- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by DAW＠yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu

This is the whole list. The room has to be emptied _today_, so I can bring stuff home with me, if you want to get it later in the day. I'll try to take home any of the smaller unclaimed stuff to store. Again, everything is in unknown, untested condition; as-is. Let me know by around 5:00 pm eastern time... > ---------- > From: David Woyciesjes > > We're cleaning here, and got some stuff being tossed. > > Free, Come pick it up... > > 12 old modems - Gandalf LDS125 (?) > about 12 (?) dozen tape reels. 12" diameter. They're in 4 15" monitor > boxes... -1 box is probably taken... > 2 HP LaserJet IID, with duplex - Taken? > 1 HP LaserJet IIID, w/ duplex - taken? > some long comms(?) cables > Epson line printers > CSU/DSU > -- > And here's more stuff... 2 Topaz Powermaker UPSs 1, maybe 2 Datability Vista terminal servers 1, maybe 2 Delnis Digital DECRepeater 350 DeskJet 500 DeskJet Plus VT220 VT420 Radius 21" (?) monchrome monitor -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash

24 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

dec Lab Modules

by cdl＠proxima.ucsd.edu

> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:22:21 -0400 (EDT) > From: Doug Salot <doug(a)blinkenlights.com> > To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: dec Lab Modules > In-Reply-To: <200204240417.g3O4HZQ23049(a)shell1.aracnet.com> > > I think he's asking about "laboratory modules" -- the *original* DEC > products from 1957 or so. You snapped the lab modules into a power > backplane (power supply was one of the "DEC Building Blocks") and > connected the logic elements via patch cords. > > The power pins aren't documented in my 1960 dec logic handbook, and they > don't seem to be documented in Bell's "Computer Engineering" either, so I > assume you need to find a "DEC Building Blocks" technical bulletin or > reverse engineer one of the lab modules -- this might help: > > http://www.ulib.org/webRoot/Books/Saving_Bell_Books/Computer_Engineering/00… I have here in my hands a 4-page "Specifications/Prices" sheet that is titled "DEC Digital Test Equipment" and covers the building blocks. But not in enough detail to determin pinouts. It is dated November 1958. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu

24 years, 4 months

1
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Most of the software in use in the UNIX world is free. Of course > > there ARE commercial packages, but...with very few exceptions, for > > every commercial package there's at least one free one that does the > > job as well or better. It's possible that I'm preaching to the choir > > here, but one of the common misconceptions that really bugs me is the > > notion that "unix == expensive", when in reality it's just the > > opposite. (The same goes for "pc vs. real computers" in the "I use a > > PC because I can't afford a Sun or an Alpha" case...) > > That's not been my experience. In fact, until LINUX, which I don't presently > use either, I had never seen any software of any use at all other than for > software development for UNIX. (This response is going to sound snotty, but I don't mean it that way) This is likely because you've not been looking in the right places, and have been (ahem) solidly mired in the world of commercial proprietary Windows stuff. > The EDA stuff I saw was not terribly useful, > but some folks managed to beat it into submission. I can't forget the There is a shortage in that area, but there are useful tools. I'm using some of them in another window right now...I'm designing a battery charger for a portable microcontroller-based system in one window and have a PCB layout tool ready to roll in another window. And I have the source code for all of it, even the operating system they're running under. And I paid $0 for the software and maybe $150 for the hardware. One can pay through the nose for functionality. One can even pay list price for all of one's hardware and buy it all brandie-new. It's just not very smart. ;) > tradeshow when I ruled out UNIX in my mind. A vendor had > essentially the same software for DOS and UNIX. The UNIX version > cost 50x what the DOS version cost, and the hardware also cost over > 10x the cost of an adequate PC. The two software packages "looked > and felt" as well as worked, indistinguishably once one was inside > the application. Oh, I don't doubt it for a second...but again you're speaking of commercial software. UNIX and commercial software don't get along very well, because commercial software goes very much against the whole UNIX thing. It's like using a PC as a network server...you *can* do it, but it won't work very well, it's not a very good idea, and you'll look like an idiot in the process. ;) > The FPGA/CPLD vendors would like to support everybody who's likely to use > their products. However, support is a problem under UNIX, since there are > numerous versions (I've had several) that lack compatibility. The size of the > market doesn't justify working up a freeware version for every UNIX version > though, so I think they're wise avoiding the expense. LINUX is getting some > support, though. Writing the software portably eliminates that problem completely. The world of Windows software development completely ignores portability. The common software in the UNIX world doesn't have a "version for every UNIX version". That's just not the way it works. > and, for the most part, the freeware is often better than the commercial > products. I've seen little "source-available" freeware that was very good, > however. The LINUX stuff is a good example. Much of the code sits, full of > ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, among comments relevant only to the > original code that was abandoned six or seven revisions back, though it's not > obvious. It's a wonder any of it works, but it seems it does. It's unlikely > there'll ever be UNIX/GNU freeware that's as useable as the comparable > DOS/Windows stuff, though, since what looks to be the case is that nobody > wants to document the UNIX/GNU freeware. Linux is a mess no matter how you slice it, mostly thrown together by script kiddies with no experience whatsoever...it's a bad idea to judge the entire UNIX world on the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of Linux, because as even the Linux people are fond of pointing out, Linux isn't UNIX. I'm not trying to be argumentative with you, and I respect your experience...please understand that I'm trying to point out that the world of computers is very different from the world of Windows computers...things are, well, just done differently. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den

24 years, 4 months

9
10
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Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format))

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

I figured it might be IBM as they did some odd things over the years. Another that comes to mind is Interdata (not the 8/32), any one know on that one. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, April 22, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) >> 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > >Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're >right about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, >and 18 Bit integers. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen >http://www.vcfe.org/

24 years, 4 months

2
1
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Emulex UC04 SCSI controller for MicroVAX

by DAW＠yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu

> From: Florian Mayer > > Hi folks, > > I've got an Emulex UC04 and would like to use it in my MicroVAX II. Where > can I find documentation for it? > > Greetings from Germany, > > Flori > > Which reminds me. I have an Emulex "UC07/08 distribution panel" sitting on my shelf here. Anybody want it? -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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Open source -- non computer topics

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > Nobody wants to deny or minimize that. Most of us recognize > that he has > become an egotistical, inflexible loon. Thanks Doc. I'm not sure I could have put that any better. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> > > Minis excluded, I guess the TRS-80 ;) > > > Err, graphical web browser ? (Wave on the Cpmmies). > > Actually, I was joking around. That aside, I wouldn't be > surprised at all. Have you seen Tandy's "Deskmate" on the > CoCo? It's not GEOS, but it's pretty nice for the time, > with half decent graphical file management, etc, and runs > over the OS/9 kernel. For the truly devoted, I have a copy of PC-LINK for Deskmate. Copyright 1988 by America Online, Inc. -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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1961 Vintage Computer Memory Book Item # 2018895703

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2018895703>

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format )

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: blacklord [mailto:blacklord@telstra.com] > > Minis excluded, I guess the TRS-80 ;) > Err, graphical web browser ? (Wave on the Cpmmies). Actually, I was joking around. That aside, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Have you seen Tandy's "Deskmate" on the CoCo? It's not GEOS, but it's pretty nice for the time, with half decent graphical file management, etc, and runs over the OS/9 kernel. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

dec Lab Modules

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Do the modules look like they'd plug into a Q-Bus or Unibus backplane? If so they can't be much older than about 35 years old I believe (if that). DEC itself I was started in '58, IIRC. Joe's book might have some of the info you need, there are a whole slew of Logic Handbooks from the late 60's through the late 70's (towards the end they changed the name). Zane > > John, > > This is a hell of a coincidence! I JUST posted the message below to a >fellow CC Lister. The book is dated 1971 so it may not cover what you're >looking for IF your modules are really 45 years old. Unfortunately the >book is really more of a catalog so there's little pin out info except >for some of the flip chip modules. > > > "I found a copy of "Digital Logic Handbook 1971" while cleaning around >here today. Digital as in Digital Equipement Corp. Need it? It seems to >be a data book of modules (M series Logic Modules, W series Special Purpose >Logic Boards, A series Analog modules, Lab Series and K Series Control Logic >modules, etc." > > Joe > > > At 10:46 PM 4/23/02 -0400, you wrote: > >Anyone have information on this product series? > >The 'dec Lab Modules' are 45 years old so on > >topic. What I'm looking for is the pin assignment > >for the backplane (only 5 jacks at this stage) > >All I know is that -15v,+10v,+10v and -3v are > >supposed to go in (I think) but I don't know where. > > > >John A. > > > > > > >

24 years, 4 months

3
2
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WordStar (was RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

by Robert_Feldman＠jdedwards.com

By the time WS for Win came out, it was hardly the same company, and certainly not an equivalent program to WS 3.3. The program I use is NewWord, which was written by some of the main WS programmers after they were fired by MicroPro and started their own company to provide a WS for Morrow computers. NW was written in assembly language like the early WS versions. http://www.petrie.u-net.com/wordstar/history/history.htm -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:33 PM To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) >Well, there's always WordStar for Windows or Lotus SmartSuite or >WordPerfect Office. I was always a Wordstar fan, and have a couple of versions here still, but Wordstar for Windows was horrible! Jeff

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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Open source -- non computer topics

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Underwood [mailto:nemesis-lists@icequake.net] > It's not just "garbage". There is a reason for it, that the majority ... and the reason is completely political, which makes it garbage in my book. Not that I mean any disrespect to the Debian people; they have probably the best Linux distribution going, and I recommend it to anyone who asks. > of the Debian community agrees with, or it wouldn't be done. > Plain and I hope that's correct. Since I have probably less exposure to "the Debian community" than you, I'll take your word for it. > simple. I'm sure you are already aware of the reasons, but > reject them. I am aware of the reasons, yes, but not the reasoning. That is, I've heard the arguments, and they make no sense to me. On another note, I'll all for giving recognition to the GNU project, but I find Stallman's demanding it in that form to be tasteless. > What you label "garbage" are the very attributes that many > Debian members > hold dear. Probably exactly why I stay away from "the Debian community," so to speak. > If you don't like Debian, you are free to either attempt to > improve it, > or join the ranks of others who use a different system. It's > a personal > choice. Debian is different for a reason. I have just said several times that it's my favorite Linux distribution, possibly not in so many words. What I don't like are politics. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] > I came home one day to "I tried deleting this file 'cause I > didn't think I > need it, and it won't let me." IIRC, it was the /lib directory... Well, in fairness to her, it's possible that she didn't need one of the files in the /lib directory ;) Especially Linux distributions are bad about just installing garbage that you don't need and will never use. > ObClassicCmp: Anyone ever get OS-9/68K running on a Palm yet??? :-) Wow, I was just thinking that I might be able to get Mach3 for MIPS running on my palmtop... ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

1
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Let's make a deal -- attn Richard Erlacher

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

Hey Richard, since you are able to get such great bargains, let's hook up and both make some Big Bucks: > From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> > Of course, I do buy it whenever I see the CD's at the thrift store. Windows > typically costs $2 there. I'll take all you can get (Win 95 and higher) for $10 each. > Office 2K cost $5, last time I saw it. I'll give you $15 each for as many as you can send. > Typically, > a nice ~200 MHz Pentium box with a little (32MB) of RAM and <10GB HDD and a > small (15") monitor, plus the usual keyboard and mouse, costs around $75. $125 plus freight. I could use a couple of dozen of them. Whaddya say? Let's cash in! Glen 0/0

24 years, 4 months

2
1
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Cheap tools (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwightk.elvey@amd.com] > $250.00 set from a good source. The sockets split open, > the Philips screwdriver points rounded and damaged the screws > and the ratchet busted without even using a cheater. > It had a life time guarantee. I found the replacements just > as useless. Worse still, the plating from one of the replacement > sockets peeled up and slashed my hand. Hans is right, windows is just like that. :) > It is better to have tools that don't break or damage > your hardware than to have guaranteed junk. Yep, not to mention that I prefer to deal with more reputable organizations, like the IRS, or the DMV, or the mafia. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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Linux handheld

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

REVIEW: ZAURUS HANDHELD DOES MORE THAN LOOK SHARP Sharp Electronics Corp.'s Zaurus SL-5500 marries a flexible, Linux-based operating system with a slick, ingenious hardware design to provide a compelling alternative to Microsoft Corp.'s Pocket PC-based handheld devices. To read the eWEEK Labs review, click here: <http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePhW0BzN6x0DUm0mWn0Ak>

24 years, 4 months

1
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> > > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > > > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > > > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > > > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > > > PC's of the same time period. > > > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > > > > The Amiga was doing "desktop publishing" *before* the term > was coined! In what year do you place this revisionist history? People were casually using the term "Desktop Publishing" in 1985, the year the Commodore Amiga A1000 was launched... Regards, -dq

24 years, 4 months

2
1
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Calculating VUP values

by Huw.Davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au

At 07:29 AM 23/04/2002 -0700, Carlini, Antonio wrote: >It's amazing DEC went to such >bother calculating VUPs by running >a set of real benchmarks on a finely >tuned system and then reporting a >measure based on some weighted >sum when this procedure would have saved >**sooo** much effort: I didn't expect the command procedure to be as good as the real benchmarks but given that the benchmarks are hardly likely to be available for end users I was just interested to see if this command procedure was of any use. At least you can run it on any VMS box. >According to this proc, the machines >I can reach right now report: > >VAXstation 4000-90A: 26.0 bogoVUPs (should be 32+ VUPs) >VAX 4000-700A: 30.8 bogoVUPs (should be ~40 VUPs) >VAX 4000-705A: 34.4 bogoVUPs (should be ~45 VUPs) >Alpha 2100 4/200: 35.2 bogoVUPs >Takara (EV56@500MHz): 87.2 bogoVUPs Well it's in the ball park, though it looks like it's giving only about 75% of the accepted VUP rating. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green"

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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Windows V1.0

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> > I don't recall any "Windows 2.0", but rather Windows 286 and Windows > 386. The floppies said Windows 286, but the box said Windows 2.0... -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits

24 years, 4 months

1
0
0 0

Emulex UC04 SCSI controller for MicroVAX

by flori_m＠gmx.net

Hi folks, I've got an Emulex UC04 and would like to use it in my MicroVAX II. Where can I find documentation for it? Greetings from Germany, Flori

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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Futuredata System

by flori_m＠gmx.net

Hi, I've got an old FutureData 2300 System. It has an 8085 CPU and two 8 Inch floppy drives. What is it? What is it good for? What operating systems run on it? Where can I find Software/Manuals/... Would also trade it with an SMD Controller for my MicroVAX II Greetings from Germany, Flori

24 years, 4 months

1
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by blacklord＠telstra.com

Hi Dick, > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > > > > Chris > > > Survive ... that's something it didn't do better. > Still alive, kickin' & new machines are about to be released :-) cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com

24 years, 4 months

3
2
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Apple //e card

by pat＠cart-server.purdueriots.com

I've got an ALS Z-Card for my Apple //e, and was wondering if anyone had CP/M or MP/M for it. Any info on it would be greatly appreciated. I've tried using google, but haven't really found anything of much use. Also, has anyone tried making a 'soft disk' using SRAMs or an EPROM? I've now got a bunch of EPROMs that would be nice to be able to dump a 'disk image' that I could perhaps boot off of onto them. Any ideas from anyone on this? OR... perhaps something I could use a PC to emulate the disk... just throwing some ideas out there. It'd be nice if it emulated the Disk ][ card so that I could use it as a drop in replacement - is there any easily accessible docs for that? -- Pat

24 years, 4 months

2
1
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New Museum Finds for the Week

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

> 1. Tandy Portable wordprocessor WP-2 with the manual. I bought one of these New on closeout, boy what a waste of money since I've never really used it. I've even got the cassette recorder and cable to hook it up. > 2. A AlphaSmart Pro wordprocessor like the WP-2 except it links up to > PC's, Mac's and IIGS's using cables. Actually the WP-2 should link up with anything with a serial port, if it's got a comm program with the right protocol. I did this once, it was a royal pain as I recall. Zane

24 years, 4 months

1
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by blacklord＠telstra.com

Hi Chris, > The VAX. :) (You did say all machines) Unfair! Not the same class! > > Minis excluded, I guess the TRS-80 ;) Err, graphical web browser ? (Wave on the Cpmmies). cheers. Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com

24 years, 4 months

1
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New Museum Finds for the Week

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

1. Tandy Portable wordprocessor WP-2 with the manual. 2. A AlphaSmart Pro wordprocessor like the WP-2 except it links up to PC's, Mac's and IIGS's using cables. 3. Panasonic/REAL game console with about 8 or 9 games for it at $1.99 per game. Works great. 4. Sun type 4 and 5 keyboards (1 each) with mice. 5. always technology AL-1000 high performance parallel port SCSI adapter. 6. One of those tan Apple carryon bags for the early all-in-one Mac's for $2.99. (They go for $30 to $60 on eBay) 7. Lots of other items that are too new to put out on here yet.

24 years, 4 months

1
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > You may be onto something, but the use of bombastic > descriptors such as > "brain-damaged" suggest you really don't know what goes on in > big companies, Actually, I would argue that the term "brain-damaged" describes more than adequately what goes on in large companies, and most small ones. I would argue that, but I'm tired of arguing... > and have lost sight of the fact that not all people are the > brightest bulbs It's a hard fact to miss. > ... just look at our Chief Executive ... even his Papa, who > was considerably > more articluate than he is, though not a dimwit, was not > terribly clever. If you're talking about the US's president, I'm not sure I can agree with your classification of "not a dimwit" for him -- or his father, or any other politician I can think of... I'm sure there are one or two who aren't idiots; I just can't think of any. > more below ... Indeed... > > average person can watch them and make use of their vocaublary by > > utter such wise words as "duh, footbawl!" > Keep in mind that they're the majority of the user base. Again, that's difficult to miss. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

3
3
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Altos 580 and CP/M-MP/M Again.

by doc＠mdrconsult.com

After a long DEC-inflicted delay, I finally found time to replace the Altos' CMI doorstop with a 20MB Seagate ST225. The ST225 formats fine in the Diags and passes all read/write/seek tests, but neither CP/M nor MP/M, booting from floppy, are able to access the drive. I'm fairly sure I'm missing a critical step, like partitioning and making a filesystem, but there's a double hitch. I know nothing about CP/M _and_ nothing about the Altos. Online info is non-existent for the 580 and bewilderingly abundant for CP/M. I'm soliciting "favorite CP/M tutorial" recommendations, as well as a Cx4 for reading the HDD from the OS. Doc

24 years, 4 months

2
3
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Shiva Fastpath files and documentation

by nemesis-lists＠icequake.net

Hi, I've posted an archive of files and documentation for the Shiva Fastpath series of Localtalk to Ethernet routers here: http://dbz.icequake.net/oldskool/fastpath/ Hope it helps someone. I remember corresponding with Ethan about this quite a while back; don't remember if you found this stuff yet. In any case, here it is! -- Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253

24 years, 4 months

2
1
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > PC's of the same time period. Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

6
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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > > > But, Weren't you impressed with his use of the word 'moonified'? It's like > > he wrote the nonsensical rant with a thesaraus to sound smart. > > > > Yes. moonified threw me for awhile... > > kinda reminds me of some spell checker that we once > used that suggested broccoli as a replacement for Berkeley... Can you say "obg"? Either Enlzbaq is a ebobg, or he has a obg working for him... -dq

24 years, 4 months

1
0
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3.5" floppy drive specs?

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

Does anyone have a handy list of drive specs for the various 3.5" floppy drives that they can post? I need to find a couple of old 720k drives but I don't know what part numbers to look for. Joe

24 years, 4 months

4
4
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TFE - C64 Ethernet Cartridge (fwd)

by bpope＠wordstock.com

> > We are proud to announce that we have designed and implemented a fully > working Ethernet adapter for the Commodore 64. We call our design TFE > - The Final Ethernet (a pun on the name of the TFC :-). It consists of the > Embedded Ethernet board from Systor Vest AS > (http://www.embeddedethernet.com/) and a single 74LS139 decoder chip > mounted on a custom made printed circuit board. > > To show off our card, we have connected a TFE-equipped C64 to the > Internet. It is running the uIP TCP/IP stack > (http://dunkels.com/adam/uip/) including the web server as well as a > real-time streaming audio server that streams audio sampled from the > Datasette player. It can be reached at http://tfe.c64.org/. > > More information, including pictures of the cartridge, PCB layouts, > and source code can be found at http://dunkels.com/adam/tfe/. > > Note that this is not the same Ethernet adapter that Bo Zimmerman > talked about a few weeks ago. > > Adam Dunkels and Peter Eliasson > April 12, 2002 > > -- > Adam Dunkels <adam(a)sics.se> > http://www.sics.se/~adam > > Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list > Like, this is too COOL!!!!!! Bryan

24 years, 4 months

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suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)?

by nemesis-lists＠icequake.net

Tony Duell wrote: > At last a message that's not part of a flamewar involving Richard > Erlacher.... Maybe we should create a separate list for flamewars. You've got to admit, the OT traffic is interesting at times. -- Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253

24 years, 4 months

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AS/400s in the Champaign area

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Russ Blakeman [mailto:rhb57@vol.com] > Remote dial-in access via an external modem should also be > available besides > terminals (twinax and 5250 emulators) as well as ethernet, > TR, etc - all in > the adapters added to it. You're right. It even came with the 2400bps modem ;) -- and at least one twinax block. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: blacklord [mailto:blacklord@telstra.com] > Indeed, out of all the machines then in production, which one > still in > use now is still capable of (more or less) doing what modern machines > can ? The VAX. :) (You did say all machines) Minis excluded, I guess the TRS-80 ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Open source -- non computer topics

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > And they all look like 95 to me. I use debian linux ... Red hat has They do, don't they? Well, default configured Enlightenment/Gnome and KDE anyway. That's creativity for you ;) Debian's nice, but it has its share of "political" garbage too, like the "GNU/Linux" plastered all over the place, or the fact that they insist on keeping "non-free" software separate. NetBSD is kind of nice (not spotless), as far as politics go. > too much political -- me is right and I am the only way -- > Also debian is the only version you can upgrade with a modem. Well, strictly speaking, depending on the amount of work you'd like to put into it, you can upgrade anything with a modem. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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FA: Interesting AIM-65

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

See <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2018077250> Joe

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] > >Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > Keep software and hardware developers alive and in business? Ok, so you have a point there. I was thinking in terms of actual computing work. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 02:08 PM 4/23/2002 -0500, Christopher Smith wrote: >I've always thought it was stigma that was >> unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the >> PC's of the same time period. > >Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... Keep software and hardware developers alive and in business? Whoops, sorry, just a little ex-Amiga developer humor there. - John

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by Robert_Feldman＠jdedwards.com

For some time now, the gaming console market has been where the real technological advances in consumer/PC computers have been made. Most PC users in the business world could get along just fine with a '386 if the OS and software weren't so bloated now. Bob (who is still trying in vain to get MS WinWord to behave and who uses a WordStar clone on the HP palmtop he carries) -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:44 PM To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) <snip> I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the PC's of the same time period. Jeff

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mythtech＠mac.com

>Bring on the kiddie porn! Is that $15k offer for nude pics still open? Oh, wait, you said Kiddie, I thought you said Kitty... figured I could shave my wife's cat for you (man... THAT is wide open!) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 4 months

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suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)?

by Antonio.Carlini＠riverstonenet.com

>You could buy a 110-220 step-up transformer, and that usually has the >european two prong plug built in. I myself would see if the power >supply has a split primary for the mains power; then rewire/flip the >switch for 110 operation and just use a US style power cord. No doubt you can get a suitable two-prong plug with an IEC on the other end of the lead, but in the UK (and the beeb is, after all, a UK box) the standard plugs are three-pin. >Monitor: If it is an RGB with seperate outputs, the NTSC/PAL question >is moot. I know that US RGB monitors for the Amiga will sync to PAL >rates (625 lines, 50Hz) with no problems. The conflict arises only when >the video is composite, as the color information is encoded >differently. I have seen small converters for sale, that change PAL >video to NTSC and vice versa. I've never seen how good/bad they work, >but that is a viable alternative, if your only output is composite >video. A small cub monitor cannot be much harder to ship than a beeb can it? The real problem is possibly going to be the 50Hz/60Hz issue. I know that in the lab (in the UK) we used to have a 110/120V 60Hz supply specifically for the oddball US kit we used to end up with, but that was (IIRC) done with something a little beefier than a stepup transformer. The small (but very, very) heavy step down transformer we also had, did nothing to convert the frequency (not a problem if all you want is juice, but if anything is trying to generate an approximate clock from the line frequencey ....) Antonio

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by DAW＠yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu

> From: Chris > > >Bring on the kiddie porn! > > Is that $15k offer for nude pics still open? > > Oh, wait, you said Kiddie, I thought you said Kitty... figured I could > shave my wife's cat for you (man... THAT is wide open!) > > -chris > Ah, uh, err... Damnit! You know, I had a nifty comment, but I forgot it... I must say though, it would be interesting to see your wife's shaved pussy...cat. Sorry, couldn't resist that one... ;) -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > > and I'm really trying to play by their rules. They have no > Why play by their rules? The more who do, the worse the problem will > become for all of us. Let the biz'droid lusers know that their > software is broken and that they need to pay an appropriate > professional to fix their minds as well. Indeed I would tell them if they would listen to me. As it is, I have agreed to follow their rules, and will have to do that until they make more sane rules. In other words, when I took their job, I gave them my word. I don't believe I can count on them to fix these problems on my account. After all, they don't impair my work -- all of our clients use this junk too. (Sad, but what can you do about it?) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Friendlier OS' (e.g. Windows) have equivalent tools that are less onerous in > the demands they place on the user. Just ask the typical programmer what a > "regular expression" is. Better yet, give him a task requiring the use of Umm, a programmer that doesn't know what a regular expression is, is no programmer at all. Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical computer programmers? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mythtech＠mac.com

>That's what normally >happens to MAC's. It's not unusual to see several MAC's in the dumpster. They throw out network card addresses? But then how does the cable company ID their modem users? -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 4 months

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Maybe OT, but quite funny

by DAW＠yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu

> From: Hans Franke > > Pleas check the following site: > http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html > it is a incredible slow server. It_looks_ like some > fundamental christian group, but what is presented as > truth about Apple OSx, is so far reaching, that it could > be also a parody of christian hate mongers. > > Hard to describe, but they draw a line from the fact that > the development name for the OS X Kernel is Darwin over the > usage of Daemons and the BSD icon to conclude that Apple > is a satanistic and pagan company ... or something like > that. So overdone that's realy funny again. > > chmod 666 the ultimat signe of satanic influence. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Nah, I think this guy really is a genuine dumbass! Wait! I must be satan-spawn! I use OS X, and I like it! -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash

24 years, 4 months

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3.5" floppy drive specs?

by Innfogra＠aol.com

>From my CSC Hard Drive Bible 7 look for Fujitsu 2532 Toshiba FD4603 YE Data 646 Paxton Astoria, OR

24 years, 4 months

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Apple-1 Auction conclusion

by mythtech＠mac.com

>> Not exactly, but if you send me $15K, I'll send it to you. > >$15K for a picture? Will it include nude girls in the background? For $15k, I'll send you a pic of nude anything you want -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > I like to see images while surfing and play multi-media stuff now and > then, > and play with a cad program or two. For command line stuff I like the > old > text screen. In that case, it sounds like what you really want are graphical full-screen applications, possibly with multitasking. In this case, the window decorations would just take up screen-space, and the windowing system would just take up memory, while not doing you too much good anyway. Not something that's been done yet, but it would be interesting, and it certainly wouldn't be too difficult. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Maybe OT, but quite funny

by Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de

Pleas check the following site: http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html it is a incredible slow server. It_looks_ like some fundamental christian group, but what is presented as truth about Apple OSx, is so far reaching, that it could be also a parody of christian hate mongers. Hard to describe, but they draw a line from the fact that the development name for the OS X Kernel is Darwin over the usage of Daemons and the BSD icon to conclude that Apple is a satanistic and pagan company ... or something like that. So overdone that's realy funny again. chmod 666 the ultimat signe of satanic influence. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > BUT I MAY NOT WANT a bit map when running under XWINDOWS! Then why use a windowing system at all? > I want a 80x25 screen (640x480) because I can read the screen for > text-editing! Ok, but why would you use a windowing system? > No font's under X-windows (linux) would give me that! You could make one. I would, but I think you'll find that there are, indeed, fonts which will do this. > It is not the plumbing -- it is what goes down the pipe > that needs to > be standarded! That's certainly a Unix weak spot. > 1) Not everybody has the same standard fonts! Actually, any X11 setup should have the standard Adobe type-1 set. > 2) I like 1 screen 1 program and screen flipping. Ok, why would you use a windowing system? (Please note that I don't mean any disrespect by repeating this question so much...) > But the 3 button mouse is hard to find! Really? They are -- to steal a phrase -- common as dirt, as far as I know. You do know that the common annoying "wheel" mice are either three button, or five, depending on the software ;) > > You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. > After 40 years waiting for public space travel, my faith in NASA > is wearing thin. Of course, it would happen in Europe first... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Apple-1 Auction conclusion

by mythtech＠mac.com

>So you're saying you've got an Apple-1 that you're secretly hoarding >because you love it and wouldn't give it up for anything in the world and >don't want anyone to know about it because you're afraid someone will >break into your house one dark night and steal away with it? That sounds about right. After all, isn't Richard the one that buy's Apple 2's for their "power supply". I think he is secretly afraid to admit he loves the Apple, so he just *says* he gets them for the power supply. I bet he has a collection to put the rest of us Apple lovers to shame. ;-) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 4 months

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NEC Risc Server (2100?)

by doc＠mdrconsult.com

Yes, Glen, I know already. No offense, but I'm looking for information, rather than opinion. I'm looking for info on an RT-4620-27A5S dual-CPU tower. It appears to be an EISA? RAID-equipped server. All I can find is some references on the NetBSD list, with no details as to the hardware. Is it really, finally, truly the mythical NT-only computer? Doc

24 years, 4 months

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Anyone Care About RT-11

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

Jerome Fine said: > By the way, for myself, I would VERY much appreciate > being in touch with all individuals who have a copy of the > RT-11 Freeware CD V2.0 so that we might exchange > information about RT-11. I have a copy. Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:28 PM The whole mid 80s thing with workstations was a disaster in many respects as everyone was trying to put more processor in a box and unix was the OS of choice as it was easily ported and offered most of the higher level OS functions that stuff like DOS was clueless about. The problem was unix was easily ported though it didn't make for portable apps, usually due to underlying hardware or even the basic processor. In that respect CP/M and DOS made it easier as at least if it was CP/M-80 you knew your base cpu was 8080/z80 and if it was DOS you could bet on 808x. Unix back then meant MIPS, VAX, PDP-11, SUN/sparc, 68000, Z8000, and a few dozen I likely missed. >I've got about half-a-dozen of the free assembler/simulator/debugger packages >for Windows some of which come along with compilers for PL/M, Pascal, and 'C.' >I'm certainly not surprised that there are UNIX tools of that sort around, >since the 805x core has been around since '84 or so, when I started with it. >Back then, BTW, there was no Windows, nor was there much freeware. I used >UNIX on SUN hardware back then and it cost $100K a year for the personnel >needed to keep the rather small SUN system running. The typical EDA software >package cost over $200K and was patched about once a month, resulting in about >ten days' downtime per patch. Note the 8051 is 1981. I started with that chip using freeware under CP/M-80 and still use most of those tools. When there was a requirement I'd use a commercial compiler from Avocet systems a relatively inexpesive package back then. The idea that PCs were a unversal platform and was foreign to me until the vary late 80s ('89!). Even then DOS was the default not winders, assuming it wasn't SCO unix or the like. In the end a lot has been forgotten about the timeframe from 82 to about 88 where there was not just a little flux in the market and the PC was only one player. >happily went back to CP/M, which served much better, in my view. >Unfortunately, there was little freeware of any use for CP/M just as there is >for Windows. The OS was not available in source form, nor was it likely you'd Actually there was but the problem of incompatable media was crippling unless you had the majik 8"sssd box. The realy 80s was an explosive time for CP/M-80 software if you could get it in a form you could use. There was a large amount stuff published, but typing in 8-10 pages of listing was often a good reason not to persue it. What was also a bonus was the amount of cheapware (low cost), stuff that was good but, cheap to buy. >find source code for any application that was of any use. Back then, if you >wanted development software tools that worked pretty well, you bought >Microsoft compilers, assemblers, linkers, etc. Their stuff worked, was >adequately documented, etc. Actually back (pre 83ish) then MS was a language and development tool house and I'd say a fairly decent one at the time. >Nothing lasts forever, though. Roger that! Allison

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > Your a Holocaust denier ? Ok, I was wondering when somebody was going to mention Hitler. Thread closed -- we can all go home now. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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wang 2200 MVP & more looking for home (fast!)

by frustum＠pacbell.net

Last night I was contacted by Joe Kultgen about a wang 2200 MVP he needs to get rid of by the end of the month. Although I'm into the 2200, I'm interested in just a few early models. Please contact Joe directly at rtfm AT tds DOT net >Hi, > > Are you still looking for some vintage Wang 2200 hardware? > > About six years ago I pulled one out of service at a brokerage I >support. I have the following; > >3 2200 MVP Processors >1 2200 MVPC Processor >1 Magna removable hard disk + a half dozen disks. (Uses a removable hard >disk platter in plastic cartridge, 10MB) >2 twin bay extrernal hard drives (One has 2 MFM drives, other has 1 MFM and >one 5 1/4 floppy) >2 drive towers (6 bay?) that include 5 1/4 floppy and DAT tape drives. >1 large box of drive controlers, I/O, and memory cards. >1 Dumb terminal & keyboard >25 lbs. of assorted Wang docs and manuals > >Interested? >Joe Kultgen >RTFM Technical Services and in a subsequent email: > The reason I'm dumping the stuff is that I'm relocating my shop. I have >to be out by the end of the month. If you'd like to circulate the list, >please feel free. If somebody expresses an interest in paying the shipping, >they can have their pick of the pile, first come first served. I'll hold >stuff that anyone wants past the 30th, everything else hits the dumpster. ----- Jim Battle == frustum(a)pacbell.net

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > And today you have enough hardware in a PC box to support > 5,000 people doing the same thing, not that your lust for faster > hardware is over, because unix is doing things that Ken and Dennis > never envisioned. It's a shame that it has so much power, and yet is so poorly engineered, but I don't' suppose that's the point here. > ""If we prevent them from doing stupid things, we also prevent > them from doing creative things"" - Cant Remember Who But abstaining from stupid things is not the same as preventing others >from doing them. In other words, it can't hurt to be careful what you do, yourself, and to make the judgment whether this thing which you're about to do is actually worth, for instance, a sacrifice of consistency. > And these new things are seem seemless because the system > concepts are extensable with flexability in depth Seamless is a very relative term, but ok, I'll go with that. > Winblows by contrast has the depth of leftist reason and > the flexability of a socialist utopian machine gunner setting up > 40 paces from a fresh dug mass grave ditch. > and like winblows, equal use and benifit to you if your aim > and desire > dont fit with theirs. Wow, you're really down on these "leftists," aren't you. I'm certainly glad I've never met one ;) They sound scary, especially if they're that much like windows. > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. ...which leads to new ideas, which lead, of course, to cheese. In other words, you may want to be more clear about your logic here. Even though I agree in principle with the above, it's very sensational, and there's nothing to support it. > True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist > ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a > leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are > not liberals > they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) I really hope you're not trying to make this into a more political discussion than it is now. > > It is not the plumbing -- it is what goes down the pipe > that needs to > > be standarded! > This is wrong, to do so would eliminate creativity. I don't think so. The fact that the standard exists, and is generally followed, doesn't prevent somebody from making a new standard or an extension to the old one where necessary. > New protocols are invented every day, the usefull ones end up > being adopted and the bad ones on the ashheap. It would be great if it did work that way -- now who's being utopian? ;) > On a 2 button mouse, you press both buttons to simulate > button 3, it works smoothly and perfectly well. You _can_ with XFree86, and friends. I certainly hope you don't think that those are the only X servers available. Some servers (while being very nice programs) don't have this feature. For the sake of argument I'll assume that you know all of this already, and point out that you could also use keys on the keyboard, if you so desire. I have done it before while using a Macintosh one-button mouse. > still suffreing the leftist egalitarian poison that has > raped the planet > of man potential. ( and left 200 million of its citizens in > mass graves ) Ack -- not the leftists again! > we can get along back to the accent of man. What kind of accent does man have? I hope it's not southern. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Calculating VUP values

by Antonio.Carlini＠riverstonenet.com

It's amazing DEC went to such bother calculating VUPs by running a set of real benchmarks on a finely tuned system and then reporting a measure based on some weighted sum when this procedure would have saved **sooo** much effort: According to this proc, the machines I can reach right now report: VAXstation 4000-90A: 26.0 bogoVUPs (should be 32+ VUPs) VAX 4000-700A: 30.8 bogoVUPs (should be ~40 VUPs) VAX 4000-705A: 34.4 bogoVUPs (should be ~45 VUPs) Alpha 2100 4/200: 35.2 bogoVUPs Takara (EV56@500MHz): 87.2 bogoVUPs Antonio -----Original Message----- From: Brian Wheeler [mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu] Sent: 23 April 2002 14:37 To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Calculating VUP values On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 03:21, Huw Davies wrote: > I'm sure a few days ago I saw a piece of DCL fly by in a classiccmp mail > message that was supposed to calculate the VUP rating of a VMS system. > > At the time I didn't think I'd need it so didn't archive it, of course, now > I WANT it! Basically I'd like to get the VUP rating for my simulated > VAXserver 3900 thanks to simh (http://simh.trailing-edge.com). > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au > | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > | air, the sky would be painted green" I might have been the one that posted it. I snagged it from google, so I don't know how accurate it is. On my pentium 3/1.7GHz I get 4.0 vups under simh. $! CALCULATE_VUPS: $! $ set noon $ orig_privs = f$setprv("ALTPRI") $ process_priority = f$getjpi(0,"PRIB") $ cpu_multiplier = 10 ! VAX = 10 - Alpha/AXP = 40 $ cpu_round_add = 1 ! VAX = 1 - Alpha/AXP = 9 $ cpu_round_divide = cpu_round_add + 1 $ init_counter = cpu_multiplier * 525 $ init_loop_maximum = 205 $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 10$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. init_loop_maximum then goto 10$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ init_vups = ((init_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ loop_maximum = (init_vups * init_loop_maximum) / 10 $ base_counter = (init_counter * init_vups) / 10 $ vups = 0 $ times_through_loop = 0 $ 20$: $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 30$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. loop_maximum then goto 30$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ new_vups = ((base_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ if new_vups .eq. vups then goto 40$ $ vups = new_vups $ times_through_loop = times_through_loop + 1 $ if times_through_loop .le. 5 then goto 20$ $ 40$: $ new_privs = f$setprv(orig_privs) $ set message /nofacility/noidentification/noseverity/notext $ ASSIGN/SYSTEM/EXEC 'vups' MACHINE_VUPS_RATING $ set message /facility/identification/severity/text $ write sys$output "Approximate System VUPs Rating : ", - vups / 10,".", vups - ((vups / 10) * 10) $ exit Brian

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mbg＠TheWorld.com

> The only operating systems that I'm aware of that were made for the DEC >Alpha were VMS (or is that OpenVMS), ULTRIX, Linux and maybe a certain >version of Windows NT. There might have been another UNIX variant made >for the DEC Alpha but I'm not aware of what it could be. There was a version of DEC OSF/1 which early on ran on some of the DEC MIPS boxes, but Ultrix has only ever run on the Vax and MIPS, not Alpha. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

24 years, 4 months

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suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)?

by dpeschel＠eskimo.com

It has been my mission for some time to bring a BBC Micro back from England. I would need some way to adapt British plugs to US sockets and convert the voltage, and I would also need a PAL monitor. (No, I don't want black-and-white NTSC. Yes, I could bring a montior back from England along with the computer. I'm not sure if I want to do that.) Does anyone have experience with these things? I am hoping to save money ($500 would be above the top of my price range) but I don't want to fry anything either. Oh yes, and if anyone has an extra Beeb hanging around that would be nice too. -- Derek

24 years, 4 months

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suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 22, 12:09, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > >If the power supply is switching, they ususally rectify the line > votage > >and go from there. In which case the frequency has no bearing.. > > Never having had either a broken beeb or a broken cub > monitor, I have no idea whether they care > about the frequency or not. They don't. The frequency won't matter, only having "about" the right voltage. Actually, I once (when I worked for an Acorn distributor) came across a guy working abroad who had inadvertantly used his unmodified Beeb on a 120V supply and never noticed until he bought a monitor -- which refused to work at such a low voltage. I wouldn't suggest you try it, though; it should be easy to change the PSU setting. Many monitors may not care too much about the frequency either, but it's probably easier to get one that can be set to 110V; a CGA or Amiga monitor should work. I'd strongly suggest an RGB (TTL level) monitor rather than a PAL or other composite colour monitor, as the higher-res screen modes aren't too sharp when the colour signal is added to a composite signal. > There are (cheap) travel adapters that allow you > to plug UK appliances into various > worldwide connectors. I don't have one to > hand to check, but I do know some of them > can cope with a hairdryer - whether that's > enough to not catch light when trying > to feed an early beeb with the > varnish-stripping PSU is not > clear to me :-) Don't try it. Neither the adapter nor the Beeb's switch-mode PSU will like it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by nemesis-lists＠icequake.net

Dick, > I wouldn't either. I'm not sure that you can go and get an education anymore. > ... > Back when I was in high school, a score of 800 on one or the other of the > SAT's was a rare event that didn't occur every year in a school system in a > city of half-a-million or so. Nowadays, with the obviously much-lowered > standards, it happens all the time. I really don't see how this follows. Students are scoring higher on standardized exams, thus the standards must "obviously" be much-lowered. Without having proof to the contrary, Occam's Razor would suggest that the explanation to higher overall scores on standardized tests would simply be "a better overall quality of education today". After all, if students are learning more and thus scoring higher on standardized tests, well, what more does that mean than that the standardized tests are doing what they are designed for (as demographic tools) and are representative of the increase in students' learning? Without proof, we cannot assume either way. So if you would like to make an argument about education quality in the US today, back it up with facts, otherwise it just sounds like "In my day" geezer-ranting. -- Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mythtech＠mac.com

>Without proof, we cannot assume either way. So if you would like to >make an argument about education quality in the US today, back it up with >facts, >otherwise it just sounds like "In my day" geezer-ranting. I can tell you the school system I went thru has significantly lowered it standards for grades, while at the same time INCREASING their requirments of what you are taught. I have a nephew going thru the same schools I attended (even has many of the same teachers), and I see what he is learning, and how it reflects to his grades. He is taught more than I was at his level... BUT, failure to know the stuff doesn't result in matching low grades. At least in this school system, it looks like they just won't give a kid lower than a C... no matter what. But they are definitly teaching more than they were when I attended... so things like standardized tests may result in higher average scores, since some of that higher learning probably sinks in to a good percentage of the kids. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 4 months

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Apple-1 Auction conclusion

by mythtech＠mac.com

>Prob'ly not, since he presumably only runs Unix. Wait... isn't Richard also the guy that said he has no need for any Unix machine? And that Unix isn't good for anything except $250k programs? Or am I mixing up thread posts? -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

24 years, 4 months

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suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)?

by cdl＠proxima.ucsd.edu

> From: "Carlini, Antonio" <Antonio.Carlini(a)riverstonenet.com> > To: "'classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org'" <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in > US)? > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:09:05 -0700 > > >Can you get UK to Euro AC adapters there? I've only seen the round > >plugs with two pins, and the sorta ground lug. > > There are (cheap) travel adapters that allow you > to plug UK appliances into various > worldwide connectors. I don't have one to > hand to check, but I do know some of them > can cope with a hairdryer - whether that's > enough to not catch light when trying > to feed an early beeb with the > varnish-stripping PSU is not > clear to me :-) There are two kinds of travel adapters. The ones for low-power gadgets less than 50 watts, which use a transformer. The ones for high-power gadgets like hair dryers or clothes irons, which just use a half-wave diode rectifier, and figure that they are letting only half the power through. The second kind is not recommended for anything electronic. :-) It even says so on the package. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu

24 years, 4 months

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OT (way OT) SAT: (was Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format))

by PasserM＠umkc.edu

The SAT, at least, has been rescaled, resulting in older scores being equivalent to newer scores about 100 points greater. Even without an explicit rescaling, standards could have been lowered by virtue of the questions themselves having become less challenging. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Underwood [mailto:nemesis-lists@icequake.net] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 5:06 PM To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Dick, > I wouldn't either. I'm not sure that you can go and get an education > anymore. ... Back when I was in high school, a score of 800 on one or > the other of the SAT's was a rare event that didn't occur every year > in a school system in a city of half-a-million or so. Nowadays, with > the obviously much-lowered standards, it happens all the time. I really don't see how this follows. Students are scoring higher on standardized exams, thus the standards must "obviously" be much-lowered. Without having proof to the contrary, Occam's Razor would suggest that the explanation to higher overall scores on standardized tests would simply be "a better overall quality of education today". After all, if students are learning more and thus scoring higher on standardized tests, well, what more does that mean than that the standardized tests are doing what they are designed for (as demographic tools) and are representative of the increase in students' learning? Without proof, we cannot assume either way. So if you would like to make an argument about education quality in the US today, back it up with facts, otherwise it just sounds like "In my day" geezer-ranting. -- Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > you mean those systems that eschew the command line by > makeing the function it provided impossible ? Touche' > Unix is superior *because* it retained the command line. > the Unix GUI is also superior, because it is network transparent. Ok, well, I would argue that Unix is superior to windows because what architecture Unix has is much more well implemented that the windows architecture. Having a command-line is, of course, very helpful in trying to do real work with a computer, but I don't' know whether I'd give it as a point of superiority. > > Allmost 99% of unix is based on the main frame model of computing > > where you have 50 people all say text editing with the same editor > > and 3 people running a program in the background. > Ok so you dont know anything about unix, thats what you are > saying here. Not exactly, I think he's saying that Unix acts like a multi-user system. ;) Of course, I could be way off, but I wouldn't argue if that's the case. > > The windows model is based on personal computers with > crappy hardware > > that you have 100% of the system to yourself. > How does that differ from my unix boxes ? i certainly have them all > to myself. If your unix boxes are based on crappy hardware, I feel sorry for you. Honestly, the real difference is that on a Unix system, in order to make the system treat you as if you're the only user in the world, you've got to make some "adjustments." That's as it should be. > > I would like to see a 3rd system, one where the concept of > information > > can be shared and that gives you a standard toolkit for > both character > > and bitmaped displays > That is an oxymoron, even tho what unix has now makes this look > like what is happening. This is hard to interpret. The runes tell me that this might either mean that he'd like a standard set of APIs for controlling both textual and graphical windows. That's kind of an interesting idea, and if that's the case, take a look at Oberon (the programming environment). They also mention that he could be speaking of separate standard APIs, a standard for each type of screen. If that's the case, I'd say NeXT had this for a while. :) X11 is interesting, but the NeXT GUI is much more efficient and coherent than most X11 systems, AFAICT. The major exception in X11 being SGI's IndigoMagic environment, which is wonderful. > Gimp dont translate to a tty very well, but an xterm is certainly the > bitmapped representation of the tty. True, but it's certainly possible to make a graphical terminal, and a standard set of escape sequences. This has been done a few times, with acceptable results. > and the bitmapped display is network transparent, making it superior > to everything else, 2 CPUs or a farm of 4000 boxes, you I'm still going to mention NeXTSTEP as an exception here. "Superior to everything else" is a dangerous statement. Network transparency is nice, of course, and NeXT has that too. > Unix already has this X11 is a standard you can run your sun apps > your irix apps your freebsd apps all on the GUI of your linux box all > at once. and last time i looked, all the other systems have adopted > our plumbing, not the other way around. Of course, if you have this, why not use the GUI of your SGI ;) > eh ? what would be wrong with a nice large 4096 x 3192 screen > with whatever size fonts you desire ? and the ability to populate > that screen with the workload of a whole stack of boxes. Indeed. I wonder this often, myself. > to the microset winblows can provide. unix has point and > click too, but it isnt implimented stupidly. Well, that depends on your definition of "point and click." I certainly have Unix systems that do it, by any definition, but it's harder to find a Unix machine that does it according to the definition of most end users. It can be done very well, and still not dumb the machine down. It has been done on SGI, NeXT, and AT&T's "UnixPC" to name a few, but I wouldn't consider what most Unix systems come with (CDE -- Yuck, or for linux GNOME "Please wait while we redraw the screen...") worth bothering to use. > So utopian brainwashed fiction writers are now your authority > on such things .. Well, the only thing wrong with a utopia is that it's not possible to sustain for any length of time. In conclusion, I'm all for criticism of windows, but please note that Unix is not perfect either. It's just better ;) There are many things that Unix could learn from other systems. Access controls, privleges, for instance. -- and it could certainly learn what not to do, and how to market itself from any microshaft product. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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AS/400s in the Champaign area

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Thompson [mailto:thompson@mail.athenet.net] > CISC 9404 and 9402's that I have seen typically have crappy 150MB oem > Tandberg QIC tape drives. Supposedly they are very finicky with their > SCSI-I. I never bothered to do much with mine. > The disk drives (if not too small to be useful) can be > reformatted to 512 > byte sectors and used elsewhere. I am using an IBM 0661 now from an > AS/400 in a Netbsd DECstation 5000/260 as a second drive. As I said, this thing has two EMC RAID boxes in it. The drives in there are 80-pin SCA type SCSI disks. It also seems to have a tape library of unknown pedigree. It's also worth mentioning that I talked to a friend who used to work for this company that had the AS/400, and he had this to say: ----- oh, what can I tell you about it? Not much, like I said, i never monkeyed with it. It was a monstrous huge thing, a good 15 years old, I think. There was twinax wire running throughout the building, from when the staff had to access it via dumb terminals. Later they stuck a NIC on it somehow, and got TCP/IP running on it, I think, because the staff had a telnet-like client for hooking up to it. ----- Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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apology

by nemesis-lists＠icequake.net

I just hit a wrong key in my mailer and accidentally cc:d an entire copy of today's digest to the list. :( Sorry! *dodges hate-mail and flames* -- Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Oh Christ. Yes, progress...with Perl...to completely unreadable, > unmaintainable, unbearably slow code. No, thanks. You'll appreciate this message which I sent to a few people on Friday. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' ---------- Well, I had a moment of boredom today, and in the interest of science, I decided to see whether output from the system random number generator might make a valid Perl script. Session follows: webserv:~/sla_html/cgi-bin$ dd if=/dev/random of=./test bs=1024 count=1024 0+1024 records in 0+1024 records out webserv:~/sla_html/cgi-bin$ perl -c test Unrecognized character \271 at test line 1. syntax error at test2 line 1, near "/." Bareword found where operator expected at test2 line 4, near ")c" (Missing operator before c?) In string, @k now must be written as \@k at test2 line 6, near "I p&`}@ \.%+ Kj&D :X" j Bt1@k" Bareword found where operator expected at test2 line 13, near "?xVr" (Might be a runaway multi-line ?? string starting on line 6) (Missing operator before Vr?) Bareword found where operator expected at test2 line 14, near "%^g" (Missing operator before g?) Can't find string terminator "`" anywhere before EOF at test2 line 15. <Looks like I'll have to repair some syntax errors on the part of the random number generator...> <After correcting some "obvious syntax errors"...> webserv:~/sla_html/cgi-bin$ perl -c test2 test2 syntax OK webserv:~/sla_html/cgi-bin$ cat test2 #RW/.Z eF9g #j1G=qj #)c.Q #/c!*B_/; #h^?I p(@&) .%+; Kj; #X" j" Bt(@k); TON; \?xVr?; #E%g; Nb_('P'); ~cgu b^O^ s/$T//; $S3X=vU gx/A/ <Now that's pretty impressive> Chris

24 years, 4 months

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suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)?

by Antonio.Carlini＠riverstonenet.com

>If the power supply is switching, they ususally rectify the line votage >and go from there. In which case the frequency has no bearing.. Never having had either a broken beeb or a broken cub monitor, I have no idea whether they care about the frequency or not. It's unlikely, but you never know ... One or other of the PDPs used to derive some sort of rough clock from the input frequency. You told it whether it was running 50Hz or 60Hz so it could adjust appropriately. >Can you get UK to Euro AC adapters there? I've only seen the round >plugs with two pins, and the sorta ground lug. There are (cheap) travel adapters that allow you to plug UK appliances into various worldwide connectors. I don't have one to hand to check, but I do know some of them can cope with a hairdryer - whether that's enough to not catch light when trying to feed an early beeb with the varnish-stripping PSU is not clear to me :-) Antonio

24 years, 4 months

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zOS, OS/390, Perl, and ancestors

by PasserM＠umkc.edu

A relevant piece of "Real Programmers Don't Use Pascal" comes immediately to mind: "No, your Real Programmer uses OS\370. A good programmer can find and understand the description of the IJK305I error he just got in his JCL manual. A great programmer can write JCL without referring to the manual at all. A truly outstanding programmer can find bugs buried in a 6 megabyte core dump without using a hex calculator. (I have actually seen this done.) OS is a truly remarkable operating system. It's possible to destroy days of work with a single misplaced space, so alertness in the programming staff is encouraged. The best way to approach the system is through a keypunch. Some people claim there is a Time Sharing system that runs on OS\370, but after careful study I have come to the conclusion that they were mistaken." And, anyway, wouldn't MVS, OS/390 or zOS, or whatever IBM marketing is calling it this week run Perl just fine under its POSIX layer (OMVS)? >> On April 22, Raymond Moyers wrote: >> > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes >> >> This frightens me. >> >> -Dave. > > The 60 Billion fold increase in function ? > <snip>

24 years, 4 months

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seek info for Ciprico Rimfire 3200

by aek＠spies.com

> I'm looking for any information I can find on the Ciprico Rimfire 3200 VME > SMD controller, and ideally drivers for it to run under SunOS 4.1 www.spies.com/aek/pdf/ciprico (manuals) www.spies.com/aek/CIPRICO.TAR (drivers)

24 years, 4 months

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A Grand Tour

by dogas＠bellsouth.net

I'm back from my trip to Pittsburgh Pa. While there, I called around but couldn't pick up a good lead on any old computers in the area other than the 1) Goodwill Computer Center in South Side and online at http://www.goodwillpitt.org/ and during 2) an annual Garbage Day. ;) The Goodwill there actually had a cool small historical display along one wall wtih several old computers (and stats) including a Commodore Pet 2001, a TRS-80 Model 1&EI, a Apple 2e, a TI99/4&EI, a IBM PC... These were all out of reach, and not for sale, but at least nicely displayed. There was also some Mac gear and a little Sun equipment though they were a little more pricy. They've got a nice area for selling old software, hardware, and documentation. Buys included: boxed Commodore 64+4, Wolfram's Mathemattica suppliment CD, early Mac, 800k drive, Amiga TeX, and medialess software packages for MS Fortran, Bank Street Writer, and Jet all for something like $15. And on the way back home, I visited Alex Knight in North Carolina, and got to see some incredible calculators from the 60s including his programmable Merchants, and Nixietube/multiuser Wangs. I knew immediately that Alex would provide a good home for my Canon Canola SX-320 programmable... http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Can01.jpg ...which I was able to trade for the blue Intel equipment in the next pic... http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Imds01.jpg ;)! Joe already had dibs on the white Intel 225 (did you notice the harddisk for it?) I was happy to bring Joe's down and land the 210 system to reunite it with the tape reader I already had. http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Imds02.jpg Thanks Alex. The Canola will ship today or tomorrow! ;) - Mike: dogas(a)bellsouth.net

24 years, 4 months

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Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

At the time DF32s were not that small. They were however fast. The usual usage was as main store for the OS and working apps with slower device like DECTAPE or 9track tape for file data or infrequently used items. The other common usage was since it was fast (word parallel due to fixed heads and data break (DMA)) as a swap store while the system used a larger disk for other ops. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, April 22, 2002 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) >What sort of drives were the intended target of this OS? I had a colleague >who had a couple of "DF32" drives for his PDP8E (wirewrapped CPU, BTW) which >he was never able to utilize, and I've always wondered just how those drives, >with their small capacity, fit into the scheme of things. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Loboyko Steve" <sloboyko(a)yahoo.com> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 7:42 AM >Subject: Re: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > >> I've been playing with my clone PDP-8's OS-8 >> installation, and I would say at first glance that you >> might think it was awful, but when you consider that >> it is running in 32K (x 12 bits, but still...) of RAM, >> has highly "regular" commands, has installable device >> drivers, and has a large degree of device independence >> it's really very amazing. I could say the same thing >> about Flex for the 6800 and 09. Considering their >> severely limited resources, pretty darned good. >> >> --- Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> wrote: >> > >> > > Apple's DOS 1 and 2 had no files, or so I hear. >> > >> > AFAIR there was never a Apple DOS 1 - the first was >> > called 2 >> > (like in Apple 2, Disk 2, Dos 2) and was written by >> > the Woz >> > himself. Soon to be replaced by DOS 3 (only the low >> > level and >> > the RWTS functions taken from DOS 2 _ which barely >> > was more >> > than that), which again soon developed into 3.2 (all >> > over a >> > period of less than a half year). 3.2 was more or >> > less the >> > standard DOS for over a year, and the one commonly >> > seen as the >> > first public release. Some time later (1980?) 3.3 >> > came around >> > and the 16 sector format, picking up a development >> > done for the >> > UCSD Pascal System (Well, the P-System required you >> > to change >> > the boot PROMs for 16 sector format, and if you >> > wanted to use >> > DOS and the P-System, you either had to swap PROM >> > all the time, >> > or have at least two controllers, and boot via >> > monitor (or basic) >> > command line). Otherwise 3.3 was more or less >> > unchanged from 3.2. >> > So the main trick was the conversion from 13 sectors >> > and 117 K >> > to 16 sectors and 143 K per disk (side). >> > >> > Well, looking back, your're right - at least Apple >> > DOS 1 never >> > supported files, because it didn't exist :) >> > >> > Gruss >> > H. >> > >> > -- >> > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen >> > http://www.vcfe.org/ >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more >> http://games.yahoo.com/ >> >> >

24 years, 4 months

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Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Luser s)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > of course millions claiming to be system programmers and ...don't get me started on this one.. ;) > promote the interests of the Microsoft-haters, however right > or wrong they may FWIW, I believe they're right. I count myself among the "microsoft haters," and have no (absolutely none...) microsoft products, paid for or otherwise on any computer in my home. The computers at work, however, are not mine to do with as I please, and if they were, we wouldn't be having this conversation. :) > is concerned. Since giving bad advice can make you liable, > while being stupid > enough to follow such advice can not, I'd be really careful > about dispensing > such advice. Don't get me started on that either. ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Of course Emacs isn't good at word processing, because it's a text > editor. It's also not very good at schematic capture, for the same > reason. ;) Really? I thought it was a virtual memory subsystem stress tester. *duck* Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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AS/400s in the Champaign area

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On April 21, William Donzelli wrote: > > Umm, I have to disagree with you there...the machines in question are > > indeed of a mainframe architecture, and some IBMers were calling them > > "servers" many years before the zSeries was even an itch in IBM's > > pants. > > That is exactly what I meant...just marketting... Ahh, ok...I suppose, then, I was vehemently agreeing with you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical > computer programmers? Yes. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, Ok then, how about using the VMS LSE for text editing? I believe TeX is not required for a computer to be "useful," since I don't produce much hardcopy anyway -- same with dvips. Bourne is useful, but so is DCL, TCL, Python, you-name-it, and there's nothing that bourne will do that one of the others won't. > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful ghostview is nice to have, but I've actually used just ghostscript, myself, and I've seen utilities that use straight DPS to accomplish the same kind of thing. Gimp is nice, but there are a few other graphics editors that will do the job -- I'm thinking photoshop or Corel's offerings here. XV is indispensable for me, but I don't think it's a requirement for everyone. PostgreSQL is certainly a fine tool, but again, there are many similar offerings, no less capable. Perl is very useful, but there are other choices. C is arguably a decent an more portable replacement for an assembler in many cases, but Modula-3 is nice. ;) > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > programs that run on UNIX systems. I won't address these things, but it should suffice to say that if any system didn't come with these, and you found them indispensable, you could write them yourself. I find that applications alone are hardly a good argument for the use or non-use of any system, and the much better argument is in the design of the system itself. Applications can be had, one way or another. Of course, this view won't make me very popular :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > I've seen PC/Windows shops with remarkably high uptime-to-downtime > ratios. None of them were running bargain equipment. That's ten minutes up/ten minutes scheduled downtime/15 unscheduled? ;) Ok, ok, it's a joke -- but with a kernel of truth. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out, we had a few of > them sitting around > > for people to look at and play with. I personally was not > impressed. They > > were EXTREMELY low on gigaflops per picobuck and, aside > from the OS, I don't > Compared to what? I can support this particular one of Dick's comments, given that the performance of the M68K-ish chip in the NeXT boxes was generally accepted at the time to be lower than that of, for instance, MIPS, and probably M88K. OTOH, the systems (from my personal experience) were (are!) more than fast enough to be wonderful desktop machines, and I can't relate at all to his comparing the GUI to a Macintosh. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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One-upsmanship

by Lee.Davison＠merlincommunications.com

And talk about power usage: the building has a 2 megawatt line coming into it. We have two 10 MW lines here, does that count? 8^)= Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by Andreas.Freiherr＠Vishay.com

Well, it's been some years ago, and I've only done a pretty small amount of assembly-language programming on the DEC-10 (or PDP-10) besides much more FORTRAN, but the reason for me to learn MACRO-10 was byte handling, so let me tell you... Allison wrote: > > 6bits was the "byte" size for the PDP-8 (swap acc halves). > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > 12 bits was link-8, PDP-8 and PDP-12 (likely others). > 9/18 the pdp7 (first home of unix). One of the more interesting features of PDP-10 architecture was that there is no fixed byte size. The instructions dealing with bytes (e.g., ILDB = Increment and LoaD Byte) address part of a 36-bit word by using a so-called "byte pointer", which is a (36-bit) word that defines the address (18 bits) and size (6 bits, IIRC) of the bytes being handled. This way, the same ILDB instruction can handle 5-bit bytes while reading old paper tapes as conveniently as 8-bit bytes when handling multinational character sets. Common byte sizes were 6 (for the SIXBIT code, a reduced character set for use in the file system and other places to encode identifying names) and 7 (for ASCII, parity not being stored). The 7-bit bytes left you with one bit unused, and 5 (yes, five!) characters could be stored in a word. This confused many FORTRAN-IV programs: they relied on handling strings in INTEGER arrays, and assumed the INTEGER*4 data type to be able to store four characters in 32 bits... A typical example was the FLECS translator: to port this from a 32-bit Siemens system to the 36-bit DEC-10, I had to rewrite the string manipulation routines as well as all the DATA statements that contained strings (regroup from four to five characters per INTEGER word). Later, replacing two FORTRAN routines with MACRO-10 made the translator run at about 2.5 times the original speed. If anybody wants to know more about this machine, let me know: what memory doesn't serve right any more will happily get looked up in "the Gorin", something like the bible for MACRO-10 programmers. I still have it, and you'll not find mine at eBay as long as I can read it myself. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > Which is why I use FreeBSD and Solaris. There also appears to be a > certain Linux versus anything else attitude, including Linux vs. other > UNIX-like, and UNIX flavors. It wasn't too long ago when most people > who wrote free software for *NIX systems made an attempt to make it as > portable as possible, so that it could be compiled on most *NIX-like I'm not sure. I think that -- in my experience -- most people who write, or have written, software for Unix, don't particularly care to test it on multiple platforms. Generally I try at least five or six with my own code, but I don't think that's common. (For the curious: Linux Intel, NetBSD/SPARC, IRIX/MIPS, HP/UX/HPPA, SunOS 4/SPARC, AT&T Unix/MC68k) ... and no, I have not so far actually released anything. Mostly this is just stuff for my own use. > platforms. Many of the Linux hackers, however, it appears, tend to > write their software for Linux, and only Linux, systems, ignoring the Perhaps that's all they've got, and they don't care to install anything else? It's certainly their spare time, to do with as they please. Not that I'm saying it's the correct thing to do, but I won't automatically fault them for it. > fact that they wouldn't have their Linux software to play with if > other *NIX hackers hadn't written portable code. For example, the > Free Software Foundation from which Linux snatched most of it's > utility programs, etc. GNU software is often incredibly portable, but I blame this on the fact that the code is ported by other individuals than those who wrote it. At any rate, this is getting even further off-topic. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Specifications Sought for 7-Track Tape Heads

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> John Foust wrote: > > > Or for that matter, the seven "heads" could be displaced > > along the path of the tape, and the software would handle > > the realignment of the time domain. Or you could read > > less than 7 tracks at a time, and reassemble in software. > > Nope --- I would guess a 7 track head is needed, as you only get one > time to read the tape. Ben- watcha mean? I've shoeshined 9-tracks to death on one drive, then handed them to someone else who read them first pass on a different drive. Maybe 7-track tapes from 1961, but so far I've got nothing older than about 1972... -dq

24 years, 4 months

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Network Finds

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

I hope to start hooking up a mix of hardware very soon and have over the last week picked up a Linksys Fast Ethernet 5-Port Workgroup Hub model FEHUB05W ($2.92), a Linksys EtherFast cable/DSL Router model BEFSR41 ($20), and a Katron 10BASE-T Ethernet hub 8 Plus model Hub/8 ($10) and now have tofigure which to use?

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > Just talk louder and be more persistent; they'll reach a point where ^^^^^^ More loudly ;) > they'll either listen or fire you; it the later, no great loss since > it doesn't sound like they're worth working for. Actually, aside from having no clue how to run their computer systems, they're really good people, and I like them. That's my dilemma. I put up with them because I really do like my job, and especially in the current market, that makes me very lucky. > > agreed to follow their rules, and will have to do that > until they make > > more sane rules. > Why? I'm at a loss as to how I can make things any more clear. :/ Sorry. > > In other words, when I took their job, I gave them > > my word. > You gave them your word that you'd act like a good little obedient > dimwit? Why would anyone promise to do that? I suggest that you > run emacs and invoke doctor ("M-x doctor") to get some help. ;-) Actually, I prefer the stand-alone eliza program. > One can always refuse to work with that Micro$oft rubbish. Perhaps you The other option is to do the best you can with the crap that they already have, and if (when!) that's ever not good enough, to explain exactly why. > could educate your employer's clients; tell them all about the big > mistakes that they're making by wanting to use that Micro$oft > virusware which is broken, and otherwise annoying, by design. Don't > mince words, tell it like it is, and tell them that no reasonably > intelligent computer hacker would work with that rubbish unless it was > as part of a project to change over to a UNIX system, or VMS, or even > CP/M... that is, changing over to a system that doesn't destroy data I have made it extremely clear in the past (... and yes, I used just these words) that "we'd be much better off using CP/M." I'll probably make that statement many more times, and I don't really expect they'll change anything because of it. Perhaps I can have some kind of influence on new projects during the initial design stage by voicing my objection to the use of any microsoft product. Again -- this time to them -- I have no idea how I can make it any more clear. > and do other peculiar things with files. Ask them why they like > operating systems that molest data... someone needs to make an "Eddy > Electron" like film, that's Monty Pythonish, called "Pfe$ter, the > Micro $oft Mole$ter," showing him doing strange things with bits of > data as they flow through the computer. Sort of an "educational" film, like "Data Flows Red on The Hard Disk?" Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

24 years, 4 months

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Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format))

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> > > > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > > > > > > Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're > > > right about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, > > > and 18 Bit integers. > > You sure about the CDC-6600? The complete word length was 60 bits, and I > > seem to recall that for the purposes of characters, there were 10 6 bit > > characters stored per word. http://www.scd.ucar.edu/computers/gallery/cdc/6600.html > The PPUs were 12 bitters. > > Sorry, yes, I should think before writeing. Of course, > the CDCs used weired 6 Bit teleype codings for character > representation. The CDC 6000 Series and its follow-ons were machines that had a Central processor with a 60-bit word and Peripheral & Control Processors that had a 12-bit word (ignoring the 64-bit word and 16-bit words of the 180 Series). As most definitions of "byte" revolve around it being a basic unit of *storage*, I would point out that 12-bits was the smallest unit of storage that could be manipulated without shifting & masking. Its *character* size, therefore, being 6-bits, was different from its *byte* size... This made implementing a C compiler a large headache, I'm told... -dq

24 years, 4 months

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Network Hub selection help needed

by tim＠snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk

Pete Turnbull wrote: >On Apr 21, 2:34, Chad Fernandez wrote: >> I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I >> need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks >> yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. >> It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I >> thought >> I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe >> something commercial grade, However. I thought about something >> from IBM >> or 3Com, any suggestions?? > >Go for autosensing 10/100baseT. If you're going to spend any amount of >money, you want to protect your investment by including 100baseT >capability >even if you don't need it right now. > >If you see a decent modern 3Com hub or switch, that's fine but most >of the >second-hand stuff I've seen is 10baseT only. I wouldn't bother >looking for >IBM. Baystack, 3Com, HP, Cisco are the ones you're likely to see. And >Netgear, which is almost entirely unmanaged kit, but quite good quality. My two pence worth... I'd not touch 3Com with a bargepole if I were you, particularly if it's "commercial grade" you're after. 3Com decided commercial customers weren't worth their bother some time ago. This is only a direct problem if their crock-of-!"?% CoreBuilder/SuperStack boxes bring down your entire network on a regular basis of course. And only a major problem if one of said boxes going down automatically crashes the so-called redundant failover. Unfortunately, 3Com equipment has satisfied both the above criteria too many times for my liking. That rant over with, more important piece of advice: If you go for a used HP switch, and it's advertised as 100Mb/s, make sure it is actually 100baseT you are getting. HP had their own standard (100VG) that will not work with 100baseT kit (at least some are 100VG only - they won't even downgrade to 10baseT.) If it's "commercial" stuff you're after (which I generally interpret as meaning 19" rackmount kit with redundant failover options and a whole host of SNMP security holes to close down before you can actually put into service,) then I'm afraid Cisco are a good bet. Other than that, I've got a Netgear hub at home that has never caused me a day of trouble. And it fits my criteria of being in a metal box :-). (IMHO, if the case is made of cheap plastic, then what's inside probably is as well...[*]) Alternatively, you could try building yourself a Teddy Borg: http://draco.mit.edu/teddyborg/ Cheers, Tim. [*] Cheap, that is. Not necessarily plastic. But probably ;-). -- Tim Walls at home in Croydon - Reply to tim(a)snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk

24 years, 4 months

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One-upsmanship

by Robert_Feldman＠jdedwards.com

Well now, I just saw the NCSC at Urbana. Each air handler there (there are 2) is about the size of 4 semi trailers parked side-by-side. And talk about power usage: the building has a 2 megawatt line coming into it. -----Original Message----- From: Jay West [mailto:jwest@classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:01 AM To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: One-upsmanship I think that certainly one of the criteria should be the HVAC required... "My computer requires more tons of AC cooling than yours" Jay West

24 years, 4 months

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classiccmp-digest V1 #927

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> I would also guess that older versions of AppleShare Server might have a > MacIP router built in. Apple must have offered a solution for it, I can't > believe they would provide all the client end tools and not have some way > of unwrapping it other than depending on a 3rd party program (which is > the only app I have seen that does it, but I am sure there must be > others). I can't recall if AppleShare IP 5.0 includes MacIP routing or not, but Apple bundled a product with it called Vicom Internet Gateway, which did/does include MacIP routing. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits

24 years, 4 months

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Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

by dquebbeman＠acm.org

> Many would put OS/360 in that category. > > Some CDC 6600 OSs (I think NOS, maybe others) have permanent and > temporary files. If your batch job ends and you haven't made your > temporary files permanent, they will be gone. This unintuitive feature > persisted after CDC added an interactive terminal interface to the > underlying batch functionality. You could call that dangerous to data > (and I wouldn't disagree with you). > > I hope I haven't messed up those facts... someone will > probably correct me if I have. Doug Q.? NOS 1 followed Kronos by providing the TELEX subsystem for interactive use. TELEX provided an environment modeled a lot after the ones found inside BASIC interpreters, namely, you issue commands like OLD, NEW, RUN, etc... In fact, that was TELEX's primary purpose in life. It also provided a "batch" mode where you would simply type control- cards one at a time. But most everyone use the interactive modes. As to the file modes being counterintutive, they're really not, once you hold you head the right way... Just as in DEC-10 or other BASICs, if you typed NEW, a LOCAL file was created. Anythying you typed following a line number because part of the local file's contents. Of course, if you type a program in, and didn't type SAVE prior to logout, the file would be lost because you hadn't made it into a permanent file (PFILE). But as I say, this was the same was most BASIC interpreter environments worked,,, -dq

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On April 22, Raymond Moyers wrote: > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes This frightens me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On April 22, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Why would anyone outside the UNIX/APPLE world care about postscript files? > That was once a popular format, but things change. Uhh, what? What color is the sky in your world, Dick? Postscript is The Way Things Are Done for high-end output. Even on PeeCees. Let me guess...you're saying this because YOU don't have a Postscript printer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den

24 years, 4 months

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duh

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

Ignore that. It's late. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den

24 years, 4 months

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Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On April 22, Raymond Moyers wrote: > Things have been happening out here, we have had this > factor called "progress",, there has been advancement ! Oh Christ. Yes, progress...with Perl...to completely unreadable, unmaintainable, unbearably slow code. No, thanks. I'll also pass on the flame war...I've already been trolled enough for one night. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den

24 years, 4 months

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