- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by edick＠idcomm.com

While I'd definitely have to weigh in on the side of the 'C' programmers, there are a few things that have disappointed me over the years, more with the compilers than with the general notion of 'C' as a language. As I've often said, however, "Where you sit determines what you see." I live in the microcontroller world, and the compilers vary widely in terms of functionality and quality. There's a range of compilers reaching from doing WAY too much to doing virtually nothing helpful at all. 'C' allows me to write code for these small computers/controllers that runs pretty quickly in terms of development time/effort, yet still enables me to focus my efforts on the task specifics. The compiler (hopefully) deals with the common logica constructs, e.g. iteration, comparison, etc. though it can't be relied on to produce the most compact code nor can it be expected to produce the shortest run times. Most of these compilers produce assembly language output. That means that I can take their output and whittle on at as I need to. I've seen very few of the more popular languages available for microcontrollers. There's no CC++ for the PIC, nor is there an ADA for the 68HC705. WHile there are PASCAL compilers for the more popular microcontrollers, they're not that common, and support for the various flavors of the common, e.g. 8x51-core-based varieties, of which there are literally dozens, is often left to the user. If it weren't for 'C', there'd only be assembler for most of my programming, and, frankly, if it weren't for 'C', there'd probably be few assemblers, since they're almost all written in 'C'. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:02 AM Subject: Re: The C programming language >>In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de writes: >> >>> I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the >>> sense of degeneration. >> >>Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and portable >>language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at the >>same time allowing elegance in program design and structure. > >The key word here is "allowing" not requiring. The obfuscated C code >contest kind of invented itself. > >

26 years, 5 months

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Dumpster stories!

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

>On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500, John B (dylanb(a)sympatico.ca) wrote: >> >> I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. >> That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic >> residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) >> not to enter one. So... were you someone's mother in another lifetime? ;-) There are already enough laws that try to protect stupid people from themselves, while putting a real damper on those of us who have brains enough to safely engage in "hazardous" activities. Relax! A number of years ago, they filmed part of the movie "Amerika" (which was apparently about the USA being taken over by Soviets or something; I've never seen it). They had a big sale at the end of the movie, held inside the former location of a big K-mart store. People went nuts buying all the clothes and props from the movie. That night, we drove by and noticed that there was a *bunch* of stuff in the dumpsters out back. Upon further investigation, the alley was found to be blocked off with a semi trailer parked across each end. As we were in a Fiat X-1/9 at the time, that wasn't a problem; we just drove under the truck. Found a bunch of electronic odds and ends (props from the "communication van" driven by the "resistance fighters", so I'm told). Popped the removable hard top off the Fiat and started lobbing stuff in. Also found a couple of cool little Northern Telecom telephone terminals; 9" mono screens with membrane telephone keypads in front and a handset on the side, and a miniature QWERTY chicklet keyboard in a little draw that pulls out from underneath, and serial ports on the back. About the time the car was getting full, the police arrived at the near end of the alley, probably summoned by the night watchman. Since they hadn't told us to stop or anything, we just hopped in the car, drove down the alley, under the semi trailer at the far end, and off down the street. Bet they're still scratching their heads over that one. :-) Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

26 years, 5 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

I tried hard to understand the socio-psychological dynamic that led up to the development of this pseudo-language, Ebonyx, in the minds of the west-coast (that's code for "californicated") education community's leaders. The place I arrived was at the conclusion that since the west-coast community was unable to teach the young Blacks to stay in their chairs on the few occasions on which they did attend class, they certainly couldn't teach them to read, speak, and write properly, so they were forced to classify what they, the young Blacks, did instead was another language. This was seriously muddled in the debate over whether the educators on the west coast should also be required to read, write, and speak properly. The notion of Ebonyx was their way to "throw-in-the-towel" (for those unfamiliar with U.S. boxing industry practice, this is a signal of surrender.) so they wouldn't themselves have to learn what they had shown they couldn't teach. If you ever spend any time in today's U.S. public schools, you'll be appalled at the low quality of speech which has become the norm among today's educators. When I was a pupil in the public schools, I always found my teachers able to speak better-than-average English. Today, that's no longer the case. They've become so wrapped up in being "friends" with the pupils, they've forgotten they need to set an example. I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and structure in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing, which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no point of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or an infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle and a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't make reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to go in order to teach those same characteristics in another language. It's a sad situation. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 7:44 AM Subject: Re: languages > > >On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >> >> I think that trend to continue as long as social activists try to promote >> gibberish as language, as the ebonics debacle. > >I'd be one to agree with that. > >> I have always done well with English, and that is my field, where I earned >> two degrees, and always regretted not getting another. I do recall, >> though, that studying Latin did make things seem much easier to me, if >> only because the language forced organised thought. I think German might >> function that way also. > >Some may laugh but it was learning Pascal after years of assembler, >focal and Basics that helped improve my english as it was the first time >I got to see structure at work. Up to that point verbs and nouns were >more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > >Allison > > >

26 years, 5 months

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Looking for an old journal article

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Doug Coward <mranalog(a)home.com> wrote: > FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS: > "Items available for disposal" page: > http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html >..."GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile: I've heard of these. It's the source of the name J.M.S. used in the B5 episode "Infection" (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/004.html). From the Lurker's Guide: Ikarra may be an Australian Aboriginal word. The Australian DSTO (Defence Sciences and Technology Organisation) developed the anti-submarine weapon "Ikara" in the 1950's. It is no longer in use in the Australian Navy, having been fired for the last time in 1990. The Brazilian Navy may still use a variation of it. Since the DSTO has a tradition of naming its products after warlike Aboriginal animals, it's plausible that the word refers to an animal. Not only "missile guidance computers", but pre-integrated-circuit missile guidance computers, depending on the exact vintage of what's in the Bristol Aero Collection. > The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to > the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic > items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable > rules." I'd better get back to work on my incorporation papers. > In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara: > Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a > 12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor > and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot. > The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built > Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980 > lbs at takeoff. I wonder how much of that is fuel and payload? 60%? 80%? How does U.S. Airways feel about a missile in checked baggage? :-) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 5 months

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Looking for an old journal article

by mranalog＠home.com

Hi, I've been using the used book search engines for the last year, searching for an old journal article. Afraid that I may never find the article, I decided to ask for help. I'm hoping that one of you living in the U.K. might have access to a library that has a good collection of back issues of "Memoirs and Proceedings of the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society". The article is "The Construction of a Model Differential Analyser" by D.R. Hartree and A. Porter in the July 1935 issue. If you think you can help me obtain a copy, contact me and let's work out a trade. FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS: I just thought I would mention this since some people on this list are interested in missle guidance computers. While searching for information on the 1911 Bristol Boxkite, I came across the web page for the Bristol Aero Collection, Cirencester, England. On their "Items available for disposal" page: http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html they list: "GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile: A number of complete missiles is available, without launcher." The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable rules." In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara: Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a 12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot. The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980 lbs at takeoff. Happy Hunting, --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

26 years, 5 months

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languages

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Not so! The subject is compound, i.eVERBS and NOUNS (the conjuction AND <makes it compound) the verb is WERE, and MORE is a predicate nominative, <i.e. a substantive (any word functioning as a NOUN) with a role of modifyin Major snippage... We still talking about that twisted pair of gramatical convolution? >> Up to that point verbs and nouns were >> more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > >This sentence no verb! :-) I only wrote the first one. Allison

26 years, 5 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're right in that the dictionary has the task of letting everyone know how the language IS spoken. It's also the schools' job to teach the kids in school how people DO speak, so they can do so well enough to hold their own, rather than having to be supported by the government. I believe this last part has been largely forgotten. Studies have shown that average graduates from high schools throughout the U.S. are quite incapable of reading a descriptive article and concluding even the basics about what was written. Unfortunately, it is not fair to expect these same graduates to write better than they can read and comprehend. There's why our system is failing. I can't hand a young college graduate a data book and expect him to figure out what a given device does and how it does it. Consequently, I can't use current graduates at all. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:22 PM Subject: Re: languages >> > Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording >> > phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know >> > the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? > >> Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to establish >> the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get funding >> to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to get >> funding, nothing more. > >:)) > >> > Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with >> > programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead >> > of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from >> > Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) >> *laugh* I'm not sure I'd compare any computer language to Goethe, but it's >> a good analogy... >:) > >> > and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? > >> I think Hans is making a bit of a joke here, but he's not far from the mark. >> A living language is not a static thing. It grows. It evolves. Parts are >> added and other parts dropped as the society that speaks it changes. Until >> recently (ie the last 20 years or so) English was taught in a very prescriptive >> way - x is the correct way to speak, where x is whatever dictionary and/or >> grammar system you embrace. > >No, I'm bloody serious (beside some humorous thing). In my opinion >C (and C++) is way down the ladder and as more as I think about I >find it more and more similar to the 'real' language thing discussed >in here. > >I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the >sense of degeneration. > >I often think about what happened - why are all other languages >out classed ? Some beauty(and use)full are almost forgotten. >What happened to Pascal, Modula or Smalltalk (not to talk about >ADA which I still consider the best design ever) ? > >There's only C (no, I don't recognize C++ or Java on their own). >And interestingly a still existing COBOL population. > >> However in the late 60s (things take time to >> filter into the education system) some language experts - notably Webster's >> Dictionary among them - began to realise that language *changes* over time. >> Websters dictionary embraced a descriptive philosophy - we're not in the >> business of telling you how you SHOULD speak, only how you DO speak. > >> One of the results of this was the formation of the American Heritage >> dictionary, which clung to the prescriptive philosophy. > >Well, to late over here - Standard German has equalized most German >languages and dialects. More than 100 years of Education did succeede. > >Anyway >H. > >-- >VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen >http://www.vintage.org/vcfe >http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

26 years, 5 months

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languages (Ebonics)

by edick＠idcomm.com

There are a few characteristics, not necessarily ones of which the Black community is proud, which certainly are traceable to one-time African tribal culture. A few moments with a stack of police blotters will show that there's a really noticeable tendency among Hispanics to "burgle" outside their own community, while it appears quite common that a Black man will steal his neighbor's TV-set, only to invite the victim and his family to come over to watch the game at his house. I've read/heard that this is traceable to ancient and still-practiced custom in various west African cultures. However, I'd not recommend doing that in THIS society. That tendency to ignore the realities of life within the present culture, both legal and ethnic, is purported to have arisen as a defense against burglary charges on more than one occasion. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson <wilson(a)dbit.dbit.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:13 PM Subject: Re: languages (Ebonics) >On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:55:38AM -0800, sjm wrote: >> BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic >> roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo, >> and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how >> "wrong" it sounds to a native Standard American English speaker >> (me included). In some ways, it actually allows much finer grained >> shades of meaning than SAE does. > >I'd love to see an example of this! What really catches my attention is >when someone begins a sentence with "know what I'm saying?", there's a lot >of stuff like that that's really annoyingly meaningless. Also I'm not >sure how much can really be traced to Africa, since a lot of this stuff >really seems to have only cropped up in the past few generations. Ahhhh, >what ever happened to Jive? Now *that* was fun to listen to! Ehh, I mean, >that was a thing to which it was fun to listen. Never mind... > >John Wilson >D Bit

26 years, 5 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

There's a reason for the old saw, "Those who can, do, while those who can't, teach." The typical teacher candidate graduated in the bottom third of his/her high school class, went to a clearly second-or-third-rate college and did poorly there. Because of the emphasis on "diversity" there has been a preference for minority candidates who relied on waivers of the customary standards to get into and through the usual educational programs, then relied on minority preferences to get past the hiring standards, and lastly, now rely on the system's unwillingness to take negative action agains a member of an ethnic minority to keep them on until they attain tenure, after which they'll do what they like, regardless. In my years on school committees I saw plenty of hoops being jumped-through by administration to meet their requirements without violating the various restrictions imposed on them by the various ethnic and cultural programs imposed from without. Unfortunately, as more of these administrators come >from minority cultures, other problems begin to surface. In the middle school attended by both my boys, there was a principal who used federal money as a justification to bring "troubled" (meaning criminal) youngsters >from other districts in with the "hope" of giving them another chance. Several of us on the steering committees tried to put an end to this, as it seemed to result in disproportionately high incident rates involving ethinically charged circumstances. I surely hope this is just evidence that the pendulum's swung too far in one direction. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Re: languages >Chris, > >Good explanation, you cleared identified a part of the problem but it's >not all the student's fault. An even worse problem is that the students are >taught by teachers that aren't any better educated than the students >they're teaching. We can thanks years of preferential college admissions >and hiring practices for that. Furthermore the quality of teachers as >declined steadily with the rise in power of the NEA and other teacher's >unions since most teacher's are more concerned about their income than in >teaching. Other factors such as the decision to teach in "native languages" >haven't helped either. Every part of the educational system is lowering >it's standards to accomodate the worst (insert your choice here; student, >teacher, school system, income, etc etc). And every part of the system is >failing to support the other parts. The whole educational system is in chaos. > > I wonder if the US is the only country that is having these kinds of >problems in it's "educational" system? > > Joe > >At 09:57 AM 3/9/00 -0800, Chris wrote: >>Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >>[Stuff deleted] >> >>> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >>> that should have been taught with English, >> >>[more stuff deleted] >> >>I recently had the sad task of judging science fair projects from three local >>high schools. It was pathetic. Since this thread is about language skills >>I'll ignore for the moment the more or less complete lack of understanding >>of the scientific method and the extensive use of crayons in constructing >>the presentations and focus on the stellar language skills that were almost >>uniformly present across all of the entries. >> >>The short form summary is that if I'd written in the fashion of these high >>school students when I was in second grade I'd have been taken out and shot. >>Certainly there were large collections of words, some of them polysyllabic, >>but in general they were not arranged into anything that was parsable as >>an english sentence. Written materials depended on spelling correctors >>to eliminate spelling errors, sometimes with frightening yet amusing >>consequences ("...our science fairy teacher..."). >> >>There were a few entries which were clever, well constructed, well executed >>and innovative. Talking with the instructors I learned that these were >>from the bright but bored students who twiddle their thumbs while their >>neanderthal classmates struggled with basic coursework (in California the >>instructional system is geared to address the needs of the lowest common >>denominator; resources are generally not available for exceptional >>students). The entry judged Best of Show was constructed by one such >>student in a few hours on the day immediately preceding the judging. >> >>> It's a sad situation. >> >>It's beyond sad. It's criminal. >> >>FWIW, California is now going to start imposing financial penalties upon >>high schools whose students do not perform at some minimal level. The >>problem, of course, is that the students are already lacking fundamental >>skills that they should have received at the elementary level, thus >>penalizing the high schools is not going to fix the problem. Rather, it >>will cause even more resources to be diverted to already unsalvageable >>students while penalizing those who actually have a chance to do something >>useful with their lives. >> >>*Grumble*, >>Chris >>-- >>Chris Kennedy >>chris(a)mainecoon.com >>http://www.mainecoon.com >>PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 >> >

26 years, 5 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's not what is going on here! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:57 PM Subject: Re: languages >> >> allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: >> > Up to that point verbs and nouns were >> > more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. >> >> This sentence no verb! :-) > >Erm. Hmm. You can construe that sentance to have a verb, but it doesn't >make any sense if you do. :) Verb, the word, has become a verb of late. >To verb another word, you make it into a verb. So if you verb verb (ugh) >you're saying your sentance doesn't verb. (double ugh). :) > >Now you've done it. You've got me playing word games. :) > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 5 months

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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

That assessment is quite correct! What's not so obvious, is that the fact that we have a special class of student, commonly known as "speakers of other languages" hence the term ESOL for Education for Speakers of Other Languages, is a federal-court-mandated effort to provide this somewhat nebulous group of pupils with an additional opprotunity to secure the education to which the constitution apparently entitles them. However, what's not so widely recognized is that this program has priority over mainstream classes. Consequently, as more kids' parents find a way to get their children so-classified, local school admistrators (most the principals) are forced to provide limited-size classes for the ESOL program. Since the mandate is not accompanied by any additional funding, the administrator has to take teachers from the mainstream classes and assign them to the ESOL program where class size is limited to 22 pupils per teacher rather than the more common 30-35 seen in mainstream classes. That's why so many people were so PI**ED about the "EBONYX" (as it was spelled in our local papers, though that doesn't make it correct, by any means) thing. This would have mandated that all users of that particular pseudo-language were entitled to smaller classes, i.e. more personal attention, than the mainstream. While I don't doubt for a moment that there might be potential for great benefit to those students qualifying for the smaller class-sizes, it's taking those resources from the already overstressed mainstream education program. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Re: languages >> Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording >> phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know >> the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? > >Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to establish >the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get funding >to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to get >funding, nothing more. > > >> >> And, Jim, for the Grammer ting, don't forget that English >> is a bastard based on (at least) 5 languages from 3 different >> language families (No Offense Ment). > >None taken. You're absolutely correct. English took much of its structure >from Norweigan, and much of its vocabulary from Norman French, and simplified >both. It picks up vocabulary from everywhere, and when that fails words are >simply made up. I'm thinking here of Scuba and Radar, wich both started out >as acronyms and are now ordinary nouns. > >*snip* > >> Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with >> programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead >> of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from >> Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) > >*laugh* I'm not sure I'd compare any computer language to Goethe, but it's >a good analogy... > > >> and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? >> >> Gruss >> H. > >I think Hans is making a bit of a joke here, but he's not far from the mark. >A living language is not a static thing. It grows. It evolves. Parts are >added and other parts dropped as the society that speaks it changes. Until >recently (ie the last 20 years or so) English was taught in a very prescriptive >way - x is the correct way to speak, where x is whatever dictionary and/or >grammar system you embrace. > >However in the late 60s (things take time to >filter into the education system) some language experts - notably Webster's >Dictionary among them - began to realise that language *changes* over time. >Websters dictionary embraced a descriptive philosophy - we're not in the >business of telling you how you SHOULD speak, only how you DO speak. > >One of the results of this was the formation of the American Heritage >dictionary, which clung to the prescriptive philosophy. > >Ultimately I think the descriptive folks are correct. While I agree with Dick >and others that as the English language is simplified it looses alot of its >elegance and beauty, I'd rather see that than the total stagnation that results >with rigid prescriptiveism. A great example of what happens to a language when >it is artificially prevented from changing is French. With the establishment >of the French Acadamy and the legislation against borrowings from other >languages, in a few hundred years French went from the language of diplomacy >to a linguistic backwater, populated with grotesque and awkward words created >to describe things where a borrowing had been previously used. > >None of this changes the fact that today's schools are doing a lousy job >teaching people to communicate. (In the US). One need only look at the web >to see this - US domains which are so cluttered and badly designed and where >the text is so obtuse and irrellivant that the entire page is useless abound. > >(Yes, in this graphical age, I think page layout should be taught alongside >some understanding of grammar and spelling). Schools are instead focusing on >self esteem building, instead of teaching and letting students develop self >esteem when they *succeed*. Obviously grinding a student's ego into the floor >every time they mess up is the wrong way to go about teaching anything, but >so is pushing self esteem above education. *sigh* If I had children, I would >definately feel ripped off by todays schools. > >Anyway, I've gone on much longer in this message than intended, but in addition >to hitting a nerve this thread also hit stuff I studied in college, so... :) > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 5 months

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languages

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- "Merle K. Peirce" <at258(a)osfn.org> wrote: > I do recall, though, that studying Latin did make things seem much > easier to me, if only because the language forced organised thought. Ditto on the Latin - 4 years in High School. I think in my case, since I had no decent formal training in English (my native language), learning Latin grammar produced an understanding of English grammar. I do know that learning Latin made it easier to learn Greek. I had an idea of what sorts of phrases and subordinate clauses exist, and so knew to ask how these concepts translated to Greek ("cum clauses", for example, or the many uses of infinitives) > ...I learned the Church Latin pronunciation, which annoys everyone else, to > my gratification... Ack! Heretic! :-) My Latin teacher told us a story of when _he_ went to out High School in the 1960's - they learned Church Latin and it was a supreme effort of will not to laugh when conjugating the present tense of the verb "scio", to know. For the confused reader at home, it goes... "scio, scis, scit, scimus, scistis, sciunt" and in Classical Latin C's are hard, giving us "skeeo, skiss, skit...". Church Latin uses a soft C here, resulting in "sheeo, shiss...". Try *that* in a room full of sophmores. -ethan P.S. - if I've messed up the full conjugation, my apologies; it's off the top of my head, 18 years later. The nugget of the story, however, is accurate. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 5 months

2
1
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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

Not so! The subject is compound, i.eVERBS and NOUNS (the conjuction AND makes it compound) the verb is WERE, and MORE is a predicate nominative, i.e. a substantive (any word functioning as a NOUN) with a role of modifying the subject. The preposition OF points to ABSTRACTION which modifies the predicate nominative. The past participle NEEDED modifies the term ABSTRACTION in its role as a modifier of MORE, which modifies the subjects. THAN compounds the modification by the preposition by providing a second object of the preposition OF, which further modifies the term ABSTRACTION by limiting it. Now, that's more detail than one normally needs to understand the lines in the daily paper's comics, but there are sentences, more likely to appear on the editorial page than in the sports section, which often deserve and too often require careful analysis prior to concluding one knows what's being said. You may disagree with that analysis, but it certainly does underscore that the quoted sentence is complete. It also serves as an example of the numerous devices about which current high-school graduates know nothing. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:14 PM Subject: Re: languages >allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote: >> Up to that point verbs and nouns were >> more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > >This sentence no verb! :-)

26 years, 5 months

1
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languages

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> projects with it, be able to word-process but not necessarily spell-check <> be able to run good educational software. I'm already biased towards a Ma <> Plus (and own one), but certainly ready for suggestions. NeXT? MicroVax <> 3100? Cost, hardware and software, is a factor, of course. Why only one box? Why not several each with it's attributes would induce a greater range of thinking. Also applying similar skills to different boxes teaches troubleshooting and similarity of use. The latter is funny as I had someone (an adult) today tell me their system had to have Word to write a memo as they didn't know how to use Write... Write is stripped down Word! Lazy! With the common classics like Apples, CPM crates and all you can get a lot of different things to investigate. If you can teach anything, teach them how to find out when the answer is not obvious or in the standard books. Learn how to use information sources, printed and electronic. Being able to figure it out is believe it or not a very valuable skill in this cookie cutter world. Allison

26 years, 5 months

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was :-( , now :-) Re: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-(

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 2:54 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-( >> >> I can't find my book on the M8256 (RX211) so I don't know if the switches >> are set right. >> >> I have a PDP-11/05 here that works fine and boots up RT11 or XXDP on an RX01 >> with an RX11. When I replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02 and >> try and boot RT11 the CPU hangs up at: >> >> 173546 , run light on. Requires a full reset to clear. >> >> I have tried other RX211s, RX02s, and cables and the same problem occurs. >> >> The disk is being accessed for a little while (4 or 5 "clicks") and dies.... > >A few quick things to check : > >1) You are trying to boot an RX02 version of RT11, not an RX01. While the >RX02 can read/write RX01 disks, the RX211 and RX11 need rather different >software to drive them, so an RX02 can't _boot_ a bootable RX01 disk. > I know. I was trying RX02 RT11v4. BL >2) You've got the DIP switch in the RX02 (on the upper, controller, >board) set correctly. I'm pretty sure that how to set this is on the web >somewhere, but if you can't find anything (and nobody else beats me to >it), I'll try to find the fine manual. > I guess so. The RX02s are from LSI systems. >3) The RX211 is a DMA (NPR) device. You just said the magic words! I have never been blessed with a RX211 before (always big drives or RX01s). Many thanks for saving me hours of going through boxes to find out it was a NPR device. Thanks again. <very happy PDP-11/05 systems now> john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >You need to cut the jumper between >pins CA1 and CB1 on the backplane of the slot where the RX211 is >installed. That's the most likely problem if you've just pulled an RX11 >and replaced it by an RX211. > >-tony > >

26 years, 5 months

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PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-(

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: John B. writes: > >I have a PDP-11/05... replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02... > To get to *real* basics: > > The RX11 is a programmed I/O device. The RX211 is (as usually used) a > DMA device. You'll probably have to remove the NPR continuity wire across > the slot when you put the RX211 in it, and ensure that this signal is > continuous up to that far too. I doubt you are short of double-height grant cards, but I have a wad of non-DEC ones because SRC used to ship our own with every Unibus COMBOARD. Let me know if you're interested. When I get my flatbed scanner back from loan, I'll add both of our designs to the "field guide". -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 5 months

1
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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're right, of course, Allison, but I love to bitch about the way the nation's schools are destroying our language and our future. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:07 AM Subject: Re: languages >An aside... > >I find this discussion interesting and agree with the demise of modern >language but, this is a great stretch from discussing classic computers. > >Of course if we drift into the structured language debate of the late 70s >we will all require asbestos/kevlar/ceramic britches. ;) > >Allison > >

26 years, 5 months

2
1
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PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-(

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> >I have a PDP-11/05 here that works fine and boots up RT11 or XXDP on an RX01 >with an RX11. When I replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02 and >try and boot RT11 the CPU hangs up at: > >173546 , run light on. Requires a full reset to clear. > >I have tried other RX211s, RX02s, and cables and the same problem occurs. To get to *real* basics: The RX11 is a programmed I/O device. The RX211 is (as usually used) a DMA device. You'll probably have to remove the NPR continuity wire across the slot when you put the RX211 in it, and ensure that this signal is continuous up to that far too. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 5 months

1
0
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PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-(

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

I can't find my book on the M8256 (RX211) so I don't know if the switches are set right. I have a PDP-11/05 here that works fine and boots up RT11 or XXDP on an RX01 with an RX11. When I replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02 and try and boot RT11 the CPU hangs up at: 173546 , run light on. Requires a full reset to clear. I have tried other RX211s, RX02s, and cables and the same problem occurs. The disk is being accessed for a little while (4 or 5 "clicks") and dies.... If anyone here has a quick "config" fix I would appreciate it otherwise I guess I will dive into the boxes of manuals/fiche later today. Current 11/05 config: Main CPU M9312 w DY rom RX211 with RX02 8K core ODT and passes diagnostics. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com

26 years, 5 months

2
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VCF Europa Update

by dastar＠siconic.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1944 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000306/e4449e6f/at…

26 years, 5 months

13
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AMD 1820-1701

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and <2645A's] <that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked <"processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic <with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume <a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks <to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. < Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A <installed---What do I have here?? The same thing with a HP "house number". The older cpus were often ceramic/gold until later and better plastics or cheaper grey or brown ceramic started to appear. Allison

26 years, 5 months

6
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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:18 AM Subject: Re: languages >*snip* > >> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >> that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and structure >> in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing, >> which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no point >> of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or an >> infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle and >> a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the >> teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages >> all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't make >> reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to go >> in order to teach those same characteristics in another language. >> >> It's a sad situation. >> >> Dick > >I agree with the fundamental premise of this post, but I have to disagree with >the example of grammar. See, classical grammer, what most of us DID learn in >high school, was actually lifted from latin grammar. It never fit English very >well. In the last 20 years or so there have arisen new systems of grammar >which understand a word order language like English far better than Latin >grammar, which was designed for a word-ending language where word order is >irrelevant, ever could. Of course, THESE grammars are not well taught either, >but the fact that a modern high school student doesn't know gerunds and present >participles may well be because that whole system of grammar is no longer >taught. It never was that useful to begin with. > First of all, you must consider that, unlike French and Spanish, English is not a Latin-derived language, but rather a Germaic language. It's true that English is a language that has developed over the centuries into one which does allow word order to effect sentence meaning, unlike most other modern languages. However, having seen MANY sentences written by college graduates to be lacking in subject or verb, or grossly misusing predicate nominatives or adjectives, I have to say that the BASIC STRUCTURE that was taught by simple tools like sentence diagrams (remember them?) tended to teach people who were taught that structure to write complete sentences. Along the way, it was taught that one shouldn't split infinitives, end sentences with prepositions, and so on. The lack of that basic structure is "out there" in the newspapers, magazines and, even worse, in the common speech observable in radio and television programs every day. I have to disagree with the notion that it's not important to know whether a word is a gerund or a participle. Knowing that they exist means knowing that there's a difference, hence, serves as an aid in using them correctly. > >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 5 months

1
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languages

by edick＠idcomm.com

Actually, I've observed the same thing here in Colorado, though the financial penalty for sub-par students hasn't caught on yet. I've tried to figure out whether there isn't a cultural bias among our seemingly increasing Hispanic population, comprising 43% of our student population. Hispanics are culturally biased not exactly against education, but perhaps against getting an education when you can be getting money instead. There's some hint of that, but it's certainly not going to be studied in these days of political-correctness, so it probably won't be fixed if it is a causal influence. Perhaps that's a factor in California as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chris Kennedy <chris(a)mainecoon.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:14 AM Subject: Re: languages >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >[Stuff deleted] > >> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >> that should have been taught with English, > >[more stuff deleted] > >I recently had the sad task of judging science fair projects from three local >high schools. It was pathetic. Since this thread is about language skills >I'll ignore for the moment the more or less complete lack of understanding >of the scientific method and the extensive use of crayons in constructing >the presentations and focus on the stellar language skills that were almost >uniformly present across all of the entries. > >The short form summary is that if I'd written in the fashion of these high >school students when I was in second grade I'd have been taken out and shot. >Certainly there were large collections of words, some of them polysyllabic, >but in general they were not arranged into anything that was parsable as >an english sentence. Written materials depended on spelling correctors >to eliminate spelling errors, sometimes with frightening yet amusing >consequences ("...our science fairy teacher..."). > >There were a few entries which were clever, well constructed, well executed >and innovative. Talking with the instructors I learned that these were >from the bright but bored students who twiddle their thumbs while their >neanderthal classmates struggled with basic coursework (in California the >instructional system is geared to address the needs of the lowest common >denominator; resources are generally not available for exceptional >students). The entry judged Best of Show was constructed by one such >student in a few hours on the day immediately preceding the judging. > >> It's a sad situation. > >It's beyond sad. It's criminal. > >FWIW, California is now going to start imposing financial penalties upon >high schools whose students do not perform at some minimal level. The >problem, of course, is that the students are already lacking fundamental >skills that they should have received at the elementary level, thus >penalizing the high schools is not going to fix the problem. Rather, it >will cause even more resources to be diverted to already unsalvageable >students while penalizing those who actually have a chance to do something >useful with their lives. > >*Grumble*, >Chris >-- >Chris Kennedy >chris(a)mainecoon.com >http://www.mainecoon.com >PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97

26 years, 5 months

1
0
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testing

by stevemas＠persys.com

testing 1, 2, 3 --Steve Mastrianni

26 years, 5 months

1
0
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languages

by ghldbrd＠ccp.com

Interesting dialog on languages . . . . I myself have barely mastered English, american style. Somewhere along the way I took three years of French in High School, the result being that my English grades shot through the roof. Seems learning a foreign language helps one master English grammar. Maybe the problem is that one can't speak correct English in the first place. As for the Morse code, I've talked to many people who's answer was "I don't think I can learn the code." It isn't a matter of skill -- five year old kids have learned Morse code. I call it a case of 'wanna'. If you wanna you can learn anything. But since the FCC deregulated the Amateur licencing structure, getting 5 wpm is fairly easy, if you wanna. Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP

26 years, 5 months

1
0
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AMD 1820-1701

by ip500＠roanoke.infi.net

Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and 2645A's] that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked "processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A installed---What do I have here?? Thanks, Craig

26 years, 5 months

7
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PDP-11/45 Board Issues

by robinm＠rpi.edu

OK, I think I've pretty much decided that it's best to give a shot at rebuilding the M8108. For one thing, it's going to be a lot cheaper. To this end, could someone email me the prints for this board (or otherwise direct me to a URL where they can be found)? > > > Mine has a printed label across the top of the box labelling the slots, > > > which says, on the slot containing the M8107, "If KT11C option [i.e. the > > > MMU] not present, use M8116 S J B in this slot." > > > > Is the M8116 a simple jumper (a la grant continuity card)? I think that's > > probably the best move to kludge one of those together, if it's simple > > enough. > > No, it's a hex height card with address buffer chips on it. The schematic > is not that complex, but the board is not just connections. OK, unless it's really simple, I guess that's out. > > Memory management is not all that important to me. > > It will be if you get any peripherals and want to run an OS. Granted, but I think that's a long way off.. :-( Thanks, Michael

26 years, 5 months

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PDP-11/45 Board Issues

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Michael Robinson <robinm(a)rpi.edu> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 11:07 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 Board Issues >OK, I think I've pretty much decided that it's best to give a shot at >rebuilding the M8108. For one thing, it's going to be a lot cheaper. To >this end, could someone email me the prints for this board (or otherwise >direct me to a URL where they can be found)? I haven't been following this list lately but.... I just set aside a set of 11/45 boards for Kevin McQuiggin here... if you can wait a couple of days, there is a strong chance I can come up with a set (or at least replace the bad boards) for you. Please contact me off the list. I have a PDP-11/45 with FPU running (just got the fast memory!).. nice mini to play on. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com

26 years, 5 months

2
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VCF Europa Update

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're quite right, Hans, people try to "get by" whenever they can. English as used in the U.S. is a special case, however. For the convenience of the ever-lower-educated personalities in the media, the functional vocabulary the part people routinely use ) has shrunk from about 100 words to somewhere near 35. That leads to contextual definition of those words, which, in turn, gives rise to comments such as "... it depends on what your definition of 'is' is ... " as used by our slippery chief executive. People still have all the same things to say. They just use fewer words with which to say them. This leads to a really poor communication process, and it's VERY pervasive, i.e. it shows up in all phases of life. Of course, it's wonderful for lawyers, since they get to collect money for arguing out what we meant when we entered into an agreement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 4:47 AM Subject: Re: VCF Europa Update >> It hasn't helped me. I took 5 years of college German and speak less than >> the average German 2 year old. Honestly, it's humiliating, because I'm >> still in the habit of telling people that I know some German...only to >> stumble on the most basic words and sentence structure. I think it would >> come back pretty quick, but I don't have the time (or energy) to study it >> on my own, and very little opportunity to use it in a practical setting >> (despite Hans' brave attempt to try to understand my gibberish). > >That's part of the deal - if you pretend to understand >my English, I'll do the same about your German... :)) > >No, serious, German isn't that hard to learn, millions >of kids over here are proof that it's easy enough to >be done even at toddlers age :)) > >Well, Now realy serious: All you missing is some practice >so come over for VCFe and help Sallam in his speech. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen >http://www.vintage.org/vcfe >http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

26 years, 5 months

1
0
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AMD 1820-1701

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Craig Smith <ip500(a)roanoke.infi.net> wrote: > Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and > 2645A's] > that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked > "processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic 2640 (and maybe 2644, I can't remember) terminals have 8008s, 2641/2645/2648 terminals have 8080s (on different processor boards of course). An 8080 would likely be in a 40-pin DIP (Dual In-line Package, meaning two rows of pins). An 8008 would be in a smaller DIP but I can't remember how small off the top of my head. > with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume > a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks 18xx-xxxx is an HP component part number (if you buy enough chips, you can get the manufacturer to stamp them with your part number too), and the 7xxx is probably a date code (two digits of year and two digits of week-within-year). > to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. > Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A > installed---What do I have here?? Some boards made with HP house-marked AMD parts, some boards made with Intel parts? -Frank McConnell

26 years, 5 months

2
1
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AMD 1820-1701

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On March 7, Frank McConnell wrote: > 2640 (and maybe 2644, I can't remember) terminals have 8008s, > 2641/2645/2648 terminals have 8080s (on different processor boards of > course). An 8080 would likely be in a 40-pin DIP (Dual In-line > Package, meaning two rows of pins). An 8008 would be in a smaller > DIP but I can't remember how small off the top of my head. It's an 18-pinner if I recall correctly. -Dave McGuire

26 years, 5 months

1
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VCF Europa Update

by edick＠idcomm.com

Don't feel bad about your inability to speak German after only a few years' formal education. Nowadays, American students aren't even taught enough about their own language, a version of English, that they can read a few paragraphs and understand what it was about, nor can they write more than a paragraph about a single subject, before the "stream of consciousnes" takes over and all purpose is lost. I have two boys in their first few years of "higher" education and, having met some of the people now entrusted with passing along an "education" to them and others, I find them sadly lacking. They speak badly, read little and fail miserably to express themselves succinctly and coherently in writing. Current generation textbooks are showing the decline of the spoken language here. Sadly, the average German 15-year old not only speaks better German than our average 35-year-old speaks english, but he speaks better English than that same 35-year-old. Fifteen years ago, the average American had sufficient command of English that he routinely used on the order of a hundred words to express himself. Today's average is closer to 35 words. No wonder nobody knows what's being said! If you're making an honest effort in Europe, people will put up with your deificiencies. If you expect them to speak your language, you're in for a hard time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)wfi-inc.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 9:00 PM Subject: Re: VCF Europa Update Christian, It hasn't helped me. I took 5 years of college German and speak less than the average German 2 year old. Honestly, it's humiliating, because I'm still in the habit of telling people that I know some German...only to stumble on the most basic words and sentence structure. I think it would come back pretty quick, but I don't have the time (or energy) to study it on my own, and very little opportunity to use it in a practical setting (despite Hans' brave attempt to try to understand my gibberish). I still have a large bookshelf full of German classics; someday, someday. Aaron > Servus Hans, > > I warned Sellam about this but he said he's willing to go ahead with it! > ;-) The cat's out of the bag now! I know well what it's like to try to > learn German and after about eight years of periodic, unofficial, random > self-teaching I can just about speak short simple sentences. If German was > still taught in the schools around here I would have attempted to get > tutoring would be much better I think. If he does in fact come to > understand spoken High German he'll get confused hearing the Bavarian > tongue though. I know! ;-) Heh heh heh . . . > > Bis sp?ter, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ >

26 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

PDP-11/45 Board Issues

by robinm＠rpi.edu

Hello all, My electronics club recently became the proud owner of a PDP-11/45. Unfortunately, it's not in the best of condition. One of the boards, an M8108 (apparently a memory-managment module) is damaged. Well, actually, it is split in two along the card fingers. After some careful inspection, I have determined that it's probably not possible to repair. Anyone know what will happen if I fire up the machine without this board? We have no peripherals, so we're basically interested in toggling in code and will be satisfied without an OS. If we exclude this card, do we need to toss a NPG card into that spot? Before anyone asks, no, we don't have the printsets. I think this machine is second-second hand, so the previous owner (RPI) didn't have the prints either. Much of what we know of this machine has been determined with a continuity checker... Michael Robinson robinm(a)rpi.edu RPI Electronics Club

26 years, 5 months

3
4
0 0

AMD 1820-1701

by edick＠idcomm.com

I can't tell you much about this but I've had countless HP boards with part numbers of 1820-something. I went to the trouble of getting a cross-reference for IBM part numbers when I was working on their stuff, (their numbers were 237-xxxx) but I've never had enough HP stuff to warrant the effort. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Craig Smith <ip500(a)roanoke.infi.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 6:39 PM Subject: AMD 1820-1701 >Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and >2645A's] >that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked >"processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic >with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume >a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks >to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. > Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A >installed---What do I have here?? > Thanks, Craig

26 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

Otrona Attache available

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Tom Jennings has an Otrona Attache, "not 8:16, plain CP/M, in great shape with one small exception, with manuals and lots of software." He's got it on eBay now but there's no action so far, so if it doesn't find a bidder he'll release it for shipping and handling from Tucson, AZ. Contact him at <tomj(a)wps.com>. - John

26 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

PDP-11/45 Board Issues

by robinm＠rpi.edu

OK, The M8108 is in *really* bad shape. As I said, it's split along the card fingers, which means that just about every line going to the bus is broken. It also has a few chips that have been shattered, both along the break and elsewhere on the board. I, for one, don't have the skill to fix it. > >It is possible to run an 11/45 without the MMU, but in that case you need > >a System Address Jumper (M8116 IIRC) that goes in place of one of the 2 > >MMU modules, the other MMU slot being empty. > > Mine has a printed label across the top of the box labelling the slots, > which says, on the slot containing the M8107, "If KT11C option [i.e. the > MMU] not present, use M8116 S J B in this slot." Is the M8116 a simple jumper (a la grant continuity card)? I think that's probably the best move to kludge one of those together, if it's simple enough. Memory management is not all that important to me. > I have CPU and MMU prints only (no manuals or FPU prints) which I am very > slowly scanning. Among the few fragments I have done so far is the M8108, > so it would be easy for me to provide that to you if you think it might > help. Kevin, I'd be interested to see the M8108 fragments. If you have it, I'd also be interested (probably moreso) in the M8116. Thanks, Michael

26 years, 5 months

2
1
0 0

PDP emulation & V7

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it <> immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long <> time since I tried it. <> < <I've seen this too but I got it going (late) last night. <I think it was with the E11 simulator and I set the <CPU to "70" (or maybe 45). It boots to the "#" prompt. <If you exit it starts timesharing. The root password is <"root". The username is root and the password is pdp. Just booted mine on real hardware (11/73 system). Allison

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation & V7

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 6, 16:43, Kirk Davis wrote: > > > V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it > > immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long > > time since I tried it. > > I've seen this too but I got it going (late) last night. > I think it was with the E11 simulator and I set the > CPU to "70" (or maybe 45). It boots to the "#" prompt. > If you exit it starts timesharing. Thanks, Kirk -- I'll try that. As soon as I can get roud the back of the 11, anyway :-) Meanwhile I'll just keep it running on the 11/23. > The root password is "root". Mine's not one of the images from PUPS, so it's not the same :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 5 months

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Update to RT-11v2 docs online

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

Hi all, Per requests, and to satisfy my own curiosity, I've posted PDF files of the RT-11 system reference manual alongside the tiff images. These contain the images with the text underneath (i.e. you actually view scans of the original manual but it's fully searchable). A little bigger than the straigt tiff images, but it's nice to be able to execute a find... I tried to do an OCR only version of it, which *looked* very nice. The problem was that processing an old manual, on yellowing paper, well, it wasn't too accurate when dealing with punctuation. Which kind of blew any chance of a hands-free OCR, since it was turning colons into t's and so on. After a few hours of hand-correcting through chapter 3, I gave up. Any other suggestions are welcome, thanks to all the good feedback so far... Cheers, Aaron Oh yeah, it's available at www.retrobytes.org

26 years, 5 months

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FW: DEC EQUIPMENT FOR SALE

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

I guess some people have problems adjusting to the idea that computers have no problems whatsoever with lower case these days. ;-) Found on Usenet. Reply directly to him if interested. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:24:19 -0500, in vmsnet.decus.lugs you wrote: >>From: "Chris Bracken" <sales(a)southeasterndata.com> >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.decus.lugs >>Subject: DEC EQUIPMENT FOR SALE >>Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:24:19 -0500 >>Organization: Access Orlando (407) 895-1200 >>Lines: 8 >>Message-ID: <8a104j$neb$1(a)news.ao.net> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn41.max4.ao.net >>X-Trace: news.ao.net 952370132 24011 208.243.146.107 (6 Mar 2000 19:15:32 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: usenet(a)news.ao.net >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Mar 2000 19:15:32 GMT >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >>Path: news.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!206.228.179.2!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-in-west1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.ao.net!not-for-mail >>Xref: news.jps.net vmsnet.decus.lugs:19 >> >>I HAVE FOR SALE A EXTENSIVE LIST OF DEC MAINFRAME,NETWORKING AND PRINTER >>EQUIPMENT THAT WAS RECENTLY DIENSTALLED FROM A WORKING ENVIROMENT AND IS IN >>VERY GOOD COSMETIC CONDITION. THE EQUIPMENT IS LOCATED IN ORLANDO,FLORIDA IF >>YOU WOULD LIKE TO RECEIVE A EQUIPMENT LIST PLEASE PROVIDE ME WITH YUR FAX #. >>THE COMPANY NAME IS SOUTHEASTERN DATA INC. LOCATED IN ORLANDO, FL. 32804 >>PHONE#-407-522-5075/FAX-407-522-5074----LET ME KNOW, THANKYOU. CHRIS >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it <immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long <time since I tried it. Ill boot mine and see. I have to do a boot foreign from RT-11 as apparently there is no boot on the pack. A copy of your mail as a reminder.... ;) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:19:15 GMT From: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) X-Beware: experimental sendmail.cf 940816.SGI.8.6.9/980207.PNT Message-Id: <9803170219.ZM17332(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: V7 startup" (Mar 16, 20:44) References: <199803170144.AA16350(a)world.std.com> Reply-To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Subject: Re: V7 startup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: R Hi, Allison. > >>>>>< @unix <<<<<<< > > THAT'S what I was trying to remember! > > Allison If you're running V7 on real hardware, could you do me a favour once you get it running, please? The normal boot sequence for V7 is to hardware boot the drive, which get the @ prompt, then type 'boot' which runs the 'boot' program, which has a ':' prompt, then specify the drive, partition, and kernel file: @boot boot :rl(0,0)unix Most systems then come up single-user, and you need to type CTRL-Z or CTRL-D to continue multi-user. That might involve also typing in the date/time, and often it's all in uppercase until the right tty driver is running. Lots of systems also do an icheck on the disks before actually starting -- this takes a while. In case you didn't know, to stop it you do # kill -1 1 which kills init and returns to single-user level; then you type # sync a couple of times to flush the disk buffers from memory to disk, and then you can halt it safely. What I want to know is, does that version respond to 'boot' and does it do the disk checks? ------------------------- Ok, it's doesn't boot from the pack so I need a RT-11 to act as primary boot to acess the device at some higher level. My 11/73 does know DL boot though. If I try to boot directly it says non-bootable. Invalid boot block I'd guess. Once I'm at the boot @ (looks just like odt!) either @unix or @boot boot :rl(0,0)unix Also works. I also have the advantage that I have RT-11 for my systems and if that runs it's a good head start as you know the hardware works. <It probably isn't memory, then. It's probably down to something (maybe a <driver) that checks for something like the presence of a register, finds i <on my 11/73, and makes an erroneous assumption. V7 predates the 11/73 by <quite a way, so that wouldn't be too surprising. The way I'm using it the assumption is that it's minimally 11/34 or better. Keep in mind the primary IO, DLV11, RL02 are all direct equivalent to the 11/34 and other unibus boards to the register level. Since it runs I must be doing something right. Allison

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 6, 9:01, CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> I tried swapping my M8186 (11/23) for M8192 (11/73) but it doesn't run. > >> Maybe I need to rebuild the kernel (I've got an original distribution, not > >> one of the images from PUPS), but perhaps it would work with more memory or > >> by swapping RLV11 for RLV12. > > >Cpu doesn't run or doesn't run V7? The image I have only wants some 256k > >of ram out of all teh installed ram. I get the impression it was > >configured for an 11/34 or similar and that is mostly a 11/23 save for the > >11/23 mmu can go to 22 bits. V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long time since I tried it. > The V6 and V7 images currently available have device drivers that > were built for Unibus systems. They expect a Unibus Map to be present > for accessing memory above 256Kbytes (many of the drivers were built to > always expect a Unibus map). The "safe" thing to do on a Q-bus system > (or an emulated Q-bus system, like Supnik's emulator) is to run with 256Kbytes > or less. It probably isn't memory, then. It's probably down to something (maybe a driver) that checks for something like the presence of a register, finds it on my 11/73, and makes an erroneous assumption. V7 predates the 11/73 by quite a way, so that wouldn't be too surprising. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 5 months

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old, old, old computer (fwd)

by vcf＠siconic.com

Here's what sounds like a Wang PC up for grabs. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: Wizzalbif(a)aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:05:14 EST From: Wizzalbif(a)aol.com To: donate(a)vintage.org Subject: old, old, old computer I have an old computer at home that was probably made in the early 80's. It was made by Wang, and has 64K memory. I have a CPU, a monitor, and a dot matrix printer. Unfortunately, I am in Birmingham, Alabama with no plans to visit California anytime soon. If you do not want my computer, can you hook me up with anyone around here that might? All information is appreciated. Thanks. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

26 years, 5 months

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Cromemco S-100 system. (Was: HUGE additions this last week!)

by netsurfer_x1＠hotmail.com

>Cromemco? (sp) S-100 system with manuals and software - 4 floppy >drives. I >know nothing about this unit other than it's heavy. It sounds like the system you have acquired is a Cromemco System 3. This (if I'm right) was the high-end model of Cromemco's original S-100 systems. It can run either the CP/M or C-DOS OS.This machine, as you've already found out, is quite heavy because the outer casing is 1/8" (!) thick! This thing could withstand a nuclear blast. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 5 months

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HUGE additions this last week!

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

Outside of the DEC warehouse stuff onroute I brought my uncle and aunt down with a 24' truck to the US to a prior DEC FE home and here is what was loaded up: DEC PDP -------------- 3 boxes of Straight PDP-8 manuals: maintenance, user, software and hardware, engineering, etc. a few "System Modules Books" Boxes of DECsystem 10 manuals many boxes of DEC manuals, prints, and paper tape software (really cool) Tri-data "File Cart" for the PDP-8 with 50 carts, boards, software , etc... TU56 tape drive parts and Astrotype DECtape units 60 trays of PDP-8, PDP-11 paper tape software 2 large boxes filled with DECTapes from PDP-8 and PDP-8 PDP-11 M8049 - many of them!!!!! :-) :-) :-) DRV-11J approx. 20 of them , probably more. TU45s PDP-11/05s PDP-11/03s PDP-11/35s PDP-11/40s RK07s TE16s Core memory systems (ME11, MM11, etc) RX02s AT least a hundred boxes of manuals Table top TU58 6 Decwriters S-100 --------- Altair 8800 , serial #80, all original MITS boards (15 boards), mostly rev 0, 6 4K RAM boards, 1 CPU, dual floppy controller (2 boards), PROM board, display board? serial/rs232 board, and others I can't identify yet. It came with 3 boxes of Manals, many early newsletters, engineering drawings, etc... and software from MITS. Dual Floppy 8" disk system. Amazingly, the 8800 is in mint condition, unmarked. I never really got into the 8800 hardware back then so I have no idea what some of the boards are... Cromemco? (sp) S-100 system with manuals and software - 4 floppy drives. I know nothing about this unit other than it's heavy. Victor/Vector? Graphics S-100 computer with dual external 5 1/4" floppies, books, etc.. I can't remember the manufacturer name but this board was used with an extender on an S100 system and has all the flip switches and lights to control the micro like an Altair 8800. It came with manuals, etc... HP ---- HP 1000 engineering, user, etc.. manuals HP 21MX system with papertape, mag tape, manuals, drawings, etc... Varian : (Al?) ------------------- Varian 620 user manuals and some others (about 7). Special thanks to Kevin Stumpf for finding emergency storage space. This load took up 400 FT^2. over 300 boxes of manuals, software and *many* PDP-11 unibus boards and 9 cabinets. There is still a few hundred boxes of manuals for old IBM, Burroughs prototype material left there for future pick up. A lot of hidden stuff in the load yet as we had *no* time to browse! This load was *very* difficult as it was located in a 2 story house with basement and garage :-( john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com

26 years, 5 months

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SWC0166 transistor (HP9100B ROM assy)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The original transistor has the following markings : < <Ti (Texas Instruments Logo) <SWC0166 HP/TI house number doesn't cross in any of my books and I have a pile of them(some very old). <6934A (Date code, I think). Most likely. <It's in a TO5 can, and is certainly NPN. There lie the next questions: SIlicone or GErmainium? (makes a difference) What is the collector to emitter voltage in circuit? What is the base/emitter voltage for the ON case and OFF case? How much current does it handle in circuit? Allison

26 years, 5 months

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Informer terminal

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- "McFadden, Mike" <mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu> wrote: > I came across two terminals that look like they are portable. Labeled > Informer model 207, I have an Informer portable terminal. I can't verify the model number because mine is in storage, but what _I_ have, emulates an IBM 3274 w/attached 3270. You can also daisy-chain several of these terminals together and only the first one acts as a terminal controller - the rest are dumb terminals. I got mine at the Dayton Hamvention about ten years ago when lots of them appeared at several booths simultaneously. It is _not_ an ASYNC ASCII terminal. It is _not_ VT100 compatible. It is a genuine IBM SNA PU Type 2. We used to compare its behavior on an HP Line Analyzer to our own SNA product. It helped us find a couple of bugs on our end during the BIND. Theoretically, you could aquire the Linux SNA package and attempt to use it there, but I know I'd have to have one compelling reason to try. If you happen to need to dial up a 4331 or 4381 Mainframe, *this* is the tool. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 5 months

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HP3421A temperature measurements

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 412 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000305/842db2ab/at…

26 years, 5 months

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Need RS6K help

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

Bill Pechter, quoting Peter Pachla: >> Hi, I've just gotten hold of an RS/6000 which appears to be a model 520 >> (7013?). >> >> Since the thing appears to be a server (POWERserver?), and thus has no >> display adapter, I need to get hold of at least one of the 10-pin to 25-pin >> serial port converter cables. >> >> Can anyone, preferably in the UK, help please? >> >> Also, does anyone know where I can track down a set of AIX 3.1.0 manuals - >> printed or electronic form? > Are you sure there's no video cable. The 7013's (5x0 models -- > 520/530/550/580/590) often had a video card for IBM fixed frequency > monitors--at least the one's I had did.) > > The serial ports weren't 10 pin on anythin IBM had that I saw. > They used 9 and 25 pin ports. I will say at the start that I have no experience with the 5XX (7013) - all this is based on the 320 and 375 machines (7012) we have at work. The serial ports on the 320s (can't remember about the 375) are indeed 10 pin. Physically it is the same as on the IBM 6150 but I haven't got around to testing the adaptor on my 6150 yet. If you want to try the expensive route, the part number printed on the adaptor I just pulled out of the draw is 00G0943, and you can try IBM. If you want a cheaper route, with luck we will be decommissioning and selling off the RS/6000 stuff within the next few months (only one piece of software left to be ported and that is almost finished) and I'll see what I can obtain for you. Video IIRC is a DA shell with three miniature coaxen in it, so I imagine Peter would have spotted it if it was there! The monitor is the IBM 6019. (My plan is: build one working 320 out of the two dead ones, and sell: a working 375, with monitor; a working 320, with monitor; a dead 320; a spare monitor. I have no idea how much the dead 320 will cost to repair, but if IBM are involved it is likely to be prohibitive, so perhaps I might get you the video card from the 320) BTW in case you wondered the keyboard is _not_ PS/2 compatible, but the mouse is and all the windows drivers think it's a Logitech (it's on my PC at the moment). HTH Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 5 months

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Informer terminal

by mmcfadden＠cmh.edu

I came across two terminals that look like they are portable. Labeled Informer model 207, the keyboard is in the cover of the display and clips to it with two metal clips. There is a fold down handle on the back and it is covered by a canvas dust cover. There are connectors for a phone connection and external keyboard on the back. It looks like some sort of troubleshooting terminal. I have searched the Web and only found 1 reference. Most of the incorrect references are to French terminals. Does anybody know anything more about them? Mike mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu

26 years, 5 months

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FS: Datanumerics, well a whole lot, really

by adavie＠taswegian.com

Hi to everyone. I'm no longer a member of the list, but some of you will remember me :)) For personal reasons, I'm currenlty offering my entire collection of collections for sale. I have some quite interesting vintage computers - including the beautiful Datanumerics DL-8A (a front-panel switch 8080 beast) and a homebrew S100 system with a Signetics 2650 processor emulating 8080. Also, rare home computers such as the Hanimex Pencil II. I am also selling my entire collection of Soviet Calculators (some 100 units), but only as a whole collection. I will be delighted to do photographs for any interested purchasers. Thanks for your interest - the URL is in my signature, below. Cheers A -- Andrew Davie adavie(a)taswegian.com or adavie(a)mad.scientist.com I'm selling my vintage computers, calculators, and video games... list at http://www.taswegian.com/TwoHeaded/forsale.html see my award-winning Museum of Soviet Calculators http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/soviet.html

26 years, 5 months

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info hunt on some S100 boards...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

I just aquired and IMS inc multiuser S100 system the suize of a coffe table. To restore it I need docs/info. It appears to be a complete system. It has 4 Commercial Dynamics Z80 slaves {SCPU MK4cr ISS 1} 1 IMS cpu card {A644} 1 IMS 64k dynamic ram card with parity. {c00464} 1 floppy card 8" 765/8257 based, S8000 floppy control {c00401} 1 WD controller for 8" wini (IMS) {A821 2562-1} 1 IMS I/O board, 2 serial using 8250, parallel using 8255 {A631} Anyone with docs for any of the boards I'd like to talk to them. Allison

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> I tried swapping my M8186 (11/23) for M8192 (11/73) but it doesn't run. >> Maybe I need to rebuild the kernel (I've got an original distribution, not >> one of the images from PUPS), but perhaps it would work with more memory or >> by swapping RLV11 for RLV12. >Cpu doesn't run or doesn't run V7? The image I have only wants some 256k >of ram out of all teh installed ram. I get the impression it was >configured for an 11/34 or similar and that is mostly a 11/23 save for the >11/23 mmu can go to 22 bits. The V6 and V7 images currently available have device drivers that were built for Unibus systems. They expect a Unibus Map to be present for accessing memory above 256Kbytes (many of the drivers were built to always expect a Unibus map). The "safe" thing to do on a Q-bus system (or an emulated Q-bus system, like Supnik's emulator) is to run with 256Kbytes or less. (Even that isn't perfectly safe, some of the tape drivers simply refuse to work with a Unibus map no matter how much/little memory is there.) (And yes, I know there are Q-bus systems with Unibus maps, but I'm ignoring those right now.) Tim.

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 5, 18:11, Allison J Parent wrote: > I forget if V7 needed I&D space or 2.11 meaning the 11/23 was not enough. > The 11/73 has the added I&D bits where 11/23 only has user registers and > MMU. BSD2.11 does need separate I&D, but V7 doesn't. If you don't have separate I&D, ISTR you need to build it for "small machine", and it runs a bit slower. > Got it onto a RL02 pack. It's the supnick emulator V7 binary image for > RL02 and it will run from RL02 IF the pack is a RL02k-DC (no defects). > The reason for that is the image is for a theoretical perfect disk and > it's bad block map is zero defects. > > The hardware is 11/73(KA11J-A), 2MB ram, DLV11-F, DLV11J, RLV21/RL02, > RXV12/RX02, RQDX3/RD52(x2)/RX33, TQK50. It's a very stuffed BA11N box > with a CD/CD (18 slots) backplane. I tried swapping my M8186 (11/23) for M8192 (11/73) but it doesn't run. Maybe I need to rebuild the kernel (I've got an original distribution, not one of the images from PUPS), but perhaps it would work with more memory or by swapping RLV11 for RLV12. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 5 months

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Richard Didday/Matrix Publishers/Dilithium Press?

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

While moving and sorting through the last of the books and magazines from our old house, I found my long-lost copy of "Finite State Fantasies", a semi-educational computer cartoon book that I bought in a Byte Shoppe about 25 years ago. It's kind of cool and funny, and I would like to scan it and put it up on my web site for others to enjoy, but I don't want to whiz in anyone's Cheerios in terms of copyrights. I have done some web searching, but couldn't find any current contact information for Richard Didday (is he still around?), Matrix Publications (whose name appears on the copyright statement), or Dilithium Press (who, based on my searches, seems to either have been the precursor or the successor of Matrix). Does anyone have any information on any of these folks, so I can try to get their permission to scan and share this strange book? -Bill Richman (bill_r(a)inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Cool! I've got an 11/23 that is very close to that config (swap the RXV11 <for a pair of LPV11's and you have my config), I think I might have to see LPV11s??? driving a LN01 or LP2x? ;) You need a RLV11 or RLV21 for a RL02 as that is what the V7 binary image is for. Allison

26 years, 5 months

2
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PDP emulation

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 5, 13:48, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Peter Turnbull wrote: > >it. Present setup is 11/23, 256KW, 2 x DLV11J, RLV11 + 2 x RL02, RXV11 > >workalike, IBV11, BDV11. > > > >Allison, can you remind me what you did to make it work on an 11/73? > > Cool! I've got an 11/23 that is very close to that config (swap the RXV11 > for a pair of LPV11's and you have my config), I think I might have to see > about getting it into a state where it will boot something and then see > about getting the SCO license. I'm pretty sure one of the binary images at PUPS is suitable for an 11/23 with RL02s. Warren has some notes on how to download an image and copy it to a real drive. > It would be nice to finally have a use for the system besides a rack shelf :^) that's exactly what one of my 11/73s was being used for when I first saw it :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> >V7 runs nice on E-11. Runs nice on my 11/73 too. <> > <> >Allison. <> <> REALLY?!?! What are the hardware requirements for V7? I thought they <>were a lot more restrictive than that. I'm assuming that it does not <>support MSCP disks. No MSCP, RL02. ;) I'd need to run 2.11 to get MSCP. <No, it doesn't, but it does run on any Q-bus machine with an MMU and <suitable disks. I've had it running on an 11/23 for the best part of ten I forget if V7 needed I&D space or 2.11 meaning the 11/23 was not enough. The 11/73 has the added I&D bits where 11/23 only has user registers and MMU. <years, and it was installed on the same machine almost as long before I go <it. Present setup is 11/23, 256KW, 2 x DLV11J, RLV11 + 2 x RL02, RXV11 <workalike, IBV11, BDV11. <Allison, can you remind me what you did to make it work on an 11/73? You and Tim Both helped get it going as I could not make at that time the pack needed. I don't run it often as Unix is less than really interesting to me but being an RL02 pack I can run it on a whim. Got it onto a RL02 pack. It's the supnick emulator V7 binary image for RL02 and it will run from RL02 IF the pack is a RL02k-DC (no defects). The reason for that is the image is for a theoretical perfect disk and it's bad block map is zero defects. The hardware is 11/73(KA11J-A), 2MB ram, DLV11-F, DLV11J, RLV21/RL02, RXV12/RX02, RQDX3/RD52(x2)/RX33, TQK50. It's a very stuffed BA11N box with a CD/CD (18 slots) backplane. Allison

26 years, 5 months

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KIM-1 OOOPS

by acierno＠mindspring.com

I forgot to ask if anyone know of a good assembler or cross-assembler for the KIM-1? mark ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2

26 years, 5 months

2
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PDP emulation

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 5, 10:56, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >V7 runs nice on E-11. Runs nice on my 11/73 too. > > > >Allison. > > REALLY?!?! What are the hardware requirements for V7? I thought they were > a lot more restrictive than that. I'm assuming that it does not support > MSCP disks. No, it doesn't, but it does run on any Q-bus machine with an MMU and suitable disks. I've had it running on an 11/23 for the best part of ten years, and it was installed on the same machine almost as long before I got it. Present setup is 11/23, 256KW, 2 x DLV11J, RLV11 + 2 x RL02, RXV11 workalike, IBV11, BDV11. Allison, can you remind me what you did to make it work on an 11/73? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 5 months

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KIM-1 OOOPS

by edick＠idcomm.com

You haven't visited www.6502.org yet, have you? Dick -----Original Message----- From: mark acierno <acierno(a)mindspring.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Sunday, March 05, 2000 12:18 PM Subject: KIM-1 OOOPS >I forgot to ask if anyone know of a good assembler or cross-assembler for >the KIM-1? > > >mark > >------- > >ICQ 40439199 >http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 > >

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Come on now, everyone on the list should know by now that I wouldn't even <think of the possibilty of running UNIX on a PDP-11 or a VAX :^) Unix is not my favorite but for PDP-11s, it's historical. ;) <Note, amazingly I'm not opposed to running UNIX on a PDP-11 like I am to <running it on VAXen. I just don't have the hardware to run the versions <I'd be most interested in running (and don't have the room for it anyway). V7 runs nice on E-11. Runs nice on my 11/73 too. Allison.

26 years, 5 months

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SWC0166 transistor (HP9100B ROM assy)

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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26 years, 5 months

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KIM-1

by edick＠idcomm.com

There's no telling what you'll find, but why not take a look at <www.6502.org> and see if there isn't a pointer you can use. Dick -----Original Message----- From: mark acierno <acierno(a)mindspring.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Sunday, March 05, 2000 11:28 AM Subject: KIM-1 >I just got a kim-1 (with KIMEX expansion board) was wondering if anyone >still had a copy of tiny basic ( for KIM) arround in any format (text, >tape, ect.) or knew where there was a copy on the web. > >I know this is a long shot! > > >mark > >------- > >ICQ 40439199 >http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 > >

26 years, 5 months

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KIM-1

by acierno＠mindspring.com

I just got a kim-1 (with KIMEX expansion board) was wondering if anyone still had a copy of tiny basic ( for KIM) arround in any format (text, tape, ect.) or knew where there was a copy on the web. I know this is a long shot! mark ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by bobstek＠ix.netcom.com

This may be old news to most. I have never been exposed to the PDP-11 series, but I know a lot of you are big fans. I accidently came across another RPI alum who offers his PDP emulator free for non-commercial use, so I though Id post some info about it: D Bit Developer of Ersatz-11, a software PDP-11 emulator for MS-DOS PCs giving emulation speed far faster than the PDP-11/93. The free demo version may be used for 30-day commercial evaluation, or unlimited personal/hobby use. Information about commercial versions is available here. Take a live RSX11M+ V4.5 system for a test drive here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- PDP-11 Emulation System Try out a live RSX11M+ V4.5 demo system Ersatz-11 emulates an entire PDP-11 system in software while running on low-cost PC hardware. It outperforms all of the hardware PDP-11 replacements on the market, outstripping them by a particularly wide margin in disk-intensive applications. Hardware PDP-11 replacements that use a Q-bus, Unibus, or ISA bus for I/O can't come close to Ersatz-11's disk performance because they are limited to the speed of the I/O bus for all disk transfers, regardless of actual disk (or disk cache) speed. Ersatz-11 avoids this bottleneck since it uses the PC's main memory and takes advantage of the tight disk-to-memory coupling in modern PCs. Ersatz-11 is by far the least expensive PDP-11 replacement product on the market. It quickly pays for itself in reduced maintenance, power, and climate control costs. Since its CPU is powered by the PC's processor and not a special-purpose processor card, there's no expensive custom hardware to maintain, and future upgrades to the PC's processor will make its PDP-11 emulation even faster. Orders for Ersatz-11 are usually shipped out the same day. Ersatz-11 features (Note: not all are available in Demo version) Processor emulation: PDP-11/23, PDP-11/24, PDP-11/34a, PDP-11/40, PDP-11/44, PDP-11/45, PDP-11/53, PDP-11/70, PDP-11/73, PDP-11/83, PDP-11/84, PDP-11/93, or PDP-11/94 CPU with individually selectable CPU features FP11/FPF11/FPJ11 floating point processor 4 MB main memory (248-400 KB in Demo and Lite versions) KW11L line clock (50/60 Hz, settable) Display register (using special hardware) Disk devices: UDA50,RQDX3/RAxx,RDxx,RXxx MSCP disks; number limited by available memory (not present in Demo version) RK11D/RK02,RK05 disk drives; up to 8 per controller RL11,RLV11,RLV12/RL01-02 disk drives; up to 4 per controller RK611/RK06-07 disk drives; up to 8 per controller RP11C/RP02,RP03 pack drives; up to 8 per controller RX211/RX02, RX11/RX01, or RXT11/RX01 dual 8" floppies RH11,RH70/RM02/03/05/80/RP04/05/06 removable pack disk drives; up to 8 per Massbus (full version only) RH11,RH70/RS03-04 fixed-head disk drives; up to 8 per Massbus RF11/RS11 fixed-head disk drives; up to 8 per controller RC11/RS64 fixed-head disk drives; up to 4 per controller Tape devices: KLESI,TQK50,TQK70/TU81,TKxx TMSCP tapes; number limited by available memory (not present in Demo version) RH11,RH70/TM03/TE16,TU45,TU77 magtape drives; up to 64 per Massbus TM11/TU10 magtape drives; up to 8 per controller TS11,TSU05,TSV05,M7454,TQK25/TS04,TS05,TU80,TK25 magtape drives; up to 8 per controller (most configurations use just one) TA11/TU60 dual cassette tape drive TC11/TU56 DECtape drives; up to 8 per controller PC11 paper tape reader/punch Communications devices: DL11 terminal ports; console and up to 31 others (16 total in Demo and Lite versions) DHQ11,DHU11,DHV11 serial multiplexers (full version only) DZ11,DZV11 serial multiplexers (full version only) LP11 printer ports; up to 4 DELUA Ethernet ports; up to 4 DEQNA Ethernet ports; up to 2 (not in Demo version) Other features: Versatile command language for controlling and monitoring emulation Configuration may be modified without halting or rebooting emulator Extensive logging facilities for capturing controller commands, terminal and line printer output, and Ethernet traffic Automatic configuration of floating CSR/vector addresses Automatic selection of controller types based on emulated CPU type (for devices such as the RL11/RLV12 whose Q-bus and Unibus versions have programming differences) PC hardware support Block devices: Disk images contained in DOS files Raw SCSI disk drives (full version only) Raw floppy drives (directly compatible with many types of DEC media) 8" drives may be attached using the D Bit FDADAP floppy disk adapter board. RAM disks in DPMI memory (full version only) Tape devices: Tape images contained in DOS files Raw SCSI tape drives (full version only) RAM tapes in DPMI memory (full version only) Character devices: (see comparison of multi-serial boards) Emulated VT100 on SVGA -- can flip between up to 12 virtual screens, VESA and Trident 132-column modes are supported; keyboard is fully customizable using scripts for each key, default keyscripts emulate VT100 keyboard including keypad COM ports (FIFOs supported if available, including 16C650A etc.) LPT ports Comtrol RocketPort/PCI multi-serial boards (full version only) Chase Research PCI-FAST multi-serial boards (full version only) Boca multi-serial boards (full version only) Digi AccelePort Xe (and older PC/Xe) multi-serial boards (full version only) Sound Blaster MIDI port Network devices: Any Ethernet interface with a packet driver NE2000 clones, ISA or PCI (built-in driver) Bus adapters:(note PCI vendor change) H & L Associates model UPG3600-PIO ISA/Unibus bridge (full version only, limited support now, full support in a future update) The Logical Company model BCI-2103 PCI/Q22 bridge (full version only) The Logical Company model BCI-2003 PCI/Unibus bridge (full version only) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- For more information contact info(a)dbit.com D Bit 11 Bank Street Troy, NY 12180 Voice: +1 (518) 271-6824 FAX: +1 (518) 272-3853 I have no idea if this is new - no idea if the product is good, bad or indifferent. Just thought somebody might be interested. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com

26 years, 5 months

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FW: S/36 help needed

by rhblake＠bigfoot.com

Please contact this person direct, not me. If he's just starting to get into classics he me join the list, else he may be interested int rading the stuff out or selling it.... ------------------------------------------- Rich shinebarger <richme1047(a)yahoo.com> wellsville, ny usa - Sunday, March 05, 2000 at 09:27:33 i need info on an old ibm system/34 it is operational and i have terminals for it but they wont connect to it. also i need to know how i can hook a DOS computer to a win95/98 network and i have an old iomega disk drive that takes 20meg 8 1/2 inch cassettes i need drivers or info on how to set it up

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Y2K compatible dir listing including the TSX+ time stamp, but doesn't <support all those innumerable switches yet), PIP.SAV and DUP.SAV would be <some work but not impossible at all, and also I've always meant to flesh <my puny FORTH mini-OS into something real. Cause what I'd really like to <see is something you can legally run on a real PDP-11 w/o any "hobbyist" <restrictions, since you never know when you might actually make some money <by accident with these old machines. Media conversion, consulting, whateve <For a lot of us it's a really fine line between job and hobby! One possibility is to not try to make DEC compatable utilites and develope a set of basic utilities so people could develope with and on fuzzball. Allison

26 years, 5 months

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New additions

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

Had a pretty good Saturday got the following items: 1. Mac Powerbook 170 with adapter needs a little work but was 29 dollars. 2. Sear Tele-Games Super Video Arcade game with 12 cartridges and 2 paddles. 3. 22- Atari 2600 cartridges, two were new to me. Gateway to Apshai and Haunted House. 4. A Grid 286 and 386 notebooks. 5. About 25 books and manuals for the collection. 6. New in the numeric keypad for the Apple II by The Keyboard Company. 7. Several new mouse pads for that part of the collection. 8. About 10 new cups to add to that part of my collection also. All in all it was a good day since I also picked up several other items that are 10 years old yet but were too good to pass up.

26 years, 5 months

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Disk-2-Disk for Amiga

by mark_k＠iname.com

Hi, Disk-2-Disk is an old commercial program for the Amiga by Central Coast Software. There is a demo of it on Aminet (misc/emu/D2D_Demo.lha). D2D can be used to read data from C64 disks in an unmodified Amiga 5.25" floppy drive. According to the documentation in the demo archive, reading from tracks 1-17 is really slow because the program must do some tricks to account for real 1541 drives having variable speed. (There is a program on Aminet, misc/emu/1541.lha, which can read 1541 disks but this requires that the Amiga drive's speed be reduced.) Does anyone have an original copy of Disk-2-Disk that they would be willing to sell? If you do, please contact me. Regards, -- Mark

26 years, 5 months

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PDP emulation

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<John has also been a list member for a few months :^) Downside of his is <you have to *OWN* a copy of the OS to use it legally. You can't use the <Hobbyist Emulator license. That only applies to Bob Supniks emulator. You can use it to run some of the unix binaries available fromthe PUPS archive. Though for $100 you can get a source license too. Allison

26 years, 5 months

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Need help with big DEC haul in Oakland

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

Here's the deal; I've been offered some PDP stuff in Oakland (details in forwarded message below) and am trying to negotiate pickup. I'd originally contacted the company searching for documentation on an obsolete product, and got much, much more... I'm in LA and the trip would be exceedingly difficult to arrange for myself. Anyone in the Bay Area who is interested in anything he's got and can give me a hand let me know; if worse comes to worse, I'll fly up and ship it back. Cheers, Aaron ---------------Original Forwarded Message Below--------------------- Hi, We have a fair amount of info on that board - I will see what I can dig up and let you know. Do you or your group have any interest in more LSI-11 related documents, boards (CPUs, serial boards, disk controllers, etc) ST506 drives (36-200 MB) etc? Also, a bunch of DEC blocks and PCBs (I think we still have those) for building backplanes. We have quite a bit of this stuff lying around and I haven't been abe to bring myself to throw it all away. New, of course, it was worth a lot, but now it isn't worth anything except to the knowledgeable. It would be a regular treasure trove. It's too bad - I have already gotten rid of the BA11 boxes and things like that, but there are lots of boards, drives, misc h/w, s/w, etc. Also, a really nice HP plotter, a Pacific Page plotter, and a few goodies like that. A bunch of 300w power supplies that are good for building machines up. Any - lots of surplus stuff that would be appreciated by a group that needs such things. If you want it, and would give it a good home (whatever that means), I would be delighted to give it to you. Maybe somebody could drive a pickup up here sometime and we can load it up. If you don't, but know someone who is a real DEC '11 freak, please pass this mail on. I hate the idea of giving it to the garbage man, but I need the space for other things. At 09:20 PM 3/3/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >I spoke with someone several months ago about possibly obtaining any >information I possibly could on one of your obsolete products, the VRG-Q11 >q-bus display card for the PDP-11. The card has a 10-pin berg header on >the top edge, to which was attached a single bnc-type connector. > >I'd be really interested in being able to do *something* with this card, >and any information you could find on it at all would be very much >appreciated, even if it was just a clue as to an appropriate display to >use with it. > >Representing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts group, I >must say the the particular machine that this card is in is one of our >most interesting pieces, and one of our biggest mysteries. It is a Plessey >clone that is made up of entirely (cpu excluded) non-DEC modules. Imagine >the fun we've had trying to dig up printsets for these cards! > >Either way, whether there's info available on it on some dusty shelf or >not, I'd really appreciate hearing from you. > >Regards, > >Aaron Finney > > >{=------------------------------------+------------------------------=} >| Aaron Finney | Voice: 626-857-5599 x314 | >| Manager, Information Systems | Fax: 626-857-0455 | >| Western Field Investigations, Inc | Email: A_Finney(a)wfi-inc.com | >{=------------------------------------+------------------------------=} > > > Victor Gold Peritek Corp 5550 Redwood Road Oakland, CA 94619 (510) 531-6500 FAX (510) 530-8563 email: victor(a)peritek.com

26 years, 5 months

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wanted; DECwriter

by mrbill＠mrbill.net

Anybody know where I can pick up a DECwriter? (central Texas area preferred...) -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill(a)mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 | | GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- O- M-- V- | | PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----------------------------------------------+

26 years, 5 months

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FS: NEC PC-8201A 'Personal Application' kit

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

This one made me chuckle when I rescued it. It's a "Personal Application Kit" for the NEC PC-8201A handheld computer. It consists of a single data cassette (yes, a cassette -- looks just like an audio cassette, too) that's still in unbroken shrink-wrap and a user's manual. It's vintage 1983, based on the copyright, and contains the following apps. Memory Calculator Text Formatter Investment Portfolio Linear Forecaster Loan Evaluation Schedule Keeper Character Definer Bank Backup Bank Transfer Bank Accessor (these latter three seem to have something to do with internal memory). Terminal Mode Selector Bar Code Reader Music Programs Tank Game Snake Game First person to offer me $8.20 ($5.00 + Priority Mail shipping) takes it. First-come, first-served, based on E-mail time/date stamp. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 5 months

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Mott in New Jersey?

by Anthony.Eros＠compaq.com

No, but I'm right next door in Delaware, so I'd sure like to meet him! -- Tony > ---------- > From: Mike Ford[SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 5:11 PM > To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org > Subject: Mott in New Jersey? > > In a conversation at a surplus joint yesterday someone told me about a guy > in New Jersey called "Mott" that is a big dealer in PDP11 type stuff. > Anybody know more? (just curious really) > >

26 years, 5 months

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Early Mac Clones

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Mark Gregory <mgregory(a)vantageresearch.com> wrote: > One notable emulator/clone they missed was the Amax by ReadySoft for the > Amiga. It was a slim grey box that contained sockets for the Mac 512K ROMs And available later as an internal board with the same ROM sockets, a pair of 34-pin connectors and external mini-DIN connectors. The 34-pin connectors were there to place the A-Max-II+ board between the floppy drive and the motherboard, allowing the Amiga's internal floppy to read/write 800K Mac disks. The mini-DIN connectors were for LocalTalk. I still use my A-3000 bought in 1990 to run M$ Word under A-Max and then print via LocalTalk to my HP LJ/4ML. It works great as a turbo B&W Mac. > I believe it was fairly successful - it went through at least 4 hardware > versions that I'm aware of, ending with the Amax IV. I only have the "A-Max II+". The IV had an upgraded PAL (security bit blown, unfortunately; I checked) and new software. > I was an early purchaser, and I always enjoyed showing off my Amiga with > DeluxePaint II open in one window, WordPerfect for DOS in another window (I > had an XT bridgeboard), and the Mac desktop in a third window. > The best of all worlds, almost. I had one way back, too. I used to use Mac System 3.5 with it. There's another Amiga-based Mac implementation: Shapeshifter. It is software only. I sent the author a Zilog data book so he could support the A-MaxII+ card (Z8530, just like the Mac and old Suns, a *great* serial chip if you knew about its register access time limitations). My favorite demonstration with Shapeshifter was to fire off System 7 on the Mac side, connect up to a nearby Mac server and mount a share, switch back to the Amiga side, open up AMosaic and browse the web while copying files on the Mac. For an added touch, since there is no Netscape browser for AmigaDOS, shut down the TCP/IP stack on the Amiga side, then launch Netscape for the Mac. Those who saw the demo were usually stunned. This was all on a 25Mhz 68030 w/18Mb RAM (16Mb "FAST", 2Mb "CHIP" (kinda like video RAM but more versatile)) Most recently, I took a CD of several hundred Apple QuickTake 150 pictures that I shot over several months in Antarctica. My extensive research showed that there was no way with UNIX or Windows to convert these files to any other format. They are "Quicktime Compressed PICTs". The PBM utilities can parse them, but they get to the meat of the picture and declare that there is an unknown tag and skip the picture data. Anyway, I needed a Mac running the QuickTake 150 extensions to interpret these 1200 pictures. My fastest real Mac was a Mac SE/30. Running Picture Convert, it was 20-30 seconds to load an image and save it as a compressed TIFF; fortunately, there's a batch mode. Some of the pictures had developed bit rot, 10 in all. I couldn't just fire it off and go to bed; I had to supervise the batch. I loaded the stuff all up on to a 4Gb SCSI disk, hung it off my A4000 (25Mhz 68040) and ran ShapeShifter. It was now more like 5 seconds per picture, thus, my fastest Mac was really an Amiga. Last month when I picked up the MacIIci for $5, I passed on a Quadra 605 for $25 because it had no Ethernet and was only a 25Mhz 68040. I figured I already had that much and there was no reason to clutter up with one more box. I think, eventually, when the University surpluses something faster, I'll upgrade, but for now, the Amiga reigns supreme amongst my Mac collection. For me, it wasn't just being able to run Mac programs that was great; it was running them in a networked environment that was really awesome. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 5 months

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Stone Knives and Bear Skins

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

If anyone has a .GIF or .JPG of Spock in _The City on the Edge of Forever_ constructing a "primitive mnemonic memory device" from what he terms as "stone knives and bear skins", I'd love to have that to put on my reverse-engineering web page. None of my reverse-engineering aids yet involve a Jacob's ladder or a 3-foot-long breadboard (back when they were really wood!) filled with glowing tubes, but the idea is so appealing that I might try :-). I suspect that for many of us who grew up watching Star Trek, *nothing* is as cool as Spock or Scotty working on a circuit that's throwing sparks. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 5 months

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Early Mac Clones

by owad＠applefritter.com

>One interesting thing about the Outbound, IIRC, was that not only >was it introduced before the Portable came out, but it was way >better than the Portable. So much better that Apple, who >apparently hadn't quite agreed to license the rom's, gave them a >choice: either you give us your computer, or we sue the pants off of >you and we'll get it anyway. > >The Outbound then became the PowerBook. Might as well let >someone else do your R&D for you..... That story is new to me, and rather contradicts what I've heard. The Outbounds were completely legal, and I don't believe Apple ever attempted to sue them. Outbound was still around when the Powerbooks came out, and from what I've read, its the _competition_ that drove them out of business. With Apple making cost-effective laptops, it was no longer economical to buy a clone and Mac ROMs. The Outbound Notebook uses IDE hard drives and camcorder batteries and really doesn't come across at all like the Powerbook 1xx. You can find additional pictures and information at: http://www.applefritter.com/macclones/outbound/laptop/ http://www.applefritter.com/macclones/outbound/notebook/ And information on Mac clones in general at: http://www.applefritter.com/macclones/ Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ---------------------<http://www.applefritter.com/>---------------------

26 years, 5 months

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How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Stone Knives and Bear Skins

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>This looks like it could be quite helpful in demysifying a decoder. >However, not all devices have negative-going enables and it leaves a gap >there. In a PAL it would be just as easy to use to create a decoder that >uses positive enables, e.g. as found on 6821's and the like. This isn't >common but I've run into it just in the last couple of weeks. Thanks, the next edition of "part A" will note that if the PAL output is the other polarity, you want to invert it before using it to gate the oscillator. >On most of the "old" bipolar PALs, pin 11 was used as the global output >enable, since most of the 16 and 20 input 20 and 24-pin PALs were capable of >generating tristate outputs on every macrocell. The easy way to test for >these is to use a weak pullup, driven by a single driver, together with an >equally weak pull-down resistor array. This can be the same one if your >resistor is on the order of 20K. When your device-under-test is disabled, >it should follow the signal driving the resistors. Monitoring this requires >you use no TTL in the monitoring circuit, since its inputs source current >and will drive up an output. Tri-stated outputs will be covered in an addendum at some point. I think I've been pretty plain that *my* first priority was reverse-engineering some address decoder PAL's, so I didn't have to worry about this the first time around. >One other thing that could stand to be circumvented is that the 'LS93 is a >ripple counter which, with PAL speeds as high as they are, could generate >internal glitches long enough set or clear a latch (normally implemented as >a combinatorial loop in an 'L8 or the like). True. I've noticed no such ripple glitches in my breadboarded circuits with 5 LS93's, but I'm certain you're right and that at the nanosecond level that they're there. >That might warrant the use of a synchronous counter at least in newly built >devices. For a synchronous counter I like the 'LS590 because it's an 8-bit >counter and has an extra internal register to which the count can be Good recommendation, but the LS590 isn't quite as available as the 74LS93. Ready availability of parts is vital to the "stone knives and bearskins" mindset I'm adopting here. >Also, for newly built devices, it's about as easy as anything to use a CMOS >Schmidt trigger, e.g. 74HC132 as an oscillator. You need merely put about a >1 MEG pot in feedback across the device, with inputs tied together to form >an inverter, and hang a capacitor, say, 0.01 or 0.1, or whatever else is >handy, and then tweak he pot to set the frequency. That way you don't have >to admit you have used a 555. Again in my neck of the woods 555's are more available, certainly there are lots of other ways to make clock pulses too. Many of the deglitching concerns of yours will be addressed with Part B, which discusses a simple computer interface for scanning. The computer simply waits a few hundred nanoseconds while between sending a clock pulse and looking at the PAL output. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 5 months

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Update to Cipher Docs

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

Due to a few requests, I've posted PDF (Adobe Acrobat) files along side the TIFF files for the Cipher F880 docs. Enjoy! Aaron

26 years, 5 months

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Stone Knives and Bear Skins

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Psssst... http://kcohn.simplenet.com/alidarjarok/originalseries/thecityontheedgeoffore ver/index2.html >If anyone has a .GIF or .JPG of Spock in _The City on the Edge of >Forever_ constructing a "primitive mnemonic memory device" from what >he terms as "stone knives and bear skins", I'd love to have that >to put on my reverse-engineering web page. > >None of my reverse-engineering aids yet involve a Jacob's ladder or >a 3-foot-long breadboard (back when they were really wood!) filled with >glowing tubes, but the idea is so appealing that I might try :-). > >I suspect that for many of us who grew up watching Star Trek, *nothing* >is as cool as Spock or Scotty working on a circuit that's throwing >sparks. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > Bill Richman http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

26 years, 5 months

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RE Paxton - Anything heavy need to go to CA today from PDX

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Hi; I made connections. We arranging a rescue of a good IBM 3880 & 3350. They are going to CA today by truck. Does anyone in the PDX area have anything heavy that needs to go to CA. There is room on the truck. It is in Seattle at the moment. Thanks. Paxton

26 years, 5 months

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teletype photos wanted

by eric＠brouhaha.com

Someone recently emailed asking me for help identifying a teletype, but unfortunately didn't supply any useful information. I thought maybe I could find some photos online, but ask.com and google didn't turn up anything. Has anyone seen an online collection of photos? I'm sure there are some good ASR-33 photos somewhere, but ideally it would be nice to find photos of other models as well. Thanks! Eric

26 years, 5 months

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Early Mac Clones

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)wfi-inc.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Last month when I picked up the MacIIci for $5... > > There's a guy at TRW sometimes with MacII's for $5...as-is, obviously. > I'd be happy to pick one up for you, if you're interested at all. I > grabbed one a few months ago that had an 8*24GC card and an Asante NIC in > it. All said and done, $20 landed me a IIfx (40mhz/68030) that does > 1280x1024 in 16bit mode. Thanks, but no need. My $5 IIci was similarly equipped. Even though it's a tad slower than a IIfx, I prefer the IIci because it uses ordinary 30-pin SIMMs (I pulled out the 8Mb and dropped in 32Mb for playing with my pictures in their native enviroment in preparation for cutting some Mac HFS CD-ROMs for long-term backup). Another bit of fun is that I'm using a Linux box as an Appleshare File Server. It even mounts and shares HFS CD-ROMs. No magic - just the netatalk package, follow the directions and share away! -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 5 months

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How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Stone Knives and Bear Skins

by edick＠idcomm.com

This looks like it could be quite helpful in demysifying a decoder. However, not all devices have negative-going enables and it leaves a gap there. In a PAL it would be just as easy to use to create a decoder that uses positive enables, e.g. as found on 6821's and the like. This isn't common but I've run into it just in the last couple of weeks. On most of the "old" bipolar PALs, pin 11 was used as the global output enable, since most of the 16 and 20 input 20 and 24-pin PALs were capable of generating tristate outputs on every macrocell. The easy way to test for these is to use a weak pullup, driven by a single driver, together with an equally weak pull-down resistor array. This can be the same one if your resistor is on the order of 20K. When your device-under-test is disabled, it should follow the signal driving the resistors. Monitoring this requires you use no TTL in the monitoring circuit, since its inputs source current and will drive up an output. One other thing that could stand to be circumvented is that the 'LS93 is a ripple counter which, with PAL speeds as high as they are, could generate internal glitches long enough set or clear a latch (normally implemented as a combinatorial loop in an 'L8 or the like). That might warrant the use of a synchronous counter at least in newly built devices. For a synchronous counter I like the 'LS590 because it's an 8-bit counter and has an extra internal register to which the count can be transferred in parallel, thereby eliminating risk of all but the shortest output glitches. If you concatenate, say, three of these, their output registers can be clocked from the complement of the counter clock. That way they are out of phase with the count clock, hence will not generate internal races which could result in incorrectly latched data. Also, for newly built devices, it's about as easy as anything to use a CMOS Schmidt trigger, e.g. 74HC132 as an oscillator. You need merely put about a 1 MEG pot in feedback across the device, with inputs tied together to form an inverter, and hang a capacitor, say, 0.01 or 0.1, or whatever else is handy, and then tweak he pot to set the frequency. That way you don't have to admit you have used a 555. These measures should result in less wiring effort for the cases where a new gadget is being built. Just my $.02's worth . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: CLASSICCMP(a)classiccmp.org <CLASSICCMP(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 10:12 AM Subject: How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Stone Knives and Bear Skins >Here's part A of my promised document on reverse engineering programmable >logic devices. I suspect that it's too technically complex for about 49% >of the audience, too technically simplistic for 50% of the audience, and >right on target for only about 1% of the audience. Well, that's how >the dice fall! > >I'm sure that my circuit-design techniques will be viciously attacked here >too. My emphasis was on using commonly available parts, and even >though I happened to use my time-tested favorites, I'm sure some folks will >despise me because I happened to stoop as low as using a 555 in a circuit. >Please take into account that I know that the hardware I'm using here >is primitive (thus the "stone knives and bear skins" in the title) and >that I'm very much aiming at circuits that others will learn from and >adapt for their own uses. > >Soon I'll publish part B, computer-assisted scanning, after I get that >written up. That will be followed by part C, determining logic equations, >and part D, reconstructing an equivalent fuse map. These documents, >as they're revised, will be available over the web at > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/reverse-engineer/ > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > >How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using >Nothing but Stone Knives and Bear Skins. > >Revision 0.1 / 3-Mar-2000 >Tim Shoppa, shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > > INTRODUCTION > >Computer collectors often come across programmable logic devices >(bipolar PROMs, PALs, GALs, etc.) in their hardware. They may want >knowledge of the device to improve, customize, or modify it, they may >want to know what it is doing purely out of curiosity, or they might >want to simply be able to replace device in the future in case of >hardware failure. As the original manufacturer of the equipment has >almost always disavowed all support and knowledge of the programmed >devices, here I tell how you can determine the function of the device, >even if it has had (for example) a security fuse blown. > > ASSUMPTIONS > >Here I assume the following: > >1. The reader of this document has at least a little bit of >familiarity with electronics - enough to wire up simple logic circuits >on solderless breadboards, and use a logic probe or multimeter, and >find pin 1 on an IC. Those who aren't familiar with electronics should >start elsewhere for the very basics - I strongly recommend Don Lancaster's >_TTL Cookbook_ and Horowitz and Hill's _The Art of Electronics_. > >2. The device to be reverse-engineered is easily removed from its >circuit for testing. Very often, bipolar PROM's and many PAL's >are already socketed for easy removal. While it is undoubtedly possible >to apply the techniques I describe here to in-circuit testing, >there are complications of in-circuit testing that I'm not ready to >discuss in general. > >3. The device to be reverse-engineered doesn't have any internal "state". >Again, the principles discussed here can also be used with, for example, >registered PAL's, but interpreting the results and ensuring that all internal >states are exercised is not discussed here. > >4. Here I also assume that device being reverse-engineered doesn't have >any tri-stated outputs. The techniques discussed here *do* allow for devices >which have pins that are fuse-programmable for input only or output only. > > STEP 1: DETERMININING DEVICE POWER CONNECTIONS > >For many programmable devices (especially PALs and GALs, and many >bipolar PROMs) the Vcc and Ground power connections follow the >"standard" TTL conventions - i.e. for a 14 pin device, Vcc is at >pin 14, ground is at pin 7. For a 20 pin device, Vcc is at pin 20, >ground is at pin 10. usw. > >Not all programmable devices follow these conventions. Usually some >simple testing with an ohmmeter, checking for connection to +5V and >Ground at some known IC or connector on the circuit board, will reveal the >actual connections. > >It's vitally important that you are sure about the Vcc and ground connections. >IC's don't like having power applied backwards across them. Seeing as >how you've already decided that the part in question is worth reverse >engineering - probably because it's irreplacable - it's wise to be very >careful about this phase. > >OK, now that we know which pins are Vcc and ground, put the device on >your favorite solderless breadboard and apply power. Be sure to bypass >Vcc to ground near the device with an appropriate bypass capacitor >(say, 0.001 to 0.01 uF). > > STEP 2: DETERMINING INS AND OUTS > >If you've got a good logic probe - one that can distinguish a high >from a low from an open circuit - this stage is easy. Just use the >logic probe to test each unknown pin - if it's definitely high or low, >then it's an output. If it's open circuit or high impedance, it's probably >an input. > >My logic probe is a $7.99 device I bought at a local electronics store >many years ago. It detects high, low, and open circuits, and also has >a pulse stretcher for making very brief output pulses visible. >I recommend that anyone doing anything even remotely >related to digital electronics have such a tool. But for those who don't >have such a tool, you can use a milliameter to do the equivalent thing. >Attach one end of a milliameter to Vcc through a 1K resistor, and scan >through all the unknown pins on the device with the other end of the >milliameter. If you see a current of 3-5 mA, you've found an output >which is low. Now attach one end of the milliameter to ground with >a 1K resistor, and scan through the remaining unknown pins with the other >end of the milliameter. If you see a current of 2-5 mA on any pin, you've >found an output which is high. Any remaining pins that didn't show >appreciable current flow through either pass with the milliameter is >now known to be an input. > > STEP 3: SCAN THROUGH ALL THE INPUTS > >OK, now we fall back on one of my favorite methods of all: Brute Force. >Say we started out with a 24-pin device, and found two of the pins to be >Vcc and Ground, and found three other pins which tested to be outputs. >That leaves 19 pins as inputs. There are 2^19, or about half a million, >possible input patterns to this device. That might sound like a lot, but >it really isn't - by using our friend, the 74LS93, to scan through the >inputs we can scan through this in under a second if we want. > >The 74LS93 is a 4-bit binary counter. We're going to chain as many >as necessary together (in the example above, 5 74LS93's gives us a >20-bit counter, enough to scan through 2^20 or a million input states) >to scan our device under test. I bought 5 74LS93's at a local electronic >store in a 5-unit "Jim-Pak" for under $3.00. > >Each 74LS93 stage is wired together according to the following >schematic: > Qa Qd Clk Qc Qd > Out Out Out Out Out > ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ > | | | | | > | | | | | > /----------------* *----/ | | > | | | | | > | Clk | | | | > | in | | Gnd | | > | ^ | | ^ | | > | | | | | | | > | | | | | | | > | --------------------------------------- > | | 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | ) 74LS93 | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | > | --------------------------------------- > | | | | | > | | | | | > \------/ \----* v > | Vcc > v > RESET > IN > >Note that the 74LS93 doesn't follow the TTL convention of putting >ground in the lower right and Vcc on the upper left! Again, we're >dealing with clocked logic here, so to prevent output changes from making >power supply glitches that feed into nearby stages it's good practice >to bypass Vcc to ground near each IC with a bypass capacitor. > >To chain the above counters together, run clock out from the first >74LS93 to clock in on the second 74LS93, clock out from the second >74LS93 to clock in on the third 74LS93, etc. > >The "RESET IN" connection to each counting stage should be tied low >for normal counting, and momentarily tied high to reset all the counters. >I tied all the reset ins together on my solderless breadboard and >hooked them to ground for normal operation. To reset the counters, >I move the wire to Vcc briefly and back. > > STEP 4: NON-COMPUTER ASSISTED SCANNING > >OK, now we tie Qa-Qd from each counting stage to "input" pins on the >device to be scanned. I also like to watch the most significant counting >bit cycle, so I hook it (through a 1K or so resistor) to a LED whose >anode is hooked to +5V. And we also need a clock to step the counters >through all the possible patterns. I used a 555 (again, a part that >ought to be available everywhere) to make a simple oscillator: > > Gnd > ^ > | > | C1 > Vcc _____ > ^ _____ > | | > *-- /-- *-----------------\ > | \ | \ | Gnd | > | /R | /R | ^ | > | \1 | \2 | | C2 | > | / | / | _____ | > | ---* ---* _____ | > | | | | | > | | | | | > /-----------------------------\ | > | 8 7 6 5 | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > ) 555 | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | 1 2 3 4 | | > \-----------------------------/ | > | | | | | > | | | | | > v | | v | > Gnd | v Vcc | > | Clk | > | Out | > | | > \-----------------------/ > > >C2 is a 0.01 uF capacitor to bypass the threshold divider to ground. >It's non-critical, and the circuit will probably work without it. > >The resistor and capacitor values are noncritical; I happened to >use R1=R2=220 ohms, and C1=0.047 uF, to get a clock rate of somewhere >around 30 kHz for initial testing. Making C ten times smaller will up >the clock rate by a factor of ten; making it ten times larger will slow down >the clock rate by a factor of ten. The clock rate you choose will depend >on how large of a space you have to scan. > >OK, now feed Clk Out from the 555 to Clk In on the first 74LS93 stage. >With a logic probe, you'll see high-frequency pulses coming out of the >first stages of the counter, and on the last stages you'll see the pulse >rate divided down by however many stages of divide-by-2 you have wired in. >If you've wired a LED to the most significant bit, you'll see it cycle >on-off-on as you go through all the possible binary output patterns. > >Now move the logic probe to an output of the programmable device. With >any luck, you'll see output pulses here flashing in a repeating cycle >that coincides with the MSB LED hooked to the last counter stage. > > STEP 5: DETERMINING WHICH INPUTS GIVE > INTERESTING OUTPUTS > >OK, now suppose that our logic probe has told us that the output from our >PAL under test is "high" almost all the time, but goes low only a few times >per input cycle. If the PAL was used as an address decoder - as many of >the ones I deal with are used - then this is a very likely case. > >So to find the input that causes the output to go low, we gate the >clock signal from the 555 with the PAL output through a NAND gate. >When the PAL output goes low, the clock pulses will no longer be applied >to the counter, and the counters will stop at the input which caused >the PAL output to go low. > > (1/4 of a 74LS00 NAND) > > |------- > Clk out from 555 ---------------| ) > | )O------- Clk in to first 74LS93 > Out from PAL ---------------| ) > |------- > >When the counters stop, just use a logic probe to read off the logic >states that produce the interesting "input" state. > >To continue scanning, momentarily lift the "out from PAL" signal from the >74LS00. This input will float high, and the counters will start scanning again. >If you suspect that there might be other "PAL output low" combinations, >it may be worthwhile to slow down or stop the 555 clock signal while >you momentarily lift the "out from PAL" signal. For this purpose, >I keep a largish electrolytic around to plug in parallel across the the >capacitor that sets the 555 time constant. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 >

26 years, 5 months

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Contact info for Paxton?

by chris＠mainecoon.com

[Sorry for blasting the list with this, but I've got a logistical nightmare that I'm trying to solve in the next few hours] If anyone knows how to contact Paxton in an expedient fashion (i.e., on the phone) I'd appreciate it if they could do so and tell him to check his mail -- I've just received a call from the trucking company that's supposed to be collecting the 3880 and 3350 that he dug up; their some four hours away and looking for information on where they're supposed to collect the stuff. Again, my apologies for broadcasting this, but I'm kinda desperate just now... -- Chris Kennedy chris(a)mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97

26 years, 5 months

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How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Stone Knives and Bear Skins

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

Here's part A of my promised document on reverse engineering programmable logic devices. I suspect that it's too technically complex for about 49% of the audience, too technically simplistic for 50% of the audience, and right on target for only about 1% of the audience. Well, that's how the dice fall! I'm sure that my circuit-design techniques will be viciously attacked here too. My emphasis was on using commonly available parts, and even though I happened to use my time-tested favorites, I'm sure some folks will despise me because I happened to stoop as low as using a 555 in a circuit. Please take into account that I know that the hardware I'm using here is primitive (thus the "stone knives and bear skins" in the title) and that I'm very much aiming at circuits that others will learn from and adapt for their own uses. Soon I'll publish part B, computer-assisted scanning, after I get that written up. That will be followed by part C, determining logic equations, and part D, reconstructing an equivalent fuse map. These documents, as they're revised, will be available over the web at http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/reverse-engineer/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Nothing but Stone Knives and Bear Skins. Revision 0.1 / 3-Mar-2000 Tim Shoppa, shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com INTRODUCTION Computer collectors often come across programmable logic devices (bipolar PROMs, PALs, GALs, etc.) in their hardware. They may want knowledge of the device to improve, customize, or modify it, they may want to know what it is doing purely out of curiosity, or they might want to simply be able to replace device in the future in case of hardware failure. As the original manufacturer of the equipment has almost always disavowed all support and knowledge of the programmed devices, here I tell how you can determine the function of the device, even if it has had (for example) a security fuse blown. ASSUMPTIONS Here I assume the following: 1. The reader of this document has at least a little bit of familiarity with electronics - enough to wire up simple logic circuits on solderless breadboards, and use a logic probe or multimeter, and find pin 1 on an IC. Those who aren't familiar with electronics should start elsewhere for the very basics - I strongly recommend Don Lancaster's _TTL Cookbook_ and Horowitz and Hill's _The Art of Electronics_. 2. The device to be reverse-engineered is easily removed from its circuit for testing. Very often, bipolar PROM's and many PAL's are already socketed for easy removal. While it is undoubtedly possible to apply the techniques I describe here to in-circuit testing, there are complications of in-circuit testing that I'm not ready to discuss in general. 3. The device to be reverse-engineered doesn't have any internal "state". Again, the principles discussed here can also be used with, for example, registered PAL's, but interpreting the results and ensuring that all internal states are exercised is not discussed here. 4. Here I also assume that device being reverse-engineered doesn't have any tri-stated outputs. The techniques discussed here *do* allow for devices which have pins that are fuse-programmable for input only or output only. STEP 1: DETERMININING DEVICE POWER CONNECTIONS For many programmable devices (especially PALs and GALs, and many bipolar PROMs) the Vcc and Ground power connections follow the "standard" TTL conventions - i.e. for a 14 pin device, Vcc is at pin 14, ground is at pin 7. For a 20 pin device, Vcc is at pin 20, ground is at pin 10. usw. Not all programmable devices follow these conventions. Usually some simple testing with an ohmmeter, checking for connection to +5V and Ground at some known IC or connector on the circuit board, will reveal the actual connections. It's vitally important that you are sure about the Vcc and ground connections. IC's don't like having power applied backwards across them. Seeing as how you've already decided that the part in question is worth reverse engineering - probably because it's irreplacable - it's wise to be very careful about this phase. OK, now that we know which pins are Vcc and ground, put the device on your favorite solderless breadboard and apply power. Be sure to bypass Vcc to ground near the device with an appropriate bypass capacitor (say, 0.001 to 0.01 uF). STEP 2: DETERMINING INS AND OUTS If you've got a good logic probe - one that can distinguish a high >from a low from an open circuit - this stage is easy. Just use the logic probe to test each unknown pin - if it's definitely high or low, then it's an output. If it's open circuit or high impedance, it's probably an input. My logic probe is a $7.99 device I bought at a local electronics store many years ago. It detects high, low, and open circuits, and also has a pulse stretcher for making very brief output pulses visible. I recommend that anyone doing anything even remotely related to digital electronics have such a tool. But for those who don't have such a tool, you can use a milliameter to do the equivalent thing. Attach one end of a milliameter to Vcc through a 1K resistor, and scan through all the unknown pins on the device with the other end of the milliameter. If you see a current of 3-5 mA, you've found an output which is low. Now attach one end of the milliameter to ground with a 1K resistor, and scan through the remaining unknown pins with the other end of the milliameter. If you see a current of 2-5 mA on any pin, you've found an output which is high. Any remaining pins that didn't show appreciable current flow through either pass with the milliameter is now known to be an input. STEP 3: SCAN THROUGH ALL THE INPUTS OK, now we fall back on one of my favorite methods of all: Brute Force. Say we started out with a 24-pin device, and found two of the pins to be Vcc and Ground, and found three other pins which tested to be outputs. That leaves 19 pins as inputs. There are 2^19, or about half a million, possible input patterns to this device. That might sound like a lot, but it really isn't - by using our friend, the 74LS93, to scan through the inputs we can scan through this in under a second if we want. The 74LS93 is a 4-bit binary counter. We're going to chain as many as necessary together (in the example above, 5 74LS93's gives us a 20-bit counter, enough to scan through 2^20 or a million input states) to scan our device under test. I bought 5 74LS93's at a local electronic store in a 5-unit "Jim-Pak" for under $3.00. Each 74LS93 stage is wired together according to the following schematic: Qa Qd Clk Qc Qd Out Out Out Out Out ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ | | | | | | | | | | /----------------* *----/ | | | | | | | | Clk | | | | | in | | Gnd | | | ^ | | ^ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | --------------------------------------- | | 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ) 74LS93 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | | --------------------------------------- | | | | | | | | | | \------/ \----* v | Vcc v RESET IN Note that the 74LS93 doesn't follow the TTL convention of putting ground in the lower right and Vcc on the upper left! Again, we're dealing with clocked logic here, so to prevent output changes from making power supply glitches that feed into nearby stages it's good practice to bypass Vcc to ground near each IC with a bypass capacitor. To chain the above counters together, run clock out from the first 74LS93 to clock in on the second 74LS93, clock out from the second 74LS93 to clock in on the third 74LS93, etc. The "RESET IN" connection to each counting stage should be tied low for normal counting, and momentarily tied high to reset all the counters. I tied all the reset ins together on my solderless breadboard and hooked them to ground for normal operation. To reset the counters, I move the wire to Vcc briefly and back. STEP 4: NON-COMPUTER ASSISTED SCANNING OK, now we tie Qa-Qd from each counting stage to "input" pins on the device to be scanned. I also like to watch the most significant counting bit cycle, so I hook it (through a 1K or so resistor) to a LED whose anode is hooked to +5V. And we also need a clock to step the counters through all the possible patterns. I used a 555 (again, a part that ought to be available everywhere) to make a simple oscillator: Gnd ^ | | C1 Vcc _____ ^ _____ | | *-- /-- *-----------------\ | \ | \ | Gnd | | /R | /R | ^ | | \1 | \2 | | C2 | | / | / | _____ | | ---* ---* _____ | | | | | | | | | | | /-----------------------------\ | | 8 7 6 5 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ) 555 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 2 3 4 | | \-----------------------------/ | | | | | | | | | | | v | | v | Gnd | v Vcc | | Clk | | Out | | | \-----------------------/ C2 is a 0.01 uF capacitor to bypass the threshold divider to ground. It's non-critical, and the circuit will probably work without it. The resistor and capacitor values are noncritical; I happened to use R1=R2=220 ohms, and C1=0.047 uF, to get a clock rate of somewhere around 30 kHz for initial testing. Making C ten times smaller will up the clock rate by a factor of ten; making it ten times larger will slow down the clock rate by a factor of ten. The clock rate you choose will depend on how large of a space you have to scan. OK, now feed Clk Out from the 555 to Clk In on the first 74LS93 stage. With a logic probe, you'll see high-frequency pulses coming out of the first stages of the counter, and on the last stages you'll see the pulse rate divided down by however many stages of divide-by-2 you have wired in. If you've wired a LED to the most significant bit, you'll see it cycle on-off-on as you go through all the possible binary output patterns. Now move the logic probe to an output of the programmable device. With any luck, you'll see output pulses here flashing in a repeating cycle that coincides with the MSB LED hooked to the last counter stage. STEP 5: DETERMINING WHICH INPUTS GIVE INTERESTING OUTPUTS OK, now suppose that our logic probe has told us that the output from our PAL under test is "high" almost all the time, but goes low only a few times per input cycle. If the PAL was used as an address decoder - as many of the ones I deal with are used - then this is a very likely case. So to find the input that causes the output to go low, we gate the clock signal from the 555 with the PAL output through a NAND gate. When the PAL output goes low, the clock pulses will no longer be applied to the counter, and the counters will stop at the input which caused the PAL output to go low. (1/4 of a 74LS00 NAND) |------- Clk out from 555 ---------------| ) | )O------- Clk in to first 74LS93 Out from PAL ---------------| ) |------- When the counters stop, just use a logic probe to read off the logic states that produce the interesting "input" state. To continue scanning, momentarily lift the "out from PAL" signal from the 74LS00. This input will float high, and the counters will start scanning again. If you suspect that there might be other "PAL output low" combinations, it may be worthwhile to slow down or stop the 555 clock signal while you momentarily lift the "out from PAL" signal. For this purpose, I keep a largish electrolytic around to plug in parallel across the the capacitor that sets the 555 time constant. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 5 months

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PDP-11/55s avail

by oliv555＠arrl.net

Got a message at work about four 11/55s available due to an upgrade. These are not freebies, in fact they are asking some big $$$ and come with the expensive Fastbus bipolar memory. I did not get permission to repost so if your site has need for these contact me off-list and I will provide the contact info. Nick

26 years, 5 months

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Early Mac Clones

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

While trying to dig up some info on some Mac hardware, I ran across the following web page of early mac clones (over 10 years old). Some interesting stuff there. http://lowendmac.net/firstclones.shtml Unitron Mac512, circa 1985 McMobile, 1986-89 Outbound Laptop, Portable, 1989-91 Atari ST & Magic Sac Colby WalkMac, circa 1989 Dynamac, 1988-89 Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 5 months

2
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decayed capstan in Archive QIC

by edick＠idcomm.com

Tough it can require some disassembly, another trick might be to apply 'SILASTIC' to the metal post which supports the roller and to which it's fastened. It takes a bit more patience, but less force, and, once cured, the 'SILASTIC' can be worked with a DREMEL tool to reduce its diameter or to shape it as needed. I made a couple of these in a lathe and ground them true and flat with a toolpost grinder. You can even make a capstan that way, since the stuff is really quite hard when cured, yet more forgiving than other materials often used in these drives. Silastic is not particularly prone to creep or abrade and it's quite inert, chemically. If the temperature varies much, there will be a bit of dimensional change, so try to measure it when it's at nominally room temperature. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Technoid(a)cheta.net <Technoid(a)cheta.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:15 PM Subject: Re: decayed capstan in Archive QIC >I fixed my qic tape drive this way: > >Open the drive and scrape away the goo that used to be what I called the >drive bogy from the shaft it is on. > >Find a roller from a printer. I used an output roller from my Epson >Actionprinter 3250. The inside diameter is MUCH smaller than the drive's >driveshaft. Don't worry. Cut the length of the replacement roller to the >correct length or it will cause the drive to bind and that is not good. > >Take a ballpoint pen of the kind you can remove the business end from. I >used a cheap, non retractable bic. I streached the roller over the body >of the pen using the nose of the pen as a starter beacuse the diameter of >the roller is so tiny. Once you get the roller past the removable end and >it is fully on the body of the pen, remove the nose from the pen. > >Clean the drive's driveshaft with alcohol or fingernail polish remover to >remove any traces of the old gooey roller. Fingernail polish remover is >great stuff for dissolving the rubber goo but remember that they put stuff >in it to make it 'good for you' like vitamin E. Clean the shaft >thoroughly with alcohol after useing the remover or if you are more >organized than I am, you will have some ACETONE around which is the same >thing without the gook added. > >Place the now blunt end of the pen against the face of the driveshaft and >slide the streached roller onto the shaft. Once it is on, check to make >sure it is of the correct width so as not to contact the case of the tape >or the tape its'self. it should only contact the drive bogey on the tape >when the tape is inserted in the drive. > >You are done and the roller will last at least months as mine has if not >for years. > >Good luck. This took me about two hours to conceive of and accomplish and >my Data General 6311 tape drive has had many many happy hours of >shoeshining tapes without fail since. My drive is a bit larger than most >of the little qic (DC2000 type) drives but I was scoping those drives for >a replacement roller and noticed that the bogeys are about the same size >on all of them. > >Technoid Mutant at your service > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jeffrey S. Worley >Technical Services >Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. >1979B Hendersonville Road >Asheville, NC 28803 >828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days >828-687-9284 - 24hr fax >Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? >Technoid(a)Cheta.net >----------------------------------------------------------- >

26 years, 5 months

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All Cipher F880 Docs online

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

Ok, I got the rest of these done today (schematics and engineering drawings). I experimented with many combos of resolution/bit-depth, and the best quality with a managable size ended up being 300dpi/8-bit greyscale/PDF format/JPEG compression. I think they average around 3megs each for 11" x 17" pages. This was the only format that would pick up things like component numbers on schematics/etc. Everything is available at www.retrobytes.org. BTW, if anyone has any suggestions on a better format for these, I'd be happy to try something else! But until then, the quality looks great to me... Cheers, Aaron

26 years, 5 months

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Reverse-engineering for the computer collector

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 2, 16:19, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I've recently put some effort into reverse engineering several > PAL's and other (slightly) more complex programmable logic devices > that have had their security fuse blown. Would folks here be > interested in a general summary of the methods, pointers to > tools and hardware, etc? I certainly would -- I have a couple of small PALs to make backups of, and whilst I could design some gubbins to read them, this would save me some time and effort. And of course give me the incentive to get off my butt and do something about them :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 5 months

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Reverse-engineering for the computer collector

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

I've recently put some effort into reverse engineering several PAL's and other (slightly) more complex programmable logic devices that have had their security fuse blown. Would folks here be interested in a general summary of the methods, pointers to tools and hardware, etc? This *isn't* rocket science, and it isn't putting the device in the output end of a particle accelerator either :-). What I've done here so far involves simple scanning circuits constructed from common-as-dirt parts, and software to process the results of the scans. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 5 months

3
2
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teletype photos wanted

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>ASCII models (realize that hams weren't allowed to use ASCII over the >air until sometime in the 1980's). Before anyone corrects me, I now realize that I should've said "US hams" :-) Tim.

26 years, 5 months

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teletype photos wanted

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>But it would still be nice to find a collection of photos of teletypes. >And for that matter, Flexowriters, Creeds, DECwriters, etc. The ARRL used to have a book that dealt with RTTY equipment. I believe the title was something along the lines of "Special Communications Techniques for the Radio Amateur". The 1960's and 1970's editions of this book had good info on the various Teletype and Creed machines, specifically on the Baudot models, and also some information on the ASCII models (realize that hams weren't allowed to use ASCII over the air until sometime in the 1980's). The pictures weren't top-notch (they were generally pretty poor halftones) but there were some. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 5 months

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Reverse-engineering for the computer collector

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, I'd certainly be interested in seeing what you've done. I've put some effort into this sort of thing as well, though I've done it with the printer port on an ad-hoc basis alone. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: CLASSICCMP(a)classiccmp.org <CLASSICCMP(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 2:31 PM Subject: Reverse-engineering for the computer collector >I've recently put some effort into reverse engineering several >PAL's and other (slightly) more complex programmable logic devices >that have had their security fuse blown. Would folks here be >interested in a general summary of the methods, pointers to >tools and hardware, etc? > >This *isn't* rocket science, and it isn't putting the device in the >output end of a particle accelerator either :-). What I've done >here so far involves simple scanning circuits constructed from >common-as-dirt parts, and software to process the results of the scans. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 5 months

1
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Announcing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts Group!

by af-list＠wfi-inc.com

Hello listers, I am very proud to announce that I have fulfilled one of my goals for the new year, which was the creation of a local enthusiasts group dedicated to restoring and preserving classic technology. Presenting... The San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts! Please visit us at: http://www.retrobytes.org Since this is mostly my effort at this time, much of the immediate content is directly copied from my personal site (pinout collection, hacks, repair tips, scans of documentation). But I, and our few charter members, are looking forward to being able to provide both a valuable online resource to the classic computer collecting community and a base of contact and fellowship for our local (southern california) collectors/enthusiasts. I just wanted to also say thank you to the members of this list for helping me develop a hobby that has been not only educational, but extremely rewarding and fun to boot. I owe much to you all and deeply appreciate the willingness to freely share knowledge and advice that defines this group. Cheers, Aaron

26 years, 5 months

4
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INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed

by wrm＠ccii.co.za

>I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin >ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on >them. Can anyone give me a clue? ICL 7600/7601 Commutating Auto-Zero (CAZ) Operational Amplifier Now you know as much as I do :-) Apparently its two op-amps and a bunch of switches, and you switch between the two amps, the inactive one being auto-zeroed while the active one is working. Or something. Beats me :-) Wouter

26 years, 5 months

2
1
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old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics

by allisonp＠world.std.com

To drag this in a different direction since the LISP discussion brought a few memory frags to the surface... Forth, LISP, PostScript and a few others I'll leave others to name were all similar in that they were stack oriented languages. I never worked with them much save for Postscript (it's core is Forth to me). Now, I vaguely remember a series of articles in Kilobaud, Dr Dobbs or maybe Byte on constructing your own forth like language in the early 80s. Anyone remember these? Are there copies? Allison

26 years, 5 months

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Early Mac Clones

by mgregory＠vantageresearch.com

One notable emulator/clone they missed was the Amax by ReadySoft for the Amiga. It was a slim grey box that contained sockets for the Mac 512K ROMs (not included) and connected to the Amiga's parallel port (IIRC). It also had a Mac floppy drive connector on the box, so you could attach Mac drives. The early versions were very finicky about the Mac drives that were used. Early 400K drives didn't work, and non-Apple 800K drives didn't work either. When running, it could use all of the Amiga drives and common peripherals (printers, modems, etc.) I believe it was fairly successful - it went through at least 4 hardware versions that I'm aware of, ending with the Amax IV. I was an early purchaser, and I always enjoyed showing off my Amiga with DeluxePaint II open in one window, WordPerfect for DOS in another window (I had an XT bridgeboard), and the Mac desktop in a third window. The best of all worlds, almost. Cheers, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:45 PM Subject: Early Mac Clones >While trying to dig up some info on some Mac hardware, I ran across the >following web page of early mac clones (over 10 years old). Some >interesting stuff there. > >http://lowendmac.net/firstclones.shtml >Unitron Mac512, circa 1985 >McMobile, 1986-89 >Outbound Laptop, Portable, 1989-91 >Atari ST & Magic Sac >Colby WalkMac, circa 1989 >Dynamac, 1988-89 > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | >

26 years, 5 months

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