- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by charlesmorris＠direcway.com

>From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> >What about switches for the front panel, that is a big expense too. There are 20 inexpensive tactile-feedback pushbuttons on the 8/A programmer's panel, not paddle switches. IIRC they were less than $1 each including the separate keytop. Vince would have the exact figure. >>The other major ticket item for this project is the front >>plate. Anyone know where we can get those done inexpensively? >What about a local machine shop? The front panel runs $90 in single quantities from Frontpanelexpress.com. (They get cheaper in quantity too). NO way a machinist with a Bridgeport would be able to do one for that! $90 would pay for 2 hrs labor (if you're lucky) and I think it would take far longer to do each one. Not even counting the engraved, color-filled legend at each LED and switch position. All of that is done by computer-controlled machine in minutes directly from the panel design software's output file. -Charles ps still looking for a bootable OS/8 RL02 pack for my 8/A, can anyone please help?

20 years, 10 months

4
3
0 0

HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure

by dwight＠ca2h0430.amd.com

>From: "Tequi Lizer" <tequilizer at gmx.net> > >I recently acquired a HP 9845C option 280 (was looking for it for a >really long time). > >The machine is in an overall good condition, however it hangs during >memory test ("MEMORY TEST IN PROGRESS"), even after cleaning all board >connectors, resocketing all ROMs & repeated control-stop's. Before >entering nirvana the printer outputs a couple of memory addresses. >Although lots of defects may be responsible, I assume there is a >combination of both a bad RAM chip and a ROM failure, since a RAM defect >alone should (?) not crash the system during the test. > >The printout looks like this: > >000000 100112 052525 >000000 110112 052525 >000000 120112 052525 >000000 130112 052525 ---snip--- Hi It looks like it is more likely that you are having a data bus buffer or address buffer issue than a massive RAM/ROM failure. You might look at things with a 'scope or logic analyser. Dwight

20 years, 10 months

1
0
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FPGA VAX update

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, "Peter C. Wallace" <pcw at mesanet.com> wrote: > On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, "Peter C. Wallace" <pcw at mesanet.com> wrote: > > > >> Well since its pretty easy to get microcode to run at 75-100 MHz or so in > >> current cheap FPGAs, I'd say that 10 X a 780 should be trivial... > > > > I'd say that's wrong. Considering that the VAX8650 microcode engine runs > > at 68 MHz and manages about 7 times the 11/780, you're optimistic. > > The 8650 have a very large microcode word, actually have three (or was > > it four?) microcode engines running in parallell, and some very advanced > > cacheing and pipelining to speed it up to get even that far. > > > Not sure, but my guess is that a lot of that sophisticated caching and > pipelining was needed to get the microengine to run at that 68 MHz because of > the chip-chip delays in a large multi-chip design. The 8650 is all ECL, man. We're talking really fast gates here... > Current cheap FPGAs can manage 75-100 MHz with no pipelining. They can > also do 32 bit adds/subtracts in < 7 or so nS. I doubt if the 8650s hardware > could manage that. Would be interesting to know the average number of > microinstructions per macroinstruction on the 8650... It probably can do that. Without actually knowing, I would guess it requires much less than 7 ns for an add/substract. However, since we're talking about a pipelined machine here, you also have register copyback in the pipe, fp stuff, the memory management with page relocation, TLB cache, internal processor registers, and lots of other stuff going on. There is a lot of things to cover. And since you have several micromachines, register updates also needs to get duplicated to the other micromachines. I think I have the documentation for the microcode for the different engines, and I also have the binary microcode files... Anyone want to take a crack at this? :-) And of course, with a VAX, you have the bloody instruction fetch and decode stuff which really is a pain. Get first byte, figure out how many arguments it takes. Get the next byte and start parsing for the first argument, which might be a whole number of bytes, then continue with the next argument. Worst instructions take five arguments if I remember correctly. On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >I'd say that's wrong. Considering that the VAX8650 microcode engine runs > >at 68 MHz and manages about 7 times the 11/780, you're optimistic. > >The 8650 have a very large microcode word, actually have three (or was > >it four?) microcode engines running in parallell, and some very advanced > >cacheing and pipelining to speed it up to get even that far. > > > > > > > Also compared to a smaller machine -- remember you have floating point > stuff as well > as the basic instruction set. I forgot about that too. That is a fast > engine -- about 15 ns. Yeah, there are some reasons why I like the 86x0 series... They are quite brutal in their way... A number of patents DEC made on the 86x0 series (among others) were what the fight with Intel about the Pentium and patent infringement was about in the mid 90s. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

4
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Any own an 11/725...?

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, "Curt @ Atari Museum" <curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote: > I know of one person on the list who owns such a beastie, I'm curious if > anyone else owns an 11/725 and would consider possibly selling/trading it? You'll probably hate me for telling that I threw an 11/730 away less than a year ago. But it was in Sweden, and I doubt anyone would want to pay for the shipping. But the hardware I still keep around is much more interesting... :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

6
9
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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:43:59 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> The 8650 is all ECL, man. We're talking really fast gates here... > >The 8650 was pretty slow for an ECL machine, as I think it was just >10K. That really is not a big step above something using 74ASxx series >technology. 100K, MECL III, 10G and 10E were the fast ECLs. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org Yep, 86xx was ECL10k and a little of the early ECLx (early next generation). The 9000 was the ECL100K+ packaging. So an 86xx was still above 10nS for a full adder with lookahead. There is also something that came out of the RISC camp. The more stuff running in (hopefully) lockstep (multiple microengines) the more work on timing margins needs to be done. Critical paths for logic dominate and system speed will be slower. the MicroVAX-I was almost the other end of the spectrum. It was almost how much can be taken out and still be a creditable vax. That simplification was an important clue for the VAX on silicon (uV-II) as to hove much had to be there and how fast. I'd think if you simplify the 780 to eliminate the busses other than local ones and then implement using new tech the scalar result could be quite fast. However if the goal is to make a 780 with all the busses common to it for the IO and storage you'll end up with a more logic to implement the busses than the core CPU in hardware. One look at the microVAX series will show even though the cpu was reduced to trivial number of chips the total board space wraped around it was for busIO. the best contrast is the uVaxII (qbus) and the uVAX2000. They are close in performance (exact same CPU) but miles apart in power needed and chip count. This pattern occurs throughout the industry with just about every cpu that comes to mind. Allison

20 years, 10 months

1
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ASR32 available in NYC

by vcf＠siconic.com

Is anyone interested in a Teletype ASR32 with paper and paper tape? Unknown working condition but in decent physical condition. Comes with some rolls of printout paper and paper tape. Most likely pick-up only in NYC. I'll explain why if you're interested and you e-mail me. Asking price is $100 (might be negotiable). Please contact me off-list for details. P.S. Another ASR33 sold on eBay for $730(!) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

20 years, 10 months

1
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PDP-8/A Front Panels

by Steven_R_Hutchins＠Raytheon.com

http://www.protoexpress.com/ I have used them for years. excellent product, great price, fast turn, small quantity OK |---------+-----------------------------> | | "vrs" | | | <vrs at msn.com> | | | Sent by: | | | cctech-bounces at cla| | | ssiccmp.org | | | | | | | | | 10/20/2005 02:19 | | | PM | | | Please respond to | | | "General | | | Discussion: | | | On-Topic Posts | | | Only" | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> | | cc: | | Subject: Re: PDP-8/A Front Panels | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| From: "steve" <gkicomputers at yahoo.com> > --- Vince Slyngstad <v.slyngstad at verizon.net> wrote: > > Charles Morris and I have been working to create an > > equivalent for the KC8A > > Nice, generally though the demand for something is > much greater if you actually have it ready to ship (in > case your preorder responses are low, don't get > discouraged). Thanks! > Looks like your front panel and parts cost are > constant with quantity, but your pc board drops > greatly with quantity. If I were you I would just > order 20 or so pc boards and let the buyers order the > parts and panel separately (as needed, some buyers may > not want the panel, others may already have most of > the parts). The problem with that is that it forces us to front hundreds of dollars, with no indication that we'll ever get it back. I already have boards sitting around from several projects, representing hundreds of dollars of investment on my part, that may never "sell" (even at cost). It is a lot better for us to have some idea of the demand, so we can mitigate how much "over-investment" we want to do. Though you are right, that if we found someone who would pick up the overhead cost of a board order ($200 each time), we would be way ahead. (Anyone know of a shop that can do a double-sided 16" board with solder mask and without a steep setup charge?) The other major ticket item for this project is the front plate. Anyone know where we can get those done inexpensively? Vince

20 years, 10 months

4
4
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FPGA VAX update

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, "Peter C. Wallace" <pcw at mesanet.com> wrote: > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Getting back to FPGA's, I know of a couple FPGA implementations of > > PDP-11's. (They are mostly KDJ11 clones, but they differ in a couple > > of tiny respects.) With extreme effort in the late 90's, they managed > > to make 4 FPGA's be about a factor of 2 factor on most benchmarks than > > a 11/93. And the PDP-11 is much easier to implement than a VAX. > > By the time the FPGA implementations made it to market the PC-based > > emulators were so much more cost-effective for most applications > > (despite their warts of running under a host OS...) > > > > I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a > > performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. > > Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably > > eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the > > book. > > > > Tim. > > > > Well since its pretty easy to get microcode to run at 75-100 MHz or so in > current cheap FPGAs, I'd say that 10 X a 780 should be trivial... I'd say that's wrong. Considering that the VAX8650 microcode engine runs at 68 MHz and manages about 7 times the 11/780, you're optimistic. The 8650 have a very large microcode word, actually have three (or was it four?) microcode engines running in parallell, and some very advanced cacheing and pipelining to speed it up to get even that far. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

3
2
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FlashManager 2000

by kelly＠catcorner.org

> So... My search comes right back here. Does anyone happen to > have a copy of Flash Manager? Sorry for the multiple replies, but there are: >From http://www.smartm.com/product/m_tech.cfm a reference to: ftp://cust-ftp.smartm.com/Public/memcard.inf and From: http://www.magicram.com/FAQFlash.htm Q. Why won't my Linear Flash card work under Windows 2000? A. Linear Flash Cards do not come with drivers, it has always been the OS vendor's responsibility to include support for these devices. Unlike previous versions of Windows, the Flash drivers traditionally included on Windows distributions are not included with Windows 2000. The following information explains a work around to get Windows 2000 to recognize and use Linear Flash Cards. Be certain Windows 2000 has been upgraded with at least Service Pack 1 and the host hardware supports PC Cards. OEM installed Windows 2000 should not exhibit problems, but systems upgraded from older Windows versions may need confirmation that their hardware is compatible. Please note that MagicRAM provides this work around as a customer service and does not guarantee that will work with every system configuration. 1. During the Windows 2000 hardware setup process choose Display a list of known drivers... instead of Search for a suitable driver... 2. Select the category Memory technology driver 3. Select the M-Systems DiskOnChip2000 driver from listed manufacturer M-Systems Flash Disk Pioneers 4. Click Yes on the Update Driver Warning message, continue and click Finish to complete the setup process, click No from the restart Windows message 5. Access the Device Manager and highlight M-Systems DiskOnChip2000 from the category Memory technology driver (it has the conflict symbol) 6. Access the M-Systems DiskOnChip2000 and click Update Driver from the Driver tab 7. Choose Display a list of known drivers... instead of Search for a suitable driver... when the options appear 8. You should now have more default driver options, select the Centennial PCMCIA Memory Card driver from listed manufacturer Centennial Technologies, Inc. (other drivers may work, but the Centennial driver was used successfully in testing) 9. Click Yes on the Update Driver Warning message, continue and click Finish to complete the setup process, click Ok from the properties window then Yes >from the restart Windows message 10. When Windows restarts, you should see a new drive letter and icon from "My Computer" or Windows Explorer

20 years, 10 months

1
0
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FlashManager 2000

by kelly＠catcorner.org

> So... My search comes right back here. Does anyone happen to > have a copy of Flash Manager? > Not a lot of help, but see: http://www.systemsoft.com/l-2/l-3/20010320_fm.htm Kelly

20 years, 10 months

1
0
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installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1

by Rinaldo.Eversdijk＠stork.com

Does anyone know how to install, on a alpha computer (DEC3000) running with VMS version 6.1 software, the same equipment with a new Ethernet address? Gr. Rinaldo -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any attachment(s) sent with it are intended exclusively for the addressee(s), and may not be used by, opened by, passed on to, or made available for use to, any person other than the addressee(s). Stork rules out any and all liabilities resulting from any electronic transmission.

20 years, 10 months

3
2
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Unibus SCSI (was: Any own an 11/725...?)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If anyone has a spare RC25 cart or two, I wouldn't mind picking one > > up... it's likely to be cheaper than a Unibus SCSI interface. ;-) > > Is there such a thing as a Unibus SCSI? Certainly. Several actually. CMD made the CMD 720/722, which was both disk and tape. Very good controller. I have one. Viking made a controller, and I believe Emulex also made one. There were probably one or two other manufacturers as well. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

2
1
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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, "Martin Bishop" <mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org> wrote: > QUOTE The 8/A cannot have an EAE UNQUOTE > > Don't think this is correct. Because, such a machine would have no serious > (integer) arithmetic capability. Speaking of integer arithmetic capability: the 8/A systems where you wanted better numeric crunch were expected to be fitted with the FPP8A, which can do both integer and FP stuff, and does it much better. (One of the options I'd like to find to play with, but haven't...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

1
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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, "Martin Bishop" <mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org> wrote: > QUOTE The 8/A cannot have an EAE UNQUOTE > > Don't think this is correct. Because, such a machine would have no serious > (integer) arithmetic capability. Also, the PDP 8/A Minicomputer Handbook > 1976/77 has a lengthy section [pp9-56 .. 9-65] on the KE8-E (Extended > Arithmetic Element : EAE). However, the "PDP-8 Summary of Models and > Options" (posted by Doug Jones) indicates that the EAE can be fitted iff the > PDP-8/E CPU boardset is fitted. That is PDP-8/A models 600/620 were fitted > with the KK8E CPU and optionally the 8/E EAE. And, I imagine "field > specials" were doubtless built. > > Another wrinkle; correction invited. As I said, some 8/A systems were fitted with 8/E CPUs. It's actually almost on the verge of terminology confusion. I should probably have written explicitly that it's the KK8A that cannot have an EAE, while the KK8E can. However, there are no "field specials". The KK8A simply cannot have an EAE. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

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Any own an 11/725...?

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > On 10/23/05, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote: > > You'll probably hate me for telling that I threw an 11/730 away less than > > a year ago. > > But it was in Sweden, and I doubt anyone would want to pay for the > > shipping. > > I would have been happy to pay shipping for the CPU boards. I might have those still around (hate to throw things). Let me check... Oh, and remind me in a week or three. ;-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

1
0
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Fan for DEC H7861 power supply?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:32:14 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/23/2005 at 9:22 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>If it has the same CFM rating and the same wattage, what does it matter? > >Noise level, maybe, but who cares? > >Cheers, >Chuck > What changes is the ability to push a given CFM against a head (backpressure). As to who care's? Officially not I. Unofficially as someone that's got one running and all, cooling is life for electronics. Anything running nearly 200W of DC is going to need a little breeze lest it become a pizza oven. There are alot of boards that will live longer and all if there is enough air passing over them. It's a good thing. Allison

20 years, 10 months

2
1
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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net> wrote: > I have something that you want? Too bad, it's mine. I'm not sharing. I never said that I'm not sharing! I just can't say who gave me my copy of the VAXBI spec to protect that person, but s/he has told that s/he has no problem with me spreading the spec further. I've got it in scanned form, so it's too big to go on my FTP site, but I can send you a copy on paper or CD-R. MS

20 years, 10 months

1
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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? 1. I don't want an emulator, I want The Real Thing (tm). 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to contaminate my house with a pee sea. MS

20 years, 10 months

10
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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> wrote: > Wow, where did you find the specs? I have to protect my source. MS

20 years, 10 months

2
1
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Todays stuff

by marvin＠rain.org

I've been waiting for several years, but finally got the opportunity to pick up a bunch of classic stuff today (with a garage still left to be emptied.) Included are two Poly 88s plus a couple of chassis's and parts, a Lobo Drives LX expansion chassis, a LOT of floppy disks that look like they came from Lobo Drives when they went out of business, and a bunch of Apple boards and docs. Some of this stuff (along with a LOT more) will be available up at VCF. As usual, I'm starting to make a list of things and will post it a couple of days before heading up to VCF.

20 years, 10 months

1
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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > Well, you might have a real core, but there's the problem of providing real > I/O. Are you going to implement Unibus and QBus too? No, I'll implement something far better - VAXBI! MS

20 years, 10 months

3
2
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Book worms

by KParker＠workcover.com

I am trying to identify a book that I want to get. My vague recollection is that it was about IBM or IBM Blue and may have been about the history of IBM or one of its owners/directors. I vaguely recall the front cover had a man standing in it. Does this ring a bell with anyone. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************

20 years, 10 months

3
2
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Book worms

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Peter Norton I have the programmers guide for IBM PC and PS2. There were others from Peter Norton. Allison > >Subject: Book worms > From: "Parker, Kevin" <KParker at workcover.com> > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:14:23 +0930 > To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >I am trying to identify a book that I want to get. > >My vague recollection is that it was about IBM or IBM Blue and may have >been about the history of IBM or one of its owners/directors. > >I vaguely recall the front cover had a man standing in it. > >Does this ring a bell with anyone. > >++++++++++ >Kevin Parker >Web Services Consultant >WorkCover Corporation > >p: 08 8233 2548 >m: 0418 806 166 >e: kparker at workcover.com >w: www.workcover.com > >++++++++++ > >************************************************************************ >This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may >contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality >and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you >are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > >Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the >WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have >been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files >transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > >If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any >copies. >************************************************************************ >

20 years, 10 months

1
0
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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jos Dreesen <jos.mar at bluewin.ch> wrote: > While not directly targetting X or A, a rather good set of > freeware tools for VLSI development is available at : > > > http://www-asim.lip6.fr/recherche/alliance/ I'm well aware of Alliance and it's awesome, but it's for ASICs rather than FPGAs. The interesting question is whether the P&R function from Alliance could be ported to an FPGA. Suppose we found an FPGA for which we have a complete definition of the routing fabric and configuration image format, or obtained this information for some common commercial FPGA through someone with the right connections or through reverse engineering. We would still need a P&R tool, which is a very major task. I wonder if the P&R function from Alliance could be adapted to the task. But I don't know any of the fundamental theory behind P&R in ASICs versus FPGAs to know whether this could be done or if it's a totally different problem. Now if we only had the bucks to fab a real chip instead of screwing with FPGAs... Then we could use Alliance and go completely open source from start to finish. Does anyone know how much does it cost to fab a chip? MS

20 years, 10 months

4
4
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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a > performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. Yes, that's about what I expect to get in my first implementation. I would be quite satisfied with it, for my very first CPU chip design. MS

20 years, 10 months

1
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SMD Disk AnalyzerAvailible

by ken＠seefried.com

I have a Wilson Laboratories, Inc. MWX-1000S SMD Disk Analyzer that I'd like to see go to someone that can use it for the benefit of the Classiccmp community. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea if it works and have no way to test it, though it came into my hands with the claim that it worked. I'll send it for the cost of postage. It's in the form-factor of a modest size suitcase and weighs about 18 lbs, near as I can figure. Please contact me off list. Ken

20 years, 10 months

1
0
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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:04:22 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> >P&R is mostly sorting is my guess. However my designs view point for >open source >is being able to keep the computer system capable of bootstaping itself. >Looking at the >latest version of red-hat I find it hard to do any real development work >as everything >is becoming too interconnected with every thing else. P&R is taking the available resources those being: number of PINS on the package that are for input output or either. Number of macrocells Avalable number of "wires" in the routing array (like crosspoint switches) The devices I'd worked with are two generations (or more) old and it was hard to fully use the available cells or if you did you were hitting the routing limits. However the number of possible terms are HUGE. >PS. I like small computers -- I just use big ones like PC's to play games. >12 to 18 bits to me is a nice sized machine. I happen to like sizes that are multiples of 8 (8, 16 and 24) however 12bits are special to me. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:26:04 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: > >>70ns was 1982 tech level. Tech for 1995 was 25ns for memory. >>Current is under 1ns. >> >>Don't forget one of the features of current hardware is the 1ns/ft >>barrier is outside the chip. >> >> >> >The current CPU design barrier for me is the Beer Budget I have. >This gets me 70 ns memory and 20 ns/logic cell programable devices >and standard slow I/O devices. In 1982 I used a PDP-8/e so that >is a speed I am looking at. 1985 an XT. >Lets just say FPGA design is 1 generation slower than the latest >techology. From what little I have seen of custom design as the >designs shrink ( I still think in terms of 5 volt TTL ) layout rather >than switching speed is what will slow you down. Well on my less than beer budget (I'm cheap) The static 32k byte devices I've pulled off of old 386 and 486 board are 25ns and below. Now he typical 30pin simms are 70ns dynamic rams. The core for PDP-8e generation was the limiting factor at 1.5uS or more than 20 times slower. The FPGAs I was playing with are as fast as late 70s TTL so there is no reason I cant do a faster PDP-8 with "old stuff". Then again the PDP-8e was limited by the 1970s tech of core speed not logic speed it could esily go faster if core could keep up. The mid 80s 6120 (Decmate II and III) CMOS pdp8 chip was faster too despite being microprogramed and multiplxed bus. However if your assumption that FPGA is one speed generation behind current silicon that makes it still under 1ns/cell which is plenty fast. Granted there is some speed penelty for nonoptimum routing. People that have done PDP-8s in FPGAs easily exceed the basic 8e speeds save for they don't seem to push them at all. As to the 1982 XT, that was slow by then standards by a factor of not less than 2. In 1982 the 8086/88 was up to 10mhz already. Allison

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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:03:34 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> wrote: > >> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.harhan.org> writes: >> >> Michael> Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: >> >> If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC >> >> version? >> >> Michael> 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to >> Michael> contaminate my house with a pee sea. >> >> SIMH would run on a Mac, wouldn't it? >> >> :-) >> >> paul >> > >SIMH will run on a VAX, in fact :-). > >Getting back to FPGA's, I know of a couple FPGA implementations of >PDP-11's. (They are mostly KDJ11 clones, but they differ in a couple >of tiny respects.) With extreme effort in the late 90's, they managed >to make 4 FPGA's be about a factor of 2 factor on most benchmarks than >a 11/93. > >By the time the FPGA implementations made it to market the PC-based >emulators were so much more cost-effective for most applications >(despite their warts of running under a host OS...) > >I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a >performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. >Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably >eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the >book. > >Tim. Considering that 2901C (750ALU) was 100ns (1982 timeframe) I'd think by now the latest FPGAs are easily able to beat that by a factor of 25 or more. So I think that's on the low side. Without pipelining to any great extent and the availability of far faster memory than the mid 80s. I'd think 10x is shooting low. Seriously the more you put on the chip the faster it will go as busses are still working at ~1ns/ft and them chips are at best less than .2". The cray XMP was the tour de force around those limits back in the 80s. I'd think the real factor is that the VAX was CISC to the extreme and the microVAX (320780 chip) was on the order of 1-2million transistor equivilent gives one an idea of the task size though. Allison

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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:58:39 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>Slightly OT: How fast (in comparison to the original 11/780) do PC-based >>emulators run? My only close-up exposure with this line was a couple of >>years with an 11/750. It didn't seem like a speed demon then. >> The 750 was around .6 to .7 a 780 for the cpu however the mass storage systems for the 780s were more elaborate and faster. >The emulators run alot faster, but the problem is the 11 is still a >commerical product >so I don't think we will get better new hardware out. > >>If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? An >>intellectual exercise? Or will the FPGA version run an order of magnitude >>faster than the original? >> >> >I suspect about the same speed as PC's 15 years ago or 74Sxx speeds. >The real speed limit on computers >now days is the cache memory. A external bus depending on memory used >is the factor. >Most common memory is about 120 ns to 70 ns access time unless you want >to use the latest >chips. 70ns was 1982 tech level. Tech for 1995 was 25ns for memory. Current is under 1ns. Don't forget one of the features of current hardware is the 1ns/ft barrier is outside the chip. Allison

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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:09:48 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> I think fab a real chip would be a better idea -- but then how many >> people want a vax? >> Ok, I don't . Looking at a different post the vax has large microcode, >> so a FPGA that >> can have internal ram be configured as micro-code tables would be handy. > >Did all VAX machines have microcode? > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org Far as I know, yes. For the 7xx series absolutely. There was limited rom microcode to enable booting and diags but the bulk of it was loaded at boot. Soft loaded microcode (ignoring emulated instructions) mostly disappeared with the Microvax and later VAX on silicon. Allison

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Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1"

by vcf＠siconic.com

...or Another Reason Why I Fricking Hate eBay Sorry this is so long, but it's worth a read in case you ever happen upon an item being offered by this seller. Read this before you get burned. So a couple weeks ago I asked one of my employees to go on eBay and find an external power supply for this cute little Dell P4 system that I got in without the P/S. He dutifully went onto eBay, found the most reasonably priced item with a Buy It Now, and bought it for me. Later, when I went to pay for the item, I noticed that the seller had 26000+ feedback total, with 1700 postive and 34 negative just in the past month. If it were me, I would've avoided this seller like a foul odor in the air, but my naive teenage employee doesn't know better. So anyway, from past experience, I figured there was probably a 50/50 chance this would go well, because like, what are the odds that a wall wart (more like a big slab) would be bad? So I went ahead and sent the PayPal payment. A week later (yesterday) I receive my item. The first thing I did before plugging it into my computer was check the voltages, because even though the seller claimed it was "TESTED WORKING, NO DOA", I didn't want to take the chance of this thing zapping the computer. So what do you know, I get no voltage. Then I notice the LED is out. I try another power cord but it's pretty plainly dead. Oh bother. I called the seller this morning (before the generous 7 day "DOA warranty" runs out) and get some lady that tells me someone will call me back. Later in the morning I get an e-mail explaining their RMA procedure. So now I'm being required to ship the item back to them on my dime. I think the conclusion of this warning can be aptly made by simply posting some of the negative feedback this seller has gotten in the past week ([-] means negative feedback, [N] means neutral): [-] Won item, didn't have item, ordered, never received, recd full refund 4wks later - geb249 Oct-13-05 11:16 (5811227432) [-] The computer doenst work!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - adilsonmarin Oct-12-05 12:21 (5232544487) Reply by bobsbid1: Windows you need to install windows, or better yet get a mac:)) [N] no coment - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:02 (5809582719) Reply by bobsbid1: seems a shame to neg him for a misspelled feedback oh what the... heres your neg [-] buy blinking book-ends here - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:01 (6803142818) Reply by bobsbid1: get them while they are hot!! they wont last at these prices remember you need 2 [-] DIDNT GET THE PRICE YOU WANTED SO THAT WHY YOU DIDNT SHIP? STAY AWAY FRAUD.!!!! - thaiartcrafts_com Oct-11-05 16:05 (5811566861) Reply by bobsbid1: we got a grand for a 50.00 item and he is mad because we lost it? [-] GEFORCE 4 TI 4200 DOSE?NT WORK NOT FUNCTIONAL - NOT DOA - BEWARE - goodfriday Oct-11-05 14:48 (8703050567) Reply by bobsbid1: his spell checker does'nt work either:) do you think it was his kumputer? Follow-up by goodfriday: There policy should have read -AS IS- 7yrs100% on ebay you decide. [N] Excellent selection & products, fast delivery, Poor customer service - cdnbud Oct-07-05 08:32 (5219793883) Reply by bobsbid1: This is a self sevice site would you mind picking on yourself elsewhere? [-] BUYERS BEWARE! Totally mis represented item and will not return. DO NOT BUY! - bhickster2ir3m Oct-07-05 04:48 (5812863214) Reply by bobsbid1: WARNING NON READERS! IT IS NOT TO LATE** STAY IN SCHOOL** And this is just within the LAST 7 DAYS. Notice that he automatically leaves negative feedback for the buyer if the buyer leaves him either negative or even NEUTRAL feedback. Needless to say, I strenuously suggest you do NOT attempt to do business with this lout. With all the revenues eBay generates from this junk dealer, I doubt they'll do anything about him, which is why I felt compelled to post a warning to the list. With all the business they do, I figure at least one other person here might benefit from my experience. As for me, I sent the seller an e-mail asking them to just refund my money and be done with it. If that doesn't work, I'm just going to go straight to PayPal with my complaint and try to get a straight refund. It'll be more productive than trying to go through with the seller's absolutely ridiculous RMA process. The auction in question: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6807210038 You've been warned. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

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Found FPGA solution (tentative)

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Hello again, It looks like I have found a workable FPGA solution for my project that involves no Winblows and no GUI. It isn't 100% open source, but it IS 100% command line, which is most important to me. I didn't realise that Xilinx apparently supports Linux in the free "webpack" version of its tools, and this "webpack" supports Virtex II, which would be the appropriate FPGA family for my project if going the Xilinx route. I'm downloading the Linux version of the ISE 7.1 "webpack" right now. When it finishes downloading, I'll see if I can make it do what I want, which is to use the command line P&R tools as a back-end for Icarus Verilog like shown in Icarus documentation, targeting Virtex II. MS

20 years, 10 months

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How to test 4116 ?s ?

by jos.mar＠bluewin.ch

I have a couple of 4116 DRAM's that I like to test. My approach will be to put an ic socket in a ZX spectrum and just fire it up with the DUT in the socket. Speccie works -> DRAM chip OK Speccie does not work -> DRAM chip dead. Is this too simpleminded , or are there better ways to test 4116's ? Jos I

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Fan for DEC H7861 power supply?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:38:24 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from >> console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is >> dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861 >> power supply? > >I know DEC used some odd fans in some of their machines (e.g. the 35V >75Hz ones in the 11/44 cabinet), but is there anything particularly odd >about this one? Most of the time you can find something that will replace >them. > >-tony Dead plain nothing special. Allison

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Character Generator ROM data

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Character Generator ROM data > From: Chuck Swiger <cswiger at widomaker.com> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:47:44 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Gang - > > Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video >cards to >paint ascii characters on a display. > >For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) card uses >an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that >font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in >google w/o >anything usable turning up. Is simple. Find a pattern you like in row or colum scan and convert the bit pattern to a string of hex values and cook an Eprom/EEPROM. Myself I needed a while back a 7x9 that had decenders one of the M6571 series has that so I found that data sheet. They fit easily into a 2716 or similar. Hint where they go in rom is based on SxC IE: number of scan lines typically 11 or 12 for 7x9 fonts and the number of characters. For 7x9 CRT fonts (ROW scanned) the low 4 addresses lines are the row data and the next 7 (128 char font) are the character address. Nothing magic. Allison

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OT: Tube Audio

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: OT: Tube Audio > From: William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:39:12 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> I'm halfway willing to officially sanction all discussion of antique radios >> ;) > >That half might get you punched in the nose. > >Actually, there are no good antique radio groups/lists - all are watered >down. There is a good military radio list, however. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > That and we reaching the point where computers and radios that contain or are married to them are over 10 years old (some a whole lot older, think Pioneer). Allison

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cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 69

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

stevew <stevew at ka6s.com> wrote: > There is a program called Veritakwin running on Windows that is $50 and is > many times faster (4-5X) than Icarus. If it's for Winblows, why are you even telling me about it? It is illegal to bring a Winblows machine across the threshold of my house. > It is a windowed environment and has a built in wave-form viewer. I don't want a windowed environment or a waveform viewer, I want to do all my development from an ASR33! That's why I love Icarus Verilog, it is 100% command line. Although unfortunately it wants "modern UNIX" and won't build under 4.3BSD (written in C++ for a start), since it's command line I can have it running on my Linux box and use it from my main development VAX via rsh. > Second - the Xilinx tool is running native on Linux but is a bit flakey for > 6.0. OK, that's good to know. > What I don't understand is - Why not use the Synthesis tool in Webpack as > well? Why even BOTHER with Icarus for this part of the tool chain? Because I want to, for religious reasons. > It isn't as good as Synplify - but it DOES work most of the time?????? I don't want a good tool, I want a free one (free as in speech). Freedom is more important than quality to me. I'll gladly settle for a design that requires a 10 times larger FPGA than necessary and has a 10 times lower maximum clock speed if it can be done with free-as-in-speech tools. > Good luck with your project. > > Steve Wilson (Professional Verilog slinger) Thanks, MS, religious zealot, evangelist of Free Software and command line environment.

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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > Now that I have an apparently functioning PDP-8/A with 16K of core, and > (hopefully soon) a working RL02, I am wondering what operating system > would be appropriate. Currently I don't have any other input device > aside from the programmer's panel and the keyboard, so naturally I need > something that can be booted from an RL02... > > Any recommendations? Will software written for, say, an 8/E or 8/I run > on an 8/A without patching? > Could I run OS/8? TSS/8? Many years ago I used to have access to a TTY > timeshared to an 8/E running Edusystem 50 (TSS/8) and would like that > "feel" again... The only OSes I know of that supports the RL8A is OS/8 and RTS-8. For OS/8, one RL02 will look like five disks (it's huge! :-) ). Yes, as far as software is concerned, most everything written for an 8/I or 8/E will also run on an 8/A. I say most, since there are some incompatibilties that could bite you. But then you're playing with undocumented opcodes, or hardware that is optional. However, the 8/E and 8/A are *very* similar. In fact, some 8/A systems had the KK8E CPU in them. Things that are incompatible, as far as I can remember offhand right now: BSW instruction exists only on 8/E and 8/A. MQ register exists always on 8/E and 8/A, but only exists on 8/I if you have EAE. The 8/A cannot have an EAE. The EAE of the 8/E can run in two modes, where one is compatible with the EAE of the 8/I. If you execute a RAR RAL, you'll get different results depending on CPU. I don't remember exactly what the 8/I does, but the 8/E will load the AC with the PC for the high five bits, while the low seven will be fixed (can't remember the exact value). The 8/A will load the AC with the PC. But since all this stuff is things most programs don't do, it should not bite you. (I know that KERMIT-12 uses these tricks to decide what kind of CPU you actually are running on.) Since RTS-8 is a bit magic, in addition to being a bit hard to get perhaps, I'd say you should go with OS/8. RTS-8 uses OS/8 for the interactive work anyhow, so you won't get much extra fun out of it, unless you're really starting to write some special software. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 69

by stevew＠ka6s.com

On Saturday 22 October 2005 11:37 pm, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) >Subject: FPGA VAX update >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <0510230037.AA21104 at ivan.Harhan.ORG> >Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, Stuff deleted - >I'll be using Icarus to compile Verilog to EDIF. I have heard sermons >from "paid professional" chip designers working on the dark side (making >non-free designs with non-free tools) about how inferior it is compared >to whatever non-free shit they use, but I don't care, freedom is more >important to me than quality. (And I mean free as in speech, not as in >beer.) Michael, First of all - I love Icarus (I must - I organized and wrote the test suite for it ;-) and I use it for module level stuff at home before I import to the professional tools BUT there is another option for simulation. There is a program called Veritakwin running on Windows that is $50 and is many times faster (4-5X) than Icarus. It is a windowed environment and has a built in wave-form viewer. Think Mentor modelsim like. You might think about it as a verilog too. The implementation is more complete than Icarus and also faster. >The problem is of course with place & route and the actual FPGA bitstream >or SOF (SRAM object file) generation. The first part of the problem is >that the fucking FPGA vendors won't give us a complete description of >the FPGA routing fabric and bitstream/SOF format. The second part of >the problem is that even if this information were pried out or reverse- >engineered, someone would still have to write an open source P&R tool, >which is a *major* task - certainly not for me, designing a VAX CPU is >enough work for me, I don't need the extra task of developing an FPGA >P&R tool. There are only two practical choices when it comes to the actual target FPGA: A or X, which of course stand for Altera and Xilinx. I would be content with either if I could work out a usable toolchain for it that would take me from EDIF (Icarus Verilog output) to the SOF or bitstream file (A/X respective terminology). To make the long story short, there are two specific areas where I could use help from other listmembers: >1. The Xilinx option. The maintainer of Icarus Verilog only has >experience with Xilinx. He uses X's proprietary P&R tools, but they are >command line tools and are available for Solaris and Linux in addition >to Losedows. (I still can't figure out whether the Xilinx-blessed Linux >version is truly native or runs through WINE.) Icarus documentation >includes a complete worked-out example of a build starting from Verilog >and ending in a bitstream, feeding iverilog output (EDIF) to the command >line tools from X's proprietary software. First - Steve Williams uses this path on a daily basis for his day job, so it is a proven path. Second - the Xilinx tool is running native on Linux but is a bit flakey for 6.0. What I don't understand is - Why not use the Synthesis tool in Webpack as well? Why even BOTHER with Icarus for this part of the tool chain? It isn't as good as Synplify - but it DOES work most of the time?????? >Since this might be a workable option for me, does anyone here have the >Xilinx Foundation tools installed on a Solaris or Linux box on which I >could get an account for work on my FPGA VAX project? The Windows version is faster than the Solaris version. I believe the lInux version is faster than either...though that is from a very faulty memory. If I were setting up for a private (home) project with FPGAs today I would choose Veritakwin and Webpack as my tool chain. I get MUCH faster simulations, and a working synthesis/P&R tool in Webpack. (I've really never figured out why Steve bothered to do the Synthesis tool beyond the challenge of it...maybe that's the answer..) Good luck with your project. Steve Wilson (Professional Verilog slinger)

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FPGA VAX update

by swtpc6800＠comcast.net

Answering my own post: > all from Xilinx. After competing with NeoCad for a few years Xilinx bought > them in 1995 and used the NeoCad tools. I looked up some more facts. NeoCad was founded in November 1991 and had about 50 employees when it was sold to Xilinx in March 1995 for $35 million. The large FPGAs back then were pushing 10,000 gates. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley

20 years, 10 months

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Character Generator ROM data

by cswiger＠widomaker.com

Gang - Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video cards to paint ascii characters on a display. For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) card uses an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in google w/o anything usable turning up. ******* ***** * * * * * * * * * * * ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ***** * * --Chuck

20 years, 10 months

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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, I have made it known in the past that I have interest in designing and building a new CPU chip implementing the VAX architecture (just as DEC would have made a new implementation of the arch from the spec, not a clone of any particular past implementation), and since I don't have the $$$ to fab a real chip, it'll be a "soft chip" in an FPGA at first. This project has been on my mind for a long time, mostly far on the back burner, but some other life circumstances have recently dragged me once again into the fun world of FPGAs and HDL coding (I'm doing a consulting job that involves lots of FPGA work), and this circumstance has brought my FPGA VAX project back closer to the front of my mind. Obviously there are tons of issues involved in a project of such ambition, and I don't want to bore you all to death talking about all of them, but the one issue that I have a difficult time solving on my own is that of FPGA tools. I'll be using Icarus to compile Verilog to EDIF. I have heard sermons >from "paid professional" chip designers working on the dark side (making non-free designs with non-free tools) about how inferior it is compared to whatever non-free shit they use, but I don't care, freedom is more important to me than quality. (And I mean free as in speech, not as in beer.) The problem is of course with place & route and the actual FPGA bitstream or SOF (SRAM object file) generation. The first part of the problem is that the fucking FPGA vendors won't give us a complete description of the FPGA routing fabric and bitstream/SOF format. The second part of the problem is that even if this information were pried out or reverse- engineered, someone would still have to write an open source P&R tool, which is a *major* task - certainly not for me, designing a VAX CPU is enough work for me, I don't need the extra task of developing an FPGA P&R tool. There are only two practical choices when it comes to the actual target FPGA: A or X, which of course stand for Altera and Xilinx. I would be content with either if I could work out a usable toolchain for it that would take me from EDIF (Icarus Verilog output) to the SOF or bitstream file (A/X respective terminology). To make the long story short, there are two specific areas where I could use help from other listmembers: 1. The Xilinx option. The maintainer of Icarus Verilog only has experience with Xilinx. He uses X's proprietary P&R tools, but they are command line tools and are available for Solaris and Linux in addition to Losedows. (I still can't figure out whether the Xilinx-blessed Linux version is truly native or runs through WINE.) Icarus documentation includes a complete worked-out example of a build starting from Verilog and ending in a bitstream, feeding iverilog output (EDIF) to the command line tools from X's proprietary software. Since this might be a workable option for me, does anyone here have the Xilinx Foundation tools installed on a Solaris or Linux box on which I could get an account for work on my FPGA VAX project? 2. The Altera option. The company for which I'm currently doing the consulting project that brought me back into the FPGA world uses Altera, so I have an Altera FPGA dev board and their fucking Quartus II software. I still haven't figured out whether there is any way to use the latter without the GUI, however, and I only have the Losedows version currently and WINE isn't exactly my cup of tea. So I don't know if I'll be able to shoehorn Quartus into a backend for Icarus Verilog like the good maintainer did with Xilinx Foundation. However, one coworker tells me that he has seen an open source project that apparently reverse-engineered A's SOF format and can make an SOF >from scratch using only open source tools. Needless to say, hearing that made me salivate. The problem is, however, that this guy (my coworker) does not remember the project name, much less its home page, and I have looked for it without success both on the major open source hardware sites and with Google. The feat sounds so incredible that it may just be too good to be true. My coworker said that he'll look for it on his Linux box at home. But barring that, has anyone else heard of this project? TIA for any help, MS

20 years, 10 months

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FPGA VAX update

by swtpc6800＠comcast.net

I reverse engineered some Altera PLDs (EP600 and EP900) around 1990 and that took a few weeks. I knew some folks at NeoCad that reverse engineered the Xilinx family and made better design tools than Xilinx. They got no help at all from Xilinx. After competing with NeoCad for a few years Xilinx bought them in 1995 and used the NeoCad tools. The parts today are much larger than they were in 1995 and it took a large group to reverse engineer the parts then. Another problem is that Xilinx keeps developing new devices so you have a moving target. Xilinx has a free version (ISE WebPACK) that supports the smaller FPGAs on Windows and Red Hat Linux. The scope of the problem and the availability of free software is going to make it difficult to get enough people to tackle the problem. It happened before but they sold out for the big bucks. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley

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EMAS on 2966 (was Re: Xenix on the Acorn 32016)

by gtoal＠gtoal.com

Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Graham Toal wrote: > Now that's interesting. Having seen some of Acorn's internal source and > the way they often worked, it seemed there was a lot of "just go ahead > and do it" philosophy going on. Maybe someone mentioned 32000 Xenix in > passing and then some other programmer took it upon themselves to add > support in to the linker :) The only programmer was Mark Taunton (also Ex Edinburgh, hence why the linker was written in Imp, and also why the link format had a lot in common with that of EMAS!). I think he may still be working for ARM somewhere. I bet he'd remember. I had a listing of it because I was the only other Imp programmer there and I was helping find a storage bug that was causing link errors for some program of mine. (The listing has a few of my annotations). > Again, I'll check that I don't have it on disk when I get home in a month... It was written in Imp. I'm sure you'd remember if you'd seen it! > > The Edinburgh collection is getting quite impressive. We also have > > recovered locally written operating systems for the PDP9 and PDP15, > > two O/Ses for PDP11s, Perkin Elmer 32bit, 68000s and of course the > > big one, EMAS for ICL29XX > > That last one caught my eye, given that we have an ICL 2966 which we'd > like to (try to) get operational one day (no mean feat, given how > dismantled, rusty, and spread all to hell and back across lots of > storerooms it is at the moment!). > > Seems like there are "lots" (as in more than one :) of people/places who > know about the 1900 line, but the 29xx's seem to be largely forgotten. > Of course a complete 1900 would be nice, but I doubt there are any left > anywhere... Who is 'we' in this context? I can't imagine anyone just happening to have an ICL mainframe lying around, never mind the power to run it or the manpower to put it all back together again! (Hold on a sec... quick visit to Google... aha! so you're the curator at Bletchley Park! That explains a lot :-) Hadn't seen your Retrobeep site before! If I were still in the UK, I'd be happy to drop by with a shitload of Acorn hardware I grabbed before it headed for the dumpster) So yes, it would be fantastic to get EMAS on line again, and if your hardware works, it's definitely doable because the 2900 EMAS is the only one we actually have full binaries for! And the University has pretty complete archives on a CD jukebox where we could go fetch any binaries that we're missing. What's especially lucky is that we have a boot tape, which you're welcome to download and see how far it gets you: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas2/boottape/ We have several people on the history project who might be interested in a project like this; If you think you might be serious, I would encourage you to join our mailing list and tell folks what you're thinking of and ask for volunters. Some are retired; two unfortunately work in the US. I'll put together a list of the people who would be relevant to this and we can contact them individually if you decide to start up a project. I would lay odds that if you could get funding and it became obvious that it was a serious project, we could get help from Edinburgh University (EUCS which used to be called ERCC) and pull in a lot more folks than just the ones already in the History Group. We don't have binaries for either the ICL4/75 version or any of the later IBM mainframe (or NEC/Fujistsu/Hitachi clone) versions, so although emulators exist for the IBM (Hercules), there would have been a major bootstrapping problem in cross-compiling the sources to IBM binaries. And although we had ICL2900 binaries, we have no ICL2900 emulator. It never occurred to me that we might find 2900 hardware somewhere. This could be a major break for our project if you decide to run with it and the hardware can be made serviceable. Also a working system would be the perfect place to start from to write a 2900 emulator. The biggest obstacle that I can think of would be building a disk image with all the relevant files on it. We have them as individual files, not as a disk image. But we have *major* amounts of source code and even an Imp compiler, so we ought to be able to hack the disk drivers around and create a user-level program to build a disk image... Incidentally, I discovered an ICL engineer on the net today, who worked on the EMAS hardware: http://www.whiteheadm.co.uk/html/30_years_in_computing.html - I'll be dropping him an email this evening to tell him about the Edinburgh project. If you start up a 2900 project, he sounds like someone well worth speaking to. Let's talk more about this, either here or offline, or preferably on the Edinburgh group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ Regards, Graham PS Does Bletchley have any systems that can read DECtapes? We still have a few tapes in our project from the PDP9 and others which we've never read back in. Including one for an operating system called "DECsys" which I believe some of the guys on this list are desperate to see!

20 years, 10 months

1
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Character Generator ROM data

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Character Generator ROM data > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:03:04 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Drat I just threw out that data. Well not the ROM data but the manual >for a video display >that had the character set. Remember the roms used desenders so it was >more like 8x12?. I'm sure the VT100 series manuals are on line somewere. Other manuals that have that data was the Processor Tech VDM-1. Allison

20 years, 10 months

2
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Calling Mike Stein...

by dm561＠torfree.net

ISP's been down a few times; anyone else having trouble or waiting for a reply from me, pse try again. tnx, m ------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:14:09 -0500 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca Subject: Calling Mike Stein... Mike Stein, drop me a note, none of your email addresses work anymore :) Regards, Gord

20 years, 10 months

1
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Any own an 11/725...?

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 10/23/05, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > How hard would it be to get a Unibus working in a VAX-11/725? I > doubt I'll *ever* manage to get one, but if I did, I'd much rather > switch it to SCSI than have to deal with the RC25. Hard? Not hard at all - yank the KLESI-U and drop in a Unibus SCSI card. I happen to _have the RC25 on it, and as has come up before, I've personally never had a problem with them (I should most likely add 'yet'). Of course, I have plenty of smallish SCSI drives that would be perfect, but unless I could find a reasonable deal on a controller, I'll just stick with DEC stuff for now. -ethan

20 years, 10 months

1
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Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800

by CCTalk＠catcorner.org

> From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:40 PM > > This whole business reminds me of an old scifi short story > where a fellow > wakes up 100 years in the future and finds that car > speedometers go to 350 > mph--but start somewhere around 200 at a dead stop. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Wasn't it "The Marching Morons" by C. M. Kornbluth Kelly

20 years, 10 months

3
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Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:06:59 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Very akin to those cheap import "21 jewel" watches, where most of the >> jewels are simply glued on somewhere on the movement. It isn't a lie, but >> it's a bit of a whopper. > >I read somewhere that when the originator of jewels for bearings in >watches tried to apply for a patent (or some other legal protection) for >his idea, an old (then) watch was exhibited which had a jewel in the >middle of the balance cock in appearently just the right postion, and >thus the patent was not granted. > >Only later (?) was it 'discovered' that this jewel was purely for decoration. > >And weren't there '12 transistor' radios in the 1960's where half of the >transistors had all 3 leads connected to the ground rail (and therefore >they did nothing other than enable that statement to be printed on the case). There were a few that were base 6transistor with parallel devices in the ouput amp to boost the count (8 or 10 tr). I used to buy them to harvest the extra devices or everything as they were had very cheaply. Allison

20 years, 10 months

1
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Replacing Old LEDs

by fire＠dls.net

I believe that all these LEDs are on ISA or EISA cards, circa 1987. Let me be more specific now that I have gone to radio shack. In 5mm red LEDs they have 12volt, 2.6v, 1.8v Here are web pages: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-2 09 ? 5mm Red LED $1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack Catalog #: 276-209 ?????Model: 276-209 Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) (Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) Typical MCD is 1.5. Typical wavelength is 697mm. Size is T-1-3/4 or 5mm. Red lens color. Viewing angle is 36?. 10mA (max). Typical Voltage is 2.0, with a maximum voltage of 12.0V. Comes as package of 1. http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-0 41 5mm Red LED $1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack Catalog #: 276-041 ?????Model: 276-041 Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) (Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) Typical MCD is 10. Typical wavelength is 700mm. Size is T1 3/4 or 5mm. Red lens color. Viewing angle is 30?. Current is 28mA (max). Typical Voltage is 2.25, with a maximum voltage of 2.6V. Comes as package of 2. 276-330 which is 1.8v does not seem to have web page available. Should I just put in the 12v one? And turn around if I get it wrong? or use jumpers to test it before soldering? Bradley

20 years, 10 months

4
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Need help with a BA11-K power supply

by fireflyst＠earthlink.net

Alright, I thought I would crosspost this to see if anyone here has one of these modules. I don't even need to look at this, I remember that the relay does not kick on at all. I have a DEC jumper that runs across the two molex terminals on the back of this module that just plugs in. So, that being said, does anyone here have any of these modules? I know the other 3 modules of the power supply are common replacements, so I'm hoping someone saved a spare of these too ;) If you've got one you want to part with, let me know! Thanks Julian -----Original Message----- From: owner-info-pdp11 at village.org [mailto:owner-info-pdp11 at village.org] On Behalf Of Don North Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 2:20 PM To: info-pdp11 at village.org Subject: Re: Need help with a BA11-K power supply Julian Wolfe wrote: > Well, I decided to take another crack at getting my 11/34 system > working again. Currently I've still got some problems with it - > firstly though, the power supply. It blew when I hooked one of the > front panel switches up to it, though nothing seemed to be wrong as > far as what I could tell from all the diagrams. > > Right now the disassembled BA11-K box is sitting in my living room > taking up space. Now, when the PSU blew, I was able to notice that > the spark came from what LOOKED like the portion that the power cord > comes from.I looked at the traces under a magnifying glass, and > couldn't see anything wrong, and I can't smell anything. I checked all the fuses, those seem to be sound. > > In any case, when hooked up to nothing, the fans don't even kick on. On this box the fans are wired directly across the primary of the main power transformer, so unless the fans died (both of them) it would indicate that the main power relay circuit is not kicking in. The K box has a power input circuit breaker on the back that needs to be flipped to on (I'm sure you got this far) and then the power relay needs to be engaged as well. The 11/34 console switch can do this (wires run from the controller to the front panel switch) and it can also be done from the rear 3pin molex connectors as well. Short pins 1-3 to engage the power-on relay. This power circuit on module 54-13089 has it's own little power transformer and a bunch of diodes and capacitors. If shorting the pins on the molex (either one on the back will work, both are wired to the same place) does not turn the fans on, or you don't hear the clicking of the relay, then most likely the sparks that eminated from near the power cord entrance (which is this power module) were from this board, and it likely indicates blown circuitry (sparks are NEVER a good sign). Hope this helps. > Can anyone give me a test process I can go through to diagnose the > problem, or would anyone here be willing to look at the power supply > for me if I shipped it to them? > > As it is, I have this dead machine doing nothing and my girlfriend > keeps pestering me about it every time she comes over because it doesn't work. > > In any case, I'd appreciate any help that could be given to me! > > Thanks! > Julian > > ---------- > To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to > info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message > body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). ---------- To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes).

20 years, 10 months

2
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PC floppy cable twists...

by Watzman＠neo.rr.com

Re: > > ... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* > the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when > every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? > There are two stories on this one. Story 1 is that the original IBM power supply was only 63 watts, and didn't have enough power to run two drive motors at once. However, the "straight-through" interface only had one motor-control line, but several (3 or 4) drive select lines. By inserting the twist, one of the extra drive select lines became an independent motor on-off control line for the 2nd drive. Story 2 is that for service reasons, IBM did not want to have to deal with drive jumpering, they wanted every drive to be the same so that drives could be simply swapped with no fuss if one failed. I worked for Zenith [Data Systems] at the time, and Zenith [different division, but we had some contact after the IBM PC was introduced] made the original power supplies for IBM [as well as the power supply for my Z-100]. We were always told that story 1 was correct. Also, the logic behind story 2 doesn't address the fact that drive terminators still had to be configured. So I say it was because of the drive motor power requirements. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

20 years, 10 months

2
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Calling Mike Stein...

by gtulloch＠shaw.ca

Mike Stein, drop me a note, none of your email addresses work anymore :) Regards, Gord

20 years, 10 months

1
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DHV (was: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: DHV (was: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions) > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:47:02 +0200 (CEST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > >> >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >> > From: Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> >> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:55 -0400 >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> > Allison> Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not >> > Allison> an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS >> > Allison> or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. >> > >> >Not true. 9600 baud is 960 interrupts per second, on a character I/O >> >device. That's a big number for a PDP-11. Output will be >> >significantly less of a burden with a DH type output controller than >> >with other types -- even for just one active terminal. >> >> Depends somewhat on the OS. It dont know about you but most people >> can't type much faster than 100WPM (less than 10 chars sec). > >Um, that's irrelevant. A DH type controller also interrupt on each >character input. It's output that differs. And filling a full screen is >1920 characters, which at 9600 bps will take about 2 seconds. Do that on >one terminal will the system will definitely notice. If you have a serial >printer of some speed (such as an LN03) we're talking about a lot more >than about 2k of data sometimes. So even with a single user system, it can >make a big impact. And of course, if you have anything else running at the >same time, it will make it even worse. Multi-user systems definitely >suffer if you use DL11 controllers for users. It's more or less a no-no. Results differ. Actualy outputting a full screen to a vt100 at 9600 causes a fair number of input chars (Xon/Xoff buffer management) and printers (la100, LN01, LN03 all have buffers larger than 2k before they assert buffer controls (be they hardware or XON/XOFF). There is a distinct differnce in system performace due to those factors. >I'm not even sure you can drive one single line at 9600 bps at full speed >on a DL11, let alone 19200. LSI-11/PDP-11/03 that is tue due to processor speed. By the 11/23B 38.4 works! (I run a TU58 that way) >> For RT11 it's mostly unimportant. For unix (the most sensitive >> to interrupt loading you _may_ care as a single user). > >It matters for both, as I've pointed out above. In theory, in the practical world there are systems where idle cycles are a reality. You have to use all of those up first. >> > Allison> For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can >> > Allison> seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer >> > Allison> and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At >> > Allison> the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that >> > Allison> but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) >> > >> >Sure, if you're mostly doing editing, then the CPU burden of high >> >speed output may not be obvious. If you had an LN03 or similar >> >printer, you might see it more easily. An LA100, of course, isn't >> >much of a problem because it is quite slow. >> >> Actually printers are a bursty load (fill the buffer and go away) >> and I've found that in practice the faster you fill the buffer >> the better (high line rates or use a parallel interface). > >Yes, and that burst will drop a PDP-11 to it's knees if it's on a DL11 at >high speed. Sure, if you're running 2400 bps then you'll live. But not >many does these days. Note the bursty loads were felt worse (incresed delays) when the baud rate was medium (below 4800). Too much "barely thinking" inbetween interrupts waiting to fill the buffer on the printer. With the LPV11 (same problems as DL only very fast parallel byte transfer ( 20-40,000bytes/S) the driver would push data from its buffer till the printer yelled wait. So the time impact was actually lower. The same driver would push a DL the same way for a LA100 or LN03 as both had big buffers and would take it fast as you could send it (9600!) and then send back XOFF to stem the tide and the system would return from the printer driver. Larger print jobs had a differnt impact but as printer speed increased their buffer sizes helped to absorb that. Keep in mid this was an office system so print jobs were typically 1-4 pages (small). Printing has a different interrupt load then interactive terminals. Interactive terminals keystrokes are slow and screen fills are the real load. Define PDP-11. The family of CPUs and performance varies greatly. For example the 11/44 could not take a TU58 at 9600, (barely at 4800). Yet I run a BA11-VA with 11/23, M8059 ram, DLV11J and MRV11 with a tu58 as boot and mass storage under RT11XM. works fine at 38.4K baud. The only slowness there is waiting for the TU58 to read the directory then seek to the file. >> Performance was good enough that we used that over the VAX >> (line lengths limited us to 2400baud in our part of the mill). > >Yes, interrupt performance on the VAX was not pretty. One or two DZ11 >on a VAX-11/750 would kill it. Yes but the limiting factor there was not the VAX interfaces but the greater than 3000ft of wire between us and the VAX. ML3-6 to ML1-1 was a long walk! Ex mill rat here! However 750 performance was pretty tepid, the DMF32 was only ok. When we moved up to it a few complained it was slower than the 11/23B but easier to use. Later on the whole mess was solved with multisessioning on LAT and LAT servers. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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DHV (was: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > > From: Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> > > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:55 -0400 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Allison> Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not > > Allison> an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS > > Allison> or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. > > > >Not true. 9600 baud is 960 interrupts per second, on a character I/O > >device. That's a big number for a PDP-11. Output will be > >significantly less of a burden with a DH type output controller than > >with other types -- even for just one active terminal. > > Depends somewhat on the OS. It dont know about you but most people > can't type much faster than 100WPM (less than 10 chars sec). Um, that's irrelevant. A DH type controller also interrupt on each character input. It's output that differs. And filling a full screen is 1920 characters, which at 9600 bps will take about 2 seconds. Do that on one terminal will the system will definitely notice. If you have a serial printer of some speed (such as an LN03) we're talking about a lot more than about 2k of data sometimes. So even with a single user system, it can make a big impact. And of course, if you have anything else running at the same time, it will make it even worse. Multi-user systems definitely suffer if you use DL11 controllers for users. It's more or less a no-no. I'm not even sure you can drive one single line at 9600 bps at full speed on a DL11, let alone 19200. > For RT11 it's mostly unimportant. For unix (the most sensitive > to interrupt loading you _may_ care as a single user). It matters for both, as I've pointed out above. > > Allison> For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can > > Allison> seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer > > Allison> and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At > > Allison> the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that > > Allison> but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) > > > >Sure, if you're mostly doing editing, then the CPU burden of high > >speed output may not be obvious. If you had an LN03 or similar > >printer, you might see it more easily. An LA100, of course, isn't > >much of a problem because it is quite slow. > > Actually printers are a bursty load (fill the buffer and go away) > and I've found that in practice the faster you fill the buffer > the better (high line rates or use a parallel interface). Yes, and that burst will drop a PDP-11 to it's knees if it's on a DL11 at high speed. Sure, if you're running 2400 bps then you'll live. But not many does these days. > Performance was good enough that we used that over the VAX > (line lengths limited us to 2400baud in our part of the mill). Yes, interrupt performance on the VAX was not pretty. One or two DZ11 on a VAX-11/750 would kill it. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

1
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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > >Subject: Re: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) > > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> > > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:06:20 +0200 (CEST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you > >> don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. > > > >I'm not even sure they exist. Anyone have boot roms for RL? > > There must be as DEC sold 8As and RL02s as multi user WPS systems > (wps200 comes to mind). Good point! > No idea what the underlying OS for WPS was. There wasn't any. WPS is self contained. I have a RX01 floppy with WPS-8 somewhere... I've even booted it on one 8/A here. Works fine. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

1
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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote: > However, it won't be much for the original question on this thread, as > Multos don't support the RL8A either... I'll correct myself. Multos does support the RL8A, as I discovered when I checked the sources after I posted. However, they appear to only have used RL01s. So I don't know how it will behave with an RL02. (When I played with it last, I only used RK05). Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

1
0
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IRIS 2400/ SMPSU questions

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Turns out the second bit wasn't a varistor, but a disk cap (.1mfd/50v) I'm now trying to figure out what happened. It seems rational that the paper cap blew first, but from there I'm not sure. It seems a bit bizarre that two caps blew at the same time. The paper cap was wired between the primary of a transformer and a large power resistor that connected to (ground? the other side of the primary, anyway, and whatever that went to). The second problem area was from the secondary of the same transformer. 4 leads run to a stud rectifier bridge, and across each stud there is a .1mfd/50v disk cap dumping into a 3.3ohm 2-watt resistor connected to the other side of the rectifier. This resistor burnt up. The only options I could think of was that the demise of the primary cap set up a oscillation of sufficiently high frequency that the reactance of the .1mfd cap was sufficiently low that enough current went through to overload the resistor, or (2) 2 capacitors went on the fritz, and on the second one the shorting whiskers burnt away without blowing the cap because of the load resistor, which smoked instead, or (c) some bizarre transient appeared on that winding that blew the 50v dielectric and was blocked by the final output choke so that it didn't blow the final 7.5v electrolytic filter caps. And now for the question- I have new caps/resistor- should I look anywhere else for problems before I plug everything back together? None of my theories sound really convincing, and I don't want to blow anything else in this machine.

20 years, 10 months

1
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OT: Re: audio insanity

by mtapley＠swri.edu

At 12:00 -0500 10/21/05, Roger wrote: >What would $550 *actually get you*??? Perspiring minds wanna know! I assume it *very very cleanly* conducts the noise from your power outlet to your amplifier. Ya know the face I'd like to see? Take somebody that just bought one of those cables outside his house, point up at the power line coming to his house, then whip out an AM portable, scan down the spectrum, and let him know that *all of that* was hitting his socket, and being transmitted with extreme fidelity across his $550 power cable to his power supply. That's the face I'd like to see. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995

20 years, 10 months

7
7
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Character Generator ROM data

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Character Generator ROM data > From: cswiger <cswiger at widomaker.com> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:40:35 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >> > >> > From: Chuck Swiger <cswiger at widomaker.com> >> >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video >> >> Is simple. Find a pattern you like in row or colum scan and convert the >> bit pattern to a string of hex values and cook an Eprom/EEPROM. >> > >Ok - Just probing for any existing rom dump files that might be out >there w/o having to type a bunch of stuff in ;)) I've an opportunity >to put a message in an unusual place. > >--Chuck Dont have any on line myself. However I've done it by hand and it's not bad. Actually you can do a cleaner set without all the fluff or with needed chars. One thing, the Eprom or EEprom needs to be adaquately fast. Not a big problen with moderm parts but the old 2716 and 2732 were a tad slow. The search string was a first try thing. So you may start with that and tweek if for what you want. I'd be surprized if there isn't something out there. Allison

20 years, 10 months

1
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Character Generator ROM data

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Chuck, Did a quick Google on "character generator roms" and this was the third hit. http://www.atariarchives.org/cgp/Ch02_Sec04.php Hope it helps. Allison > >Subject: Character Generator ROM data > From: Chuck Swiger <cswiger at widomaker.com> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:47:44 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Gang - > > Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video >cards to >paint ascii characters on a display. > >For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) card uses >an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that >font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in >google w/o >anything usable turning up. > > >******* ***** * > * * * * > * * * * > * * ****** > * * * * > * * * * > * * * * > * * * * > * ***** * * > >--Chuck

20 years, 10 months

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Houston 595/695 Plotter manual

by dm561＠torfree.net

Anybody need/want a manual for one of these? mike

20 years, 10 months

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lost all my phone numbers :\

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

Today I hit the wrong recessed button (of two) on my pdaphone.... goodbye all phone numbers, email addresses, etc. My business contacts are easy to replace, but my classiccmp info isn't :\ Many of you here I had home phone numbers and/or cellphone numbers, etc. Not anymore. So, if you are sorry you ever gave me your number(s), just ignore this email. Otherwise, email me your contact info OFFLIST please. This isn't a solicitation for phone numbers I never had...just those here who I already had the info for. Thanks! Jay West

20 years, 10 months

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Message for Jay West

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

Hi Everyone, I've been trying to give Jay a link to my PDP11 board, but haven't heard back from him. When I spoke to him in person, he asked I resend him the link, and I have several times and haven't heard back so I figured my mail was getting filtered. Anyway, sorry to spam the list with this, but I couldn't think of any other way to get ahold of him. Jay, that address is http://pdpusers.dyndns.org - title is "PDP-11 User Community" (as I'll be working to get more than just a message board up on it soon) Sorry everyone. Thanks Jay! Julian

20 years, 10 months

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Fan for DEC H7861 power supply?

by dbetz＠xlisper.mv.com

I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861 power supply? Thanks, David

20 years, 10 months

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IBM 5110&In-Reply-To=

by RHILL＠bountifulutah.gov

I have an old 5110 and 5120 system, also. Did you find any interested buyers? Please let me know. Thanks so much. Ralph Hill

20 years, 10 months

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Fan Direction (was: Re: PC floppy cable twists...)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Fan Direction (was: Re: PC floppy cable twists...) > From: Mark Tapley <mtapley at swri.edu> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:24:57 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >At 6:09 -0500 10/21/05, Allison wrote: >>.... All of my systems >>cooling and air flow get attention even if it requires some card stock >>and tape duct work. Fans blow in and filters keep cat hair and >>other deutrius from getting in those places where it's going to do bad >>things. I find that tends to keep the inside of my PCs clean too. I >>turn the fan around and add a filter. Beats having a hairball clogging >>the cpu fan and crashing the system. > ><see my previous posting, somewhere back in the archives...> > Although this in general is a good idea, it doesn't always >work. NeXT cubes were designed with the fan exhausting air, so the >crapola sucked in through the optical drive slot wiped out the >optical drive before long. NeXT eventually approved the procedure to >mechanically turn the fan around (do *NOT* simply reverse the >connector). That would be a bad thing. > Problem is the designers actually did do _some_ thinking. On >its way out the fan in the original configuration, the air went over >the logic board(s) first, then the power supply and drives last. >Reverse the fan, it's now hot air hitting the logic board. On my >system, this caused the SCSI controller to fail occasionally. > Solution in my case was to put the fan back to its original >configuration, then tape over the floppy and optical cut-outs on the >front of the case. (N.B. my system may be unique in that the floppy >is mounted with a custom mount to an optical-sized cutout, with no >attempt to seal well. It may be that either taping or reversing the >fan would have solved the problem.) >-- Before I did it there was some thought applied and a few changes like an added fan in a differnt location. In the end I was both pressurizing the case and insuring adaquate airflow over the hardware. In the case of most PCs the airflow pattern is at best bad and its difficult to make even small improvements. But some of the S100 cases the airflow was poor to non existant. In those trying to get a laminar airflow or even air to flow between the boards in a crowded case was hard to achive. The worst is any of the altairs, one look and you see why. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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Weird BiPolar ROM programmer

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

I was out today and found an interesting looking box made by Aydin Controls. It looks like a BiPolar PROM programmer. It has two 8 pin ZIP sockets marked Read and two others marked Program along with several LED diplays (TIL 311s! :-) and a lot of switches and pushbuttons on it. It looks old so I decided to open it up and see what kind of microprocessor it had in it. However I couldn't find one! It has four AMD 2101 RAMs, twelve TIL 311 displays, a COM 2017 UART and a COM 5016 baud rate generator but everything else looks like standard 74xx TTL. I couldn't find anything that looked like ROM, PROM, EPROM or a CPU. Is it possible that this thing is all controlled by TTL logic? Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? FWIW most of the ICs are dated 1982 so I guess it that's when it was made. Joe

20 years, 10 months

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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM＠iee.org

QUOTE The 8/A cannot have an EAE UNQUOTE Don't think this is correct. Because, such a machine would have no serious (integer) arithmetic capability. Also, the PDP 8/A Minicomputer Handbook 1976/77 has a lengthy section [pp9-56 .. 9-65] on the KE8-E (Extended Arithmetic Element : EAE). However, the "PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options" (posted by Doug Jones) indicates that the EAE can be fitted iff the PDP-8/E CPU boardset is fitted. That is PDP-8/A models 600/620 were fitted with the KK8E CPU and optionally the 8/E EAE. And, I imagine "field specials" were doubtless built. Another wrinkle; correction invited. Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 21 October 2005 12:00 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) << snip >> Yes, as far as software is concerned, most everything written for an 8/I or 8/E will also run on an 8/A. << snip >> However, the 8/E and 8/A are *very* similar. In fact, some 8/A systems had the KK8E CPU in them. Things that are incompatible, as far as I can remember offhand right now: BSW instruction exists only on 8/E and 8/A. MQ register exists always on 8/E and 8/A, but only exists on 8/I if you have EAE. <<<<NB>>>> The 8/A cannot have an EAE. <<<<NB>>>> The EAE of the 8/E can run in two modes, where one is compatible with the EAE of the 8/I. If you execute a RAR RAL, you'll get different results depending on CPU. I don't remember exactly what the 8/I does, but the 8/E will load the AC with the PC for the high five bits, while the low seven will be fixed (can't remember the exact value). The 8/A will load the AC with the PC. << snip >>

20 years, 10 months

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Fan Direction (was: Re: PC floppy cable twists...)

by mtapley＠swri.edu

At 6:09 -0500 10/21/05, Allison wrote: >.... All of my systems >cooling and air flow get attention even if it requires some card stock >and tape duct work. Fans blow in and filters keep cat hair and >other deutrius from getting in those places where it's going to do bad >things. I find that tends to keep the inside of my PCs clean too. I >turn the fan around and add a filter. Beats having a hairball clogging >the cpu fan and crashing the system. <see my previous posting, somewhere back in the archives...> Although this in general is a good idea, it doesn't always work. NeXT cubes were designed with the fan exhausting air, so the crapola sucked in through the optical drive slot wiped out the optical drive before long. NeXT eventually approved the procedure to mechanically turn the fan around (do *NOT* simply reverse the connector). Problem is the designers actually did do _some_ thinking. On its way out the fan in the original configuration, the air went over the logic board(s) first, then the power supply and drives last. Reverse the fan, it's now hot air hitting the logic board. On my system, this caused the SCSI controller to fail occasionally. Solution in my case was to put the fan back to its original configuration, then tape over the floppy and optical cut-outs on the front of the case. (N.B. my system may be unique in that the floppy is mounted with a custom mount to an optical-sized cutout, with no attempt to seal well. It may be that either taping or reversing the fan would have solved the problem.) -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995

20 years, 10 months

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Software for one Osborne Vixen

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

At 21:38 20/10/2005 +0200, you wrote: >Hello. I've received some time ago one Osborne Vixen. It's in working state. >I should like to obtain software for it, or even try with software for >previous versions of the Osborne portable family of computers. Are there >available in some place in the Internet disk images for it, or could someone >how own them send me a copy, please ? Off list to discuss the details, >please. Thanks. I have the Vixen system disks up on my site. Look in "Disks/Software images" near the end of the main page. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

20 years, 10 months

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Replacing Old LEDs (Bradley Slavik)

by dwight＠ca2h0430.amd.com

>From: "Barry Watzman" <Watzman at neo.rr.com> > >Excluding odd LEDs (like your 12 volt model which, again, is probably a >low-voltage LED with the resistor built-in probably for automotive use), any >LED will work, although different ones will vary in brightness and power >consumption (if power consumption matters .... usually it does not). If you >get it backwards, it won't light, but no harm will be done. > Hi Barry This is not really true. If driven from a 5 volt source, you are right, no damage. I once had to replace a number of LEDs that failed because of being reversed for part of the time. These were a simple connection to a 12vac line with a current limit resistor. They would light OK at first but degrade over about a week. I placed a diode across the LED to bypass the back voltage and there were no more failures. They tend to zener at around 10 volts someplace and are not happy being zeners. The power dissipated was small but there was some other effect of them acting a zeners that degraded them. Dwight

20 years, 10 months

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Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

At 06:51 AM 10/21/05 -0600, you wrote: >Take a look at item #8707485844 >http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8707485844&rd=1&sspagenam e=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 >which ended on Thursday. It went for USD $7,877.11 Isn't that amazing? JC Wren had one with a load of other classic computers and the high bid was only about $2100! for a supposedly serial number 3 unit, run up by bidders from Switzerland, the US and finally the UK. It had been heavily modified internally, with even a hard disk inside. >My question to all is that was the unit more valuable (because of the low serial number) than a later unit that had all of the original MITS cards, motherboard and powersupply? My experience with car collectors (Corvettes), is that a unit in stock factory condition is more valuable than one that has been heavily modified. IMO ALL of the Altairs have been modified since they were sold only as kits. Yes you COULD buy assembled one but MITs still took a kit and just assembled it for you. To my knowledge none of them were build on an assembly line. Even MITs changed parts and revised the boards frequently so even the basic kits weren't all the same. On top of that, the user had to buy or build their own memory and I/O cards and the like (everything except the CPU card and chassis) so it's virtually certain that no two Altairs were identical even when they were new. And some mods such as a bus terminator were mandatory in order to make them work. Then considering that these were leading edge technology at the time and that they were constantly being hacked on and upgraded by their owners I would expect all of the surviving ones to be very different. I expect that 3rd party cards vs original MITs cards would detract from their value but not to the extend that 3rd party mods would to a collector's car. I suppose a better comparision would be a 1930s Duesenburg or some other car that were ALL build to order and no two were the same. Joe ('70 Hemi SuperBird, '70 440 6-pak Dodge Challanger RT Convertible, '70 Plymouth Baracuda, '68 Dodge Charger ....) >I suppose the buyer is going to restore the original MITS cards as it was first available, or is he going to keep it intact as it was sold to him? It would be interesting (to me) to know peoples collecting philosophies about that. > > >Gary Fisher >Tristone Capital Inc. >This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. > > > >

20 years, 10 months

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Language for the ages

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Language for the ages > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:41:26 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 2:51 PM der Mouse wrote: > >>>>>> PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack >>>>>> MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 >>> Hmmm ... registers are numbered, and it's SRC,DEST format ... I'd >>> guess ne of the later PDPs like a PDP-10 or PDP-11. >> >>Not the 11; I know that, and the opcode names and syntax are all wrong. >>(On the 11, that'd be "mov r2,-(sp)" and "mov #10,r1" (DEC syntax) or >>"mov r2,*-sp" and "mov $10,r1" (Unix syntax, if I've remembered it >>right).) > >No prize yet. Hint: it's a microprocessor, not a mini (it's not the >IM6100 or LSI 11). > I'd either punt for 68k or 32000. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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Replacing Old LEDs (Bradley Slavik)

by Watzman＠neo.rr.com

LEDs are very generic components. All of the ones that you are talking about are almost totally interchangeable, except for the 12 volt one (which is probably a low voltage one with a built-in resistor .... no LED truly operates off 12 volts). An LED is still a diode. In the wrong direction, it doesn't conduct, and it also doesn't give off any light, but no harm is done. In the "forward" direction, usually run from a 5 volt supply, it would burn out (basically it would be a short-circuit) except that it will invariably have a current limiting resistor in series with it. Since the actual voltage across the LED is .7 to about 3 volts or so, depending on the LED, and the supply voltage is almost invariably 5 volts, the current limiting resistor determines the current drawn and the power consumed (and, as a consequence, how bright the LED is). Some LEDs are significantly more efficient (give off more light per milliwatt used) than others, the specs will tell you that, but again, in most applications you don't care about the power consumption (milliwatts), and the brightness is subjective. Excluding odd LEDs (like your 12 volt model which, again, is probably a low-voltage LED with the resistor built-in probably for automotive use), any LED will work, although different ones will vary in brightness and power consumption (if power consumption matters .... usually it does not). If you get it backwards, it won't light, but no harm will be done.

20 years, 10 months

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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > On 10/21/05, charlesmorris at direcway.com <charlesmorris at direcway.com> wrote: > > Currently I don't have any other input device aside from the programmer's panel > > and the keyboard, so naturally I need something that can be booted from an > > RL02... > > You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you > don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. I'm not even sure they exist. Anyone have boot roms for RL? > > Could I run OS/8? TSS/8? Many years ago I used to have access to a TTY timeshared to an 8/E running Edusystem 50 (TSS/8) and would like that "feel" again... > > Dunno about TSS/8 on an RL (probably no driver for anything newer than > an RF08), but certainly OS/8. One caveat - there is a different > driver for the RL01 and for the RL02. I myself have never used an > RL02 on an 8/a. An expensive configuration for a DECmate I was an > RL02, so I'm sure OS/78 supports it, but you might have to cherry-pick > your OS/8 version to go with a larger disk. Actually, any version of OS/8 will work fine. What you need is the device driver. And yes, there are two different drivers, depending on RL01 or RL02. Um, actually there are four different device drivers, since each exists both for use as the system device, and not. I'm using an RL02 with my PDP8, and have for ages. A few things might need patches as well as having the device driver. RESORC and PIP comes to mind. They have tables of device sizes, which might not have the RL02 in there... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

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480z floppy lead

by williams.dan＠gmail.com

I checked back in the archives and could only find discussions, does anyone know the pin-outs of the external floppy drive. Dan

20 years, 10 months

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Xenix on the Acorn 32016

by gtoal＠gtoal.com

An update to the comments of last week: I retrieved my source listing of the linker for Panos last night, and buried in the middle of it was a commented-out section for handling object files from Xenix-32000. So I guess at some point Acorn was indeed looking at Xenix for that platform. I do sort of have a vague recollection of some involvement with Logica. I suspect this was one of those one-man projects where the only Acorn person involved was the manager. Maybe Dave Lamkin, or his boss whose name escapes me for now. (Mike someone?) By the way the Panos linker is 3/4in thick fanfold and quite a bit to scan. I guess I'll do it sometime but it's not a priority; I've been having much more fun recently scanning Edinburgh University documents detailing the operation of both the PDP9/15 systems, and the Interdata 74's. In recent weeks I've scanned the sources of an operating system for the Interdatas ("Legos") and a BIOS for an ICL 7502 remote job entry terminal which Edinburgh University managed to turn into a serviceable computer. Also the documentation for the High Level Assembler used on both these systems. (We already had the source of the assemblers, just no docs or predef files.) The Edinburgh collection is getting quite impressive. We also have recovered locally written operating systems for the PDP9 and PDP15, two O/Ses for PDP11s, Perkin Elmer 32bit, 68000s and of course the big one, EMAS for ICL29XX and IBM mainframe architectures of various flavours. ( http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/ ) Graham

20 years, 10 months

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Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay

by GFisher＠tristonecapital.com

Steve Wrote: >Message: 12 >Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:53:28 -0700 (PDT) >From: steve <gkicomputers at yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Message-ID: <20051021145329.54055.qmail at web51610.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >I find interesting the big dollars that IBM manuals >are going for (>$900) > >http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=suetbandit&sor… I wonder who dkdkk is? He bought almost all of the IBM stuff (modules and manuals) and plunked down over 16,800 US$. He must be re-selling to the government <grin> Gary Fisher Tristone Capital Inc. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer.

20 years, 10 months

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Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay

by GFisher＠tristonecapital.com

Hans, You make excellent points! I'd do the same thing as I'd be very interested in seeing what was on that hard drive and actually running the machine in it's final re-incarnation. But maybe I would put the new cards in an later serial number box for operating (like a nice Star Trek game or Supercalc) and put other original cards, PS, and motherboard in the serial number 3 case. But I only have one already later model modded 8800 and didn't have nine grand Canadian either! (Now if it was an IMSAI, that would be another story....except for the nine grand!) <grin> ---- EDITED ORIGINAL MESSAGE BELOW----- >From: "Hans Franke" <Hans.Franke at siemens.com> >Subject: Re: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Message-ID: <43591700.32111.10A59295 at localhost> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >Now, regarding your implication, yes, a nice like new car has it's value, >but then again, a special sub serie might even catch a higher price when >not shiny, and then there are modifications. Thing of a Shelby GT with >added race trim. that would definitly catch a better price than a regular >(already expensive) Shelby GT. > >Now, the above Altair could be compared again to a hot-rodded Model T. >Lager engine (Z80) added high performace stuff (Hard Disk) and so on. >Such a Car has a value in itself, and restoreing it to a factory like >version should be considered vandalism. > >> I suppose the buyer is going to restore the original MITS cards as it was >> first available, or is he going to keep it intact as it was sold to him? >> It would be interesting (to me) to know peoples collecting philosophies >> about that. > >Well, tough question. As for myself, I guess I would keep it the way >it is right now. THe usage, the add ons _and_ the fact that it's ser#3 >add together for a very unique exhibition piece. 'Restoring' it would >take away the life and history. > >Don't get me wrong, this isn't a 'do not touch' thing, unlike some >weired car collectors, who buy cars and let them rust on purpose, I >would go ahead and restore (if needed) the Altair to its last working >condition. Make it show room able, but don't take away it's history. > >If the original cards where available with the unit, I wouldn't put >them back in, but rather use as part of a proposed displa, maybe >mounted on a wall behind the unit. > >Gruss >H. >-- >VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen >http://www.vcfe.org/ Gary Fisher Tristone Capital Inc. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer.

20 years, 10 months

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Replacing Old LEDs

by dwight＠ca2h0430.amd.com

Hi You shouldn't plug a LED into a curcuit backwards that can supply more than about 8 volts someplace. LED's zener at about 8 to 10 volts and the power dissipated is much higher when it zeners, even with a limiting resistor. If you get the RS ones that are individually wrapped, they usually have the polarity marked on the back of the package. You should be able to check the polarity with a meter by measuring the voltage from the unit. Just match the polarities. Dwight >From: "Bradley Slavik" <fire at dls.net> > >I believe that all these LEDs are on ISA or EISA cards, circa 1987. > >Let me be more specific now that I have gone to radio shack. > >In 5mm red LEDs they have > >12volt, 2.6v, 1.8v > >Here are web pages: > >http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-2 >09 >? > >5mm Red LED >$1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack >Catalog #: 276-209 ?????Model: 276-209 > > >Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability >Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) >(Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) >Typical MCD is 1.5. Typical wavelength is 697mm. Size is T-1-3/4 or 5mm. Red >lens color. Viewing angle is 36?. 10mA (max). Typical Voltage is 2.0, with a >maximum voltage of 12.0V. Comes as package of 1. > >http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-0 >41 > >5mm Red LED >$1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack >Catalog #: 276-041 ?????Model: 276-041 > > >Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability >Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) >(Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) >Typical MCD is 10. Typical wavelength is 700mm. Size is T1 3/4 or 5mm. Red >lens color. Viewing angle is 30?. Current is 28mA (max). Typical Voltage is >2.25, with a maximum voltage of 2.6V. Comes as package of 2. > >276-330 which is 1.8v does not seem to have web page available. > >Should I just put in the 12v one? And turn around if I get it wrong? or >use jumpers to test it before soldering? > >Bradley > > >

20 years, 10 months

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RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > From: Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:55 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Allison> Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not > Allison> an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS > Allison> or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. > >Not true. 9600 baud is 960 interrupts per second, on a character I/O >device. That's a big number for a PDP-11. Output will be >significantly less of a burden with a DH type output controller than >with other types -- even for just one active terminal. Depends somewhat on the OS. It dont know about you but most people can't type much faster than 100WPM (less than 10 chars sec). For RT11 it's mostly unimportant. For unix (the most sensitive to interrupt loading you _may_ care as a single user). > Allison> For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can > Allison> seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer > Allison> and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At > Allison> the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that > Allison> but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) > >Sure, if you're mostly doing editing, then the CPU burden of high >speed output may not be obvious. If you had an LN03 or similar >printer, you might see it more easily. An LA100, of course, isn't >much of a problem because it is quite slow. Actually printers are a bursty load (fill the buffer and go away) and I've found that in practice the faster you fill the buffer the better (high line rates or use a parallel interface). Actually try this config. 11/23B 256kW ram RL02 RX02 x2 DLV11j terminal lines at 9600 DUV11 running DDCMP (DECnet phaseIII at 19.2k) LPV11 (modifiedto match dataproducts interface) with LN01/LN01S 12ppm printer. Later the LN01S was replaced with a DLV11 (same address) and LN03. RSTS (later RSX) 3 users Typical task load was BASIC (modeling program for reliability), calc, Text editing (word-11) and edit and a cardfile database written in BASIC. Also we had preLAT software for the 11 to take local printing from the VAX. Performance was good enough that we used that over the VAX (line lengths limited us to 2400baud in our part of the mill). That saved the VAX for email via the DUV link or direct. Later the DLV11j was replaced with a DHV and there was no noticeable performace improvement. It was a strange config but it helped us develop, sometimes test and support the up and comming printing products. We later moved to a VAX750 and found it not much faster as a user perception. One of the strong points of the -11 is it's interrupt performance compared to a lot of other machines. Not to say there wasn't a point where the loading wasn't noticable just took a bit to get there. The users noticed the modeling program the most as it was heavy on the calculations, more ram and an 11/73 would have helped. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:06:20 +0200 (CEST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 10/21/05, charlesmorris at direcway.com <charlesmorris at direcway.com> wrote: >> > Currently I don't have any other input device aside from the programmer's panel >> > and the keyboard, so naturally I need something that can be booted from an >> > RL02... >> >> You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you >> don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. > >I'm not even sure they exist. Anyone have boot roms for RL? There must be as DEC sold 8As and RL02s as multi user WPS systems (wps200 comes to mind). No idea what the underlying OS for WPS was. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:26:02 -0400 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > >Thanks for your reply. I guess I'm okay with power even if I leave in > >the DHV11 as it seems my BA11-N has been upgraded to a H7861 power > > Unless you need the IO I'd pull it anyway. The system will run cooler > and I doubt you have need for the lines. DHV11 is a MUX and you need > the chassis kit to break out all the serial lines. Most OSs for PDP11 > don't use it (system build time option) and the DLV11J is easier to use > and program. The DHV11 cannot be used for a console either. I think I'll slightly disagree with you here. While all you say is essentially true, the DLV11 is a tremendour burden on the system compared to the DHV11. So if you actually want to run serial connections to a machine, keep the DHV11, and don't use the console more than absolutely neccesary. Big difference between DMA and interrupts you know... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, djg at pdp8.net wrote: > For multi user operating systems the only one that will run on your > hardware is Multos-8. The version that has been recovered doesn't seem > to operate well though. Huh? As I believe all copies of Multos actually comes from a distrubution I have, this is news to me. Multos works just fine on my PDP8 atleast. However, it won't be much for the original question on this thread, as Multos don't support the RL8A either... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 10 months

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OT: Language for the ages

by cclist＠sydex.com

Here's an interesting problem. Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of a particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an option. You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing obsolesence, nor one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the question, as longevity could be a problem. So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. Cheers, Chuck

20 years, 10 months

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Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 > From: "Michael Holley" <swtpc6800 at comcast.net> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:18:38 -0700 > To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >With all of this ragging on audio nut who spend obscene amounts of money on >wire, I decided to at a look. I don't know why we call them crazy, they >don't have 1975 computer running in the basement. > >The guy in the next office is in to high end audio. (Although he claims that >he is in the lower end of the people in his audio club.) I asked if he had >a power cord so I could take some pictures. He had a spare PS Audio xStream >Statement Power Cable, the 2 meter version lists for $550. This is 6 gauge >oxygen free copper with machined connectors. The cord has a ferrite >impregnated jacket. > >Here is my short review of the power cord >http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_F/PS_Audio.htm If the sound doesnt improve is there a fee to decontaminate the plug of the outlet cruft? ;) >I took it home and hooked it up to my new custom case computer which also >cost me about $550. It is a modern 3 GHz Pentium that looks like a 1975 >SWTPC 6800. >http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_F/MP_F.htm#NewCover Nice case. I need to work out a way to get the picture of my Altair-11 up. Whats an Altair-11 it's a old Altair 8800 case with a PDP-11/23 inside H780 PS, H9281AC 12 slot backplane and a RD52. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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Fan for DEC H7861 power supply?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:38:02 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from >console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is >dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861 >power supply? > >Thanks, >David Memory test is; they are Rotron or equivelent 120V AC fans. Measure one and look it up on the net. FYI they push a fair amount of air. so any 120V fan that uses the same ac current and fits is likely a good match. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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PC floppy cable twists...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:54:49 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 8:41 PM Allison wrote: > >>Under those conditions I don't worry about my media unless its old >>and unknown. > >That's nice if you can make it happen, but I recall that our first >commercial installation of a 5.25"-equipped system was in a parking >garage... > >Cheers, >Chuck Well thats the challenge as an engineer. Good, Fast, Cheap, pick any two. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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Weird BiPolar ROM programmer

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Weird BiPolar ROM programmer > From: "Joe R." <rigdonj at cfl.rr.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:48:10 +0000 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I was out today and found an interesting looking box made by Aydin >Controls. It looks like a BiPolar PROM programmer. It has two 8 pin ZIP >sockets marked Read and two others marked Program along with several LED >diplays (TIL 311s! :-) and a lot of switches and pushbuttons on it. It >looks old so I decided to open it up and see what kind of microprocessor it >had in it. However I couldn't find one! It has four AMD 2101 RAMs, twelve >TIL 311 displays, a COM 2017 UART and a COM 5016 baud rate generator but >everything else looks like standard 74xx TTL. I couldn't find anything that >looked like ROM, PROM, EPROM or a CPU. Is it possible that this thing is >all controlled by TTL logic? Has anyone ever seen anything like this >before? FWIW most of the ICs are dated 1982 so I guess it that's when it >was made. > > Joe I used to blast bipolar proms using switches and some ttl so yes it could be a simple sequential logic thing. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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PDP-8/A Front Panels

by v.slyngstad＠verizon.net

Charles Morris and I have been working to create an equivalent for the KC8A programmer's panel for the PDP-8/A. This panel uses modern parts where necessary, but follows the DEC design quite closely. The buttons and LED displays are larger, and it is designed to mount flush with the front of the PDP-8/A, where the original mounted to a beveled aluminum casting. Like the originals, there are two long, thin PCBs, held together with spacers, and affixed to a metal panel that attaches to the rack/8A. Charles has recently finished an awesome job of debugging the prototype (thanks, Charles!). (My job has been to drive the CAD tools and get the prototypes ordered and such.) Now he has the panel he needed to check out his 8/A :-). Now that we have (revised) CAD drawings and such for the front panel assembly, we are thinking about ordering boards for a "group buy", and want to see how much interest there is in these items. Unfortunately, the front panels are not inexpensive. It will cost us about $200 to place a PCB order(1), plus about $20 for each pair of boards (including the first one) ordered. Parts for each board pair run about $50. The metal panel is about $85 from Front Panel Express (which allows the panel to be mounted and look nice). In addition, there are costs associated with the prototype that we'd like people to help with, that are around $200. As you can see, the price is quite daunting for a single front panel: $220/1+$50+$85+200/3 = $422. Hence the attractiveness of a group buy. If we can order 5, then the cost each will be $220/5+$50+$85+$200/5 = $208. If we can order 10, then the cost each will be $220/10+$50+$85+$200/12 = $174. (That's under $100, if someone can make the metal panels :-).) I know there are many who don't have programmer's panels for their 8/A. So, are any of you willing to put up that kind of money to get one? Send me a mail with "I'd want one if the price gets to $xxx or less."(2). Thanks! Vince (1) We can't use an inexpensive prototype shop due to the boards' size: 15.5"x3.7". (2) I put up a lame page at http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/kc8a.html with some pictures of my prototype (not Charles' debugged one).

20 years, 10 months

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PC floppy cable twists...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:05:50 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 7:42 PM Allison wrote: > >>Media wear, I've had disks spinning for years in clean environments and >>several dead drives that were still fine. > >Dirt happens. It gets between the head and the media and doesn't do any >favors to either. I've got several diskettes in my collection that have >the oxide coating worn clear through on the directory track. Better to >either stop the motor or lift the head. Around here, during the driest >months of the year (August and Sepember), the clay soils turn to a very >fine powder and become airborne. Hoiuse dust during those months tends to >have a brownish color. > >Add to this that most PC's have fans on the power supply that are set to >exhaust air from the box, which means that the drive slot is a convenient >entry point for contamination. It used to be that fans were set blow the >other way and filters were used. That is a PCism. That being those fans that suck unfilterd crud and cruft into the system. In the summer we do get brown dust from whatever. All of my systems cooling and air flow get attention even if it requires some card stock and tape duct work. Fans blow in and filters keep cat hair and other deutrius from getting in those places where it's going to do bad things. I find that tends to keep the inside of my PCs clean too. I turn the fan around and add a filter. Beats having a hairball clogging the cpu fan and crashing the system. Under those conditions I don't worry about my media unless its old and unknown. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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PC floppy cable twists...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:02:43 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 6:23 PM Allison wrote: > > > >I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. If you don't have a >head load signal, the head remains in contact with the media the entire >time the media's in the drive. If the spindle is rotating, that leads to >head and media wear the entire time (althought he drive needs to spin a bit >to seat the media correctly when first inserted). If the motor's turned >off, no media wear, even though the head's still in contact. Nope not talking about media wear at all. I'm talking about the SA400/TM100 generation drives that used a brush type motor with belt drive that have a far shorter life than most of the halfheights that use a brushless direct drive pancake motor. The media wear is less an issue than the other problem with double sided drives. Clapping, those with head load solinoids (SA450 comes to mind) the head load/unload would not be gentle on the media. Thats why most later drives continiously load the head even when not spinning. >And yes, motors with brushes will fail with time. When I wrote my first >8085 diskette driver, I just turned the drive motors on at boot, having >come off an 8" floppy environment. I was admonished by a Micropolis >engineer that this was not a good idea and that the motor should be turned >on only when needed. So media was inserted into drives with the spindle at >a dead stop, leading to serious problems with seating the media. So drives >were modified to include a little spin-up when the drive door was being >closed. Not everyone did this gracefully, however, leading to wrinkled >areas around the media hub and so reinforcing rings were introduced. Actually testing showed that freqquent start/stops were harder on the motor to a certain point. It was the high current that would eventually wear the commutator. If you ran the motors the problem was they were not ball bearing and the bushing would wear and the brushes as well. >The interesting thing is the chicken-and-egg nature of this. Initially, >you didn't want to spin the media all of the time on a 5.25" drive because >the brushes in the DC motor would wear. So a motor control line was >incorporated. But then, if you could stop the media from spinning, you >didn't have to have a separate head-load mechanism to guard the meda and >the head against wear while not in use. there was a balancing act. Wearout for mechanical reasons and surge startup. The trick was keeping the drive running once accessed as it was likely you'd be back soon, if not time out. That lowered the start stop cycle wear and got you closes to the mechanical wearout limit. The later drives with direct drive motors and the like eliminated those concerns. Then powering down was power/heat savings. Media wear, I've had disks spinning for years in clean environments and several dead drives that were still fine. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:02:24 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Mine is a KDJ11-A processor, RL01, RX50, RX02, MXV11-AC boot, 1.5mb >memory. I'm planning on running RT-11 and maybe Unix. I'd like to add >an RDxx drive. It looks like I'll have to find a different bootstrap >board to boot off of an RDxx though. Thats a strange config. Workable but strange. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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PC floppy cable twists...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:53:41 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 4:14 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >>With all of those pins on the interface, why wouldn't the motors be >>independently controlled? That seems like a waste on any system, never >>mind the wear and tear on the drives & inserted floppies. > >But there really aren't any unused pins. Remember that all of the >odd-numbered pins are grounded, so that leaves only 16 for signals. Pin 2 >was originally reserved for "reduced write current" signalling (or "density >select'). Pin 4 was for "Head load" and was a spare only on some drives >that didn't have that feature and pin 34 was used for disk change/ready. >There really aren't any spares. > >Besides, with a "head load" facility, who needed to control the motors >individually? But the PC didn't use a drive with a head load facility... > >Cheers, >Chuck Once upon a time drive need time to spin up before you loaded the head and read it. As drives improved that time shortend and the motors went to brushless where relibility didn't degrade with stops and starts (brush motors this is a relability/wear issue). So having seperate motor enables allowed one to spin the drives and then allow a 10sec (or longer) timeout after last access before they would stop. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:26:02 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Thanks for your reply. I guess I'm okay with power even if I leave in >the DHV11 as it seems my BA11-N has been upgraded to a H7861 power Unless you need the IO I'd pull it anyway. The system will run cooler and I doubt you have need for the lines. DHV11 is a MUX and you need the chassis kit to break out all the serial lines. Most OSs for PDP11 don't use it (system build time option) and the DLV11J is easier to use and program. The DHV11 cannot be used for a console either. >supply already. I'll consider getting an RQDX3 instead of the RQDX1. >Do you know if it uses the same cables to connect it with its drives? All the RQDXn controlers use the same cables. You will need the RQDX breakout board (either out of the BA23 or M9058 out of the BA123) to take the 50pin wide RQDXn to drive cables. >Actually, the only cable I have is to connect the RQDX1 to an RX50 >floppy drive. I'll need a cable to connect it to a hard drive at some >point. It seems that the RQDX3 cards are easier to come by than the >cables. I've seen many cards on eBay but never any cables. The cables are nothing special. Your missing the intermediate board that gors from the 50pin RQDXn to the 43pin that RX50 or RX33 uses and the 34/26pin comblo that common MFM hard disks used. Sounds like you have something like my 11/73. Mine is 4mb ram, RL02, RX33, (2)RD52 and RX02, serial is DLV11j. I run unix V6, Rt11XM and XXDP. Allison >On Oct 20, 2005, at 6:19 PM, Allison wrote: > >>> >>> Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >>> From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> >>> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:28:56 -0400 >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>> >>> Does anyone have a spare RL01 drive select plug for drive "0"? I >>> recently acquired an RL01 drive (thanks Lyle Bickly and Jon Miles!) >>> but it's missing its drive select plug. This is one of the four >>> lights on the front of the drive that has the number "0" printed on >>> it for drive 0. Does anyone have one they're willing to part with? >>> >>> Also, the PDP-11/73 that I acquired is in a BA11-NC box. Does anyone >>> know how much power the power supply in this box can supply? There is >>> a list of the cards in the box and the power each one consumes and >>> I've inserted an additional card (an RQDX1 controller) that draws >>> 6.4A at 5V and I'm not sure that the power supply can handle it. That >>> would bring the total to 26.9A at 5V where the original total was >>> 22.3A. I could remove a DHV11 card that draws 4.3A to bring the total >>> down to 22.6A if necessary. What is save with this power supply? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> David >>> >> >> BA-11N +5 at 22A +12 at 11A max assumes H9273 mackplane and H786 PS >> >> I have a system that I subbed in a H7861 to the BA11N that PS is >> same size >> and form factor but +5 at 36A and +12 at 5A (typically found in BA11S). >> As most >> newer boards had a greater need for +5 than +12. >> >> If you don't need the serial lines then pull the DHV11. I've found >> running the supply right at the limit was not the best for >> reliability. >> >> Also the RQDX1 was not a very good version unless it was upgraded to >> RQDX2. the reason is it didn't support RX33, and the largest disk >> if memory serves for RQDX1 was RD52 (30mb quantum D540). RQDX2 >> supported >> the RD53(70mb) and RD54 (150mb). The RQDX3 supported more drives and >> is a bit lighter in current draw (RD31 and 32 plus RX33). >> >> ALSO the RQDX1 MUST BE LAST ON THE BUS. Many of the RQDX1 controllers >> lacked GRANT pass down. >> >> >> Allison >>

20 years, 10 months

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RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:28:56 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Does anyone have a spare RL01 drive select plug for drive "0"? I >recently acquired an RL01 drive (thanks Lyle Bickly and Jon Miles!) >but it's missing its drive select plug. This is one of the four >lights on the front of the drive that has the number "0" printed on >it for drive 0. Does anyone have one they're willing to part with? > >Also, the PDP-11/73 that I acquired is in a BA11-NC box. Does anyone >know how much power the power supply in this box can supply? There is >a list of the cards in the box and the power each one consumes and >I've inserted an additional card (an RQDX1 controller) that draws >6.4A at 5V and I'm not sure that the power supply can handle it. That >would bring the total to 26.9A at 5V where the original total was >22.3A. I could remove a DHV11 card that draws 4.3A to bring the total >down to 22.6A if necessary. What is save with this power supply? > >Thanks, >David BA-11N +5 at 22A +12 at 11A max assumes H9273 mackplane and H786 PS I have a system that I subbed in a H7861 to the BA11N that PS is same size and form factor but +5 at 36A and +12 at 5A (typically found in BA11S). As most newer boards had a greater need for +5 than +12. If you don't need the serial lines then pull the DHV11. I've found running the supply right at the limit was not the best for reliability. Also the RQDX1 was not a very good version unless it was upgraded to RQDX2. the reason is it didn't support RX33, and the largest disk if memory serves for RQDX1 was RD52 (30mb quantum D540). RQDX2 supported the RD53(70mb) and RD54 (150mb). The RQDX3 supported more drives and is a bit lighter in current draw (RD31 and 32 plus RX33). ALSO the RQDX1 MUST BE LAST ON THE BUS. Many of the RQDX1 controllers lacked GRANT pass down. Allison

20 years, 10 months

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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by djg＠pdp8.net

> Now that I have an apparently functioning PDP-8/A with 16K of core, and > (hopefully soon) a working RL02, I am wondering what operating system > would be appropriate. Currently I don't have any other input device aside > from the programmer's panel and the keyboard, so naturally I need something > that can be booted from an RL02... > > Any recommendations? Will software written for, say, an 8/E or 8/I run on > an 8/A without patching? > >Could I run OS/8? TSS/8? Many years ago I used to have access to a TTY >timeshare d to an 8/E running Edusystem 50 (TSS/8) and would like >that "feel" again... The 8/A was compatible with the earlier machines so software should work unless they were requiring an option which isn't on the 8/A. OS/8 is your best bet. TSS/8 won't work with an RL drive. For multi user operating systems the only one that will run on your hardware is Multos-8. The version that has been recovered doesn't seem to operate well though.

20 years, 10 months

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PC floppy cable twists...

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? 1) Great, it means both drives in a system can be jumpered for the same ID - but someone's still got to go in and jumper/modify the last drive in the chain so that it's terminated, so it's not like the twist eliminates messing around with jumpers. 2) when the twist was introduced, there were presumably no clone machines around (it was there from day 1 IIRC) - and wouldn't the addition of a second floppy drive to an IBM machine have been a field service call anyway? So it's not like it was the general public changing jumpers, but a trained engineer... 3) IBM seemed to use a very small range of drives in the PC / XT / 286 days, so it's not like there'd be a million jumper combinations to figure out. If a customer tried to add their own drive rather than buying through IBM, surely IBM couldn't care less if they struggled to figure the drive jumpers on their 'non-standard' unit out? It's got me curious as it seems like a hack that doesn't completely solve any kind of problem whilst introducing a difference between IBM and the rest of the industry. cheers Jules

20 years, 10 months

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