyone>Hi Wouter!</everyone> :-) From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >I saw one ad for an >SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html Warning: pages in progress! Wouter

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Now I know that many people didn't consider it a reasonable computer, but <the TMS-9900 did make a memorable appearance in the TI-99/4/4A of blessed <memory - 16K if I recall correctly. Once you added a PEB, RS-232 card, 32 <memory card, 2 HH DS/SD floppies and an Extended Basic cartidge, it was a <fine computer. Not quite true. There were the TI business systems, the ti990-xxx boards that could be systems or used as SBCs and after the TI99/4a there was the Geneve system that was marketed. Another was a ti9900 board for S100. Also Technico systems had both the basic Super starter system as a SBC and expansion boards for it as well. It didn't make the impact because TI didn't market it like intel, moto or Mos tech.. Actually they didn't market it at all until the were an also ran. Shame too as it was the fist 16bit single chip and vastly better than 8086 considering it was 4 years earlier. Allison

26 years, 10 months

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more chording keyboards

by max82＠surfree.com

Hi, I still haven't built a chording keyboard, but I'd like to know, what are its advantages/disadvantages over a regular one? I realize the general differences, what I'm looking for is 'it would be great for typing because.., it would be awful for data entry because....' --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power

26 years, 10 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Upon the date 02:12 AM 4/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > -- snip -- >> To try to solve that First Microcomputer question, a set of attributes must >> first be set just like the set was to determine the 1st PC as shown in the >> above URL. Methinks that will be a bit troublesome as nobody seemed to >> agree on that during the last go-around of discussing the 1st Microcomputer >> here awhile back. > >Well, first what? First computer built around a microprocessor? That Yes, 'first what?' That's pretty much my point in writing that paragraph above because there's no apparently clear concensus on the set of attributes. >would probably be Intel's development machines. Or should it include an Intel's devel machines would be a logical choice if one holds to the first microcomputer machine in question using a microprocessor. After all, since Intel is the "inventor" of the uP and the Busicom calculator product was probably not "programmable", then the first ones could have been from Intel. However, your F14 CADC computer choice below holds the most water when considering uP-based machines. Therefore, as a result of recently disclosed confidential information as many of us had already seen months ago on the microcomputerhistory.com site, the MP944 chipset-based computer should indeed be considered the first microcomputer. Ultimately, an etymology of the word 'microcomputer' should be undertaken with respect to its' being attached to a *particular* machine, whether uP-based or not, in order to answer the question clearly. I suggest we start there. What does the OED say? >integrated CRT and keyboard? Or did it just have to have a serial >interface for a terminal? Or are lights and switches good enough for >output and input? > >Arguing firsts is mostly pointless because people have a problem agreeing >on the definition. I vote for the F14 CADC computer, since it was built >around what could be considered a "microprocessor" and was in production >and flying in the F14 in 1970. > >http://www.microcomputerhistory.com Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

26 years, 10 months

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The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Yes, the dual 5 1/4" Andromeda drive has a single 34 pin connector in the back. What might it be worth to you? Paxton

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by clintw＠colorado.cirrus.com

> From allisonp(a)world.std.com Wed Apr 21 17:10:05 1999 > Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > Content-Length: 367 > X-Lines: 15 > > <How long does core stay magnetized without power? > > Years. > > <How many bytes of battery-backed RAM are there in a typical PC? > > Not a lot usually something in the 32-128byte range, maybe more. > > <Haven't there been contemporary memory devices that use nano-scale > <cores, to eliminate the battery needs and radiation sensitivity of RAM? > > Not that I'm aware of. > > Allison > > Actually, there are a few companys making FRAMs. Essentially they use a small amount of magnetic material to provide non-volatile storage. They may even be core shaped :) clint

26 years, 10 months

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Wang word proc Free in SoCal

by jpl15＠netcom.com

I have been offered a largish Wang word processor system... a washing-machine size CPU and two slightly smaller 8" floppy units, several terminals and two printers... no doc or software at this time. I will get model numbers etc. when I actually get to spend some time poking around the units. My question before I actually commit to saving this from the dumpster is: anybody want it??? I sure don't... They're *big* and heavy, so shipping is definately a factor, unless you want to arrange to pick it up, in which case there is a loading dock available. Cheers John PS: TRW Saturday.....

26 years, 10 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Then the Cromemco Z-2 series was designed specifically for rack mount >applications... (I have an example of that one in my collection - >currently in a rack) B^} The catalogs usually pictured the Z-2 in a nice wooden office cabinet - often an integral part of a desk. In the field, certainly, open metal racks make much more sense :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

That 8073 from National is in my inventory, though I don't recall its being an SC/MP. It's probably something, though, and I somehow doubt it's an 8048-series component. Dick -----Original Message----- From: KFergason(a)aol.com <KFergason(a)aol.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:59 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >In a message dated 4/21/99 6:09:47 PM Central Daylight Time, >allisonp(a)world.std.com writes: > >> <Name a non-homebrew SC/MP based computer. >> <(note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to >> <the old magazines) >> >> Not including the three sold by National Semi or the ones that used the >> 8073 SC/MP with a internal rom tiny basic(also sold be national)??? >> >> Allison >> > >Yes, not including any by NS. I know they produced boards, >just like most manufacturers did. > >DigiKey had something in their catalogs, but its been so long, I >don't remember exactly what it was. (maybe just reselling the NS stuff?) > >Kelly > >

26 years, 10 months

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homemade computer for fun and experience...

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm going to have to take an opposing position once again. I'd never have given up on terminals, having invested hundreds of kilobucks in them over time. My recollection, biased, I'm sure, by the ten years of trouble-free, experience, thanks to being terminal-free is that they were more trouble than I ever expected. Since I stopped using terminals, I've not once been unable to use a software package because I didn't have the right terminal. Whether it's VMS or WORDSTAR, it is a royal pain if the hardware I've got won't work. Terminals are different. They behave differently, given various commands. Yes, ANSI terminals are more or less compatible, but they won't work with the applications I used to use under CP/M at all. I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I had to have terminals around as long as I did. A keyboard interface is quite straightforward. A video display is not. I agree that there's reason why so many computers used terminals, but now that we don't have to do that, I propose that we not limit ourselves to what little a terminal can do. See . . . there are reasons NOT to use a terminal. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 3:01 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >> >> While I agree fundamentally in that you really don't have to have graphic >> output capabilities, to wit, I did without it for over 30 years of computer >> use, I don't believe there's any reason to favor the terimnal over the >> direct-mapped monochrome video display. It's nominally a 2000 character > >A few reasons. It's a lot easier to add a serial port than add a video >display/keyboard system (I've done both, many times). And Tim is right : >Serial terminals are probably a lot more universal than whatever flavour >of monitor that you pick. > >> as for what you find difficult to get fixed . . . (a) who cares about fixing >> a serial card? Another costs $3. (b) pre-vga monochrome cards and monitors > >I care. Particularly when I need the darn thing over a weekend, it's >failed on Saturday night, and I have a junk box full of chips, but no >spare boards... I also care about keeping the landfills empty. > >And I specificially mentioned the IBM Async card for a reason. It has a >current loop I/O facility. AFAIK none of the cheap clones - the ones >you'll get for $3 - have this facility. Adding it wouldn't be hard given >a schematic and a well-stocked junk box, but what's the point? By the >time you've traced out the schematic and made the mods you might as well >have fixed the original card. > >Suffice it to say that I have full schematics of this PC and intend to >keep on fixing it properly... > >> abound at the thrift stores. Keyboards do as well. (c) so long as hard disk >> drives of the ST506 variety still abound in the thrift stores, the > >Those drives are getting fairly hard to find in the UK :-( > >> controllers will too. I passed on an 'AT box a week ago, which had a VGA >> card, a 200+ MB eide 3.5" 1/3-height hard disk, and much of the usual stuff > >You're missing the point. If I have my data on an ST506 drive and the >controller fails, the last thing I need is an EIDE drive, however big it >is. I need a controller, or the chips to fix my existing controller. I >want to get my data back. > >> I figure, if I can't replace it with something similar, then I'll replace it >> with something more current. > >Maybe... You might find you're replacing an awful lot of the machine, >though... ISA is on the way out, remember.. > >Personally, I'll stick to machines that I can maintain properly (no board >swapping!). And _I_'ll decide when I want to upgrade. > >-tony >

26 years, 10 months

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SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Aaron, Got it open. It has a Exabyte EXB-8505 drive in it. Don't know what I'll use it for. I haven't even been able to get my SUN IPC to boot yet. Thanks for the help. Joe At 08:39 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > >Simple, once you know the trick. You have to push in hidden tabs through >the holes in the side of the case. Stick a straightened paper-clip in the >third hole from the back, second row down and lift the case off from the >rear... > >BTW, if for some reason you need a replacement drive for it, let me know >(I've got a couple doing dust-collection duty somewhere). > >Cheers, > >Aaron > > >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Aaron, >> >> OK now how the hell do I get it out to find out what's in there? >> >> Joe >> >> At 01:27 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >The 411 is just the box. Mine has an Archive Viper QIC-150 in it that I >> >use with an Emulex MT-02 controller. You'll have to take a look inside to >> >see what you've got in there. Under SunOS, you should be able to access >> >this as device st[devnum]. Check the man page for "st" for some more info. >> > >> >Aaron >> > >> >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: >> > >> >> I just picked up a SUN model 411 tape drive PN 595-1711-03. I can't find it >> >> in the SUN FAQ , does anyone have any info on it? >> >> >> >> Joe >> >> >> > >> > >> > >

26 years, 10 months

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VME? related to College search.

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm quite certain that VME predates the 1983 date you've specified. I made/sold a wirewrap card for VME back in the early portion of 1982 at which time I was a latecomer to the VME Bus Manufacturers' Group. Mostek and Motorola both had complete systems available for 68K development and such. Not much effort had been put into making it useful for anything else, but FORCE Computers, apparently a German company with outlets here in the US, had a complete set of boards for nearly any common purpose and some kind of OS available. at that time. BICC-Vero made cardcages, backplanes, and wire-wrap boards for the VME of the time, and several inependent card makers were making the little "single-connector" cpu and interface boards for embedded applications in 1982. This happened to be at the same time as my last divorce, so I have realatively good recall due to association with other events of the time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:18 AM Subject: Re: VME? related to College search. >Upon the date 12:07 AM 4/22/99 -0400, jpero(a)cgocable.net said something like: >>What's about this VME and programming on that 68000 type? > >If I understand your question, the VMEbus is a 32-bit microcomputer bus >which is used primarily in industrial computers. Certain Sun products also >used it but I defere to those experts for further Sun comment. > >VMEbus was invented by John Black and others at Motorola in 1983. Came from >the now-obsolete VersaModule bus structure Moto had since I think the >mid-70's. Basic form factor was the Eurocard with DIN 46xxx connector >(can't recall DIN number at moment). Hence, VMEbus = VersaModule Eurocard >bus. Quickly became a standardized bus protocol worldwide. > >Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers of hardware. Others >followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k >processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000 >RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus >module designs. > >A fairly recent extension of the VMEbus protocol, VME64, extends the bus to >64 bits. The physics community is a major user of VME64 nowadays. > >> >>Don't anyone have graphics of VME stuff like cages, cards, VME > >Start by looking at this URL from eg3 which has a good list of VMEbus >resources: http://www.eg3.com/indc/indcxvme.htm. > >VITA - The VMEBus International Trade Association, has a URL: >http://www.vita.com/ . You could find more info and links there. > >>equipments? And how common is this out in that canadian field? > >Should be as common as it was in the States as it was found usually in >embedded industrial control and data collection systems in factories, etc. >Of course, the PeeCee stuff replaced some installations if the user wanted >to move to or start his/her design using the Intel processor or go for a >design 'on the cheap and dirty' as VMEbus products and s/w could be a bit >pricey. Multibus I and II and, to a smaller extent, STDbus and G64 were >competition to VMEbus. > >> >>I see that in my college electronic engineering technology course >>info by Algonquin College in canada within Ottawa, Ontario. >> >>Other college St. Lawerence College offers same type of course >>but uses x86 and pc type circuits in their courses which in my >>opinion bit shortsighted and lacks "commerical" areas compared to >>Algonquin's. > >I agree. Algonquin is fine with including VMEbus and other industrial >busses in their course structure. PeeCee could be included but for critical >real time apps it should be stated that VMEbus and its board products and >OS's are one the several non-PeeCee systems which really shine. > >> >>Keep your thoughts freely flowing! > >Yeah, well the on topic ones are fine from us, but . . . ;) > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Since we've not seen any code for the 6502 yet, this may not be a problem, >but since Apple didn't exactly make it easy to exchange diskettes with other >systems, how would you propose to transfer a file, binary or otherwise >between systems? Though I haven't gotten into it, I figured on >cross-assembling from a PC to a PROM. That makes it easy for me, but how >will others do it? Easy: Run Kermit on both ends of the link. Kermit is available for everything from IBM mainframes to HP calculators, and has been the standard solution for decades for those of us who have to deal with diverse systems. See http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ for details. >It's enough of a problem transferring files from, say, a CP/M box running a >Z-80, since PC's don't read 8" disks. Huh? I've been doing this with 22Disk and/or Teledisk on PC-clones for over a decade. See http://www.sydex.com/ for details. See the comp.os.cpm FAQ for details about the cabling, and see my recent posts here or the discussions in comp.os.cpm about single-density FDC chips in PC clones if you need to read single-density formats on your PC-clone. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

That is really interesting! I was pretty disappointed when I got my first "kit" and found that, while it had provisions for a front-panel in its design, none was ever offered. I'm glad to know that there actually were such things. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 4:52 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing > >> My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. >> <everyone>Hi Wouter!</everyone> :-) > >Hi <howeverthisispronounced>, > >> >I saw one ad for an >> >SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >> >not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >> >was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >> >of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >> >ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > >> http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html > >CUTE! >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> take about 90VDC to light up, but after they light up they'll stay on >> until the voltage drops below 60VDC or so. Only problems are: >> >> 1. The thresholds can vary greatly from unit to unit. >> >> 2. The thresholds will vary depending on ambient light, as well. >Use pulse coupleing so each runs at it's range. Also I do have a basic >design for a TTT machine using neons and 2d21 thyratrons. >I feel personally that would be good for demonstrating some for the other >forms of logic used. Absolutely - a lot about logic, especially pulse-coupled logic, is there to be learned. >Then again someone would want that interfaced to PCI too. Hmm - there's enough loopholes in the PCI spec already, maybe we can sneak 90V logic levels in? :-). Tim.

26 years, 10 months

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Now OT: Re: Roman numerals

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>> > And no doubt some poor slave just finished chisling in all the closing >> > stock prices for the Roman Stock Exchange and some spelling weenie piped up >> > and said only, "You misspelled 18 on line 30 there." >> and said only, "You misspelled XVIII on line XXX there." >Now we know where his family went after there was no longer >a roman stock exchange :) OTOH, if we all used Roman Numerals for data storage still, there would be no Y2K problem due to "extra" digits! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

I just never considered a computer a useful tool if you couldn't use it until you rebuilt it (hardware or software). That was the case with the early TI home computer boxes. They had totally unexploited potential for a long time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:36 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could >> consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues >> home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for >> interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I >> didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an >> SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >> not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >> was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >> of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >> ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > >Richard, the rest of the world does not peer through the same blinders you have on. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

26 years, 10 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Upon the date 04:28 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: -- snip -- >Ok, you asked for it. > >http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml Thanls for the URL! > >This should answer the question "What was the first personal computer?" >once and for all. Well, that's certainly an understatement Sellam! This seems to be a well researched trail leading up to the Simon, IMO. However, any good guess as to how many Simons were actually made and successfully run from the over 400 plan sets sold? Any known to exist now? To try to solve that First Microcomputer question, a set of attributes must first be set just like the set was to determine the 1st PC as shown in the above URL. Methinks that will be a bit troublesome as nobody seemed to agree on that during the last go-around of discussing the 1st Microcomputer here awhile back. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<How long does core stay magnetized without power? Years. <How many bytes of battery-backed RAM are there in a typical PC? Not a lot usually something in the 32-128byte range, maybe more. <Haven't there been contemporary memory devices that use nano-scale <cores, to eliminate the battery needs and radiation sensitivity of RAM? Not that I'm aware of. Allison

26 years, 10 months

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Saving *BIG* Old Iron...

by mbg＠world.std.com

>This seems very melancholy to me. Delightful that you're there to >preserve the machines for posterity, but sad that prodcutive machines are >being shut down after long service. > >"Farewell, o' good and faithful servant". I know what you mean... I've read the story about the shutdown of a -10 system back in october of 82(?) which is on Tim Shoppa's ftp area... I wish I could have something as touching... What is sad about it is the fact that part of the reason the machines are being decomissioned is the person who cared for them apparently died recently of cancer... today's shutdown was part of the ongoing grieving process for the people who had been using them. It was difficult for them... They are, however, very glad that the machines won't simply be relegated to a trash heap somewhere... they're really glad that they will have new owners who will care for them and keep them running... So we don't have to say farewell to them, they wll find service. Part of that service will be to provide a base system against which some KS10 emulators which I know are being developed can be compared against. I also hope that someday we will be able to get them on the net and let others use them. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

Since we all see to have so much time on our hands . . . perhaps it would be amusing to attempt to write the SAME logic in the SAME way on each processor, then compare to see which is faster. THEN turn around and try to improve the implementation of this logic to see which is easier to speed up, and perhaps see which has the greatest cost in terms of memory usage, etc. It's truly a retrocomputing exercise, as neither processor is "still around" in the sense of mainstream applications, or even as an "active" product. I guess that qualifies it as an extended topic in this forum. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 2:00 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> I realy love your mails - Just reading all of this I felt almost >> 20 years younger - I was involved _very_ heavyly into the Z80/8080 >> vs. 6502 discusion back then - weh had a circle of engeneers where >> one part wher 8085/Z80 advocates, whie some (like me) where 6502 >> boreheads. > >Actually I'm not done with it. just have the time. The fundemental >problem is not really which is faster, I think for the real world >applications they are likely close but the arguement is flawed. It >misstates the z80 and 6502 timing vs real useage. > >What's funny is I have a kim one I can run and a z80 SBC for comparison. > > >Allison > > >

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

The TI computers in general were a bit off center in a number of ways. They certainly had potential which was under utilized, I suspect, because of a strange way of interfacing to their video subsystem. Lacking an OS and the usual assortment of non-game (carefully not using words like "serious" or "real-world" or . . .) software applications was a bit of a hindrance, though. I ws never interested in the TI stuff for my own use, as it didn't offer anything I didn't already have with other systems. I looked into their 9980 (single chipper) for a while. It turned out not to be much of an improvement over the 8748 for which I'd already done all the requisite suffering, so that's what I used. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mark Gregory <gregorym(a)cadvision.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 8:52 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >Now I know that many people didn't consider it a reasonable computer, but >the TMS-9900 did make a memorable appearance in the TI-99/4/4A of blessed >memory - 16K if I recall correctly. Once you added a PEB, RS-232 card, 32 K >memory card, 2 HH DS/SD floppies and an Extended Basic cartidge, it was a >fine computer. > >So bite your tongue. > >Cheers, >Mark "They'll pry my TI out of my cold, dead hands" Gregory > >At 02:16 PM 4/21/99 -0600, you wrote: >>For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could >>consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues >>home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for >>interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I >>didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an >>SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >>not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >>was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >>of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >>ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. >> >>Dick >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >>Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:10 PM >>Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> >> >>>> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other >>processors >>>> than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A >>and >>>> the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of >>>> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 >>in >>>> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as >>the >>>> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the >>IBM-PC >>>> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. >>> >>>in 1982, the 9900 was also big and beasts like SC/MP where still on >>>the run (and 680xx, 808x and 160xx comming up), but you're right if >>>you want to pich the two mayor player in the SOHO market. >>> >>>But still, a general measurement includes them. >>> >>>Gruss >>>H. >>> >>>-- >>>Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >>>Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >>>Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >>>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >>>HRK >> >> >>

26 years, 10 months

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SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Aaron, OK now how the hell do I get it out to find out what's in there? Joe At 01:27 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >The 411 is just the box. Mine has an Archive Viper QIC-150 in it that I >use with an Emulex MT-02 controller. You'll have to take a look inside to >see what you've got in there. Under SunOS, you should be able to access >this as device st[devnum]. Check the man page for "st" for some more info. > >Aaron > >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> I just picked up a SUN model 411 tape drive PN 595-1711-03. I can't find it >> in the SUN FAQ , does anyone have any info on it? >> >> Joe >> > >

26 years, 10 months

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Ah, but what was the first Microcomputer (including at least a monitor with <bitmap display, some sort of disk or floppy drive, as standard features, <and 'personal' in nature)? That could be a pdp-12 or a POLY-88 depending on your point of view. Clearly a northstar horizon with a compucolor would fit that requirement though at that time useres didn't feel the need for more than a good terminal. That would be 1978. Why bit mapped monitor? Allison

26 years, 10 months

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more chording keyboards

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

At 09:42 PM 4/21/99 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hi, >> I still haven't built a chording keyboard, but I'd like to know, what are >> its advantages/disadvantages over a regular one? I realize the general >> differences, what I'm looking for is 'it would be great for typing >> because.., it would be awful for data entry because....' > >Well, what it's useful for often depends on how the chords are assigned. >I have a Microwriter Agenda, and it's quite difficult to type some of the >characters like '{' that are rarely used in English (but which are common >in programming). The one I built for my PERQ (hopefully) makes it easier >to type some of the common programming symbols (at the expense of making >some letters a little harder to type). > >The main advantage is that (a) they're very fast to use (once you learn >to use them, which I haven't) and (b) they can be used 1-handed. The >original idea (from Xerox IIRC) was that you used the chording pad with >one hand and the mouse with the other. I want to try a mouse with a >chording keypad built in, but I've not got round to making it. > >-tony > I thought that the chording keyboard was one of Doug Engelbart's innovations. I believe he envisioned them as a way to move through Cyberspace more efficently than with a mouse. So that would pre-date PARC, being at Arpa or at Tymshare. Mark.

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

Now I know that many people didn't consider it a reasonable computer, but the TMS-9900 did make a memorable appearance in the TI-99/4/4A of blessed memory - 16K if I recall correctly. Once you added a PEB, RS-232 card, 32 K memory card, 2 HH DS/SD floppies and an Extended Basic cartidge, it was a fine computer. So bite your tongue. Cheers, Mark "They'll pry my TI out of my cold, dead hands" Gregory At 02:16 PM 4/21/99 -0600, you wrote: >For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could >consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues >home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for >interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I >didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an >SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:10 PM >Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing > > >>> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other >processors >>> than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A >and >>> the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of >>> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 >in >>> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as >the >>> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the >IBM-PC >>> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. >> >>in 1982, the 9900 was also big and beasts like SC/MP where still on >>the run (and 680xx, 808x and 160xx comming up), but you're right if >>you want to pich the two mayor player in the SOHO market. >> >>But still, a general measurement includes them. >> >>Gruss >>H. >> >>-- >>Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >>Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >>Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >>HRK > > >

26 years, 10 months

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Saving *BIG* Old Iron...

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

This seems very melancholy to me. Delightful that you're there to preserve the machines for posterity, but sad that prodcutive machines are being shut down after long service. "Farewell, o' good and faithful servant". Cheers, Mark. At 01:37 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote: > >It looks like everything is coming together... We have a team >assembled (compiled?) to decommission and move a set of KS10 >decsystem-10 36-bit machines and the move happens this weekend! > >I was in attendance earlier today as the machines were shut >down for the final time where they have been for quite a few >years. I got a picture of the final systat screen, and they >stopped timesharing... > >We then got busy unloading and shutting down all the disk drives. >I then shut down the individual boxes and power controllers for >the system cabinets and isolated the cabling (they had LOTS of >terminal cables). I then raised all the stabilizing feet and >used a tie-wrap to attach the panel keys inside the cabinet. I >then closed and latched the front doors. I also did the same >for the tape drive cabinets. They're all rolling free and ready >to go. > >On friday, we'll be pre-staging all the disk drives, and on >saturday we load-out to trucks. > >I'll be taking more pictures as we go along... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > >

26 years, 10 months

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And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

At 03:05 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Sam wrote: >Check this excellent timeline out for updating your microcomputer history >knowledge: > >http://www1.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist.htm Here's another one describing many (micro)computers: Including 2901's, 6502, Moto's 1 bit, etc. http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~csclub/museum/cpu.html > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > -Dave

26 years, 10 months

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The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 11:52 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> I'd go with a pickup load of $$$ and come back with several loads of junk, >> er, umm, stuff. Good thing I'm on the wrong side of the country. > >Hans Franke came all the way from Germany last year and bought a truck >load of stuff, so what's stopping you (besides sanity)? > >(Unfortunately, that truckload of stuff ended up taking up valuable space >in my closet...some people just don't know their limits :) LOL! At least he can say he owns it even if it's in a different country! Joe

26 years, 10 months

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PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>> Speaking from decades of experience, you *do not* put a Unibus machine >> together in a big configuration, especially from mix-and-match used >> parts, and get it to work. You go down to the most basic configuration >> possible, and then add parts one at a time, testing as you go. >Well, with the exception of the DELUA, and RAM everything is configured the >way it was when I got the machine, but that's a good point. I hope nobody takes it as an insult when I try to encourage them to take a system down to its bare-bones and build it back up step-by-step, but this really is the best way to debug a system that one knows little about the history of. Just because something is written on the sticker on the cover of a system about its configuration doesn't mean that it was working in that last configuration! In particular, with Unibus machines you have to check the presence of the NPG jumpers on the backplane if you have the slightest reason to believe that the configuration has been meddled with in the slightest since it last worked. A single mis-placed jumper anywhere in the system can cause the entire system to lock up when the first DMA attempt is made... Tim.

26 years, 10 months

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Programming fixtures for Panasonic HHC

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: A friend of mine has a small quantity (~30) of adapters to enable one to program the EPROMs used in the Panasonic HHC with a standard EPROM programmer. The adaptor houses the 8K eprom, most commonly used is the MCM68764 by Motorola, but a special crimping device is used on the chips before they can seat in the HHC proper. If this was not the case, you wouldn't need the special insertion socket to burn chips, you would be able to seat the eproms directly into the ZIF sockets on the programmer being used. These adapters were supposedly hand-crafted for the purpose. Asking price is $15@ plus shipping from New Jersey. If anyone needs more details, e-mail me privately and I can hook you up with the guy selling them. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 10 months

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And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...

by edick＠idcomm.com

In '76 a couple of my friends and I were ogling at ads for Alpha Micro and some self-contained Z-80-based unit from CompuTrol or some such manufacturer. The latter had a built in display and printer, though I don't recall what kind of display and printer. It might have been an EPN9120-based printer, but it appeared it was a small CRT from the ads. It might have been a small, e.g. 20-character alpha-numeric LED display, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Re: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... >> >> No, I was referring to your comment of the TRS-80 M1 being the "first >> personal computer". We won't argue about the definition of "personal >> computer", but for the sake of this discussion, the Apple ][ and Commodore >> PET were both introduced in April 1977 at the first West Coast Computer >> Faire. The TRS-80 M1 was introduced in August of 1977. > >Really? I stand corrected then. I always assumed the TRS-80 came out before >the A2 and the PET. And I should have specified first commercially sold >ready-to-use personal computer. And I might have been wrong even with that. >Would you believe first computer I ever saw for sale? :) > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 10 months

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And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...

by edick＠idcomm.com

>10 years? >Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of the 80s? > No, I'd say it was a force to be reckoned with from the first day it appeared, but it was several years before a reasonably useful suite of software was available at a reasonable price. The Z-80 and Apple-II continued to be a force in the marketplace until the late '80's. By 1988, the PC was completely dominant in the general purpose microcomputer market, with the exception of the desktop publishing market, which the Apple MacIntosh, in case you've forgotten about it, had pretty well dominated up to the release of Windows 3.0. The appearance of WIndows 3.0 got the MAC people to look at the pricetag for the first time. Up to then there had been few WYSIWYG graphics tools for the PC. Once the PC started showing up with WYSIWYG graphics applications, the MAC's days were numbered. This could have been fixed with a timely price cut, but that wasn't forthcoming. I even had pretty decent cross-development tools for the PC, yet continued using my CP/M tools until about 1987. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:38 PM Subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing... >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors >> than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and >> the 8085, of course. > >In it's first couple of years, the IBM PC (introduced 8/11/1981) sold >enough machines that surely the 8088 could have been said to be in popular >use! >[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] > >> The majority of home computers, though, used one of >> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in >> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the >> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC >> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. > >10 years? >Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of >the 80s? >[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] > >

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

History ran a different course from where I sit. In 1985, the R65C02 was in almost every new communications product I saw, e.g. FAX machines, though many had a custom device. Those custom devices in many cases had a 65C02 core. Rockwell pushed it into those applications by making many of their other parts "friendly" to the 650x core. The 805x was a mite slow out of the blocks, and in '85, it was real but not appealing and certainly not taking much business from the Z-80 or 650x because its price was still WAY too high. It was, however, a single-chip device . . . There's this old military saying, that "where you sit determines what you see." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 5:17 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing ><For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could ><consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues > >One of the first commercial lorans had it! it was big in embedded circles >that needed some oomph or were replacing ti990 minis. > ><didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an ><SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it wa > >You didn't look hard. It was popular in embedded apps at the low end as it >was cheap and easy to code for. > ><of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe ><ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > >For the consumer market? Well, that's what we're discussing, isn't it? >In the 1981 to 1982 timeframe: > > 808x was getting into embeeded apps and there were few general computer apps for it. > > Z8000 series were getting in to military boxes. >

26 years, 10 months

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Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing)

by mbg＠world.std.com

I have found a reference which has some rules for constructing roman numerals. Firstly, four of a given numeral is okay, but five or more is not. This allows VIIII to be valid. You must use the largest numeral at a given stage, so for 15, you don't write VVV, you write XV. Numerals of a lower value, when written in front of a higher valued numeral subtract their value from the higher valued numeral. Further rules for the subtraction: o Only I X and C can be used in this way. V, L and D cannot (nor can M) o Only one smaller numeral can be written first. So XIIX is not valid for 18. o The lower numeral must be no less than a tenth of the value of the higher numeral. o It specifically states that each power of ten is handled separately, and uses the example that 49 is NOT IL, it is correctly XLIX. These are the rules I have used in my routine... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Name a non-homebrew SC/MP based computer. <(note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to <the old magazines) Not including the three sold by National Semi or the ones that used the 8073 SC/MP with a internal rom tiny basic(also sold be national)??? Allison

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could <consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues One of the first commercial lorans had it! it was big in embedded circles that needed some oomph or were replacing ti990 minis. <didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an <SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it wa You didn't look hard. It was popular in embedded apps at the low end as it was cheap and easy to code for. <of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe <ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. For the consumer market? In the 1981 to 1982 timeframe: 808x was getting into embeeded apps and there were few general computer apps for it. Z8000 series were getting in to military boxes. 8051 was well on the way and pushing out 6502s. In the embedded market is where most started. Allison

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 4/21/99 3:29:10 PM Central Daylight Time, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: >> of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >> ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > > Richard, the rest of the world does not peer through the same blinders you > have on. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com > Name a non-homebrew SC/MP based computer. (note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to the old magazines) Kelly

26 years, 10 months

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And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 4/21/99 4:33:49 PM Central Daylight Time, jim(a)calico.litterbox.com writes: > Heh. No. I got my first PC in 1990. 386s had just come out, but an XT was 386's came out in 1986. Kelly

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 4/21/99 4:20:10 PM Central Daylight Time, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: > Is this a challenge of some sort? The comment I made was referring to > Richard's overall outlook on computer development throughout the past two > and a half decades. But as far as SC/MP based computers go, the next time > I visit my warehouse I'll take take note of the singleboard SC/MP > computers I have. > > In the meantime, Hans will tell you about the ones he has in his > collection. > call it what you will. I simply asked for a name. Kelly

26 years, 10 months

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And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>> *My* gauge of when the PC became the dominant force was when: >> 1. Dr. Dobb's started carrying few articles other than ones talking about >> MS-DOS >> and >> 2. The quantity of IBM PC ads in the back of BYTE outinched the >> number of S-100 ads >> Looking at my back issues, I'd draw the line at 1985. >Did Dr. Dobb's and Byte really represent the mainstream? Dr. Dobb's in the early 80's kind-of split itself between dedicated hobbyists and professional (business-based, usually) microcomputer programmers, with a lot of influence from the mini world. BYTE was really wide-ranging, and actually did a pretty good job at covering not only what the current hot seller was, but also exploring into the nooks and crannies of the industry as new things came out. *Both* lost most of their variety when the IBM PC and early clones steamrolled through. >How about something even more subjective: >IBM PC became the dominant force when, ... >The fun went out of the industry. That's kind-of-sort-of the same thing :-(. >Who can assign dates to when the industry lost its sense of humor? Such >as: when Kentucky Fried Computer became NorthStar? > when Thinker Toys became Morrow Designs? > when Intergalactic Digital Research became Digital Research Inc.? The DRI change was before 1976 by a year or two, I believe. My first copy of CP/M (1.3) says "Digital Research" under Gary Kildall's signature on the license, and that's from 1976. Wasn't there also "Itty Bitty Machines" which was forced to change its name when leaned on by a slightly larger company with similar initials? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>> The majority of home computers, though, used one of >> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in >> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the >> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC >> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. >10 years? >Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of >the 80s? >[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] *My* gauge of when the PC became the dominant force was when: 1. Dr. Dobb's started carrying few articles other than ones talking about MS-DOS and 2. The quantity of PC-Clone ads in the back of BYTE outinched the number of S-100 ads Looking at my back issues, I'd draw the line at 1985. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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Need Info on DEC Board: USDC-1101

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>They are made by (apparently) USDC, model number 1101, revisions "01" and >"BG". The chips are marked circa 1982. They have a Z80, som EPROM, a >couple of PALs, and a 40 pin IDC header. They are half-height boards ( >i.e. two sets of fingers). "LSI-11 Host Interface" is silk screened onto >the board under the part number. > >Can anyone tell me what these are? They came out of an 11/23 box badged >11-DM4, althought the box is in the truck and I may have the DM$ slightly >incorrect. USDC= U.S. Design Corporation. They're based in Maryland, not too far >from where I now live. They sold (among other things) disk subsystems. The one you have emulates RK06/RK07 drives, and hooked (via the 40 pin connector) to an external box that had a hard drive (either a 5.25" MFM or a 8" non-MFM) with electronics that converted the native drive interface to the 40-pin interface. You might have seen the appropriate drive boxes in my storage space in Surrey, if you remember our trip there :-). They're 5.25" rack-width boxes, have black fronts with a row of bar LED's that blink in a cylon patterm when running, and are about 25" deep - you ought to head back out to UBC and see if there are any USDC boxes meeting this description there. I still have the drives and the interfaces, but it's been years since I've powered them up. The controller is 22-bit-Qbus capable, but the PDP-11 OS's only know of Unibus RK06's/07's, so machines with more than 256kbytes of memory generally had USDC patches made to the OS drivers so they knew how to do DMA to high memory. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues

by Innfogra＠aol.com

It was a very cheap sale. Unfortunately it means that the scrappers got most of it. Checkout is still going on so there is a chance for some rescues if anyone is interested. I am posting the following list in hope that someone is interested in the misc. I will negotiate with the scrappers who bought the following if you are interested. Cheap offers are OK but we must move fast. Vector 3 (not a Soroc) with attached hard/floppy drive. The power cord for the HD/FL is broke. The CPU powers up nicely and all has worked in the past. The glare guard fabric is torn. Two Vector 4s with hard and floppy drives. They work but I can't find keyboards. Vector DD-5026 dual floppy accessory. Andromedia Systems Dual 5 1/4 floppy disk drive, DDMDS-B, SN 21. Could this be for DEC equip. MD 10 (Media Distributing Mfg.) Model RM11, SN 0061. One of the first small systems hard drive. Untested. CCS (California Computer Systems) 12 slot S 100 Mainframe with 64K static ram (4 - 16K boards), 2850 system processor Z80A, 2805 terminator, 2422 Floppy controller, 2830, 6 SIO. Missing the faceplate and has scratches on finish. Goes with a complete Dual 8" external drive. Set up as a USPS controller. IBC Multi-User Business computer, running a Z80H. DBS 16 4 user MPM system, has a 10 meg HD and has a serial number of 48. No terminals. Appears to work. Vista, V-1100 dual 8" disk drive case with dual Shugart 860-1 drives. Another drive case is a JMR Electronics with two Tandon TM848-01s. Powers up. Commodore dual disk drive. 4040 I think. HPIB interface. Compupros, Two 16 slots wi Tarbel Z80 CPU/IO, Ram 16 and the Tarbel MD 2022 8" Floppy controller. Integrand 7 slot S 100 Mainframe with the funny wide slot 5 1/4" disk drive. No cards. A Columbia 1202-4/110 Drive cabinet with an 8" HD and an 8" Floppy. A 10 slot Compupro with a single 8" SS drive, 8085/88 CPU, Ram 16 180A and a Disk One. A US Data dual 8" SD disk drive cabinet. A Telebyte TBX front loading reel Tape drive with serial IF. A Televideo TS803 that boots MS Dos. Works fine. a Symmetric 375 for parts, no HD (1/2 of the power of a VAX 750)! I have also made a deal with another scrapper to offer both 8 " hard and floppy drives. Several Quantum 2020s, 2040s and 2080 HDs. Three IMI 7720 HDs Shugart 801 and 851 full Ht Floppies Mitsubishi 2894 - 63B Full Ht. Floppies DSDD also Mitsubishi 1/2 Ht 2896-63B DSDD Floppies, Tandon 848 1/2 Ht floppies of different versions, NEC 1165-FQ & 1 1165-A 1/2 Ht floppys, and Shugart 810 and 860 1/2 Ht floppies, all 8" drives. All are working pulls, heads parked but untested. Looking to get $10 to $40 depending on size, condition and quantity. Shipping additional. I also believe the VAX 730, the RA60 and the RA81s are headed for scrap. Any Interest out there? Paxton

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:10 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors >> than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and >> the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of >> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in >> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the >> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC >> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. > >in 1982, the 9900 was also big and beasts like SC/MP where still on >the run (and 680xx, 808x and 160xx comming up), but you're right if >you want to pich the two mayor player in the SOHO market. > >But still, a general measurement includes them. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

26 years, 10 months

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Need Info on DEC Board: USDC-1101

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi Gang: I just returned from the local university junk sale, and acquired (among other detritus) two Q bus boards. They are made by (apparently) USDC, model number 1101, revisions "01" and "BG". The chips are marked circa 1982. They have a Z80, som EPROM, a couple of PALs, and a 40 pin IDC header. They are half-height boards ( i.e. two sets of fingers). "LSI-11 Host Interface" is silk screened onto the board under the part number. Can anyone tell me what these are? They came out of an 11/23 box badged 11-DM4, althought the box is in the truck and I may have the DM$ slightly incorrect. Thanks, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

26 years, 10 months

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Sun 1 question

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>There's a rough equivalent to the "DEC Field Guide" for Sun systems. >It's the "Sun Hardware Reference", and is by James W Birsall, and >(at least it used to) is posted to comp.sys.sun.hardware semi-regularly. > >One version on the web is at > > http://stumbo.vm.com/~techrat/faq_hardware/hwref0.html I should also point out that there's a good amount of information in that FAQ that non-Sun collectors would also be interested in. Settings for many Multibus and VME modules, settings for many of the Emulex MFM and ESDI<->SCSI bridge controllers, settings for at least some of the more common QIC drives, some very basic information on older SCSI and IPI drives, and a pointer to the "Sun format.dat" table, which has geometry tables for common configurations of many SMD drives. There are also some gaping holes in the information that I'm sure we could help fill in, too :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>This is the configuration that the machine came in, except it was missing >the RAM and DELUA, I've added both where they had originally been according >to the diagram on the CPU cover, except I'm not sure if there were 1 or 4 >RAM cards originally. > >Pardon such basic questions, but this is the first time I've worked on a >UNIBUS system, I'm used to working on my Q-Bus systems. Speaking from decades of experience, you *do not* put a Unibus machine together in a big configuration, especially from mix-and-match used parts, and get it to work. You go down to the most basic configuration possible, and then add parts one at a time, testing as you go. I'd recommend that anyone in a situation similar to yours strip the machine down to a single system unit (i.e. pull the M9202 linking the backplane segments together and put a terminator in slot 14), with a single memory board and a single disk-like peripheral, then work their way up. Of course, you need a terminator before you can do any of this, and preferably a few spare grant continuity cards (but we'll make sure these shortcomings are fixed shortly!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

3
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Repairing core

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On 19 Apr 1999, none other than Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> himself wrote: ] I don't see what the big attraction to a core plane is. You stick it on ] your wall. Whoopee! Look at me, I have a core plane on my wall. Big ] fricken deal. Nobody even knows what it is anyway. From afar it looks ] like a black square. Closer up it looks like a piece of a window screen. ] ] Unfortunately, my rant is not going to stop the lame-o's selling it from ] hyping it up as some cool collectable, and it's not going to stop the ] techno-wannabees from buying it to stick on their wall. So what kind of wall hanging is more appropriate for a geek? Besides, where the heck am I going to find the rest of a Univac to plug it into? I like the "bait" theory and all, but... And too, I'd wager that most of your collection is of the "look at that" variety. You can't tell me you actually _use_ more than a handful of them. I've seen your schedule, remember? And let's not drag bubble memory into it, eh? Nyah, nyah, and nyah. Bill.

26 years, 10 months

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Ancient disk controllers

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On 19 Apr 1999, that Cool Frood ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: ] Yes. I have the Signetics data sheets for the 8x300, 8T31, etc. They're ] in an old Mullard/Philips data book which also covers the 68000. I recently scored a Signetics data book with 8x305 data in it, along with a Fairchild databook (F8) and an RCA databook (1802). It's weird, I'm almost as happy about it as if I had gotten machines based on those processors! Cool Beans! Bill.

26 years, 10 months

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PDP-11/44 CPU Configuration

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

I've finally got power for my PDP-11/44 so I'm getting ready to start testing it out, and as a result have made a careful diagram of the CPU prior to pulling the cards so I can test the Power Supply. It took some doing, but I found Tony's message from June 10th of last year telling me how to test it :^) In doing up the diagram I've discovered a few problems. I'd appreciate it if someone that knows what they're looking at could take a look a the diagram though. The diagram is here: http://zane.brouhaha.com/healyzh/images/pdp1144cards.GIF I realize I'm missing M9302 UNIBUS Terminator. Slot 15 is actually the gap between the two backplanes in the cabinet, and Slots 25-29 don't exist. I suspect I need "Grant Continuity Cards" in Slots 10-12 since I don't have memory in them. Is there anything else that I'm missing, or does anyone see any problems with this configuration? This is the configuration that the machine came in, except it was missing the RAM and DELUA, I've added both where they had originally been according to the diagram on the CPU cover, except I'm not sure if there were 1 or 4 RAM cards originally. Pardon such basic questions, but this is the first time I've worked on a UNIBUS system, I'm used to working on my Q-Bus systems. I did get one pleasant surprise, I'd thought I was missing the FP11. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 10 months

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The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I'd go with a pickup load of $$$ and come back with several loads of junk, er, umm, stuff. Good thing I'm on the wrong side of the country. Joe At 11:05 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >If I went down with a pickupload of that stuff I might bring back a pickup >load of other stuff.... > >George > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor Jr. george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Marvin wrote: >> >> > Hmmm, another thought ... VCF 3.0 is coming up and would be a great place to >> > sell off these systems if you have the time, room, and inclination to do so! >> >> Yeah, good point. I'll wager that if you were to put this all in the back >> of a pickup and drive down to VCF 3.0 for the weekend, you'd drive back up >> with a stack of bills in your pocket and an empty pickup. >> >> Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. >> >> Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >> >> > >

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>I'm serious. I really have wanted to build something like this. In terms >of size, the problem isn't the wiring, it's the redundant circuitry. Most of the DEC core planes use a fair number of special-purpose transistor arrays (often specially matched) for drivers as well as pulse transformers and delay lines. If you look back at alt.sys.pdp8 archives (or its mailing-list twin, PDP8-LOVERS) you'll find some suggestions for part substitutions and/or rebuild directions. I believe that at least one of the electronics rags in the Lasnerian mid-70's (Radio Electronics? Popular Electronics?) published an article on using surplus core arrays that were readily available at the time, but the article was remarkably detail-free when it came to the actual details of driving and sensing. There were at least a few implementations of S-100 core memory in the mid-70's, and one of them was a S-100 to Unibus translator of sorts. (Not to be confused with the IMSAI S-100/Unibus shared memory module, which is in several of my IMSAI price lists from 1977/1978 but which I believe to be vaporware.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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heads up; OSI Challenger 1P

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Well, I don't know the Electrical Codes across the Pond exactly (I have a <fair idea of the UK regulations...), but I think I read somewhere that <you can't have a 220V outlet for equipment less than a certain wattage <(1.4kW comes to mind). Seems a very silly regulation, but then a lot of <regulations are. Meaningless. I have a pigtail at the box with a 3terminal twist and lock (hubble) wired for 220. It's there as general use for heating in the garage or welding equipment if I had it. I've used it for testing motors (1/4HP) that were clearly under 1.4kw. The codes are aimed at providing reasonable power. Here a 15A/115v is the nominal and 115V/20A is a max but 220/208 at any current the mains can be wired for is common. It would be foolish to sell 220V/1500W hair dryers here as the nominal mains are expected to handle that kind of load. Allison

26 years, 10 months

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UNIBUS Terminators

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

26 years, 10 months

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DEC BC11A-15 Cable

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

While your comments are valid observations, I submit, however, that we're coming at this from two different viewpoints. I wish to address the question "Which processor is faster, 6502 or Z-80?" while you want a general comparison of processors. Unfortunately, answering one question doesn't address the other. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Yakowenko <yakowenk(a)cs.unc.edu> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 12:26 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >On 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: >] It's true that may be more interesting when you have different vehicles, but >] if you're trying to determine which of two is faster, don't you focus on >] those two? Having lots of variations in the hardware only tends to muddy >] the water. > >Obviously, some of us care about vehicles other than those two. >Doesn't muddy _my_ waters one bit. :-P > >I, for one, am interested in processor capabilities independent >of video/disk/etc gorp. Roman numerals isn't going to be a >thorough comparison, but it's better than nothing, and small >enough to be fun. If this is still going on in a month or two, >maybe I'll write an entry myself. As it is now, my schedule >barely allows me to keep up with all the stuff you guys are >writing! > > > >And then, later the same day, regarding my suggestion about >noting the relative ages of processors when comparing their >results, he wrote: >] It's pretty hard to imagine how a limitation like your suggestion would >] apply. Newer processors addressed weaknesses in the older ones. One of >] those was ease of programming. In some cases, e.g. the 6809, the processor >] was designed with a regular instruction set and lots of addressing modes so >] as to make generating code easy. It didn't necessarily make it faster. I >] don't know how elegant such code will ultimately turn out to be. > >If you want to get a handle on which processors were really >better than others performance-wise, you look at the best they >can do on some specific problems. Granted, the results may >not be easy to interpret because of varying environmental >characteristics. Welcome to Earth. Nothing is simple here. > >Obviously, if the 6809 loses to some older processor, its >adherents can still claim ease-of-coding as a benefit. But it >would still be interesting to know if it could regularly get >whomped by a measly, pathetic, sad-excuse-for-a-processor like >the 6502. :-) :-) :-) :-) > >My suggestion was not meant as any sort of limitation, just my >take on what kind of result would be interesting; one way of >interpreting the results. If an older processor doesn't do as >well as the newer one, well, we expected that. But if an older >one outperforms a newer one, there is something worth exploring >there, a lesson to be learned about an improvement really wasn't. > > Bill. > >

26 years, 10 months

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DEC Options Module List

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>> In the case of DEC parts, having a dumpster-dived copy of the "Option/Module >> Hardware List" stamped "DEC Confidential" all over it helps a little >> bit :-). >The holy grail of DEC dumpster divers everywhere. >Unfortunately, mine stayed at DEC when I left. I was a good boy when >I left.

26 years, 10 months

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Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner <spc(a)armigeron.com> wrote: > > Problem: Convert a binary value to Roman, using ASCII characters (or > > the native character set if applicable) into a string > > with a termination character (if ASCII, use the NUL (0) > > character). > > > Sorry, I goofed. The longer string is 16 characters long: > > 'MMMDCCCLXXXVIII' plus termination character. In terms of how to represent numbers like 1999 (MIM or MCMXCIX), the rule I learned as a kid was that it was not proper to subtract any numeral >from any other numeral willy-nilly. Only certain combinations were allowed and you had to just memorize them. Here's some links to some pages with something to say about Roman Numerals http://www.cod.edu/people/faculty/lawrence/romans00.htm http://www.col-ed.org/cur/math/math41.txt http://www.mcn.net/~jimloy/roman0.html http://raven.bu.edu/~grozdits/student/roman_num.html ... and we now return you to your regularly scheduled Off Topic discussions... -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 10 months

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Program Challenge (was Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing)

by mbg＠world.std.com

>And again, more questions: >If I'm right at Megans description, she just include the next lower >digit when it comes to these subtraction rules, and your Algo seams >to be weak at the same point. Let me give an example: >49 would be normaly coded as IL (always remember, it was kind of a >system to reduce writing as much as possible - there are even examples >where the number 248 is written CIIL) while Megan seams to code it as >XXXXIX - basicly wrong - or did I miss something ? I'm not realy >what one can call a DEC-Geek. My code would produce XLIX, not XXXXIX... I guess I'm unclear as to whether any numeral can be used to reduce the value of a higher, subsequent numeral. Using your explanation, 1999 would be MIM, instead of the more standard (as I have seen it) MCMXCIX. Also, what's to stop someone from writing it in a form employing the vinculum: __ III >So do we only have to supporte the one-less rule, or the rule >of one subtraction numeral - or the full possibility with the >goal to reduce writing to a max ? So long as someone can clearly explain the rules to what can be subtracted from what, I'll implement it... (kind of like requiring a spec). Without it, I can only go on what I can find documented in the encyclopedia... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 10 months

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Saving *BIG* Old Iron...

by gentry＠zk3.dec.com

It looks like everything is coming together... We have a team assembled (compiled?) to decommission and move a set of KS10 decsystem-10 36-bit machines and the move happens this weekend! I was in attendance earlier today as the machines were shut down for the final time where they have been for quite a few years. I got a picture of the final systat screen, and they stopped timesharing... We then got busy unloading and shutting down all the disk drives. I then shut down the individual boxes and power controllers for the system cabinets and isolated the cabling (they had LOTS of terminal cables). I then raised all the stabilizing feet and used a tie-wrap to attach the panel keys inside the cabinet. I then closed and latched the front doors. I also did the same for the tape drive cabinets. They're all rolling free and ready to go. On friday, we'll be pre-staging all the disk drives, and on saturday we load-out to trucks. I'll be taking more pictures as we go along... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 10 months

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Counting keystrokes

by Watzman＠ibm.net

Believe it or not, the most common use of keeping keystrokes was for employee evaluation. I remember weekly postings of graphs of "keystrokes/hour" in data entry and word processing departments, with a weekly "prize" [nominal value] for the "best" data entry operator of the week. This and similar productivity measurement measures were not uncommon.

26 years, 10 months

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IBM AT technical reference

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Who was I supposed to copy the IBM AT Tech Ref manual? I lost your message. I've made the copy, let me know who you are. Joe

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- John Dykstra <jdykstra(a)nortelnetworks.com> wrote: > I have several jars of ferrite cores made by IBM sometime in the late > 1950's. I don't know exactly what size they are, but they can be > hand-wired without a stereo microscope. Cool. > As I recall, I used something like #60 enameled wire. One of the > challenges was stripping the insulation off the ends of the wires without > damaging the copper. Heat? Chemicals? Friction? > If anyone is seriously intending to build a demo core memory system, I'd be > glad to provide a couple of hundred cores. I'd recommend something like a > 16x16 array, unless you're looking for a project to make a 20-to-life > sentence go faster. I'm serious. I really have wanted to build something like this. In terms of size, the problem isn't the wiring, it's the redundant circuitry. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 10 months

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1802 data sheets: was old data books

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>> Good - if you can find some RCA file numbers for the 1801's in there >> for Eric, this'll be a huge step forward in getting the 1801 data sheets >> from RCA and/or Harris. >I know I have nothing on the 1801. It was phased out completely by RCA >in '77 or so. You looked through your 1802 stuff and didn't find a single reference to any 1801 literature? Often just having the reference lets you go to the local EE department and find the appropriate volume in their library (Many departments do have books going back to the early 70's) or in the personal library of one of the faculty members. Unfortunately, little of this stuff is in an online database anywhere, so you really have to do the legwork to track it down. I spent most of my academic career doing such legwork - it's been decades since many of the best tables of thermal neutron cross sections have been published, and I found many of them in dusty corners of little- used labs. Incidentally, I found my HP9100B while searching dusty corners for neutron cross section tables :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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1802 data sheets: was old data books

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>> If you want to continue the search further, Harris has online data >> sheets for much of the CDP18XX series (including the classic 1802 >> interface and memory parts), and maybe one of these will have a file >> number for an 1801 data sheet. After you get a file number, you can >> usually have the folks at Harris fax the data sheet to you. >I have full 1802 docs from back when the elf article was published. Good - if you can find some RCA file numbers for the 1801's in there for Eric, this'll be a huge step forward in getting the 1801 data sheets >from RCA and/or Harris. >The 1801 series was a less dense (hence teo chips) version of the 1802 >and was discontinued with the advent of the 1802 back around '76. Yep - this is why you need the file number before you can get any further. The data probably exist in paper form, but aren't indexed in any of the on-line databases that the manufacturers still have. It's like getting obsolete parts from DEC; first you have to convince yourself that such a part still exists, then you have to find the part number, and then you often find it's an off-the-shelf item even though it might not have been produced for 20 years. (Examples of stuff I've ordered in the past few years are RX02 and RL02 drive belts, and even a can of Magna-See.) In the case of DEC parts, having a dumpster-dived copy of the "Option/Module Hardware List" stamped "DEC Confidential" all over it helps a little bit :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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Sun 1 question

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>How can I identify Sun 1 cards? There's a rough equivalent to the "DEC Field Guide" for Sun systems. It's the "Sun Hardware Reference", and is by James W Birsall, and (at least it used to) is posted to somp.sys.sun.hardware semi-regularly. One version on the web is at http://stumbo.vm.com/~techrat/faq_hardware/hwref0.html Part 1 is a brief introduction to the various Sun models and backplanes, and Part 3 contains many Multibus board numbers. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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Sun 1 question

by Innfogra＠aol.com

How can I identify Sun 1 cards? Paxton

26 years, 10 months

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The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>Andromedia Systems Dual 5 1/4 floppy disk drive, DDMDS-B, SN 21. Could this >be for DEC equip. Almost certainly. Does it have a 34-pin connector on the back? Some of the Andromeda controllers took a "breakout board" that separated the floppy signals from the hard disk signals, but the pre-breakout-board cable was (AFAIK) always wider than 34 pins. Tim.

26 years, 10 months

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driving prices down?

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

I just had an idea. One of the things pushing up e-bay prices is the publication of the high bids of past auctions. The logic for sellers is something like, since the previous one sold for this much, I should expect at least as much for this one. What if we kept (and publicized) a record of asking prices for the things that did *not* sell? Maybe buyers would look at that, and use similar logic to avoid bidding any higher than that? Bill.

26 years, 10 months

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Connecting CSA's Transputer Education Kit to an Inmos B008

by rmeenaks＠olf.com

>> >> Hi, >> >> I have several B004-style CSA Transputer Education Kits (aka TEKs) that use >> an 8-pin minidin connector for its link (compatible to apples printer >> cables). Is there any way for me to connect these nodes to an inmos B008 >> motherboard's 37-way external connector?? Thanks. > > >If they're standard Transputer links, then sure. Have you tried tracing >the pins on the 8 pin miniDINs to see what they're connected to (like >link pins on the transputer)? Reset/error/analyse could be harder to >trace (since they'll possibly go to PALs), but you should be able to >figure something out by which are inputs/outputs. > Actually, I have full details on how to connect (with pinouts) TEKs to other transputer motherboards including INMOS', but not the INMOS B008. Apparently, the specs mention a 5x1 connector (or is it a 5x2) on inmos boards that can be used to connect the TEK to, but since I don't have a B008 yet (coming in the mail anytime now), I can't verify if this type of connector exists on it. I will send out full details once I am at home with all the pinouts etc. Ram

26 years, 10 months

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1802 data sheets: was old data books

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>Speaking of which, sometime back I failed to convince a surplus to sell >me a really old RCA databook which contained information on the two-chip >predecessor of the 1802, which went by the numbers CDP1801R and CDP1801S >if memory servers. > >Anyone have the book or data sheets? I'd love to get copies. Hmm, this doesn't help you much, but I did a bit of poking around, and here's what I came up with: Harris, the current producer of the 1802, has the following documents online: Application notes: AN6565 Design of Clock Generators for Use with COSMAC Microprocessor CDP1802 http://www.semi.harris.com/data/an/an6/an6565/ CMOS CPU Data sheets: CDP1802A \ CDP1802AC| http://www.semi.harris.com/data/fn/fn1/fn1305/ CDP1802BC/ High-Reliability 8-bit CMOS Processor data sheets: CDP1802AC/3 http://www.semi.harris.com/data/fn/fn1/fn1441/ I briefly paged through the above data sheets to see if they might have file numbers for any of the 1801 data sheets, but didn't see any. It was interesting to see that at least some of these classic parts are now available in PLCC's (I suppose this is the modern equivalent of the Flat-Pack, roughly speaking.) If you want to continue the search further, Harris has online data sheets for much of the CDP18XX series (including the classic 1802 interface and memory parts), and maybe one of these will have a file number for an 1801 data sheet. After you get a file number, you can usually have the folks at Harris fax the data sheet to you. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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Repairing core

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Bill Yakowenko <yakowenk(a)cs.unc.edu> wrote: > So what kind of wall hanging is more appropriate for a geek? I have, mounted on a board over the door, a slide rule entitled "In Case Of Emergency". It was my father's when he was in college. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<One plastic box is labeled "Univac memory elements" and has a small sample <of 3 size cores. The largest is about 1mm O.D. and the smallest is less <than half that size. They look very fragile as the I.D. is almost as large <as the O.D. Those are about the size of the 8E cores. <The other is a "Indiana General 15 mill memory plane" I guess the cores ar <15 mill diameter. There are 16 cores wired as a 4x4 plane. The wires are Big fat ones... not really. Those planes would be easy to drive and understand. that would be one I'd love to try. <much smaller than 30 SWG (about 28 AWG). I would say much smaller than 50 <(either) gauge, I need a magnifier just to see them. I'd have guessed thinner than #40. Allison

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 20, 16:04, Chuck McManis wrote: > I'm not sure I parsed this. At my local hardware store the nuts were made > of Zinc (not steel) and but the washers were made of "soft iron" which I > thought meant there was a _lower_ carbon content than "steel" washers. (The > washers are designed to be compliant whereas the nuts are quite hard) Zinc isn't a hard metal and it's only weakly ferromagnetic (doesn't stick to a magnet). The nuts you found are zinc-plated steel, probably what we call BZP (bright zinc plated). Soft iron sometimes has quite a high carbon content, and a very variable silicon content (which affects its magnetic permeability). The composition of "soft iron" varies quite a lot, whereas although different types of steel have different compositions, the composition of any given type is fairly standard (and in some cases very precisely controlled), and usually quite low in silicon. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 10 months

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On 19 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: ] It's true that may be more interesting when you have different vehicles, but ] if you're trying to determine which of two is faster, don't you focus on ] those two? Having lots of variations in the hardware only tends to muddy ] the water. Obviously, some of us care about vehicles other than those two. Doesn't muddy _my_ waters one bit. :-P I, for one, am interested in processor capabilities independent of video/disk/etc gorp. Roman numerals isn't going to be a thorough comparison, but it's better than nothing, and small enough to be fun. If this is still going on in a month or two, maybe I'll write an entry myself. As it is now, my schedule barely allows me to keep up with all the stuff you guys are writing! And then, later the same day, regarding my suggestion about noting the relative ages of processors when comparing their results, he wrote: ] It's pretty hard to imagine how a limitation like your suggestion would ] apply. Newer processors addressed weaknesses in the older ones. One of ] those was ease of programming. In some cases, e.g. the 6809, the processor ] was designed with a regular instruction set and lots of addressing modes so ] as to make generating code easy. It didn't necessarily make it faster. I ] don't know how elegant such code will ultimately turn out to be. If you want to get a handle on which processors were really better than others performance-wise, you look at the best they can do on some specific problems. Granted, the results may not be easy to interpret because of varying environmental characteristics. Welcome to Earth. Nothing is simple here. Obviously, if the 6809 loses to some older processor, its adherents can still claim ease-of-coding as a benefit. But it would still be interesting to know if it could regularly get whomped by a measly, pathetic, sad-excuse-for-a-processor like the 6502. :-) :-) :-) :-) My suggestion was not meant as any sort of limitation, just my take on what kind of result would be interesting; one way of interpreting the results. If an older processor doesn't do as well as the newer one, well, we expected that. But if an older one outperforms a newer one, there is something worth exploring there, a lesson to be learned about an improvement really wasn't. Bill.

26 years, 10 months

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Has anybody heard from Wirehead?

by bill＠chipware.com

Hate to use the list for this purpose but he doesn't seem to be responding to any email lately. Does anybody know why? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink

26 years, 10 months

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Semi OT: Twitching Mac pointer

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Has anyone ever seen a pointer on a Mac start to twitch? Mine seems to have started jiggleing back and forth slightly. Really disconcerting. Any ideas on if this is the mouse, or the machine :^( It seems to have something to do with how the cord is twisted, so I'm suspecting that the wires are getting a little frayed :^( When I smooth the cable out, it seems to stop. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 10 months

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DEC BC11A-15 Cable

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

>Am I correct that this is used to connect the UNIBUS backplane in one >chassis to a UNIBUS backplane in another chassis? Yes. Do you need any? I have several different lengths here. The -15 is the length in feet IIRC. Dan

26 years, 10 months

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heads up; OSI Challenger 1P

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I would call 115V 30A a common business circuit; it's certainly exceedingl <common on minicomputer power controllers. What else do folks plug the <Twist-N-Locks on their DEC 861C power controllers into? Special. Most places where I've seen systems installed for the first time that circuit had to be added. Even at DSG, PK3 and the Mill I had to have facilities add circuits for some things as that was not the normal distribution in the lab areas. My reference was that the average business and building unless prepped will only have 15 or maybe 20A outlets in place. Older buildings those will be in short supply. Then again NYC is where I have most of that experience. Allison

26 years, 10 months

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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<generator set up to drive a fast rise time buffer amp (so I can get a <reasonable amount of current) what else do I need to do to verify that I'v <successfully "flipped" the device. (My first guess would be a garden <variety compass) first you need a waveform that looks like this.... _____|-----|_____________ _______+I |_____| -I And put about one turn through the ferrite or steel under test. Then you'll need a second 1-2 turn loop hooked to the scope. You'll know the right waveform when the signal starts showing a huge amplitude difference as switches. Allison

26 years, 10 months

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Power connectors

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

>First, to get common names: >Hot = one Phase >Neutral = Protective Ground >Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the 'generator') That explains the confusion. In the US: Hot is one phase and in single phase systems you can and do have 2 hots. Neutral is what you are refering to as ground. The starpoint for both single and 3 phase. Ground is the protective / frame ground. The protective ground (ground in US codes) is not allowed to normally carry any current. It should be able to be temporarly disconnected and not create a hazardous condition. >Second, do I understand that US appliances got fuses on both wires >and both are switched ? On 240 volt equipment yes. The 120 volt plugs are defined with distinct Hot, Neutral and ground pins. I am familiar with your plugs also and have wondered how hot / neutral definitions are handled. Think of US 120V plugs like UK plugs just smaller and without fuses in them. >Over here in Germany only one wire is >switched and protected with a fuse, althrough it is not defined >which one is the 'hot' line, since our connector is symetrical >- there is no way to insert the plug in a way where the Hot and >the Ground side is defined - Our plug isn't inherited from the >DC times, but rather a new design when 220V AC became standard >in the 30s, to fit the needs of (and only of) AC Eq. The US did not used to make a distinction between hot and neutral until about 30 years ago when they added the "protective" ground pin. Now they are keyed. If you look closely at a receptacle, one blade is wider - neutral, The narrower blade is Hot and the round pin is protective ground. Some "equipment" uses only 2 wires. The blades and often one is larger to assure that it is polarized correctly. These polarized plugs have come into common usage in the last 20 years. Dan

26 years, 10 months

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Power connectors

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> >First, to get common names: >> >Hot = one Phase >> >Neutral = Protective Ground >> >Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the >> 'generator') > >> That explains the confusion. In the US: >> Hot is one phase and in single phase systems you can and do have 2 hots. >> Neutral is what you are refering to as ground. The starpoint for both >> single and 3 phase. >> Ground is the protective / frame ground. Yes. In the UK, "Hot" is usually referred to as "Live", and until 1992 this was the official term. In 1992 the term was changed to "Line", so that the phrase "Live parts" could be introduced to mean any conductor connected to the electrical supply (i.e. not including the protective ground, which is called "Earth") >> >Second, do I understand that US appliances got fuses on both wires >> >and both are switched ? >> On 240 volt equipment yes. > > Ahh ja - we also use fuses in each 'Hot' wire - so if you have a > 3~ installation, 3 fuses are to be installed _and_ they have to > be tied (mechanical), so if one blows all 3 will go off. In the UK it is similar, although I don't think there is a requirement for fuses to break all three phases for a fault on one. Since the US has many 240V centre-tapped-to-ground installations, 240V would have fuses in both lines (both hot) but none in neutral. ISTR the neutral wire in some 240V equipment (cookers are an example that springs to mind) is used instead of protective ground, which makes me a little uneasy. >> >Over here in Germany only one wire is >> >switched and protected with a fuse, althrough it is not defined >> >which one is the 'hot' line, since our connector is symetrical >> >- there is no way to insert the plug in a way where the Hot and >> >the Ground side is defined - Our plug isn't inherited from the >> >DC times, but rather a new design when 220V AC became standard >> >in the 30s, to fit the needs of (and only of) AC Eq. Hans, I think you've gone some way to answering your own question here. See below. >> The US did not used to make a distinction between hot and neutral until >> about 30 years ago when they added the "protective" ground pin. Now they >> are keyed. If you look closely at a receptacle, one blade is wider - >> neutral, The narrower blade is Hot and the round pin is protective ground. >> Some "equipment" uses only 2 wires. The blades and often one is larger to >> assure that it is polarized correctly. These polarized plugs have come into >> common usage in the last 20 years. Ah. That explains some sockets that I saw when over there last year. > Strange, but common - I don't know any reason why the system has > to be keyed, I always assumed the US development of keyed plugs > was triggered by old DC systems (since in DC Eq. it is necersarry > to know the orientation), but not a new addition. Strange, we > dropped all orientationwhen switching to AC (with Protective > Ground). Could anyone give give a reason why the system has > to be keyed _IF_ a Protective Ground is included (other than > define the Protective Ground pin) ? Because, without Protective > Ground a definition of Neutral is essential, but with, no longer. Because the fuse and/or switch _in the equipment_ has to be on the hot/live side of the supply. Otherwise a blown fuse - because of a short circuit - could leave the equipment with the hot supply still connected to whatever shorted out. Which could be the chassis... Also, at least in the UK, some old equipment had neutral solidly bonded to the chassis and no protective ground. This is common on valved (tubed) radios and things. ISTR that here the fuse was generally on the chassis side, so that when the fuse blew, the chassis would no longer be connected. Still not really safe, since the chassis would be connected to the other side via the heaters of all the valves, and these typically pass 100mA to 300mA at mains voltage, or more if they're cold. Philip.

26 years, 10 months

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heads up; OSI Challenger 1P

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

><>that were clearly under 1.4kw. The codes are aimed at providing reasonabl ><>power. Here a 15A/115v is the nominal and 115V/20A is a max >< ><No, it isn't. I have several 115V 30A circuits in my computer room - ><this being an extremely common rating on the power controllers used ><in smaller DEC systems - and looking at the codes and the Hubbell catalog ><it would seem that 60A circuits are standard things as well. >I should have qualified that as common residential and business circuits. I would call 115V 30A a common business circuit; it's certainly exceedingly common on minicomputer power controllers. What else do folks plug the Twist-N-Locks on their DEC 861C power controllers into? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 10 months

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heads up; OSI Challenger 1P

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

Be carefull doing this. All foreign 240 mains that I have worked with have been 240 between hot and neutral. This works out to be 416 phase to phase on 3 phase systems. What you will be doing is 240 between 2 hots. This can and will cause problems with a lot of supplies that expect the neutral to be at / near ground. I have several isolation transformers that I use for all the UK equipment I service and they all are wired for 240 Hot to neutral output. Also be careful what electrician you get to set it up for you. I have seen plenty of them manage to wire them wrong. I have even had to explain to them how to wire a buck / boost transformer only to have them fuse it for isolation ratings. >Here's how I'm avoiding this problem for my collection: I'm moving into a >new house and getting 220 installed where my stuff it going to be >located.. since it's right where the breaker panel is, it's not going to >cost much at all... so if the computer in question is going to be located >in a basement or wherever the breaker panel is, you don't even need a >transformer... just get an electrician, friend, or do it yourself.. > >Kevin >

26 years, 10 months

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Power connectors

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> First, to get common names: > Hot = one Phase > Neutral = Protective Ground > Ground = Ground (the starpoint on 3 phases connected to earth at the 'generator') > Hot and Ground are the basic wires to tap power, Wrong... HOT and NEUTRAL provide the power legs. Earth Ground is only for protection and does not carry any power. The power company generates three phase because it is more efficient. However, in most residential areas they only provide a single phase. It doesn't make economic sense for them to string three wires when a single phase will suffice. The single phase (high voltage) is fed into a simple center tapped transformer where it provides 240 VAC for high power appliances and 2-phases each with 120 VAC for lighting and general use. || <---------- 120 VAC (HOT) ----------> || < > || < HV > || <---------- Neutral > || < ----------> || < || <---------- 120 VAC (HOT) In the early days, it was common for manufactures to use the device chassis or frame as a conductor. They would tie the Neutral wire to the chassis (under the assumption that the potential was near 0V) and save a few pennies in the manufacturing process. The problem was, it was possible to put the plug in the socket upside-down. This meant the chassis was tied to the hot leg and you could get electrocution just touching the device. In the 50's and 60's it was quite possible to get shocked by your TV by just turning it on! Today, most devices have polarized plugs so that can't happen. The neutral line should NEVER be fused. If that fuse happened to blow and the one on the HOT(s) leg didn't, the device would still be hot (even with a blown fuse). This would cause an unsafe condition. Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 10 months

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heads up; OSI Challenger 1P

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

>Tony wrote: >> No. The US mains is 234V centre-tapped. It's not part of a 3-phase system >> (at least not normally) > >Except in the sense that the incoming "single phase" power is derived >from two out of three phases somewhere higher up in the distribution >hierarchy. The utility company doesn't generate different "single phase" >power for residential customers. It is taken from 1 hot (13 to 14KV) of the 3 phase grid. Dan

26 years, 10 months

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