- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older part s

by Antonio.Carlini＠riverstonenet.com

> >Wget. > > I thought you did not like wget. > Regardless of whether he likes it or not, since you have to get past the initial form where you type your search query, there is no simple way to download their whole database. I believe that they used to make some CDs available (presumably for a fee). It might be easier to get hold of those (assuming the old scanned manuals and datasheets are on there!). Antonio

23 years, 5 months

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Radio Shack abandons components

by jpl15＠panix.com

I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. Experimenters: Time to stock up! Cheers John

23 years, 5 months

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Mac Restore CDs/Manuals

by r_beaudry＠hotmail.com

Hello all.... I recently picked up an LC 630 DOS Compatible Macintosh. Nice machine, with SCSI CD, the DOS card, A/V card, and TV tuner card, but no disks or manuals. I know it's off-topic but someone here already mentioned a restore CD, and I believe it was for the LC 630. If so, could you contact me off-list mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com ) so I could get a copy? I'll gladly pay for postage and media costs.. Same for hardcopy manuals. I have some .PDFs, but they're so clumsy ... If anyone has spare copies of manuals for this machine, especially any tech references or service manuals, I'll gladly pay postage, and some extra, for them.... Thanks! Rich B.

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > > > >Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and > > >I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you > > >had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a > > buy!? In the day when we had to use Trumpet Winsock, it came free when you > signed up for an internet account. But this was on Windows 3.1. Ditto that. -dq

23 years, 5 months

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RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff...

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Last time I was in a PC shop, they were selling 'line printer > > paper'... What was it? Poor-ish quality A4 sheets, like you'd use in > > a laser printer or copier. Not fanfold, not sproketed, certainly not > > greenbar. > > I bought a box of wide, greenbar paper at my local OfficeMax. They had > quite a few boxes in inventory. Yup. Box of 20lb greenbar set me back US$38 at Office Despot. -dq

23 years, 5 months

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SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc.

by zaft＠azstarnet.com

Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. GZ

23 years, 5 months

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panasonic hhc

by Golemancd＠aol.com

hey thanks hans i pulled up a webb site on it mentioning the basic in rom wonder if if have that and how to program with it. i got about six chips with it. i cant find them right now but i think i may have thrown them out. silly me Joe.

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the Netscape >browser. >A couple of folks have advised me to install a 32MB simm for that purpose >alone. >It would certainly be a shame to make the system buckle when browsing just >because it lacks RAM. I would give iCab a try (www.icab.de), it is free, and works extremely well. It uses way less RAM than Netscape, so it should work with just 8mb installed (4mb might be tight). I am running the latest version right now and it is taking up just 2.9mb of RAM. It is also faster and more stable than Netscape in my experience... and it is actively under development even for the 68k version, something you won't get with Netscape (the 68k version is dead in the water for Netscape). -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 5 months

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PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: > Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, > there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front > slots only. That reminds me... supplementary question: The machine had gaps between some of the cards. It's over 20 years since I used a PDP-8 for real, and in those days I wasn't usually allowed at the innards. The gaps don't matter, do they? There's no grant chain like in a Unibus, AFAIR. The -8/E is an Omnibus machine, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > It's the "quite a bit of extra work" that concerns me, as the > boys at M$ haven't > managed to do it right yet, and they've been at it to the > tune of 100K man hours > per year for a decade or so. Recording a bitwise image of Well, I haven't got much faith in them to begin with. They could work for 1000 years on a 20 minute job and still mess it up. I'm not saying that it might not actually take that long, just that m$ aren't competent enough to be a good indicator. > what you receive from > the disk may or may not give you all the information you need > to recreate the > files, since you may or may not know how the OS deals with > them. What's more, I was assuming you'd know the filesystem type at the time of the backup. I don't suppose it would be absolutely necessary. You might also recognize a filesystem by magic number/signature, or the like. [snip] > which you write such an image must be an EXACT duplicate of > the one from which > the image was recorded. The second drive may otherwise claim > to be identical > but have a different number of sectors per physical track, > use different mapping > arrangements, etc, and, especially, have different bad > blocks. Since you're Well, "otherwise identical" is dangerous territory at any rate. :) You're right, though, in that depending on the way the software components interact with the drive, one or more of these things might really screw things up. I suppose that would require one to know the internals of each system with which you plan to use this method. > going to send data that goes to where the drive sends it and > not necessarily to > the same physical location from which you got it because the ... which may be ok, depending on how the system interacts with the device in question. Of course, if you find that the system depends on the data being in some physical location, rather than in a logical location, you'd have to correct for that or _just not do it_ ;) [snip] > sent, you may be disappointed with the results because IDE > drives hide too many > details from the end-user. Yep. Tell me about it. [snip] > absolutely for certain, what > the drive does with the data you send it, and what the OS > does to process data > to and from the drive, you're on thin ice. That depends. For instance (This will now get very hypothetical), if the O/S handles data in logical blocks, and doesn't care too much the actual geometry of the drive, you might be ok with not knowing about the device. That is, with the exception of bad blocks. (Really I guess I'm talking about faking a standard interface even when it doesn't exist here) [snip] > all. Since SCSI is well established as to how it operates > its data management, > it yields more hope that you can process an image, though the > vagaries of the OS > are still a limiting factor. On the other hand, as some friends of mine are wont to say: "Neither S in SCSI means standard." > Image recording should work fine with MFM- and RLL-encoded > drives, even on a > track-by-track basis, and those offer some hope that one > could substitute one > sort of drive for another but hte ones which use BOTH CHS and > LBA addressing > won't tolerate the sort of operations to which an > incrementally developed OS > like Windows could create. Can't argue with that. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 5 months

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1771 floppy controller questions

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Yes, I have a few of them. the part is nearly the same as the 372 with some minor tweeks and differences. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:27 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >Yeah ... I wasn't sure about that, though I know they sold their Intel-numbered >version of the WD HDC chips (1010 and 2010). > >Didn't NEC also make a uPD371 that was for small tape drives? I know they made >something on that order, but I never got to play with them. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" <ajp166(a)bellatlantic.net> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:56 AM >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > >> Intel never did a 1771 compatable chip. They did do the 8271 that was >> FM only but totally incompatable with the 1771 socket. >> >> The second source that did ship parts is SMC. The other supplier was >> National Semi. >> >> NEC Started with the D372, that was a hard/soft sector single density >> controller that did find it's way into the first version of the IMSAI floppy >> controller. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:05 PM >> Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >> >> >> >I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which >> did, >> >IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC >> route >> >when MFM became popular, however. >> > >> >WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell >> you, >> >THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. >> > >> >As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony >> Duell >> >regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually >> made >> >the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of >> folks >> >couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party >> enhancment >> >for the floppy interface. >> > >> >Dick >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Tothwolf" <tothwolf(a)concentric.net> >> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >> >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM >> >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >> > >> > >> >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > From: "Tothwolf" <tothwolf(a)concentric.net> >> >> > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? >> >> > > >> >> > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when >> troubleshooting the >> >> > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy >> >> > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let >> out >> >> > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) >> >> > >> >> > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you >> describe. >> >I've >> >> > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. >> It's >> >> > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several >> >supplies, >> >> > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... >> >> >> >> I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be >> >> available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion >> >> interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used >> >> in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. >> If >> >> it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace >> >> those easily. >> >> >> >> It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in >> >> stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever >> >> manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. >> >> >> >> -Toth >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Ewing [mailto:greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz] > Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>: > > Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know > > about that. > But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously > clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't > happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that > to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! There's at least one worm that takes advantage of a Quicktime feature (why on earth did they put this in Quicktime?!) that will automatically run some program on a volume when the volume is mounted. Don't remember the name of this "feature," but it is akin to the windows "autorun," and just as bad. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 5 months

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1771 floppy controller questions

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Intel never did a 1771 compatable chip. They did do the 8271 that was FM only but totally incompatable with the 1771 socket. The second source that did ship parts is SMC. The other supplier was National Semi. NEC Started with the D372, that was a hard/soft sector single density controller that did find it's way into the first version of the IMSAI floppy controller. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:05 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which did, >IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC route >when MFM became popular, however. > >WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell you, >THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. > >As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony Duell >regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually made >the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of folks >couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party enhancment >for the floppy interface. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tothwolf" <tothwolf(a)concentric.net> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > From: "Tothwolf" <tothwolf(a)concentric.net> >> > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > > >> > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? >> > > >> > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the >> > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy >> > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out >> > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) >> > >> > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you describe. >I've >> > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. It's >> > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several >supplies, >> > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... >> >> I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be >> available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion >> interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used >> in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. If >> it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace >> those easily. >> >> It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in >> stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever >> manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. >> >> -Toth >> >> >

23 years, 5 months

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radio shack

by Golemancd＠aol.com

am listening to a radio shack conference call from july on aol right now most of what they r talking about is parts sales and how that is there main business pride and joy. pillar of the business . hummm Joe

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > medium, and subsequently writing them back to a physically > identical (not just > logically identical) target, without consideration for Why not just logically identical, then? ... assuming, of course, the same o/s would handle devices which are logically identical in an identical manner. (This may not be a safe assumption) [snip] > The bitwise image transfer from disk=>tape can be done > without knowledge of > either the compression scheme or of the OS/file system used > on it. It does > require, however, that the entire image be recorded so it can > be restored in its > entirety. The result is that you can use a different OS to > do that task though > it's not required, and the penalty is that you have no access > to the file data, > though you could, I guess, go to the trouble of deciphering > the bitwise image > into a logical file system if one originally existed. You > can do that under any > circumstances, but it's a lot of trouble and requires you > know a great deal > about the low-level processes of converting the data on the > orginal drive into > the files comprising it. I think you've just summed up my previous point. That being, of course, that if you can record a bit-by-bit image, you should also be able to interpret this image (with quite a bit of extra work), and find the component files. In fact, I'd add that depending on the amount of extra work you're willing to do, you can likely restore the image in a "logical" fashion to a volume that is completely different from the one on which it originally resided. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 5 months

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Radio Shack abandons components

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Digi-key always seemed to expensive for my tastes -- at least for > everything that I need, Mouser seems a lot less expensive & I can attest > that they have *very* helpful and quite clueful staff, but when you need > that *weird* part, JDR & Jameco seem to keep a lot of older stuff in stock... I love the way Digi-Key kits their parts. That plus, 7805 and 7812 regulators sold by Rat Shack have a tendency to pop quicker when presented with too-great a load... -dq

23 years, 5 months

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Radio Shack abandons components

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Radio Shack has been slowly diminishing the individual parts and goin for > the glamour sales of consumer electronics mostly anymore. Won't be long and > the days of RS/Lafayette/Olson being in the nearby neighborhood strip malls > for those that want to "do it themselves" will be totally gone. Now you gone and done it. I'll be up all night reading my nearly 30-year old Lafayette catalogs tonight... I don't think any of the Olson catalogs survived. We never had a Lafayette store here, but we did have a Tape Centre that merged with Olson... -dq

23 years, 5 months

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panasonic hhc

by Golemancd＠aol.com

i was in a pawn shop a couple of years ago and the guy behind the counter had a calculator type deal on the counter and he just said i could have it. he said someone just left it there. it has a full keyboard with a small lcd and a printer attachment. panasonic hhc anyone know about this . joe

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would > be a mite tedious. Well, I didn't say it would be easy ;) It's one of those things that is theoretically simple. > physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same > number of heads, > cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, > since we don't know > how the drive firmware deals with translating from the > block-level commands the > OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the > buffers-full of data > that the drive coughs up. There must be a method of block-by-block access that will give you the sequence of data you need. Otherwise things would have already fallen apart, and disks would be write-only devices. :) It probably helps to think of the filesystem as a data set, rather than a device-dependant entity. The data is the same, up to a point, no matter what you write it to. Of course, whether the amount of translation you'd need to do to find that essential data set is too much work, is arguable.... > potentially, to > deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned > drive in the same way > that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS > doesn't know what > you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the > disk, except as raw > data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the > code you've written. I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here. It's early, though. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 5 months

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Update: Hello, and please help with RSX-11M/PDP parts

by csmith＠amdocs.com

Due to popular demand (by pretty much everyone who's answered this post. :) I've gotten the version of RSX, as close as I can manage, and everything else that the system tells me. For those of you who missed it, I'm trying to get this machine to log me in as some privileged user so that I can -- among other things -- back the drive up. The startup sequence on the console port looks like this: 2J5;0H Testing in progress - Please wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting system DEVICE TT005: NOT IN CONFIGURATION At this point the console port does nothing more, however, on another port at the time, we see: RSX-11M V4.2 BL38D 512.K MAPPED >RED DU:=SY: >RED DU:=LB: >MOV DU:DF370B >@DU:[1,2]STARTUP >* Please enter time and date (HR:MN DD-MMM-YY) [S]: At this point if one enters a time/date, they will be rewarded with a > prompt, and logged in as [10,10]. If you hit ^Z, the exact same thing happens. :) Any more ideas? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 5 months

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Radio Shack abandons components

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Experimenters: Time to stock up! Nah... Long Live Jameco & Digi-Key! -dq

23 years, 5 months

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FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts

by mark_k＠totalise.co.uk

Hi, Some of you have probably used the PartMiner/FreeTradeZone web site at http://www.freetradezone.com/ to download datasheets for older, discontinued chips. This has been very useful to me. For discontinued products (which I guess is what most of us are interested in), they are moving to a subscription-only system. Subscription cost is a whopping US$299 per month (introductory; the normal cost is supposedly US$375), so future access will only be viable for most people if you need it for your job. I don't know when the change is being made, or if it has happened already. If it hasn't, better download datasheets that you need while you still can. -- Mark

23 years, 5 months

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SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc.

by Antonio.Carlini＠riverstonenet.com

> >It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are > two versions > >of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the > >earlier 1996 version. > > Thanks! I was able to find it and a lot of other stuff too. I've just had an email from them indicating that they are about to start charging for *some* of their service. It's not clear whether you will soon have to pay to get access to datasheets for out-of-production parts. Antonio arcarlini(a)iee.org

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Ewing [mailto:greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz] > Christopher Smith <csmith(a)amdocs.com>: > > > Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the > users with terms > > like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," > Those are such dry, boring, Microsoft-sounding names. > Finder is so much cooler! Actually, those "dry" names mostly come from long before bill gates had even thought of writing a bad basic interpreter. > And it's not so much of a misnomer if you think of it > the right way. It lets *you* find things -- i.e. browse > the file system. Also, it finds an appropriate application > to launch for you when you open a document. I don't know if I can agree there. For instance, by allowing you to "browse the file system" and to manage your files, it will let you loose things as easily as find them. Might as well call it the "loser." ;) Now, regarding "finding" an application to run: What it actually does is read the location of the appropriate application >from the desktop file, by looking it up based on a type/creator attribute stored in the files resource fork. I don't think it has to "find" anything for that. > By the way, System 7 and later Finders do have a > "Find..." command that will let you search for files > by name. Took them long enough, didn't it? :) I can agree here. This command really does allow one to "find" things, but it's a small part of the functionality of the program. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by edick＠idcomm.com

This was misrouted and returned to me, I know not why or where ... Let's try again ... Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Sent: 20 November 2001 01:08 > To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > If you're meaning operating on the tape contents, you're talking about weeks > to > months. The bits of a file are scattered around the disk, since it's random > access, albeit in "clusters" or whatever you choose to call them, and in > blocks, > as the data buffer stores them, but unless you KNOW where the directory is > in > the bitwise image of the disk, and unless you know where all the pieces of > the > drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would be a mite > tedious. > The problem, of course, with image backup, is that the bits have to be > extracted > from the drive at the raw data level, i.e. with controller commands you > normally > don't deal with, and they can't be faithfully restored to a drive that's not > physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same number of heads, > cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, since we don't > know > how the drive firmware deals with translating from the block-level commands > the > OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the buffers-full of > data > that the drive coughs up. > > Remember, when you restart the system, it has no OS other than what you can > load > from a floppy. IF that's the same, which certainly isn't the case under > WIndows, as what you used to do the backup, then you're able, potentially, > to > deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned drive in the same > way > that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS doesn't know what > you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the disk, except as > raw > data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the code you've > written. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Smith" <csmith(a)amdocs.com> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:00 PM > Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > > > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > > > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > > > the contents into > > > files that can take place, is there? > > > > That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the > > contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set > > of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) > > > > I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a > bit-for-bit > > image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with > attributes, > > etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this > case, > > could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot > of > > seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. > > > > The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and > > tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely > > required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. > > > > The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the > like. > > You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like > a > > disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be > > enough. > > > > How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a > > file-manager on it? ;) > > > > > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > > > a backup, but, > > > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > > > its "restore" > > > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > > > didn't matter. > > > > If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you > may > > be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to > > say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > > ' > > > > > > > >

23 years, 5 months

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Eltron 16VAC adapters

by angela＠holybears.com

I would like to get one or more of those adapters if you have any left.

23 years, 5 months

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OT: List features - table of contents?

by rcini＠optonline.net

While scanning the digest this morning (I'm on vacation) I remembered back to a long time ago when the list digest had a table of contents of the messages at the top of the digest. Is this a subscription option or a feature of the list manager software that we can have back? Oh, Sam...email me. I have that DayGlo yellow 8080 you were looking for. Only one made you know :-) Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/

23 years, 5 months

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HP 3000 No More (legacy)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Noteably the Bridgeport company consumed some 100,000 LSI-11 card sets for their NC systems. Later I think Falcon(T11) cards were also used and I've seena fair number of PDP-8s mated to the larger vertical mills. Thats not even close to exhaustive list. Other cpus (HP, Cincinatti Millichron, Z80 based, 6800 and 6502 as well). Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ian Koller <vze2mnvr(a)verizon.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 4:46 AM Subject: Re: HP 3000 No More (legacy) > > >ajp166 wrote: >> For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them > >What mfg. model CNC machines run on PDP's? > > > >ajp166 wrote: >> >> From: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> >> >> >On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: >> >> PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. >> > >> > [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] >> > >> > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to >> >sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and >> >buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT >> >architecture discontinued? >> > >> > For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to >> >call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and >> >> Dead to me is broken. Obsolete is when it cant forfill the intesded task >> or when it has reached a level of repair difficulty where replacement is >> an option. For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them >> that number is still over $50,000 to upgrade and 100s of thousands of >> dollars to replace. In the face of that the PDP-8 that still makes good >> flanges is cheap at $2000 for a working cold spare. >> >> For example I was given three working 386(mono) and 486(color) laptops >> as too weak to be useful. Fully working machines with Xircom network >> adaptors and all! >> >> Allison >

23 years, 5 months

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PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Omnibus dones not have a unibus/qbus grant chain. the general organisation is anywhere it fits generally works save for cards that have over the top connections. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:52 AM Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case >On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: >> Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, >> there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front >> slots only. > >That reminds me... supplementary question: The machine had gaps between >some of the cards. It's over 20 years since I used a PDP-8 for real, and >in those days I wasn't usually allowed at the innards. The gaps don't >matter, do they? There's no grant chain like in a Unibus, AFAIR. The >-8/E is an Omnibus machine, of course. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York >

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> WDEF could do this, but it was rendered dead by System 7 (it infected the > System 6 and earlier desktop database, so when a disk was inserted, it > could spread to any uninfected desktop databases) This caused me much grief, as I had a customized WDEF routine I'd edit into every System file; it was Andy's source, modified to do the Lisa-styled titlebar and widgets. But anti-virus software of the day gave false positives for my WDEF. -dq

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>They both have Claris Works loaded, but since >there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. NO NO NO NO... Claris Works shipped with EVERY performa... but since it was an Apple product, it was tied into that damn Backup program, and no install disks were supplied. (There should be a simple manual, but the previous owners may have lost it). Don't flush it, it is legal (and again, I can supply you with a replacement copy if need be, it came with Claris Works version 2.1) >One has a Stylewriter II and the other has a Color >Stylewriter 2400, not that I know what the differences are. The 2400 is the better of the two. Check Apple's web site for specs. The goofy catch with the 2400 is, it has no direct printer driver, you need to use the driver for the 2500 (go figure) > They have >essentially useless (2400 Baud) GV Teleport Bronze modems, which I guess I'll >upgrade in order to make the system useful for internet browsing If you are dumping the GV Bronze modems, I would be interested in aquiring them from you. They are FANTASTIC fax modems, so I use them on old Mac SE's as fax stations. >I'm still in the throes of figuring out how, exactly to equip these things >with >"legal" software Accordng to Apple, the 630CD comes with a Restore CD. Run that, and you will get all the shipped "legal" software the machine came with. The 630CD shipped with the following software: Performa 630CD - M3424LL/A ? ? ? ? ? Includes ClarisWorks 2.1, American ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Heritage Dictionary 3rd Edition, Quicken ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4, MacLink Translators, Mac Gallery Clip ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Art, Click Art Performa Collection, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?KidWorks 2, Thinkin' Things, The Writing ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Center, Spectre Challenger, Spin Doctor ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Lite, TelePort Fax Send, At Ease 2.0, PC ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Exchange, and eWorld. It also orginally shipped with System 7.1, but 7.5.5 is now free off Apple's web site, so you can upgrade to it without legal fear. If you don't have the restore CD, let me know, I can look and see if I have one. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 5 months

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Altair32 Emulator - StarTrek Runs!

by rcini＠optonline.net

Hello, all: Another minor success. With the help of Mike Dogas, I was able to get Altair BASIC 4.0 (8K BASIC) running in the emulator. With that comes support for strings. With strings, Super StarTrek. Whoo, hoo! Thanks Mike! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/

23 years, 5 months

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: John Galt <gmphillips(a)earthlink.net> >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > >However, there are a few collectors who have been >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would >have already seen one. These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively traded survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is >it's a late run C8080A that was It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and Europe. It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing (military, space or other high stress apps). Ceramic aging/dating: Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. early White examples were early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) 1101, 1103 ram 1702 eprom first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s brown (light) later dark brown Gray Gray with brownish cast Gray with purplish cast Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common ceramic of the time. Allison

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by Joanne.Renardson＠grangewintringham.com

This came to me in error. Regards, Jo. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] Sent: 20 November 2001 01:08 To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? If you're meaning operating on the tape contents, you're talking about weeks to months. The bits of a file are scattered around the disk, since it's random access, albeit in "clusters" or whatever you choose to call them, and in blocks, as the data buffer stores them, but unless you KNOW where the directory is in the bitwise image of the disk, and unless you know where all the pieces of the drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would be a mite tedious. The problem, of course, with image backup, is that the bits have to be extracted >from the drive at the raw data level, i.e. with controller commands you normally don't deal with, and they can't be faithfully restored to a drive that's not physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same number of heads, cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, since we don't know how the drive firmware deals with translating from the block-level commands the OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the buffers-full of data that the drive coughs up. Remember, when you restart the system, it has no OS other than what you can load >from a floppy. IF that's the same, which certainly isn't the case under WIndows, as what you used to do the backup, then you're able, potentially, to deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned drive in the same way that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS doesn't know what you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the disk, except as raw data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the code you've written. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" <csmith(a)amdocs.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:00 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > > the contents into > > files that can take place, is there? > > That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the > contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set > of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) > > I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a bit-for-bit > image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with attributes, > etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this case, > could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot of > seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. > > The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and > tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely > required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. > > The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the like. > You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like a > disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be > enough. > > How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a > file-manager on it? ;) > > > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > > a backup, but, > > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > > its "restore" > > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > > didn't matter. > > If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you may > be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to > say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > >

23 years, 5 months

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HP 3000 No More (legacy)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> >On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: >> PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. > > [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] > > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to >sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and >buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT >architecture discontinued? > > For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to >call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and Dead to me is broken. Obsolete is when it cant forfill the intesded task or when it has reached a level of repair difficulty where replacement is an option. For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them that number is still over $50,000 to upgrade and 100s of thousands of dollars to replace. In the face of that the PDP-8 that still makes good flanges is cheap at $2000 for a working cold spare. For example I was given three working 386(mono) and 486(color) laptops as too weak to be useful. Fully working machines with Xircom network adaptors and all! Allison

23 years, 5 months

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Dead Intel MDS controller board

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Nov 19, 20:52, Dave Mabry wrote: > I have that manual (98-422A) and that is the correct one for the > SBC-202. I think Intel just gave the 202 name to that board set when it > was bought for integration into an application. > > I am anxious to try to troubleshoot this, but I'm not sure how to go > about it. [...] > FWIW, this seems to be the exact failure mode I've seen in every one > I've had fail. > Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? I'd say "let's see it". You might get more than onme opinion, and in any case if the fault is relatively common, there's a good chance someone else can make use of the information later. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 5 months

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PDP-8 case

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Nov 19, 18:35, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Greg Ewing" <greg(a)cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> > > I think so-called "conductive" foam actually has quite > > a high resistance. If that's so, it would be unlikely > > to upset any ordinary logic circuit. > ISTR something about megohms per linear inch... > I doubt that will bother PDP-8 circuits much. Resistivity is normally measured "per square" (if it's linear, how wide should the strip be?) And this stuff is about 25 megohms per square, according to my measurements. So, no, I don't see how it could bother 7400 TTL. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 5 months

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PDP-8 case

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove > > the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. > > Yes, that's a very common problem... Makes a right mess on a the backplane... This hadn't reached the completely crumbly stage, but it did smell of cat :-( > I have never seen conductive foam used on PDP8/e machines. There's > nothing particularly static-sensitive in there anyway (the CPU is all > fairly large-junction bipolar chips (TTL, etc). Mine just had the normal > brown foam throughout. > > Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, > there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front > slots only. > > But the leakage on conducive foam is not that high, and I doubt that > using it would cause many problems (TTL inputs are fairly low impedance). > It might have an effect if used over core memory units, but actually I > doubt it. I didn't really think it would make much difference, but I can clearly see the impression made by the connectors for the core stack, which is reputedly not working. The machine had modern semiconductor memory in it when I got it -- the 1995 board I mentioned in another post -- and I've not tried the core for myself yet. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 5 months

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sought: SunPC 3.1b software

by red＠bears.org

I just found a SunPC Accelerator DX in a box of junk at a recycler's. Does anybody have a copy of SunPC 3.1b so I can try to use this on my Solaris 1.1.2 box? Supposedly it was distributed on CD; a disc image or a copy of its contents would be more than sufficient. TIA ok r.

23 years, 5 months

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What is a RL02K-DC?

by kurok002＠tc.umn.edu

I recently found a RL02K-DC cartridge in storage here at work. I was just curious to know if they are worth anything today? Are they still being used?? -- University of Minnesota Cancer Center 590 CCRB MMC 494 420 Delaware Street S.E. Minneapolis,MN 55455 E-mail:kurok002@tc.umn.edu Phone: (612)626-4323 Fax:(612)624-3913

23 years, 5 months

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H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice

by cube1＠home.com

I have had a PDP-11/24 for some years, working just fine (last time I had it on was about last May). Yesterday it decided not to work. Looks like the H7140 supply. The +300V on the voltage doubler is there, but the +13V in the Bias/Interface board reads about +7V. I suspect this is central to the problem. (The +12V Bias is also reading about +7V). When I turn the console power switch, I can hear the contactor in the power control unit in the rack, so I don't think it is the switch itself. When I flip the breaker on, I can hear a "chirp" as though an oscillator starts up. If I flip the breaker off, then about 10s later I can hear the chirp of an oscillator shutting down. Any words of advice? Does anyone have a technical description of the H7140? I have schematics (and can read them at the component level), but power supplies are hardly my strong point -- it would be useful to have some description of just how this animal goes thru a power up sequence. Plus, blind diagnosis will be slow -- there aren't any test points, and one needs to make sure the +300V from the doubler has been bled off before yanking cards to solder test tails at strategic points. It would be helpful if someone could give me some guidance so I knew more about how this thing works. Jay Jaeger --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1(a)home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection

23 years, 5 months

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Qbus & Unibus cards avalable

by Innfogra＠aol.com

I have the following Qbus & Unibus card that I want to offer to the list first before offering them on ebay. Please contact me off list at: whoagiii(a)aol.com Dilog MQ696 - This is a current 22 bit Disk Controller Qbus card. It is a 20 MHz ESDI controller for two drives. It also supports two SA450 floppy drives. It supports RX33/50s and MSCP. It is a nice looking design. M5903 Drive Transceiver M7607AP/AH MS630A 1 Meg MicroVAX II Memory - Have 2 M7946 RXV11 LSI11 RX01 Controller M7940 Serial Line Unit M7941 DRV11 16 bit Parallel Line Unit M8029 RXV21 LSI11 RX02 Controller M8186 Rev 202 D0 11/23 CPU M8958 TM78 Translator Unibus - Tape? M9202 Unibus Connector Inverted have 2 M9400 YE LSI11 Ref Boot Cable Conn Netcom NDLV-11 700 0055 MDB DRV11C Program I/O module Plessey 705113-100B Looks like a three serial port card Sandwich board set which occupies 2 sets of slots Andromeda Systems MSI11-2 2 serial port card handwritten serial numbers Have 2 Andromeda Systems MSI11 4 serial port card Rubber stamp SN 304 Codar Tech Has three batteries so I think it has clock functions. There is a 34 pin connector and a 10 pin jumper block? Digital Pathways TCU - 50 Real Time Clock card settable to normal or leap year Address-76077X Don't know its 2000 compatibility. Feel free to ask questions, preferably off list. I have pictures if needed. Paxton Astoria, OR

23 years, 5 months

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Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV

by claudew＠videotron.ca

Its not computer collecting on TV but very close... I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them evaluated and info on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" Do they know about computer collecting also? Claude http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector

23 years, 5 months

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

That only applied to some of the darker ceramics and early parts were the white. They still had to remove or reduce the gold used in the bond wire and lead frames even for plastic. What drove the price of ceramic way up is ram and cpu prodution rates really jumped up from 1978 to 1984 and the production of ceramic packages could not keep pace. Plastic was always used for ram, and lower in cost. The problem was the early gray silicone plastics were far from hermetic. There would be several generations of the black stuff in an attempt to make the plastic less absorptive of moisture while trying better methods of passivating the die. Then there was the matter of disapating the heat. Even as late as 1984 the failure rates for the D416/4116 dynamic and 2114 and 2167 static parts was noteably higher for plastic than ceramic. I use those cases as they were mature parts by then and still plastic was viewed as less reliable though far lower in cost. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Bob Shannon <bshannon(a)tiac.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >In my experiance, very early chips used a purple ceramic with a high thorium >content causing the distinctive color. Unfortunatley, this thorium emits low >level >particles that cause soft errors, which became apparent in the early days of DRAM. > >This drove a change in ceramic processing and costs, pointing the way towards >todays plastic packages. > >Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: >> >> > As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as >> > "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can >> > see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been >> > black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >> > C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My >> > guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they >> > used for some of the later C8085AH's. >> >> My questions is: why does this matter? Will researchers 50 years from now >> find the Purple one useful for any sort of study? What makes the Purple >> one special beyond just being a pretty if not questionable shade of >> purple? >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org >

23 years, 5 months

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Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and >Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them evaluated and info >on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 >cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and >some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" And what were some of the wanted carts? Not that I will ever part with any of mine, but it is always nice to know if you have something of monitary value (although, in my case, most of it will be "I had that!", since a "friend" walked off with most of my good ones years ago... kind of like all the first series star wars action figures I blew up with firecrackers in my youth) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>I can't think of a way for a virus to jump onto a disk on a Mac simply >by the disk being there, without any virus-infected program >running. Unless a virus has attacked the Finder or the OS itself, >which is a possibility, I suppose. WDEF could do this, but it was rendered dead by System 7 (it infected the System 6 and earlier desktop database, so when a disk was inserted, it could spread to any uninfected desktop databases) >But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously >clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't >happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that >to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! Auto-Start worms, but then, you are really sort of running something off the disk (the worm), and these can be stopped by turning off the auto run on insert in the QuickTime control panel. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In Oregon it is on in 40 minutes, at 8:00 PM PBS. I look forward to it. Paxton Astoria, OR

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know about that. >The "spare" HD would have to be a SCSI drive, right? How does the MAC go >about >recognizing a valid SCSI device? What has to be done to a JAZ platter to >make >it (the MAC) recognize it. The MacOS is technically no more or less virus friendly than Windows. You just don't have some of the obvious security flaws (like VBScript). But the main reason viri aren't as rampant on the mac as they are on the PC is simply, if you are going to write a virus you are probably trying to hit as many computers as possible... so why write for a 5% market share when you can write for a 90% market share. As for recognizing SCSI devices. The Mac will recognize that a device is connected (if you have some kind of a scsi probe, you can see that the mac knows it is there), but depending on the device, it may or may not be usable without additional software. In the case of tape drives, you need software that will talk to them (like retrospect), Zip and Jaz drives have a small extension that will let the OS see them and treat them like high capacity floppy drives (and I think that extension may have been rolled into OS 9.x but I'm not positive). CDs are similar, they have a driver with the OS, (although that driver tends to only want to support Apple approved CDs, so there are 3rd party drivers like FWB's CD Toolkit, and Toast's CD Reader). Hard Drive support is built into the OS (low level formating and partitioning may need 3rd party software if it isn't an "Apple" drive). Most everything else needs 3rd party software (like scanners, SCSI->Ethernet adaptors, etc.), but usually, the software/drivers are free, and will come with the device (like my Umax scanner software is available free from Umax's web site... but it only works with their scanners) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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Dead Intel MDS controller board

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 11/19/01 6:01:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmabry(a)mich.com writes: > Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? > Please keep it on the list. I find it very interesting. Now if I could find my Multibus 1 cards I could follow along. I think I have a 202 somewhere in there. Paxton Astoria, OR

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Nortel yard sale

by KenzieM＠sympatico.ca

I don't know how much classic stuff there may be but it anyone is interested: > > Anyone know about this: > > > > Item in Canadian Business magazine, November 26, 2001, p. 11. > > > > "If you like poking around garage sales, you won't wanna miss this. On Nov. > > 28 and 29 in Ottawa, Nortel will hold the first of a series of sales to try > > to raise $100 million to offset some of the billions lost in the past year. > > Globally, it hopes to unload more than 20,000 pieces of used equipment, some > > for less than 20% of original cost."

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PDP-8 case

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

I don't remember that foam as being conductive. Most conductive foams tend to shred, those bits are not kind to the electronics. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:49 PM Subject: PDP-8 case >I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove >the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. > I'm not sure what best to replace it with, as the foam was in two parts. > >The square(ish) area above the rear Omnibus section was ordinary brown >high-density plastic foam, about 3/8" thick, but most of the area above the >front section was black conductive foam. Is this original? Was it >supposed to protect the boards that have H851 over-the-top connectors from >static that might have been carried by ordinary foam? I'd have thought the >leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. > >So, should I use ordinary high-density foam, or conductive? > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York

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PDP-8 case

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. I'm not sure what best to replace it with, as the foam was in two parts. The square(ish) area above the rear Omnibus section was ordinary brown high-density plastic foam, about 3/8" thick, but most of the area above the front section was black conductive foam. Is this original? Was it supposed to protect the boards that have H851 over-the-top connectors from static that might have been carried by ordinary foam? I'd have thought the leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. So, should I use ordinary high-density foam, or conductive? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > There's a program (somewhere) called "FINDER," though I'm not > convinced it's for > the purpose of finding something. What I need to find out is > how to find the > FINDER. Then, of course, I have to figure out how to drive > it ... <sigh> will > it ever end ... Ahh yes. :) Having been employed as a Mac-only programmer for a while, let me assure you that there is a program called "Finder," which, in fact, is not for finding things at all. Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the users with terms like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," "button two" or the like. ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES >book I >can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I >don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty >intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some >chance >of guessing right.) If you can browse the web, you can operate iCab. You probably will never find a book on iCab, because it doesn't need one... it works, and it works in the most obvious of ways (type in a url, or choose one from the hotlist menu). It doesn't suffer from bloatware, so there is nothing to get lost or confused with. If you can read, you can work iCab (and you need not have to read a specific language, as it is available in a bunch of them). -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > the contents into > files that can take place, is there? That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a bit-for-bit image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with attributes, etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this case, could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot of seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the like. You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like a disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be enough. How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a file-manager on it? ;) > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > a backup, but, > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > its "restore" > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > didn't matter. If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you may be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc.

by Lee.Davison＠merlincommunications.com

Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are two versions of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the earlier 1996 version. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service.

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SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc.

by CLeyson＠aol.com

In a message dated 11/19/01 10:25:21 PM GMT Standard Time, zaft(a)azstarnet.com writes: > SCB68430 Try www.partminer.com Chris Leyson

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> On the other hand, wearing a name tag that says "John Galt" > in a room full of techies is an unpardonably cheesy offense. What would Bob the Lizard say? "...more gin..." -- No Tourbots

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup > packages that > worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release > of Win9x, I've > bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of > each, yet not seen > one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. Ahh, well if you allow third-parties into the picture, it changes somewhat. [Backup utility problems snipped] > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. > The Microsoft > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works > ...sorta... and > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS > recognizes correctly > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it > falls down later > because of that problem. <sigh> Since it's a microsoft utility, you can bet that the moment you upgrade windows, the backups will be unusable, since the new, improved version will be completely incompatible. > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because > you have to have > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, > context and all, that Bingo. Windows is not an enterprise class system, nor, IMNSHO, is it even worthy of being used in a production context. ... but back to the topic at hand. :) > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have In a single utility? Perhaps not, but how much "context" do you expect from DOS? :) The built-in backup program would copy files onto some other medium, and a recovery disk could at least be made relatively simply. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your complaint, though. My problem with the DOS backup utility was that every time somebody at m$ re-compiled something, your old backups were useless. I assume a third-party add-on would fix that. > that, UNIX doesn't > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to I find that TAR gives me useable backups in general. Again, there's no such thing as a "standalone tar," so you'll need a recovery disk/tape/something. It also has CPIO if you're into that sort of thing, and several third-party things. > tape), OS/2 doesn't have > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to See unix above... also note that TAR may be available for OS/2. It is slightly harder to build an OS/2 recovery disk. > do. I guess > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the > only solution. Of > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or > nothing basis. Well, do you consider that space part of your "context?" Where is the line drawn? Also note that the empty space isn't exactly empty in most cases. As for "all-or-nothing" replacement, that's not exactly the case. You certainly could mount an image right from the backup device (very slowly for tape ;) and read files out. It would be a larger problem if your backups don't fit filesystem-for-cartrige. I'm relatively convinced that as long as you can backup files and attributes (including ACL, etc), treating special files as if they were (special, that is...), you ought to be ok. The only place you'd get bitten is in systems that need to know an exact location of a bootable image, or other such special file. That can probably be handled in the restore procedure, though. So I think DOS and Unix can be backed up pretty well. Windows is a different story, I guess. It would help, for windows, of course, if they'd provide a decent, uniform, block-device access method. Don't hold your breath, though. > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! What really makes it inexcusable is the fact that a backup utility shouldn't be too difficult to cook up. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes >in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to >be a "left-over" from early days. Certain hardware could do background read/write starting with 7.5.3 (? maybe .5). I used to do it with my Quarda 610. Also, as of OS 8.0, read/write can be done in the background on all hardware that supports OS 8.0 (32 bit clean, 040's or better). I regularly put long file copies in the background and continue doing other things. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

It was nowhere near that frequent. We used number like 1/10^6 device hours for occurance rates. Often they found minor burps in the system were at fault. As to the ceramic VS plastic you have to looks carefully at the system as the two have different leadframes, operating temps, likely timing and bus capacitance. All of those things for a given system interact. The worst example was early intel ceramic parts (8755, 8748, 8749 and 8751) where the lid was floating (not attached to any pin), they were quite sensitive to small static charges accumulating on the lid! People thought it was radiation doing it! Simple ESD problem. The reason it's less a problem is ECC is common as is error scrubbing and fewer interconnects, packages and die. Then again do we know that the last Blue Screen Of Death (BSOD) was really a MS OS burp or some system data error? :-) Try and buy memories larger than say 1Mbit in ceramic now. In all the systems I've encountered denser memories went hand in hand with better reliablity of that part of the system. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 2:13 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >Gee, Allison, that's not how I remember that stuff at all. We had a dozen or >more machines running a really thorough memory tests in the early '80's and the >purpose was to quantify the difference in error rates between ceramic and >plastic parts. In order to do that, all you needed was a big enough DRAM array, >and you'd see them at a rate of about one or two per minute from among those >machines. Of course we'd be using about 8 boards measuring about 16" x 22" with >288 devices per board, then tracking the locations of the corrected errors. If >you used plastic parts, the error rate dropped, comparatively, by about 90%. >That's the reason the problem was so widely discussed. It's odd that it doesn't >exist anymore, with the typcial home computer having about as much RAM nowadays >as all the computers in the world had when I was in college. BTW, that entire >problem went almost completely away once the DRAMs were redesigned with that >checkerboarding mod I mentioned. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" <ajp166(a)bellatlantic.net> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:31 AM >Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> back then I was involved in that stuff and 99% of the Dram problems were >> design >> related and not alpha particle. To see the alpha particle in real apps >> you'd need >> a box that had thouands of them running 7x24 for weeks! S100 systems that >> ran >> that well were prone to the power company failing to deliver before ram >> failure was >> a problem! >> >> Back in that time frame I used static ram due to the general flakyness I >> preceived >> of most S100 cards. The best S100 ram I'd used for that time frame (1980) >> had an 8202( Netronics DRAM using 16Ks). >> >That board (I've still got a couple, 1 still unbuilt) was very, Very, VERY slow, >and used somebody's rather lame DRAM controller IC. The boards from CCS had >timing adquate for use with 64K parts if you didn't mind making the mod's, AND >they worked. The stock and unmodified version of those boards ran in a set of 8 >boards for one of my clients running something like Mmmost or whatever it was >called, for several years and, since they had a UPS, never experienced a failure >in the time I worked with them. The Systems Group stuff worked really well, and >I still like 'em, though the boards are 512K boards rather than the 128K ones >they were then, having been designed with the eventual emergence of 256K parts >in mind. > >The main problem with S-100 DRAM boards was that designers seldom understood >both the S-100 timing and the proper use of DRAMs. Frankly, since there wasn't >a standard, it is understandable that nobody could get complete interoperability >from DRAMs with reasonable timing, since the S-100 had been designed around one >CPU and then the most popular CPU was promptly replaced by another one with >completely different timing. >> >> Allison >> >> >> From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> >> >> >> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as >> >having >> >> too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure >> that >> >was, >> >> in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose >> >they >> >> fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and >> other >> >> such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron >> process >> >for >> >> making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. >> > >> >My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the >> >very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are >> >OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on >> >the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL >> >to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq >> > >> >> >

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

It was easy to buy into but, it wasn't supported by research. I was with NEC at that time and Dram was one of the hot products and they were pretty good at it. Tyrns out the gold braze for the lid and the gold based eutectic for the die bond were the real source and it was Alpha particles (most easily stopped) as a primary source of "soft" errors. Since then tricks like memory scrubbing in ECC systems and better controls on charge refresh have burried the problem even though the features are several orders smaller. That very smaller means less charge and there for more problems but it also means a smaller target meaning a more likely miss. In 1981 it translated to you had to have a lot of chips, running for a long time to get a radiation induced soft error and even then parity or better yet ECC was the way out. In the end, not a problem for most systems. Really interesting if your into statistics and probability. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >I don't remember that explanation, though I guess it could be plausible. What I >remember reading was that, since western Colorado and eastern Utah, where they >were getting some of their materials was also an area of relatively high >concentration of radioactive minerals, which certainly lines up with the 1950's >activity in uranium prospecting/mining in that area. It was easy for me to buy >into during that period. The problem was found in almost all ceramic packages >made from materials acquired in that part of the country, so it seemed >reasonable enough. It doesn't matter now, of course. > >Dick >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" <ajp166(a)bellatlantic.net> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:24 AM >Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> Not quite true. >> >> The Dram problem was one of those "we knew it was comming" due >> to shrinking geometry items. The source of the radiation was the Gold >> eutectic braze. The specific radiation was alpha particles. FYI the >> solution was organic based die overcoat. Testing for the phenomina was >> undertaken to verify and analyze the phenomina by NEC,IBM and MOTO >> (to name a few) using initally small geometry 16k single voltage (i2118 >> style) parts. >> >> FYI: the coors ceramic parts were morecostly due to the gold! They >> however were better for hermetic performance than slab with glass frit >> sealed packages. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >> Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:00 AM >> Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >> >> >> >Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as >> having >> >too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that >> was, >> >in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose >> they >> >fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and >> other >> >such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process >> for >> >making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. >> > >> >Dick >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Douglas Quebbeman" <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> >> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >> >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM >> >Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >> > >> > >> >> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes >> from a >> >> > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east >> and >> >> > Europe. >> >> >> >> heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 >> >> into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors >> >> Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. >> >> >> >> -dq >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > version of the OS. surely there's some way to determine what > hardware the > machine thinks it "sees," though. No. It's one of the things that Apple decided to leave out in the name of simplicity. You'll need to find a program to do it. "Apple System Profiler" as suggested, will likely work. You may have to go find yourself a copy. Have you checked Apple's web-page? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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No subject

by news＠kostecke.net

Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp Path: gateway From: ajp166(a)bellatlantic.net (Allison) Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Date: 19 Nov 01 13:38:45 GMT Sender: Steve Kostecke <steve(a)kostecke.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> X-Priority: 3 Distribution: local X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org X-Mailing-List: classiccmp X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org didn't match any local name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 72 Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org using -f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Galt <gmphillips(a)earthlink.net> >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > >However, there are a few collectors who have been >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would >have already seen one. These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively traded survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is >it's a late run C8080A that was It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and Europe. It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing (military, space or other high stress apps). Ceramic aging/dating: Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. early White examples were early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) 1101, 1103 ram 1702 eprom first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s brown (light) later dark brown Gray Gray with brownish cast Gray with purplish cast Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common ceramic of the time. Allison

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

back then I was involved in that stuff and 99% of the Dram problems were design related and not alpha particle. To see the alpha particle in real apps you'd need a box that had thouands of them running 7x24 for weeks! S100 systems that ran that well were prone to the power company failing to deliver before ram failure was a problem! Back in that time frame I used static ram due to the general flakyness I preceived of most S100 cards. The best S100 ram I'd used for that time frame (1980) had an 8202( Netronics DRAM using 16Ks). Allison From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> >> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as >having >> too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that >was, >> in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose >they >> fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other >> such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process >for >> making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > >My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the >very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are >OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on >the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL >to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq >

23 years, 5 months

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Not quite true. The Dram problem was one of those "we knew it was comming" due to shrinking geometry items. The source of the radiation was the Gold eutectic braze. The specific radiation was alpha particles. FYI the solution was organic based die overcoat. Testing for the phenomina was undertaken to verify and analyze the phenomina by NEC,IBM and MOTO (to name a few) using initally small geometry 16k single voltage (i2118 style) parts. FYI: the coors ceramic parts were morecostly due to the gold! They however were better for hermetic performance than slab with glass frit sealed packages. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as having >too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that was, >in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose they >fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other >such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process for >making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Douglas Quebbeman" <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM >Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes >from a >> > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and >> > Europe. >> >> heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 >> into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors >> Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. >> >> -dq >> >> > >

23 years, 5 months

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9-track tape to dispose of

by mtapley＠swri.edu

All, ....and then there's the rest of the tape. Miles and miles of 9-track tapes are stacked in my office and I want my office back. I rescued about 1/3 of the to-dispose pile, the rest went to the dumpster. If I'm industrious, I may try ebaying this if you guys don't want it, but I'd rather it go to a classic-comp-er. If I'm not industrious, I'll dumpster it when I need my office bad enough. Mostly Scotch Black Watch 700 or 777 tape, mostly 12-inch reels, but lots of Memorex and smaller reels available too. Practically all is 6250 or 1600 cpi certified. A variety of closures, mostly the plastic rings and hangers. Write-enable rings mostly in place. The first 2 orders will get a bonus black 3-tape carrying case with nice webbing straps to hold it closed and serve as a handle. I have around 400 of these tapes, so please do not be shy about how many you request, at least within the constraints of your shipping budget. - Mark

23 years, 5 months

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4 Dec RA-60P Disk packs to get rid of.

by mtapley＠swri.edu

All, More interesting media to get rid of from San Antonio, Texas. This is a stack of 4 DEC RA-60P disk packs, in their carrying cases, and one extra carrying case (that pack is probably still in the drive, wherever it is). Media look to be in OK shape physically, but may be dirty inside. Contact me at mtapley(a)swri.edu or phone (210)-522-6025 to arrange pack/ship. - Mark

23 years, 5 months

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Convex 9-track tapes, incl. very early perl.

by mtapley＠swri.edu

All, I have a stack of Convex 9-track tapes for somebody to make disappear by paying for boxing/shipping or by picking up, from San Antonio, Texas. Included in the stack are: 7 inch diameter reels: Convex Veclib USA V4.0 Dec 13 1988 Convex Veclib V5.0 Jan 31 1990 Convex COVUEdt V1.2 Aug 7 1990 Convex COVUEdt V1.1 Aug 22 1989 Convex CXbatch V1.1 Jun 12 1990 Convex C Compiler V4.0 Jul 19 1990 Convex C Compiler V3.0 Dec 28 1989 Convex OS PatchV8.0.1 Mar 6 1990 Convex OS V8.1 (C1) Jul 19 1990 Convex OS V8.0 (C1) Jan 31 1990 Convex CXBatch V2.0 Dec 22 1990 Convex Fortran V6.0 Jun 12 1990 Convex Fortran V5.1.1.0 Aug 22 1989 Convex 1990 User Group May 10 1990 Utilities v1.0 Jul 19 1990 user grp 1991 Jul 10 1991 tape hand-labelled "bind stuff" tape hand-labelled "SNMP source" tape hand-labelled "8.0 patches 3-15-90" ****** tape hand-labelled "Convex user group tape mh (v6.4) perl v1.29 from lwall@devvax:jpl.nasa.gov." ****** 11 inch diameter reel: ConvexOS V8.0 Jan 31, 1990 Tapes are generally Memorex, all have the gold Convex label on them. None have been tested probably for decades, and I'm pretty sure they were stored in warehouses in San Antonio. They look to be in good physical shape. ATTENTION Convex computer representatives! If there is any reason I should not make these tapes available, please notify me at the below addres and I will comply with your wishes. Any interested parties should contact me at mtapley(a)swri.edu, or by phone at (210)-522-6025. Questions welcome, offers to ship more welcome. I can't keep them for very long. - Mark

23 years, 5 months

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Indeed, it may have been a mech sample. I have DEC DCT-310s with ES written on them, they were actual engineering samples for the VT240 team (near same time as Falcon card develpoment). Mine came from when the Engineering junkbox. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >I've got one pretty old MOTOROLA device, in a 40-pin DIP, the identity of which >is a complete mystery to me. In fact, I may have tossed it not long ago, but >all it said on it aside from a MOT date code was "Sample." Maybe it was a >mechanincal ... > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" <ajp166(a)bellatlantic.net> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 6:38 AM >Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> From: John Galt <gmphillips(a)earthlink.net> >> >> >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. >> > >> >However, there are a few collectors who have been >> >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather >> >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. >> >> >> My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that >> look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. >> >> >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found >> >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. >> >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would >> >have already seen one. >> >> >> These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board >> was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering >> junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively >> traded >> survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). >> >> >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color >> >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal >> >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, >> >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact >> >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >> >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is >> >it's a late run C8080A that was >> >> >> It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a >> few >> vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and >> Europe. >> It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also >> a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing >> (military, >> space or other high stress apps). >> >> Ceramic aging/dating: >> >> Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. >> >> early White >> >> examples were >> early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) >> 1101, 1103 ram >> 1702 eprom >> >> first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s >> >> brown (light) >> later dark brown >> Gray >> Gray with brownish cast >> Gray with purplish cast >> >> Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common >> ceramic of the time. >> >> Allison >> >> >> >> >> >> >

23 years, 5 months

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

>heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 >into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors >Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. > >-dq I know but, in reference to collectable chips it was true to the most part. I just didn't want to wear out the list with minute details. Allison

23 years, 5 months

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as having > too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that was, > in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose they > fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other > such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process for > making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq

23 years, 5 months

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Analog recorder rack to give away quickly

by mtapley＠swri.edu

All, SwRI is scrapping a big analog recorder rack. Top end contains a reel-to-reel recorder with big (ie around 24" diameter) tape reels. Model number looks like EB-3030 or EP-3030. Bottom end of the rack contains a row of Ampex "Monitor Oscilloscope" devices, what looks like an amplifier/signal conditioning box, labelled "Datum tape search and control unit", and a "Datum Time code Generator" with day/hour/min/sec readout. To go with this is a big *heavy* stack of the tapes it uses. Yours for shipping or pickup from San Antonio, Texas. I have digital pictures, 4 jpegs at about 500k each, if you want to see better or want to web-host, and I can go check specifics if you have specific questions. I need a commitment this week if you want it, though, as we need the space, else we have to trash/recycle. Please contact me off-list, I'm way behind on reading my digests. I'm at mtapley(a)swri.edu, or phone (210)-522-6025. - Mark

23 years, 5 months

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Corvus Floppy Drive?

by fmc＠reanimators.org

"Curt Vendel" <curt(a)atari-history.com> wrote: (Re: Corvus floppy disk controllers) > If you run across the schematic I would be willing to pay for any copying > and postage, thanks again Frank. Take a look at: http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d300.tiff http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d600.tiff Both are TIFF class F group 4 scans, one is at 300 DPI, one is at 600 DPI. The "original" that I have is a crappy photocopy so, well, good luck reading them. I'll talk to Al and see if he wants to adopt these or point me to a better scan. The 8" floppy controller also has a space on the board for a 34-pin connector, but it's not stuffed. I got this controller and schematic from an advertisement in Computer Shopper in the mid-to-late 1980s, offering an 8" floppy controller for the Apple ][. Sadly, at the time I didn't have a WDC 1793 data sheet so my efforts at programming the thing were frustrated and I got distracted by other things. Then there's the 5.25" floppy drive. I got that out too and had a look at it. The drive is a Corvus model FLP-5, Rev C, s/n 404-G1018-. It's a metal upright case screwed together and to a half-height 5.25" floppy drive, in this case a TEC FB504 (which is a double-sided "quad density" 720KB drive, so I'm guessing 96 tracks per inch) strapped for DS0 and with terminating resistor pack installed. The 5.25" drive is connected to a different controller. The silkscreen on the board calls it a "BUFFERED FLOPPY CONTROLLER", and there's a handwritten part number, "8010-10149 REV A". It's laid out differently and is clearly a different design: it's got a NEC D765AC FDC, and also has a power connector through which the controller card supplies power to the drive; the power cable and a 34-pin flat cable are bundled together in a sort of plastic zip-lock wrapper. I've no idea what this 5.25" drive was used with. Along about 1996 there were some cleanouts of cupboards and storage rooms at The Wollongong Group (where I worked at the time), and there was this drive and controller (which I got) and a Corvus hard disk (which I didn't get). I didn't see a Concept there. I do know that several folks came from Corvus to Wollongong in the mid-1980s (before I got there) and guess that they brought this stuff with them. -Frank McConnell

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Not to create an issue, but under Windows, that doesn't often > happen, though > it's possible, I guess. <ducks to avoid flames> What could > be going on? You do realize that you ought to be comparing Mac system 7.x with Windows 3.1? Granted, the OS was frozen in that state for a very long time, but originally, that was its primary alternative. Windows 3.1 is not famous for being a real-time system, either ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > however. I tried to > initialize a diskette, and had to wait about 5 minutes after > the process ended > before it would let me do anything else, though it did > eventually let me back at > it. That's pretty normal. It will take it a while to flush buffers and wake back up -- rather, that's what I assume it's doing... :) > Funny thing, though, is that I remember people claiming that > MAC OS was > multitasking. Windows allows me to play a game or whatever > when I start off on > a time-consuming task. This guy doesn't seem to want to do > that. I had to try > it on the second machine just to verify that the thing was > not just bum > hardware. It worked the same on the second box as well. This gets really tangled right about now. What's your deffinition of multitasking? Is the hardware capable of it? Yes. The software? Well, It's co-operative. If you'd asked microsoft about their definition before Abomination '95, they'd have told you that co-operative multitasking is still multitasking too... I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to be a "left-over" from early days. Funny thing is that if you can find a file-manager or the like that will format disks/copy files, it's pretty likely that you can work around this particular problem. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: gwynp(a)artware.qc.ca [mailto:gwynp@artware.qc.ca] > You're best bet is to buy a Mac Addict or other magazine that > has a CD-ROM > (you do have a CD drive?). Older Macs don't "boot-strap" > very well. Yes, > you can get a SEA (self-extracting archive) of Stuffit, but > it won't do > you much good. Mac OS has 2 forks per file. One for data, the other > for code. When you download a file or when you copy a file from a PC > formated disk everything goes into the data fork. Doing something > equivalent to "chmod +x file.sea" is impossible on Mac OS without an > external program, like say Stuffit. *sigh* If you are > lucky, you'll have > a recent version of Mac OS which includes Stuffit. Well, if you'd like a home-baked solution (possibly home half-baked. :), you can write Macintosh 1.4 meg disks on a peesee type machine (or unix box). I can possibly provide code for an hfs loadable module for linux, and a rather generic set of c programs that will read/write mac filesystems. With that software, and an archive that you can extract the stuffit binary from, you'd be able to write the proper resource fork to the disk as well, and have the macintosh know what to do with your program. > I find this to be one of the most incredible "features" of > Mac OS. Apart > from that, as long as you have a real computer nearby, using > a Mac isn't > that bad. I feel the need to defend this "feature." In so much as this allows you to separate data from code, this is a wonderful idea. The problem, really, is that apple left their o/s unfinished, and didn't include the proper utilities to manipulate these things that the system depends so heavily upon. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 5 months

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Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and > Europe. heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. -dq

23 years, 5 months

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Auction

by auction888＠sohu.com

Guangzhou Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is going to be wholly auctioned at the company lobby on 28th November 2001 because of reformation of town-owned enterprises. Occupying 4000 mu, standing aside the mouth of Pearl River and with convenient transportation, Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is ranked as an Essential Well-plan Spot and Important Sign Seeing Resort in Guangzhou's Ninth Five-year plan. Besides having wonderful tour environment of living, holiday, tourism and entertainment it also has potential development of real easte. The resort is evaluated over RMB 170 million and will be auctioned starting at 50% of evaluation price,I,e,RMB85,000,000.The auction method will be Holland style (from high to low). Please contact our company for auction registration with valid certificate. Contact telephone£º(86-20)84816037 (86-20)84811117 E-mail:auction@ciaa.com.cn Address£º602 No.45 Fanhua Road, Shiqiao Town, Panyu,Guangzhou,China URL: www.ciaa.com.cn GUANGZHOU PANYU AUCTION LTD.

23 years, 5 months

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Mattell football 2 1978

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 11/18/2001 9:37:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, gehrich(a)tampabay.rr.com writes: << At 08:50 PM 11/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? for what platform? >> I'm sure he's talking a handheld game.

23 years, 5 months

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No subject

by news＠kostecke.net

Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp Path: gateway From: allain(a)panix.com (John Allain) Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Date: 19 Nov 01 14:05:09 GMT Sender: Steve Kostecke <steve(a)kostecke.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <004801c17103$330b3e60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> X-Priority: 3 Distribution: local X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org X-Mailing-List: classiccmp X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org didn't match any local name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 11 References: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus(a)canit.se> Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org using -f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? One respondant doesn't represent the whole list, as you are now learning. If you are new here then welcome. John A. If you aren't, then my apologies.

23 years, 5 months

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No subject

by news＠kostecke.net

Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp Path: gateway From: gmphillips(a)earthlink.net (John Galt) Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Date: 19 Nov 01 12:34:44 GMT Sender: Steve Kostecke <steve(a)kostecke.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <002d01c170f6$92a86620$0100a8c0@sys1> X-Priority: 3 Distribution: local X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org X-Mailing-List: classiccmp X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org didn't match any local name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 61 References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10111182221240.14482-100000(a)siconic.com> Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org using -f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a rather small community of chip collectors. However, there are a few collectors who have been collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. These collectors have pretty much seen everything. Its pretty rare now that something shows up that these collectors have never seen before and the fact that they have never seen it, by definiton makes it rare. It would be the same as if suddenly someone found two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would have already seen one. As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they used for some of the later C8085AH's. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:23 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's > > Do you care to explain this? > > It certainly doesn't look purple in the photo. > > How do you know it is only one of two? Known by whom? Where do they come > from? If it is purple, why? What's the significance? > > > If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors > > laying around, I want them. > > Sorry, I'm keeping mine. If I wanted them to end up on eBay I'd put them > there myself. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >

23 years, 5 months

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Tape drives claimed, thanks much.

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

All three tape drives (both 9-trackers and the Giagstore) have been spoken for. My thanks to all those who mailed in about them, and to the list participants for bearing with my ad(s). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk)

23 years, 5 months

1
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(no subject)

by JLYoda＠aol.com

Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978?

23 years, 5 months

4
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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by jruschme＠Mac.com

> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:13:51 -0700 > From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without > breaking > it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does > anybody > have a recipe for doing that? I think I saw someone offer you the service manual. If not, contact me off-line for a copy (pdf). In short, on the underside of the front bezel are two tabs. You need to use a large flat screwdriver, in a twistint motion, to release them. At that point, the whole front should come off. The hard drive is behind a shield under the floppy drive. IIRC, you need to remove one screw to remove the shield. The drive is on a sled with a release tab. > Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've set > aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to > assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, Inc. > didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else > rather > than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) True for SCSI drives. Oddly enough, Apple's Drive Setup will deal with pretty much any IDE drive. I > note, > also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether > there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the system > (logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI > drives. The problem is, that in the 630 series, the only internal connectors to the SCSI chain are in the CD-ROM bay. Better to stay with IDE drives internally (nothing to stop you from an external SCSI drive). > Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE > drives? You're limited to PIO mode 3 (max). Also, Western Digital drives over about 1.2GB don't seem to work correctly. Mine has a 3GB Seagate drive, though it came to me with a 600mb WD drive and I briefly installed a 500mb Quantum. The big thing you need is a copy of Drive Setup. > It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be > adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet > activity. Hmm... I think that's a matter of perspective. MacOS and a browser will fit well enough. Just not a lot of room left for downloads, etc. <<<John>>>

23 years, 5 months

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BC16D-25 cable, what's that?

by gunther＠aurora.regenstrief.org

Hi, I have a big pile of DEC BC16D-25 cable. It has one Centronics like connector on each end. The connectors have 36 pins. I have absolutely no clue what these cables are for. They came with my recent VAX treck that included a VAX6000 cluster and a DEC Server 90. If you know what this cable is used for or if you want it, please let me know. I have at least one or 2 dozen of those. If nobody wants it I'll probably have to throw it out. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow(a)regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org

23 years, 5 months

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Votrax

by r.stek＠snet.net

Ed - I think I may be able to help. I have several units - a Type 'N Talk and a Personal Speech System. Which model do you have? If it's the TNT, here is an online manual: http://members.tripod.com/werdav/txtospm1.html If it's the PSS, I'll need a few days to dig it out. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols

23 years, 5 months

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Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest?

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

Would you be willing to post a digital pic or two? I know someone who may be able to use these as spares for his system, if they're from the right equipment. -dq > Speaking of CDC, among the junk I'm cleaning out of my basement there's a > partial backplane out > of an old CDC something-or-other, connected to a panel with 2 > AC outlets > (Monitor & Data Set), a fuse and a DB25 for the Data Set. > There's also an > acoustic delay line and a large resistor/diode > matrix board which I think came from the same piece. Maybe a 60's era > terminal??? > > 3 rows of cards; the two top rows A & B have 25 slots for 4 > 1/2x6", double > sided 31 edge > connectors cards, some with 10 test points along the edge and each > populated with one or two > dozen gold 10 pin TO5 cans marked M (as in Motorola) 115, > 116, 117, 118 > with what I assume are > date codes like 6624, 6644, and 6636. > > The bottom row, C, 32 slots, contains a few smaller cards with pin > connectors that appear to be > some kind of programming cards, just containing jumper wires. > > Anybody recognize these and maybe even have a use for a card > or two, or can > I throw them out > without feeling guilty? > > mike > > >

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

> as long as you have a real computer nearby BWAAAA-HAAA-HAA-HAAA!!! >What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not >classic)? The list goes on and on. Check www.lowendmac.com for some pointers... but basically, it can do pretty much everything a "regular" home user would want. Internet, basic office work, graphics, games (albeit, if you want REAL gaming, buy a console or a "toy" computer that uses Windows). >I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on >older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. The 660AV will also allow you to do video in/out, and some video editing (with the right software). -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 5 months

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Cypher F880 docs anywhere? (and anyone .uk with spare tapes?)

by classiccmp＠knm.yi.org

Hi guys, I've got a Cypher F880 tape drive here, and I was wondering if the docs made it onto the net anywhere :&) As an aside - I don't have any tapes - so if there's anyone in the UK with some tapes I could have, I'd be most grateful :&) Thanks, -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>This box has been at it (rebuilding desktop file) since 2:30 this >afternoon and >hasn't yet finished booting. I suspect there's a problem, as it >previously took >only a minute or two. It won't let me do anything other than shut down. >I've >rebooted it once, and it simply went back to what is was doing, which doesn't >seem to be leading anywhere. Are you actually seeing a message "Rebuilding desktop on drive ---"? You shouldn't get that just at boot time unless the desktop database is corrupt (or unless you instructed it to rebuild by holding command and option before the desktop was shown). If it is hung while trying to rebuild (you should hear the hard drive clicking, and the progress bar should be moving... may be slowly, but it should move... a 250mb drive, even fully loaded on a 68k machine shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to rebuild). So... if it is hung, and you rebooted the machine, and it hung AGAIN... then chances are REALLY REALLY good your drive format is damaged. The best bet here, reformat the drive (and run the test on it to verify the drive itself is not bad). Or, since you want to upgrade the drive... just do that and don't worry about the 250 at all. If on the other hand, you are just hung during boot (little icons going across the bottom of the screen, Welcome to Macintosh splash screen is still showing)... then you probably have a bad extension. Reboot the computer, and right after you hear the BONG, hold down the shift key until you see "Welcome To Macintosh Extensions Disabled" on the screen (the extensions disabled will be written below the welcome to mac). Then it should finish booting normally. You can try doing a restart after that (special menu, choose Restart), but it might hang again. Better choice, go to the Apple menu, go to Control Panels, go to Extension Manager, choose "Base" from the popup. Again, this problem will go away if you reformat and reinstall the OS. (I really really think you should just do that before you mess with the machines anymore... it will save you a bundle of heartache... at the VERY least, run Disk First Aid, and let it repair the disk if needed... and then do a clean install of the OS) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>No offense, but I have no plan to become "MAC-Literate" beyond the point of >ensuring the basic health of these two computers before I give them away >to some >poor, unsuspecting person who has access to MAC help and less such access to >competent PC help. hehe, yeah, but that mac is so damn easy to learn, you may become "mac-literate" by accident just in your quick use. >Since one of the people to whom I'm planning to give one of >these is a single woman who volunteers at the women's shelter where I have >been >a volunteer for about a decade, I don't want her to be tying up my phone, or, >worse, getting the wrong impression about my intentions, as she also works at >the school where my boys went a few years back, which is the first place I >met >her. Though it's no secret I'm not married, I've already got all the women I >need, plus about 10% (exactly one). Definitly just reformat and start from scratch then. If you are giving them away, no sense even messing around trying to get the software working as it. Reformat, reinstall, and hand them off knowing they will work fine when YOU give them away. >While it's a generous offer, I'll try to get by with the CD's I've got on >hand >for now, as those are accompanied with the registrations, documentation that >comes with these boxes, etc, and I'd like everything at least to appear to >be on >the up-and-up, copyright-law-wise. Whereas I may sometimes play things >fast-and-loose with "borrowed" software, etc, I'd prefer not to promulgate >those >attitudes and practices into the new-user community where they might be seen >differently than I see them. Actually, System 7.5.5 is freely available from Apple's web site. So if you have the tools, you can make a bootable OS install disk yourself, and distribute it with the Mac, safely, and legally. I assume you DON'T have the tools (like another Mac with a CD burner and a copy of Toast), so if you want one, I will make one for you and mail it over to you (free of charge, since it will really only cost me less than a buck a disk with postage). >BTW, what does the "Backup" function do? It seems to want to copy things to >floppies, but can it also copy things to an external SCSI drive? How >about to a >SCSI tape? UGH... no, that means the machines probably didn't come with a restore CD. To cut costs with the performa line, apple stopped shipping them with install disks. Instead, they made a little "Backup" program, and you were supposed to purchase a box (a big box, since it needs like 25 or 50) of disks, and run the backup program. It would then create the install disks for you, to hang on to until the day you needed to reinstall. Annoying to say the least. Unfortuantly, the backup program will ONLY write to floppies, so you can't hook up a scsi tape drive and go to that (besides, the Mac has no built in drivers for a tape drive, so you would need software like Retrospect to access it anyway). I can probably hunt down a set of install disks for the Performa 630 (I might actually have such already, I have to see if I got the original software with one of them that I recovered) if you need them. Sounds like you might already have the original software CDs. If one is called Software Restore, then you are good to go, but that backup program makes me think you don't have it (I think I have one for a Performa 638CD, which is basically the same machine, slightly different bundle). If I have it, I can always make you two copies of it (again, since you have the machine they go to, there should be nothing legally wrong with getting copies from me). -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 5 months

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Data General One Portable Printer

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Here is a nice DG1 Portable printer, 3 hours to go, currently $9.95. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1297127236&r=0&t=0& showTutorial=0&ed=1006078740&indexURL=0&rd=1 Paxton

23 years, 5 months

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Marmite

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Nov 9, 20:42, Sipke de Wal wrote: > Marmite is a kinda fermented soya molasses that > you can spread on a cheese-sandwich. I suppose it has a consistency something like molasses (certainly more like that than like pate) but it contains neither molasses nor soya. It's almost all yeast extract (leftover from brewing, originally). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

> With a >half-GB HDD, which was "stock" with the '630, Actually the 630 came stock with a 250mb drive. The 631 had the 500mb. Others in the 63x series had either 250's or 350's. >I've got to say this was a >MINIMALLY equipped computer, though the popular functions all seem to be >there. >I'm not at all certain how they (Apple) got all that functionality out of the >clearly limited resources. That is because, up until OS 8, the Mac OS needed very little to run. When compared to Windows, the MacOS was AMAZINGLY fast, stable, and compact. OS 8 changed the RAM requirements because it moved the Mac ROM >from the logic board, to the hard drive (and thus, into RAM when the OS was running). This caused a spike in the OS RAM requirements. (7.5.5 can run in 4mb, 7.6 in 8mb but 8.0 jumps to 32mb) >I do believe >the typical PC of the time had a larger (14") monitor IIRC, the entire performa color screen line came a 14" monitor (various revision, but all were 14... the 630 was probably the Performa Plus display). So the larger monitor point isn't really valid. >yet overall system cost >was about 20% less than this model. Yup.. ok, ya got me there. This was during the fairly obvious days of Mac's being more expensive for what you got out of it (20% ?, you are being nice) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>Right now, one of the two boxes is sitting, and has been for several hours, >trying to reconstruct the work surface, or whatever it's called. It doesn't >look as though it needs that service, but the machine won't go beyond that >point. It's about 4:45 now and it's been at it since about 2:30. I'm >inclined >to try a backup on the other machine, if that's possible. Sounds like you may have a problem with the OS. Unless you know the direct history of these machines (ie: you know everything that has been run and installed on them), I would recommend you reformat and reinstall the OS from scratch. Sitting waiting for the Finder do come up is definatly NOT normal. You mentioned in a previous post that you had problems with the mouse cursor freezing for a while, and then coming back... that shouldn't happen, and the fact that it does really tells me you have something wrong. Could be an extension conflict, could be a virus, could be a corrupt file. But since you aren't a very mac literate person (yet... once you start using it, you will catch on fast), you are best off just wiping the drive and installing the OS from scratch. You can download System 7.5.5 from Apple's web site, or if you want it on a bootable CD, let me know, I will be happy to send you one. If you have the CD that came with the Mac, it should let you totally restore the drive to factory settings... unfortunatly, I don't recall if the Performa 630 came with a restore CD or not (I know earlier performa's did not, I am just not sure if apple started supplying it when they started shipping ones with internal CDs). If you DO have a restore CD for that machine, then I would recommend you just run it. That will put you back to a fresh, stable environment, with some basic applications that you can use. >From there, you can move to more advanced stuff. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 11/17/2001 10:36:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, gwynp(a)artware.qc.ca writes: << What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k version of MSIE is something of a challenge. -Philip >> What's the use of an old mac? I guess you haven't played crystal quest on a mac plus yet! heh.

23 years, 5 months

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In search of...5.25" faceplate & mount for WangDAT 3100 or 3200

by rhblakeman＠kih.net

I figure with the "stuff" people in this group latch onto someone might have one of these. I presently have a WangDAT 3200 (2/4gb DDS1 tape) drive with the narrow faceplate and I want to put it into the external SCSI case I have now with my other 3200. Problem being that it's the 3.5" mount and that it won't really go into a 5.25 to 3.5" adapter as it's as tall as a 5.25" half height drive desoite it being only 3.5" wide. That basically makes it 1.5x as tall as a normal 3.5" floppy drive - no go for a regular adapter. Both Mountain and WangDAT made an adapter for 5.25" for these 2 drives specifically consisting of a 5.25" faceplate and two 3.5" to 5.25" side brackets (about the same as a standard adapter has). If anyone has a JUNK 3100 or 3200 drive around they want to get rid of, parts or left overs from one or even a spare good drive (3100 or 3200) they want to sell cjeap then drop me a direct note or on the list. I will contact you direct. If you have a drive with the 5.25" face and want to swap to the smaller 3.5" then that works too as I have an extra 3.5" faceplate I can mail out in advance. Thanks in advance.

23 years, 5 months

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OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa?

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without >breaking >it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does >anybody >have a recipe for doing that? This is going off memory of upgrading a 6360 (same case design)... if you want exact, I can email again on Monday when I am in front of a 630. To remove the logic board: On the back, there are two plastic tabs, push them lightly, remove the plastic face plate. Remove the two screws on either side under the face plate. Pull on the handle, the board will slide out. To remove drives: Flip the unit over, look at the front, you will see two push tabs holding the front face plate on. Push the tabs, remove the plate. The drives are on sleds, to remove a drive, push the locking tab on the sled, remove sled and drive. >Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've >set >aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to >assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, >Inc. >didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else >rather >than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) I >note, >also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether >there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the >system >(logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI >drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE >drives? There is no room in the case to add a 2nd internal drive, and running cables to replace the IDE with SCSI will be a bitch. Also, if you use SCSI, you are limited to using Apple approved drives, or you need 3rd party formating software (or a hacked version of apple's software). If you stick with IDE, you can use any drive you want, of any size you want (I am almost 100% positive apple has no problems using drives larger than 8gig on 68k machines... but you might want to double check before buying a 40 gig and hoping to use it... of course there are OS limitations on the size of a partition on older versions of the OS, don't remember details right now). Either way, you are safe to stick an older multi gig IDE drive into the 630 without a problem. Apple's software will recognize it just fine. Just remember that 68k machines can't use HFS+ formatting, so keep your drive partitions under 4 gig, or you will be wasting TONS of space on the drive. >It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be >adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet >activity. Actually, internet activity is probably what will be happiest on the 250mb drive. I think you are thinking Windows size applications. For Email you can use Eudora or Emailer (both about 3mb), Web can be iCab (about 3mb and actively under development). Fetch 3.0 has a 68k version that is about 2mb for FTP. And a plethora of other 68k friendly internet software (check www.macorchard.com). Throw in a copy of AppleWorks 5, and you have decent office apps. (or go all out with things like Nisus Writer, FileMaker Pro 3 or 4, not sure on spreadsheet but there are good options). If you make a mild attempt to lead a Microsoft free life, you will be AMAZED at the stability, small size, and speed of applications out there... all that are just as good (and in most cases BETTER). If you need to talk to MS documents, just grab a copy of MacLink Plus (although, the latest versions are PPC only, so getting access to the latest MS doc formats on a 68k machine can be a bit trickier... but still doable without too much effort). If you have 1 or 2 gig IDE drives sitting around anyway, why not use them. More important than upgrading the drive in my book would be to deck out the 630 with RAM by adding a 32mb chip. Once you have the ram, you can run OS 8.1 if you would like (in my opinion, it runs smoother and faster than 7.6.1, and is more stable than 7.5.5... but YMMV). OS 8.1 opens you up to even more good 68k software. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 5 months

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HP 3000 No More (legacy)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Nov 17, 16:51, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to > sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and > buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT > architecture discontinued? Real Soon Now, according to people who still have them on support. Or about 1995, (yes, that's two '9's there) according to the copyright on the PCB etch of the memory board in the PDP-8/E I recently acquired :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 5 months

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