- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Just doing some more testing, as I wanted to see if I could successfully retrieve data from floppies with the system wanting to crash after a minute. I discovered something REALLY ODD. It crashes after a minute, BUT that is a minute after there has been no activity with the RX50. This is so wierd, however, if I can't find a solution, I think this is a behavior that I can actually live with. Besides since it sounds like this might be a problem with the version of RT-11 I'm running, I suspect I'm stuck with it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 3 months

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My own thoughts on surplus...

by max82＠surfree.com

Before you flame me about this e-mail, read this disclaimer: what is in this may be construed as heresy to the religion of this mailing list. I'm not being heretical. I am a very curious person, and I like to deal with machines, sometimes even build my own. Below are my observations of society at large, and the explanations which fit. It does not reflect on classic computer collecting and other hobbies to which you may be partial. Original message from Bruce Lane: > 1). The "PC Revolution." The advent of PCs did a lot to bring cheap >computing power into the hands of home users. The problem here is that >consumer pressure pushed PCs from well-built reliable systems into cheesy >'commodity' electronics that could be quickly and easily mass-produced. You mean, "it pushed companies". Home users used IMSAIs, PETs, Apple ][s, TRS-80s, and other cheesy, easily mass-produced machinery, and before that they simply didn't use anything. > Why? Because those who might have gotten into the field as a hobby settled >for buying consumer-grade crap off-the-shelf, no matter how cheesily it >might have been built, instead of modifying existing equipment, or building >their own device. Well, consider that at a certain time, building computers was a trend. A lot of people did it, a lot of people enjoyed it. Now, certain other computer-related things are trendy, and a lot of people do them and enjoy them. I don't think that this can be blamed on the PC revolution, I think it should be considered the natural flow of things. By the same token, a lot of people now work on Web design. This will lessen when web design has evolved to a formulaic, mechanical task (it's already happening). Cheesy consumer-grade crap cannot be built on a kitchen table these days. Nobody would build a PCI VGA card when one can be bought for a lower price. > 2). Schools: The labels of 'geek,' 'nerd,' and other such epithets have >been flying around our public school system for decades, along with a >social climate that, for reasons I've still not figured out, seems to >actively discourage curiousity, hands-on engineering skills, and pursuit of >interests in the physical sciences. For one thing, don't start blaming the problems of your hobby on public schools. Secondly; I haven't heard those labels at my school, mostly because they're not used. They're not used because it's no longer reasonable to BE a geek. Sir Lancelot was quite useful in his age, but if he came into an army recruitment center today, people would see him as Don Quixote. His approach is no longer valid. The fact that curiosity is discouraged is very true, and a very important point. The reason why is a blend. Most kids haven't a clue why they're forced to learn what they learn, and they say that they'll never need it again. When they become teachers, therefore, they have no idea why they're teaching what they teach. And so, when a student displays curiosity, the teacher sees it as his job not to harvest curiosity, but to make sure that the student is learning what he's supposed to, just for the sake of learning (I do speak from experience). When I have seen a piece of equipment which I wanted to know more about in my school's science lab, the teachers often display a strong desire to chase me out of the lab, or the entire school if it's after school hours. Of course, from a social viewpoint, this has an excellent use: it keeps people in power, it keeps corporations making money, without a whole lot of challenge. This has (or so I've heard) been different during the space race days, when it was necessary to have as many scientists as possible working on the rockets.

26 years, 3 months

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RQDX3 as third controller under RT-11

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>OK, I've run a bunch of tests the last few hours while writing this up (and >spending a lot of the time with the troubles at work). I have found one >setting on the RQDX3 that I'm not sure about. Should I have the LUN set, >and if so to what? Actually in this case identifying the jumpers to jumper >might be helpful, as I'm using a scan of the pages dealing with the RQDX3, >and don't have actual doc's on it. What I do have isn't clear at all about >LUN's. I think I should either not have it set, or set it to 4 or 8, >but.... Some operating systems will insist that unit numbers on one MSCP controller not duplicate those found on another. RSTS/E is picky about this, but RT-11 isn't - you can start the unit numbers from wherever you want. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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RQDX3 as third controller under RT-11

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>The thing really wierd about this system, and one of the main reasons I >call it a mutant beast is the following: > >Controller CSR Vector Purpose >Viking QDT 172150 154 Both Hard Drives are on this board >WQESD 160334 150 Bootstrap (that's all it does) >RQDX3 160354 144 RX50 There's no real need for RT-11 to know about the existence of the WQESD, if there aren't any drives there. I'd do a SET DU:CSR2=160354 and map any other ports to unused CSR's and see if that helps. If you ever want to get rid of your WQESD, let me know - I *love* them - they're wonderfully configurable controllers, and particularly good under RT-11 as you can get 8 bootable OS's per drive. >After one minute, I get the following: > @134606 ... >I think it's always at 134606, but the minds a little fuzzy at the moment, Which monitor - FB? XM? SJ? If you do a SHOW MEM (on a running system, clearly!) where does 134606 fall? Which version of RT-11? RT-11 5.3 had some seriously screwy problems with the DU driver in some situations, and the early 5.4's had some serious difficulties. 5.4G isn't so bad, but not as good as 5.5 or later. >I'm working on this while working on problems at work, and it's just a >little late. Anyone have any ideas? My plan is to normally have DU7: set >to PART=3 of UNIT=1, and only switch it to the RX50 when I need to use a >floppy drive. Are you running any foreground jobs simultaneously? TCP/IP, maybe? Does the crash happen if you don't start up the foreground jobs? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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bill@chipware.com

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I don't know of one on the net. After a lot of searching, the guy I got <the Check WWW.IMSAI.NET he's trying to get schematics up. so far he only has a few. If not put in a search for burskys book. <IMSAI from found his schematics. We have a scanner at work. I'll see <if I can get a good scan of it this week and email it to you. Also get it to FF (imsai.net) for posting. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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Another Question on Codar Clock

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

The Codar Clock board has a jumper to turn the battery power on and off for the board. What good is this? Is this just a way to save the battery life when the board isn't in a system? Is the board any good without the batteries? It doesn't seem to be, but... Considering I've no idea how ancient the batteries are, they amazingly enough function well enough for me to be able to turn the system off for a short period of time and back on. Not sure if they're strong enough for longer periods. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 3 months

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My own thoughts on surplus...

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

I practically grew up with the surplus market. I've been buying and selling stuff related to it for nearly 20 years. I'd like to take a moment and add my own thoughts to the thread. Bear in mind that said thoughts are the product of late-night ramblings after a long day. Take them however you please, or ignore them. I won't mind either way. I hate to say it, but these days it all comes down to money. Many of the real 'tinkerers' of years past are gone, and some of those tinkerers, I'm convinced, ran (or helped to run) surplus stores during earlier (and, IMO, somewhat happier) times. Now, greed is running rampant, and its not limited to the surplus field either. Anyway... back in the 70's and early 80's, deals that most of us would consider pretty darn good were relatively easy to come by in both computing and military surplus hardware. It was not at all uncommon for dealers to help out folks they knew were truly interested, even if it meant selling something intact for a little less than they might have been able to get if they scrapped it out. During the late 80's to now, that mindset seemed to undergo a radical change. Surplus stuff was, and is, still available, but prices have shot through the roof in many cases, while the variety of stuff, and the quality thereof, have declined significantly. I blame this mainly on two things: The "PC Revolution" and the prevalent attitudes in our public school system. 1). The "PC Revolution." The advent of PCs did a lot to bring cheap computing power into the hands of home users. The problem here is that consumer pressure pushed PCs from well-built reliable systems into cheesy 'commodity' electronics that could be quickly and easily mass-produced. Such mass production and cheap availability removed much of the incentive folks once had to learn about basic electronics, digital circuitry, etc. This means demand for certain types of surplus, such as component parts and some types of test gear, slacked off. Why? Because those who might have gotten into the field as a hobby settled for buying consumer-grade crap off-the-shelf, no matter how cheesily it might have been built, instead of modifying existing equipment, or building their own device. In short: Somewhere along the line, quality, serviceability, functionality, and longevity became less important than cosmetic appearance and ease of operation. Surplus places are often choked with equipment that was never designed to last more than a couple of years. 2). Schools: The labels of 'geek,' 'nerd,' and other such epithets have been flying around our public school system for decades, along with a social climate that, for reasons I've still not figured out, seems to actively discourage curiousity, hands-on engineering skills, and pursuit of interests in the physical sciences. Fewer people in the sciences means fewer would-be engineers and technicians. This also means fewer people who are likely to want to tinker with anything other than "politically correct" technology (again, PCs, because they're often plug-and-pray). Where I'm going with this: Demand for 'commodity' surplus (PC parts) shoots on past demand for equipment that may be more reliable, or more rewarding as far as gaining a virtually free technical education goes, but that actually requires some degree of technical skill to repair or use. I believe these attitudes have spawned a new generation of surplus dealers who, in many cases, know darn little about what they may have except how much they can make off it if they scrap it, or sell the parts to another reseller. Greed is, unfortunately, running rampant, and many good machines have suffered, and likely will continue to suffer, as a result. The best possible thing I think we can all do is keep rescuing what you can. Keep educating those who are curious about what you do, why you do it, and why those who are curious should be interested in tech history. If you meet up with someone who shows interest in the field, point them in a good direction to develop it! The worst possible thing I think any of us can do is alienate the very people who have access to "classic" equipment, and the power to decide what's done with it. This includes spewing vitriol at dealers via E-mail or in person, or treating what any of us might consider a "dumb" question from a curious youngster or adult as just that. As has been said before, "The only truly stupid question is the one that you keep to yourself." There are, and will always be, exceptions. The fellow who brought out a perfectly usable piece of gear, only to beat it to bits with a sledgehammer in front of the buyer, should be shown no mercy whatsoever. There's just no excuse for wanton destruction or waste in the name of spite. People who show little interest in a system other than "Can it run Windows?" may be beyond help. HOWEVER... I would not be sitting here now and typing this had it not been for several very wise and patient people who inspired me to pursue electronics as both a hobby and career. If I can, within my lifetime, inspire even one other person to follow a similar course, and to fight back against peer pressure, I'll be a happy camper. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 3 months

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IMSAI docs online?

by bill＠chipware.com

> Is there a scan of the IMSAI hardware manual online anywhere? Uh, "The Hardware Manual" doesn't seem to exist. There are manuals for the individual components by the board. I now have originals for the front panel (CPA), the power supply, the 8085 CPU board (MPU-B), and one of the floppy controllers (DIO-C). It looks like the imsai.net guy is trying to put stuff up. I'll scan what I have as I get the time and access to the scanner and send it to him. Bill Sudbrink

26 years, 3 months

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IMSAI docs online?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Is there a scan of the IMSAI hardware manual online anywhere? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99]

26 years, 3 months

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Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 8/21/99 9:51:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time, aknight(a)mindspring.com writes: > In spite of the pros/cons about the lawyer who turned > over his Altair for a WinPC, one good thing (I think) > that came out of this contest is publicity/awareness regarding > the preservation of classics. Case in point is that > when I got home last night and finally had a chance to > read yesterday's local paper, in the business section there was > an article about the Dell contest and the museum, including a photo > of one of the curator (David Weil) trying to bring up a Commodore PET. > While I wasn't surprised to hear about the contest & museum > on the 'net, I was quite surprised to read about it in a > local paper here in central North Carolina (right there next > to the news about Red Hat). It was an Associated Press article, > so it is bound to have appeared in other papers nationwide. > > FWIW, the article says that the museum has 200 "pieces", including > a 360 mainframe, "the KIM Homebrew computer, a kit which sold for > $25 ..." (I wonder if they dropped a zero), and a "Royal > Precision Vacuum Tube Computer" - described as being built in > 1963, with 113 vacuum tubes (sounds like a small number to me), > drom memory, disk, & paper tape reader. The article also said > there was some kind of storage disk from 1965 that was the > size of a tractor-trailer tire, holding 2.5 Mbytes, and had > to be sandblasted to be erased. (Huh???). > > Anyhow, this kind of awareness is a good thing, IMO. > well, awareness of old computers IS good, but like any hobby, once the speculators get involved, it's not a hobby anymore. eventually (and unfortunately) once the general populace mistakenly thinks that ANY old computer is worth hundreds or thousands of dollars it will be hard to find anything collectable cheaply. i'm trying to get a complete mac plus with the original boxes from my neighbor, but she's got that mindset and probably wont sell it for any realistic price although i try to downplay any investment value in computers.

26 years, 3 months

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bill@chipware.com

by bill＠chipware.com

> Someone asked me for help with his IMSAI box, including the front panel with > which you've recently done battle. Do you have a schematic available in > some machine-readable form? I'd like to help this guy but it's a bootstrap > situation. Until at least one or two things are functioning, you're working > blind. Yea, tell me about it! > If you could send or point me to a machine-readable schematic of this FP, > I'd be better able to encourage this fellow. I'd rather not foist him off > on you. I don't know of one on the net. After a lot of searching, the guy I got the IMSAI from found his schematics. We have a scanner at work. I'll see if I can get a good scan of it this week and email it to you. Bill Sudbrink

26 years, 3 months

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Another Question on Codar Clock

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>See, for source code and documentation, >> >> ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/codar/ >Cool, Thanks Tim! Guess it's a good thing I wanted to use it on my RT-11 >system though :^) You'll find that the file CCSUBS.MAC is specifically for RSX-11. It also has a nice little table at the top, summarizing some of the programming differences between the Codar 101/102/120/150/151 models. >The Codar Clock board has a jumper to turn the battery power on and off for >the board. What good is this? Is this just a way to save the battery life >when the board isn't in a system? > >Is the board any good without the batteries? It doesn't seem to be, but... I have several different Codar boards, and they all have batteries set up slightly differently. I *think* my 120 has two independent sets of batteries, with a jumper to select which one is being used, to allow you to change batteries without disrupting the clock. >Considering I've no idea how ancient the batteries are, they amazingly >enough function well enough for me to be able to turn the system off for a >short period of time and back on. Not sure if they're strong enough for >longer periods. If they're like my Codar 120, they're lithium batteries, and good for 7 years or so. I got a new set from Radio Shack about two and a half years ago. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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More (Heavy Duty) DEC Pro Docs Available

by djenner＠halcyon.com

You gotta be serious to want these. (a) They're heavy. (b) They're hard core. DEC Professional 300 Series Developer's Tool Kit Nine, 8.5"x11" three-ring binders full of everything you ever wanted to know about developing P/OS (aka RSX-11M+) applications on the DEC Pro. These are all Version 2.0 of the PRO/Tool Kit. You can get almost all the software (last version, 3.2) at ftp.update.uu.se or metalab.unc.edu. The only exception may be the Fortran compiler, which may be available there? (It does include MACRO.) These will take up about two banker's boxes to ship and probably will cost $20-$30 UPS Ground. I will add on a couple of bucks for packaging. If more than one person wants it, I will give preference to someone with something to trade: other DEC Pro hardware or software, or PDP-11/Q-Bus hardware or software/docs. Let me know if you're interested. Here is a detailed inventory of what is included: Professional Tool Kit PRO/Tool Kit Installation Guide and Release Notes Command Language and Utilities Manual RSX-11M/M-PLUS RMS-11 Utilities Manual Volume 1, Introduction Host Tool Kit Installation Guide and Release Notes Tool Kit User's Guide Tool Kit Reference Manual FMS-11/RSX Release Notes PRO/FMS-11 Documentation Supplement FMS-11/RSX Software Reference Manual Volume 2, Video Terminal Subsystem Manual CORE Graphics Library Manual PRO/GIDIS Manual Volume 3, Task Builder RSX-11M/M-PLUS Task Builder Manual Volume 4, P/OS System & TMS P/OS System Reference Manual TMS Programmer's Reference Manual Volume 5, PRO/RMS-11 PRO/RMS-11: An Introduction PRO/RMS-11 MACRO Programmer's Guide RSX-11M/M-PLUS RMS-11 User's Guide Volume 6, MACRO Program Development IAS/RSX-11 ODT Reference Manual Supplement IAS/RSX-11 ODT Reference Manual PDP-11 MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual Guide to Writing a P/OS I/O Driver and Advanced Programmer's Notes Volume 7, PRO-DECnet PRO/DECnet Tool Kit Release Notes Introduction to DECnet PRO/DECnet Tool Kit Installation Guide PRO/DECnet Programmer's Reference Manual Pro/Tool Kit FORTRAN-77 Pro/Tool Kit FORTRAN-77 Installation Guide and Documentation Supplement Language Reference User's Guide Object Time System All the binders are the gray originals except for the FORTRAN volume, which is an orange binder.

26 years, 3 months

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DEC Rainbow/colour monitor

by cdrmool＠interlog.com

I've gone through a number of old reviews of the Rainbow including the October 1984 issue of "Popular Computing" and see no mention of a touch screen. From my knowledge there was a choice of three monochrome monitors -amber, green, and white, and a colour monitor. Graphics modes also available. If there was a touch screen monitor available, I will have to alter my wish list. colan ____________________________________________________________________ Vintage Computer Collectors List and Info: http://members.xoom.com/T3C Mail us at: T3C(a)xoommail.com

26 years, 3 months

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Q-Bus Codar Clock

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Cool, Thanks Tim! Guess it's a good thing I wanted to use it on my RT-11 >system though :^) Have to give this a try once I get my floppy problem >solved. Though now that I've got TCP/IP working floppy support is less >important. About a year ago, I received from someone who had moved into the Mill complex in Maynard, *the* pdp-11/73 which had, until DEC moved out of the mill, monitored building temperatures and controlled various bits of the heating/cooling system. (It still has all the code on it, in source form no less -- MicroPower Pascal)... It has one of the Codar boards in it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2 (but way OT)

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

I wrote: > > We put the internationally awe-inspiring name ACME on ours ;>) Tony Duell replied: > The only place those letters should appear in electronic equipment is on > a particular type of tuning indicator. That's funny! I'll be sure to rush down to city hall monday morning to change our company name! How about: Intelligent Machine Store of America, Inc. -- then we cound brand our systems "IMSAI" ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 3 months

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Q-Bus Codar Clock

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>While digging through my spares a couple days I came across a very >interesting looking card. > >CODAR TECHNOLOGY INC. > >MODEL 120 CALENDAR CLOCK >ASM 951-1200 REV B >COPYRIGHT 1987 MADE IN USA > >Does anyone have any information on this card, and what OS's it can be used >with. Does it require special software? See, for source code and documentation, ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/codar/ You'll find the original distribution files (from README.1ST): The Model 120 Calendar Clock Source Kit contains: 1) files to build the programs STIME and RTIME, which set the calendar clock and initialize your operating system's date and time, respectively, RTIME . COM RT11/TSX-Plus command file STIME . MAC Source for STIME for all RT11/TSX-Plus systems RTIME . MAC Source for RTIME for RT11 V4.0 and later (and TSX-Plus) 2) subroutines used by RTIME and STIME to read and set the calendar clock, CCSUBS . MAC Source for subroutines used by RTIME as well as the file CODAR.DIFF, which has the Y2K patches I did a few years back to the sources. Now that you've got TCP/IP working under RT-11, I'll also post my "NBSTIM" source - it goes out and queries a National Bureau of Standards time server for current UTC time and date over the network, converts it to local time, and uses it to check or set the -11's clocks. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Sure, but the Dell machine is worth considerably more at the moment. So <it's a good deal. If he's going for the long term investment, he could <sell it immediately and re-invest the money in 4 more Altairs...

26 years, 3 months

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bill@chipware.com

by edick＠idcomm.com

Someone asked me for help with his IMSAI box, including the front panel with which you've recently done battle. Do you have a schematic available in some machine-readable form? I'd like to help this guy but it's a bootstrap situation. Until at least one or two things are functioning, you're working blind. If you could send or point me to a machine-readable schematic of this FP, I'd be better able to encourage this fellow. I'd rather not foist him off on you. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 4:05 PM Subject: IT'S ALIVE! (IMSAI) >I meant to post this Tuesday, but things got busy. >My IMSAI is up with the front panel, CPU and >memory card. I can now reliably do all front >panel operations and can toggle in and run short >programs on either the 8K SRAM or 64K DRAM card >(only one in the box at a time). For those keeping >score: > >Replaced all chips on the front panel. All are >now socketed. > >Replaced two switches on the front panel. > >Routed several traces around burned or otherwise >damaged spots on the front panel. > >And... (this is the kicker) >Re-patched the MWRITE circuit. The original (and >incorrect) patch brought the SOUT signal to U25 >pin 5. What was actually required at U25 pin 5 >was NOT-SOUT. > >So next, I suppose, is to get the MIO working >(at least the serial port) so I can get a terminal >on this baby. If anybody has MIO REV.2 schematics, >it might make my life easier. To begin with, all the >chips on this card are socketed. It is a very neatly >and carefully done soldering job. The following chips >are missing: U8, U11, U30 and U34. I can see the >silkscreens for U30 (74LS32) and U34 (8T20), but the >sockets hide the silkscreens for U8 and U11. Does the >absence of these chips simply indicate that one of the >functions of this board is disabled? > >Thanks, >Bill Sudbrink

26 years, 3 months

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Damn fools (was Re: Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet)

by max82＠surfree.com

>Yes, this is politics. Just remember that its a good idea to have friends >in high places. Having enemies up there does no good to anyone, but with >a little responsibility, is easily avoided. Also known as "Don't burn your bridges behind you"...

26 years, 3 months

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Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>> > The Altair is being donated to the Computer Museum of America in Mesa <>> > California. <>> <>> La Mesa! <> <>Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters <>for saleable souveniers? < < Oh you've GOT to be kidding. Tell me you're not serious. < < -Dave McGuire I ask the question, not knowing the answer. I do hope I'm very mistaken. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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Parting out VAX 11/750

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Guys: There's a VAX 11/750 that will soon be parted out. If there are any tid-bits of this thing you want, please LMK via private e-mail. (Don't ask for the whole thing, it's the size of a small refrigerator, and weighs just as much). Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 3 months

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Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Is this the same Computer museum that parted out some PDP monsters <> for saleable souveniers? <> <> Allison <> < <I have a hazy recollection of that event, but I don't think(?) it is the <same one. This one exists in conjunction with Coleman College - computer <training. < I'm happy to hear that. TCM does not rank high on my list of, things to do to historical items. Preserving history, understanding it is very difficult and an active wholsale destruction of any machine for money is the same as tomb raiding for gold. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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FW: PDP11 documentation and test code on paper tape

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>>DEC PDP-11/20 DR11-C Engineering Drawings > 11/20 print sets!! AGH!! He's trying to confuse us: the DR11-C is *not* an 11/20. I think he has the DR11-C (M786+M105+M7821) print set, which is far, far way from an 11/20 (KA11) print set. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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Re. imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

Sooner or later, someone will bring in a TI "Speak-N-Spell" which was one of the most important mass-produced electronic toys of the '70's. Once they become rare enough that they bring a good price, lots of plastic-packaged electronics will appear, right along with those Ming-dynasty vases. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Re. imsai 2 >> > I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins it >> > for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have an >> > "antique computer" eposode. >> >> Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last year >> that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone locally here >> told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late for fear, >> move straight on ahead to loathing. > >Certainly on the UK version of the programme, somebody brought along a >Sinclair calculator, and one of the 'experts' said that these machines >were becoming ever more collectable. I've never seen any electronic >equipment on the programme apart from that, though. > >-tony >

26 years, 3 months

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Q-Bus Codar Clock

by edick＠idcomm.com

If I'm not mistaken, this one was built for us when I was with Martin Marietta, working on a JPL project to militarize uVAX-II hardware in our customized packaging. It works with VMS, and I doubt there was little else done with it in conjunction with our project. I worked on other parts of the system (rotating memory), but that company, located in Longmont, CO, I believe, may still be in business. Codar built the customized backplanes for us to use in our portable and extreme-temperature tolerant boxes, along with a few other odds & ends. I once was called upon to rectify a problem with one of their switch panels, which I did with a resistor array (a minor oversight). Dick -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 11:19 AM Subject: Q-Bus Codar Clock >While digging through my spares a couple days I came across a very >interesting looking card. > >CODAR TECHNOLOGY INC. > >MODEL 120 CALENDAR CLOCK >ASM 951-1200 REV B >COPYRIGHT 1987 MADE IN USA > >Does anyone have any information on this card, and what OS's it can be used >with. Does it require special software? > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 3 months

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Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine)

by edick＠idcomm.com

So . . . Linux will use the parallel port to turn on the coffee maker, but who'll fetch, measure, mix, and grind the beans? When does it clean out the coffee pot and put the old coffee in the house-plants? What about the filter? Hmmmm? Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine) >At 11:05 PM 8/16/99 -0400, LordTyran wrote: >> >>As stupid/crazy/cool as it seems, there is a Linux-Coffeemaker-HOWTO. >>Tells you how to use an SCR or a relay to hook up your coffee makes to >>your parallel port, add a /dev/coffeemaker entry (basically a ln to >>/dev/parX) and add a cron daemon entry to make your coffee each morning. > >X-10 stuff is more flexible and probably less expensive. I jumped >for the $6 promo news-ertised on Slashdot a few weeks ago, and have >been sorely tempted to buy more, so I guess the plan worked. The >offer is still up there. > >What? No one's going to stand up and defend the ice-cold can of >Diet Mountain Dew? > >- John >

26 years, 3 months

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HP2100 core memory problems

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Well, once again I come to the well for knowledge.....:) Seeking advice from those up on core memory I'm kinda lost on checking out the memory in my HP 2100. I have two 2100's, each with four 8K boards or 32k per machine. I had lots of parity errors so I lined up all eight 8K boards on the bench and reconfigured the memory controller for 8K total rather than 32K (test one board at a time). I put in one of the boards and ran a small memory test (not a diag tape, but a core memory test from the CE guide via the front panel).The core test has three "controlling" locations, one location for the first address to test, one for the last address, and then how many cycles per memory location. A cycle is defined as writing all zeros, read, and compare - then writing all ones, read, and compare all on a single location. Here's the symptoms. The full test of 8K takes about 2 hours (with a cycle of 3). On different boards it gets to different locations before the parity error halt. So far mostly at the middle or end, I don't recall it ever parity halting towards the beginning. I'll get a parity error halt on say location 012336 for example. I then manually go to the failing location and try storing different values in the location and reading them back out (all via the front panel). Most of the time this gives a parity error like you would expect. But - many times it doesn't. Then just for kicks I restart the diagnostic a few locations lower (like 012320 in this example) than the failing location. It fails right away usually (like location 012322), quite a few cells before the location which originally failed. This causes me great confusion, because it's actually now failing on addresses which previously tested OK just a few minutes ago on the previous test pass. Every 8K board I have exhibits this problem, but all at different locations. Supposedly both machines worked fine before they were put in storage 20 years ago, so these weren't picked up out of a junk heap or anything. Cosmetically they're beautiful inside and out. I've also tried switching the XY driver boards, the memory controller, etc. etc. but I can't seem to get anything stable enough to start intelligently swapping parts when every combination is bad. In case it matters, each 8K board is 17 bits per word (1 parity plus 16 data bits). Also, it isn't a complete failure - I've keyed in many other programs from the front panel and read in paper tapes (a suite of I/O tests and such) that all run fine so I know the system is somewhat coherent. I've checked the power supply for the memory cage and it's supposed to be 20 volts - my VOM came up with 20.48 ISTR, which is probably close enough I would think. Can anyone suggest a course of action or possible culprits in this situation? I suspect I can't see the forest for the trees anymore :) Thanks! Jay West

26 years, 3 months

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Re. imsai 2

by rcini＠msn.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:29:34 -0500, Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> wrote: >I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last {snip} >>Not to mention recent E-Bay prices. Amen to that. The recent prices are certainly an incentive for one to try his hand again. > And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? > Switches: 22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. >FP=$100. Maybe I have a warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was >expecting a lower number. >>I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he >>figured that these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob >>appeal. As Tim mentioned, my PS number is low. I was figuring on the included ATX PeeCee power supply. I'd bet the transformer alone in the old IMSAIs was *at least* the $50. I also agree with the snob appeal, although I don't know if it would be the "hand-made" part, or alternatively, about "it was made by the same guy who made the old ones." > I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only > have a non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target > audience. I would prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level > and interest to assemble one myself. >>Well that was the whole point, wasn't it, eh? You built it yourself >>because you a) Had more time than money or b) That's the only way >>you could get it. I dunno about you, but I certainly fell into the >>'more time than money' category (and *still* couldn't afford it). >> >>I believe his target audience has 'more money than {time | brains}'. >>I dunno Rich, I always figured you as a pretty smart guy. Maybe >>on a budget, too. Would be better just to buy the 'unique' bits, >>and piece one together yourself (utilizing the PSU of your choice). Thanks for the compliment :-) I wasn't focused on computers when the original IMSAI was available. I was about , dunno, maybe 11. So, I certainly didn't have the money. I did have time, though. Now, I have much less time and more money, but I'd still prefer to build my own. $$$ are always a concern, but the deal with my wife is what ever I make from freelance computer writing, I can use for my hobby. Sweet deal, huh?? A custom PS would be nice (I've always liked building power supplies). I wouldn't be opposed to piecing a system together myself, but by the time you piece together the HTF parts (such as the FP, the backplane, and the case), you have 70% of the unit. I think that an unassembled kit for $599 would be OK. >>BTW, what's wrong with your Horizon (just curious)? Don't really know. I have no info on some of the boards, so I don't know if the jumpers are set for the right addresses. I also can't verify that the backplane serial ports work, or even if the on-board ports work or floppy controller works. Power supply is good, though :). Basically I'm in the dark. I gave up last year because I started to renovate the basement. Now that that's done, this winter, I'll probably start fiddling with it again. Somewhere around here, I have a list of my boards I can send you. Most of the boards are Vector Graphics (ZCB, RAM, ROM), though. > Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think > that I'm prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional > machine. >>Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this >>'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's >>just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'. I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins it for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have an "antique computer" eposode. > If I were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could > restore it to functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one, > either. >>True, although this would be the way to go, assuming the price is >>right. Even if you just have a pile of old boards, as i said before, >>just get the 'unique' stuff, then fill in the gaps with off-the-shelf >>items. That's essentially what we did in the old days. This would be my ideal project. Just as long as the FP fascia is intact, I think that I could handle everything else. I have a huge box of random S100 cards just waiting for a working home... ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 3 months

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Comments? Proper way to (un)subscribe CLASSICCMP

by jon＠techniche.com

Can someone refresh my memory as to the proper procedure to subscribe & unsubscribe from this list? I need a break to catch up on my e-mail !! Thanks, Jon

26 years, 3 months

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Hacker tea (was Re: Late Nights and Caffeine)

by max82＠surfree.com

Brian L. Stuart wrote: > And bringing it full circle, Brazil is the name of the latest > research OS at Bell Labs from the same folks who brought you > UNIX. They seem to take great pride in naming systems with > names that make marketing cringe. The predecessor to Brazil > was Plan 9 after the infamous sci-fi movie Plan 9 From Outer > Space. Any data on this BrazilOS?

26 years, 3 months

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Q-Bus Codar Clock

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

While digging through my spares a couple days I came across a very interesting looking card. CODAR TECHNOLOGY INC. MODEL 120 CALENDAR CLOCK ASM 951-1200 REV B COPYRIGHT 1987 MADE IN USA Does anyone have any information on this card, and what OS's it can be used with. Does it require special software? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 3 months

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FW: PDP11 documentation and test code on paper tape

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Lots of useful goodies. I just wish he'd offered them up here first before dumping them on E-pay. Anyway, have a look... -=-=- <snip> -=-=- On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:49:35 +1700, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>Hi, >> >>For auction on ebay : >>DEC PDP-11/04 TRAP INSTRUCTIONS TEST PROGRAM >>DEC PDP-11/04 CPU TEST CODE ON PAPER TAPE >>DEC PDP RK11/RK05 PERFORMANCE EXERCISER CODE >>DEC PDP-11 M9301 M9400 BOOTSTRAP DIAG CODE >>DEC PDP-11/34 SYSTEM USER'S MANUAL >>DEC PDP-11/04 SYSTEM USER'S MANUAL >>DEC PDP-11 MS11-E-J MOS MEMORY maint. man. >>DEC M9301 PROM/BOOTSTAP/TERMINATOR card doc >>DEC PDP11/04 Engineering Drawings (complete) >>DEC business cards holder (came with PDP doc) >>DEC PDP-11 M9312 Engineering Drawings >>DEC PDP-11 M9312 Module technical manual >>DEC PDP-11/20 DR11-C Engineering Drawings >>DEC PDP-11 RK11-D Engineering Drawings >>DEC PDP-11 RK05J Engineering Drawings >>Check : >>http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=ebay%40cur… >> >>Thank you. >>s. >> >> >>* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * >>The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

26 years, 3 months

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Re. imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

You can't have it both ways, fellows. If you don't want the "old" stuff to become plentiful in the sense that there are viable copies available which, in a sense, water down the market, and hold down the prices, then eBay will set the prices, and you know what that means. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini <rcini(a)msn.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 5:06 AM Subject: Re. imsai 2 >On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:20:14 -0700 (PDT), Sellam Ismail ><dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> wrote > >> I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins >it >> for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have >>an "antique computer" eposode. > >>>Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last >>year >that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone >>>locally here told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too >late >>>for fear, move straight on ahead to loathing. > > Aw, crap...there goes the neighborhood. > >Rich > >----------------------------------- >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW7 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ ><---------------------------- reply separator > > > >

26 years, 3 months

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Re. imsai 2

by rcini＠msn.com

On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:20:14 -0700 (PDT), Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> wrote > I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. Ruins it > for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will have >an "antique computer" eposode. >>Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last >>year that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone >>locally here told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late >>for fear, move straight on ahead to loathing. Aw, crap...there goes the neighborhood. Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 3 months

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CLASSICCMP digest 870 -Reply

by cutler＠nmah.si.edu

I will be on vacation from Aug 23 to Sept 15 and will get back to you after that date. I apologize for the delay.

26 years, 3 months

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(for sale) MacWEEKs, Apple developer's CDs

by tom＠tgeller.com

Time for spring cleaning (yeah, yeah, I know I'm late). Here are some items bound to fascinate those interested in Apple and Macintosh history. * Two years of MacWEEK issues, Jan. 1996-Jan. 1998. Amazing stuff. * Five years (!) of Apple's Developer CD-ROMs. Load every System since 7.0! Tiptoe through the corpses of Dylan, OpenDoc, Rhapsody and PowerTalk! Both series are more or less complete, and in a San Francisco location. Available to the best offer. --Tom Geller tom(a)tgeller.com --- Tom Geller, San Francisco, http://www.tgeller.com Write for sign-up info for my mailing lists: (1) Personal news, (2) Business-related news, (3) Discussion about suing spammers.

26 years, 3 months

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Parting out VAX 11/750

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

The parts for the VAX 11/750 have been claimed; all involved parties will be notified of what turns up. Thanks Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 3 months

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Re. imsai 2

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> writes: >On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> I think that it's a load of crap. Old computers for the masses. >Ruins it >> for the rest of us. Next thing you know, the Antiques Road Show will >have an >> "antique computer" eposode. > >Um, from what I heard, someone on the Roadshow said within the last >year >that computers will become the next hot collectable. Someone locally >here >told me that (I didn't see the show myself). So it's too late for >fear, >move straight on ahead to loathing. It's the END OF the WORLD as we know it, (and I feel fine . . ). ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 3 months

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FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00

by therunk17＠earthlink.net

I just got the message, are they still available? If so, I'm interested and how big are the units? Ron ---------- >From: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Subject: FW: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 >Date: Tue, Aug 10, 1999, 10:31 AM > > Fellow here has some good VAXen stuff pretty cheap. Contact directly > if you're interested. > > -=-=- <snip> -=-=- > > On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT, in comp.os.vms you wrote: > >>>From: wetboy <wetboy(a)shore.net> >>>Subject: FS: mVaxII, mVax2000, grey wall - $50.00 >>>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >>>User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980618 (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) >>>Lines: 29 >>>Message-ID: <SETr3.1282$EG4.221700(a)news.shore.net> >>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:10 GMT >>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.233.85.1 >>>X-Complaints-To: abuse(a)shore.net >>>X-Trace: news.shore.net 934282930 192.233.85.1 (Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 EDT) >>>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:02:10 EDT >>>Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info(a)shore.net) >>>Path: > news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!165.87.194.248!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news.m axwell.sy > r.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail >>>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:785 >>> >>>MicroVax II: >>> >>> BA123 case >>> RD53 >>> 9 MB ram >>> TK50 >>> VMS 5.3 >>> >>>MicroVax 2000: >>> >>> RD32 >>> 6 MB ram (IIRC) >>> VMS 4.5B >>> >>> >>>VT320, LA75 >>> >>>Most of VMS 5.0 "grey wall" (some >>>notebooks later than 5.0). >>> >>> >>>All for $50.00 >>> >>>Pick up near Portsmouth, New Hampshire. >>> >>>E-mail me if you are interested. >>> >>> >>>-- Wetboy > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, > Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com > Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com > "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, > event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define > any of them..." > >

26 years, 3 months

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Unibus Grant COntinuity Cards

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

These are G727A's. ANybody need some? Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 3 months

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Whats this??

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

ANybody know what a Xeros X967 or X968 is? Is it historically important? ANybody need parts? It seems to be an 8085 based machine, but it's hard to tell for sure, with all of the rust. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 3 months

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To: Data General Fiends

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Guys: I spotted some 8" floppy drives that may have been used with the ECLIPSE. If anyone is interested in these, please contact me via private E-Mail. They are big drive units, two drives in the box, painted this 'airforce' blue color, with these funny 'doors' on them. The serial plates say they're model AF6030. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 3 months

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Still more PBX stuff.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<[CO wasn't talking to me?] < <Not sure how it determined it, but it sensed the CO wasn't there. <(Minor Network Alarm is what the panel indicated.) Probably what <you said. No loop voltage. Easyist thing to sense. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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Dell "Oldest PC" winner on zdnet

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I stumbled across the following link on the zdnet web site <about a lawyer with a MITS Altair 8800b who was awarded <Dell's prize in a contest for the "oldest working PC" : < <http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2317770,00.html < <The computer is going to a museum, and Dell gave <him a new computer. I remember the contest and kept my Horizon and explorere8085 out of the running as I wished to keep them. A PC would not a be a welcome exchange. Allison

26 years, 3 months

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Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, we're not quite there yet, though that fellow (what's his name . . . ), the CEO of Oracle, is promoting a situation in which you'd not buy software at all but would simply search for what you wanted, buy it "by the drink" over the net, and run it once, repeating the process, and paying for it each time you use it. I certainly hope that such a scenario is not where we're headed. The technology has been in front of us for some time, and what's prevented this so far is the FPGA vendors' tight hold on how to configure their products. Once that cat's out of the bag, someone will surely try this, since he can then incorporate his configuration generator into his software hierarchy. That will certainly put an end to the question of which CPU runs which application the best, since the application will then be integrated with the configuration of hardware which suits it the best. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 12:45 PM Subject: Re: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >At 11:04 AM 8/20/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >>I don't think we'll have to wait long for a situation to arise, in which one >>links to a site on the web, is fed a download of configuration data which >>defines how the system on which one's running is to be defined, then reads >>the code which will be executed on the specifically configured "hardware" >>environment. Instead of the hardware defining how the software must be >>configured, the software will define the way in which the hardware addresses >>its requirements. > >It's already here. The Transmeta CPU could work that way. >Field-programmable gate arrays (Xilinx chips) have existed for >many years, so who knows how they're being used. > >For example, the circa 1992 Video Toaster for the Amiga relied >heavily on these chips to perform real-time video manipulations. >Load a new transition, reprogram the array. > >- John >

26 years, 3 months

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M7865 question.

by ebrens＠dds.nl

Hello, It reads 'Unibus 2 word out' on the back, and the DEC module field guide doesn't provide with additional information. What is it used for ? thanks, Erikb.

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

Nope, what I'm referring to is the retail outlet of a "real" electronics supplier, e.g. Newark, etc. I haven't bought components from RS since the late '70's when we bought some regulators, I think there were several hundred because they were the only ones who could ship them promptly. We found after testing about a hundred, that none of the ones we tested were in tolerance. I have bought nibblers, a soldering iron, a neat little wirewrap tool for the briefcase (discontinued because it was too good) and a solder-sucker from RS since then, notice I remember EVERY item. Not one component is on the list. I'd almost wager that none of their 5% resistors fall within 5%. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:56 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> >> The joke is on the one who tries to buy from a "real" elelctronics shop, >> where 1/4-watt resistors cost upwards of a buck . . . and the first item on >> the list costs $100 because that's their minimum. > >That sounds like RatShack, not an electronics shop :-). Over here, >resistors cost 3p (say 5 cents) each in 10-off quantities (0.6W, 1%). > >The only time I've payed nearly a pound for a resistor is when it was >either precision (0.1% ones are a lot more expensive) or high power (50W >metal-cased ones, for example). > >-tony >

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2 (but way OT)

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 08/19/1999 5:57:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > But, by 'computer shop', I meant the sort of place that sells no-name PCs We put the internationally awe-inspiring name ACME on ours ;>) > The sort of place that will try to sell you a new printer rather than a > ribbon for your old one. Those places never sell useful spares like fans. I think I know the place you're referring to -- "You're in luck cause we only have one of these babies left . . . it was the floor model . . . my boss told me to find it a good home . . . somebody like you . . . can have it for $$$" Fortunately we have a great relationship with one of these establishments -- if they can't shake all the money out of someone by selling them a new box, they send them to us to repair their old unit. They also don't sell fans, odd cables, etc., but we do, and we sell stuff out of our junk bin every day >from their referrals. I guess they deserve their place in the food chain too. Anyway thanks for the clarification and I'm glad to know you don't paint us all with the same brush ;>) Glen Goodwin ACME Enterprises 0/0

26 years, 3 months

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imsal 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:58 PM Subject: Re: imsal 2 <snip> >> to claim you have an ALTAIR computer running in your basement then what's >> down there had best be ALTAIR stuff, not just an ALTAIR CPU in a Morrow box >> with a CCS FDC and a COMPUPRO serial board. > >Of course in the 'real world' it was very common to find a mix of boards >in a particular box. > >> >> If you have an Integrand box, I guess you can call your computer an >> Integrand no matter what's in it, since they only made the boxes, right? >> >> I think that's the mentality that drives the eBay prices up. If you have a >> VERY pretty Daimler Benz hood ornament, with Chevrolet wheels, a Ford >> engine, a BMW emblem on the rear bonnet of a Corvair, with a Corvette >> steering wheel, what do you call your car (not that those parts would play >> together) ? For the collector, it's VERY important that all the parts fit, >> not just essentially, but exactly. That means that if IMSAI made one >> (whatever that might be), your system isn't complete without it. > >But most collectors only seem to care about the name on the front... > >Suppose you had an Altair with Altair CPU, RAM, PROM, serial I/O, disks, >etc. And a no-name S100 box with Compupro CPU, Vector Graphic memory, >Micromation disk, Tarbell tape, CASU serial, etc. > >Now put all the Altair cards into the no-name box. And the other cards in >the Altair box. > >Which do you think would fetch the higher price on E-bay? > I would be surprised if the higher bid didn't go for the Imsai box, rather than the original card set, but, if your card set happened to be spotted by a "collector" he'd undoubtedly bid however much it took to get the boards he was lacking, even if he had to buy your whole set. If that was $10k more than the box, well, it depends on things other than your preference and mine. > >> If you restore your '57 Chevy with parts carefully sought out at the >> junkyards within a 1000 mile radius of your home, and with "real" parts and >> real lead in the body work, and original upholstery, etc, it's not the same >> as the one built from whatever after-market parts you could find. It may >> look good, but it isn't "real" is it? > >One point here, though, is that users (who were most often hackers at >that time) did use other cards when the machine was 'new'. It's not like >taking said car and putting (somehow) a modern Ford engine in it. It's like >taking the car and fitting a standard (for the time) tune-up kit - >something that plenty of owners (presumably) did. > >I feel there is a place in a collection for both 'as the manufacturer >intended' and 'as the users generally used' machines. A lot of museums >ignore the latter category, though, which could lead to a mistaken >impression as to what really went on. > You're right about that, Tony, but it's a good idea to keep in mind, at least when dealing with Altair and IMSAI, that the Altair stuff is, for the most part, the worst kind of junk, always was and always will be, yet it was good enough to function, sorta, and only after you fixed it, and, being first to do that, it is the "original" while IMSAI stuff which was, from what I've seen, about as good as any you could get, though the style was definitely "early TTL" style, with one-shots, and enough rough edges, design-wise, to raise your eyebrows from time to time. The difference is easily summed up in that the IMSAI was designed by someone who know how to make a circuit that worked while the guys who designed the MITS stuff only knew how to make a circuit. > Dick >

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

Tony, we have stores like that too, such as "CompUSA" or Circuit City. Even though their prices are often outrageously high for the "add-ons" such as mice or cables, their system prices are normally in line with other stores. They have a replacement parts/upgrade components counter where things like CPU fans, video boards, etc. are sold, but you have to bring your information with you. What you get there is not reliable. The thing that's insulting is that the prices of these items vary so wildly that one dares not to rely on being able to afford even a simple add-on without first knocking over the liquor store down the street. I saw an ad a couple of days ago while shopping for motherboards, and found a "bare bones" system consisting of a motherboard, CPU (300 MHz K6) enclosure, floppy drive, and power supply, for $100. This was nationally advertised over the web. I don't recall whether there was memory, a keyboard, video card, or a mouse, but I was so overwhelmed, I didn't even think to look. The local discounter wants that much for just the processor IC! Now, in today's high-volume, fast-paced market, I doubt there's any need for one to worry about the power supply wearing out before his hardware becomes obsolete. (These days that's when you can't even give it away any more or about a year, whichever comes first.) The cheapo fans and PSU's we've been kicking around generally last longer than that, and those fellows who have to set the priorities, e.g. high quality quiet fan in your computer vs. $15 per unit in their pocket, have no trouble at all with their decision. That certainly accounts for the presence of such low quality in the average computer. The "real" electronics houses here in the US operate on the notion that they provide what you buy. If you buy fewer than 5k pieces per week, then it's probably more like you buy what they provide, but you get the picture. If, out of the vast number of computer buyers out there, 1% kept them long enough to have problems enough with the fan noise, life, or PSU that they replaced them, grumling loudly as they went, there would be high quality replacements available. Unfortunately, when your fan dies or begins to make lots of noise, that corporate repair/installation fellow comes around and you get a new computer. Not too many average users complain about this. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:55 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> > > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement >> > > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. >> > >> > You don't get them from computer shops. You get them from _real_ >> > electronics shops/supply companies. It just so happens that they also fit >> > PC power supplies ;-). >> >> Tony, I resemble this implication! You have obviously never visited my >> *computer shop* :>) > >Correct, I haven't... > >OK, some shops in the UK sell both computer parts (cases, motherboards, >PSUs, etc) and electronic components. In fact most of the component shops >also sell computer parts. > >But, by 'computer shop', I meant the sort of place that sells no-name (or >worse still non-standard brand-name) PCs, packages software, etc. The >sort of place that will try to sell you a new printer rather than a >ribbon for your old one. Those places never sell useful spares like fans. > >-tony >

26 years, 3 months

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Still more PBX stuff.

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

I dragged some extensions out and plugged into it, they work fine. I can bounce inside calls around pretty easily. The extensions appear to have been numbered in an arbitrary order though. I'm gonna read the DLP books and see if I can change that without the MAAP box. Also, as for the 6 loops on the console - That's 6 lines for the console itself. The console can have 6 conversations going on it at the same time. The PBX seems to be able to switch as many calls as you have outside lines for. It does use relays, if I opened the front cover and dialed I could hear it click as it completed the call. I also let it sit and run for about 5 hours while we played a card game upstairs and it worked fine after running awhile. (But after about 10 minutes I did get a minor warning because the CO wasn't talking to me, which makes sense...) The next fun things to do are reprogramming the system to some sane values AFA line numbering and the outgoing lines, then finding a way to back up the OS tape, and the trying to connect it to the world. -------

26 years, 3 months

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Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)

by edick＠idcomm.com

RIGHT! You have removable hard drives, as I do, and probably have non-removable PROMs (FLASH-types) as well. Now, what to we call this stuff? Back to my original comment about semantics, other parts of the electronics industry and other industries, are calling the content of CD's and tapes "software" as more and more similarity becomes apparent to the public. Additionally, the legal system has begun to see them in the same way. The devices which define our computers are becoming defined more and more by what we used to call software, though now perhaps we should call it firmware, and yet the simple boundaries I once understood to support these definitions now have become blurred by the movement of what used to be firmware into volatile media and of what used to be "software" into non-volatile media, e.g. the PCMCIA Flash-disks I mentioned. I don't think we'll have to wait long for a situation to arise, in which one links to a site on the web, is fed a download of configuration data which defines how the system on which one's running is to be defined, then reads the code which will be executed on the specifically configured "hardware" environment. Instead of the hardware defining how the software must be configured, the software will define the way in which the hardware addresses its requirements. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 6:08 AM Subject: RE: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >> > > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> > > to kill you ;-) >> > Firmware? >> Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >> plugged in. > >Well, I own a removable harddisk (plugged in) - >I can grap it and remove it - >so Win98 is firmware ? > >As we might see, the terms are not that fixed as >we would loke it (also a reason why I hate all >this denglish tems - already fuzy terms from a >foreign language used without knowledge of their >orgin nor any concept for genuine meaning :( ). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist.

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

As was stated earlier, I must have been really lucky, because I go down to the lawfirm and upgrade their computers, usually every 18 months or so, usually in lots of 50. I've had disk drive problems, but those went away when WD stopped shipping their 31200 drives. Of the 18 I had there, after a year, the oldest had been replaced 4 times under warranty and the newest was on its 8th incarnation. That wasn't part of the "bare-bones" package. It was my first, and last, experience with LAN wiring, and I became pretty expert in maintaing Netware servers and installing Windows95. Their power supplies have failed at a less-than average rate, and the only problems have been with the monitors, which I didn't provide, though that's also been pretty minor. I don't normally do this sort of thing, but my lawyer, like other folks, knew I work in the computer-related electronics side of things, and was frustrated with his luck with the guys who specialize in outfitting businesses. Now that my legal problems have gone away, and they don't very badly want to pay my hourly rate, someone else is doing that stuff for them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero(a)cgocable.net <jpero(a)cgocable.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 11:11 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:12:24 EDT >> Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >> From: Glenatacme(a)aol.com >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 > >> In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> edick(a)idcomm.com writes: >> >> > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last >> > time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The >> > motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, >> > keyboards, etc, are still in place. >> >> You were very lucky. > >Did number of parts belly up or get troublemaker big time and you had >to make lot of runs to that law business? > >True to every situation that we saw or heard about businesses and >buyers who dealt with a untruthworthy resellers / wholesalers. When >that happens and that place will tell themselves "We had that so much >troubles, that we'll blacklist that shop that barebones came from >there and buy everywhere else." And time goes by and that shop >finally finds out why you got blacklisted by rumor, from there people >spreads the reputation around. Reason is that shop didn't act in time >when problems crops up and move on to truthworthy sources for >computer stuff. Some worst ones will "swap" one for another equally >bad parts, some to be praised did something right and paid terrible >price to fix the troubles. > >> What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems >> together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it >> home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system >> it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy >> from him or her: >> >> "The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." >> >> "Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the >> problem." >> >> "But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're >> properly installed." >> >> "Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in >> the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is >> bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." >> >> This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to >> modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming >> problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. > >Exactly what happened with that tyan board flakiness and Asus >board parallel thing from these worthless resellers. They wanted the >money and gave the buyer the old bricks. > >Saw remarked CPUs for real >with my eyes. Looks like real thing but serial #'s didn't jibe with >original cpu maker's records with this actual markings. That was >from shop A. Tipoff: thickness when mounting heatsink to it. > >This story; here is it and this is true story with all identifiers >mangled. A instutition with very limited $ bought a machine from a >Shop A loaded with junk and old parts as new computer (major >illegal). Utterly unreliable and parts is of clones of clones >of mystious origin type like that russian wooden dolls. That machine >came in with unhappy instutition's owner to trustworthy Shop B. >Shop B smelled rat then made few calls around to major makers like >AMI bios to verify key items etc and police came in to pick up that >bits. Shop B footed the cost and trouble to rebuild a good machine >to even unhappy instutition owner who lost $ on that junk who wished >they didn't blown their savings on. > >Hope anyone don't get caught in between like this especially to any >resellers and owners. One other shady shop was ground into dirt and >new management but the sigma still from that past still lingers even >that reformed shop did ok years later. > >> >> Glen Goodwin >> 0/0 > >Wizard

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

Boy! I guess I WAS lucky. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme(a)aol.com <Glenatacme(a)aol.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:13 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >edick(a)idcomm.com writes: > >> ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last >> time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The >> motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, >> keyboards, etc, are still in place. > >You were very lucky. > >What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems >together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it >home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system >it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy >from him or her: > >"The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." > >"Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the >problem." > >"But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're >properly installed." > >"Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in >the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is >bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." > >This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to >modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming >problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. > >Glen Goodwin >0/0

26 years, 3 months

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Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)

by mranalog＠home.com

Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:37:55 Bill Sudbrink said: >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/16/026l-081699-idx.html > >Fortunately, the article does not use that horrid phrase: > >"Software Program" > >AAARRRGGG!!! > >Why don't we get in the automobile car and drive ride to the >financial institution bank. There we can get some cash currency Bill, would you not call this an example of a hardware program? http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/analogs2.jpg I would not feel comfortable saying that this computer is running software. In fact it's wired to calculate and graphically display the trajectory of a ball after it's dropped from a certain height, and bounces on the ground. In practice, the program had a bug in it or a computing element was not functioning right, because when the program ran it would crash just after the first bounce. Probably had to do with the acceleration or velocity changing to the negative direction. If the function of something can be changed, whether the change is in the sequence of bits recorded on a diskette, or the pivot point in a set of linkages, I would say that you are changing the programming of that machine. But that's just my perspective and opinion. Regards, --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

26 years, 3 months

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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

On Friday, August 20, 1999 7:23 AM, Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com [SMTP:Philip.Belben@pgen.com] wrote: > > > >> Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the > >> nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at > >> once... > > > > So I have this carthridge I liberated from an abandoned 5360 that holds > > about 10 8" floppies. Does this get loaded into this 23-disk floppy > > drive? > > > Easy. You put the whole cartridge in. The drive takes two cartridges and three > loose disks. I seem to recall that the OS accepted designations for either > cartridge, both cartridges, any single disk, or all three single disks, and > there may have been a way of specifying a single disk within a cartridge (I can > look this up at home). > I don't remember the designations but, the larger (washing machine size) machines had the multidisk floppy drives. According to the documentation, you can specify a particular floppy in the carosel. Although, I don't recall the exact syntax. My system is the size of a 2-drawer file cabinet and weighs about 150 lbs (70KG for the rest of the world). Unfortunately, it does not have casters making it a PITA to move. It has a single 8" floppy that holds around 1MB of data. The drive seems pretty fast in relation to the rest of the machine. There are four twinax and four DB25 connectors on the rear. I have the console and printer hooked up to the first twinax connector and it works just fine. I got a modem and cables with the system but, haven't hooked it up. The cable has a DB25 connector so, it obviously plugs into one of the other ports. Don't know for sure but, I'm assuming they are normal RS232 connections? IMHO, this is one ugly OS! Later, Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 3 months

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M7865 question.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>It reads 'Unibus 2 word out' on the back, and the DEC module field guide >doesn't provide with additional information. > >What is it used for ? It's a DR11-M, basically a 32-bit-wide parallel output port. It's complement is the DR11-L, a 32-bit-wide parallel input port. Compare these with the rest of the DR11-* series, which are generally both input *and* output. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the >> nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at >> once... > > So I have this carthridge I liberated from an abandoned 5360 that holds > about 10 8" floppies. Does this get loaded into this 23-disk floppy > drive? Easy. You put the whole cartridge in. The drive takes two cartridges and three loose disks. I seem to recall that the OS accepted designations for either cartridge, both cartridges, any single disk, or all three single disks, and there may have been a way of specifying a single disk within a cartridge (I can look this up at home). In all cases except a single disk specified, when the machine got to the end of a disk, it would spit the disk back out into the cartridge (or disk slot), move the disk carriage up one space, and suck another disk into its innards to read or write it. A sort of jukebox mechanism, I suppose. I also recall it was pretty speedy, something like 4 cylinders a second, 20 seconds to read or write a whole diskette. Philip.

26 years, 3 months

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Osborne History

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

I don't know the exact connection, but there was an Osborne company with the same name and logo in Australia till recently. They seemed to have appeared about 1988 and were "rescued" and renamed by Gateway a few years back. I suspect it was just a case of the name and logo of the original company being sold. Hans -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, 20 August 1999 20:10 Subject: Re: Osborne History >On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Bill Sheehan wrote: > >> Once upon a time, I know I read a history of Osborne Computer Company >> ("Hypergrowth," by Adam Osborne and John Dvorak - I've got a copy around >> here somewhere.) I remember distinctly that they were the hit of Computer >> Faire in 1981, and went bankrupt in September of '83. >> >> Thanks to my sharp-eyed wife, I now have an Osborne Vixen, the OCC-4. >> The motherboard and copyright notice in the documentation are clearly >> labeled 1984. I thought they'd already slipped beneath the waves by then. >> >> Can someone enlighten me on the End of Osborne? > >I think they actually lasted until about 1986. Their last ditch effort >was the Osborne III, which was simply a re-branded Morrow Pivot Portable >(aka the Zenith Z-{somesuchmodel}). > >Surprised me too. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] >

26 years, 3 months

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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

Chris, Joe and Steve between them managed to say: >> > I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to >> >me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. >> >Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the >> >amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? [...] > There seem to be a BUNCH of variants of the 536X systems so it's hard to > predict what's gonna be inside. I think mine is an early example because it > will only support drives up to 60MB each. Currently, it has a 60MB and a > 30MB drive installed. I think some of the later models had drives in the > 1GB range but, I'm not positive of that. 5360 is the physically biggest system/36 - the size of a system/34 (5340). My experience is more with system/34 than system/36, but 60MB per drive sounds even lower than we had on our s/34 - must be a very early s/36 To return to Chris's question, I seem to recall some information appearing on the screen during boot. I think the terminal must be set to address 0 (or possibly 1 if 0 isn't valid) and stuck on the lowest-numbered twinax chain. It then will automatically be the console, and will display all this junk. FWIW our system/34 had 224K bytes of RAM of which one 2K block had died. Of disk space I think it had 256MB, but I can't remember if this was four drives or six. Big things with multiple platters, anyway. Finally, as I can seldom resist saying, the 5340 and 5360 have the nicest floppy drive I've ever met. Twenty-three disks all in it at once... Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 3 months

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Osborne History

by sheehan＠switchboardmail.com

Once upon a time, I know I read a history of Osborne Computer Company ("Hypergrowth," by Adam Osborne and John Dvorak - I've got a copy around here somewhere.) I remember distinctly that they were the hit of Computer Faire in 1981, and went bankrupt in September of '83. Thanks to my sharp-eyed wife, I now have an Osborne Vixen, the OCC-4. The motherboard and copyright notice in the documentation are clearly labeled 1984. I thought they'd already slipped beneath the waves by then. Can someone enlighten me on the End of Osborne? Thanks! -- Bill Sheehan

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by RCini＠congressfinancial.com

On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:24:13 -0400, CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: >>You know, 20 years after I first put an IMSAI together I still reach in >>them today to wiggle around the front panel and YIKES!!. I just never, >>ever learn! >>I never fried any hardware due to the 120VAC, just me. (Once a >>screwdriver ended up in the wall.) I've gotten pliers flung across the room; screwdrivers welded. Not to mention that uncomfortable tingling feeling in my arm :-). Rich -------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Cini Vice President Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax) rcini(a)congressfinancial.com

26 years, 3 months

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No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2]

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> > What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It > doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. > When you have an unskilled and underpaid workforce, using inferior materials and processes, that's the ONLY kind of product you can produce. > > On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes > because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher > quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you... > There are better products available. It's just that most consumers can't justify buying the more expensive products. One of the problems in the computer industy is the pace of the technology and the speed at which products depreciate. Because of this, computer systems (PCs in particular) have become very short term investments. How many people or companies believe their PCs will last for more than a few years? Would you spend $400 for a case and PS that's powering a 386? I certainly wouldn't. Unless of course it is critical to my business or my welfare. Now a harder question. Would you spend $400 for a case and PS that's powering a new Zeon 550? I wouldn't... Just remember, todays Zeon 550 is tomorrows 386. In contrast, the opposite thing is happening in the automobile industry. People are realizing that a car is a long term investment and the higher quality (price) is easily justified. There's a lot more $40,000 cars being sold than $7,000 cars. Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 3 months

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Interesting find -> Honeywell-Bull AP/M

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Does anyone have any sort of info on this thing? I just picked one up at a garage sale for $1. The guy I bought it from had no info about it. He said it was in the basement of his house when he bought the house... The case is about 6" high by 15" wide. It has a 1.2 MB 5.25" floppy and a ST-225 HD in it. It has a 286-10 CPU in it, but when "turbo" (it's software controlled - "boost.exe" makes the computer beep then lights a green LED on the front)is on, it clocks at 13.5 MHz (QADiagnostics). There is a 3.5" bay that's the same height as a 5.25" floppy (anyone have a drive that'll fit in here?), and the three LED's (green, red, green - power, HD, turbo) aren't labeled. The cover over the HD bay is odd, too. It's frosted. Whenever the computer's on, the green HD light can be seen through it, sort of like the old Olivetti had. The cards that it has are a standard MFM controller (although in a non-standard place - it's set back About 1" from the back of the case, and about 1" to the right of the card cage, and the ''tail" on the card's mounting bracket goes through a hole in the motherboard)/ There's also a standard CGA/composite video card, and an ARCnet LANcard. It has a BNC coax connector on it. As my luck would have it, though the "arcnet" directory was empty. All the directories were empty but the DOS directory, and they all appear to have hidden files, because I can't remove them. The case is also made from a surprisingly heavy gauge of steel. All the metal is about 1/32" thick, and it weighs about as much as a 5170 AT. Anyone have any info on this? what it was mainly used for? Maybe a keyboard to match? :) ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1>

26 years, 3 months

2
1
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imsal 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

Back in the '70's, and maybe into the early '80's, the rule of thumb was to multiply manufacturing cost by 4 to estimate the minimum retail price of a piece of electronic gear. I don't know how to estimate the cost of the components any better than has already been done here, but I would imagine that Todd Fischer is collecting orders as a means of estimating the potential for his product along with paying for tooling and other non-recurring costs. I'm relieved that his product is, as yet, vaporware, because I personally don't see the benefit in having a 22-slot mainframe with a power supply of the sort describe on the IMSAI web site, just as I'm having trouble with the notion that people would pay $1k for a box with a front panel and little else. Based on the notion that SOME people will, I don't see his price as excessive for what it might be. I do have the sense that the WHAT is still TBD. There's no shortage of S-100 mainframes from what I've seen. I see three or four every year for about $25, which nearly compensates the consignee for the space they take up. I have about six which I 'd happily give up. That would still leave me plenty. The original notion I remember seeing was to have the IMSAI "look" wedded to a current generation Pentium class processor. I don't see a niche for that, however. All we can do is wait and hope Todd Fischer comes to what more of would consider to be his senses and reshapes his intended product. It is HIS, though . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 11:24 AM Subject: Re: imsal 2 >> And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches: >>22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a >>warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number. > >Multiply the above numbers by a factors of 1.5 or so, and you're about >in the right ballpark (though the real factor is much closer to 4 for >the power supply - $50 won't buy anything but a way-too-dinky transformer.) >I did a similar calculation when deciding whether I could sell my "TIMSAI" >as a commercial product, and came up with a street price for it (with >very similar production costs) that would have to be close to $2000-$3000 to >justify the effort. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

3
2
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RT-11 and TCP/IP

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

OK, since I'm trying to cover all bases trying to find an answer I guess I'd best send a message to the list. I'm trying to install Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP package on a mutant PDP-11/73 with a DEQNA ethernet controller (though have tried a DELQA). However, I seem to be stuck, and I can't figure out what the error code I'm getting is. Depending on how I start it, I get one of the following two error codes: Board initialization failed!. Error code=3 netinit() failed Board initialization failed!. Error code=11 netinit() failed Are the error codes documented anywhere? I've tried going through some of the source without any luck. I'm at a loss here as I know for a fact that the DEQNA, transceiver and network cableing are all good. Any help/suggestions would be much appreciated. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 3 months

1
0
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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: jpero(a)cgocable.net <jpero(a)cgocable.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:58 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:44:06 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> X-To: <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > >> Tony, we have stores like that too, such as "CompUSA" or Circuit City. Even >> though their prices are often outrageously high for the "add-ons" such as >> mice or cables, their system prices are normally in line with other stores. >> They have a replacement parts/upgrade components counter where things like >> CPU fans, video boards, etc. are sold, but you have to bring your >> information with you. What you get there is not reliable. > >Those "upgrades" and loose boards on display are generic type no >different from no-brands except for branded ones upgrade boxes. > >> >> The thing that's insulting is that the prices of these items vary so wildly >> that one dares not to rely on being able to afford even a simple add-on >> without first knocking over the liquor store down the street. > >Not how I shop. I pick out a specific brand and few models then shop >around with that limited specifics for good price and warrenty. >Example Asus MEL-M, one shop has it for 150 CDN 1 yr. Other shop >has it for few dollars less and 1 year manufacter plus 2yr extra. >So on. Beauiful board and works well on linux and winblows 95 upgrade >ver after patched the chipset driver into winblows. :-) I own 3 >other boards by Asus. To others, sorry to hear about sucker >problems. I think it's the wholesaler thing passing sick ones onto >unsuspecting users. Happened on 2 occasions, once w/ asus from a >little known vendor (sick parallel port), and once with tyan board >from a vendor that poofed right afterwards who we contacted refused >to resolve this problems. Their claims tested it it's fine! BULL! > I have a particular problem with ASUS, dating back to their '486 days which removed them forever from my list. Whats more, their motherboards without processor cost more than the ones I have used for some time with. I've never seen anyone willing and able (some are willing, but not many) to enforce the warranty. > >> I saw an ad a couple of days ago while shopping for motherboards, and found >> a "bare bones" system consisting of a motherboard, CPU (300 MHz K6) >> enclosure, floppy drive, and power supply, for $100. This was nationally >Snip! > >That barebone thing, I smell rat, avoid! > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, keyboards, etc, are still in place. > >> Now, in today's high-volume, fast-paced market, I doubt there's any need for >> one to worry about the power supply wearing out before his hardware becomes >> obsolete. (These days that's when you can't even give it away any more or >> about a year, whichever comes first.) The cheapo fans and PSU's we've been >> kicking around generally last longer than that, and those fellows who have > >Bzzt! I have seen 2~4 generation upgrades done in same old cases >so can't be stated simply. Some even started out as 386 box even >smattering of XT or 286 vinage! All those boards that came out of >them are perfectly functional and resold on cosignment as used parts >for other users on very small budget to upgrade their even older >machines. Average age for a case after 4th upgrade is around 6 years >old. > People in an office don't want the same old PC (remember we're looking at the outside) they've had for more than a year. > >I have the cute 286 case holding 16X cdrom, Pentium 100, 'T2P4 etc >etc and it still bears the label '286' for fun to pick on people who >saw that case 'running' winblows. :-) Took me long time to find >that style I liked. > >Wizard. > >> Dick >

26 years, 3 months

1
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DEC Pro Documentation available

by djenner＠halcyon.com

I have extra copies of the following available. These are all probably for a Pro 350, if there is any machine dependency, and are all circa version 2.0 of P/OS. The software for the last version (3.2) is available at ftp.update.uu.se. Hard Disk System For Beginners User's Guide User's Guide Supplement Command Language User's Guide PRO/Sight User's Guide A few miscellaneous "Installation Manuals" for options. If any is interested, let me know. I'll send these to anyone who'll pay postage plus a small packaging fee, total to be determined, but probably not more than $10. Dave

26 years, 3 months

1
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imsai 2

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Of course small transformers such as in some wall warts would be a pain! <-Dave Well I've done far smaller. Like those .5"x.4" miniature audio cores. those are a pain as you have to find the smallest guage that will give the ampere/turns and core flux plus fit! Very much on topic item! Sent off EMAIL to IMSAI.NET... As most know I've been looking for a manual for my IMP-48 8048 board. Got a really nice response. Seems they didn't sell many, like maybe some 300 of them and that is why they are so scarce(as are the Docs). Oh and I'm not selling it, send gold bullion directly too... ;) Allison

26 years, 3 months

1
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imsai 2

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 08/19/1999 11:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick(a)idcomm.com writes: > ... and what, exactly, is wrong with the "barebone thing" pray tell? Last > time I bought barebones systems I got enough for a whole law firm. The > motherboards have been replaced for upgrades, but the boxes, drives, > keyboards, etc, are still in place. You were very lucky. What is wrong is that many cutthroat operators put these "barebones" systems together with faulty cpus/motherboards . . . since you're going to take it home and add some other components, if you have a problem with the system it's easy for the seller to blame any problems on components you didn't buy >from him or her: "The barebones system you sold me crashes all the time." "Let me see it . . . oh, you have these other parts in it . . . that's the problem." "But they're standard parts, and if you check them out you'll see they're properly installed." "Sorry, those parts are not compatible with the high-quality components in the system you bought from us. And that crummy software you installed is bound to cause problems. But we'll be glad to check it out for $$$ per hour." This is one of the oldest cons in the world: Sell something the buyer has to modify in order to use, then shift responsibility onto the buyer by blaming problems on buyer modifications. Then charge them out the ass. Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 3 months

2
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Digital kinda ethernet card?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Aug 19, 12:10, Mike Ford wrote: > Subject: Digital kinda ethernet card? > I noticed my friends AlphaServer 2100 has the same card poking out the back > as one of the cards in my neatly sorted pile of old ethernet cards. The > card is ISA and the back looks as follows from bottom to top, RJ45, fat > LED, DB15 with a screw post on each end, fat LED. Is this a ethernet card? Almost certainly. The RJ45 will be 10baseT and the DA15 will be an AUI connector (sometimes called 10base5 because they'd often be connected by a drop cable to a thick wire transceiver, but in fact you could connect a 10base2 or 10baseT transceiver instead). There may be links to set which is the active port, though modern cards sometimes do that under software control, or autodetect a live link on the 10baseT when they power up. The AUI connector usually has a clip mechanism rather than screwposts, though. An ordinary miniature transceiver won't fit onto the screwposts. The only other cards you're likely to see that are similar, is a few old ISDN cards. They have an RJ45 for the S-bus (ISDN) connection, and one make did use DA15 for a serial port, but they always had one more modular jack (or 600-series jack) for a phone, too. They usually have a large (2-3" x 3-4") covered section with the telecomms section isolated inside it. Ethernet cards usually have a much smaller (1" square or so) monolithic voltage converter/isolator to generate the isolated 10V supply for the network driver. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 3 months

1
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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

On Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:11 PM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] wrote: > Chris, > > Nope but I have a 5363 that needs a home! (currently in Florida). > > Joe > > > At 03:42 PM 8/19/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hey, everyone. :-) > > > > I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to > >me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. > >Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the > >amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Chris > > > > Chris, There seem to be a BUNCH of variants of the 536X systems so it's hard to predict what's gonna be inside. I think mine is an early example because it will only support drives up to 60MB each. Currently, it has a 60MB and a 30MB drive installed. I think some of the later models had drives in the 1GB range but, I'm not positive of that. I have a complete set of user manuals but, they don't have much detail about the hardware. As a matter of fact, I couldn't even tell ya how much RAM mine has in it. My guess is somewhere around 512KB. But, that's just a guess. The system is dog slow but, is supposed to be pretty solid. I've also got one of those heavy ass printers. Built like a rock, works like a champ! Those systems generally ran COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, RPG, or ASSEMBLY. Unfortunately, RPG is the only package currently installed on mine. Anyone know where I can get COBOL or FORTRAN for it? If you need help getting it going, let me know. I can't part with the DOCs but, I'll be glad to look up any info for you. BTW: A few months ago, someone was looking for "Ball Bat" ribbons. I've got a few extras and might be willing to part with a couple (make an offer). See Ya, Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 3 months

1
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imsal 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

What are the chances that a "collector," that being a personality type rather than just a person who saves old stuff, would go for one of these largely phony (except the front panel) IMSAI-2 as a collectible? I'd have trouble swallowing that anyone could be taken in to that extent. You won't have much trouble convincing me that there are lots of people out there who'd pay $1k for what is essentially a reproduction, no matter how authentic in places and inauthentic in others. The motto to which many people live is "appearance over substance" and that would certainly apply here. OTOH, it's hard to be discriminating where ALTAIR and IMSAI are concerned. I'm not even sure whether either of them produced a truly complete and functional board set. If a system is going to be viewed as authentic, then it has to be more than just housed in an authentic box. If it has a Tarbell FDC, then it's not an IMSAI in the true sense of the word. Now, if IMSAI didn't ever make an FDC, then there's room for debate. It's the same way with ALTAIR. If you want to claim you have an ALTAIR computer running in your basement then what's down there had best be ALTAIR stuff, not just an ALTAIR CPU in a Morrow box with a CCS FDC and a COMPUPRO serial board. If you have an Integrand box, I guess you can call your computer an Integrand no matter what's in it, since they only made the boxes, right? I think that's the mentality that drives the eBay prices up. If you have a VERY pretty Daimler Benz hood ornament, with Chevrolet wheels, a Ford engine, a BMW emblem on the rear bonnet of a Corvair, with a Corvette steering wheel, what do you call your car (not that those parts would play together) ? For the collector, it's VERY important that all the parts fit, not just essentially, but exactly. That means that if IMSAI made one (whatever that might be), your system isn't complete without it. If you restore your '57 Chevy with parts carefully sought out at the junkyards within a 1000 mile radius of your home, and with "real" parts and real lead in the body work, and original upholstery, etc, it's not the same as the one built from whatever after-market parts you could find. It may look good, but it isn't "real" is it? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 12:01 PM Subject: Re: imsal 2 >On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > >> Well, I've always thought that this guy who's building these has been >> spending *way* too much time on e-bay. I think he's counting on selling >> to the same idiots who pay $500 for a 'signature' Mac 128. > >And you know what? He probably will. > >> I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he figured >> that these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob appeal. > >If I had $995 to blow (like I just robbed a bank) I'd get one. > >> Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this >> 'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's >> just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'. > >Hey, that's c{r}apitalism. > >> I'm convinced that the IMSAI-2 is a product designed and marketed >> expressly for the purpose of becomming a 'Hot Collectable'. I'm > >You got it. > >> confident in a couple of years you'll see E-Bay ads like this: >> >> RARE! IMSAI-2 Chassis, Complete! One of only 24 Made! L@@K! > >And you know what? It will be the first "RARE" label on an e-bay ad that >will be truthful. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 08/17/99] >

26 years, 3 months

2
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About to acquire an IBM 5360...

by cureau＠centuryinter.net

Hey, everyone. :-) I have an opprotunity to get an IBM 5360 (looks like a System/36 to me) with a 5224 printer (heavy beast!) and a 5291-2 monochrome display. Does anyone have any information on this, like how I can determine the amount of DASD in it, how much RAM, and what I can do with it? Thanks in advance, Chris

26 years, 3 months

2
1
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No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2]

by max82＠surfree.com

>At 12:32 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Glen wrote: >less margin. The bottom line is it costs $20 to get _anything_ substantial >from a korean factory to your local computer haus. What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you...

26 years, 3 months

3
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Bell & Howell Micromodule 85 : info wanted

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Sorry to revive such an old thread, but I've only just caught up with list traffic since I went away... >> > > 4 5 8 C W R >> > > 3 6 9 D P D >> > > 2 7 A E L S >> > > 1 0 B F X B >> > > -------------- ------ >> > >> > Hmmmm... kinda neat if you're programming in Octal all the time... >> > then the layout gets almost, dare I use the word: 'ergonomic'.....? >> >> Aha! That makes perfect sense. Good eye. > > Well, it might if either the 4/3/2/1 and the 5/6/7/0 columns were in the > same order. ... but ... what's that 0 doing "after" the 7? In short, > I don't see it is vaguely appropriate for octal, either :) I don't much like 0 after 7, any more than I like 0 after 9 on a telephone dial (or keypad for that matter). But the layout above does give the digits 0 to 7 around a (non-circular) ring, so I think it would work for octal. I would have preferred either: C D E F 8 9 A B 4 5 6 7 0 1 2 3 which is a good octal and hex keypad, or: 7 8 9 F 4 5 6 E 1 2 3 D 0 A B C which incorporates the usual calculator pad. Anyone else have preferred layouts? Philip.

26 years, 3 months

3
2
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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

The joke is on the one who tries to buy from a "real" elelctronics shop, where 1/4-watt resistors cost upwards of a buck . . . and the first item on the list costs $100 because that's their minimum. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme(a)aol.com <Glenatacme(a)aol.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 10:38 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:31:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > >> > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement >> > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. >> >> You don't get them from computer shops. You get them from _real_ >> electronics shops/supply companies. It just so happens that they also fit >> PC power supplies ;-). > >Tony, I resemble this implication! You have obviously never visited my >*computer shop* :>) > >Glen Goodwin >0/0

26 years, 3 months

2
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Crepuscular? (was: field maintenance print sets)

by amclaren＠microsoft.com

Very off-topic, but why is it that hackers are almost NEVER morning people?? I have a vast array of first-hand observances which complement my own intuitive feeling, that buggerising around with computers is best done around midnight to 2am. The best tech-heads are always "non compis mentis" before midday. Why is that? One of the unsolved problems of Computing Science .... Cheers, Andrew /* Disclaimer: my own opinions, not the official policy of Microsoft Corporation */ -----Original Message----- From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] Sent: Saturday, August 14, 1999 1:20 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: field maintenance print sets [ ... etc ... ] Gort! Remind me to never comment on threads before noon! (never fully awake before noon) B^} [ ... etc ... ]

26 years, 3 months

17
41
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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

I've had plenty of PSU's fail, but the price is not as good an indicator of the probability as you might believe. I've got two machines of about the same age and content, yet one has had three PSU's over the 10 years it's been in use, while the other has the one it had when I got it. I realize that's unusual, but it can happen. The unfortunate fact, Tony, is that here in the U.S, because people are accustomed to paying <$25 for a case with power supply (250 Watts is the rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:51 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Well . . . let's see . . . fan = $40 in q1, power supply including fan = $33 > >In the UK, a decent (==ball bearings. Papst, Etri, somebody like that) >fan is under \pounds 20.00 in 1-off. PC PSUs are a little more, so it is >often worth replacing the fan. > >> in q1. . . cabinet, including power supply and fan = $22 in q1 . . . not > >Yes, but that's a PSU with a cheap fan that will fail in a few months. >When it does, doesn't it make sense to buy a better fan and replace just >the fan (which will then last many years) than put in another PSU that will >fail in another couple of months? > >-tony >

26 years, 3 months

4
3
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imsai 2

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:31:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement > > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. > > You don't get them from computer shops. You get them from _real_ > electronics shops/supply companies. It just so happens that they also fit > PC power supplies ;-). Tony, I resemble this implication! You have obviously never visited my *computer shop* :>) Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 3 months

2
1
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Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)

by edick＠idcomm.com

OK, you can remove it by desoldering or whatever, but what about the distinction between the unprogrammed part, e.g. FPGA when the power's off, and when it's on and loaded? It's still hardware, isn't it? It's just different hardware when the configuration code is in it and powered, or is it? Now, what about the pseudo hard-disks sold on PCMCIA cards as "flash-disk" or whatever. Is the stuff stored there firmware or is it software? I see a change in the generalized definition of "soft" vs. "hard" in this context in a much more general sense. People talk about machine-readable copy, e.g. data on floppy disk, as "soft" copy, and they talk about purportedly fixed specifications or code segments, or definitions, as being "hard" implying they're, at least relatively, "etched in concrete," as opposed to being etched in "silly-putty" as some spec's are. It's just an observation. I was just getting comfortable referring to loadable programs/data, as one might store on rotating memory, as software, nonvolatile programs and data (Yes, tables in a code body are data.) stored in PALs, NVRAM, PROM, ROM, etc, as firmware. There's never been a question about what the stuff you see, touch, hear when it's running, and may smell when it's not, as hardware. Who knows, though. I couldn't believe it when I learned that "duhh" was in the dictionary as a word. I heard yesterday that the latest Webster has the Seinfeldism "yadda yadda yadda" as a word. <sigh> Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >Hi Dick > You can still grab it and remove it ( a little harder ). >It is still firmware. You put software into firmware. >Like most definitions, that came about early on, there >are gray areas. This entire 'what if' is silly. >Software is what runs and may be in firmware. If we didn't have >another name for a hard disk, it would have fallen >under the firmware definition. The code that runs >is still software. I had a calculator once that used a >spool of steel tape to contain the program. It was still >firmware but the information on it was software. >Dwight > >"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: >> You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and you >> reprogram them in situ. >> >> How does that effect your definitions? >> >> Dick >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> >> >> >> >"Charles P. Hobbs" <transit(a)primenet.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> >> > to kill you ;-) >> >> >> >> Firmware? >> >> >> >> >> > >> >Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >> >plugged in. >> >Dwight >> > >

26 years, 3 months

2
1
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IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things...

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Nope. No free slot. The long slot has an IBM 3363 controller in it, and the other slot won't accept a long cart, because it hits the cooling fan. Anyone know what the short slot's for? Yes, I do have the reverence disk. The P70 has 4 SIMM slots. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... >> On 7 Aug 99 at 18:48, Olminkhof wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > >Basically what I meant is banks of two. There's two SIMMS in a bank, with >> > 2 >> > >banks, totaling 4 SIMMS. >> > > >> > >If you install three 2 MB SIMMS, instead of getting a 6 MB memory reading, >> > >you'll get a 4 MB reading and a memory error. >> > > >> > >> > >> > Nope. >> > >> > You'll get a memory error until you run the reference disk. If you have an >> > error while running the reference disk then you have the wrong type of >> > simms. >> > >> > It's not until you get to Pentiums that you need 72pin simms in pairs. >> > >> > >> > >///--->>> >> > > -Jason Willgruber >> > >> >> > >>I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these. >> > >>They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with presence >> > >>detect circuitry. >> > >> >> > >>Hans >> > >> >> >> TMK most IBMs (as well as Ataris, Macs and NEXT) require matching simms in >> pairs, and as well presence detect in the case of MCA. There is a hardware hack >> to get around the P.D. on Peter Wendts site. While I have never tried to add a >> single simm physically except to expand the onboard memory of my 8580 to 4m >> from 2 , IIRC all the docs mention this. I would certainly be delighted if >> this were not so. I have an IBM 486 Ambra (non-MCA) which also requires memory >> in pairs but doesn't require PD and a single spare non-IBM 8meg which sits >> unused because of this limitation. I have an 8570 A-21 desktop (25mhz and 387 >> co-processor) and other PS2s. There is also a 16 meg max limitation on most of >> the PS2s altho there are workarounds for this I understand. >> >> ciao larry >> lwalker(a)interlog.com >> > >I thought that at least one of the PS/2 model 70 motherboard versions came >with 3 simm slots... I dont recall it needing simms in pairs on the >motherboard, though it does use a non-standard, PS/2 style presence >detect. > >Does the original poster have a free MCA slot for a ram expansion board? >I have one for a PS/2 model 70, that I assume would work in your system, >assuming you have the reference diskette for your machine. > >-Lawrence LeMay >

26 years, 3 months

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Still more PBX-wise. It's (acting like it's) alive!

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

Well, the power problem was easy to fix. Inside the PBX, someone had disconnected one of the live AC leads froms the screw terminal, and wrapped the end in electrical tape. Once I figured out where it went (Which was easy, it was the only unscrewed screw...) and applied power, it did all sorts of fun stuff. First, the console gets VERY confused when the things boots, and for about 30 seconds or so, the alarm goes off, all (or most of) the lights come on, and all of the various tones (intercept, dial, busy, etc.) sound at once. The tones themselved sound the same as the tones on the public network today. I was hoping for something interesting... Also, I found out the PASS and FAIL lights on the test panel are burned out. I'll have to replace them. The next thing to do is to connect some stations to it and see what happens. I think I have the proper wiring for this... Also, does anyone have the pinout of a trunk connector? You see, all we have at the destination of the PBX (Which is where I work) is Centrex service, and it sucks because we can't do PBX type stuff like music on hold, or transfer calls around, or pick up on any line from any phone... Right now when the phone rings or we have to pick up on certain phones (Cause not all of them have 4 lines, and of those that do, not all of them work.) and it's a general mess. So, what's going to be connected to this (if possible) is just 5 straight phone lines, and we'll have the Centrex service cancelled. (That way we don't have to dial 2 9s for an outside line.) SO far, from the console, I can snag a loop, and get an internal dial tone. If I dial 9 (It is touch-tone), I can get an outside line, but there's nothing on it so it's just silent. Also, I need to clean out the console buttons, right now you have to mash pretty hard to make a button go. Other than hat, I haven't been able to test much. There's no fans, and no loud noises, it just kinda sits and hums. OH, and I did (try) doing some of the test described in the DLP books, but a lot of them refrences use of a MAAP device, which is (apparently) supposed to be located in the PBX cabinet, but it isn't. The others refrence use of an "X-Ray" tape, I guess this is like XXDP to a PDP-11. But I don't have it. SO I just skipped those. Also, is there a special mailing list somewhere for people who play with old phone stuff? This is getting pretty interesting, and I really hate to keep perstering people here with this... Anyway, more tomorrow when I drag a few extensions in! -------

26 years, 3 months

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imsal 2

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:34:18 -0400 "Cini, Richard" <RCini(a)congressfinancial.com> writes: > Hello, all: > > I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last > few months. And I can understand the underlying premise of introducing a > "new" old computer to, IMHO, capitalize on the wave of nostalgia and the > desire to move down the power curve a bit. Not to mention recent E-Bay prices. > My other concern is cost. For $999, one gets a bullet-proof > case, new terminated, large, partially-filled backplane, a snazzy front > panel, and a power supply of dubious quality. No boards. Nothing. > Non-functional, but pretty. Well, I've always thought that this guy who's building these has been spending *way* too much time on e-bay. I think he's counting on selling to the same idiots who pay $500 for a 'signature' Mac 128. > And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? > Switches: 22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. > Maybe I have a warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting > a lower number. I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he figured that these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob appeal. > I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only > have a non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target > audience. I would prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level > and interest to assemble one myself. Well that was the whole point, wasn't it, eh? You built it yourself because you a) Had more time than money or b) That's the only way you could get it. I dunno about you, but I certainly fell into the 'more time than money' category (and *still* couldn't afford it). I believe his target audience has 'more money than {time | brains}'. I dunno Rich, I always figured you as a pretty smart guy. Maybe on a budget, too. Would be better just to buy the 'unique' bits, and piece one together yourself (utilizing the PSU of your choice). BTW, what's wrong with your Horizon (just curious)? > Also, Imsai-2 is vaporware. Um, until he comes up with at least bare boards and stuff, yep, fer sure. > Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think > that I'm prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional > machine. Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this 'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'. > If I were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could > restore it to functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one, > either. True, although this would be the way to go, assuming the price is right. Even if you just have a pile of old boards, as i said before, just get the 'unique' stuff, then fill in the gaps with off-the-shelf items. That's essentially what we did in the old days. I'm convinced that the IMSAI-2 is a product designed and marketed expressly for the purpose of becomming a 'Hot Collectable'. I'm confident in a couple of years you'll see E-Bay ads like this: RARE! IMSAI-2 Chassis, Complete! One of only 24 Made! L@@K! Anyway, more then my $0.02, but hey, there it is. Jeff > > Rich > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Richard Cini > Vice President > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax) > rcini(a)congressfinancial.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 3 months

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[OT] Used Exabyte wanted

by edick＠idcomm.com

I just sold my spare 8505XL, but you should have no trouble finding one for sale by searching dejanews power search using the string "SALE & EXABYTE." The software supporting these drives is so shabby that of the four major packages (of which I have all) for Windows, only one really works in the general case, and not a one works predictably. My DOS-based software works perfectly every time with it, though, as with the EXB-8200's which are more common and more poorly supported because they're SCSI-1. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:29 AM Subject: [OT] Used Exabyte wanted > >I'd like to pick up a used Exabyte 85xx 8mm SCSI tape drive at a good price. >An 8505 would be great, a 8500 would be OK, a robo-library would be nice >at a nice price. I'd rather buy from someone I "know" than from eBay. > >- John >

26 years, 3 months

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No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2]

by edick＠idcomm.com

Packaging, and packagin engineering is expensive. If you take a close look at those Packard-Bell or other US-made computers sold in the US, you'll see better packaging that what's common in home-built/assembled computers. Unfortunately, the better packaging accompanies a computer built with the necessary offsetting quality in the "guts" which is a shame. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:23 AM Subject: Re: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2] >>At 12:32 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Glen wrote: >>less margin. The bottom line is it costs $20 to get _anything_ substantial >>from a korean factory to your local computer haus. > > >What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It >doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply. > >On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes >because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher >quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you... >

26 years, 3 months

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imsal 2

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches: >22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a >warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number. Multiply the above numbers by a factors of 1.5 or so, and you're about in the right ballpark (though the real factor is much closer to 4 for the power supply - $50 won't buy anything but a way-too-dinky transformer.) I did a similar calculation when deciding whether I could sell my "TIMSAI" as a commercial product, and came up with a street price for it (with very similar production costs) that would have to be close to $2000-$3000 to justify the effort. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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imsal 2

by RCini＠congressfinancial.com

Hello, all: I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last few months. And I can understand the underlying premise of introducing a "new" old computer to, IMHO, capitalize on the wave of nostalgia and the desire to move down the power curve a bit. I would have no problem buying a new-old machine. I understand, though, that it's not an "as-issued" original, but a newly-manufactured unit based on original engineering drawings with some enhancements. Yes, it's not original, but, hey, it looks great from the front! I don't necessarily agree with the use of a PC power supply, but that feature makes it easy to add PC peripherals such as hard drives, floppies, or CD-R drives, should the need arise. My concern would be using legacy S100 cards on a new power buss. And this step-up regulation scheme concerns me. Why not just use a transformer from Stancor??? My other concern is cost. For $999, one gets a bullet-proof case, new terminated, large, partially-filled backplane, a snazzy front panel, and a power supply of dubious quality. No boards. Nothing. Non-functional, but pretty. And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches: 22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number. I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only have a non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target audience. I would prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level and interest to assemble one myself. Also, Imsai-2 is vaporware. Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think that I'm prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional machine. If I were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could restore it to functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one, either. Rich -------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Cini Vice President Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax) rcini(a)congressfinancial.com

26 years, 3 months

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Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)

by edick＠idcomm.com

You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and you reprogram them in situ. How does that effect your definitions? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc) >"Charles P. Hobbs" <transit(a)primenet.com> wrote: >> >> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have >> > to kill you ;-) >> >> Firmware? >> >> > >Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is >plugged in. >Dwight >

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Actually My comments were narrowly aimed. the IMSAI was a far better >example of S100 and worth copying. Only ONE change I'd do... NO MAINS >POWER ON THE FP! Back when I'd seen one altair and a IMSAI fried by >someone comming in contact with that. It had no business there. You know, 20 years after I first put an IMSAI together I still reach in them today to wiggle around the front panel and YIKES!!. I just never, ever learn! I never fried any hardware due to the 120VAC, just me. (Once a screwdriver ended up in the wall.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 3 months

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Tektronix 4051 or 4052

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> ...I have yet to hear even a rumour of a 4054 surviving... > > Well, I can do better than just a rumour... Go here: > > http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/jcgm-mic.shtml > > and scroll down toward the bottom of the page... (things are fairly > alphabetical) > > Then the things that came with it that are not shown yet... Plotter, > printer, docs, tape libraries, ROM cartridges, etc... > > And by the way... It runs! B^} You lucky beggar! Hey! Didn't I say that when you announced the find? My memory must be going. Get the technical manuals from Tek - "Technical Data" and "Parts List and Schematics". Expensive - expect to pay $300 the pair - but worth it. Invaluable for repairs, and I have had to do several of those since I got my machine (mostly PSU failures). I can get you part numbers for the manuals if this will help. 4054A is the nicest of the 4050 series. 4054 has the large screen and A signifies faster GPIB and extended BASIC... Philip.

26 years, 3 months

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Tektronix 4051 or 4052

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

A week or two ago, Monty McGraw wrote: > I bought a Tek4051 while in the USAF in 1978. I developed several programs > using the 4051 for data collection and reduction. > > I would like to find one, probably for the nostalgia, I still have the my > old program listings. > > I saw the recent thread on the EXEC command, I figured out the EXEC command > and wrote a couple of 6800 assembly language programs (play music, dump the > ROMs to the printer, etc). As I recall the format of the command was EXEC > A$, where the string was typically read from the tape as a single file. Monty, you wonderful person! I will have to try this on my 4052. For this, if I ever find a 4054, you will get first refusal on my 4052 :-) Joe Rigdon had written: >> Good Luck! I only know of two 4051s and only one 4052. I have one of >>the >>4051s. None of them are for sale. Are you looking for one to collect or >>what? They are definitely rare. I know of two of each, the other 4052 being in the Dutch Computer Museum, but I heard rumours at VCF last year that another 4052 had been sold recently - I hope it was to a collector who will take care of it. I have yet to hear even a rumour of a 4054 surviving... Philip.

26 years, 3 months

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Modcomp Classic news

by hansp＠digiweb.com

Well my request for info on the Modcomp Classis did not result in much! One resonse to a usenet post netted someone who still runs one. Anyways, the guy that gave us the Modcomp found the complete maintenance doc set! So now I have the schematics, theroy of operation manuals, diagnostoic manuals - the works. One happy camper here is going to bring up that classic computer real soon now.... Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue <mailto:hansp@digiweb.com> <http://digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc>

26 years, 3 months

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[OT] Used Exabyte wanted

by jfoust＠threedee.com

I'd like to pick up a used Exabyte 85xx 8mm SCSI tape drive at a good price. An 8505 would be great, a 8500 would be OK, a robo-library would be nice at a nice price. I'd rather buy from someone I "know" than from eBay. - John

26 years, 3 months

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PL/I

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

IBM still offers PL/I programming tools: http://commerce.www.ibm.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/CategoryDisplay?cgrfnbr=18253… Just thought it was interesting. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99]

26 years, 3 months

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semantics (was Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc))

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Just to add grist for the mill, I'd point out that people now are, perhaps >> erroneously, calling recorded program material for your stereo and your TV >> 'software' as well. Now, I would call a CD or a CDROM firmware, since you >> can't really change it, but who's splitting hairs . . . > > Ah, the question of when is software software. If you want to get > really precise, I would argue that it is "stored data" when it is on > the CDROM. It does not become software until it is relocated and > available for execution in the processors address space. If you can > step a program counter (or instruction pointer or whatever you call it > on a particular architecture) across it, then it is either software or > firmware. Otherwise: If it is on paper, it is a "listing". If it is > on paper tape, it is a "dump". Etc. Of course, this opens up the > question of just what are interpreted language and p-code programs? Definitely software. Just because the program counter that steps through the code is in fact a variable in a program, rather than a register on a chip, doesn't make the code any less software. In fact, a good interpreter will probably have the program counter in a processor register if the processor has enough of these. FWIW, I would call a cd-rom a storage medium (everyone who says "a storage media" go and wash your mouths out). The code that is stored on it is software if it represents instructions for a computer. I would include embedded data (like messages the program might print) to be part of the "software", even though (you hope) they are not stepped through by the program counter. I'm not sure where you draw the line on this one - is a separate message file (a man file, for example) still software? A ROM chip is hardware. The program in it is software. Because it is stored in a ROM chip it is _also_ firmware. (IMHO). Philip.

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

It's those hard drives that cause those common PSU failures! If you plug them in while the PSU is running, you'll see why someone made the remark that switchmode power supplies don't like switching loads. I know . . . I do it too, but it's one of the most frequently ignored cautions. Dick -----Original Message----- From: LordTyran <a2k(a)one.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 7:27 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> >The typical peecee PSU that you usually see in consumer stuff is not >> >that good. More like it's rated 180W max load constaniuous or so >> >for a typical 200W PSU. > >If you're lucky. I just bought (and returned) a POS PC with a 75 watt >(rated) PSU. No joke. I like to put a nice, 300W PSU in all the computers >that I build beacuse they're really not the much more expensive... and a >lot cheaper than replacing a lot of hard drives.. > >Kevin >

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 08/18/1999 10:20:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick(a)idcomm.com writes: > The unfortunate fact, Tony, is that here in the U.S, because people are > accustomed to paying <$25 for a case with power supply (250 Watts is the > rating) including shipping, it's hard to get vendors to stock replacement > fans of any sort, let alone good and quiet ones. Man, that's a fact. Our wholesaler sells cases with (crap) 250 watt power supplies for US$20, 250 watt (crap) power supplies by themselves for $19, and (crap) replacement fans for $15. Can anyone provide a clue as to why this is so? Basic economics suggests that it costs a *lot* more to produce a case w/psu than a psu alone -- likewise for the psu vs. the fan . . . Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 3 months

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imsai 2

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: jpero(a)cgocable.net <jpero(a)cgocable.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:20 PM Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:54:21 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: imsai 2 >> X-To: <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> >Ship! > >> WHile I've only had about half a dozen motherboards die over the years, I've >> got a 55-gal drumful of dead power supplies, on most of which the fan is >> what failed. In many cases, the fan fails and then the supply gets hot and >> dies. > >Snip! > >The typical peecee PSU that you usually see in consumer stuff is not >that good. More like it's rated 180W max load constaniuous or so >for a typical 200W PSU. >If one have a Astec, SPI any decent quality make with ball bearing >fan, count on it that it will keep working and working and fewer >problems, mystery rebootings etc. > So what does one of these PSU's with a fan that lasts cost? > >We also have seen one or two blow out most of guts in peecee by a bad >quality PSU made by Evermax model. And few ATX PSUs in row that it >acted like reset button that resets machine by simply push on that >bottom pan where circuit board is. Those PSUs were only few months >old. (!!) This one I think was also by Enermax or one other I >forgot. Most of old out of warrenty PSUs were caught early with >gummed or worn out fans and we simply replaced it with sunon ball >bearing fan type. And on other items we solved this problems by only >selling ONE BRAND, Aceropen for cases and cdrom drives. Seems that >two items Acer shines well. > >That 55 gal drum of that PSUs, I bet all were sleeve bearing fans and >low quality overall. Also capacitors all dried up in some, blown >switchers, diode network. Blown out main transformer is thankfully >rare. > > Well . . . let's see . . . fan = $40 in q1, power supply including fan = $33 in q1. . . cabinet, including power supply and fan = $22 in q1 . . . not hard to figure out which they were . . . and they're marked 230 or 250 watts, BTW. > >Wizard

26 years, 3 months

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