- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

How exactly do PAL chips get programmed?

by swtpc6800＠comcast.net

As mentioned in other post you need the correct programmer to read the PAL fuse pattern. You must specify the exact manufacture and part number to configure the programmer or you can ruin the PAL. Around 1985 I did an experiment on decoding the logic of PALs with the security fuse programmed. This used just TTL levels to apply test patterns to the inputs and read the outputs. For registered devices you would also apply the clock. You would develop large truth tables that could be reduced to provide equivalent logic equations. I used the test vector feature on a Data I/O Logic Pack but you could build a simple test fixture to apply inputs and read the output levels. This process should work with simple PALs, 22V10s and 16V8s.Combinatorial devices like the 16L8 are easy to decode. Apply all possible inputs and read the outputs. You will need to treat I/O pins as inputs and determine if the pin is tri-state. Registered devices such as the 16R8 require a bit of work. Apply an input and clock it through all possible states, Eight registers would require up to 256 clocks. Some devices power up in a known or repeatable state, early devices power up in a random state. Suppose a device powers up to all zeros, >from that state you need to find all possible next states by applying various inputs. Reset the part, go to a known state and try input pattern 1 and record the output. Repeat with input pattern 2 and so on. The idea is to build a state table with all inputs and transitions. A logic reduction program such as Espresso will simplify these large tables to minimized equations. I used Data I/O's ABEL program to do this. This method will only work on devices where the feedback is from the pin so there are no hidden registers. These PALs have the output enable controlled by a pin so you can always read the register state. Some devices allowed the registers to be preloaded to a known state to speed testing. These make it simple to get to each state to find the transitions to the next state. You must have the correct programming algorithm to use the feature or you could ruin the device. I did this experiment 20 years ago and don't have any more information on it. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: removing parts from PCBs > From: Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:24:01 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> writes: > > >>> Is that the stuff in Cray's? Now we know why they are so much! > >>> > >> A relative, but not the same stuff. Cray used Fluorinert F-77, > >> which boils at about 203F. > > woodelf> So what is wrong with cheap water? I guess - inert - says > woodelf> it all. > >Water is not inert, especially not when hot. > > paul The real problem with water is not it's conductivity. High power tube transmitters have used distilled water in the past as it's a really poor conductor if kept clean. DEC experimented with water cooling too. The Aquarius project was a water cooled VAX. Too many headaches with leakage, heat transfer to the environment and installation issues. Systems like that use a chiller and heat exchanger to cool the closed loop water system. Those are costly and difficult to install. Murder if it should leak in a computer room. Then there is an efficientcy problem as you end up using power to move heat which adds heat.. With all that, the circuits they were trying to cool were getting more power efficient. So by time they worked out wet cooling air cooling was again attractive or at least far easier. It's still packaging. ;) Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:19:04 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: > >><sarcasm warning> >>And you want it delivered configured for free. >> >> >> >yes ! Free is good. >I even want it shipped. ah, reading impaired? > >But say other than ebay ( something I can't use because stupid scammers >useing >my email address ) how much is a PDP - 11 cpu, dual serial card, 64kb >of memory >and working mass storage that can be reasionable shipped? > >> >>Allison >> >> >PS and even a power supply and bootstrap rom . Front panel is not needed. Ok it's very obvious you know nothing of PDP-11s. First, 64kb of memory. PDP11s have memory mapped IO so the TOP 8kb of memory is IO space. Typically a loaded PDP11 without MMU is 24-28kW of ram (words as its a 16bitter). Now with all that been said about models, boards and busses. You expressed no wish other "I want one.". Well lets all drop a 11/70 mid sized system on you. Figure about 500 pounds and 3 6ft racks plus a few washing machine sized disks. Got a spare room with air conditioning. Don't forget you need a 220V 30A drop for that. Oh, too big. Ok how about an microPDP11 on about 30" deep, 27" tall and 8" wide. Runs on 120V maybe 4-5a max. Oh weighs in around 60pounds with a single hard disk of 30mb. Should easily cost more to ship than buy. Shipping will cost a bomb due to both size and weight. The disk should be removed and packed seperately. Not a lot of those around but a great find. Next down is a BA-11VA box about 4x11x13" and only four bual width slots. Shipable and likely cheap. The trick is using a 11/23 cpu, MXV11 and MRV11 to get over 256k of ram, two serial ports and boot roms in three boards. Of course theres still no mass storage and RX02 is abou 50 pound rack mount or at least table top sized. The RQDX3 is an other one board solution but the BA11VA doesnt support a distribution board or power for the drives so it's not easily used. RL02 is a quad width, not usable in that box. Maybe too small a box. So thats cheap and common usually the BAll-S. Recognizable by the three toggle switches on the front. had plenty of bus and power for most Qbus boards. No disk bays and generally meant for rack mounting. So usually you want one of these in a rack of the 48" or taller. Then disks like RX02 and RL02 are easily mounted. Not shippable except by freight. The good news is of all PDP11s they are most common and often free. Try your local university. Can't give cost for a reason, soon as you ask the price is what traffic will support. Suppliers exist for used DEC boards and systems. Prices are what they are. Local to me, (less than 10 miles from DEC home central) aka, The Greater Maynard Area PDP11 systems are common, and usually free if you haul. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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DEC "Junk" rescued

by Useddec＠aol.com

Sorry, I was going in numerical order, not production year. Paul

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by alanp＠snowmoose.com

>>Chris M wrote: >> >> >> >>>IINM, the first edition was yeller, and had no media. >>>I don't have it in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it >>>was numero uno. The source code of course is printed >>>in the book. And I thought 3 editions were already >>>released? >>> >>> I have my copy of the book of the first edition in front of me and the cover is yellow/pale tan. It is copyrighted 1987 and my copy is from the second printing. It was printed for the US market. It came with no media; a page inside the book describes the four media distributions (three different floppy options and a 9-track tape option) with their ISBN numbers so you could order them from Prentice-Hall. I remember seeing a red cover version of the book. I think it was when I was working in Germany in 91-92, but that was too long ago for me to remember the details. alan

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:08:58 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > >>I just paid about ?30 for some PDP11/03 boards, CPU, MXV11 and some kind >>of serial card (can't remember the exact type). I had a BA23 lying around >>empty, and an RQDX3. Now I need some media... >> >> >> >Well what about a whole set ? A lot of people like myself can't be >mix-ing and matching >part. I just want to pen the box and plug it in if I were to buy one. Why not? generally building Qbus PDP11s is like the proverbial chinese menu. One from column A one from B and One from C. You need a Qbus box there are three common ones. A cpu there are 4 common cheap ones. Memory Various and second sources. Serial IO one will do (or more) gobs of choices. Common choices are DLV11F (single line) or DLV11J four line. OR MXV11 (two serial and ram on one card) The crunch item is storage as it's often big or if reasonably current like anything SCSI not common hence expensive. >PS A small HD would be nice too. I got a terminal already <sarcasm warning> And you want it delivered configured for free. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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DEC "Junk" rescued

by Useddec＠aol.com

Hi, As I recall, the 11/05, 11/15, 11/35 and maybe 11/45 were what DEC referred to as the "OEM" versions of the 11/10, 11/20, 11/40, and 11/50. Paul

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by Useddec＠aol.com

Illinois- Overseas can ship mail, Fed-Ex or DHL. Still looking for the terminator and cable.

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:15:33 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Got an RX50, not got any (known-good) RX50 media. I seem to recall that >normal 5.25" DD floppies are a no-no, but I can't remember why. The regular brown media works fine, the problem is 10 512byte sectors per track and 80 tracks. Not a normal PC format, though it can do it. John Wilsons putr does it if memory is working today. If you format them on an -11 you need XXDP as RT-11 doesnt. If the uVAX2000 has RX50 or RX33 it can format floppies as well as RQDX3 Compatable hard disks. All from the console test software So a minimal uVAX2000 (without any OS) can be a useful applience. I keep one around with longer cables for that reason. >> The hard disk is st412(10mb), ST225(20mb), st250(40mb), Quantum D540 (30mb). >> However they must be formatted with either xxdp or deom a system that can >> such as uVAX2000 (for RQDX3 only). > >Yes, I've been reading up on this. Apparently you can modify XXDP to >handle different formats, too. I *think* I might have an ST225. St225 is RD31, a standard format. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:31:36 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Wow! That's great. I hadn't thought of using VTserver. I'll download >it and see if I can get it working. I guess that means I'll have to >switch my MXV11 over to TU58 boot though. Easier way is to hit halt or break and use odt to load by and the tu58 boot. Saves messing with a jungle of wirewrap posts on the MXV. Allison > >On Nov 17, 2005, at 4:24 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> David Betz wrote: >>> Do you know if a PC controller for an MFM drive can format an >>> ST225 sufficiently that RT-11 can use it? I figure it would get >>> the high level format wrong but wouldn't the low level format be >>> okay? Can't RT-11 handle the high level formatting? >> >> Much easier, in my opinion, just to do it in XXDP. I have the >> Winchester standalone (zrqch0?) from XXDP modified** to boot from >> VTserver v2.x. If you want to try that, check out the system >> requirements for VTserver and remind me next week and I'll send you >> the fixed standalone utility. I've used it on ST225, ST251, RD53 >> and RD54 disks. >> >> >> Doc >> >> ** according to J. Engdahl's excellent instructions

20 years, 9 months

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Fastest NSC800?

by cclist＠sydex.com

Did National ever make a version of the NSC800 that ran faster than 4 MHz? If so, where can I get one? Cheers, Chuck

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:12:03 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Do you know if a PC controller for an MFM drive can format an ST225 >sufficiently that RT-11 can use it? I figure it would get the high >level format wrong but wouldn't the low level format be okay? Can't >RT-11 handle the high level formatting? NO, on the PC controller. Tried it and no success with any RQDXn version as I have all three (and flavors of each at that). Reminder. RQDX1 and 2 use one format and RQDX3 uses a different format. No idea of the spcifics only that they do not interchange. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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pdp-11 microcode source files?

by brad＠heeltoe.com

Just curious, Does anyone have source files for any of the PDP-11 microcode? I know the 11/44 microcode is on bitsavers, but it's pdf. I'm curious if anyone has source files for the 44, 45 or 70. -brad

20 years, 9 months

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Announcement: Firmware archiving/programming

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Fellow ClassicCmp folk, I would like to extend an offer to those who do not have device programming equipment, or who have device programmers that do not handle a specific type of device (such as bipolar PROMs) that you may need to read or program. Specifically, for owners/users of classic systems, I will program whatever device(s) you need done (within reason -- let's not dump 50 of the things on me at once, please) at no cost other than postage. The only restriction I'm going to put on this is that you be the actual owner of the system or device that needs the programmed chip. Please don't try to re-sell my service to others. I would also like to ask for contributions to a growing FTP archive. Just as one example, firmware from Dilog or Emulex controller boards. If you have such controllers, or others, and would like to see the firmware made available to those who may have damaged memory or logic devices on their boards, please consider loaning me said EPROMs (or PROMs, or PALs, or whatever) so that I can read and archive them. Any devices mailed in for archiving will be returned to their original owner at no charge whatsoever. One final word: Due to spammers and other network abusers, and worm-infested machines, I've had to install some fairly heavy spam filtering on our mail servers. Large chunks of Comcast, Shaw, PacBell/SBC, and RoadRunner IP netspace, just to name a few, are blocked for E-mail traffic, as are big patches of Europe and the Pacific Rim countries. If any message you happen to send to me bounces, please try my alternate address of kc7gr (at) qsl dot net. Worst case, put in a brief 'Page' for me on the group. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?"

20 years, 9 months

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DEC "Junk" rescued

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: DEC "Junk" rescued > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 00:29:03 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Funny thing about PDP-11 system models. Even number for the most part >> are unibus like 11/34 or 11/44 (11/05, 11/35 exception) and odd number >> like 11/03, 11/23 are qbus. > >I thought all machines ending in 5 (05, 35, 45, 55) were Unibus. What about the 11/34m 11/44, 11/60! >>From what I've read (and I've seen a manual with a sketch of one), there >were going to be 11/09 and 11/39 machines. These would have been >'packaged' versions of the 11/04 and 11/34 (much as the 11/10 is a >packaged version of the 11/05). In the end, I don't think DEC ever >shipped a machien with that nameplate, they were all marked 11/04 or >11/34 as appropriate. > >-tony The package machines were the PDT11 series (models 110, 130 and 150 were all cousinns of the 11/03) and the Pro350(f11 cpu) and PRO380(J11 cpu). Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Looking for a GraphOn 235 keyboard

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

Hi, I have this GraphOn 235 next to me that arrived some time ago without a keyboard. It appears to take a handset jack (_not_ an RJ11, but similar), so unless it _happens_ to be compatible with an LK201-type keyboard, I'd have nothing to go on it. I've been googling on it, but not finding any technical docs, only "how to use" instructions for various universities. I _know_ it emulates a Tek 4014 (among other things), so docs of that nature aren't getting me anywhere. Anyone have any hard technical docs on something like this, or at least know something about its keyboard? Internally, it's driven by a 68000, but without disassembling the ROMs and reverse-engineering the memory map, I can't tell much about how it works. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:41:22 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Actually, I meant the RL02 terminator. I have been entering bootstrap Only needed for RL02. Not the RX02 as mentioned. >code by hand since one of my bootstrap ROMs went pins-up a couple of >weeks ago - you may remember I posted asking about favoured boot ROM >images? Not to mention entering quite a lot of code into ODT by hand >when I first got my 11/73 and *nothing* would play nicely... > >Originally the Baydel multipurpose card could boot pretty much any >common QBus mass storage. Like the bdv11 (m8012). >> The RQDX will need the distribution board to breakout the floppy and HD >> connection from the 50pin cable. If you find prints it's something >> that can be wire wrapped (it's only connectors). The boot for MSCP >> disks is also possible to hand enter. > >Got the breakout board, in the BA23. Haven't played with it yet though. Floppy disk can be RX50 or TEACFD55GFR. If the controller is RQDXXX1 or 2 the disk will be RX50 or only one side of Teac (RX33). If RQDX2 depending on ROM rev it will be RX50 and or RX33 (800k). You can bet on RX50 compatability in all cases which is single sided 80track 10 SPT. To use the teac you may require nonstandard jumpers [compared to RX33] on the drive to make it look and act like RX50 to older RQDXn though it does work fine. The hard disk is st412(10mb), ST225(20mb), st250(40mb), Quantum D540 (30mb). However they must be formatted with either xxdp or deom a system that can such as uVAX2000 (for RQDX3 only). Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by Useddec＠aol.com

Hi Gordon, I have the RLV21, and I'll have to look for the cable and terminator. Where are you located? Thanks, Paul

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:36:37 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >woodelf wrote: >> gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >> >>> I just paid about ?30 for some PDP11/03 boards, CPU, MXV11 and some kind >>> of serial card (can't remember the exact type). I had a BA23 lying >>> around >>> empty, and an RQDX3. Now I need some media... >>> >>> >>> >> Well what about a whole set ? A lot of people like myself can't be >> mix-ing and matching >> part. I just want to pen the box and plug it in if I were to buy one. >> >> PS A small HD would be nice too. I got a terminal already > >That is pretty much a whole set. Oh, I didn't mention the two >opto-isolated I/O cards I got from eBay too, they should be fun! > >I got (from a bloke in Australia, just beating a chip collector) on eBay >the following: M8047, M8043 and M7270. > >The M7270 is a cpu, and the M8047 has some memory, bootstrap ROMs and >two SLUs on board. I could build a very nice portable RT-11 machine >just with that! > >Wonder what the current draw is? > >Gordon. M7270 +5V at 1A +12V at .22A M8043 +5V at 1A +12V at .25A 4 serial ports M8027 +5V at 1.2A +12V at .1A 2 serial ports, MXV11AC 32kb ram +Eprom The M7270 is the LSI11/2 CPU (16bit address) and the MXV11 multifunction card are a near complete system on two cards. You would only need a Tu58 equiventlt on the secod serial port to boot or some disk (RXV21) to have a system in three boards. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:51:55 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> Allison wrote: >> >>>Minix on PDP11, Not that I know of. It would be interesting. >>> >>> >>> >> Well I think Minix #1, would be easy to port, but why? You got real >> unix. >> It just proves how effective code on the 11 could be. Too bad you can't >> buy >> a pdp-11 cpu chip for $2.49 like a 8088. I take it is still rather pricy >> to put together >> a basic 11. Any body know how much? > >I just paid about ?30 for some PDP11/03 boards, CPU, MXV11 and some kind >of serial card (can't remember the exact type). I had a BA23 lying around >empty, and an RQDX3. Now I need some media... > >Alternatively, anyone got an RXV21, RL02 cable and terminator they can >sell me? > >Gordon. Terminator not required save for those with boot proms on them. However a bootable 11/03 only needs memory, console and RX01/2 and the willingness to use ODT to enter about 30 words of boot code by hand. The RQDX will need the distribution board to breakout the floppy and HD connection from the 50pin cable. If you find prints it's something that can be wire wrapped (it's only connectors). The boot for MSCP disks is also possible to hand enter. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Anyone near Norfolk,VA.

by ics65＠sbcglobal.net

Anyone near Norfolk, Va. that can check out a government auction at (7829 Seventh St., SDA 202, Norfolk, VA 23511) to see if 2ea. Data General items really exist, before 5pm tomorrow the 18th.? Thanks for your time, George Wiegand Vintage Data General Computer Enthusiast

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:31:01 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: > >>Minix on PDP11, Not that I know of. It would be interesting. >> >Well I think Minix #1, would be easy to port, but why? You got real unix. >It just proves how effective code on the 11 could be. Too bad you can't buy >a pdp-11 cpu chip for $2.49 like a 8088. I take it is still rather pricy >to put together a basic 11. Any body know how much? If you can find a defunct VT240 or 241 box the CPU in there is T-11 (40 pin basic PDP11) which was used on the Falcon card. I'd bet a DC310 can be had cheap if you can find a source. For PDP11s there are three catagories. Unibus machines, large and more complex. Qbus machines (11/03, 11/23 series) smaller more common and easier to work with. Packaged system PDT11/150 (11/03 with 2 8" floppies) or Pro3xx (11/23 or J11 chips with floppy and hard disks). The PDT11/150 if could is a compact system and removes hardware from the picture as its a bounded system. The PROs are bounded but do have option boards. The Qbus systems are most often seen un bounded PDP-11s and are easily configured. The last 3 PDP-11/23s I got were free as in "Here, take it". However if you want a SCSI card or maybe any disk controller those can be harder as those are most often first things stripped. For example I found a microPDP11 with the disks removed as they were MFM and fit PCs of the day. The RQDX controllers are often stripped for Qbus VAXen (microvaxII). Larger disks are like RL02 or RX02 get seperated and "lost" or rescued in preference to the whole system. But a basic box, cpu, memory and serial cards are common and cheap to free. A PC with the right code can simulate TU58 tape and provide a working system that runs RT-11. With a bit of creativity and a Qbus parallel IO card and the PCs infamous and useful printer port a faster parallel disk simulation is doable. Most small PDP11s (11/03, 11/23, 11/23b) have ODT (Octal Debugging Tool) in microcode or local rom so a terminal can be your front pannel making it easy to load a small boot program. If that weren't enough there are a pot load of PDP11 sims that you could develop on till hardware lands on you. Now Minux on PDP11. Minix is not unix, the look to the user the same but internally there is almost no commonality. Unix on PDP11 requires a disk and later versions require the bigger/later 11s that have I&D. Minix once loaded is entirely memory resident and uses relatively small space for itself. For PDP11 I'd expect a 8kW version that runs useful stuff in 24kW (pdp11s without MMU (LSI-11 [11/2 and 11/03]) would not be out of the question due to code efficientcy of the -11. If later CPUs (11/23, 23b, 73 for Qbus) are used then 256kb or 4mb are possible with MMU. An -11 with 256k is a very repectable machine running any OS. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Question for the antique gear restorers

by cclist＠sydex.com

I've got a system here that had gray foam rubber used as a sound deadener. Well, after 24 years, it's toast--you touch it and it's gone. No surprise, right? What do you folks use to replace the stuff (assuming that I don't want to put someone through this in 20 more years)? Adhesive-backed wool felt? Cheers, Chuck

20 years, 9 months

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Berg connector repair

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Berg connector repair > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:21:07 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >I have a wire that is broken on the Berg connector that plugs into my >DLV12 controller for my RL01 drive. How do I remove one of the pins >from the Berg connector so that I can reattach the broken wire? Is it >possible to repair these connectors or do I have to replace it? I've done both. However it's easier to replace the whole connector depending of the particular style. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:20:58 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Chris M wrote: > >>IINM, the first edition was yeller, and had no media. >>I don't have it in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it >>was numero uno. The source code of course is printed >>in the book. And I thought 3 editions were already >>released? >> The second edition had V2 Minix on CDrom with it. It ran on 8088s and there was a small memory version. >Well my copy did have media. Just too many moves with no storage. >I checked the minux 3 faq and and it says 4 meg of ram needed, >the web blurb says 8 and all want 16 meg.I guess you could >compile it for a smaller system. Did not early 386's only >have 2 or 4 meg ram? Minix 3 is bigger. Most 386s were either small as in 1-4meg or could go to 16-32m. My inboard 386 has 1mb of onboard plus potential expansion to 4meg. But my SIIG 3000 has 5meg of 30pin simms in it. A 386/33 mini AT board I have will take 8 30 pin simms or 32meg max. I have 8meg in it. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Did someone have a pdp11/24?

by Useddec＠aol.com

Hi, I thought I saw someone say they picked one up in a lot of equipment, but must have lost it. Thanks, Paul

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: Scott Stevens <chenmel at earthlink.net> > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:16:12 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 00:38:07 +0000 (GMT) >ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> > That is exactly why I did not buy the 3 ed. Minux has been re-wrtten >> > from a 8088 to a 386+ >> > in the 3rd ed. 8 meg of ram min is needed, 16 recomended. I was buying >> >> BLETCH!!! >> >> That means it wouldn't run on this PC (too little RAM), for all I am >> running an old version of linux with no problems. >> >> The reason I bought Minix in the beginning was that it would run on my >> PC/XT machine (the only PC I had at the time). And I learnt a fair bit >> about OSes and enough C to be dangerous by playing about with it. >> >> 8MB and a 386 is not a small machine! >> > >It is small for any 'modern' version of Linux. Most 'distros' now are being built with compile options that don't even allow it to run on a regular 386. There isn't the same problem for Net or OpenBSD. Probably one of the reasons I like the BSDs more than Linux: the fact that they support as 'equal' all those old architectures 'keeps them honest' and keeps the install system from by default installing a horrendous amount of bloat. I have the same basic compliment of binaries, built from the same source tree, on a little old Sparc IPX and on a Pentium III system. > >Early versions of Linux are reaching the age where they are 'technically' on topic here. FYI: third edition is actually a very recent release maybe a few months old. Since it's on line and all older version ar still available and the license is far more relaxed than before. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Minix

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Minix > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 00:38:07 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> That is exactly why I did not buy the 3 ed. Minux has been re-wrtten >> from a 8088 to a 386+ >> in the 3rd ed. 8 meg of ram min is needed, 16 recomended. I was buying > >BLETCH!!! > >That means it wouldn't run on this PC (too little RAM), for all I am >running an old version of linux with no problems. > >The reason I bought Minix in the beginning was that it would run on my >PC/XT machine (the only PC I had at the time). And I learnt a fair bit >about OSes and enough C to be dangerous by playing about with it. > >8MB and a 386 is not a small machine! > >> the book for ideas for a small >> computer I building. ( hardware real soon ... ) that I have to write >> since I have a unque instruction >> set and word length. This version of the computer will have 64kb of >> memory of 12k to 16kb I want >> to save for the OS. > >Feel like porting Unix V6 (as in the Lions Book)? > >-tony Earlier versions are still available all the way back to 1.5 on line. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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what's the world's biggest circuit/motherboard?

by marvin＠rain.org

The biggest circuit board I've ever seen was on the order of 2 feet x 3 feet. Not sure of the actual dimmensions except this thing was LARGE. I was thinking at the time that it would have needed to be drilled using more than one head of the NC drilling machine (along with the associated alignment)! > contemporary with the 68k articles. I have on hand an > approximately 4' x 2.5' sheet of double clad circuit > material, and I could cut the size I needed from that. > But it got me to thinking (uh oh). Wouldn't it be fun > to build a REALLY big motherboard. You could put all

20 years, 9 months

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what's the world's biggest circuit/motherboard?

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

This winter I'd like to try and build the RE Robot Brain board (80188) that appeared in Radio Electronics contemporary with the 68k articles. I have on hand an approximately 4' x 2.5' sheet of double clad circuit material, and I could cut the size I needed from that. But it got me to thinking (uh oh). Wouldn't it be fun to build a REALLY big motherboard. You could put all sorts of uP's on it, ala the Dimension 68000. You could put the kitchen sink on it (literally). More then likely you could build something so powerful, you could throw out your Terragigahertz Pentium whatever system, and heat your home at the same time. And probably the surrounding neighbors home's too. You might even cripple the power grid. It would be like sort of a black hole for electrons. Has anyone built a really big motherboard? __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com

20 years, 9 months

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DEC "Junk" rescued

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: RE: DEC "Junk" rescued > From: Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:33:03 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Allison" == Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> writes: > > Allison> I thought the 11/24 was the 11/23 chipset (F-11) mated to > Allison> Unibus rather than the Qbus. > >Correct. > > >> 11/24 is split I&D UNIBUS, right? > >Nope... > > paul Funny thing about PDP-11 system models. Even number for the most part are unibus like 11/34 or 11/44 (11/05, 11/35 exception) and odd number like 11/03, 11/23 are qbus. I&D for Chipset CPUs didn't start untill the J-11. The F11 gave us user/system register sets and the MMU. The unibus J11 was the 11/84 I believe. F11 machines are a good workhorse 11s. As far as my data goes all of the chip (F11 and J11) cpus on unibus are faster by some amount as there isn't the multiplxed address/data bus transaction. Though I believe the real reason was to preserve the unibus IO investment and generally higher IO transaction rate that unibus devices enjoyed. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Model 26 tty

by ddl-cctech＠danlan.com

Sorry, that's Gloucester, Massachusetts, USA. :) Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com

20 years, 9 months

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semi-homemade micro

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

Allison wrote: > Everyone has done the PC emulating whatever. Why not take a > single chip micro and use that to emulate another micro as > hardware? Same idea maybe slow but for a lot of things speed > is not the whole world. > I did it on paper for PDP8 and it was possible using an 11mhz > 8049 to come within 1/10 the speed of a real 8. I guess a > 36bit machine could be done as well (though really slow.). > Also a front pannel could be programmed into it as well > (maybe a speed hit). Any cpu that gets an instruction from > memory and then executes it can be emulated that way. 1/10 the speed of a real PDP8? Really? That is fast indeed! My emulation of a PDP8, running on a 68B09 (at 2 MHz) gets to approx 1/60 of the real thing. I measured that by running some diagnostics. The diag says "bell rings after approx 5 seconds), and timed how long it took on my 68B09... I am sure that when I remove the front panel code things run faster. The front panel requires time to update. But running the emulation without the front panel is no fun. - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 9 months

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homebrew 'puter project (was: 8008?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: homebrew 'puter project (was: 8008? > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:13:15 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 11/16/2005 at 1:34 PM Allison wrote: > > >>Unless it gets crazy I tend to do that. Create a parallel interface with >>a protocal to talk over it to a slave and let the slave do the grunt work. >>Did that back around 81 for the first time using 8085 and 8035 and found >>it nice to have a limited IO on the host yet get good performance. Now >>with AVR, PIC and others it's pretty reasonable. Just let it interrupt >>the host when there's something for it or when done. > >Of course, since a PC has all of the I/O support needed, one could simply >let it be the I/O servicer. > >That way, if a problem with the homebrew box came up, the homebrew hardware >could be emulated on the PC. One could even cut down on construction and >debugging time by simply sticking the necessary components into a >prototyping PCB, skipping the nasty wiring stage just adding an illuminated >LED on the board (blink if you want) and emulate the whole lashup on the >PC. > >Sort of like sitting behind the wheel of a car with the engine turned off, >saying "vroom, vrooooom". > >:) > >--Chuck ;) I reject that for only one reason. The PC is too big and power hungry. I'm up for gutting an old laptop and using the battery, keyboard and display. Oh and the hinge. :) Allison

20 years, 9 months

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And finally the end of the RL02 story

by charlesmorris＠direcway.com

I made my own ribbon cable, removed the drive's input connector and hooked everything up (making sure all the A pins of the Berg connectors aligned with the stripe). Crossed my fingers and powered up the system. Guess what... same error, Fault and Ready lamps lit again, Load lamp out. Crap! But all was not lost. Once again I checked for system clock and it was not on the correct pins any more. I counted from each end of the header cable (attached to the drive board connector) and noticed the clock signals were on the 13th and 14th pin from the end. That's M and N at the drive logic board end, confirmed by the schematic, but the clock is on pins HH and JJ at the RL8A end which just happens to be the 13th and 14th pin from the other end! So - although the 40 pin cable is a "straight through" (pin for pin), it turns out one end has to be reversed I flipped the Berg connector over at the RL8A and everything now works :) It is definitely inverted though, the black stripe on the ribbon cable is in the "wrong" place for the RL8A end now. I let it spin with the heads locked out for a while to remove all the dust I probably stirred up. It operateds without any funny noises (can't even hear it over the 8/A fans) and the Ready lamp now lights after pushing the Load button and waiting for spin-up, which is proper behavior. Then I keyed in the 10-word get-status program from the manual and it returned the proper status words (head over track 0, no error bits set) and can tell if the cover's open, the write protect switch is pushed, etc. Now all I need is software :) -Charles

20 years, 9 months

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homebrew 'puter project

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

Yep, Roger, I know! I have the 6309 here, and guess where I bought it :-) AFAIK Cloud 9 is the only source. There will probably be others that sell this chip, but Cloud 9 is the only source I know of. I never bother with the chip selling sites that want your (e-mail) information, you say what you want, and they will give you a quote ... yeah, but I only want *one* not 1000! The downside of the 6309 is just what you say: to squeeze speed out of it, you must go into native mode. Many 4-cycle instructions execute in 3 cycles, so roughly you gain approx. 25%. You pay that by an expensive chip, and to make full use of the native mode, you must drop 6809 code, or write it in conditional assembly. I will use the 6309 instead of the 68E09 one day! Given the time, I enjoy writing the 68000 code from the 6809 so one day I might start this project. It is pure software to me, because as I said, I have built a 68000 modular system 10 year ago. It is still in the attick ... - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Roger Merchberger Verzonden: wo 16-11-2005 20:18 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: RE: homebrew 'puter project Rumor has it that Gooijen, Henk may have mentioned these words: >... and to put oil on the fire, I am thinking about redoing the 6809 part, >and replace it by a 68000 at 10 MHz. Maybe a single board with just >enough I/O ports (not PIT 68230 IIRC, but simple octal latches) for >the pdp8/e console and RAM plus EPROM on board. >But as said: I am *thinking* about it. >I probably first start figuring out if rewriting the pdp8/e emulator 6809 >code into 68000 assembler, making use of all the registers will give >the speed increase to compete with the real pdp8/e. >I have my doubts. If you wanted to do something to make it go faster but not cause you to rewrite everything, you could replace the Moto6809 with a Hitachi 6309 - code / clock / pin compatible with the 6809, but if you set it to "non-compatible mode," has access to extra registers, fewer cycles for most instructions, not to mention a hardware divide & some 32-bit math instructions. It'll also clock at 3 to 4 Mhz (for the CMOS part - the 63C09) so you could see quite a speed increase for not a lot of work... One downfall: they ain't cheap (altho cheaper than an 8008! ;-) and can be tough to find if you don't know where to look. I do, tho. ;-) Browze on over to http://www.cloud9tech.com/ - they keep 'em in stock there, $31 each. Great guys, and are still supporting the CoCo! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 9 months

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Model 26 tty available

by ddl-cctech＠danlan.com

Located in Gloucester. Anybody interested? Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com

20 years, 9 months

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homebrew 'puter project (was: 8008?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: homebrew 'puter project (was: 8008? > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:14:12 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >If I were to build a system from chips today, I'd probably relegate all of >my I/O devices to some commodity interface, using single-chip >microcontrollers where some particular intelligence was required. Leave >the CPU free for the heavy computational lifting. > >Cheers, >Chuck Unless it gets crzy I tend to do that. Create a parallel interface with a protocal to talk over it to a slave and let the slave do the grunt work. Did that back around 81 for the first time using 8085 and 8035 and found it nice to have a limited IO on the host yet get good performance. Now with AVR, PIC and others it's pretty reasonable. Just let it interrupt the host when there's something for it or when done. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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RL02 cable problem

by charlesmorris＠direcway.com

I found (a) problem, probably (the) problem, after several hours of board-level debugging trying to figure out the Fault indicator... the fancy original DEC ribbon cable is bad at the Berg end where it plugs into the controller! With the board in the card extender, which is the only way to allow the cable to move and reproduce the problem, I flexed the ribbon cable to about 45 degrees above the board. Lo and behold... the Fault lamp went out :) I am now making a Berg-Berg cable and will install it from inside the drive compartment. This will obviously help but I'll post when (if) it's running. ;) Interesting that this same discussion is taking place on cctalk with someone else's "new" RL02... -Charles

20 years, 9 months

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Ultrix for DECstations

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Ultrix for DECstations > From: Wai-Sun Chia <waisun.chia at gmail.com> > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:31:19 +0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 11/14/05, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: >> > >> >> Anyone ever do a wintel editor (NOT WORD) that had a single key for advance >> cursor one word? >> > >Well back then, whenever I was away from my VAXcluster, and was forced >to use MS-DOS for something or another I used to use something called >"sedt" (nicknamed "sad editor") which was a EDT clone on DOS. Anybody >remembered that? I may still have it. Didn't like it and it had "issues". >As fro a single key cursor advance command, there's always the >plethora of vi clones (elvis, vim, etc.) for Wintel... First choice when all else fails, vi. >Heck, in fact for those masochists there's a version of teco (yes the >one which you used on the PDP-8!) for *NIX written in 'C'! :-) If you >used it often enough you may even be pissed off enough to reinvent >emacs again! VTECO was a nice thing. EMACS was not. My favorite for the CP/M world is VEDIT which was configurable video editor with a drop to command (like vi) that understood TECO command there. Very small too. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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homebrew 'puter project (was: 8008?

by zmerch＠30below.com

Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >I've been thinking about the tiny-8008 project for some time - I may >have to scrape together the parts and give it a go - I can always >borrow an 8008 from my pile of 11/34 spare parts. I've been thinking of building my own 6809 project (I have four AVR projects and a couple serial ports on a Linksys router I need to build first, tho)...[1] Originally I was going to design and build my own buss structure / backplane ( I was thinking 80 pins - 40-pin IDE headers are bog-easy to find... ;-) something that could expand to a 16-bit CPU.... First card would be a fully buffered CPU, next card might be 256K or 512K RAM, 3rd card might be a small LED/LCD display (2x40 or somesuch) and of course, one card full'o'blinkinlights... ;-) My question: Would I be better to do that, or should I center it around an existing buss, like VME or somesuch? >Of course, as soon as I do that, I'll have to rig something up for a >4004... ;-) I think it wouldn't be too hard to make a 4004-based >digital clock, at least in terms of the programming. I've been wanting to build a digital thermostat. "Why spend $50 on one from the local hardware store, when I can build one for $100!" ;-) Naw, besides, the prebuilt thingies don't give enough 'programmability' for my tastes. Having started out with the 6809, personally I find it hard to get excited about 4-bit CPUs, myself... ;-) [[ Altho I did have at one time that Radio Shack single-TI-chip-4-bit computer trainer thingy... ]] Ah well, back to work. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] I just got the latest (non-CVS) tarball of PCB compiled on my new Linux From Scratch 6.1 install on my laptop - I'm ready to start designing things. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com |

20 years, 9 months

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homebrew 'puter project

by zmerch＠30below.com

Rumor has it that Gooijen, Henk may have mentioned these words: >... and to put oil on the fire, I am thinking about redoing the 6809 part, >and replace it by a 68000 at 10 MHz. Maybe a single board with just >enough I/O ports (not PIT 68230 IIRC, but simple octal latches) for >the pdp8/e console and RAM plus EPROM on board. >But as said: I am *thinking* about it. >I probably first start figuring out if rewriting the pdp8/e emulator 6809 >code into 68000 assembler, making use of all the registers will give >the speed increase to compete with the real pdp8/e. >I have my doubts. If you wanted to do something to make it go faster but not cause you to rewrite everything, you could replace the Moto6809 with a Hitachi 6309 - code / clock / pin compatible with the 6809, but if you set it to "non-compatible mode," has access to extra registers, fewer cycles for most instructions, not to mention a hardware divide & some 32-bit math instructions. It'll also clock at 3 to 4 Mhz (for the CMOS part - the 63C09) so you could see quite a speed increase for not a lot of work... One downfall: they ain't cheap (altho cheaper than an 8008! ;-) and can be tough to find if you don't know where to look. I do, tho. ;-) Browze on over to http://www.cloud9tech.com/ - they keep 'em in stock there, $31 each. Great guys, and are still supporting the CoCo! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers

20 years, 9 months

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homebrew 'puter project

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

... and to put oil on the fire, I am thinking about redoing the 6809 part, and replace it by a 68000 at 10 MHz. Maybe a single board with just enough I/O ports (not PIT 68230 IIRC, but simple octal latches) for the pdp8/e console and RAM plus EPROM on board. But as said: I am *thinking* about it. I probably first start figuring out if rewriting the pdp8/e emulator 6809 code into 68000 assembler, making use of all the registers will give the speed increase to compete with the real pdp8/e. I have my doubts. BTW, I have built mid-1995 a simple 68000 design. I could scan it. 64-pin 68000, 2x2764, 2xTC5565, 6800 plus glue logic *and* address and data bus buffers on a single Eurocard. It was modular, as the bus allowed extra cards for PIA's, RAM, EPROM, etc. The above mentioned new design idea is probably loading the CPU a little, because I don't intend to use buffers. Time is the big enemy here! - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens woodelf Verzonden: wo 16-11-2005 18:18 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: homebrew 'puter project Roger Merchberger wrote: > > I've been thinking of building my own 6809 project (I have four AVR > projects and a couple serial ports on a Linksys router I need to build > first, tho)...[1] > You may be better off splitting it into two cards -- cpu and memory and console. A second board for I/O and a optional third for blinking lights. Don't forget Henk has a 6809 cpu that has great blinking lights. It emulates a pdp 8. http://www.pdp-11.nl/ This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 9 months

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RL02 cont'd

by charlesmorris＠direcway.com

I think I've found the problem with my RL02 drive. Tracing back through the fault detector logic, the Clock Error Detector output is set. Backing up to the entrance, the 4.1 MHz system clock is coming in correctly on the two 75107 line receiver differential input pins (E61 1 and 2) but no clock is coming out of it... no clock -> no operation -> Fault light on :) Hope they aren't unobtainium parts! Meanwhile Tim Radde also has pointed out something else important I'd overlooked, namely that the pack cover has to be put upside down over the pack (when installed) in order to activate the cartridge interlock switch. (I had somehow missed this line in the instruction manual despite what I thought was a careful reading of the text) :P so it would have been a problem sooner or later anyway. -Charles

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: removing parts from PCBs > From: Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:51:50 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I remember that episode. The result was "Aridus" :-), now known as >the 9000. Also short lived as CMOS got faster.. > Allison> It's still packaging. ;) > >Yes. And if your circuit density isn't all that high, air cooling >works fine. > >That's why Cray actually had to solve these problems, and did back in >the early 1960s (CDC 6600), because he DID build things that could not >sanely be cooled any other way. The difference is that Cray was pushing tech harder than most and enjoyed the unique position of faster than most by alot could justify the cost and complexity. To do that they had to be smaller (the old 1ns/ft problem) and that was a heat vs volume issue. Refigeration was the only way out. They would revisit that again with the XMP. However over time the same scene tended to play out. Those that pushed and resorted to exotic cooling would be pushed out. Also those exoticly cooled machines tended to not find a second market making them scarce faster. >I don't ever remember hearing of leak problems in our Cybers... Likely not. If there was it would be a really bad scene. I bet any shutdown for more than minutes would have been viewed quite severely. My view of that period was large systems ran 24/7 and all maintenence was to be closely scheduled. I bet the CEs were also checking the loop and maybe running a pressure hold test on occasion to assure integrity. But the designers had to have paid close attention to things like assembly repair, vibration and what not to insure it worked as expected planned. Remins me of the mainframe mini joke I'd heard years ago. Minis have power switches, mainframes have BIG RED BUTTONS (emergency power off). Allison

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: removing parts from PCBs > From: William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:33:01 -0500 (EST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> Likely not. If there was it would be a really bad scene. I bet any >> shutdown for more than minutes would have been viewed quite severely. > >I only remember an IBM 3081 that had a very bad meltdown due to a hose >break or something, and the system could not shot down fast >enough. Generally, a loss in pressure would throw the machine into a check >state and do a really fast shutdown. I can see some might melt if there was cooling loss. I was thinking about execs screaming about millions of dollars of computers idle for other than requried scheduled maintenace. I read a story about a 709 that had a room chiller leak. Seems the raised floor and cable troughs were floating and it kept on ticking. Apparently there was some unwillingness to shutdown as the just was near complete and it would take days to repair/restart. >> Remins me of the mainframe mini joke I'd heard years ago. Minis have power >> switches, mainframes have BIG RED BUTTONS (emergency power off). > >BIG RED PULLS, actually... I know but, the joke didn't work as well with that. ;) Allison

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs

by leeedavison＠yahoo.co.uk

> The real problem with water is not it's conductivity. High power > tube transmitters have used distilled water in the past as it's a > really poor conductor if kept clean. They still do as it's harmless, you can make it on site and it's cheap. Resistivity of > 10Mohm/cc is practical, > 20Mohm/cc is doable and < 2Mohm/cc is too poor to use. It's strange to watch water cascade out from behind the panels of a transmitter and wonder if there's enough water left to finish the transmission. Lee. .. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

20 years, 9 months

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8008?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: 8008? > From: Tom Uban <uban at ubanproductions.com> > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:48:00 -0600 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, > cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I don't know what it's worth, but you could always use it to build >Jim Kearney's Tiny8: > >http://www.jkearney.com/tiny8demo/ > >I did and I love it... > That is a really nicely done minimal parts 8008 system. I plan to copy it once I find the displays. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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8008?

by cclist＠sydex.com

So what's an 8008 chip worth? I've got one that I don't need. I'll entertain reasonable offers. Cheers, Chuck

20 years, 9 months

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PDP-11/73 booting!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Make sure the CSR and vector of RLV12 is as described. I'm not sure of the next step without powering my system and at the moment I have two S100 crates in the way (testing). Allison > >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:08:40 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >I can't pull the MXV11 because it has the bootstrap and my console >port. I did try it without the NS memory board but that didn't work >either. In fact, RT-11 seems happy with that board as it reports the >correct total amount of memory (1.5mb). I have the single quad board >RL01/02 controller. > >Here's the result of "SH DEV": > >..SH DEV > >Device Status CSR Vector(s) >------ ------ --- --------- > DY Resident 177170 264 > LD Installed 000000 000 > SL Installed 000000 000 > VM Installed 177572 250 > NL Installed 000000 000 > DL Installed 174400 160 > >On Nov 15, 2005, at 11:03 PM, Allison wrote: > >>> >>> Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! >>> From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> >>> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 22:32:43 -0500 >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>> >>> Yes, you're right. I did type DL not RL. That was a typo in my >>> message. Yes, the DL.SYS driver is on the boot disk (RX02), there are >>> no empty slots between the CPU and the RL controller. The slots are >>> filled as follows: >>> >>> KDJ11-A >>> MSV11-LK >>> MSV11-LK >>> National Semiconductor memory board (1mb) >>> RLV12 >>> M8029 (RX02 controller) >>> MXV11 >> >> I'd pull the MXV11 and the National card them bump every one up. >> >>> No fault light (and it isn't burned out), the white load light (with >>> the "0" on it) lights. >> >> Thats a good sign. >> >>> So, I suppose that means that the cables are probably bad? BTW, I >>> have the cable plugged into the top connector on the RL01 and the >>> terminator on the bottom. Is that correct? >> >> I don't think which is which matters as it's a parallel pass through >> and the drive select plug is the determining factor. >> >>> From RT-11 a >> show dev: >> or >> >> Resorc /A >> >> Should list the devices the system knows of. It may be possible that >> one of the cards is not passing intgrant. If the system doesnt show >> the RL02 either grant chain is broken or the controller is not there. >> >> Which controller? Two board set or later single board m8061 one? >> >> The controller (RLV12) must be address at 17774400 (q22), 774400 >> (q18). >> The vector is 160. >> >> >> >> Allison

20 years, 9 months

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DEC "Junk" rescued

by charlesmorris＠direcway.com

Thanks to W. Donzelli's post, I just drove 4 hrs. (each way, 40-50 mph wind gusts!) to Little Rock AR and rescued the following items: DEC 11-40(?) open rack with two huge fans, an RL02 drive complete with pack, a PDP-11/03-L and a PDP-11/24. Both 11's appear to be complete and fully populated with cards (I know something about 8's but very little about 11's). Sadly, all the interface cables were cut/discarded during the salvage :( Anyhow I've got way too many projects already (including my PDP-8/A and currently nonworking RL02). I will probably keep the 11/03 for a "someday" project. Is anyone interested in the PDP-11/24? Make me an offer. I'll sell it reasonably priced to a good home. I can take some pics tomorrow. It's *really* heavy though so shipping might be expensive (from zip 65775). If no one here wants it, I'll put it on the bay, since the donor explicitly told me he wouldn't mind if I did. He just wanted to get it out of his garage... thanks Charles

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: removing parts from PCBs > From: William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:00:10 -0500 (EST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >I use a solder pot, filled, so the miniscus (sp?) allows me to just place >the board on the rim of the pot, and all the pads melt nicely. It took me >some time to fine tune the setup, but it works very well. I may never go >back to the torch. That is by far the best method and also excellent for board you really don't want to cook (as in ones you fix). I've used that trick on PCs I wanted that had bad DALLAS DS1287 clock/cmos chips. Its easier then to sand off the epoxy to access the dead battery for replacement. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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DEC "Junk" rescued

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

I thought the 11/24 was the 11/23 chipset (F-11) mated to Unibus rather than the Qbus. Allison > >Subject: RE: DEC "Junk" rescued > From: "Julian Wolfe" <fireflyst at earthlink.net> > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:08:34 -0600 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >11/24 is split I&D UNIBUS, right? If so, I'd like some details as to what >it's equipped with in the box. > >Thanks >Julian > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Charles >> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 6:05 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: DEC "Junk" rescued >> >> Thanks to W. Donzelli's post, I just drove 4 hrs. (each way, 40-50 >> mph wind gusts!) to Little Rock AR and rescued the following >> items: >> >> DEC 11-40(?) open rack with two huge fans, an RL02 drive complete >> with pack, a PDP-11/03-L and a PDP-11/24. >> >> Both 11's appear to be complete and fully populated with cards (I >> know something about 8's but very little about 11's). Sadly, all >> the interface cables were cut/discarded during the salvage :( >> >> Anyhow I've got way too many projects already (including my >> PDP-8/A and currently nonworking RL02). I will probably keep the >> 11/03 for a "someday" project. >> >> Is anyone interested in the PDP-11/24? Make me an offer. I'll sell >> it reasonably priced to a good home. I can take some pics >> tomorrow. It's *really* heavy though so shipping might be >> expensive (from zip 65775). If no one here wants it, I'll put it >> on the bay, since the donor explicitly told me he wouldn't mind if >> I did. He just wanted to get it out of his garage... >> >> thanks >> Charles >> > >

20 years, 9 months

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R-E 68000 PC articles that were mentioned

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

A while back the Radio-Electronics series of articles on making your own 68000-based PC was mentioned as a possible scan candidate. Anybody know what direction that went? I'd be interested in seeing them- I have 2 of the issues but not the whole set (bit before my time) On the same vein- I have a book called "Build your own Z-80 computer" by Steve Ciarcia. Is this the sort of thing that would have some interest in an e-version? Is there a fast way to scan bound materials without butchering them?

20 years, 9 months

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SN76477N

by yeyeshitozen＠yahoo.com

Hi, I'm just wondering where you bought your SN76477 chip? any info would be highly appreciated.i'm trying to build a noise maker. thanks! yeyeshito __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

20 years, 9 months

13
19
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8008?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: 8008? > From: "Jim Kearney" <jim at jkearney.com> > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:15:12 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >From: "Allison" <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> >> I have an 8008 and HDSP2132 (8 char version). Wire wrap and a software >> patch will have to do. > >Sounds like you're set, then! It's in the queue after an 1802 and 8048 project. >Yes. The use of supporting components a bit newer than the CPU made this >design possible. I was able to avoid a bus because the load on the CPU data >pins is much lower than the old banks of 1101's etc; and having RAM and Officially the bus load on the cpu is still high but past experience shows it works. Intel would have you believe the bus drive of the chip is near zero. Since I'd like to do IO I'll have to be aware of the bus load as I go but I dont expect to have problems. FYI: The clock circuit you used is almost exactly the one I did back in '74. Intel rep said "it might work but its out of spec.". Compared to the 4 one shots they show it was a vast improvement and lower parts count. I tried the oneshot deal and vowed never to go there again. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

I've seen several references to using torches to remove DIPs from PCBs. Are there any specific things to keep in mind to avoid heat damage &cet? Are you talking propane plumber's blowtorches?

20 years, 9 months

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8008?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: 8008? > From: "Jim Kearney" <jim at jkearney.com> > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:35:15 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> I reviewed my old BGMicro orders and found it to be LED1059, which >> is no longer available. > >There don't seem to be any ready sources for this particular display, but I >found that Osram apparently took over Siemens' opto products and *still* >lists an very similar device, the PD353x series: > >http://catalog.osram-os.com/catalogue/catalogue.do?catGroupOid=000000000002… > >I should locate some of these and do a Tiny-8 PCB run, but I also am lacking >8008's ;-( > I have an 8008 and HDSP2132 (8 char version). Wire wrap and a software patch will have to do. The 8008 appeard in one place thats common the 11/34 KY11 programmers pannel. Possibly others. I may not duplicate the design exact;y as you did it. Rather than memory mapped I may implement IO ports. However looking at your design there there some design simplifications that hadn't occured to me last 8008 project (1974). It's pretty cool and saves a carload of chips. Most people back then were implementing multiple busses (address, ram data, IO in, IO out, interrupt instuction) and thats a lot of chips. The MCS-8 is a really good example of getting carried away with multiple busses. I hadn't looked at that chip in years and that was a different perspective. You could create a CPU, memory and IO card set. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Honeywell DSP-6 Last Call

by jim.walter＠btopenworld.com

Hi there, Do you know the model number or can you give me the part number of the CPU. Thanks, Jim.

20 years, 9 months

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PDP-8 OS/8 Disk Image Problems

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

Hi, I used the following entry lines and successfully copied DECtapes. set df enable att dt0 os8.tu56 att dt1 os8drv.tu56 att ..... (what ever other drive you use) Then it is striaght forward: boot dt0, and access dt1. The "tape names" (os8.tu56 and os8drv.tu56) should be substituted by the names of the files that you use, of course :-) I don't know much of pdp8's, there are others that know a lot more! success, - Henk, PA8PDP > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Madcrow Maxwell > Sent: dinsdag 15 november 2005 22:48 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-8 OS/8 Disk Image Problems > > I've recently started to play with the PDP-8 using the > excellent SIMH emulator and I've come across a problem: none > of the PDP-8 OS/8 disk images that I've found seem to allow > me to use DECtapes. As all the games I've found (mostly > smallish BASIC programs) seem to come on DECtape/DECtape > images. Does anybody know where to find a disk with proper > drivers. I tried to rebuild the OS, but BUILD couldn't find > the proper drivers either. > > Actually, I have my doubts as to whether BASIC even works, as > it seems to not even want to run the little > > 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD." > 20 END > > example that I cooked up. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 9 months

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Panel question

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

> --- On Tue 11/15, Wolfe, Julian < ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU > wrote: > From: Wolfe, Julian [mailto: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU] > To: info-pdp11 at village.org, cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:28:40 -0600 > Subject: Panel question > > I'm trying to mount the front panel on my 11/34, but I've run > into aproblem: I have no mounting brackets. What do the > brackets look like formmounting to a BA11-K, and does anyone > here have any extras?Secondly, was there a H964x style beige > panel with black vents that would goon the non-covered > portion of the 11/34a's BA11-K? I seem to rememberseeing > that sort of thing on some 11/44s and 11/24s.Again, any > advice would be appreciated. > > ------------ > > I thought I had an extra, and was going to look at it. Seems > like I must have sent it off to someone. It's not like the > older clip on panel types. It is screwed to a bracket. If > no one else comes forward I'll remove the one from my 11/34 and look. > > As to the other panel, mine is simply a 1/2 DEC black panel > screwed in from the front above the programmer panel. > Tim R As far as I can remember (at work now) they have the following shape, the bracket is drawn in front of the box. The "s" is a hole in the bracket. The flange (at both sides) at the front side of the box has also a (bigger) hole. You put in a screw (s) from the rear side of the flange, through the bracket and tighten the screw on the front panel. See the figure. F=front panel, B=bracket, BA=box. Making such a bracket from a strip of aluminium should not be too difficult. F B BA ___ __ ____ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | this part is | | / / | the BA11K box | | | | | / | s | | | <---screw from here | | | | | | | \ \ | | | | | | | | | | | \____| |_| |_____ - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 9 months

1
0
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PDP-11/73 booting!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 22:32:43 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Yes, you're right. I did type DL not RL. That was a typo in my >message. Yes, the DL.SYS driver is on the boot disk (RX02), there are >no empty slots between the CPU and the RL controller. The slots are >filled as follows: > >KDJ11-A >MSV11-LK >MSV11-LK >National Semiconductor memory board (1mb) >RLV12 >M8029 (RX02 controller) >MXV11 I'd pull the MXV11 and the National card them bump every one up. >No fault light (and it isn't burned out), the white load light (with >the "0" on it) lights. Thats a good sign. >So, I suppose that means that the cables are probably bad? BTW, I >have the cable plugged into the top connector on the RL01 and the >terminator on the bottom. Is that correct? I don't think which is which matters as it's a parallel pass through and the drive select plug is the determining factor. >From RT-11 a show dev: or Resorc /A Should list the devices the system knows of. It may be possible that one of the cards is not passing intgrant. If the system doesnt show the RL02 either grant chain is broken or the controller is not there. Which controller? Two board set or later single board m8061 one? The controller (RLV12) must be address at 17774400 (q22), 774400 (q18). The vector is 160. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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PDP-11/73 booting!

by dbetz＠xlisper.mv.com

I got my PDP-11/73 booting by connecting an RX02 drive to the system and using an RT-11 boot floppy. I've convinced myself that the 1.5mb of memory (two M8059s and a third party card) works and that the KDJ11-A CPU is working as well as the multi-function boot card (M8047) and the RX02 drive and controller (M8029). Unfortunately, I still can't access the RL01 drive. RT-11 sees the controller card but if I type "DIR RL0:", there is no indication that the drive is even accessed. The disk seems to spin up and the ready light comes on on the drive but I don't seem to be able to access the drive from RT-11. I've also tried using a scratch pack and typing "INIT DL0:" but that doesn't work either. Does anyone have any idea what might cause this kind of behavior? Also, can anyone make me a bootable RX02 disk with the RL01 diagnostics on it? I can supply the blank disk? Thanks, David

20 years, 9 months

1
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What's an MB8907?

by cclist＠sydex.com

I discovered a couple of these (ceramic carrier, 16 pin DIP) Fujitsu MB8907F. My databooks and an online search shows nothing. What is it? Cheers, Chuck

20 years, 9 months

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Panel question

by tradde＠excite.com

--- On Tue 11/15, Wolfe, Julian < ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU > wrote: From: Wolfe, Julian [mailto: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU] To: info-pdp11 at village.org, cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:28:40 -0600 Subject: Panel question I'm trying to mount the front panel on my 11/34, but I've run into aproblem: I have no mounting brackets. What do the brackets look like formmounting to a BA11-K, and does anyone here have any extras?Secondly, was there a H964x style beige panel with black vents that would goon the non-covered portion of the 11/34a's BA11-K? I seem to rememberseeing that sort of thing on some 11/44s and 11/24s.Again, any advice would be appreciated. ------------ I thought I had an extra, and was going to look at it. Seems like I must have sent it off to someone. It's not like the older clip on panel types. It is screwed to a bracket. If no one else comes forward I'll remove the one from my 11/34 and look. As to the other panel, mine is simply a 1/2 DEC black panel screwed in from the front above the programmer panel. Tim R _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web!

20 years, 9 months

1
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Panel question

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

I'm trying to mount the front panel on my 11/34, but I've run into a problem: I have no mounting brackets. What do the brackets look like form mounting to a BA11-K, and does anyone here have any extras? Secondly, was there a H964x style beige panel with black vents that would go on the non-covered portion of the 11/34a's BA11-K? I seem to remember seeing that sort of thing on some 11/44s and 11/24s. Again, any advice would be appreciated Julian

20 years, 9 months

1
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Panel question

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

I'm trying to mount the front panel on my 11/34, but I've run into a problem: I have no mounting brackets. What do the brackets look like form mounting to a BA11-K, and does anyone here have any extras? Secondly, was there a H964x style beige panel with black vents that would go on the non-covered portion of the 11/34a's BA11-K? I seem to remember seeing that sort of thing on some 11/44s and 11/24s. Again, any advice would be appreciated Julian

20 years, 9 months

1
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Possible regulator problem in 11/34

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

Well, I was working on my 11/34 last night, and I noticed when I flipped it on its side that the power regulator H745 does not have its red light on. Does that mean the other two H744s are problematic, or does it mean that the H745 is the problem, or is this all normal? Opinions please! :) Thanks Julian

20 years, 9 months

2
1
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DEC RK07K DC disk drive packs

by ics65＠sbcglobal.net

Hello DEC community, How much of a market is there for sealed in box DEC RKO7K DC disk packs? Thanks, George Wiegand ICS65 at SBCglobal.net Vintage Data General Computer Enthusiast

20 years, 9 months

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PDP-8 OS/8 Disk Image Problems

by madcrow.maxwell＠gmail.com

I've recently started to play with the PDP-8 using the excellent SIMH emulator and I've come across a problem: none of the PDP-8 OS/8 disk images that I've found seem to allow me to use DECtapes. As all the games I've found (mostly smallish BASIC programs) seem to come on DECtape/DECtape images. Does anybody know where to find a disk with proper drivers. I tried to rebuild the OS, but BUILD couldn't find the proper drivers either. Actually, I have my doubts as to whether BASIC even works, as it seems to not even want to run the little 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD." 20 END example that I cooked up.

20 years, 9 months

1
0
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8008?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: 8008? > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:53:24 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>So what's an 8008 chip worth? I've got one that I don't need. I'll >>entertain reasonable offers. >> >>Cheers, >>Chuck >> >> >Well what does the buyer need it for? Most people here want it blinking >lights not collecting dust. In 1975 a candy bar was about 15 cents, >today it is >a $1.00 That is a about a 6:1 price change , so a $60 8008 could be up >to $360 for a fair market price today, how ever many people are use too >-- it is outdated >so carry it away for $1. Myself would not pay more than $100 considering >how easy it is possable to damage it. Damage it?? Those 10u PMOS devices are far more resiliant than current parts. Allison

20 years, 9 months

1
0
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8008?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: 8008? > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:34:22 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >So what's an 8008 chip worth? I've got one that I don't need. I'll >entertain reasonable offers. > >Cheers, >Chuck Last time I bought one they were $180 for the 10uS (-1) part. Thats was November of 1973. ;) By summer of 1976 that was down to $19.95. They are worth what people will pay now. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Possible regulator problem in 11/34

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

Well, I was working on my 11/34 last night, and I noticed when I flipped it on its side that the power regulator H745 does not have its red light on. Does that mean the other two H744s are problematic, or does it mean that the H745 is the problem, or is this all normal? Opinions please! :) Thanks Julian

20 years, 9 months

2
1
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Lights (was: Re: Smithsonian gets it wrong)

by ken＠seefried.com

From: "John Allain" <allain at panix.com> >>>>>>>>>So given the choice, what lighting *is* good? >>>> >>>> > >Natural white seems to be worse in traditional fluorescents, but newer >corrected bulbs are available. > >Expensive stores and some art galleries like to use high temperature point >sources, like 12V50w reflector lamps. They may be among the whitest, and >can be used either in quantity for an almost daylight look, or sparingly, to >allow the blinkenlights to be prominent. > For many requirements like this (aquariums, hydroponics, etc), the lighting of choice is high-Kelvin Metal-Halide lighting. With bulbs over 150W, you can get 10,000 K bulbs, and at 175W and above, you can get 14,000 K. Bulbs go to 1000W and more. All of these are very bright & very, very blue-white. If you are more interested in "natural Sun-like" spectrum, there are numerous choices in VHO florescent bulbs, again in the aquarium & hydroponics world. These are *totally* different than the florescent bulbs you get at the local hardware store. Pretty much anything you get at, say, Home Depot, even the "aquarium bulbs" or "grow bulbs", will be noticeably inferior from a spectrum perspective. Stick to the hydroponic or aquarium stores. Ken

20 years, 9 months

4
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Visual Technology - off brand

by billdeg＠degnanco.com

Visual Computer Inc. made the "Commuter" (model 1083), and this was a portable with an LCD display. Visual Technology, Inc. is a different computer company, and they made a model called the 1050. -Bill >This Company's products are also scarce on the web - maybe they were just >"another clone" (although luggable). A year or so ago I located a prior >employee who gave some background, including that he might still have >the schematics. They were made 1984-86. > >I've had no interest in the Visual 1083 I want to place, but I'm hoping >a touch of off-brand discussion might change that. > -- E N D --

20 years, 9 months

1
0
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Kilobaud & R-E

by dm561＠torfree.net

I've got an incomplete collection of 77-82 Kilobauds; what are you looking for? Also, someone was looking for the R-E 68000 articles; if you didn't find what you needed on the Web, any idea which issues they were in? mike ------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:39:18 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> ...Speaking of old stuff, who still has a library of Kilobaud from around 1976-1979 to research an article? Cheers, Chuck

20 years, 9 months

1
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removing parts from PCBs

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

>From: "Allison" <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> > >> >>Subject: removing parts from PCBs >> From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com >> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:31:31 -0600 >> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> >>I've seen several references to using torches to remove DIPs from PCBs. Are there any specific things to keep in mind to avoid heat damage? Are you talking propane plumber's blowtorches? > >Dang, thats one long line! > >Yes, work fast. > >Myself I torch the bottom and use a spring loaded chip extractor. >That and a pliers or tiny screwdriver to straighten any bent >pins keeping it in the board. > >Success rate to date is 99% (board was known bad before salvage). > >Allison Hi I've used peanut oil and a fry pan. Then wash the parts in detergent to remove the oil. You need to wear gloves and goggles as safety gear. Hot peanut oil in your eye is not something I'd like to even think about. Make sure that the assembler didn't bend the corner leads of the ICs. If they did, you'll need to straighten them before the oil, using a soldering iron. It just seems to me that the oil method is a little more controlled than a torch. Dwight

20 years, 9 months

5
5
0 0

9915A in a blinking decorative lights display

by vp＠cs.drexel.edu

http://www.series80.org/HP-9915A/blinkenlichts.html **vp

20 years, 9 months

2
1
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removing parts from PCBs

by marvin＠rain.org

A much better alternative to peanut oil is fusing or reflow oil used in the printed circuit industry (used most probably in the smaller shops.) It runs $84.30/gallon according to information on the DalPro website. While they seem to have the supplies necessary to make PCBs, their prices are ... high. I would try a local printed circuit manufacturer to see if I could get some their first. My guess is that it shouldn't be more than about $8.00/gallon. http://www.dalpro.net/Page.html BTW, peanut oil used to be used for reflow many many moons ago and was replaced at least 25 years ago with synthetic oils. > On 11/14/2005 at 9:32 AM Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > I've used peanut oil and a fry pan. Then wash the > >parts in detergent to remove the oil. You need to wear > >gloves and goggles as safety gear. Hot peanut oil > >in your eye is not something I'd like to even think about. > > Make sure that the assembler didn't bend the corner leads > >of the ICs. If they did, you'll need to straighten them > >before the oil, using a soldering iron. > > It just seems to me that the oil method is a little more > >controlled than a torch. > > That's downright scary--oil fires are nasty. And burns from oil that hot > (I've had them from cooking) take a long time to heal. > Is synthetic automotive oil flammable at desoldering temperatures? > > Cheers, > Chuck

20 years, 9 months

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B205 console replica on eBay

by wmaddox＠pacbell.net

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4792658721 --Bill

20 years, 9 months

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Ultrix on Simh

by williams.dan＠gmail.com

All this talk of Ultrix made me decide to give it a go. After wasting time and then working out none of the machines I have here support Ultrix, I decided Simh was the way to go. After a couple of hours of messing about and checking google, I discovered that Ultrix installs on RZ disks and Simh doesn't support them. Which is probably why the cd has been sitting in a box for a couple of years. About to give up I found a page which shows how to change the installation program to support RA disks. If anyone wants to give it a go : http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2004-November/001090.html It says it works on 4.3, but it worked on my 4.5 disk. It's installing now. Dan

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: removing parts from PCBs > From: Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:02:42 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > >I don't know what a solder pot is exactly, but at one Solder pot is a ceramic cup usually about 2" across and about 2" deep with a heating element around it. Filled with solder and the usual use is to tin stripped leads. >point I was contemplating fabricating a sort of U >shaped thing to bolt onto the end of a solder iron >(albeit a hefty one). Either sheet brass or copper >would suit the purpose. You can find that sort of >stuph at many hobby shops and even hardware stores >(look for a rack full of stuph with the name "K & S", >sheets, tubing, etc.) You would need a different >"thing" for each size chip you wanted to desolder. If >the ic is known bad, you don't have to worry about >cooking it, though you have to be careful with the >lans on the circuit board. I've done that, you really need a heavy heater to do the job and it's still possible to cook the part and or the board. I've been stripping boards and TV chassis (back when they were tube) for 40+ years. Allison > >--- William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> wrote: > >> > That is by far the best method and also excellent >> for board you really >> > don't want to cook (as in ones you fix). >> >> One of the tricks is to get a solder pot the right >> size - just big enough >> for a 40 pin DIP. >> >> William Donzelli >> aw288 at osfn.org >> >> > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. >http://farechase.yahoo.com

20 years, 9 months

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SunOS for SPARC 2

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Sun still has them(patches for SunOS)- just a bit difficult to get at http://access1.sun.com/patch.y2k/ will get you y2k and security patches back to "Solaris SPARC 1.0" as they call it I'm running 4.1.3_U1 with all patches-not on a public network- is that O.K.? What bennies are in 4.1.4?

20 years, 9 months

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FPGA VAX update, now DIY TTL computers

by henk.stegeman＠shell.com

Hi Jos, I fully agree with you. Building your own CPU is really an exciting project. I took me more then 3 months to debug my 110 TTL CPU with 256 words of micro code of 48 bits. See: http://www.anysystems.nl/hjs22.html for some pictures and the reference card. I build this CPU & IO unit in 1976. A liitle bit younger then the Elektor machine :-). Do you still have the Elektor machine ? Regards Henk Stegeman. Netherlands > > What surprises me about the home-built computers from scratch is the > lack > of imagination when it comes to architecture. Most are basically > one-address-cum-accumulator designs. It would seem that larger > register > files are much easier to build nowadays and would open up the door to > some > 2 and 3-address designs. The reason is the effort it takes...... Ask anybody who actually made a CPU ( I myself did a 12 bit TTL based, single address single accumulator machine). The real effort is actually building and debugging the unit. There is only so much time you have.... > > I've always thought that 24 bits is a nice word size for a small > computer. Much too big to actually build in TTL. In 1974 Elektor magazine started a series of DIY articles that described an extensible ( 12 bit or 16 bit width ) three address, clockless computer. TTL based, with a shiftregister based memory. (6 or 8 512x2 shiftregisters .) An expensive extra wasa 2102 based RAM. The machine did hardware multiply and divide + Instructions were build into the address map .i,e, address XX is the adder, adress yy is a shift and so on.. The start of this series actually predates the Mark8 computer ! Jos Dreesen

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs

by trag＠io.com

>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:03:39 -0800 >From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> >On 11/11/2005 at 8:31 PM compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > >Yes, I hold the board component-side down and flame it from above--a lot >of components will simply drop out of the board once the solder has >melted--do this out-of-doors as the fumes from the epoxy or phenolic can be >pretty noxious. Keep the flame moving. Sometimes just tapping the board >will cause quite a few components to to fall out. DIPs usually require a >pair of needle-nosed pliers or small screwdriver to remove. > >Some invert the arrangement and do it component side up with the fame from >below. I'm not convinced that one method is any better than the other. >An old propane barbeque grill might also be another approach. Another >might be to use a heat gun. I use the heat gun approach. I have a Milwaukee heat gun I bought at Home Depot with adjustable temperature from 100 - 1000 degrees F. I use something between 600 and 900 depending on my application. If I want to remove a component from a board and reuse the board, (e.g. remove soldered down PROM for reprogramming) I cover the surrounding components in modeling clay. This may or may not provide any protection from heat, but it does keep them from blowing away. The first time I tried desoldering with a heat gun, I found that all the surface mount passives (resistors & caps) surrounding the target chip were randomized. For big surface mount chips I like to use Chip Quik desoldering alloy, which will lower the melting point of the solder on the board. If I preapply Chip Quik, I can usually use the 600F setting for a minute or two to loosen a chip. I've successfully done this on chips as large as 208 pin QFPs. Jeff Walther

20 years, 9 months

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Software find

by williams.dan＠gmail.com

I got some interesting bits today : For the 380z Sbas, bcpl (4 disks), txed, zasm, cp/m 2.2 and 1.4 and Wordstar. For the Nimbus Windows 1.01 (Which I've never seen), write 2.0, various version of RM basic and Msdos 3.05. I'd like to see windows booted up the earliest version I've seen is 2.x (can't remember). Dan

20 years, 9 months

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semi-homemade micro

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: semi-homemade micro > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:04:38 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > >>All the talk about building a mini from TTL got me thinking about homebuild micros, and what one would look like if I decided to build one (been playing with my IMSAI, too, which probably accounts for some of it) >> >Woodelf mutters: >The biggest thing I can think of is you only have two sizes of >computer today ... 16 bits or 32 bits of addressing. Uhm, what about 12bit[OS8 srt-8]? There are few othter word lenths than those that are not unobtainium. >You can only get the 16 machines easly and resonable source of a OS. Explain that from your perspective. >The 68000 yes still works best with 64k addressing. >Oddly the only micocomputer chip I like ( other than the 6800/6809) is >National Semiconductor's 16032 is another chip that you could never get. T-11 regular instruction set of the PDP-11. Not too hard to find. Z8001 and Z8002s I have a few of. Z280, theres an interesting varient of Z80 with 24bit MMU that looks like the DEC PDP11 MMU (even I&D!). So you have to be a bit more descriptive. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs

by ken＠seefried.com

From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> On 11/14/2005 at 9:32 AM Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>> I've used peanut oil and a fry pan. > > > >That's downright scary--oil fires are nasty. And burns from oil that hot >(I've had them from cooking) take a long time to heal. > >I've heard plenty about the big 30-quart propane-fired turkey fryers >catching fire. I'm not so sure that I'd like to try your method, although >it sounds interesting. > Indeed. It's a clever idea, to be sure. For me, I've spent a good bit of time around everything from pans to very large buckets of boiling oil (wife is from New Orleans, I had to learn to keep her happy). Having had to triage a folks who weren't very experienced with oil (hint: your turkey, catfish, etc., should patted as dry as possible and MUST NOT STILL BE FROZEN...and the flame does not have to be maxed out), I would suggest sticking to heat guns and propane torches...at least when they burn you you can drop them and the worst of it stops. That's not true with oil..it really likes to stick to you and everyone else in the room. Messing around with hot oil if you're not an expert and there are other options is *not* my first choice. YMMV... Ken P.S. - Watching someone drop a mostly frozen turkey in a vat of vigourously boiling peanut oil was a deeply disturbing experience...

20 years, 9 months

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Trouble with RL02.

by charlesmorris＠direcway.com

I'm trying to get my RL02 working with my 8/A. Thanks Tim R. for lending me a cable and terminator! After finding a cold solder joint at the 8.2 MHz oscillator on the RL8A, I thought I had it licked... the master clock would start and stop if I pressed the oscillator's case. Now there is a steady 4.100136 MHz clock at the ribbon cable connector to the logic board inside the drive. The power supply voltages on the board are all within spec. The problem is that not only does the Fault light still stay on, the ready light (that illuminates the "Unit 0" plug) is also on. According to the manuals this is not supposed to be possible since the ready light only comes on when track 0 has been found, and the heads are still locked home :( ??? The Load button has a very dim bulb, near end of life, but it does light after the slow 15-second disk rotation. Pushing the Load button does nothing (disk does not spin, Fault and Ready still lit). Examination of the state machine lines shows that it is in state 0 (Load Cart) but the input to it (DL5 ERR STATE COMD L) is also asserted. When turning the spindle by hand (from the access port underneath the drive, with a cartridge in place) I can get a signal of at most 0.2 volt p-p. This doesn't produce any pulses from pin 1 of the LM393 amplifier. If I ground the "Raw Sec Pls Return" then I can get a very noisy pulse train. When it's "inching" in startup mode it is maybe 10 mv p-p which is way below the spec in the manual and nothing comes out of the amp. Is this sensor hall-effect or is it just a coil? DEC went out of their way to run 5 volts to it, so I assume it's a transistorized unit? More importantly, anyone got a spare? :) thanks Charles

20 years, 9 months

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Seeking to buy early 4004, 8008 and 8080

by vcf＠siconic.com

I'm seeking early Intel 4004, 8008 and 8080 chips. The earliest runs had no date codes, so I'd like specimens with no date codes which will at least confirm they are from the 1971-1974 timeframe (Intel began stamping chips with date codes in 1974). This is for a project I'm working on, and I am only interested in a sale (sorry, no trades). If you want me to read your message, please send replies directly to me. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

20 years, 9 months

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semi-homemade micro

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: semi-homemade micro > From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net> > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:57:08 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Brad Parker wrote: > >> Jim Battle wrote: >> >>>The original PDP-8 took 10 clocks at 1 MHz to execute one instruction >> >> >> really? >> >> I'm probably off, but at a cocktail party I would would have said that >> some instructions took 8 clocks (f0,f1,f2,f3,e0,e1,e2,e3) and some took >> 12 (f0-f3, d0-d3, e0-d3). >> >> That's according to a recent look at the "blue book", but I may have >> misunderstood. I did write up some verilog which uses those states and >> it seems to be (mostly) correct, but it's done all debugged yet. >> >> -brad >> >> > >I'm no PDP-8 expert. My source was this web page: > >http://fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wikipedia/PDP-8 > >"The PDP-8 was a 12-bit computer with 4096 words of memory. It had only eight >instructions, one full register, the accumulator (AC), and a single-bit >register, the link (L) bit. The machine operated at a clock rate of 1 MHz, and >took 10 clocks for each instruction, so that it ran at 0.1MIPS." That just doesn't sound right. The 8E which I'm most familiar with is considerably faster than that. Though the 8S would be slower. I dont consider wikipedia expert here. Doug Jones and a slew of others have far more complete and accurate sites. Though the DEC handbooks are not to be trifled with either. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure

by tequilizer＠gmx.net

I recently acquired a HP 9845C option 280 (was looking for it for a really long time). The machine is in an overall good condition, however it hangs during memory test ("MEMORY TEST IN PROGRESS"), even after cleaning all board connectors, resocketing all ROMs & repeated control-stop's. Before entering nirvana the printer outputs a couple of memory addresses. Although lots of defects may be responsible, I assume there is a combination of both a bad RAM chip and a ROM failure, since a RAM defect alone should (?) not crash the system during the test. The printout looks like this: 000000 100112 052525 000000 110112 052525 000000 120112 052525 000000 130112 052525 I guess the first number is the block ID, the next is the memory address within the block, and the last number is the test pattern, each in octal representation. Does anyone have an idea - how to really interpret the memory test printouts and - how to check the ROMs for bad data? Maybe there is anyone out there who did the job to read out the contents of his 9845 ROMs (they are all in sockets) for a direct comparison. There is a 98407A memory option installed, and, of course, a bit slice LPU. So the ROMs work out as: PPU assembly: CE1 LB: 1818-1591B CE1 UB: 1818-1592B CE2 LB: 1818-0846D CE2 UB: 1818-0841D CE3 LB: 1818-0837D CE3 UB: 1818-0833D CE4 LB: 1818-1898A CE4 UB: 1818-1899A LPU assembly: CE1 LB: 1818-1506A CE1 UB: 1818-1502A CE2 LB: 1818-1507A CE2 UB: 1818-1503A CE3 LB: 1818-1508A CE3 UB: 1818-1504D CE4 LB: 1818-1509A CE4 UB: 1818-1505A Most of them schould be the same as in an 9845B model 200 system. Thanks for your help Ansgar

20 years, 9 months

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Zapping Laptop batteries

by wittkamper＠cox.net

Hello, Saw your post on cctech mailing list about zapping laptop batteries. I have an HP laptop battery that I would like to try to zap. Can you give me details on how it's done? Thanks, Andy

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs ?JUNK MAIL? 4

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: removing parts from PCBs ?JUNK MAIL? 4 > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:35:40 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 11/14/2005 at 12:05 PM Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>Hi >> I don't recommend using an open flame with the oil. >>I used an electric fry pan. I don't think peanut >>oil has as low a flash point as many other oils. > >I believe that peanut oil has a flash point around 600F; 60/40 solder flows >at about 370F, so there's a pretty good safety margin, but the oil will >start smoking at temperatures around 450F. > >Silicone oil might be a better choice (it's used a lot in commercial heat >baths), but it's not inexpensive. Solder and silicone oils are bad juju. That would result in a solderability problem. Myself the oil/fry pan is just duplication a solder pot with a meniscus (sp??) with the handicap of the oils nasty behavour and post removal cleaning needs. The solder pot is somewhat safer if attention is paid to spilling. It also has usefulness in reloading the board if needed (heat and drop part in holes). Allison

20 years, 9 months

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removing parts from PCBs ?JUNK MAIL? 4

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

Hi I don't recommend using an open flame with the oil. I used an electric fry pan. I don't think peanut oil has as low a flash point as many other oils. That is why it was selected by someone before me for this purpose. It holds up to higher temperatures than most oils. Of course, one should do this outside in a safe area. One should have a CO2 extinguisher for oil fires or one rated for them. Don't spray with water if a fire starts. It would be better to just let it burn up. I used some tongs and screw drivers to remove the parts. I generally cut the boards into smaller pieces and don't completely submerge parts in oil. I watch the temperature to make sure it is just hot enough to melt solder but not hotter. As was mentioned. The oil is really nasty and popping parts out of boards always splatters some. I used both a full face shield, goggles, gloves and covering for my arms. I use the same stuff I use for working with a large solder pot that we used at a previous company to solder PC boards by dip soldering. The oil is a little nastier because to will penatrate cloth easily. Solder will also if it is moving fast enough but at least it doesn't just soak though. Dwight >From: "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 11/14/2005 at 9:32 AM Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >> >>>I've used peanut oil and a fry pan. Then wash the >>>parts in detergent to remove the oil. You need to wear >>>gloves and goggles as safety gear. Hot peanut oil >>>in your eye is not something I'd like to even think about. >>>Make sure that the assembler didn't bend the corner leads >>>of the ICs. If they did, you'll need to straighten them >>>before the oil, using a soldering iron. >>>It just seems to me that the oil method is a little more >>>controlled than a torch. >> >> >> That's downright scary--oil fires are nasty. And burns from oil that hot >> (I've had them from cooking) take a long time to heal. > >True, but it is no less risky than normal cooking with oil - plus it'd >give a much more even heat than a torch. Might give that a try sometime. >Cooking oil is probably cheaper than torch gas too :) > >My only caution would be that gold/ceramic ICs tend to have markings >printed on with an ink that detergent will remove quite nicely (made >that mistake once when cleaning a PCB, won't be doing it again :) Other >components seem to survive such cleanings quite happily though. > >cheers > >Jules >

20 years, 9 months

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semi-homemade micro

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: semi-homemade micro > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:14:09 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Don North wrote: > >> Doing some math, 2GHz/100KHz is 2000MHz/0.1MHz or 20,000. At 6X the >> cycle count is then 20K/6 = 3333 (not 3.3M). >> One would think it takes well less than 3000 X86 instructions to >> emulate a PDP-8 instruction (assuming one instr per clock). >> >I would say it takes a few instructions since you have to mask for 12 >bit words, and remember the PC is running windows and all >sorts of other stuff. The point is the emulation is at least 6x faster >or more compared to >the original. Faster may not allways be better for emulation. With a machine wider than 12 bits the mask is a single instruction AND. The content of the subfields are more difficult than that but most of x86s handle bits fairly well. Allison

20 years, 9 months

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semi-homemade micro

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: semi-homemade micro > From: Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net> > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:33:01 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >woodelf wrote: > >.... >> Having got a new PC ... 2 GHZ??? who knows the real speed. >> I have tried Spare time gizmos - pdp 8 emulator ( A minor bug >> -- with windows how do you get the bell to sound ?). >> I was running some sort of diagnostics and had the RTC displayed >> and for about 10 minutes of real time, the clock advanced a hour. >> That must be at least 6x faster than the real thing on this computer. > >If a 2 GHz (give or take) x86 CPU emulates a pdp 8 at 6x, it means either the >code is inefficient, or the code contains a speed regulator that doesn't work >properly. It's inefficient, there was no goal to be efficient only useful and interesting. >The original PDP-8 took 10 clocks at 1 MHz to execute one instruction, a 2 GHz >CPU has 20 million cycles to interpret one instruction. So at 6x realtime, the >program is using 3.2 million cycles to interpret one instruction. An 8e series was around 1.5uS core cycle time and some instructions took a few cycles. However it's timing at the macro level is easy. FETCH, execute as needed. So to fetch a 12bit word and decide one of 8 major actions is pretty light on code to do. The next step execute is tempered by addressing but thats a minor calculation. OPR instructions you need more decisions and they have a distinct sequence. Then the IOT, again it's all decided by the device but for codes like 6000Q-6007Q and a few others the path is already set. EMA adds overhead in all cases. >Most likely speed and efficiency weren't goals of the emulator, so I bring this >up not to discredit the program's author but rather to say: don't use that data >point as anything but a lower limit on what kind of horsepower it would take to >use a micro to emulate a PDP-8. I imagine an AVR device at 20-40 MHz should be >able to emulate a PDP-8 at real time. That may be possible. Keep in mind this type of emulation is almost like building a microcode sequencer. An alternate approach is a more hardware (ACC, Link, MQ, MAR, IR ALU and shifter) and use a micro like 8048(or whatever) to controls the loads and all and not execute arithmetic logical or register ops in the micro. Speed there could exceed the 6100/6120 series cmos parts as the micro is decoding instructions and controling events rather than calculating. the differnce is your approaching the real thing hardware wise but leaving out a lot of control logic (sequential or microded hardware). Allison

20 years, 9 months

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Ultrix for DECstations

by waisun.chia＠gmail.com

Hello, Anybody have a ISO copy of the last version of Ultrix (4.5?) for the DECstation 500/2xx ? Somehow NetBSD isn't satisfying enough.. :-)

20 years, 9 months

10
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R-E 68000 PC articles

by paulrsm＠buckeye-express.com

The Radio-Electronics articles were written by Peter Stark. His web site has pretty much the same information that was in the articles. See http://www.users.cloud9.net/~stark/ and click on the "PT68K" and "68000 Hardware Course" links. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA

20 years, 9 months

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(pdp8) anyone assemble focal on {u,li}nix?

by brad＠heeltoe.com

Has anyone successfully assembled pdp-8 focal with one of the unix pal's? I was fooling around and grabbed the focal sources and pal. I had to fix a few minor things but I got it to assemble. But it doesn't run. Just curious if anyone else had tried this. I suppose I could fire up tss/8 and run pald :-) Does tss/8 run on any of the emulators? (but then, hmm.. how to get the output back off the virtual disk) ok, os/8 might be a better choice... is focal known to build cleanly there? -brad

20 years, 9 months

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