- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

Deciphering M792-YB "ROM Diode Matrix" PDP-11 bootstrap

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

In my ongoing excavations, I've located an orphan board that I would like to return to its nest. It's a diode-strapped boot card, M792-YB. The pattern looks like this... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - o o o o o - - - - - o - o o o 0 o o o - - - - o - - - - - - - - - o - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o - o o o o o - o o o o o o - o o - - - o - o - o o o 10 o o o o o o o o - - - - - - - - - - - o - o o o o o o o o - o o o o - o o - - - o - - - - - - - - - - o o o o o o - o o o o o o 20 o o o o o - - - - o - o - o o o o - o o o o o o o o o - o o o o o o o - o o - - - - o - o o o o o - - - - - - - o o o o o o o - 30 o o o o o - - - - - o - o o o o - - o o - - - - o o o o o o o - W o o o o - o o o o o - o o - o o O o o o o o - - - - o - o - o o o R - o - o o o o o o o o o o o o o D o o o - o o - - - - o - o o o - o - - - - - - - o o o o o o o - o o o - o o - - - - o - o o o o 50 o o - - o - - - - o o o o o o - o o o - o o o o o - o - o o o - - - - - - o - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o 60 - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 70 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0 BIT 15 (- = diode installed o = diode missing) The question is, What's a one and what's a zero? Left-to-right? I don't have an -11 frontpanel or handbook in front of me; is bit 0 the MSB? Any hints? Worst case, I could translate all permutations of the bits into octal and figure out what produces the most legible bitstream, but I'd rather go into this with a little foreknowledge. The eventual goal is to disassemble the bootstrap, thus revealing what device it is for. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

> ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many >> modern-day engineers would realise the significance. Well, I'd assumed that f stood for filament. ___ Hey, perhaps Vcc is cathode voltage! > This is the point that zeners change from avalanche to > some other kind of break down that I can't remember > the name of. These made good noise generators. > Or, could you be talking about filiment voltages? > Dwight I was taught, avalanche breakdown above 5V, Zener breakdown (of course) below, but I'd always assumed that both mechanisms were present around the changeover point. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 6 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Is it true that the first CPU-on-a-single-board was the DG Nova? >> (And it's a rather largish board, at that! Almost equivalent in >> area to all the boards in the PDP-8/E CPU put together...) >I'm not sure. The Nova certainly used large boards - 15" * 15" >- and while the original nova (and I believe supernova) and >nova 1200 got by with just one, it the 800 family used two of >those huge things. Since mechanical engineering was never a >strong suit at DG it's generally accepted to use a rubber mallet >or wooden drift to seat those boards into the backplane... And some of the later DG Nova-descended CPU's (for example, the S/230) packed an amazing amount of parts on those huge boards! Were you the one who posted looking for an S/130, Chris? Hate to tell you this, but I had a half-dozen of 'em two years ago - if you'd only been reading then! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

What I'm really after is small RAMs with separate ins and outs, and the current generation stuff doesn't seem to address that requirement. I guess I'll have to use a CPLD or FPGA with RAM inside. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 7:22 PM Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? >> >> So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all > >Good question... All sorts of useful, generic, devices are no longer >made. Oh, there are millions of complex chips for particular >applications, but just try getting a small RAM, or a simple UART, or... > >> sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any >> more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time >> <<10ns) and preferably in a small package. > > >Remember you can always use a larger static RAM that you strictly need >and just tie the unused address lines to a defined state (e.g. ground). >So possibly you could use the same chip for both problems. > >What about the cache RAM off a PC motherboard (is that still being made?) >It was pretty fast (15ns or better?), and 32K*8 skinnydips were used I >think. Or am I a year out of date again? > >-tony >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Memory says 82s129, I have the data sheet home in that 1971 signetics <> data book. I was my first ttl databook! < <The 82S129 was a fusible-link PROM. It was an actual device, and in <production until quite recently. And old... I had my data sheet out when I typed that... can you say transient ischemic attack {blonde moment}. I could, if I remember. <Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many <modern-day engineers would realise the significance. that's 6.3V AC, after all it is an indirectly heated cathode. ;) Don't forget the drain [as in spigot] or the bit bucket under it. <If anyone wants to get this data sheet, it's reprinted on page 605 of the <'Student Manual for the Art of Electronics' by Thomas C Hayes and Paul <Horowitz (2nd Edition, ISBN 0-521-37709-9) I consider that a classic, both the book and the data sheet. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Reminiscent of motoring in Germany. There the signs - and even the inhabitants >> - talk about speeds in km. NOT km/h, which is what they mean. Very >> confusing... > > No, that's no confusing, it's plain wrong. A speed does not have the > dimensions of a distance. Wrong it may be, but I assure you it _is_ confusing ;-) Not as confusing as tracks/side vs. tracks/disk, though, since 80km/s is not a sensible speed for a road vehicle (yet!)... Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

26 years, 6 months

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outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, those parts were OK, except that they are several orders of magnitude too slow. Volatility is not the issue, since it will be changed frequently, but it's VITAL that the parts be quick, i.e. 5-7 ns max, on address access and separate ins and outs would be best. I don't care if I waste 95% of the RAM, but it should have separate ins and outs, and I have seen VERY few of those, particularly in the speed i want. Any suggestions? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch(a)30below.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? >Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >>So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all >>sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any >>more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time >><<10ns) and preferably in a small package. > >Not sure who still *makes* them, but BGMicro and I think Jameco still sells >Moto 6810 & I think 68B10 parts - IIRC 128x8 parts. (No, not Meg, No, not >Kilo, but 128 Bytes... just to clarify ;-) > >Also, if you're looking for non-volitile, you could go with one of the >Dallas Semiconductor 12x887 parts - 14 bytes of control registers for the >onboard clock chip, and 114 bytes of general-purpose battery-backed RAM. > >BGMicro has some pretty weird stuff... including some really nice kits from >what I recall. www.bgmicro.com; I think they have a catalog online, if not >you can download it as a .pdf... > >Hope that helps, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

26 years, 6 months

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Wanted: Mac 128K/512K schematics and service manuals

by Marion.Bates＠Dartmouth.EDU

Hi, You might've already tried this, but on Apple's site you can search the Tech Info Library Archives for older product info: http://til.info.apple.com/tilarchive.nsf/Web+Search+Simple If you do a search for Macintosh AND 128k it turns up a bunch of articles, some with fairly technical info (pinouts and such). Good luck, -- MB --- "John Lewczyk" <jlewczyk(a)his.com> wrote: I've recently acquired one 128K and one 512K Macintosh and am looking for technical documentation on it (schematics, logic diagrams of pc boards). I thought that it would be easy to find on the web, but I've had no luck after more than a week of searching. Any help with schematics or service manuals would be appreciated. I've found some pdf files that have some rudimentary diagnostic procedures: "if the logic board is bad, replace it" "if the floppy drive is bad, replace it". The 128K's floppy isn't working, even after cleaning the coagulated lubricant and I am trying to diagnose the problem. Thanks! John jlewczyk(a)his.com --- end of quote ---

26 years, 6 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>A SMT unit *might* be interesting... I can get all the PCBs done I want for >free (must have some kind of standard blocks) but the SMT building might be >difficult. Can the new pick and place machines handle TO-3s [not on tape]? I >am sure I can find a surplus lot of a few thousand NPN/PNPs for pennies. Sometimes the cheapest man ends up paying the most :-(. When you get to designs like this, you have to have some rational scheme for pre-testing your parts before you start stuffing giant PCB's. DEC was quite proud of their part and module testing machines, and with good reason! I'm pretty sure that Poly-Pak's main source of parts was the reject bins at DEC and DG :-). (I can't be the only one here who remember Poly-Pak, can I?) Tim.

26 years, 6 months

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outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time <<10ns) and preferably in a small package. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 5:47 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> >> > > Signetics 82mumble WOM (write only memory) april first version. >> > >> > Oh, she's good. She's very good. >> >> And old... >> >> Memory says 82s129, I have the data sheet home in that 1971 signetics >> data book. I was my first ttl databook! > >The 82S129 was a fusible-link PROM. It was an actual device, and in >production until quite recently. > >I have here the Signetics data sheet for the 25120 'Fully Encoded 9046*N >Random Access Write Only Memory'. I suspect that's the one you're >thinking of. It includes graphs of 'Bit Capacity .vs. temperature', 'Iff >.vs. Vff', 'Number of pins remaining .vs. Number of socket insertions' >and 'AQL .vs. Selling Price'... :-) > >Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many >modern-day engineers would realise the significance. > >If anyone wants to get this data sheet, it's reprinted on page 605 of the >'Student Manual for the Art of Electronics' by Thomas C Hayes and Paul >Horowitz (2nd Edition, ISBN 0-521-37709-9) > >-tony >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Tristate didn't exist in the early days of TTL; the only way to do <busses was OC or with muxes. The way this affected the design of PDP-11 <CPUs is described at length in _Computer Engineering_. Actually it did at a premium cost. The other thing is it was a lousy bus driver. You had parts like 72125/6 and 8t97. The PDP-8E also reflected the open collector heritage and that fact also allowed some things like the ability to jam data to memory and "microcode" instructions. That and it was cheap. The offset was the absolute need for the bus loads module (terminated pullups). There was another benefit, a board that was not supposed to be selected and asserting a high (or not low) didnt fry the next board asserting a low. I encounted this for the first time on s100 (a dozen 8t97s vaporized) when a control signal failed and we had a bus jam. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

Eric wrote: >>Anyhow, the point is that if DEC copyrighted something in 1964, it >>IS still covered now, and the copyright belongs to Compaq unless it's >>been sold to someone else. To which I replied: >True, but in this case I think we're talking about copying the circuit, and >not the patent on the PCB artwork. And that's what is covered by a >patent, if anything. Oops! I got at least three things wrong in those two sentences. Let's try it again: True, but in this case we're talking about copying the circuit, and not about an exact copy of the PCB artwork. The artwork might be covered by a copyright, but the circuit is protected by a patent, and that's expired by now. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Anyhow, the point is that if DEC copyrighted something in 1964, it >IS still covered now, and the copyright belongs to Compaq unless it's >been sold to someone else. True, but in this case I think we're talking about copying the circuit, and not the patent on the PCB artwork. And that's what is covered by a patent, if anything. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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8T26 buffers (was Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives)

by edick＠idcomm.com

The National Semi DP8304 is a bidirectional bus buffer, but the 8T26 and 8T28 were only for a bidirectional bus on one side. The other side was separate in and out. They're not uncommon on S-100 boards. The DP8304 is bidirectional on both sides, like a '245. In fact it's exactly the same as the i8286. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 4:46 PM Subject: 8T26 buffers (was Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives) >> Not that I normally advocate this sort of cannibalism, but does not the >> Apple ][ use 8T26 bus buffers? They certainly are more common than OSI gear. > >No. Early Apple ][ used an octal bidirectional buffer whose exact part >number I've forgotten, but it was something like 8308. Later revs replaced >it with the 74LS245, which was not pin compatible. Some boards were >dual-patterned to accept either, although the socket was installed for >one, precluding the use of the other. > >8T26 chips are not that hard to find. I can probably supply some >if anyone needs them, although I'll charge a premium to cover my >handling costs.

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I've also been thinking about "cloning" a kinda 32bit clone of the <famous <TMS 9900. This chip had it's registers in memory and if such a design <would incorporate cache memory the results would still be respectable. <Especially if it could be done with programmable-asic technology. Doable and even without cache it can be fast as the moderm memory (under 10ns parts). Granted it doesnt take much to beat the old 9900 that clocked in at 4mhz for the "fast" parts and used 400ns memory. My favorite would be to do a stretch PDP-8, simple and could be very fast using FPGAs. Allison

26 years, 6 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:14 PM Subject: RE: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) >>Ok, so who would be interested in creating a repository of "generic" gate >>designs? >> >>Are the flip chip cards copyrighted? (Somehow I doubt Compaq would come >>after us if we started building them :-) > >The PC artwork might be copyrighted, but the protection on the circuit >design would be a patent. And the patents have (in the case of >the "classic" technology being discussed) almost certainly expired >by now. > >>Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of >>the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few >>boards. >> >>Have we ruled out using SMT technology? We could easily build a 16 bit >>register on a single flip chip sized card with SMT stuff. > >I, personally, don't think that surface mount is the way to go. I'd prefer >to see all the transistors in TO-3 cans, though of course real transistors >on flip chips often were TO-92's, and these offer a definite cost and >density advantage (as does SMT, but I think that's a bit too far!) The flip chips (R205 - Dual Flip Flop) used 61 diodes, 4 transistors, 24 resistors, and 8 capacitors. Most of the Flip Chips I have are pre '67 so they have the "round" transistors rather than the newer looking TO-92.I would not even want to build ONE of these! BTW: The modules were "Copryright 1964 DEC" so the patent is long gone. If anyone has a particular OLDER processor that would be interesting if converted to transistors then please email me (with any links to the CPU info if you have it). I do have quite a few analog flip chips so the processor *could* do something interesting. A SMT unit *might* be interesting... I can get all the PCBs done I want for free (must have some kind of standard blocks) but the SMT building might be difficult. Can the new pick and place machines handle TO-3s [not on tape]? I am sure I can find a surplus lot of a few thousand NPN/PNPs for pennies. If something can be put together here *collectively* (a LOT less parts than the usual Flip Chip board) I would be willing to buy some time on a Pick and Place around here and have it knocked out. john > >Tim. >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

These days, no one would seriously attempt to build a CPU equivalent using TTL SSI/MSI components simply because the packaging gets too much in the way of smooth data flow. I once built a 650x CPU equivalent on a 4"x6" wirewrap board using TTL SSI/MSI, but it was my goal to build one using the logic available to the original designers. That was not easy, but it fit only because of the efficiencies inherent in the 650x series timing and instruction set. If one were to do the same thing with an 8080 CPU design, I suspect it could be forced to fit on a board like an S-100 card. It might be difficult to do in "period" family logic, i.e. with the parts that were available to the designers of the 8080, though. If you'd like to convince yourself of this, take a look at the '72 TTL data book from T.I. or Signetics. If one were limited to 28-pin FPLD's and smaller, I think it could be done easily enough. That would take the emphasis off parts search and the occasional unavailability of some functions, while allowing some random logic to be localized in a single device rather than requiring several different flavors of AOI gates, expanders, etc. The internal data paths of the 8080 could more easily be done with today's tristate devices than back in '72-'74 with muxes of various types. There are FPGA cores, though . . . I personally think it would be fun to build an S-100 card to replace the 8080 LSI. It might well be possible to replace all the external support logic with the hardware that goes "inside" the device, and you could fiddle with the instruction set more or less like the folks with wire-wrapped PDP8 processors did from time to time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:25 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >> CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >One of the vendors of bit-slice components (AMD 2900 or clone, I think) >offered a board that emulated an 8080. In addition to being faster than >an 8080, you could of course modify the microcode to add or change >instructions. IIRC, it looked like the board had about fifty chips. > >If you didn't use a bit-slice, you'd have to use separate ALU, memory, >and shifter chips, and you'd wind up with even more. > >The early microprocessor architectures were designed based on minimal >transistor count for a single-chip implementation. This does not result >in minimal chip count if you implement the equivalent in 7400-series >chips. It is quite possible to design useful processors with a lot fewer >TTL chips.

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>The other thing is that the 9100 is incredibly simple. Seriously. HP >pulled all sorts of tricks to reduce the component count, not all of >which would be applicable to other designs. Not only did they pull all the tricks, but they made a very nice product in the end, too. Gees, there was this other HP engineer famous for low component counts, started this computer company in the 70's when HP decided they weren't interested in his ideas. I think the guy goes by the name Wozniak and for some reason I believe Apple is still around :-). Tim.

26 years, 6 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Doug Coward <mranalog(a)home.com> wrote: > Dave Dameron wrote: > > The bad chips were all made by TI. I, too, have had bad experiences with 1970s TI chips and pin corrosion. I'm wondering if that's the problem with my Heathkit H-27 controller. No broken pins but lots of blackened ones (silver oxides). > Four of the 5 broken chips are TI 8T26s and the fifth is a TI 74123. > --Doug Not that I normally advocate this sort of cannibalism, but does not the Apple ][ use 8T26 bus buffers? They certainly are more common than OSI gear. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

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Approaching Scrappers

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

You are quite right Mike. I personally know some of the owners/controllers of some of the largest scrap companies (thats how I get all my minis) and the guys I deal with get contracts to level factories and mills. They don't know what a PDP 8 is and don't care. They want to either relocate some of the major machinery or melt it before setting the explosives in the building. Most of these companies don't care if you'd be willing to pay $1000 or even $2000 for a PDP as most of the contracts they get are worth millions. Best approach I have found is accept ANY and ALL minis/mainframes that come their way. I don't dicker with them and don't him and ha... If they have an old Wang or some old IBM then I take it anyway and scrap it for parts... A company I am going into at the end of this month has minis that were installed before 1968. No one has any idea what they are and no one cares. The factory is being levelled in middle November and anything that is left will have the building dropped on it. (I did however find out from a prior purchasing officer that the systems I am pulling out are: Vax 11/780 - yuck, I'll trash that. IBM 360 and/or Classic PDP 8 (seems they possibly had both) and other minis that controlled various processes The controller refered to old system as a "huge computer that filled up a room , we didn't get rid of it because it wasn't worth moving". If you have deep pockets to buy every computer mini they find in an old factory then you can score quite often. john -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:36 PM Subject: Re: Approaching Scrappers >>on them, but to no avail. They have bigger fish to fry >>(like aircraft fuselage assembly jigs, for example). > >Man I am really suffering from rejection. One of the salvage joints I like >just made the back room closed to everybody including me. Bigger fish to >fry, insurance, theft, etc. and now nobody can look in the boxes. I'm >getting a bit shaky already, and the withdrawal hasn't even hit strong yet. >I gotta find a new yard to poke in soon, or who knows what could happen (I >might fix the upstairs toilet or something crazy). > >Maybe my point is approach with caution. Like it or not, you aren't the >thing that pays the bills at the end of the month. They may like that cash >once in awhile, but don't do ANYTHING to disturb the main money flow. Help >out if you can and the person wants it, ie sort out a box of cables etc. > >Nothing gets you in tighter with a scrapper than giving them leads. Give >them a contact that pans out with a contract, or even a one time deal, and >they may even answer your phone calls. > >

26 years, 6 months

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 3:13 PM Subject: Re: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) >At 02:28 PM 10/20/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >>Flip chips, M series and all were really dictated not by what could be put >>on a board but how many connections the bord could make. For a flip chip >>it was 18 or 36 (someone?). A 16 bit parallel load register like say a >>pair of LS573s would need 32 IO, plus power and controls. See the >>problem? > >Ok, so this suggests a possible solution/idea. We use simm sockets. You can >get them fairly cheaply, there is a wirewrap version, and the PC houses all >have a standard template for the bottom of the board. I suppose one could >even make a Q-bus that small (its 72 pins as well IIRC). You bring up a good point. If a board can be designed with TWO connections to the simm socket (one on top, and one on the bottom) so that you would flip the board for one operation and flip it the other way for another operation then prob. two different types of boards could be used for the whole CPU: ie: BOARD 1 side 1: 4 FF, 2 Inverters, 2 nand/nor side 2: 2 xor, 2 and/nor, ??? BOARD 2 side 1: one shot, pulse amp, etc.. side 2: more gates and inverters. limiting the CPU to two boards means I can ship it over to a manufacturer in Taiwan I have used before. 2 boards in 500 quantities/ea with just transistors and diodes(+ res + cap) is quite cheap. Maybe they would charge $2/ea. I designed a Frequency synthesized data transmitter (FM) with synth, risc chip, and many support transistors for a product. I could not keep up the production with my guys at the time so we shipped it off to Tiawan and they knocked them out in Qtys of 500 for $8 ea (PCB, parts, built and tested). I could not even buy the parts in qtys of 5000 for $8 here. Anyway, it seems this CAN be done quickly and cheaply if two boards can be standardized with a series of gates and flip flops. Should be serial, smaller and more fun! john > >Unlike Tim I think TO-3's would be way to much of a pain, but TO-92s are fine. > >--Chuck >

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of >> the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few >> boards. >Flip chips, M series and all were really dictated not by what could be put >on a board but how many connections the bord could make. For a flip chip >it was 18 or 36 (someone?). A 16 bit parallel load register like say a >pair of LS573s would need 32 IO, plus power and controls. See the >problem? > >Even TTL chips hit the wall in pins/functions per package. Exactly - it's not a question of "do we have the parts?" but "Can we connect all the parts together usefully?". Is it true that the first CPU-on-a-single-board was the DG Nova? (And it's a rather largish board, at that! Almost equivalent in area to all the boards in the PDP-8/E CPU put together...) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I have trouble with the notion of the uart filling a 9 x 11 board given >that I'm holding one that's occupying 4 x 5 inches in SSI. Yeah, the shift >registers would take a bunch of space but I don't see it using anywhere >near the amount of real estate suggested. I'd suggest a electromechanical (or optomechanical) UART instead. You know, like in a Teletype :-). >> A pdp-8 (early) had a pannel roughly 24"x50" with flip chip modules mostly >> transistors and the 4k core was a 10" tall rack section. for rough >> comparison. In many respects the 8080 is a far more complex CPU and would >> be significantly bigger. It would also be slow compared to the NMOS part. >I suspect you could build a pdp-8 using contemporary layout tools and discrete >technology that, excluding the core stack, was an order of magnitude smaller. And repackaging would also save a lot of money: a large part of the cost of a Straight-8 is all those gold plated fingers and edge connectors, and the backplane wiring. Get rid of that - so that your CPU resides on a single (even if large) PC board - and you're way ahead. (Well, way ahead if everyone else is still in 1965...) >> Doing it in ttl or bit slices would still be big, I've done that. using >> 2900 parts(ca mid to late '70s) the CPU equivelent was over 100 chips and >> filled 4 10x8" cards. >That sounds about right; I recall building a PDP-11 clone using 2901/2910 parts >as part of an undergraduate CPU architecture course in the same era and using >about the same number of parts. Of course it's also possible to do it on a single card using SSI and MSI TTL, maybe with a few bipolar PROM's. Take a look at the 11/04 CPU or the original Nova, for example. I recall - back in the mid-70's - that Radio Shack sold transistor-based logic module kits (PC boards) that could be strung together to make things like binary counters, etc. Does anyone else here remember these? Or, even better, still have the modules around? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Well . . . if you mean really discrete, i.e. no TTL SSI/MSI stuff, you need >to recall that a single flip-flop was resistors, capacitors and a handful of >transistors. >... >There, methinks you'd be talking about a board as big as your dining room >table, with miles of wire, and potentially millions of errors to correct. No, it doesn't have to be as big as a dining room table. Like I said, I own several examples of bit-serial processors implemented using discrete components - for example, my Monroe programmable calculator - which pack everything onto a few square feet of printed circuit board, and not incredibly dense PCB's at that. There are other examples of bit-serial processors in my collection - for instance, the HP 9100A - where there is some, but not much, integration used. The big PCB in the 9100A is the ROM, while the processor itself resides on a daughtercard! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well . . . if you mean really discrete, i.e. no TTL SSI/MSI stuff, you need to recall that a single flip-flop was resistors, capacitors and a handful of transistors. Really cramming the parts together still meant a flipflop took up space equivalent to, say, a postage stamp. I've seen claims that some old-style CPU's (e.g. 8080) could be built in programmable logic using fewer than 500 macrocells in a large CPLD. Now, that's a BUNCH of logic gates, maybe four transistors and some resistors, and 500 of these postage-stamp sized flipflops. There, methinks you'd be talking about a board as big as your dining room table, with miles of wire, and potentially millions of errors to correct. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 8:24 AM Subject: RE: OT: how big would it be? >>I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >>list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >>most others. >> >>Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >>components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >>CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >Well, others have guessed at the 8080 Clone, but I'll step in and point >out that if minimal part count is an important feature, then you can >get by with a *lot* less. Especially if you go to a bit-serial >architecture. (Something that's still mentioned in many computer >architecture textbooks, even if it isn't used much anymore!) > >How big? I'll venture a guess that a 12-bit serial CPU >could be done on one largish (i.e. a square foot) PC board, using >TO-92's, resistors, capacitors, and diodes. This isn't too far >out of line with many bit-serial designs from the late 1960's >(for example, many bit-serial desktop calculators used a PC board >- or two or three - about this size.) > >Total cost? Maybe $1500 in large scale production, including testing >costs. > >Of course, you now hook up memory to this CPU. Doing that with >discretes would be a chore! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Calling a DS 40 cylinder drive (like the ones in the original PC) an '80 > track drive' _is_ actually correct. > > > surely would not disagree that some people [incorrectly] refer to the > > 100-4 and 1.2M drives as an "80 track" drive. And you certainly won't > > However, I also agree with this. Common usage would call the PC 360K > drive a '40 track drive'. And I will also admit that I tend to make this > error myself :-( > > I will agree that the original statement is confusing, sure. And it's not > common usage. But it is still correct. Reminiscent of motoring in Germany. There the signs - and even the inhabitants - talk about speeds in km. NOT km/h, which is what they mean. Very confusing... Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

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Diablo 31/33 drives

by chris＠mainecoon.com

I'm looking for a diablo 31 or 33 drive (the 31 was the one with the door, the 33 is the one that you have to rip apart to get your pack out). I'm also looking for a Decision 3150 controller for same. While I'm wishing for the impossible, I might as well add the other (current) items on my wish-list: EDS mux boards for the Nova bus An Eclipse S/200 An Eclipse S/130 A paper tape reader. Hell, I'd be happy with an ASR 33 at this point. And in the only-in-my-dreams category: An original ("baby") nova or supernova An Eclipse S/230 Of course, if it's a 16 bit DG machine, something that plugs into same or something that just looks good sitting next to it I'm interested. Cash, trades or body parts. Thanks, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris(a)mainecoon.com chris(a)dtiinc.com http://www.mainecoon.com http://www.dtiinc.com

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Fixing an ST412?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, I believe I have one. I can't lay hands on the manual right away, but maybe by 10:00 pm (it's about 6:20 pm now) I'll have it in hand. IIRC, the index pulse is generated from a hall sensor which looks at the spindle. So long as you get only one index pulse per revolution, and so long as those revolutions are close to the rated speed (60 Hz) they should satisfy nearly any controller's needs and allow the drive to be low-level formatted. Dick Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:33 PM Subject: Fixing an ST412? >Short question : Does anyone have a Shugart ST412 service manual? > >Long Question : As some people here know, I'm slowly rebuilding a DEC >rainbow. And today it got to the point where it was worth trying to boot >it. It booted fine from the RX50 floppy drive, but not from the RD51 (aka >ST412) winchester. > >A little bit of probinf with a LogicDart revealed that the drive was >producing no index pulses, although it was spinning. There are schematics >for the older version in the IBM O&A techref, and using these as a >reference, I quickly found that the index sensor itself was producing no >output. > >Off with the logic board, and I found that the index sensor was loose in >the clamp, and about 1/4" from the arms on the motor that trigger it. >I adjusted it closer, tightened it up, put it all together, and it seems >fine. The 'Bow boots from the winchester and seems to be able to run >programs, etc. > >What I want to know is is there a proper procedure for adjusting this >sensor? Is there a particular value quoted for the gap between the sensor >and the arms? > >As I said, it's OK now, but I might as well do it right. > >-tony >

26 years, 6 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by mranalog＠home.com

> ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:41:47 -0400 "Bill Sudbrink" <bill(a)chipware.com> said: > I've hunted around on the web to no avail... > Can anybody give me the specs on these? According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual for the TM100-1 and TM100-2: Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5% Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk, TM100-2 500Kb per disk Bill, Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the cleaning. So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll be ready to fire this thing up. :) --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, I agree that you'd want to approach things differently than you do your work. Perhaps an attempt at wire-wrapping a processor with "period" components? I mentioned that I did that once. It wasn't until I tried that that I came to appreciate how thrifty the processor really is when compared with others. Of course, you may not find that to be fun either. Building an S-100-based 8080 core out of TTL offers an added benefit in that the 8080 timing logic suits the S-100 bus signal layout and timing. When you're done, there's a wealth of software you can play with. I would say you ought to be able to build a processor core twice as fast as the original 8080A, jet using only a single supply. It's not likely I'll do that, but it is a tempting notion. Dick -----Original Message----- From: daniel <daniel(a)internet.look.ca> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:06 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:33 PM >Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? > > >>Why not explore this problem from the standpoint of an FPGA? When you >>finish you'd still have the flexibility of a hand-built device, yet what >you >>learned in the process would potentially be of actual use? >> > >(if this was directed at me) > >I have to design that kind of crap now, every day. I just got *into* >transistor computers and find it quite interesting to see what games I can >play with old RTL type stuff. > >>Why squander your cash and intellectual resources on creating something the >>folks in the '70's electronics industry were striving to avoid when you >>could have the same mental exercise in a productive form that made the >>design and implementation of your architecture the core of your effort >>rather than issues which are no longer relevant, like power consumption, >>packaging, and finding the appropriate materials from which to build your >>device? Signal routing is the one issue which persists from that era of >>yesteryear when a CPU lived in multiple racks, but it's handled, at least >>superficially, by the development software. Sharing flipflop packages or >>gates between two circuits on a backplane with 50 cards of logic in it is >no >>easy matter. What's more, the propagation delays will slow your circuit >>down to cycles in multiple microseconds, while correcting the associated >>routing errors will take multiple days for each one. While it's not >>perfect, the FPGA approach allows you to have these experiences with a >>"virtual" closet-sized backplane with similarly "virtual" cards (modules) >of >>logic which you can design hierarchically and based on your needs, not on >>what the local parts vendor happens to have. >> > >I design high speed logic (some basic config cpu cores) now using Xilinx and >even some AMD chips (yes, I use to use the MACH stuff) all with various RISC >chips. I don't want to come home at night and *continue* the same type of >design work (or code). I find it more entertaining to work on an 8/S , not >drop one in a chip [though that might be interesting]. I try to spend my >time on the old systems which is what taught me back in '79 so much about >the new ones. > >This unit will be nothing more than a conversation piece (in my office, >hopefully doing some small task) and I hope to have some fun with quick and >dirty logic. > >If my PDP-8/S wasn't so *mint* in the rack I'd rip it out, drop it in a 8/E >table top case and drag it into the office to do something fun. > >john > > >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mike Cheponis <mac(a)Wireless.Com> >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >>Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:35 AM >>Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> >> >>>> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only >individual >>>> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would >>the >>>> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any >>guesses? >>> >>>It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of >transistors >>>required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >>>that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >>>transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >>>gates or whatever in the same device.) >>> >>>As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete >>transistors >>>are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >>>available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >>>be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. >>> >>>So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two >estimates: >>> >>>1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those >units) >>> >>>2) The number of transistors required. >>> >>>This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >>>estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. >>> >>>------ >>> >>>IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >>>something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >>>IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try >>something >>>like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix >G-15. >>>-That- could be entertaining... >>> >>>-Mike Cheponis >>> >> >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:09 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >On Wed, 20 Oct 1999, daniel wrote: > >> Allison: You worked on transistor 8s? How did they impliment the 20mA >> current loop. I posted a message a while back about how it *was* set up in >> this cpu. The schematics of a PT08 show nothing other than one TTY line >> right into the receiver board. > >It was a transistor level converter from logic levels to 20ma. the >circuit for wich is fairly simple. It was the serial/deserial hardware >that ate a few boards. As in the case of the most 8's the tx/rx data was >directly to the Accumulator. There were designs that would stall the >machine while the bits were serialized/deserialized and written one by one >to Acc. Saved registers but the cpu was stopped for about 1/10th second. > >Allison > I know that but do you know the original circuit used between the teletype and the receiver board? I have a simple circuit running now. The current backplane shows R107 (inverters) john >

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Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Ok, so who would be interested in creating a repository of "generic" gate >designs? > >Are the flip chip cards copyrighted? (Somehow I doubt Compaq would come >after us if we started building them :-) The PC artwork might be copyrighted, but the protection on the circuit design would be a patent. And the patents have (in the case of the "classic" technology being discussed) almost certainly expired by now. >Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of >the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few >boards. > >Have we ruled out using SMT technology? We could easily build a 16 bit >register on a single flip chip sized card with SMT stuff. I, personally, don't think that surface mount is the way to go. I'd prefer to see all the transistors in TO-3 cans, though of course real transistors on flip chips often were TO-92's, and these offer a definite cost and density advantage (as does SMT, but I think that's a bit too far!) Tim.

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Mike Cheponis <mac(a)Wireless.Com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:28 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would the >> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors >required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >gates or whatever in the same device.) > >As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete transistors >are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. > >So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: > >1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) > >2) The number of transistors required. > >This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. > >------ > >IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try something >like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. >-That- could be entertaining... > That might be an interesting thing to do but I have no information on any of those cpus. Really, have to sit down and find "the ulimate" cpu to transistorize. 4004 seems reasonable (from the new stuff), I would not want to try and build a staight 8 from scratch. I work heavily now with xilinx and embedded applications (pic and scienix). Allison: You worked on transistor 8s? How did they impliment the 20mA current loop. I posted a message a while back about how it *was* set up in this cpu. The schematics of a PT08 show nothing other than one TTY line right into the receiver board. >-Mike Cheponis >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>If my PDP-8/S wasn't so *mint* in the rack I'd rip it out, drop it in a 8/E >table top case and drag it into the office to do something fun. Will an 8/S fit in an 8/E table-top case? I don't have an 8/S myself, but in the pictures I've seen it looks to be a bit taller than the 8/E's 6 SU's (10.5 inches). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

A PDP-8 or a PDP-8/S. Both were made with transistors alone. PDP-8/S (filing cabinet) BTW: I am building an Intel 4004 or possible an 8008 with flip chip modules. Will tell you when I start it. john -----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:12 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >I'd say about the size of a HP 9100. But it isn't a 8080 clone. > > Joe > >At 01:40 AM 10/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >>list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >>most others. >> >>Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >>components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >>CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? >> >>pbboy >> >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

Do you have a list of bit-serial processors [without much integration]? I would be interested in finding more.......... hopefully. john -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:57 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >>Well . . . if you mean really discrete, i.e. no TTL SSI/MSI stuff, you need >>to recall that a single flip-flop was resistors, capacitors and a handful of >>transistors. >>... >>There, methinks you'd be talking about a board as big as your dining room >>table, with miles of wire, and potentially millions of errors to correct. > >No, it doesn't have to be as big as a dining room table. Like I said, >I own several examples of bit-serial processors implemented using >discrete components - for example, my Monroe programmable calculator - >which pack everything onto a few square feet of printed circuit board, >and not incredibly dense PCB's at that. > >There are other examples of bit-serial processors in my collection - >for instance, the HP 9100A - where there is some, but not much, integration >used. The big PCB in the 9100A is the ROM, while the processor itself >resides on a daughtercard! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:33 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >Why not explore this problem from the standpoint of an FPGA? When you >finish you'd still have the flexibility of a hand-built device, yet what you >learned in the process would potentially be of actual use? > (if this was directed at me) I have to design that kind of crap now, every day. I just got *into* transistor computers and find it quite interesting to see what games I can play with old RTL type stuff. >Why squander your cash and intellectual resources on creating something the >folks in the '70's electronics industry were striving to avoid when you >could have the same mental exercise in a productive form that made the >design and implementation of your architecture the core of your effort >rather than issues which are no longer relevant, like power consumption, >packaging, and finding the appropriate materials from which to build your >device? Signal routing is the one issue which persists from that era of >yesteryear when a CPU lived in multiple racks, but it's handled, at least >superficially, by the development software. Sharing flipflop packages or >gates between two circuits on a backplane with 50 cards of logic in it is no >easy matter. What's more, the propagation delays will slow your circuit >down to cycles in multiple microseconds, while correcting the associated >routing errors will take multiple days for each one. While it's not >perfect, the FPGA approach allows you to have these experiences with a >"virtual" closet-sized backplane with similarly "virtual" cards (modules) of >logic which you can design hierarchically and based on your needs, not on >what the local parts vendor happens to have. > I design high speed logic (some basic config cpu cores) now using Xilinx and even some AMD chips (yes, I use to use the MACH stuff) all with various RISC chips. I don't want to come home at night and *continue* the same type of design work (or code). I find it more entertaining to work on an 8/S , not drop one in a chip [though that might be interesting]. I try to spend my time on the old systems which is what taught me back in '79 so much about the new ones. This unit will be nothing more than a conversation piece (in my office, hopefully doing some small task) and I hope to have some fun with quick and dirty logic. If my PDP-8/S wasn't so *mint* in the rack I'd rip it out, drop it in a 8/E table top case and drag it into the office to do something fun. john >Dick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Cheponis <mac(a)Wireless.Com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:35 AM >Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? > > >>> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >>> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would >the >>> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any >guesses? >> >>It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors >>required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >>that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >>transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >>gates or whatever in the same device.) >> >>As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete >transistors >>are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >>available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >>be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. >> >>So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: >> >>1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) >> >>2) The number of transistors required. >> >>This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >>estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. >> >>------ >> >>IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >>something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >>IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try >something >>like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. >>-That- could be entertaining... >> >>-Mike Cheponis >> >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:25 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? <snip> >(And before y'all argue about backdraws, of course I know that >it is close to imposssible to get the TTL running at 1 MHz inside >the NMOS specs, but that can be solved by lowering the CPU clock >and selecting an aprobiate Application :) > >I just belive this would give a _great_ display - unlike all >these dump displays where they put a sack of transistors beside >a uP and tell you just that they are equivalent. > My point exactly. There is no practical application to build this like there is no practical reason not to junk every old computer around. They make a great display and are fun to play with. I'd rather have a few hundred Flip Chips doing something rather than collecting dust as *spares* on a shelf. john >Anyway >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Hey! That must be the same UART board I have lying about somewhere. It has a bunch of shift registers in to-5 cans (to save space) and calculates parity using a JK flipflop. This thread seems to have started with the notion of even building the flipflops from discrete transistors and passives. That 4x5-inch board would grow to the size of a closet door using that thechnology. What's more, the power would have to be distributed with #16 wire. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:46 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >>I have trouble with the notion of the uart filling a 9 x 11 board given >>that I'm holding one that's occupying 4 x 5 inches in SSI. Yeah, the shift >>registers would take a bunch of space but I don't see it using anywhere >>near the amount of real estate suggested. > >I'd suggest a electromechanical (or optomechanical) UART instead. You >know, like in a Teletype :-). > >>> A pdp-8 (early) had a pannel roughly 24"x50" with flip chip modules mostly >>> transistors and the 4k core was a 10" tall rack section. for rough >>> comparison. In many respects the 8080 is a far more complex CPU and would >>> be significantly bigger. It would also be slow compared to the NMOS part. > >>I suspect you could build a pdp-8 using contemporary layout tools and discrete >>technology that, excluding the core stack, was an order of magnitude smaller. > >And repackaging would also save a lot of money: a large part of the cost >of a Straight-8 is all those gold plated fingers and edge connectors, and >the backplane wiring. Get rid of that - so that your CPU resides on >a single (even if large) PC board - and you're way ahead. (Well, way >ahead if everyone else is still in 1965...) > >>> Doing it in ttl or bit slices would still be big, I've done that. using >>> 2900 parts(ca mid to late '70s) the CPU equivelent was over 100 chips and >>> filled 4 10x8" cards. > >>That sounds about right; I recall building a PDP-11 clone using 2901/2910 parts >>as part of an undergraduate CPU architecture course in the same era and using >>about the same number of parts. > >Of course it's also possible to do it on a single card using SSI and >MSI TTL, maybe with a few bipolar PROM's. Take a look at the 11/04 CPU or >the original Nova, for example. > >I recall - back in the mid-70's - that Radio Shack sold transistor-based >logic module kits (PC boards) that could be strung together to make >things like binary counters, etc. Does anyone else here remember these? >Or, even better, still have the modules around? > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Why not explore this problem from the standpoint of an FPGA? When you finish you'd still have the flexibility of a hand-built device, yet what you learned in the process would potentially be of actual use? Why squander your cash and intellectual resources on creating something the folks in the '70's electronics industry were striving to avoid when you could have the same mental exercise in a productive form that made the design and implementation of your architecture the core of your effort rather than issues which are no longer relevant, like power consumption, packaging, and finding the appropriate materials from which to build your device? Signal routing is the one issue which persists from that era of yesteryear when a CPU lived in multiple racks, but it's handled, at least superficially, by the development software. Sharing flipflop packages or gates between two circuits on a backplane with 50 cards of logic in it is no easy matter. What's more, the propagation delays will slow your circuit down to cycles in multiple microseconds, while correcting the associated routing errors will take multiple days for each one. While it's not perfect, the FPGA approach allows you to have these experiences with a "virtual" closet-sized backplane with similarly "virtual" cards (modules) of logic which you can design hierarchically and based on your needs, not on what the local parts vendor happens to have. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Cheponis <mac(a)Wireless.Com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:35 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would the >> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors >required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >gates or whatever in the same device.) > >As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete transistors >are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. > >So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: > >1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) > >2) The number of transistors required. > >This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. > >------ > >IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try something >like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. >-That- could be entertaining... > >-Mike Cheponis >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:49 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> BTW: I am building an Intel 4004 or possible an 8008 with flip chip modules. >> Will tell you when I start it. > >Those parts were in the 3000-6000 transistor bracket. I'd expect an 8008 >in flip chips would be bigger than a straight-8 (that's larger than an >8S). Why? The 8008 is register rich compared to the PDP-8 series and >for every bit in a register thats a flip chip (8008 is about 45 bits of >registers alone and then there are the FFs in the state logic). This >thing is going to be HUGE. The 4004 would be less ambitious but there are >still a lot of FFs in that part. I am going to impliment the instruction set serially... Hmm.. wonder where I've seen that before? I have run out of transistor/old computers to restore so I rfeally liked the 8/S and am going to do some fun stuff with a few hundred flip chips. john > >Allison >

26 years, 6 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by mranalog＠home.com

I wrote: > Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives > Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks I usually read my copy of the ClassicCmp Digest between midnight and 1 o'clock (when I receive it). And if I wasn't so busy copying this out of the manual, I might have read what I was writing. :) Bill wrote: > | | > | | > \ / > \ / > | | < BREAK HERE > | | > \ / > - Thats just where they broke! I used one of my wife's sewing needles to pry them out of the sockets. And it's most likely they broke when I removed the chips >from the sockets, but I'm not sure about that. Dave Dameron wrote: > The bad chips were all made by TI. Four of the 5 broken chips are TI 8T26s and the fifth is a TI 74123. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >most others. > >Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? Well, others have guessed at the 8080 Clone, but I'll step in and point out that if minimal part count is an important feature, then you can get by with a *lot* less. Especially if you go to a bit-serial architecture. (Something that's still mentioned in many computer architecture textbooks, even if it isn't used much anymore!) How big? I'll venture a guess that a 12-bit serial CPU could be done on one largish (i.e. a square foot) PC board, using TO-92's, resistors, capacitors, and diodes. This isn't too far out of line with many bit-serial designs from the late 1960's (for example, many bit-serial desktop calculators used a PC board - or two or three - about this size.) Total cost? Maybe $1500 in large scale production, including testing costs. Of course, you now hook up memory to this CPU. Doing that with discretes would be a chore! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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Tek 4014 was Re: tektronix 4006 terminal

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> wrote: > Ethan, > > They're in a surplus place near Orlando. They're covered with dust. They > look like they've been there a LONG time. I have no idea what they want for > them. Give me an idea of what they're worth. As usual, I have no idea. If I saw them locally (within a few hours drive), and priced at $50 each, I'd snap them up in a second. If they were tagged at $100 each, I might get them. $500 each, I'd leave 'em be. I am afraid for what it would cost to ship them to Ohio from central Florida. Several dollars per pound truck freight, no doubt, plus the effort/expense of palletizing. At least both should be able to go on the same pallet. Thanks for the tip, though. Generally speaking, my rescue range is 8 hours drive, but it had better be good to be at the edge. The last road trip I did was to Dayton for a 15Mb 11/750 plus some goodies. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

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Diablo 31/33 drives

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

Hi Chris. I just picked up a Nova 2 loaded with a Diablo 40 series drive, graphics unit, Kennedy 9800 tape, and a "network" interface. Along with it came 6 large boxes filled with manuals (schematics, interfacing, theory, software manuals, and languages,revision notes,nuclear reactor control software......). Also came was 130 pounds (I repeat 130 pounds) of paper tape software including every possible version of rdos, basic, fortran, algol, test tapes, (other languages)....[many unopened and not installed].... If you are looking for any documents or programs I probably have them and can make the images available to you. I have not powered up the system yet as I have to test everything first (and am too busy on the PDP-8/S finishing touches). john . -----Original Message----- From: Chris Kennedy <chris(a)mainecoon.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:33 PM Subject: Diablo 31/33 drives >I'm looking for a diablo 31 or 33 drive (the 31 was the one with >the door, the 33 is the one that you have to rip apart to get >your pack out). I'm also looking for a Decision 3150 controller >for same. > >While I'm wishing for the impossible, I might as well add the >other (current) items on my wish-list: > >EDS mux boards for the Nova bus >An Eclipse S/200 >An Eclipse S/130 >A paper tape reader. Hell, I'd be happy with an ASR 33 at this point. > >And in the only-in-my-dreams category: > >An original ("baby") nova or supernova >An Eclipse S/230 > >Of course, if it's a 16 bit DG machine, something that plugs into >same or something that just looks good sitting next to it I'm >interested. Cash, trades or body parts. > >Thanks, >Chris >-- >Chris Kennedy >chris(a)mainecoon.com chris(a)dtiinc.com >http://www.mainecoon.com http://www.dtiinc.com >

26 years, 6 months

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OT: how big would it be?

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >> CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > > One of the vendors of bit-slice components (AMD 2900 or clone, I think) > offered a board that emulated an 8080. In addition to being faster than > an 8080, you could of course modify the microcode to add or change > instructions. IIRC, it looked like the board had about fifty chips. > > If you didn't use a bit-slice, you'd have to use separate ALU, memory, > and shifter chips, and you'd wind up with even more. > > The early microprocessor architectures were designed based on minimal > transistor count for a single-chip implementation. This does not result > in minimal chip count if you implement the equivalent in 7400-series > chips. It is quite possible to design useful processors with a lot fewer > TTL chips. Er, Eric? He said, no ICs only modern discrete components... As Eric says, an 8080 clone or similar would not be good to do with TTL chips or something, but it might work well with discretes. How big? Depends on the routing technology: A few trannies to a PCB, standard modules where possible, do anything complicated on the backplane => as big as a PDB8 (which someone mentioned) - say a 2 foot cube. Something more modern, say a multilayer pcb covered with densely packed surface mount transistors => you might get it onto a board the size of an AT motherboard, or possibly two such boards (allow for plugs on one to go straight into sockets on the other, mount the boards side by side so you can place connectors in arbitrary locations over the board) Something in between is probably more practical - still pin through hole, single or possibly double sided, but with modern, denser PCB (or pen-wired) layouts, and not worrying about using standard modules (unlike DEC, you're not mass-producing) => it would probably be a rack full of Eurocards. (20 * 5 * 10 inches, roughly). Hmm, perhaps a double rack. 20 * 10 * 10. I haven't looked at transistor counts or packing densities so these are only guesses. My opinion (FWIW) is that while this might be a fun project, doing something with a machine that was originally designed this way (PDP8 again) might be more educational. Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

26 years, 6 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. > Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. > Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers > and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll > be ready to fire this thing up. :) Doug, I hope you don't mean you need to replace the chips with broken pins. This happened to a ROM in my oldest PET when I was trying to reseat it (poor contacts in sockets - I eventually replaced them with decent sockets). I stuck a thin piece of metal - a staple, as I recall - into the socket where the pin was supposed to go, and soldered it to the stub of the pin. Worked a treat! Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474

26 years, 6 months

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Tek 4014 was Re: tektronix 4006 terminal

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> wrote: > Speaking of Tektronix stuff, I spotted two Tektronix 4014s in a surplus > place today. Is anyone interested in them? Yes. Where are they? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

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Power supply pinout for HP Windows Client???

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

I got one of these today, a 425sx, sans powersupply. The sticker on the bootom is scratched and I can't read the power requirements, though it looks like it might read 20V....something. It's got a 4-pin jack on the side for power, if that helps... Aaron

26 years, 6 months

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tektronix 4006 terminal

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

Desktop 4800 baud max. Otherwise the same spec's as a 4010 IIRC. I might still have a manual somewhere. A company I used to work for used them on their low end mass spec's. Dan -----Original Message----- From: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 12:58 PM Subject: tektronix 4006 terminal >Hi, > >anybody knows any spec of it ? > >Anybody looking for one ? > >cheers, >emanuel >

26 years, 6 months

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My Biggest GRIPE, period...

by philclayton＠mindspring.com

>> I respectfully request that the parties discussing Ebay in gory detail >> please spare us all and take it to E-mail. >> >> Sheesh... > >I second that motion! > >Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com> For what its worth I think most discussions on the forum will naturally end when everyone is tired of the subject, and not when one or two individuals say it should stop. I think "My Biggest GRIPE" was a good topic since most of us trade on eBay, I think it was an important discussion. I know the subject has been on this forum many times before, but there are new users here and I am sure they learned many things from the discussion on the In's and Out's of eBay trading.. Personally I don't read discussions on PDP-8's or Vax's, Have never even seen one, and likely never will.. My interest is mainly Pre-DOS Micro computers. To be honest about 50% of all that's discussed here is not in my main interest, but I have no right to tell anyone here not to talk about the subject.. So if you need to turn on your "eBay" filter, I will just turn on my PDP-8 filter, mine is called "Press the delete key" it only takes 1/2 a second.. Phil..

26 years, 6 months

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DEC

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>4) If it has non-DEC stuff in it (like the memory is all 3rd party non-DEC >MOS RAM) then that would negatively affect the price. Some of the most valuable/useful stuff you might find in a PDP-(anything) can be the non-DEC stuff. For example, I wouldn't complain at all if I opened up an 8/E and found the OMTI Omnibus SCSI host adapter inside! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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DEC

by Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de

Well, I don't like to push anyone, but I still need some hints what a working PDP 8f is worth, or until which amount it isn't a compleete rip off. AFAIK at least two disk, fro 8" floppy and one tape drive is included (no idea about the types, since I'm no DEC-o-maniac at all). The machine is still in use, but may be replaced at any moment (replacement PC already set up). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

26 years, 6 months

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OSI C4P-MF board (was Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Doug Coward <mranalog(a)home.com> wrote: > The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. Thanks for mentioning this. One of the things I found in my weekend's DEC excavation is my C4P-MF motherboard. Someone on this list, perhaps you, Doug, expressed an interest in it. I know I have the service docs in a different box, but for now, I've found the board itself. The 40-pin chips have gone wandering (probably in my parts drawers); I'd like to know what sockets are supposed to contain what parts (probably a 6502A and a couple of 6821's) so I can locate them and put them back. I will probably never run across a real Challenger-4 for this to go into, and I have no interest at this point in fabricating the necessary accessories to make this useful. I anyone wants this board, contact me offline. I'm interested in trades over cash - 1970's micros of most kinds are interesting to me. Enjoy, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

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Fixing an ST412?

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1137 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991019/35170ec4/at…

26 years, 6 months

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Preventing cartridge tape stickiness

by rdd＠smarty.smart.net

Can anyone provide any information about the best way to preserve cartridge tapes, such as DC300 tapes, so that parts of the tape don't stick together? Using new 3M DC300 tape several years ago, onto which I'd copied the source code to the S.6 version of the Accent operating system, the tape stuck together about two years later and was destroyed when I tried to read it. Not sure how to try to preserve the rest of the data, written with the Stut (the streaming tape utilitu software) software, that's still on the tape - any ideas? -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting.

26 years, 6 months

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DEC

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> AFAIK at least two disk, fro 8" floppy and >> one tape drive is included (no idea about the types, since I'm >> no DEC-o-maniac at all). >The types make all the difference if someone wants a "real" price as >opposed to a "haul it away" price. If I had to guess, I'd expect that >it had a pair of RK05's, an RX01 and a TS03. It's only a guess, but >it's a somewhat typical pure-DEC system. My guess would be a TU56 (DECTape) drive rather than TS03, but again, we're just guessing :-). Reminds me of the apocryphal story of the old lady who's son died in a hunting accident. She calls up a local car dealer, and asks how much her son's car might be worth. Dealer asks her what the car is, and she replies "a '67 Chevy". The dealer says that such an old car probably isn't worth much more than $100 on today's market, so she puts an ad in the paper and sells the car right away, for $100. Of course, the buyer was very happy with his purchase, for it turned out this '67 Chevy was a finely-preserved Corvette Stingray! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

1
0
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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com> wrote: > I've hunted around on the web to no avail... > Can anybody give me the specs on these? Try http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/stepper/tm100/ It has _some_ info, but you didn't say what in particular you were looking for. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

5
7
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DEC

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> wrote: > Well, I don't like to push anyone, but I still need some hints > what a working PDP 8f is worth, or until which amount it isn't > a compleete rip off. Recently on eOverpay, a friend of mine got over $400 for an as-is, not guaranteed to do more than not smoke PDP-8/L with no peripherals, software or docs. > AFAIK at least two disk, fro 8" floppy and > one tape drive is included (no idea about the types, since I'm > no DEC-o-maniac at all). The types make all the difference if someone wants a "real" price as opposed to a "haul it away" price. If I had to guess, I'd expect that it had a pair of RK05's, an RX01 and a TS03. It's only a guess, but it's a somewhat typical pure-DEC system. There's the possibility of third party stuff at any turn. What would I pay for it? Not more than a few hundred. Of course, that means that many others would no doubt snatch it out from under me, but them's the breaks. I'm not going to pay $1000+ for an -8. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

1
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Approaching Scrappers

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Randy: Approach these guys as often as possible, because timing is everything. The one I deal with here locally, doesn't care a whole lot about 'collectability' (which is actually a blessing, because I can get stuff so cheaply). As a result, if you're not there before it gets torn down (or rained upon, as applicable), you're out of luck. I recently missed a VAX 6000 this way. Never saw the machine; just the (broken) bits in the bin when 'Axel' was done with it. I recently uncovered a bin filled with HP 98xx's (sorry Joe). It was obvious they had been under water for a *LONG* time. Heartbreaking. I've told them time and again that they should give me a call when new material arrives with the d|i|g|i|t|a|l or hp logo on them, but to no avail. They have bigger fish to fry (like aircraft fuselage assembly jigs, for example). Anyways, all I can offer you is to be vigilant, and poll the yard frequently. They recently chopped up a NOVA IV-- all I got was the 8" FDD's. Sigh. Jeff On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 06:25:05 -0400 Randy Kaplan <rkaplan(a)accsys-corp.com> writes: > Hello to all - > > Has anyone used/approached scrappers as a source of collection? If > so, > what has been your experience? How do you approach these guys? > > Thanks, > > Randy > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

26 years, 6 months

3
2
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PDP 11/44 Epson printer driver

by lopareja＠man.amis.com

Folks I have PDP 11/44 and I had problem converting the old printer to new one , i would like to run an Epson printer LX300, Can you help ! I think i need printer output signal of the PDP to Epson ...etc. pls E-mail : lopareja(a)man.amis.com Thanks Lorence

26 years, 6 months

3
2
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Approaching Scrappers

by edick＠idcomm.com

A couple of relatively important things to keep in mind: (1) scrappers sell the items they collect as scrap. Homogeneity is important to this pursuit, i.e. unpainted pure aluminum scrap is more valuable than mixtures of painted and unpainted aluminum, and there must be no non-metal or non-aluminum mixed in, else the value goes WAY down. This means that they have to add labor to the mix before they can scrap most computer components, e.g. disk drives. (2) they are ALREADY in business and ALREADY plan to make money with what is in their lot. They already know what they will get for their stuff once it's "cleaned" and sorted. That often means they have to add considerable amounts of labor in order to get top prices. (3) they already know that there is some stuff that YOU will pay for if you think it's going to be of value. Some people will pay more for old stuff than others, though and they know it is out there, though they don't know what YOU specifically want. If you treat them as though they know their business, and as though you know yours, i.e. with appropriate respect, even though you may not believe either to be true, a simple question at the outset about how he wishes to set prices on the type of materials you wish to take home is probably all you need to get started. Many yards have these prices posted somewhere, so look around and read the signs before you start asking questions. It might not hurt to start with a "look around" the yard. If you see others collecting what you think might be of interest to you, then watch and listen. You'll be surprised what you can learn! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Randy Kaplan <rkaplan(a)accsys-corp.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 4:31 AM Subject: Approaching Scrappers >Hello to all - > >Has anyone used/approached scrappers as a source of collection? If so, >what has been your experience? How do you approach these guys? > >Thanks, > >Randy > >

26 years, 6 months

1
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Getting a 1401?

by mac＠Wireless.Com

I'd like to acquire an IBM 1401. It would also be nice to have the companion 1311 disk, and perhaps the 1402 Card Reader/Punch and 1403 Chain Line Printer. Does anybody on this list have such a system, or know were I could get one? Thanks! -Mike

26 years, 6 months

1
0
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Approaching Scrappers

by rkaplan＠accsys-corp.com

Hello to all - Has anyone used/approached scrappers as a source of collection? If so, what has been your experience? How do you approach these guys? Thanks, Randy

26 years, 6 months

2
1
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Vax 4000-305A - what is it?

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

A couple of weeks ago, I was told that a vax was to be thrown out at work. I assumed it was the rather nice pair of Vax 9000 machines that was our main server for many years, but alas no. It is a Vax 4000-305A (with some well cool disk and tape accessories) It is a desktop box but lives in a DEC 3/4-height 19-inch rack that used to house a machine called SF200. Another shelf in the rack houses a fun-looking tape drive of which I can't remember the number, and two SCSI boxes (the sort that take about 8 drives in one box) are standing on the floor of the rack. Anyway, what sort of machine is the 4000-305A? AFAIK it was running VMS when last it was running... (The other question is... Where do I put it??? With luck, I may have rented somewhere suitable within the next couple of weeks, but I don't know. And then there's the SGI monitor I got given today. Aargh!) Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 6 months

1
0
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My Biggest GRIPE, period...

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> > I respectfully request that the parties discussing Ebay in gory detail > please spare us all and take it to E-mail. > > Sheesh... I second that motion! Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 6 months

1
0
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Wanted: MOSTEK 387x Manual

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

I'm looking for a Mostek 3870 Databook from 1981 (I've got an older one; for that matter I've got the 1981 version too, but it ended up getting peed on by rodents in the basement of my old house while we were moving... *sigh I hope that wasn't some kind of mouse social comment; they didn't touch the Zilog Z-80 manual or the Intel 8086 book right next to it.) I've got a bunch of the 3874's & 3876's with EPROM sockets on the back; we've used several in personal projects. That book was extremely useful, but now it's not something I want to get close to; it's sealed in a plastic bag in case we come up with a way to deodorize it but... *thud. Any help would be appreciated! :-) (Wonder what happens if you bake a book in a kiln or something at 250-300 degrees for a few hours? Would that take the smell out? It's not sticky - just *stinky*.) -Bill Richman (bill_r(a)inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.

26 years, 6 months

5
7
0 0

Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by edick＠idcomm.com

I've got a -4A with a sticker on the door latch which says 96tpi. Do these also come in 100? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 1:24 PM Subject: Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives > > >On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >There should be a dash number associated with the TM 100, Bill. IIRC, >-1A is SS 48tpi, -2A is DS 48 tpi, and 4A is either 96 tpi or 100 tpi. > > - don > >> I've hunted around on the web to no avail... >> Can anybody give me the specs on these? >> >> Thanks, >> Bill Sudbrink >> >> >

26 years, 6 months

3
3
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Outbid

by rkaplan＠accsys-corp.com

Hello all - About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top bidder until the end. Of course the end was when I was asleep (3 AM) this morning (serves me right for sleeping). Got up and was very disappointed. Since the recent discussion about collectors vs. enthusiasts I thought I would share this with the group. As a new collector, I have been reading alot about sources and establishing networks but they are not in place yet so one of my main venues is ebay at this time. I plan to start contacting scrappers, universities, and friends in companies soon. But, alas, today a PDP-11/23 flew by. Randy Kaplan

26 years, 6 months

9
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I EBay snipered these PDP extenders last night. Did anyone else see them?

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

I got two quad (looks to be originals for the 11) PDP extender cards for $21.50! I had to get up at 1 in the morning to nail it. If the spacing is the same on either side of the middle "slot" then I guess I just have to cut them down the middle for the PDP 8? Sorry "flipchip". http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=179610883 The guy had it listed under "Photo Electronics" with no PDP nor Digital in the subject/description. john -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)wfi-inc.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 3:03 AM Subject: Re: EBaying; howling after an auction > > >On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >Sniping is the art of ignorance on the value of something. >> >> Huh? No, man. Sniping is a means to an end. Nothing more, nothing less. >> Not entirely "nice", not entirely what the eBay designers had in mind, but >> extremely effective. > >I'd have to agree with Marvin. You don't bid early on something because >you don't want to attract attention to something that might be mis-labeled >or poorly described. If other people don't know what it is, and the >bidding price stays low, you bid in the last 5 seconds and get it for much >less that you would have had a bunch of people been after it. > >Myself, I go on eBinges. I might spend a couple of days pouring over ads >for stuff that I've been looking for for a long time. Sometimes I buy >things just to buy them; once I bought an IBM thermal printer for $.25 and >paid $5.00 shipping for it. Recently I got an IBM Fortran manual for a >buck or so, and the guy just sent it without payment. What else...oh yeah, >I picked up a SCSI adapter for an Atari ST for $1.00, because the guy had >it listed only as "SCI Adapter"...total fluke, because I myself misspelled >"scsi" in the search... > >I'm certainly no power user of eBay (shallow pockets, too lazy to ship >things), but I find that their format drives me to "snipe" things, but I >look at it, as Marvin said, as a Sealed Auction way to buy. People who try >to be *fair* about bidding there, when their system doesn't cater to the >kind of fairness that allows everyone to have their turn to bid until >the last call, just end up frustrated and disappointed. > >My .02, > > >Aaron > > >

26 years, 6 months

3
2
0 0

Oz auction site & wanted list.

by black＠gco.apana.org.au

There ain't a great deal there, but Oz users can go to an Aust. auction site at www.sold.com.au I managed to pick up a PET 8032 plus dual drive for $27 & a whole heap (read - boxes full) of C64 equipment & software. With a bit of luck, more will become available. Now for the wanted list (preferably Oz, but will consider o/s if required): Commodore Plus4's, C16's & VIC20's plus s/ware, carts, manuals etc. C64's & 128's plus peripherals, software & manuals. Oz only (because of weight): Any type of PET plus peripherals (working or not). And I'm not likely to get either of these, but it's worth a try - a KIM-1 (possible) & a C65 (buckleys chance) // Lance Lyon black(a)gco.apana.org.au llyon(a)primus.com.au Ph: +61-3-6254-7376 Mob: 0416-012-331 //

26 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

Dec ID questions

by Innfogra＠aol.com

I am interested in finding out what some of these DEC products are and what systems they work on. Console panel KY11C M7228 KW11P RTclock M8265 CPU? M8266 CPU? M8090 ICS Controller? M6850 W7430 A005 Relays A007 Relays More of this batch are coming in. Also these, prob. OT due to age, but I am still curious. DEC 400X with RF31s & a TF 85. What size are the RF 31s & the tape. What systems does the 400X plug into. It looks like it has both SCSI I & SCSI II ports. DEC BA 350-KB case SCSI II BA 35X Power Module BA 35X-VA Power Supply TZ 87-VA Tape Drive No hard drives only the tape drive plugged in. I have another that is the same except the tape drive is a TX 87n-VA. What is the significats of the "n"? What is a DEC Infoserver 150? Thanks for the help. Paxton

26 years, 6 months

2
1
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Personal clutter: Jason Pero's private address needed

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

Hi Jason, I've tried to send mail a few different ways to your private return address with no luck... Aaron

26 years, 6 months

1
0
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Macintosh Hardware Question

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

Hello, Mac gurus... Can someone tell me whether the IIsi PDS slot is compatible with the PDS slot on the IIfx? I know that the PDS slot in general is fairly different between models, and the IIfx is fairly unique in a hardware context anyway. What I want to do is use a PDS-based video card in a IIfx, and it's a working pull from a IIsi... Barring that, does anyone know if there was ever a 3rd party video card for the PDS slot that is compatible with the IIfx? Cheers, Aaron

26 years, 6 months

2
2
0 0

VaxStation Questions

by sms＠antinode.org

Mr. Pietkiewicz: > 1) The output from a >>> sh mem command is: > 01000000 > 00000000 > 00FE3E00:00FFFFFF > What does this translate to??? I'd say 16MB (1000000 hexadecimal). > 2) What monitor would I need / be able to use with this box? I'm using > VT320 for a console now, but the thought of an OpenVMSWindows box has > potential.... Assuming the (cheaper) GPX graphics, 1024x864, 60Hz vertical (?), one DEC monitor is the (19-inch) VR299. A Web search on that should provide more details. If you got the (deluxe) SPX graphics, then it's 1280x1024, 67Hz vertical (?). I'm using an HP 98754A on my AlphaStation, and I'd bet that it'd work with an SPX card in the VAXstation, too. You could steal the keyboard from your VT320 (or a VT220, and probably others). The mouse (DECburger) is a VSXXX-AA, and it's pretty DEC-specific. > 3) When I try to boot from the external RZ55 I got with it, VMS 5.5.2 > comes up and hangs (solid) after displaying: > %TMSCPLOAD-I-LOADTMSCP, loading the TMSCP tape server > This happens even trying to boot to VMS's single user mode, and > with or without a TK50Z attached... What's "VMS's single user mode"? Whether the tape drive is connected should not affect this, agreeing with your observation. I suspect that it is trying to form or join a cluster, and, as its old cluster pals are all missing, it's unable to get a quorum. You need to do a conversational boot, and set the SYSGEN parameters VOTES and EXPECTED_VOTES both to 1 (so it won't expect to find anyone else), or else VAXCLUSTER to 0, so it won't do any cluster stuff. The procedure's probably in the FAQ, ""ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/dec-faq/vms"", but something like the following might be close: >>> B/1 [device, if necessary] SYSBOOT> SHOW VOTES \ SYSBOOT> SHOW EXPECTED_VOTES /[If you're curious.] SYSBOOT> SET VOTES 1 SYSBOOT> SET EXPECTED_VOTES 1 SYSBOOT> WRITE CURRENT SYSBOOT> CONTINUE [Begin hoping here.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home) 1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work) sms(a)antinode.org sms(a)provis.com (work)

26 years, 6 months

3
4
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My Biggest eBay gripe..

by mbg＠world.std.com

> My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is >time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a >fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. I have to agree (to a limited degree). The problem is that how do you decide on how long to extend it. If you are trying to help those people who might be asleep when their 'high bid' is topped, you have to remember that no matter when the auction ends, *someone* who might want it may be asleep. I'll admit to sniping and being sniped (sometimes I even send mail off to the winner saying something like 'Well sniped... :-)' ) The reason sniping is done is to get a bid in such that the others bidding don't have a chance to get in another bid. If the auction was extended by as litle as five minutes beyond the last top bid, you wouldn't stop sniping, but you would prevent people from playing the game just mentioned... there would always (so long as you were at a terminal) be time to bid again. But then you have the problem of being able to ensure, within some timeframe, the end of the auction. Also, it means they have to keep it on the books for longer... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 6 months

6
6
0 0

EBaying; howling after an auction

by musicman38＠mindspring.com

>>I have learned this myself so I am now bidding $X + 2 cents, that give me >>the edge over the " + 1 cent " crowd.. <<< GRIN >>> !! > >What now? Bidding up the $X + n cents edge? <<< BIGGER GRIN >>>! > >Have fun with it, from one who varies his $X + n cents and keeps it a >secret ;-), Chris >-- -- > >Christian Fandt, I agree with having fun on eBay, it is a lot of fun sometimes.. Also have had a lot of fun seeing how close I can get to the end of the auction, like kicking in my maxim bid at exactly 5 seconds remaining.. Depending on the traffic load on eBay server at the time, I have scored a bid (Victory) with only 1 second remaining.. (Can you heard the crowds cheer). Sometimes I have also lost this way because the server on eBay was running slow and I got the very unpleasant notice that "The bidding is now closed on this item" << GRIN >>.. Seriously though if you see something you really want I suggest not to bid on it till the last 15 seconds, then place your maximum bid. Bidding early will only drive the price higher.. In a way all auctions on eBay are sealed bids simply because you do not know what someone else will bid in the last few seconds.. And in that respect its kinda fun.. So I say if you want to play the eBay game, better play the same way others do.. So have fun... Phil..

26 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

OT: Not-classic Hardware Freebie

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

I've got the mainboard and cpu card from an AST Manhattan P5090 server (dual Pentium-90 sockets) that are marked "non-working" with no further details. IIRC, we pulled this from service a couple of years ago and it didn't want to post when we tried to test it sometime after that. If someone wants this, let me know. Otherwise it finds it's way to the round file...

26 years, 6 months

2
1
0 0

HP treasures available

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

If interested, please contact Grace Ortschied directly at grace(a)numacorp.com... Available immediately: HP2680A laser printer (2) 7978A tape drives Possible available in December (ask her for specifics): 979/200ks w/185GB, dds, mag drives, 2563 & 2566 printers. Wow! If anyone can rescue the stuff, she'd really appreciate it. She really doesn't want to scrap anything. And if anyone ends up negotiating for the 979/200ks, let me know how it is! Cheers, Aaron

26 years, 6 months

2
2
0 0

EBaying; howling after an auction

by musicman38＠mindspring.com

>There are a few eBay tricks. Bidding you maximum by $X + 1 cent or = 51 >cents etc. Most people bid in even dollar amounts. Adding 1 penny to >our maximum bid often gets you the item. A lot of people know this so >now they add 51 cents. It has worked for me several times. I have learned this myself so I am now bidding $X + 2 cents, that give me the edge over the " + 1 cent " crowd.. <<< GRIN >>> !!

26 years, 6 months

2
1
0 0

DEC boards unearthed - I have some info

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Yes, it is. It was called the 11/05 in 72 but later docs called it the >11/10. The 11/05 and 11/10 are the same CPU... If I remember correctly, the difference in designation was based on whether it was OEMed or not. Same for the 11/15,20 and the 11/35,40 >Anyway, do you have an 11/05 running and do you have any PDP 8s you >collect? I have a working 11/05 (with two core stacks -- the original 16Kw MM11-?? memory which came with it, and a 16Kw MM11-DP I got for it at a later time). I also have several pdp-8s... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

Frustration..and part of the RT11 System Manual is Online

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

The perfect end to today... Somehow, I've lost my backup to the image files of an RT11 System Manual. Ugh. At any rate, I was able to put the first 4 chapters and TOC online today...I'll try to get the rest re-done as soon as is humanly possible. <sob...all those hours scanning...gone...> What's left is here: http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/classiccmp/library/rt11_system_manual/ Aaron

26 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

Wanted: Mac 128K/512K schematics and service manuals

by jlewczyk＠his.com

I've recently acquired one 128K and one 512K Macintosh and am looking for technical documentation on it (schematics, logic diagrams of pc boards). I thought that it would be easy to find on the web, but I've had no luck after more than a week of searching. Any help with schematics or service manuals would be appreciated. I've found some pdf files that have some rudimentary diagnostic procedures: "if the logic board is bad, replace it" "if the floppy drive is bad, replace it". The 128K's floppy isn't working, even after cleaning the coagulated lubricant and I am trying to diagnose the problem. Thanks! John jlewczyk(a)his.com

26 years, 6 months

2
1
0 0

EBaying; howling after an auction

by fpp＠concentric.net

There are a few eBay tricks. Bidding you maximum by $X + 1 cent or = 51 cents etc. Most people bid in even dollar amounts. Adding 1 penny to your maximum bid often gets you the item. A lot of people know this so now they add 51 cents. It has worked for me several times.

26 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

PDP 8/S webpage with many pictures

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

I quickly threw together a page on my PDP 8/s system I have just finished restoring. Many pictures are online so please wait for them to load. My priority right now is to have this unit connected to the internet so folks can play with it online. I will have a *proper* web page online soon with it's own domain name. http://www.bordynuik.com/8s.htm john

26 years, 6 months

2
1
0 0

Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com> wrote: > > you didn't say what in particular you were looking for. > > Well, they have NorthStar QC tags on them dated 8-4-80. > I thought that N* tended to be hard sectored and wanted > to know for sure. Hard vs soft is a controller issue, not a drive issue (at least for non-customized drives like those found in the Commodore 4040, et al.) The drive has to have a sensor for the index hole. The Tandom TM-100 series does. It is ignored in most applications. > There is a little paper tag next to > the metal tag with a "2A" on it, so I'll assume from Don's > message that they are 48 TPI double-sided. That would be the case. It is the exact model used in the first IBM PCs and XTs. My Kaypro II has a pair of TM-100-1As. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

A.B. Dick Magna-writer?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

I was offered the following system: >The other machine is an A.B.DICK Magna-writer. This is a 8085 based >machine with 64K of ram, two internal 250K floppy drives and a built-in >monochrome monitor. This is a monster. I would bet that with the keyboard >it weighs over 70 lbs. It was working well also, last time I checked. >There is also a matching Diablo 630 daisywheel printer that goes along >with the system." Should I jump for it? It's near me, outside Madison, WI. - John

26 years, 6 months

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Zenith Terminals

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: > H19 or Z19 (kit or assembled) terminals and they are VT52 compatables. As has been mentioned here extensively, I've been restoring an H-11. It includes an H19 that I haven't even turned on yet. If I run into trouble, does anyone have docs I could get a copy of? Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

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Zenith Terminals

by dlw＠trailingedge.com

I picked up a couple of Zenith Data Systems Terminals this weekend. I can't find any indication of a model number anywhere on them. They look sort of like the Heath H-89 system (I think that's the one) but without the built in disk drive. Any one tell me what model this is? I can get a pic up on the web if that would help you out. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw(a)trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com

26 years, 6 months

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Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives

by bill＠chipware.com

I've hunted around on the web to no avail... Can anybody give me the specs on these? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink

26 years, 6 months

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SGI PowerCenter 4d/210 parts FS

by Joe_Gill＠spe.sony.com

I have everything but cards, power supply and the rack itself up for grabs - rackmount cage and backplane, two hard drive shelves, 1.2 GB (!) CDC HD, the CPU meter plate, the four fans, screws, etc.... I am in SoCal, and due to the size pickup might be the way to go. I got these for cheap, and am passing that on to whomever may be interested. Email me if you are interested in these before they go to eBay.... Joe

26 years, 6 months

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NEC Phone System PCBs

by wsmith＠gj.com

I have unearthed a box full of late 1970s PCB's for an NEC phone system, called "Patrician" I believe. Lot's of interesting things plugged into them. Free for the shipping, which will probably be $5.00 by UPS ground if you're in CA. Wayne

26 years, 6 months

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My Biggest eBay gripe..

by jpl15＠netcom.com

My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an agreed-upon span. I have bought and sold hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of aerospace and industrial surplus at auctions large and small, sealed-bid and open-floor, honestly run and 'otherwise'. The reason I dislike the eBay model is that the item most often goes to the fastest/luckiest bidder (sniper)... and that's totally wacked, IMHO. I am not going to join the "capitalism vs. overvaluation" debate. I'm a captialist *and* a collector... that's internal conflict enough. I wonder how much tweaking would be involved on the part of eBay's logicians to convert it over to the more familiar "going, going, gone!" type of format. What do You All think?? Cheers John

26 years, 6 months

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More early -11 stuff unearthed

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

As the weekend progressed, I kept digging. Under a PDP-8/L I found an MM-11 box with five MM-11 backplanes (for the 4K sets), a peripheral backplane (KM-11?) a PSU, several UNIBUS jumpers, missing only the fans and bracket. Presumably now, I could assemble several MM11 sets and test them from some other PDP-11, say an 11/34, which happens to be nearby. Hopefully, additional digging will uncover the 11/20 cpu chassis. I did locate the box with the CPU boards and all the core drivers. The box had apparently gotten wet and some of the cut leads on the back of the board have rusted a little. I'll need to figure out how to get that stuff off before I power anything up. Another gem I thought I'd lost was my TVT-6 - a T.V. Typewriter I bought and assembled as a kid with lots of intentions of doing something interesting with it. I never even applied power. Looking back on the shape that board is in, I must say that I've gotten *much* better at soldering. :-) Perhaps I'll attach it to my SYM-1. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 6 months

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Zenith Terminals

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I picked up a couple of Zenith Data Systems Terminals this >weekend. I can't find any indication of a model number anywhere >on them. They look sort of like the Heath H-89 system (I think >that's the one) but without the built in disk drive. Any one tell me >what model this is? Sounds like the venerable Z-19 to me. I always thought of the H-89 as a Z-19 with a built in computer, not the other way around :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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Quake/Hurricane?

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> >So where was this quake for us less informed types? > > > >--Chuck > > A 7.0 about 30 miles N of Joshua Tree (that is, about 90 miles > ENE of downtown LA). See > Natural disasters are not unique to the left coast. This weekend, Huricane Irene visited South Florida and endangered some of my collection. Although there was very wind damage, there is a trememdous amount of rain associated with the storm. I got about 6" of water in my garage but was able to get almost everything off the floor before the flooding began. Luckly I was home when it started getting deep. Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 6 months

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My Biggest eBay gripe..

by edick＠idcomm.com

The eBay folks are making money, and that's what they set out to do. It's to their advantage to get the highest bids because they get a cut. Sealed bids don't necessarily get that, because, though they tap into the insecurity a bidder may have about what an item will bring, they don't tap into the last-minute feeding frenzy which often drives prices up. If you set up your bid so you enter your highest bid right away, but let the system make minimum incremental bids automatically each time someone overbids you, that's essentially the best of both worlds for the buyer. He can pay less than, but not more than, what is essentially a sealed bid. He is allowed to continue bidding after his maximum is reached, but the system won't do it automatically. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 6:41 AM Subject: Re: My Biggest eBay gripe.. >> On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Marvin wrote: >> > John Lawson wrote: >> > > My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is >> > > time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a >> > > fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. >> > > 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an >> > > agreed-upon span. > >> > You are forgetting the sealed bid auctions. IMNSHO, it would be far better >> > for ebay to add the capability to make sealed bids (and yes, I have >> > suggested that to them.) That would eliminate this inching up just to see >> > where the high bid is prior to closing. > >> > Ebays suggestion that you just bid your maximum and wait to see what happens >> > is a good thought. But making that bid early just invites "well, I'll just >> > bid one more dollar to see what happens" and thus driving the price up. Most >> > ebay buyers have educated themselves to know that early bids do not bring >> > the best prices. Hence the popularity of sniping. A combination of sealed >> > and open bidding would most likely work out better than the current mess. > >> Yes, which is really what "sniping" is; a user-created form of sealed >> bidding. > >Come on - that would be if you where just allowed to enter one bid. > >> People like me are the reason that bidding the max early is no good. I am >> a fool with my money, and I don't know when to say "when." I view a dollar >> as something that won't even buy me a cup of coffee most places, so it's >> never a big deal to say, "Hmmm...just one more dollar..." to try to top a >> bid. That's the biggest reason I bid in the final few seconds, to protect >> me from myself. By the time I can reload the page after I bid, the auction >> is over and I either won for that amount or lost... > >In fact, the eBay scheme comes from an overidealistic view of >their users - if all are well defined ethical beeings beting >... ah bidding acording to the idealistic rules, everything >would work fine - just, people are not like that. And by >insisting that their rules are the one and only way, the eBay >guys are just as stubborn as all idiologic kind. > >So my solution would be in offering different auction styles, >giving the seller the freedom of choice what kind of auction >he likes: > >- classic eBay with fixed end date >- seald bid, you are allowed _one_ bid, the amount is secret > until the final time _and_ the named amount is the amount > to go for (!) >- time driven - every last bid extends the closing time by > 60 Minutes (to allow slow line / bussy people to place a > new bid) > >Well, the sealed bid could be modified to a seled bid light, >where the mechanics of the classic eBay scheme is used, which >results into paying only the next step after the second highest >bid (unlikely that a seller will select that if he has a choice >between both). > >Also the time driven may be enhanced with a final date (unknown >to public) to ensure that there is no endless auction. > >Anyway, I don't think we will see such a variety on eBay - Giving >fredom of coice isn't everybodys thing... > >Gruss >H. > > >BTW: this issue even arosed in the new 'eBay' Magazine... No joke, > there is a news stand magazine about eBay (and similar stuff), > licencing their name! > > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

26 years, 6 months

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TRS-80 2000 available in Dallas/Ft. Worth

by bwit＠pobox.com

If you are interested please contact Noma. Thanks, Bob ---------------------------------------- From: Rednlh(a)aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:27:38 EDT Subject: TRS80 2000 To: bwit(a)pobox.com X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 I have a monitor, keyboard and cpu for a TRS80 2000. Used to have some floppies but cannot locate them. Know anyone in the DFW area that might be interested? Noma L Kelton Henderson 1949 Spring Dr Roanoke, Tx 76262 rednlh(a)aol.com 817-431-2172

26 years, 6 months

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Programming the Z-80

by edick＠idcomm.com

The various CP/M resources out there not only have Z-80 code and development resources, but 8080 and 8085 code as well. Be careful you don't try to run some 8085 code. Most of the code is 8080, since that's the common denominator, but many of these sites even have 8085-family support and the housekeeping isn't always perfect. The Rodnay Zaks book is one of a few Z-80 books written just for Z-80 coding. It was a disappointment to me, but it is not half bad. Check your local library. They often have these things sitting on the shelves in considerable (unused) quantity. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 8:59 AM Subject: RE: Programming the Z-80 >>Anyone have pointers to good Z-80 Assembly language programming >>resources on the net? > >Any of the CP/M archives will be filled with more Z-80 and 8080 >assembly source than you'll know what to do with. For starters, >try > > http://oak.oakland.edu/pub/cpm/ > >>What books would you recommend for advanced programming topics? > >If I remember correctly, Rodney Zaks had a book titled "Programming >the Z-80" in his lineup. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 6 months

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