<That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax
<11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef
<in mills out there... and no one wants them!
As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the
current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20
years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet
finding more than one or two would be less than easy.
The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce?
Allison
At 06:07 PM 11/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>It is possible that something happened prior to your tenure... I can think
>of one report which has been much discussed at times on the alt.sys.pdp10
>newsgroup -- the dismantling of the pdp-6 gifted to the computer museum
>by Stanford. Since you are in a position to know... did this in fact
>happen? The reports have the flip chips from the machine being sold
>as trinkets.
Hi Megan,
My understanding of this issue is that the PDP-6 modules sold
at the Museum store were found in boxes in a DEC warehouse. At
the same time, TCM removed a piece of the '6 from display, leading folks to
conflate the two events, inferring that the pieces being sold were from
the one on the floor. The PDP-6 in question is coming back to the History
Center by December 20 (this year) as part of a.donation by Compaq
which is clearing out a little-known warehouse TCM used for deep storage.
I hope you will find this explanation satisfactory and that we can
put this issue behind us. I apologize on behalf of the Museum and History
Center that we perhaps did not communicate well with you and other
enthusiasts about the machine in question. It took some time to reconsruct
an event from a long time ago.
If you have specific concerns about other machines, please let me know. I
am eager
to address cogent criticisms of TCM (the past) or the History Center (the
present & future)
at any time and to work with you all in advancing the state of the art in
computer
preservation--we have many unique problems that are fascinating to think
about and
solve, ones that everyone can contribute to remedying.
[snip: re visiting the west coast]
>>2. Get involved! The Center belongs to the community that supports it
>> and we have dozens of important tasks (both real and virtual) that
>> need to be done and that can draw on the talents of everyone. Drop me
>> a line if you're interested.
>
>Great if you happen to live nearby... but what can one do from the
>east coast to help?
Plenty! We have many "virtual volunteer" opportunities. One of the
greatest needs is
to transcribe computer history lecture for the web. This is of tremendous
use to
scholars because it is a searchable version of the lectures we hold with
some of
the computer industry's most important contributors. Past speakers have
included:
Bob Noyce, Jay Forrester, Grace Hopper, Doug Engelbart, Maurice Wilkes,
Seymour Cray--an amazing list that covers 20 years of computer history!
For a typical transcript, have a look at:
http://www.computerhistory.org/events/sage_05191998/index.page
Also, these transcripts are soon to be supplemented by
RealVideo/RealAudio/MP3 media streams
of the lecture. We have posted Godron Moore's lecture from last month
on-line as an example:
http://www.technetcast.com/tnc_program.html?program_id=54
Might this appeal?
>>3. Visit our website (www.computerhistory.org) and offer suggestions or
>> curate a virtual exhibit! Our site receives well over 2 million hits
>> a month--what a way to get the word out about computer history!
>
>I like that idea... what if your site linked to the private sites of
>numerous collectors (take a look at my own site, for example).
We hope to have a "Links" page within the next 60 days.
>>4. Have your own sites linked to (or even archived) by the Center as a
>> way of bringing attention to your specific area of interest.
>
>You're ahead of me... what do you mean by archived? I would think that
>private sites would be kept up by the owner...
One of the concerns we have at the Center is that while there are superb
computer history sites out there run by individuals, there is no
institutional architecture for ensuring that they can continue past the
sponsor's lifetime or (much more likely) even five years. As you know,
some of these sites are simply superb and irreplaceable resources whose
loss would be gravely felt. If we take the geological timescale into
account (50 years for computers!), there is a real concern that such
wonderful resources might no longer be maintained after some finite amount
of time. I think you'll agree this is a pretty reasonable conclusion.
Consequently, the Center would like to host (perhaps
'park' is a better word? -- since we would have no content oversight
whatsoever) high quality sites in computer history allowing these sites to
make use of the Center's stable infrastructure (including regular backups,
&c.) We haven't worked all the details yet--for example, how to handle
updates and so on. If anyone on the list would like to serve as a test
case, please contact me and we can experiment!
>
>Thanks for taking the time to write to the list...
>
> Megan Gentry
> Former RT-11 Developer
All the best Megan--thanks for caring!
d.
--
Dag Spicer
Curator & Manager of Historical Collections
Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing
The Computer Museum History Center
Building T12-A
NASA Ames Research Center
Mountain View, CA 94035
Tel: +1 650 604 2578
Fax: +1 650 604 2594
E-m: spicer(a)computerhistory.org
WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org
<spicer(a)computerhistory.org> PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD
7D04C178)
S/V 516T
Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the
November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer
Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299.
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a
Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)
>Upon the date 10:47 AM 11/25/99 -0500, Allison J Parent said something
like:
>><That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax
>><11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000
lef
>><in mills out there... and no one wants them!
>>
>>As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the
>>current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20
>>years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet
>>finding more than one or two would be less than easy.
>>
>>The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce?
>>
>>Allison
>
>Allison has hit right on the mark in reply to your suggestion there's 100k
>or so 11/780's still out there, John B. How can you say there are that many
>when we hear of only even a few more recent vintage 11/750's coming
>available for example?? I would wager 750's had been more common in their
>day than 780's were for various reasons. Were there even 100k 11/750's
made???
>
>We've got quite a few sets of eyes and ears sensitive to looking for minis
>on this list, not just micros --including folks with close connections to
>scrappers-- and there are relatively few alerts raised as to 780 or 750
>(and other big iron mini) availabilities vs. your contention many types are
>common.
>
Obviously not, If you have eyes and ears out then your home, storage,
family relative homes , local school, and probably a few hundred thousand
square feet of local storage would be filled *right now* with large
minis... Let me tell you what was available *this* month:
Ketchikan Pulp and Paper
Ketchikan AK, USA
Rack fulls of Accuray electronics containing Honeywell? minis. At least 32
cabinets of electronics (over 10,000 pounds). You must take them all and go
through the liquidator. (This site has probably been chopped up already).
Thorold Pulp and Paper
Thorold, Ontario
4 old mills are being scrapped. 8 Honeywell Minis and PDP-11/05s are there.
Well over 30 cabinets of electronics holding the minis. You *must* take
everything. I know the stuff is still there. and I am taking them for the
Honeywell 316s.. Needless to say I am shredding 28 bays of electronics.
Simpson Paper Company
Eureka CA, USA
Again entire mills with *massive* amounts of minis. These guys use minis for
industrial control... Don't know if they are still there... not going to fly
out and find out.. May have been junked already.
That is about 30,000 pounds of just industrial control minis available JUST
in the pulp and paper industry available right now!. That does not include
all the administrative systems, labelling minis, etc......
As ACCURAY is the standard for paper mill systems you can expect 1 mini/mill
+ 1 backup mini/mill (depending on age it gets worse)...
and you have *one* basement full of minis??? and no calls for minis
lately???
I won't even try and list the number of steel mills upgrading right now (in
Ontario) or the number of them scrapping their minis.... I can pull 10-15
minis/year out of the steel sector in Ontario alone/year.
You can also expect *most* sectors to upgrade their systems every 5 years
and store the stuff until they have time to get rid of it... The *small*
factory I am going into to pull these out have owned well over 30 minis over
the last 25 years... multiply that by the number of steel mills in Ontario
and you get an idea what I am talking about.
WHY AM I GOING INTO THESE PLACES??? Sometimes I get lucky and find an old
1960's mini that was never thrown out, sitting in storage. It happens more
often than you think. I will now be flying out to some mills to look for the
old minis as the value has increased enough to do so. I have throw
out/passed up over the past 7 years:
IBM1130 - E.L. Crossley High School.
refused IBM1401 [boat manufacturer] (won't refuse those anymore)
Vax 11/730s (2)
Honeywell 316s (5) [paper mills] - thre out another one this spring..
running.
PDP-11/40s (3) -- just awful minis.
PDP-8e (at least 2), PDP-8L, PDP-8Ms, as, etc... (won't throw these out
anymore either)
IBM System 32s (school boards used them.. tossed them out)
MAI Basic 4 (Hydro upgraded and got rid of them.. 1 per CITY!)
refused 3 Vax 11/780s this year
PDP-11/70s (too many to list - Pennington Clothes, Hayes Dana, Ontario Asset
Disposal, and others I can't recall right now)
PDP-11/05s (every paper mill with accuray has at least 6 of them)
.........and just too many others to recall... Some of these were at
auctions... not including the ones I got calls about but refused.
>Case in point: at present I have up for adoption a VAX 11/750 which is the
>first one of these in months that I really recall seeing available. A
They commonly get sent to the shredder.. Even PDP-11 enthusiasts don't want
them due to their size and power requirements. Most Metlabs have them and
have been tossing them over the past 3-5 years. Microvaxes are a lot more
*spouse* friendly but if you notice they don't even fetch more than $300
each/system on EBay. Hence, most people will see that and decide not to pick
them up in the first place.
>fellow presently is interested but timing and distance for him to come get
>it is presently an issue and storage co$ts related to it are becoming an
>issue for me. I do *not* want to scrap it and part it out as it was a
>*running* system when I bought it amongst a truckload of other DEC gear.
>I'm a preservationist and really want to see it go to a collector who can
>have a running system. However, I'm off the beaten path for big iron
>collectors to readily come for it and there is a risk nobody can get it
>whole. Therefore there's a risk that a big iron VAX may die as a system.
>
I don't like to see that either.. but there is only so many minis one person
can hold.
>With that, it makes me seem like the "heartless" type who would scrap a
>working machine just to make room around here and I *don't* like that
>feeling one bit. Then I recall with shivers up my spine that if I had not
>discovered the availability of the truckload of DEC gear I bought, the
>original owner who had it would have proceeded to call a trash hauling
>company the next day to take it all away so he could clear out his
>ex-company office ASAP and fly back to his home in California. So at least
>I am able to have offered it plus other surplus DEC gear to everybody here
>plus save out a big batch of stuff which gives me a rather decent DEC
>collection.
>
>Yeah, well I see John B's point in simply scrapping a machine to a
>_limited_ extent. In my mind that doesn't quite forgive unilaterally
>deciding to scrap a collectable machine, or even a more modern interesting
>machine like the Fujitsu, just because "they are common" or "too big", etc.
>Just let us know and and encourage us to pass the word around. There may be
>potential computer homes out there we don't know of. But if not, at least
>the thing has been given a chance to live.
>
I plan to do that. That's why I am posting the info here.
>I guess collectors have to try to keep doing the best they can in spite of
>logistics . . .
>
>Regards, Chris
>-- --
>Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
>Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
> Member of Antique Wireless Association
> URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
>
"Most collectors want:
The first computer they ever touched (that's where I come in)
An old transistor mini
Maybe a PDP-8/11....
Most others aren't worth the cost of shipping.
"
Fine, but if you scrap a machine, try to at least get the documentation and
software to someone that can use it. Many times these items are separatated
>from the computers as they're being disposed of. These items are much smaller
and are also practical to ship, and are vital to restoring the other machines
around the world that haven't been parted out.
-----Original Message-----
From: Merle K. Peirce <at258(a)osfn.org>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE
>
>
>On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, John Foust wrote:
>
>> We should be thankful we collect things that fit in rooms. The farmer
>> across the road collects tractors. I think he's got 20 or so filling
>> his pole shed, packed as tight as sardines.
>
>I know some fellows that collect Mack trucks. they bought a factory to
store
>the unrestored ones, and filled in the empty space with flathead V- Ford
>trucks. Compared to that sort of thing, those big Vaxes don't seem that
>big. After all, to a large degree things are relative. A Universe or a
>Dual is large compared to ZX-81, but small compared to a PDP-9.
Computer equipment *must* be stored without moisture and be maintained at a
certain tempature to retain any kind of value at all. I can't sell rusted
boards... Climate control, dehumidifiers are expensive in large factories..
(if not impossible).
Mack Trucks have a much higher resale value than any 10 Vaxes together I
know...
It's also relative to *what* it is...
john
>
>M. K.
>Peirce Rhode Island
>Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852
>
>"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
>
> - Ovid
>
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a
Vax6000,2Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)
><That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax
><11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef
><in mills out there... and no one wants them!
>
>As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the
>current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20
>years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet
>finding more than one or two would be less than easy.
>
>The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce?
>
That's easy Allison.
I have refused three Vax 11/780s this year so far the went to the
shredder... I don't know how many more in the spring I refused as I was not
taking any more systems from factories/liquidators[ things were slow].
Now that I have a site on the Internet and a presense on this list.. I have
a pile of wish lists, requests, orders, etc...
and I now have 1 person out of a few hundred that is willing to purchase 1
Vax 11/780 *just* over my scrap cost. *All* the others aren't interested.
No one else wants them... and many factories kept them in *stores* when they
were finsihed with them as most don't bother even scrapping the stuff.
I generally figure out current population by the number of requests I get to
pick up a model of a mini. Also, I look at what the collector community is
looking for. Further, I have yet to find a Museum even willing to pay a
*scrap* price for such a unit (let's not even talk about shipping costs).
BTW: This company has put a request to their board for $1.7 Million to
remove all the rest of the minis by spring and replace them with an NT
system. I will no doubt be getting a call to pick up more Vaxes (already saw
2 11/750s - Uggggggh), a Mentor mini (business basic running inventory), and
a pile of other minis I have not seen yet. I do know I will be getting a
pile of ASR-33s... no idea why they held onto them.
If you have items you are seriously looking for please-mail me. I won't be
dragging everything to the shop.
john
>Allison
>
>
> >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10;
> >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor
> utilities and such;
> >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure,
> and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and
> KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.)
>
>These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all
>beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of
>the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves.
I have exactly the same books...
>Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least,
>have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them
>in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would
>require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books
>immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods?
Thanks for asking this... I'm interested in the answer as well...
I also think that they would be destroyed by the attempt to scan. So
the question becomes, Are you attempting to preserve the actual
documentation, or the information contained within...
I'm not sure which direction to go myself... but at least in one or
two cases of the above (and other -10 manuals), I have a copy which
*could* be damaged to scan it in if I were to decide to do it...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)is1.wfi-inc.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers
andTOPS10???
>
>
>On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Chuck McManis wrote:
>
>> At 03:31 PM 11/24/99 -0500, John B wrote:
>> >Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month
my
>> >wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs.
>>
>> Well there is a difference between scrapping it and offering it to
someone
>> on the list who might be willing to take it whole and keep it running. I
>> suspect that was what the "grrrring" was about. Its even ok to say, "This
>> is what I think I can get from 'ebay souvenirs" and if anyone wants to
>> match it they get first dibs."
>>
>> This crowd is partial to keeping things running,
>
>To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let
>alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower
>end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and I
>still have trouble finding places to put all my stuff. And my wife is
>constantly at the brink of "fed-up" with my pitiful little lot and
>day-long roadtrips to pick up more "junk."
>
>Additionally, it's a lot of work to negotiate the pickup/delivery of
>large, heavy, difficult-to-ship things as well. Not everyone has the time
>and energy to do that...even as a labor of love.
>
>I applaud John for the work he puts into the restoration of the systems he
>does keep and for the time and effort he puts into sharing it with others
>(great web page). He obviously has an interest in classic computers that
>goes beyond how much gold or aluminum is contained within.
>
>
Thanks Aaron. I will continue to post lists of boards and minis as I get
them in the hope people here can restore a unit they might have.
>Aaron
>
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodrigo Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a
Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)
>>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> writes:
>
> Richard> This is starting to resemble an argument for putting
> Richard> things on eBay before scrapping them. If they're
> Richard> priceless, then someone will at least attempt to buy them
> Richard> for somewhat less than that implies.
>
> The "priceless" stuff was an illustrating metaphor. I didn't
>say minis are priceless. Usually the "price" of a good is determined
>by the demand/offer situation of the market. Minis are cheap because
>the demand is so low: isolated collectors, when they have space to
>store it. These collective market is so dispersed that does not affect
>the market prices.
Ya right, I look a leave of absence so I can go out and buy minis for 2
cents a pound and resell them for 5 cents a pound???
Quite a few more people want minis than you think, at least the older ones
('60s) that they first touched... and it is not uncommon to get $20,000 or
more for such a unit (depending of course on the number of them left).
The collective market greatly influences the prices of such minis... and
bidding usually occurs.
Yes, a Vax 11/780 will get you a scrap metal price... an IBM1401
(unrestored) will fetch an easy $20,000 (a lot more if you put the word
out). I restore them and ship them running with software and docs, the value
goes up a lot more than that.
>
> But smart scrappers can be smart enought to bargain higher
>prices, when they are certain they are facing collectors. Take for
>instance antiques: they are expensive just because of the high demand,
>it's fashionable to have antiques. And who knows, sometime in the
>future, a VAX board becomes an expensive antique... In fact, some
>computing stuff is almost "priceless", for instance, ENIAC
>boards. Would you scrap an originl ENIAC the way you scrap Fujitsu
>minis? No you would not, unless you were brainless... Any computer as
You can't compare Fujitsu to ENIAC.. The Fujitsu is *not* an original...
There are probably at least 10,000 of those *originals*.
>old as the ENIAC is a priceless asset to any museum! Right?
>
>
Right, and those are the kinds of systems I am aiming for (well, I won't get
an ENIAC.. but UNIVACs can still be found).
> Richard> If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing,
> Richard> shipping, and associated costs, plus the scrap value
> Richard> then, since it's too late to leave 'em inthe scrapyard,
> Richard> they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they?
>
> Yes indeed. It's not trivial to ship huge minis across the
>world. That's one reason why these mailing lists exist: e.g. to
>announce the availability of certain stuff in certain areas. I'd love
>to have a PDP or a VAX, but I know that's virtually impossible unless
>they appear in Lisbon/portugal area...
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>--
>
>*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt>
>*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda
>*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR:
>*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa
>*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL
>*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:45 AM
Subject: Grrrrrr
>>> Grrrrrr.
>>
>>I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of
>>"this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content.
>>I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any
>
>This is an iceberg kind of thing, 90%+ of old computers are going to the
>shredders, or just as bad sitting in some deteriorating environment. 90% of
>the rest is getting dismantled for parts, and only a tiny number are being
>kept "operational".
>
>My attitude is that you can love the forest, and still build a wooden house
>with a fireplace.
>
>The way to save old systems is to hunt them down and buy them. Offer 7
>cents a pound and you might win every scrap bid in the country. Want to
>stop a system from being scrapped, three words are all it takes, "I'll buy
>it".
>
>
You got it. That's why I am listing what I am getting here so people *have*
an opportunity to get something they would probably never find. I just hope
I don't have the same bad experiences local companies/scrappers have had
with hobbyists in the past. Bottom line... if you want a Vax 11/780 you'd
better be willing to shell out the money to have it professionally shipped
or pick it up with a *real* truck.
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Enrico Badella <enrico.badella(a)softstar.it>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:15 AM
Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers
andTOPS10???
>
>Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:
>>
>> To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let
>> alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower
>> end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and
I
>
>In Italy it is even worst. Companies prefer scrapping than giving to
>hobbyists. All you can find are shitty 386 junk
Same thing here.. And do you want to know why????
They are tired of hobbyists wanting to know *everything* about the unit they
are about to buy.. and then if they finally do decide to buy it most show up
in a mini van! Further, companies want a Comp. number so they are not
responsible if I get hurt on the premesis. The last thing in the world
companies want to deal with is a hobbyists... they want someone to come in,
bid on weight, and pick up the load professionally and quickly.
No grief..
>
>e.
>
>========================================================================
>Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella(a)softstar.it
>Soft*Star srl eb(a)vax.cnuce.cnr.it
>InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092
>Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487
>10143 Torino, Italy
>
> Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,
> manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals
>==========================================================================
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodrigo Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a
Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)
>
> You sound like someone who burns paintings just because you
>don't have space to store them, regardless from being priceless
>Picasso's... It's not very hard to understand the following facts:
> - the majority of this list subscribers are collectors, which
>means that they like collecting certain stuff.
Picasso didn't have 40,000 people making 1,000,000 of the same painting.
Also, I am sure you are I could not go out and save *every* "$19.95 CHEAP
OIL PAINTING LIQUIDATOR" work. Yes, I would burn paintings if I was offered
more than I could handle. It's only common sense. You buy the lot for the
valuable material.
> - everyone understands the difference between "storing" and
>"collecting". It's impossible to prevent all minis from the planet
>from being destroyed -- store all obsolete minis. However, collectors
>are available to save a necessarily small percentage from destruction,
>by collecting them. They do this because they *love* it.
It's not possible. I don't think anyone owns a country bid enough to store
them. We are talking about millions of Vaxes, PCs, DGs, etc...
> - the average storage capacity of collectors is usually not
>very high. Not everyone is able to own a VAX, and those who are, can't
>hold more than 1-2 of such machines. Now compare this storage capacity
>with the rate you get minis (you said about 40-50 a year).
> - you can't expect to come here saying "I crush 40 minis a
>year" without people becoming upset. I guess it breaks the heart of
>every collector (at least it breaks mine...).
That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax
11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 left
in mills out there... and no one wants them!
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>--
>
>*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt>
>*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda
>*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR:
>*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa
>*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL
>*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585
>
>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> writes:
Richard> This is starting to resemble an argument for putting
Richard> things on eBay before scrapping them. If they're
Richard> priceless, then someone will at least attempt to buy them
Richard> for somewhat less than that implies.
The "priceless" stuff was an illustrating metaphor. I didn't
say minis are priceless. Usually the "price" of a good is determined
by the demand/offer situation of the market. Minis are cheap because
the demand is so low: isolated collectors, when they have space to
store it. These collective market is so dispersed that does not affect
the market prices.
But smart scrappers can be smart enought to bargain higher
prices, when they are certain they are facing collectors. Take for
instance antiques: they are expensive just because of the high demand,
it's fashionable to have antiques. And who knows, sometime in the
future, a VAX board becomes an expensive antique... In fact, some
computing stuff is almost "priceless", for instance, ENIAC
boards. Would you scrap an originl ENIAC the way you scrap Fujitsu
minis? No you would not, unless you were brainless... Any computer as
old as the ENIAC is a priceless asset to any museum! Right?
Richard> If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing,
Richard> shipping, and associated costs, plus the scrap value
Richard> then, since it's too late to leave 'em inthe scrapyard,
Richard> they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they?
Yes indeed. It's not trivial to ship huge minis across the
world. That's one reason why these mailing lists exist: e.g. to
announce the availability of certain stuff in certain areas. I'd love
to have a PDP or a VAX, but I know that's virtually impossible unless
they appear in Lisbon/portugal area...
Cheers,
--
*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt>
*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda
*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR:
*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa
*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL
*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585
I told a factory I did not want this stuff last year (I forgot about this
PDP-10). It seems they never got around to scrapping it and the scrapper out
of Georgia never picked it up. I got a call just now to see if I want the
load for .. (well $$).
I don't know if the PDP-10 is still in it... They wrapped the cases in
cardboard and moved them to *stores*.
I was told that there are at least 18 6' computer racks,, the only ones that
the guy on the phone could get at said:
Vax 6000
SA600 ??? (what's that?)
RK05 (or 7)
TU81
Some Fujitsu junk.
I know they paid 5 million for the Fujitsu 7 years ago.
Anyone here know what a SA600 is?
As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs).
I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had
heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too
big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it.
The PDP-10 is the only thing worth restoring (if it's still in there). Will
update everyone by the end of the week.
john
You sound like someone who burns paintings just because you
don't have space to store them, regardless from being priceless
Picasso's... It's not very hard to understand the following facts:
- the majority of this list subscribers are collectors, which
means that they like collecting certain stuff.
- everyone understands the difference between "storing" and
"collecting". It's impossible to prevent all minis from the planet
>from being destroyed -- store all obsolete minis. However, collectors
are available to save a necessarily small percentage from destruction,
by collecting them. They do this because they *love* it.
- the average storage capacity of collectors is usually not
very high. Not everyone is able to own a VAX, and those who are, can't
hold more than 1-2 of such machines. Now compare this storage capacity
with the rate you get minis (you said about 40-50 a year).
- you can't expect to come here saying "I crush 40 minis a
year" without people becoming upset. I guess it breaks the heart of
every collector (at least it breaks mine...).
Cheers,
--
*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt>
*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda
*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR:
*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa
*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL
*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and
TOPS10???
>On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, John B wrote:
>>I was told that there are at least 18 6' computer racks,, the only ones
that
>>the guy on the phone could get at said:
>>
>>Vax 6000
>>SA600 ??? (what's that?)
>>RK05 (or 7)
>>TU81
>>Some Fujitsu junk.
>>
>>I know they paid 5 million for the Fujitsu 7 years ago.
>
> ...likely not junk. They make some kickass supers. I wonder if that
system
>is complete.
It is complete. I saw it in the computer room when they had it running (I
bought the system it replaced a few years ago!). I know the computer ran
fast and had *loads* of memory. The problem they had was their own employees
did not like using it. They ran it less than 4 years.
>
>>Anyone here know what a SA600 is?
>
> It's a rack full of RA-series drives.
>
Ahhh, I should have remembered that! , thanks... I guess more weight :-( ..
This Vax 6000 was in the lab so it had quite a few toys hooked up to it
(hopefully some good boards to rip out of it).
>>As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay
souvenirs).
>>
>>I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips
had
>>heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and
too
>>big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it.
>
> Grrrrrr.
>
Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my
wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs.
I hope someone out there can use the boards in their minis....
> -Dave McGuire
>
>The Computer Museum seemed to engender a remarkable amount of ill feeling
>in the East, not alleviated by the flight of the collection from Boston.
>Daq is the beneficiary of that great reservoir of suspicion and distrust.
>He certainly has his work cut out for him, but being forthcoming and
>addressing these concerns could go a long way towards settling them.
I would suggest that the move from boston cannot expect to have
reduced any ill feeling but increased it...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Wow; sounds like quite a nice load :) I think the SA600 is a rather largish
disk rack sort of thing that housed a number of RA8x (?) drives...
-Sean Caron (root(a)diablonet.net)
Dear Friends of Computer History,
I would like to dispel a persistent meme that recurs on this list regarding
The Computer Museum's non-destruction/sale/folding/spindling/mutilating of
computer equipment.
First, let us all take a deep breath and lower the temperature of the
issue. Epithets and insults are not only unnecessary but unkind,
unprofessional, and unworthy of the people within this group (and at the
History Center) that genuinely seek to promote computer history by
advancing solid, verifiable knowledge claims in an atmosphere of
collegiality and mutual interest.
Ok, now the issue (or non-issue, to be more precise). The Computer Museum
and now The Computer Museum History Center is a federally-registered
non-profit corporation whose mission is to preserve and promote the study
of computer history and to serve as an international resource in the
history of computing. To this end, it employs, with a very modest staff of
5 full-time persons, all reasonable and modern methods to actively collect
and disseminate computer history across five separate collections:
hardware, software, media (photos, video, films), ephemera, and
documentation. It collects broadly across time and industry with no
particular institutional, corporate, or personal axes to grind and this
ecumenism has made it a trusted source in computer history by the media,
scholars, authors, intellectual property specialists, and the general public.
The Computer Museum in Boston has recently merged with the Museum of
Science there since there was, essentially, insufficient public support for
its activities--even after its change of focus to a hands-on, interactive
"science center" model. Consequently, the historical collection of the
Museum, one of the finest in the world, was moved to the west coast where,
in the midst of silicon valley, there would be a financial, regional, and
industrial climate that would allow the collection to be seen by the public
in an environment supportive of computer history. At this time, the new
entity changed names to become "The Computer Museum History Center,"
reflecting its institutional focus of being a place where computer history
can live without financial concerns--which, as you all know, is the
ultimate rate-limiting concept behind computer preservation (as well as
time/spousal tolerance!).
As I see it, the thought that the Museum "sells," "trashes," or "scraps"
artifacts is untenable. In nearly four years as curator and manager of
historical collectons at the Center, I have no personal knowledge of any
such activities. On the contraty, in the best tradition of computer
history, artifacts tend to move in the opposite direction--i.e. FROM the
landfill/dumpster/garage TO the Center. It is thus somewhat distressting
to here claims to the contrary by individuals who, again to my knowledge,
have made not the slightest attempt to contact the History Center in order
to discuss the issue or otherwise substantiate their public, and frequently
insulting, claims. For example, why would "a list" of such non-practices
be desired? Similarly, I see little point in addressing the intemperate
remarks/epithets used by the individuals below.
As a general principle, however, the group should understand the way
Museums operate. I believe there have developed two solitudes which I am
eager to bridge: on the one hand, the private collector and, on the other
hand, the more formal institutional home for computer history. Private
collectors bring incredible passion and subject matter knowledge to their
efforts; Museums allow long-term preservation (beyond any one individual's
lifespan) and an insitutional footprint for computer history that allows
widespread propagation and display of computer history. Both communities
need each other! Museums, as part of their legal and institutional
mission, exchange and loan artifacts with other institutions of equivalent
standing (I say "equivalent" mainly to ensure artifacts are protected and
cared for). Museums also "de-accession" items, meaning they remove items
>from inventory. There has not been a single such de-accessioning in my
tenure at the Center and, as any Museum person anywhere can confirm,
de-accessioning is an exceedingly rare and messy procedure--the Museum
Board must be convened and solid curatorial justification given as to why
an item should not form part of a specific collection. It is never taken
lightly and undertaken only with great circumspection.
Assuming something were to be so de-accsessioned, however, the first order
of business would be to ask other Museums if they were interested in adding
the item to their collections; if not, the item would likely be placed at
public auction (in the interest of fairness--to not privilege or otherwise
show favoritism to any one private collector). This procedure is legal,
ethical, and standard operating procedure for Museums around the world. It
may be painful to be "scooped" or otherwise see that the items we are
particularly fond of are becoming increasingly valuable, but that is the
way of the world and a sign that the general public as a whole is beginning
to realize that vaue of what we collect. Even given this framework, I
know of no disposal/auctioning of machines as described below; to assert
that the Museum would throw out an Alto seems sheer folly. Again, it is
disheartening to keep hearing the same baseless claims by individuals in
this group with respect to the Museum's collections policy. These
non-truths reverberate and feed on themselves--I really have to wonder for
whose benefit they are made given that, again, a simple e-mail to me could
have resolved the issue.
Let's move on. How can our two communities work together to preserve the
history of the machines and people who invented and used them?
1. I invite everyone on this list to visit the History Center in Mountain
View, California.
2. Get involved! The Center belongs to the community that supports it and
we have dozens of important tasks (both real and virtual) that need to be
done and that can draw on the talents of everyone. Drop me a line if
you're interested.
3. Visit our website (www.computerhistory.org) and offer suggestions or
curate a virtual exhibit! Our site receives well over 2 million hits a
month--what a way to get the word out about computer history!
4. Have your own sites linked to (or even archived) by the Center as a way
of bringing attention to your specific area of interest.
5. Help the History Center by bringing interesting donation possibilities
to its attention.
6. Become a member! We have probably the largest single collection of
electronic computing artifacts in the world--yet we are swamped and could
really used the help--$$ or time--in our preservation efforts.
7. Spread the word that what we do is worthwhile. If I haven't managed to
convince you, please call me personally and I would be pleased to talk with
you, on any topic.
8. Join our regular computer history mailing list-- a great way to stay
informed about our activities.
I hope I have helped explain how the Center operates and that it is working
very hard to become worthy of the community that supports it. I fear there
has been little communication between list members and the Center,
something I am eager to remedy. When people stop talking to one another,
it's the first sign that trouble lies ahead. Please get in touch and join
us--together we can build something unique in the world that will last long
after we are gone and at which future generations will marvel! We're all
in this together. Won't you join us?
Best wishes,
Dag.
--
Dag Spicer
Curator & Manager of Historical Collections
Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing
The Computer Museum History Center
Building T12-A
NASA Ames Research Center
Mountain View, CA 94035
Tel: +1 650 604 2578
Fax: +1 650 604 2594
E-m: spicer(a)computerhistory.org
WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org
<spicer(a)computerhistory.org> PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD
7D04C178)
S/V 516T
Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the
November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer
Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299.
--- allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
> > That sounds like a reasonable explaination, but how, then, does the DKC8AA
> > "reach into" the KK8A to implement _its_ frontpanel? I would have thought
> > that the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS.
>
> Via a cable to the KK8A. From the FP perspective Omnibus is but not
> totally.
Where does the cable plug into the KK8A? Did I miss a 16-pin DIP header
somewhere? There are no Berg connectors.
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Firman Kistler, Big Shot Productions
[mailto:firmankistler@mailgate.bigshot.com] On Behalf Of Firman Kistler,
Big Shot Productions
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 3:15 PM
To: Aunt Mick; Joel Fedorko; Lauren DiNatle; Mike Davis (Tank); Tim
Hughes; Tim Hunt
Subject:
<<
You might be in a country church if.......
1. The doors are never locked.
2. The Call to Worship is "Y'all come on in!"
3. People grumble about Noah letting coyotes on the Ark.
4. The Preacher says, "I'd like to ask Bubba to help take up the
offering"
and five guys stand up.
5. The restrooms are outside.
6. Opening day of deer hunting season is recognized as an official
church
holiday.
7. A member requests to be buried in his four-wheel drive truck
because,
"I
ain't ever been in a hole it couldn't get me out of".
8. In the annual stewardship drive there is at least one pledge of "two
calves".
9. Never in its entire 100-year history has one of its pastors had to
buy
any meat or vegetables.
10. When it rains, everybody's smiling.
11. Prayers regarding the weather are a standard part of every worship
service.
12. A singing group is known as the "OK Chorale".
13. The church directory doesn't have last names.
14. The pastor wears boots.
15. Four generations of one family sit together in worship every
Sunday.
16. The only time people lock their cars in the parking lot is during
the
summer and then only so their neighbors can't leave them a bag of
squash.
17. There is no such thing as a "secret" sin.
18. Baptism is referred to as "branding".
19. There is a special fund-raiser for a new septic tank.
20. Finding and returning lost sheep is not just a parable.
21. You miss worship one Sunday morning and by 2 O'clock that afternoon
you
have had a dozen calls inquiring about your health.
22. High notes on the organ sets dogs in the parking lot to howling.
23. When Jesus fed the 5,000, people wonder whether the two fish were
bass
or catfish.
24. People think "Rapture" is what happens when you lift something too
heavy.
25. The cemetery is in such barren ground that people are buried with a
sack of fertilizer to help them rise on Judgment Day.
26. It's not heaven, but you can see heaven from there.
27. The final words of the benediction are, "Y'all come on back now, ya
hear".
Firman Kistler
>> Specifically there are three DEC systems that TCM/Boston had, PDP-1,
>> PDP-6 and a PDP-7. Where are they and what is their current status?
I essentially asked the same question in private mail... I had only
heard about the pdp-6 (from Stanford, if I remember correctly... and
working when gifted). I hadn't heard about the others, but am
suitably interested in specific answers...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
I just posted this to alt.sys.pdp10, but I think it's an appropriate
inquiry for this list, too:
So, I have a few old manuals:
>> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10;
>> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor
utilities and such;
>> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure,
and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and
KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.)
These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all
beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of
the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves.
Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least,
have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them
in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would
require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books
immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods?
--Pat.
Upon the date 10:59 AM 11/24/99 -0500, Pat Barron said something like:
>I just posted this to alt.sys.pdp10, but I think it's an appropriate
>inquiry for this list, too:
>
>So, I have a few old manuals:
>
> >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10;
> >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor
> utilities and such;
> >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure,
> and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and
> KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.)
>
>These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all
>beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of
>the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves.
>
>Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least,
>have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them
>in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would
>require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books
>immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods?
Tough call. They are on their way to self-destruction because of that
doggone cheap acid paper. This indicates they will be eventually unusable
without disintegrating in your hands. Libraries and book collectors use
some sort of process which neutralizes the acid and virtually reduces
degradation. I haven't investigated this myself but I would suspect it
could be somewhat expensive relative to the actual value of the document.
Maybe when the document is relatively far along with acid destruction as
you say yours are, neutralization may be fruitless. Anybody have any
comments on that neutralizing process?
I think to simply preserve the information I would have to carefully
dismantle the manual page by page and copy them using a high quality
scanner or Xerox machine. The loss of the *information* will at least be
prevented. With that process I would be able to use the original covers and
make a replica manual (plus a coverless second 'working' manual I could use
at my programming terminal). I've got a couple of the DEC Handbooks which
are breaking down like this -including the 1976 PDP-11/10 Handbook which I
think is the first in that series. These Handbooks would be quite tricky to
preserve in either manner as they're thick and page size is small.
Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
--
Dag Spicer
Curator & Manager of Historical Collections
Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing
The Computer Museum History Center
Building T12-A
NASA Ames Research Center
Mountain View, CA 94035
Offices: Building T12-A
Exhibit Area: Building 126
Tel: +1 650 604 2578
Fax: +1 650 604 2594
E-m: spicer(a)computerhistory.org
WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org
<spicer(a)tcm.org> PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178)
S/V T12
Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the
November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer
Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299.
Hi All,
I sent this message to the CC list auction notification address but it
never appeared in my mailbaox and I havent gotten anything from that
serrvice for a long time so I guess it's not working any more.
I've decided to clear out some of my excess books and stuff so I've put a
BUNCH of manuals on E-bay. I'm starting with IBM Technical Reference
manuals and a big load of DEC manuals. Some of them are pretty unusual
like the two volume Tech Ref for the IBM Converible PC. I'm also listing
many old Intel books. I have a HUGE pile of HP and DEC manuals that I will
be listing. Many of them date back to the early '70s. I'll be adding some
DEC and HP hardware when I have time. I'll keep adding stuff so keep
checking back. Here's the URL for the first book,
"http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=206460875". You can
click on View Seller's Other Auctions to get a list of everything.
Joe
This unit is not listed anywhere on the web and have not found it in the
list of Digital Computers (though I can't find the page I usually look at).
In going through my PDP-8 stuff I found a book called "RCL".
This *mini* was built in 1958.
I uses delay line memory, has a number of mini-computer functions (many tube
flip flops) and it's programmed with wires (i think). It has a bulb front
panel with some program control switches.
Interfaced to it was a printer and a CRT (maybe more, I am just getting
through the memory control schematics).
Its memory control system contains:
Set address, decimal decoder, subtract 1, read , add, write (all
these three have many other function control flip flops), address overflow,
decode, print, carry, add+1, end storage...
Address system is 8 bit. (256 bits of address space)
OOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. (just flipped the page) it *does* have a core memory array.
(5 stages X 256 bit)
OOOOOOOOOOOOoo (just flipped the page again)... It has a 16 bit A/D
converter (tubes)
(sorry but OOOOOOOOOO - just flipped the,,,,,....) it has a data register ..
Ahhh, this is a 16 bit mini, with core (just found more core memory)
Getting an instruction set here - (so far):
Add +1
Add
Add -1 (subtract)
Compliment
Add with carry
reset (jump?)
stop
next page - A/D unit (yikes!) many tubes.....
CRT display (uses delay line memory ... I think.. if not , no idea yet)
Power supply is nasty
printer control modules - yuck!
Okay, indicator panel (found it) has: 16 bit data bus, 8 bit address bus
(light bulbs)
Programming - weird, user has access to core memory, has "START, RESET
switches), it has a *really weird* tube for "real time".. looks to be a
cesium tube or delay tube... many sensors for "real time"
more programming instructions:
print
clear to zero
display
I thought at first this unit was a counter but I see a whole programming
area with different op codes, two types of storage and a printer with CRT.
This should qualify as a *kind* of mini... It was meant to work with A/D and
D/A with some coded instructions in core memory/wires.
Anyone hear of such a unit?
Part of it is called "multichannel analyzer" but that is only the a/d
subsystem. I only have the schematics so I have to figure stuff out from
there.
john
--- allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
> No I don't. First off make sure the "tty" is configured correctly. Real
> TTYs are wired with keyboard bit 7 high and all 8 reader bits active.
> This is hard to duplicate with terminal programs.
For now, I'm using a VT220 as an output-only device. I haven't gotten as
far as attempting input.
> > I'd still love to hear why a KK8A isn't happy with the -8/e frontpanel...
>
> They are not compatable at the control level not the bus level. The KK8a
> was not designed with a "peripheral" reaching into it's registers and data
> paths. I'd bet if the kk8a runs in the 8e box the FP can display but only
> limited things.
That sounds like a reasonable explaination, but how, then, does the DKC8AA
"reach into" the KK8A to implement _its_ frontpanel? I would have thought
that the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS is the OMNIBUS.
Thanks,
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
Can anyone tell me where I can find Floppy Drive specifications on the
internet? Right now I am looking for specs on a Mitsubishi MF504B-318U 5
1/4" drive. I forget if this drive is DD or HD. I have some other drives
I need to get the specs on too. Thanks in advance...
--Alan
<> I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks
<> fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use
<
<It probably wouldn't cost anything like that much... Most older 'scopes
<are easy and cheap to repair.
I'd agree. generally most scopes are not to bad to fix but some are
definately more avoidable like the really old Valved units.
<> *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic
<> troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very
<
<_Nonsense_. I've done a heck of a lot of troubleshooting on quite modern
<stuff using that 15MHz 'scope I mentioned earlier. It all depends on how
<you use your instrument and if you know how to interpret the results.
I agree. At the time the PDP-8 was common the 465 was the hotshot on the
block and few had one. I remember seeing 316s with the dual trace plug
in used for that!
<Maybe not Tektronix, but there are still 20 and 30 MHz 'scopes in the
<catalogues. And most of them are horrible -- they don't trigger properly,
the B&K, Hitachi and Leader are three I know well and they trigger OK,
say about as well as most of the HPs. ;) Seriously, they arent Tek,
they don't have that nice trigger but many others that are faster don't.
Most of the better 20mhz scopes really do see 20 and then some and a few
of the off brand faster ones don't. Tek is expensive, DSOs/DPOs are not
always interchangable either. All of this is mostly unimportant to
troubleshooting a errent core stack.
<etc. You'd be _much_ better off spending the money to fix up an old
<Tektronix than buying one of those. Of course if you can afford a new Tek
<with all the bells and whistles, well that's great!.
If you can fix one, some of them can be had for a song. a few are really
collectable on their own merits. I'd really like to have a 316!
<At least one company seems to define an 'x MHz scope' as : If you turn
<the Y gain right up and apply the maximum allowed signal then you'll see
<_something_ at 'x MHz'. I am not joking...
Some are pretty poor. The NLS MS15 is in that pool. However being battery
operated and a 75$ investment back in 76 made it a fair little scope even
now.
OH, that core... there is a switch on the g111 module and if misset the
core will not work. It sets the slice time for the read amps. If wrong
the code has stuck bits or worse flakey ones.
The other thing that can go off is the current drivers, if the current
level is off... no write, no read.
Allison
Going too cheap on a 'scope might be regretted. Buying too recent a low-end
instrument might be a disappointment as well. A 20-year-old 465 in really
decent functional condition and with al its parts and manuals can be had
nearly any day from a retailer of such hardware for $400, including a pair
of 100 MHz probes with most of their accessories, and often for less than
that. It (including the somewhat less well-suited 'B' version) will do
ANYTHING you need on most classic hardware. Knowing that, by itself, is
worth quite a bit, because you KNOW when you power it up, it will do what
you need. What might be even more interesting is the more or less
equivalent TEK 466, which is a storage scope. That will let you do even
more than the 465 and, when you can find one, won't cost much more.
A current-generation low-end analog 'scope will not begin to do what a
20-25-year-old one will do, because 25 years ago, the 20 MHz scope was the
typical workhorse. If you look at today's, it's a toy.
If you find a used TEK 935 (?) which was considered a "student" instrument
for use in schools, etc, it's all solid-state, which means you don't have to
use up $5 in power to warm it up, and spend $5 more for a six-pack to drink
while you wait, and, though it hasn't got the high bandwidth, it has the
delayed timebase, and two channels triggerable either externally or
internally, etc. You shouldn't have to pay even $200 for one of these,
complete with the two probes, which, by the way, are probably over half the
cost.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes
>> I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks
to
>> fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use
>
>It probably wouldn't cost anything like that much... Most older 'scopes
>are easy and cheap to repair.
>
>> *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic
>> troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very
>
>_Nonsense_. I've done a heck of a lot of troubleshooting on quite modern
>stuff using that 15MHz 'scope I mentioned earlier. It all depends on how
>you use your instrument and if you know how to interpret the results.
>
>> good at looking at the color burst of a video signal in any detail.
Again, I
>> find most folks design/troubleshoot in a variety of areas and that's why
we
>> need scopes with all the toys. I don't see Tek making any more 20Mhz
boxes.
>
>Maybe not Tektronix, but there are still 20 and 30 MHz 'scopes in the
>catalogues. And most of them are horrible -- they don't trigger properly,
>etc. You'd be _much_ better off spending the money to fix up an old
>Tektronix than buying one of those. Of course if you can afford a new Tek
>with all the bells and whistles, well that's great!.
>
>The other thing is that a Tektronix '20 MHz' scope will, in general
>display something useful for signals of a considerably higher frequency
>(I've 'pushed' a 50MHz 547 (_really old_) to at least 75 MHz). Yes, the
>amplitude calibration is off. All signals look like a sine wave. But you
>can still make measurements if you have to.
>
>At least one company seems to define an 'x MHz scope' as : If you turn
>the Y gain right up and apply the maximum allowed signal then you'll see
>_something_ at 'x MHz'. I am not joking...
>
>-tony
>
<> I know the 20mhz B&K would be more than enough to track 8F core problems
<
<Sure... But if you're buying a 'scope, it makes sense to get one that
<will do all that you might need. So while you don't need a 50MHz 'scope
<or whatever to sort out 8/f core memory, you might find it worth getting
<one for other work.
Hence the B&K 20mhz. I do a lot of slow, audio and assorted control stuff
that doesn't require a fast scope. My MS15 (bought used 22years ago) is
so I have battery operation for portable use.
<You don't _need_ expensive test equipment. I've done a lot of fault
<tracing using a cheap analogue multimeter and a Radio Shack logic probe.
<And with those 2 instruments I managed to extract enough clues to the
<fault to replace the fault component first time (most of the time).
;) so happens...
<However, I am also sure that there are people here who could use some
<more clues as to the fault, who can't interpret every last piece of
<information that they can get from simple instruments. And those people
<generally make use of rather more instruments, which perhaps aren't
<strictly necessary...
There in lies the problem. Sometimes the test setup can cause error.
Good tools are a must, but good does not always mean the "best" only that
is be fully working and calibrated combined with the knowledge to use it.
The key is what ever scope is used to know and understand it well,
and I mean very well. Generally this applies to many instruments.
I happen to do better than average because back when I couldn't afford
I had to make do, that meant getting the most and then some. That and
over 30 years of experience is particurally handy at times.
Oh, the 465 I had, I sold it real cheap to someone I thought could really
use a good scope. He dropped it. ;(
Allison
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes
>> I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks
to
>> fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use
>
>It probably wouldn't cost anything like that much... Most older 'scopes
>are easy and cheap to repair.
>
We are talking about someone here who is *unable* to fix his own scope. I am
sure you or I could fix it for under $5 (providing the CRT and flyback are
good)... but in the real world most people *can't* fix their own test
equipment. In fact, most general repair shops aren't able to do a fair
job....
>> *exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic
>> troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very
>
>_Nonsense_. I've done a heck of a lot of troubleshooting on quite modern
>stuff using that 15MHz 'scope I mentioned earlier. It all depends on how
>you use your instrument and if you know how to interpret the results.
Tony, I can't see distortion in an oscillator at 61.25Mhz with a 20Mhz
scope.... And I have pioneered *alot* of code cracking on video signals and
that would not be possible with any old equipment.
You *can* do alot of troubleshooting with a 15Mhz scope... but, for
instance, I can't see distortion/FSK data on a122.7Mhz oscillator/FM
transmitter (that band should mean something to you ;-) ) with a 15Mhz
scope.
Each to his own... You obviously love working with old test equipment and
support old hardware. I don't see a lot of people out there like yourself
anymore.. [although I have met a few non-gui UNIX administrators that hate
my guts after tossing their servers for NT] .. I like working on the old
stuff; sometimes even with the old stuff... but I don't bring that into new
world work... That's just me.
>
>> good at looking at the color burst of a video signal in any detail.
Again, I
>> find most folks design/troubleshoot in a variety of areas and that's why
we
>> need scopes with all the toys. I don't see Tek making any more 20Mhz
boxes.
>
>Maybe not Tektronix, but there are still 20 and 30 MHz 'scopes in the
>catalogues. And most of them are horrible -- they don't trigger properly,
>etc. You'd be _much_ better off spending the money to fix up an old
>Tektronix than buying one of those. Of course if you can afford a new Tek
>with all the bells and whistles, well that's great!.
>
I agree, but old scopes are expensive to maintain for someone who is not
able to repair it himself.
>The other thing is that a Tektronix '20 MHz' scope will, in general
>display something useful for signals of a considerably higher frequency
>(I've 'pushed' a 50MHz 547 (_really old_) to at least 75 MHz). Yes, the
>amplitude calibration is off. All signals look like a sine wave. But you
>can still make measurements if you have to.
MY POINT! I was refering to RF work above... you don't just buy a scope for
old mini digital work.. If you buy an old scope/20Mhz you automatically
rule out most high frequency analog work and communications. Digital signals
look like sine waves.. ever tried to diagnose a problem with an RF circuit
with a minimum bandwidth scope??? The waveform looks like pure garbage..
Hence, the need for a *real* scope.
>
>At least one company seems to define an 'x MHz scope' as : If you turn
>the Y gain right up and apply the maximum allowed signal then you'll see
>_something_ at 'x MHz'. I am not joking...
>
Agreed , I have done it with my 2465 (yes, I have had to look at RF higher
than 300Mhz)... In fact, I use to use a dual trace Gould (100Mhz) on 200Mhz
work..... with minor grief. All depends on the application.
Where are you located in the UK?
>-tony
>
Hey all, I hate to solicit bids, but thought you folks might be interested in
the stuff I have up for auction on ebay. Here is my seller list: <A
HREF="http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItem
s&userid=maddog1331&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25">http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw
-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=maddog1331&include=0
&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25</A>
I have a bunch of stuff, and have to clear some of it out so I can have some
room for a couple of nice systems...the apartment is like full!
Thanks for looking, and I have other stuff I will be putting on there soon
:-) A bunch of Timex Sinclair stuff, among others.
Mark
I have a BA23 that was "hidden" inside a Sigma Design expando cabinet.
(looks kinda like a BA123 except that it has a door on the front,
incompatible disk mounting slides and a weird "slave" power supply. I
believe the BA23 to be in good working order, I'll pull it out and test it
(I know the slave PSU is toast)
It is in Sunnyvale CA (94087), I'm willing to part with it for 1.5x
shipping however shipping in this case is "take it down to the packing
store and have them pack and ship it" since I haven't a box or sufficient
packing material to cover it. Because it is in the Sigma cabinet it doesn't
have the standard "DEC shelf" for mounting in a rack. It does have a uVAX
II badge on it and no drives. Email me if you want it, first come first
served...
--Chuck
--- "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> wrote:
> Good luck, I won't tell you how long it's taken me to get even a spare BA23
> and BA123 as backups.
It took me a long time to find a BA123, too. Cost me a bit of money at the
time as well. I've never seen them drop from the skies (but I have picked
up $50 MicroVAX I's in the past).
> Something to consider with the BA123's is that
> they're more than just a computer, they're also a small table..
> ...Mine has a LA75 and a VT420 sitting on top of it,
Beware of loading the top too heavily. My BA123 has a dent under one caster
because someone probably sat on the corner or did something else unnice to
it. I pounded it out as best I can, but that caster is still a couple
millimeters higher than the other three.
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
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> According to my numbers: AL 210 Cu 380 Ag 408 - just I have no expliciet
> temperature named (and I'm somewhat confused, since I belived that lambda
> is not depending on any temperature, but rather a coefficient(?) to
determinate
> the conductance (?) - otherwise you'd have to integrate lambda over the
> temperaturerange within the object (remember, its w/mK, where K is dT))
For really accurate studies you do indeed have to do just that. Thermal
conductivity varies with temperature in much the same way as electrical
conductivity - and is (AFAIK) similarly infinite in superconductors, which no
doubt helps in cooling them...
>> Anyway, it seems to me that the way to go is:
>> 1. Peltier chip between CPU and heatsink. Heatsink is a large block of
copper.
>
> Adds more and more heat - an infinite loop, where you have to add a bigger
> part to the 'interchange' on the hot side, hust for transporting the
Yes, but not much more. I have never seen a figure for efficiency of peltier
chips, but I have always assumed around 200%, i.e. removes about twice as much
heat as it generates. (YMMV - Efficiency varies with temperature difference)
> Peltiers own heat. I found it better to optimise the transport within the
> interchange element (as with using Cu or Ag, and mor efficient flow
> structures) than just adding a Peltier. It's not about geting the
Possibly true in a lot of applications ...
> target temperature as low as possible, but rather transporting away
> ad much (thermal) power as possible - that will inherently keep the
> target from overheating.
I have not much experience with cooling CPUs, but with other semiconductors
(mainly power transistors) I have found that the biggest thermal resistance in
the circuit is almost invariably semiconductor to package exterior. The amount
of heat you can remove depends therefore mainly on maximum allowable temperature
of semiconductor and temperature of package surface. Getting the package
surface down another few degrees will in a lot of cases more than make up for
the extra heat the peltier chip produces. It may even do so without extra
cooling on the water (etc.) side - a few degrees lower on the IC balanced by a
few degrees higher on the water may transport all the extra heet you need.
Especially if your cooling is decent (low thermal resistance) between water and
ambient.
> Also, if we just remove the heat to keep the device (and all parts)
> not below environment temperature we avoide all probems with
> condensation (word?). We don't have to isolate all cooled parts
> wathertight. Saving again a lot of recurces.
Condensation could be a problem, although it didn't seem to be in project
EUNUCH. Some sort of drying arrangement for the ventilation should be
sufficient though - this too can be done with cooling...
>> 2. Use a refrigerant cycle similar to a domestic freezer, but connect the
>> refrigerant circuit directly to holes bored in the heatsink block. No
>> intervening water circuit.
>
>> 3. Of course, keep the refrigerant radiator well away from the system, and
>> supply it with plenty of fans...
>
> Or just use water and a real _big_ radiator to expell the heat.
> After all, it's again about radiation a specific amount of
> thermal power - and this can be done by either a high delta-T
> or just a biger surface (phi = lamda * S * delta-T / delta).
Still keep the radiator well away from the system and supply it with plenty of
fans!
See above for my reasons for keeping the temperature down...
> Conclusion: I belive that a 'soft' aproach can give the same
> result in most situation without spending endless resources
> to push a single idea solution (brute force).
Perhaps. But your solution is limited by the ambient temperature, the maximum
chip temperature and the thermal resistance within the IC. For any better heat
transfer than that, you _have_ to cool below ambient. I was simply exploring
ways of doing this.
Philip.
This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read
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dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or
publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete
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This may be of general interest, or if not, at least it will go into the
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some Alto file extensions
Alto file names are case-independent
.run executable file
.cm command file (executive instructions, like CP/M batch files)
.boot bootable file
.d BCPL definition file (like C .h files)
.bcpl BCPL source file
.syms BCPL symbol file
.asm Alto assembly language source file
.mu Alto microcode source file
.br BCPL binary file
.decl BCPL declarations file (same as .d)
.al Alto font file
.bravo Bravo text file
.press Press document file
.mesa Mesa source file
.bcd Mesa binary file
.image Mesa executable file
.draw Draw document file
.log Log files
.st Smalltalk source file
Since XDE is a descendent of the Alto Mesa environment, many of the
extensions (.cm .mesa .bcd) carried forward onto D machines.
>So, I have a few old manuals:
>
> >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10;
> >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor
> utilities and such;
> >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure,
> and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and
> KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.)
>
>These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all
>beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of
>the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves.
>
>Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least,
>have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them
>in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would
>require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books
>immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods?
Yeah, well, that's the rub. Doug Jones wrote up his efforts to
preserve of PDP-8 paperbacks, and he begins:
Once you have concluded that a paperback is beond repair,
the first step in preserving its contents
is to complete its destruction. Slice off the glued
spine of the paperback so that the pages come
apart as separate sheets. You can cut the sheets
from the spine with an X-acto knife, or you can
find a shop with a paper shear that will cut the spine loose.
Doug then goes into a very detailed step-by-step description of
producing an archival-quality duplicate of the original information.
For further details on Doug's efforts, see
http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Just found the clock module: It ran at 5 Khz.
john
-----Original Message-----
From: John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 12:35 PM
Subject: Just found schematics to a Tube Mini! 1958! WOW!
>This unit is not listed anywhere on the web and have not found it in the
>list of Digital Computers (though I can't find the page I usually look at).
>
>In going through my PDP-8 stuff I found a book called "RCL".
>
>This *mini* was built in 1958.
>
>I uses delay line memory, has a number of mini-computer functions (many
tube
>flip flops) and it's programmed with wires (i think). It has a bulb front
>panel with some program control switches.
>
>Interfaced to it was a printer and a CRT (maybe more, I am just getting
>through the memory control schematics).
>
>Its memory control system contains:
>
>Set address, decimal decoder, subtract 1, read , add, write (all
>these three have many other function control flip flops), address overflow,
>decode, print, carry, add+1, end storage...
>
>
>Address system is 8 bit. (256 bits of address space)
>
>OOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. (just flipped the page) it *does* have a core memory
array.
>(5 stages X 256 bit)
>
>OOOOOOOOOOOOoo (just flipped the page again)... It has a 16 bit A/D
>converter (tubes)
>
>(sorry but OOOOOOOOOO - just flipped the,,,,,....) it has a data register
..
>Ahhh, this is a 16 bit mini, with core (just found more core memory)
>
>Getting an instruction set here - (so far):
>
>Add +1
>Add
>Add -1 (subtract)
>Compliment
>Add with carry
>reset (jump?)
>stop
>
>
>next page - A/D unit (yikes!) many tubes.....
>
>CRT display (uses delay line memory ... I think.. if not , no idea yet)
>
>Power supply is nasty
>
>printer control modules - yuck!
>
>Okay, indicator panel (found it) has: 16 bit data bus, 8 bit address bus
>(light bulbs)
>
>Programming - weird, user has access to core memory, has "START, RESET
>switches), it has a *really weird* tube for "real time".. looks to be a
>cesium tube or delay tube... many sensors for "real time"
>
>more programming instructions:
>
>print
>clear to zero
>display
>
>
>I thought at first this unit was a counter but I see a whole programming
>area with different op codes, two types of storage and a printer with CRT.
>This should qualify as a *kind* of mini... It was meant to work with A/D
and
>D/A with some coded instructions in core memory/wires.
>
>Anyone hear of such a unit?
>
>Part of it is called "multichannel analyzer" but that is only the a/d
>subsystem. I only have the schematics so I have to figure stuff out from
>there.
>
>john
>
>
>
>
--- allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
> > the PDP-8/a, I can't generate discreet operations...
>
> Forget TTY, Forget OS/8, Forget the full spread of boards just the base CPU
> and memory that's all.
Then, so far, so good. As I said, it runs basic ops. The inchworm program
is about as far as I can get without custom-crafting diag routines until I
get a TTY online to read MAINDEC tapes. At the moment, all I have in the
-8/e is the CPU, an MS8-C and an M8650. I toggled in an ASCII printing
routine from the 1973 -8/e handbook (page 4-4, IIRC) and I didn't see anything
appear on the terminal nor the RS-232 traffic light. If you happen to have
a handy TTY test loop up your sleeve, then I'd love to see it. It makes it
much harder to debug hardware when you have to debug your own diagnostic
software at the same time.
I'd still love to hear why a KK8A isn't happy with the -8/e frontpanel. I
would have thought that they were compatible. The OMNIBUS isn't all that
complex. There's not a lot of room for variations.
> Make that work then add pieces. when they are good
> you can transfer them to the 8a.
Here's the problem... I can only test so much of the -8/e with only the
front panel and the docs I have (I don't have a sheaf of toggle-in diags
to try or I would). Once I put the KK8E in the -8/a box, _all_ I can do
is hit the boot switch. It doesn't boot. The KK8A sort-of boots.
There's this enormous testing gap between what I can do on the -8/e with no
ability to load in diag tapes and what I can do on the -8/a with only the OS
to boot. If I at least had an -8/a front panel, I could do some testing in
that frame as well.
> The 8E front pannel is fairly simple and a logic probe will be adaquate
> to shoot it if the switches and lights aren't enough.
Beyond a possible dirty EXAM switch, I have no reason to suspect anything is
wrong with the 8/e front panel.
A secondary question: when WPS throws up the "ABC" at the start of the boot
sequence, what happens between the letters? I have one disk that only shows
the "A" and the CPU locks up. What might that suggest?
Thanks,
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
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Hi, all.. I've recently upgraded my microVAX II to a III and I have enough
spare qbus cards around to built another microVAX II, but unfortunently
no spare chassi.. I've scoured the general area and places like eBay and
i've not been able to track down anything, so I was wondering if anybody
had any spare BA* chassi that they would be interested in selling...
Looking mostly for BA23 chassi since they're a bit more mangable than
something like a BA123... I'd be willing to buy and/or pay shipping and
handling on any that anybody might not need.
Or, if somebody had a spare BA123 or something and lived in the south-
western to south-central Michigan area and rather excessive shipping
costs would not be an issue, i'd be willing to pick them up as well.
Thanks a bunch,
-Sean Caron (root(a)diablonet.net)
At 07:56 AM 11/24/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>http://community.borland.com/museum/
>I have to log in now, I don't remember that, but it's free anyway.
Skip the login crud:
http://community.borland.com/museum/borland/software/
>>>> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do
>>>> not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS.
http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/
Will any of these work for you?
C 203 <DIR>
C 600 <DIR>
C 700 <DIR>
CRTL 700 <DIR> (rtl for c7)
QC 250 <DIR>
QC 200 <DIR>
Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com
System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting
lance(a)costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees
--- John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> How is your 8/e restoration going?
>
> john
cf other message, but I know several things _are_ working: the bulbs, the PSU,
both MS8-C cards, at least 90% of the KK8E board set. At the moment, I can't
verify proper serial operation so I can't load diagnostic tapes. I have two
boards - M865 and M8650. I have a homemade (tested) RS-232 cable for the
M8650 and a 20mA cable missing the black Berg housing (Mate-n-Lok on one end,
crimped on gold pin contacts on the other - no 40-pin connector body). The
M865 has a 12" cable and a Mate-n-Lok 20mA connector on it, but I can't find
my box of TTY cables (to hook up my VT220 to it). I still have this pr/s01
20mA portable papertape reader, but I still know nothing about it, especially
baud rate. I haven't yet hauled a 'scope out to the place the -8's are at.
That's one of the next steps.
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
http://community.borland.com/museum/
I have to log in now, I don't remember that, but it's free anyway.
I was going to suggest this, but I thought I might have been seriously wrong
about the Visual C thing....
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Withers <bwit(a)pobox.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: MSVC
>Version 6 was interesting in that it was both DOS and 16 bit OS/2. Version
>7 was the first version of C++ and was for DOS/Win16 only. I think version
>8 was the first version to carry the "Visual C++" label.
>
>To the original poster, if Quick C is what you are looking for email me, I
>think I have a couple around here. If Borland Turbo C would do as well you
>can download versions 1 through (I think) 2.5 from the web. I've misplaced
>the URL but perhaps some kind soul here will provide it.
>
>Regards,
>Bob
>
>At 07:42 PM 11/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>You're probably thinking of Microsoft Quick C for DOS.
>>It had a "low-resolution" (character) graphics interface
>>and was available for DOS as well as Windows 3.1.
>>If you search the Internet for surplus software sites,
>>you might find a copy around; I seem to remember seeing
>>some sites in the past that had older stuff like this,
>>but I don't recall exactly where.
>>
>>If you are comfortable with a command-line interface,
>>Microsoft C Version 6.0 was probably best version of
>>Microsoft C before Visual C++ (Version 8) came out.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>Bill Farmer wrote:
>>>
>>> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do
>>> not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS.
>>
>>
>
>
My MicroVax 1 microVMS 4.1 wont allow me past username password prompt.
My VMS system managers manaul talks about a way yo "Conversational Boot" a
Vax system to enter "SET UAFALTERNATE 1". It shows this beig done from a
SYSBOOT> prompt.
I dont know how to get a SYSBOOT Prompt or Conversational Boot on my
MicroVax I. VMS System managers Manual states that this info is in
"Hardware System installation & operators Guide for (my) specific system. I
don't have this guide.
Is there A FAQ somewhere on breaking in past your username/password prompt
>from microVax console?
Ethan Dicks gave me default SYSTEM MANAGER FIELD SERVICE and SYSTEST UETP
username password pairs, which don't help.
This should be the common case of system manager forgetting Password.
ANY HELP?
Is there a crypyic command structure to intercept sysboot process and make
it "conversational"?
Sincerely Larry Truthan
> the PDP-8/a, I can't generate discreet operations to run the CPU through its
> paces and I can't toggle in simple programs. I have the prints for the
> DKC8AA. Is it feasible to build my own front panel? I don't even have one
> to copy; I'd be guessing the whole way. If I could use the KK8A in the -8/e
> box, I would use _its_ front panel, but that doesn't seem to work either.
Fix the 8E box first. don't worry which board is not working but start
with that box and a minimal configuration.
Forget TTY, Forget OS8, Forget teh full spread of boards just the base CPU
and memory thats all. Make that work then add peices. when they are good
you can transfer them to the 8a. The 8E front pannel is fairly simple and
a logic probe will be adaquate to shoot it if the switches and lights
aren't enough.
Allison
I got this in myh mailbox. It's been a while but maybe someone can still
help this guy. It's a very simple question (except that I've never used any
model of DECWriter)2~.
Please reply to the original sender (he hasn't subscribed to the list yet).
-- Derek
Forwarded message:
> From: "Gary A. Anderson" <GAnderson(a)UMPhysicians.umn.edu>
> To: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:14:33 -0600
>
> Trying to find out how to save settings on the Digital Decwriter III. Can
> you help or do you know of any who can? Thanks
>
> Gary A. Anderson
> Information Systems
> U of MN. Physicians
> Voice 612 782-6432
> Pager 612 648-2406
> Fax 612 782-9558
-----Original Message-----
From: healyzh(a)aracnet.com <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes
>Mike Cheponis wrote:
>> I must say, however, with my digital TDS 210 now, I rarely use the 465
>> unless I need more than 2 traces, and I don't need the digital capture
>> and measurement facilities of the '210 that makes working on the bench
>> -much- more productive.
>
>Well, you seem to like the TDS 210, so I'm curious, which would you
>recommend fixing up the 465B (as seems to be the general advice) or get a
>210? Is there any classic computer gear I'd need a better scope for?
>
Watch used 210s.. Tektronix recalled a huge lot of them (I think almost all
of them) last year as the connection to ground was breaking off inside the
scope (Yikes!). Also, the 210 has a shitty display like my THS720A... it is
LCD and rather fast changing waveforms can look like a band of black on the
screen (very annoying).. The price is right and the storage is nice but the
display is not anywhere near as nice as a CRT.
Best thing to do is go to your local Tek dealer and try out a TDS210 and a
CRT model (maybe even a 694C ;-) ).. See which one your comfortable with
and then buy used if you don't want to spend the bucks.
I don't recommend throwing away a few hundred dollars on an old piece of
junk... you just might get another PDP-8 to fix! ;-)
john
>> > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:45:59 -0800 Al Kossow <aek(a)spies.com> writes:
>> > > Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST
>> > > place I'd buy any test gear from.
>
>OK, it's no where near the same class, but they are who I bought my Fluke
>from, they appear to have a good selection of what I hope is new test
>equipment. I do have one rule about buying stuff at Fry's, I don't buy
>anything there if I think I might want to take it back. So far I've not
had
>any real problems, however, the longer they've had their store up here in
>Oregon, the worse their prices seem to be. It's no longer worth it to make
>a trip down there based on prices. But for some things they seem to be the
>best place to go if you want a good selection, and test equipment looks to
>be one of those things.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>
"Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?"
Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST
place I'd buy any test gear from.
I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used
TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd
be able to buy new in your price range.
You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500
Hi all,
I just scored a 6-foot metal, 2-door cabinet that is marked as fireproof.
I'd like to think it'd be a great place to store classic media, but it's
not entirely heat-proof. To test it, I placed a hot clothes iron on the
outer wall and measured the temperature/rate of climb on the inner wall,
as well as the ambient temperature inside the cabinet. It was enough that,
even with a comparatively small heat source (well, to a garage fire,
anyway), anything within a few inches of the inner wall would have most
definitely been damaged, and possibly items close to the center after a
half-hour of exposure to the heat source.
My question is this: is there something anyone could recommend that would
make a good lining for the inner walls of the cabinet to insulate it from
heat? Something that doesn't take up too much room (would kind of defeat
the purpose of having a cabinet to store things in) and would protect the
interior contents in case of a small fire. I don't think there's anything
between the inner and outer walls besides air, though I'm not certain.
Perhaps I could squirt some of that expanding foam in there or something?
Cheers,
Aaron
Having done this I'll weigh in in favor of the older Tek gear. When I had
$1000 in my pocket "destined" for an oscilloscope I surveyed the market and
nearly bough a Kiksui(sp?) scope. It was Korean made and had more bells and
whistles than the Teks in the same price range. I ended up buying a used
465B that still had a valid calibration stamp. After about a month the
horizontal amplifier went out on one of the channels which I had repaired
for about $150. Since then it has worked flawlessly. Later, after my means
had expanded somewhat I went back to the same dealer that was hot on the
Kik scopes and asked him where they had gone, he simply said "away." They
kept coming back (returns) and so he stopped selling them.
So consider taking the 465B to a repair shop and getting a quote. If it is
under $500 it would be a better investment than a "lesser" but newer scope.
--Chuck
--- Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> wrote:
> My sentiments exactly.
> I should *never* have sold my 465B. It was in pristine condition,
> and I sorely miss it today. I would seriously look for a *nice*
> 465. They're old, but there were alot of them made, and they're
> pretty reliable (well, I never had any trouble with mine, anyway).
That ain't old... I've got a Tek 317 that I bought at auction about six
or seven years ago... it has an A.E.C. inventory sticker from 1968. The
sign at the auction cashier's window said, "All equipment is guaranteed
to be non-radioactive". Some reassurance. :-)
It didn't come with probes, but a friend of mine at the local university
found me a package of vintage probes, unopened, in a drawer. Probably been
there since they were new.
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
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Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping.
OK... take two on this...
I've been working with a pile of hex and quad ONMIBUS cards and a PDP-8/e
and PDP-8/a chassis. At one point I had a working machine, but since last
weekend, something new has flaked out.
I have one KK8E board set that passes basic front panel ops, runs an
inchworm program but does not seem to be able to communicate out the
serial port (M8560). I have a KK8A/DKC8AA/KM8A set that appears to
boot floppies, but gives me funny results on the console. The KK8E
processor board set does not seem to want to work in the -8/a box. The
KK8A does not seem to work in the PDP-8/e box (the Load Address switch
increments the MA register; it doesn't load it).
The best I'm getting out of the -8/a right now is to waggle the floppies
a bit, sort of boot, and drop me at an OS/8 dot prompt. This is even true
of the ADVENTURE floppy that was booting last week. When I type commands
at the prompt, none run, but I get odd error messages. One pattern is that
if I type the command "ADVENT" at the prompt on the advent disk, I get back
"ADFEND" - the letters drop a bit. If I attempt to run a command "UUUU", I
get back "EEEE" as an error. Given that if the CPU or memory or RX8E were
bad the system wouldn't boot, it suggests to me that there is a problem
with the DKC8AA.
My biggest problem is that I have schematics, but without a front panel on
the PDP-8/a, I can't generate discreet operations to run the CPU through its
paces and I can't toggle in simple programs. I have the prints for the
DKC8AA. Is it feasible to build my own front panel? I don't even have one
to copy; I'd be guessing the whole way. If I could use the KK8A in the -8/e
box, I would use _its_ front panel, but that doesn't seem to work either.
Does anyone have any helpful advice to get me past this chicken and the egg
problem? I have prints; I have extender cards; I have a scope. I even have
a logic analyzer, but it's not presently at the same place as the -8's. What
I don't have is a combination of PDP-8 hardware that lends itself to
reasonable testing.
As for the PDP-8/e, does anyone have a simple TTY test routine? I could
write one, but I'd love to see one that has stood the test of time. As I
mentioned above, the inchworm runs fine. I'm presently using all quad cards
except for an MS8-C 32K MOS memory card; I have core, but I don't know where
the box of overhead connectors got left - I only know where three connectors
are and the CPU needs two. I do happen to have a couple of Heathkit backplane
connectors I can wire together, but I'm still short enough to do a proper job.
For now, the MOS memory seems to work fine; it's the M865 and M8650 that I'm
looking into.
Thanks in advance,
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping.
<good at looking at the color burst of a video signal in any detail. Again,
<find most folks design/troubleshoot in a variety of areas and that's why w
<need scopes with all the toys. I don't see Tek making any more 20Mhz boxes
Two things. 465 is not a 20mhz scope though Tek made many slower ones.
A 20mhz scope is fast enough to look at the main clock of an 8/e/f/m.
I use it for faster stuff knowing it will smear a bit after all it is
20mhz at 3db...
I can be a snob and buy a heavy gun, had one. The problem is the FEW
times I need it I can borrow a nice 7400, or anything else that suits
me. The rest of the time it would sit if I had it. For the bulk of what
I do the B&K2120 is plenty good enough. If anything I'd consider a digital
o-scope not for fast events but the painfully slow where the storage mode
would be real nice. When you consider most of the systems I'm like to pull
the scope out for are PDP-8, or z80(4mhz) speeds a scope better than
40-50mhz is wasted anyway. The fast stuff I play with really wants the
16 or more traces of the logic analyser anyway.
I'd say this, buy what you can afford, newer is better. Best is if you
can try it before you buy it. Buying used, if it's too old, good or not
maintenance can be painful. I saw the writing on the wall with the 465,
great scope but age is a potential problem for maintenance. Something
newer will also stay calibrated longer too. Also for the electronically
inexperienced servicing something like that can be more than a beginers
project plus a distraction from the real task.
Oh, the money I didn't spend on a scope was spent on other toys like RF
sources and the like.
Allison
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes
>> It's rare that I do. Used to have a 465B, didn't use it enough to
warrent
>> maintaining it or it's weight. While the book calls for a better scope,
>> I know the 20mhz B&K would be more than enough to track 8F core problems
>
>Sure... But if you're buying a 'scope, it makes sense to get one that
>will do all that you might need. So while you don't need a 50MHz 'scope
>or whatever to sort out 8/f core memory, you might find it worth getting
>one for other work.
>
>> as I used it to set the slice time. Then again, I know how to get the
most
>> out of a scope too.
>
>Oh sure...
>
>There are some people here (you're certainly one, I like to think I'm
>another) who (most of the time, at least :-)) understand what we're
>trying to look at and understand just what our test gear will do when
>given a strange signal. We know what our '20MHz' scope will do with a
>30MHz signal. And we know how to push the instruments a bit.
>
>You don't _need_ expensive test equipment. I've done a lot of fault
>tracing using a cheap analogue multimeter and a Radio Shack logic probe.
>And with those 2 instruments I managed to extract enough clues to the
>fault to replace the fault component first time (most of the time).
>
>However, I am also sure that there are people here who could use some
>more clues as to the fault, who can't interpret every last piece of
>information that they can get from simple instruments. And those people
>generally make use of rather more instruments, which perhaps aren't
>strictly necessary...
>
>Don't get me wrong -- there are times when _I_ find a 'scope essential.
>Perhaps if I was more clueful I'd not need one then either, but I do. But
>I've also discovered that _very_ rarely do you need a new and expensive
>piece of test gear to fix a classic computer. Most likely you can do it
>with what you already have if you think about the problem.
>
I agree but I would not recommend someone dropping a couple hundred bucks to
fix an old 20Mhz scope as I am sure they would not limit their use
*exclusively* to vintage minis. A 20Mhz scope in RF/High speed logic
troubleshooting/design is totally useless. A 20Mhz scope isn't even very
good at looking at the color burst of a video signal in any detail. Again, I
find most folks design/troubleshoot in a variety of areas and that's why we
need scopes with all the toys. I don't see Tek making any more 20Mhz boxes.
>I was discussing a related subject with a friend earlier this evening. We
>came to the conclusion that experienced hackers (this was actually about
>mechanical engineering, but it applies to electronics as well) can do a
>lot of good work using 'scrap' components and a few tools/instruments.
>But beginners probably should use new (and known-good) components and
>have rather more instruments. Of course it's often the other way round --
>beginners don't have the money to spend on a hobby they may not continue
>with, while experienced people have obtained a good collection of tools
>and test gear over the years (and really know how to use it!).
>
>-tony
>
Well thanks to the PDP-8/m, I'm finally getting around to trying to figure
out how to use my Tek 465B scope. Unfortunatly according to my Dad the
scope needs some work, I figure he should know as he retired from Tek.
With his help I did finally get some readings, not quite what I'm looking
for, but I'm fighting several obsticales. No manual, an apparently flakey
scope and you *don't* even want to know what I'm using for probes (hint,
they looked kitbashed, and I've had to extend the connectors to be able to
take readings).
End result, I'm pondering just going out and buying a new scope (which I'll
be the first person to say is really, really stupid given my electronics
abilities). Looking at what the recommended replacement for my scope is, I
see it's a TDS220, and more than I want to spend. The recommended
replacement for the scope listed in the PDP-8/e/f/m maintenance manual is a
TDS210, still more than I really want to spend, but getting closer. Does
anyone have any recommendations for good new scopes that would probably
only be used for working on DEC gear (but you never know). Ease of use,
and small size a big plus. Ideally something under $1000, or even better
$800.
Is Fry's a good place to get scopes? They've probably got the best
selection in the area that I'm aware of.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
<> You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500
Youch! I do 98% of my work with a B&K 20mhz dual trace and a NLS MS15!
Most of the time I don't need more than that to see if life exists and
rough timing. I also have a Logic analyser if I need something faster.
It's rare that I do. Used to have a 465B, didn't use it enough to warrent
maintaining it or it's weight. While the book calls for a better scope,
I know the 20mhz B&K would be more than enough to track 8F core problems
as I used it to set the slice time. Then again, I know how to get the most
out of a scope too.
Allison
I don't remember a "Visual C" for DOS. There was Microsoft C which the best
version was probably 5.
There (might) have been a Visual C for Windows 3.1. I received a free copy
of Visual C++ for Windows 3.1 with Visual C++ V4, or whatever. I see copies
of those in the CD resale/software resellers around here.
I have MS C, but I think the only one I have is for Xenix....
Of course, I could be totally wrong, I can't remember.
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Farmer <wlfarmer(a)ancimail.prod.fedex.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 5:40 PM
Subject: MSVC
>Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do
>not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS.
>
>
>
Too bad it's the 465 "B" version. I've got an extra service manual for the
'A' version, which was the last one TEK built before simplifying their
triggering circuit. They did this because HP proved you don't have to be
able to trigger all that well.
I recently (2 years back) bought a fairly clean TEK 475A with the DM44
option and probes for the scope and the DMM for $500 by searching the
newsgroups. I still have my 465 which I bought about 20 years ago from an
instrument rental outfit. It needed a little service, and, when I took it
to TEK, I learned that it was only three months old and still in warranty,
so the tune-up was free.
The fellow who declared his "fav" is the 2465 has forgotten the size of the
difference in cost between a scope like the one I bought and that model. My
2467B was stolen in a burglary about five years ago, and, while I got my
2467 from a local aerospace contractor doing a selloff after a contract was
prematurely terminated. The 2467 equipped as mine was would have cost
about $15K leaving out the less common options, though there were fewer than
half a dozen for sale throughout the country. I should have paid closer
attention to the price changes and the ones which were sold while I was
negotiating with my insurance carrier. By the time I got a check, the
lowest-priced available 2467B was over $20k.
For fiddling with a PDP-8 you don't need a 400MHz 4-channel instrument with
GPIB, etc, with microchannel plate display amplification to help you observe
metastability in sub-10ns logic, since there isn't any (sub 10ns logic, I
mean).
If you look on DEJANEWS, you can find several guys who routinely refurbish
and resell instruments. They will send the instrument to you on approval,
and all you're risking is the odd $50 for shipping. A lot depends on what
you have sense to tell the guy you want, since that may remind him to check
things out more thoroughly.
I'd recommend you buy your probes from the guy who sells you the instrument.
They're more important than you might think, and the guy who wants to sell
his scope will be motivated to find you what you want. Be sure to insiste
that they be complete, however, because missing parts are likely to remain
so.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes
>On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote:
>> You can get manuals for these someplace. They are out there.
>
> For manuals try www.usimperio.com. I deal with these folks regularly
>(they're local to me) and they're very well-stocked. Tek manuals aren't
cheap,
>though...
>
> -Dave McGuire
-----Original Message-----
From: healyzh(a)aracnet.com <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes
>john wrote:
>> Watch used 210s.. Tektronix recalled a huge lot of them (I think almost
all
>> of them) last year as the connection to ground was breaking off inside
the
>
>If I replace the scope I've got, I don't see me trying to cut corners again
>by getting another used scope. If I do, it will be from a reputable
dealer.
>
>> scope (Yikes!). Also, the 210 has a shitty display like my THS720A... it
is
>> LCD and rather fast changing waveforms can look like a band of black on
the
>> screen (very annoying).. The price is right and the storage is nice but
the
>> display is not anywhere near as nice as a CRT.
>
>I've got to admit I'm wondering about the quality of a LCD display.
>
I am quite sure you *won't* like it compared to a CRT... and a field of
video on it looks like garbage.
>> Best thing to do is go to your local Tek dealer and try out a TDS210 and
a
>> CRT model (maybe even a 694C ;-) ).. See which one your comfortable with
>> and then buy used if you don't want to spend the bucks.
>
>Sound advice, I figure I'd like to be able to see what I'm getting before I
>get it. However, a quick look at the Tek site has me suspecting I'm not
>going to want to spring for any more than a TDS210.
>
Then buy a CRT scope from another manufacturer. Tek is costly... or... You
could be patient, call the largest local liquidator around and get on his
mailing list. I picked up two of my scopes through bankruptcy auctions and
paid far less than what they were worth. Look for a local company going
broke that *would* need a good digital CRT scope in operations(more than you
think). You can get the list before the auction and scan for a TEK realtime.
I have turned down *many* TDS400 series scopes for less than $600US at these
auctions because what could I do with a forth scope????
Most bidders attend a food processing plant for food and machines.. not
Tektronix scopes.. and you won't find your local surplus guy bidding against
you if it is the only piece of electronic equipment they had. I take
*leaves* from work at least twice a month for auctions.
At auctions over the past three years I have found (just for interest):
IBM 1401 - went for $500 (Interhauler Yahts - Niagara Falls Area)
Basic MAI 4 - $800 (some guy thought he could use it in his company -
hahahaha)
NCR Xenix? Towers
Actually I saw another 1401 sell at "Sun Beam Shoes" in Port Colbourne (near
niagara falls) for scrap at their bankruptcy auction because they couldn't
even get a minimum bid of $200.
Too many PDPs to list.. not to mention an IBM1130 at the local school board
auction a few years ago.
>> I don't recommend throwing away a few hundred dollars on an old piece of
>> junk... you just might get another PDP-8 to fix! ;-)
>
>I like that kind of reasoning :^) I'd still like to get something like an
>-8/i one of these days, but the -8/m is better than nothing (and it's taken
>a long time just to get it).
>
I am happy you agree. I could never justify blowing $500 on a piece of junk
if I know I *really* need to spend a thousand bucks on something I can use
for a long time.
8I ????????? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. email me!
> Zane
>
On Nov 23, 21:44, Tony Duell wrote:
> >
> > ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
> > > My guess is that tifftopnm (which is what I normally use) is only
going
> > > to extract the first page as well. Anybody got a utility to pull the
tiff
> > > apart into individual pages?
> >
> > Look for tiffsplit, which I think comes with libtiff (so if you built
>
> Right... The version of the pnm tools I installed came with libtiff
> (correctly configured :-)), but not with any other utilities...
>
> However, I now know what to look for when I need to split up multi-page
> tiffs (which is hopefully not too often) -- thanks!
I thought of tiffsplit too, but I tried it on a couple of the smaller tiffs
>from highgate today -- and it choked. tiffsplit only recognises a limited
set of tags, and those tiffs seem to have at least one it doesn't like :-(
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
On Nov 22, 18:04, Bill Pechter wrote:
> Boy the number of 4:55pm calls on Friday used to really %R$^& me off
> including the one a printer at Roche medicalwhere the customer shimmed
the
> ribbon path with test tube lids and left scalpul blades in the LP25 when
I
> got sent out to work it.
>
> The printer was obviously having problems for at least a day or so
> before they finished their medical test runs -- but they waited to call
> until it was completely unreadable.
Sounds like one I had to deal with when I worked for a third-party
maintenance company. I was trained on Q-bus and mostly worked in the
regional workshop, but I did a few fill-ins on other stuff. Anyway, one
afternoon I was sent out to the head office of a well-known bank in
Edinburgh, to deal with a printer (not on normal contract, but a
fix-on-fail pay-per-fix deal). I was ushered into a room with four middle
managers, one of whom was highly resentful that the Epson FX80 on his PC AT
had stopped working, and even more resentful that someone was going to get
in his way in order to fix it :-)
The problem was simple -- it was so clogged with paper dust that the head
couldn't move all the way to the margin. I don't just mean there was a lot
of dust on the carriage and bars, the case was *full*. I politely
suggested the owner might like to clean it (or have it cleaned)
periodically, and got a stream of invective about how he'd complained it
was making his printouts dusty, it was my problem not his, he was far too
busy to ever do anything of the sort, and it was a maintenance company's
job anyway. Well, I though of showing him the page in the manual about
user maintenance, but it would obviously have been a lost cause...
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
My sentiments exactly.
I should *never* have sold my 465B. It was in pristine condition,
and I sorely miss it today. I would seriously look for a *nice*
465. They're old, but there were alot of them made, and they're
pretty reliable (well, I never had any trouble with mine, anyway).
On Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:45:59 -0800 Al Kossow <aek(a)spies.com> writes:
> "Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?"
>
> Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST
> place I'd buy any test gear from.
>
> I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used
> TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd
> be able to buy new in your price range.
>
> You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
A co-worker came and placed a complete copy of Windows 1.0 on my desk today. Wow it has all the paperwork nothing was mailed in. The manuals are in great shape as is the 5 1/4 diskettes ( I will be backing them up to the zip drive or cd) and the box is in fair shape with small signs of wear. Also got 6 manuals today, one was a service manual for the PC40-III commodore.
I use a hotmail account for situations as you've described. Just the other
day, I got a chilly little notice from them indicating that they were about
to purge a few of my files because I had a lot of stuff there. I had, on
that day, received 76 new emails, of which 72 were spam. 6 of those were
spam with sender addresses within HOTMAIL. I figure they can't be doing
much to discourage spamming if they go right ahead and forward what they
obviously recognize as having counterfeited their own domain into the sender
address.
Hotmail has a destination, i.e. abuse(a)hotmail.com, to which you're
encouraged to send your complaints, particularly in the form of uncommented
forwarded spam, complete with headers. Now, I don't know that they DO
anything, but you'll get this neat little reply from them, indicating that
they do a bunch of stuff to discourage spamming via their facilities. They
also tell you that some folks counterfeit their domain as a sender address,
and how you can tell it's a counterfeit address, etc.
What I think would help would be if the domain from which spam originated
were blocked from sending email, particularly for the larger concerns whose
income/existent is dependent on large volumes of mail, etc, THEY would take
steps to prevent it. If it were simply made impossible to send the same
message to more than one destination address, that would help, as would
disallowing sending the same message twice.
I'm not an expert, and I don't doubt that the spammers will find another way
to do the same thing. What disturbs me is that they're chewing up bandwidth
that we're all eventually going to have to pay for in one way or another,
most probably by paying for internet bandwidth the way we pay for long
distance phone service. Now, that would help get rid of those annoying
little 800KB "greeting cards" of which those little old ladies like to send
thousands a day, but the spammers would still chew up the bandwidth.
Regulation is an ugly thing, and it's not likely that the sort of regulation
that people in the US come up with will help anything. They're always
trying to legislate good sense, particularly the folks living near the San
Andreas fault, who are apparently the world leaders in this. It's not their
domain alone, however. The type of regulation that will come about as a
result is likely to be the sort of regulation that folks like Adrianna
Huffington promote, i.e. don't let anybody put anything out on the internet
just in case my little kid might stumble into something I don't want him/her
to see. They are overreacting, aren't they? Gawd! I have never run into a
nudie by accident, and, quite frankly, I can't even find decent ones when I
want to!
Nevertheless, it would be nice to watch the halftime show at the superbowl
and see them take the 100 worst spammers and slowly dip them into a solder
pot.
<end of rant>
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Own Your Own Internet Store
>Upon the date 12:29 PM 11/23/99 +0000, sports111opp(a)hotmail.com said
>something like:
>
><rudely intrusive HTML msg snipped>
>
>Could these guys have sent this as a vindictive attempt at getting back at
>us for your good attempt at LARTting them Bruce? If so, *really* LART them
>next time :-) But that Hotmail account helps to make them a bit invisible
>I think. BTW, you asked u.wash to try to limit access to the list only to
>those who are subscribers. I hope they don't take the simple route and
>simply bar any Hotmail-sourced messages from getting through. Some
>ClassicCmp subscribers could use Hotmail as a quick, simple email provider
>-especially if they're traveling, etc.
>
>Regards, Chris
>-- --
>Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
>Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
> Member of Antique Wireless Association
> URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
Couldn't agree more Al. I have and use a 2465 on most analog and 4 trace
matters. I have a THS720A for "inside the rack" and I use my TDS654 for high
speed glitch problems.
I would highly recommend anyone buying a 2465 on EBay... Excellent scopes to
300Mhz and really inexpensive... much better than the 465.
-----Original Message-----
From: Al Kossow <aek(a)spies.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes
>"Is Fry's a good place to get scopes?"
>
>Fry's isn't a good place to buy anything. They would be the LAST
>place I'd buy any test gear from.
>
>I personally think you'll be better off with a late model used
>TEK scope (my fav is the 2465A right now) than anything you'd
>be able to buy new in your price range.
>
>You should be able to find a 2465 in decent shape for $1000-$1500
>
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
> My guess is that tifftopnm (which is what I normally use) is only going
> to extract the first page as well. Anybody got a utility to pull the tiff
> apart into individual pages?
Look for tiffsplit, which I think comes with libtiff (so if you built
the PNM stuff with TIFF support, you may have it installed already).
-Frank McConnell
Our latest list spam has been traced. LARTs have been launched.
I've also sent a query to CLASSICCMP's human contact asking if things can
be configured to allow postings only from those who subscribe. It wouldn't
stop a Really Determined spammer, but it would make them a lot easier to
track down.
We'll see what happens.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
I resubscribed at a different domain that I own, so I'm back
on the list and receiving messages. I'd like to figure out
the problem with U-Wash not sending to threedee.com nonetheless.
- John
Sipke de Wal,
I passed your concern about Beryllium Oxide to someone here.
His response:
The only danger is as mentioned below, dust which does not
happen by accident. It is necessary to seriously grind or file the hard
material to create dust. As long as you do not try to machine it or
file it or break it up there is not problem.
So, assemblers should be warned not to mistreat it, breaking
grinding or filing it.
When I use it I also use thermal compound to make a good
thermal connection. This greasy substance also provides
a measure of added protection because if the BEO were
accidentally scratched or broken any small particles would
become mixed into this greasy compound and not become airborne.
It has the properties of:
1. a dielectric constant of about 6 for low capacitance
2. a very low thermal resistance for cooling
If there is great fear of using it alumina can be substituted:
1. dielectric constant of 10
2. low thermal resistance but not as good as BEO.
Ron Miller
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sipke de Wal [SMTP:sipke@wxs.nl]
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 10:40 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: E.U.N.U.C.H. (Cooling)
>
> Beware !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Beryllium was mentioned here. Beryllium Oxide was used in the thermal
> conduction stuff HF-transistors decades ago, but this ceramic stuff can
> be quite lethal. If it breaks and you inhale a few microns of the dust
> there off, lungcancer can almost be guarantied within a decade !!!!
>
> Stay away from BEO !!!!!
>
> Sipke de Wal
>
>
>
> Hans Franke wrote:
> >
> > > At -100 Celsius: Al, 241; Cu, 420, Ag, 432. Interestingly enough, at
> these low
> > > temperatures Beryllium is pretty good at 367.
> >
On Nov 22, 8:19, Eric Smith wrote:
> ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
> > Incidentally, back when Apple ][s were current it was generally claimed
> > in the UK that if you plugged anything but a colourcard into slot 7 you
> > would do serious damage to the machine. Looking at the schematics I
can't
> > see a reason why this will do any damage, but I've never had the
courage
> > to try it. Anyone know anything about this?
I remember being told that, and remember the sticker over Slot 7 (one of my
Europluses still has the sticker) but I don't know if there was any cause
for concern. I think the purpose of the sticker was simply to ensure
people left Slot 7 free in case a colour card was added later.
> Probably just an urban legend, like the ones about how all your memory
> chips need to be from the same vendor, and how they must all be the
> same speed, and how you shouldn't use 120 ns DRAMs in a computer designed
> for 150 ns DRAMs, and similar BS.
Probably. The only things different about Slot 7 are pins 19 and 35 --
which carry sync and color-ref signals from the motherboard to Slot 7, but
are unconnected on the other slots. According to the circuit diagram,
anyway. Unless some card used those pins for some non-standard purpose, it
shouldn't matter.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
I have no clue what this guy is selling. The fact that he's posting
>from an AOL account bothers me a bit.
Still, he may have something of interest. Contact him directly if
you're curious.
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
On 23 Nov 1999 05:19:02 GMT, in comp.os.rsts you wrote:
>>From: reddogno1(a)aol.com (Reddog no1)
>>Newsgroups: comp.os.rsts
>>Subject: Used PDP Equipment.
>>Lines: 3
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com
>>X-Admin: news(a)aol.com
>>Date: 23 Nov 1999 05:19:02 GMT
>>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>>Message-ID: <19991123001902.10768.00001374(a)ng-fm1.aol.com>
>>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.rsts:19
>>
>>Does anyone know who would like to purchase used PDP Equipment?
>>Please reply to Reddogno1(a)aol.com
>>Thank You.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho,
Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com
Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com
"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object,
event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."
I have to agree, though they never could build a 'scope that would trigger
they way you'd have liked . . .
Their downfall, by the way, seems to have coincided with their move into
computers. For a time this seemed OK. Their notion of "user-friendliness"
was looking like a pretty good one in their logic analyzers too, but I don't
remember an HP computer product, particularly once they absorbed APOLLO, for
which any installation/upgrade, no matter how minor didn't involve 3 layers
of system downtime, on the order of 3 days per workstation, i.e. if you had
one server and three stations, you had 3 instances of 9 days of downtime,
say, to get the updated simulator libraries realigned, though they were
supposed to work "out of the box" but didn't. We had more servers and more
stations, so there were more instances of longer downtime.
Though I did object to the choice of HP, I was still mightily embarassed by
the fact that after having HP CAD/CAE systems for a year, they still
couldn't be relied upon to do what any PC could do.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: HP's not cool? (was Re: pdp-11/60 Semi-Rescue)
>>
>> I think anyone who has been hooked by HP gear would say the same thing.
>> Even before anything with the HP logo on it could grab my undivided
>> attention, I was always amazed at the kind of ingenuity and engineering
>> brilliance that went into the physical design of the systems.
>
>Yep... HP stuff _used_ to be very well engineered, both electronically
>and mechanically. The 9100 is a total work of art, for example :-). I
>love working on such machines.
>
>Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their
>support at the moment is a total joke.
>
>-tony
>
>> I had the following results when depositing 7777 to the memory.
>>
>> Memory locations: xxx0 - xxx3 don't save anything
>> Memory locations: xxx4 - xxx7 save 7760
>
>OK, on the G227 card there's a pair of 8251 decoders at locations E46 and
>E39 that decode the lowest 3 address lines, along with the Read H signal.
>E46 handles locations xxx0-xxx3 and E39 handles xxx4-xxx7 (at least if
Unfortunatly I won't be able to look into this until I get off work tonite,
or tomorrow before work. If nothing else I'll try and hit the books tonite
and get some of the preliminary research on this done.
BTW, does anyone know of a way to read the TIFF's on Highgate on a UNIX box,
for when I don't have the paper copies of the Maintenance manual handy, but
have a chance to do a little reading? It would be nice if XV can handle
them, but it only seems to be able to display the first page.
>> Also step 6 tells me to check the resistance of diodes FSA2501. Um,
>> someone mind explaining how to do this exactly? Beware, I don't have the
>Then for each diode pack, check for diode action [1] between pin 1
>(common cathode) on the chip and pins 3,12,2,5,8,7,11,9 separately (8
>tests). Then do the same between pin 14 (common anode) and
>3,12,2,5,8,7,11,9 (8 more tests).
Terrific! This is exactly the info I was looking for! I'll have to double
check tonite, and redo my readings, but I think the core board is OK.
>HOWEVER. Diodes are non-linear components. It's not meaningful to talk
>about the forward resistance unless you specify the current that was used
>to measure it. Different meters (and even the same meter on different
>ranges) can give very different results. My guess is that the figures
>given in 4.7.1 in the manual relate to a particular type of meter (the
>Triplett Model 310 mentioned in Table 4.1?), and you might get very
>different results on a working board.
This and the pinout above look to explain my problems with checking the
FSA2501's. I'm showing about .8 MegaOhm's one direction, and infinite the
other direction. I'm using a Fluke 77III Digital Multimeter to take the
readings. That's so far off from the ranges given in the manual, that I was
fairly sure I was doing something wrong. After all I think the manual says
something like 25 Ohms, while I'm getting .8 MegaOhm's. I still find that a
little hard to believe.
This morning I went so far as to try and check out ALL the X-Y lines and
Sense-Inhibit lines running through the core. I'm fairly sure the core plane
itself is intact.
Thanks for all the great info Tony! I'm starting to think I might just be able
to get this fixed.
Zane
"Can you point me to some more info on the HP's. I learned basic on
HP2000c's but I'd like to understand the hardware design on 'em.
"
Jeff Moffatt's site is a good place to start
http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/
If anyone out there is running FOCAL,1969 (standalone) and can send me the
amount of time it takes their PDP-8 to come back with the result of these
functions(not including the teletype time) I would appreciate it.
I have the 8/S clocked at:
TYPE 1067^56 5 seconds
TYPE FSQT(1067^56) 4 seconds
TYPE FSQT(123^789) 25 seconds.
This is a quick test and I will try some other functions.....
I am going to try this on the 8I.. I would appreciate the results from a
straight-8, and an 8/E.
BTW: This is a great "light bulb" test.
john
I knew that would get your attention! I picked up an old HP 7245B
printer/ plotter that uses thermal roll paper with tractor feed holes on
the edges and a notch at the top of each page. Does anyone know where I
can get paper like that? I don't know the HP part nuber for it but I do
remember that they also sold the same kind of paper except it was fan fold
instead of rolled. I can use the fan fold stuff in a pinch.
Thanks,
Joe
I've been unable to receive anything from the CCC listproc
for about a month. When I send to the listproc, I don't even
get a response. My mail unblocked for a few days at the beginning
of this after we tweaked something at my ISP, but then it stopped
again, and now I'm not sure what's the root of the problem.
I tried to get a response fom Derek Peschel but he must be
busy or missed my message. Does anyone know an admin at U-Wash
who might be able to tell me why the listproc is rejecting
mail addressed to me?
An alternative mailing address for me is mr128(a)yahoo.com .
- John
<> > ...And you folks make fun of old DEC Field Service guys 8-(
<>
<> No, the OLD field service guys were great. (At least, many of them
<> were.)
I had the honor of working with a number of the old guard Field engineers
that knew the pointy end of a soldering iron from a scope probe. There were
few left by the late 80s that could still setup flight times for the hammers
on the big printers or setup a unibus crate. Then there were the new kids
that we wouldn't let have more than basic screwdrivers.
Allison
"Tony Duell" wrote:
> Just a pity that modern HP stuff is nowhere near as good, and that their
> support at the moment is a total joke.
>
> -tony
Like others, I also disagree, at least in part. I think that it is
pretty
clear that "consumer electronics" HP products that are marketed for home
use (Pavillions, IDE CDrom burners and the like) are awful in terms of
quality. One of the most deplorable products that they have ever put
out is the craddle for the HP 320LX and other such palmtops. Due to
a design flaw, it can be easily bent along a certain axis, resulting
in poor, intermittent connection and corresponding profanity by the
user.
Easily the worst mechanical design I have ever seen.
But the enterprise-level stuff is still pretty robust
(and, as always, $$pricey$$ ). In the computer and electronics
labs here, where stuff undergoes inhumane abuse by students, it is still
the HP equipment that lasts longest. Most, if not all, of the 715's and
720's that were bought ca. 1993 are still working. I don't remember any
that was retired due to malfunction; rather, people upgraded. I have
a stand-alone 735 that has been down two times since 1995, once because
of
a power failure that downed every machine in the building and another
because of an OS upgrade. The newer workstations seem to be just as
reliable by the account of my colleagues.
Regarding your hp49, isn't this the first model churned out by the
calculator division after its relocation to Australia? I agree that
materials and durability have been downgraded; the 48SX is known for
its easy-to-crack LCD, and I imagine that the 49 is worse. Like
Joe, the last hp calculator that I really like is the hp71b.
Which "advertised feature" did you not find in the 49?
--
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14(a)cornell.edu
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853
For laughs I've been running a 486dx/33 (intel) at 66mhz in a dell box.
The only mod if the heat sink is a moose I had and its attached to the
chip using a BEo filled thermal epoxy. Runs cool and it's solid.
I've tried that in a socket5 Mb I have using a 486dx2/50 at 100mhz, seems
fine after three months. The cooling is not big a problem.
I consider both abuse, but hey I have a few. Besides I've done that before
with 8085s and Z80s with no ill effects.
Allison
> This came up at dinner with Eric Smith on Friday. Is Charles Lasner
> (lasner(a)unc.edu) still with us? I have a bad feeling about this..
> This email adr doesn't work any more, and the last posting from him
> was in 1996.
I've heard nothing from him since about that time. I've also asked this
question several times over the last few years and never received a
definitive response.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
24" wide cabinet are typically Telephone equipment racks.
-----Original Message-----
From: lwalker(a)interlog.com [mailto:lwalker@interlog.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 10:40 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Racks ?
I've been offered 2 castored racks by the owner of the place I am
using temporarily for storage, which were abandoned by a previous
occupant.
They are about 5' high by 24'' wide with lockable front and rear
doors. One of the rear doors had been forced open and I only got
a quick glance inside. I made out a micropolis(IIRC) mfr. label on
one module and a large "PDP 4800" stencil on another one which
looked like a PSU. There were about 20 DB25 cables connected
to one of the modules.
I'm a complete novice when it comes to mini's, and due to storage
space limitations plus that I would also have to remove them when I
vacate my locker I've been reluctant to take them.
Anyone have any idea on what they might be ? I realize this is not
much info and will be looking at them again when I have a flashlight
and a means of forcing open a front door panel.
ciao larry
>This came up at dinner with Eric Smith on Friday. Is Charles Lasner
>(lasner(a)unc.edu) still with us? I have a bad feeling about this..
>This email adr doesn't work any more, and the last posting from him
>was in 1996.
You might try "lasner(a)metalab.unc.edu". From my account there:
$ run [.fish]fish
_Host: login.metalab.unc.edu
_Port:
Connected to host titan.metalab.unc.edu, port 22.
Remote version: SSH-1.5-1.2.26
%FISH-I-INFO, Exchanging Keys
%FISH-I-INFO, Cipher: blowfish
Logging in as user shoppa
Password:
%FISH-I-INFO, Entering interactive mode
Last login: Tue Nov 16 22:17:33 1999 from timaxp.trailing-
No mail.
Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.6 Generic August 1997
NOTICE - We are no longer sunsite.unc.edu; we are now
MetaLab.unc.edu
Be sure to make all new links, e-mail, etc refer to MetaLab.unc.edu
[titan.oit.unc.edu]</export/sunsite/users/shoppa>% finger lasner
Login name: lasner In real life: Charles Lasner
Directory: /export/sunsite/users/lasner Shell: /bin/ksh
Last login Mon Nov 22 01:48 on 2 from 216-59-45-177.us
No unread mail
No Plan.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Hi Gang:
It is with pleasure that I report that the pdp-11/60 in Vancouver has been
rescued!
Eric Smith flew up from San Jose today, and we rescued the beast, moving
it to a temporary storage locker until Eric can re-attend and drive it
back down south.
It was a _very_ long day, especially for Eric, what with flying etc.
We were fortunate that the person with the machine, Dallas Hinton, lives
next to a lumberyard. He has good relations with the staff, and was able
to borrow a forklift (and operator) from them.
This made loading the behemoth (CPU unit about 600 lbs) quite easy. Also
picked up were two RK06 drives, a Dilog front-loading high density tape
drive, VT52, DECwriter II and III, boxes and boxes of docs, software, and
disk packs.
The only rental truck available on 1 day notice was a 5 ton monster from
Ryder. The gear fit easily in the back. We roped it in as best as
possible, but alas during the 7 mile drive between Dallas' and the storage
locker place, the CPU unit broke its ropes, and despite being restrained
by boxes of docs and the terminals, rolled around and dented the back of
the tape drive unit.
No real damage was done, and the load arrived intact.
The next challenge was getting the CPU cabinet and other units down the
ramp at the back of the truck - no liftgate available, and no forklift at
the mom-n-pop self storage.
So Eric and I gritted our teeth and with much physical effort managed to
roll the units down the ramp _without_ having them either collapse the
ramp or fall off to either side.
The other stuff was moved much more easily, and all of it (save some docs
which Eric wanted to get home for review) is now safely stored.
The machine is in great shape, has all panels, doors. We didn't have a
camera available, due to the short notice. I'll try to take some photos
once Eric comes back to drive the machine down to San Jose. A liftgate
equipped truck will be mandatory - we'd never be able to get the machine
back up the ramp by pushing/pulling. Hmmm a block and tackle or winch
might work too...
Thanks to Dallas Hinton, and the folks on the list who wrote in support of
saving this old machine. Great thanks to Eric for making the supreme
short notice effort to come up and get the 11/60!
The scrap dealer is still coming to Dallas' place on Monday, but now it'll
only be for some broken old Wang terminals (not worth saving, you had to
see them, trust me!).
That's it from Vancouver,
Kevin
--
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
I never gave this much thought because I have a compaticard, though I have
never used it. I've taken it out of the box, though, hence the manual,
floppy, and board are all in different (and unknown) places.
There's no doubt that the 765, which is the controller on which essentially
all PC FD controllers is definitely SD capable, since it's also used in one
of my S-100 systems where it does SD every day.
Surely there's some way to fool the FDC, perhaps by talking to it directly
to accomplish a few simple operaitons, which will enable you to read/write
SD 8" diskettes. I say this because the data rate for SD 8" is the same as
for DD 5-1/4, so the clock must be there. The rest has got to be software
once you've got the cable made.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: Panasonic 8" Floppy Drive
>
>
>On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Olminkhof wrote:
>
>> I've found a box with 2 x 8" floppy drives. . . . external to some
unknown
>> computer.
>>
>> The box is a Panasonic JB3038P and inside are 2 X JA751 drives.
>> The drive connectors and the cable coming out of the box are all 50 pin,
>> exactly like an internal SCSI cable. Unfortunately it isn't recognised
by a
>> SCSI controller, at least not without fiddling with parity and stuff like
>> that.
>>
>> Does anyone know what this might have been for?
>>
>> SCSI 8" floppy drives would have been great cos I don't think I'm ever
going
>> to find a compaticard !
>>
>> Hans
>
>You may not even need a CompatiCard, depending upon the disks that you
>intend to read. You 'wire weave' a cable between a 50-pin SA800
>connector and the usual 34-pin FDC connector using the information
>below:
>
>********************************************************************
>
> The following table is extracted from the CompatiCard manual:
>
> Card 34 37 50 8 Inch Drive
>Signal Name Pin Pin Direction Pin Signal Name
>========================================================================
>Programmable 2 3 ---> 2 Low Current
>Index 8 6 <--- 20 Index
>Drive Select 1/3 12 8 ---> 28 Drive Select 2
>Motor Enable 1/3 16 10 ---> 18 Head Load
>Step Direction 18 11 ---> 34 Direction Select
>Step Pulse 20 12 ---> 36 Step
>Write Data 22 13 ---> 38 Write Data
>
>Write Enable 24 14 ---> 40 Write Gate
>Track 0 26 15 <--- 42 Track 0
>Write Protect 28 16 <--- 44 Write Protect
>Read Data 30 17 <--- 46 Read Data
>Select Head 1 32 18 ---> 14 Side Select
>
>Connect odd number pins of 34 pin connector to odds of 50 pin connector
>Connect pins 21/37 of the DB-37 to all the odd pins on 50 pin connector
>
>************************************************************************
>
>If the disks you intend to read are double density a HD (1.2mb/1.44mb)
>capable FDC should work fine. If they are SD, you may be in some
>difficulty. However, there are 8-bit HD capable FDCs with onboard BIOS
>that are capable of handling that also.
>
> - don
>
>
This came up at dinner with Eric Smith on Friday. Is Charles Lasner
(lasner(a)unc.edu) still with us? I have a bad feeling about this..
This email adr doesn't work any more, and the last posting from him
was in 1996.
>Perhaps Tim Shoppa or Megan Gentry could comment on the
>legality of using PUTR to split apart SIG tapes into their smaller
>DSK files.
The RT-11 (and RSX-11 and RSTS/E and ...) SIG tapes, like all DECUS
contributed material, had their authors sign pieces of paper stating
that the material can be redistributed and repackaged as necessary.
So there's no problem with manipulating any of these as you need or
desire.
John Wilson, at the top of PUTR.DOC, says:
PUTR is a copyrighted but freely distributable utility for
transferring files between various file systems and various
media.
He doesn't put any limitations on its use.
So I see no difficulties with using PUTR to do anything you want with
the PDP-11 freeware archives.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>9. Something TG Products in Planto TX has mounting for 6 chips each with =
>it's own switch ?????
Seeing how much of the rest of the stuff you got was Apple ][-related, I'll
hazard a guess that this is a switchbox for allowing multiple Joysticks/
Paddles/etc. to be switched for use on a single Apple ][. The "old"
][/][+ joystick/paddle connector was the DIP socket and plug.
The Koala Pad that you picked up emulates a Apple analog joystick, BTW (or
two paddles, if you prefer to think like that!)
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
I've never seen an Apple ][+ which didn't "do" color. It was not unusual to
see them hooked to the TV. Often there were two floppy drives, and a 9"
Sanyo B&W "security" monitor sitting on top of the Apple][+ box with a
feed-through to an overhead mounted color monitor, 27" or so, for people in
a classroom to watch.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay West <west(a)tseinc.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 4:35 PM
Subject: Apple ][+ find and info/sw request...
>My dad was cleaning out part of the garage and came across the Programmer
>Reference Card for the S-C Assembler II Disk version 4.0 for the
>pple ][ and Apple ][ Plus.
>
>Gawd does it bring back memorys of leaning assembler on my Apple ][+! Now
>that I have the reference card and all the refreshed memories, is there any
>chance anyone has the software itself laying around on a floppy?
>
>Additional question - when I had my apple ][+ at around age 15 or so, I
>always used a monochrome monitor. I never had color before I got rid of it
>around age 20. I was wondering - does a stock apple ][+ support a color
>monitor or is it monochrome via the RCA jack unless you get an add-in card?
>
>Thanks in advance for any replies!
>
>Jay West
>
--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Been looking through the maintenance manual, and it looks like among the
> > things I need to do tomorrow to check this out is to test voltages on both
> > the G104 and G227 boards. This has me wondering, does it matter if the
> > order is G104/H220/G227, or can you order it like G227/H220/G104 for
> > testing so you can take readings on the G227 board?
>
> AFAIK, you must put the core stack in the middle (so the top connectors
> all fit), but you can have the outer boards either way round. All Omnibus
> slots are equivalent, and the top connectors are symmetrical as well.
One point about "symmetrical"... you _do_ have the core plane in right-side
up, don't you? IIRC, the OMNIBUS side of the core stack is the one with only
grounds on it; the connectors with all the signals going to and fro is for
the top.
I'm not saying you did it, but it'd be easy to reinstall the stack with the
top side down.
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
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