- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:43:05 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/15/2005 at 9:52 AM Allison wrote: > >>All it took was a 8bit/16bit trnaslation usinga pair of latches >>and some buffers. the only part of IDE thats actually 16bits >>wide is data transfers, the registers are bytes. The MFM >>controllers of the time had the same register layout. The >>WD1003 was likely the best known ISA16 (WD1002 was the ISA8 >>version) controller for MFM and it's just like talking to >>an IDE drive. > >Quite a number of the early IDE drives would also support 8 bit data >transfers if IOCS16- wasn't pulled low. Somewhere on the web, there's a >site from someone who's compiled a list of these. Many early sound cards >included an extra IDE port for the purpose of hooking up a CD drive. List them, please. I've found only two flavors of 3.5" IDE from WD and thats it. Best I've seen is it was spec'd in but almost never implmented. I have a large (n>20) selection of 500mb and smaller down to 20mb IDE drives and it's amazing so few that support 8bit data. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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HP64000 Hardware, Software, Manuals Available

by Pat_Fitzpatrick＠pmc-sierra.com

Hi List, Sorry for the long post. My insurance settlement (from a basement flood) is FINALLY settled and I'm having a massive pre-Christmas inventory reduction. I have a whole bunch of HP64000 Logic Development System parts that need new homes (see lists below). No hard drive, thoguh -- which is why I'm getting rid of the system. It's all from the early/mid 1980s and was pretty cool at the time. Actually, some of it still is!!! I belileve that it's all in good working condition (at least there were no problems last time it was used -- though that was a couple of years ago for most of it. No guarantees, though.). There are also a couple of bags of miscellaneous cables etc. and a few boxes of floppies available to whoever wants most of the hardware. I'm located in Saskatoon, SK, Canada so shipping on the mainframes (or massive boxes of manuals) might get expensive. I'm willing to crate and ship if required -- though it might take a few days... Any and all offers (of $$$ or just good homes) would be appreciated. Thanks, Pat Manuals Owner's Manual 7941 and 7945 Disc Drive -- September 1984 (07940-90901) Site Environmental Requirements for Disk/Tape Drives -- August 1983 (5955-3456) Model 64100A Mainframe Service Manual -- February 1983 (64100-90910) - 2 copies Model 64151A Emulation Memory Controller -- May 1982 (64151-90901) Model 64155A Wide Address Memory Controller -- June 1981 (64155-90901) Model 64161A/126A/163A Emulation Memory -- July 1983 (64161-90901) Model 64161A/126A/163A Emulation Memory -- January 1984 (64161-90901) Model 64191A 6805 Emulator Controller -- January 1983 (64191-90901) Model 64192A 6804 R/U Emulator Pod -- January 1983 (64192-90901) Emulator/Analyzer 6805P -- April 1983 (64193-90903) Model 64200A Emulator/Analyzer 8080/8085 -- April 1983 (64200-90908) Model 64201A 8080/85 Emulator Control Board -- July 1983 (64200-90909) Model 64203A 8085 Emulation Pod -- May 1982 (64203-90902) Model 64214A 6809 Emulator Control Board -- March 1983 (64214-90901) Model 64215/64216 Emulator/Analyzer 6809/6809E -- September 1982 (64215-90903) Model 64215A 6809 Emulator Pod -- July 1983 (64215-90902) Model 64261A 8048 Emulator Controller -- August 1982 (64261-90901) Model 64261A Emulator /Analyzer 8048 -- July 1983 (64261-90903) Model 64262A 8048 Emulator Pod -- December 1981 (64262-90901) Model 64263A 8951 Emulator Control Card -- April 1984 (64263-90901) Model 64264A 8051 Emulator/Analyzer Reference Manual -- May 1984 (64264-09091) Model 64264A 8051 Emulator Pod -- April 1984 (64264-90902) Model 64302A Wide Logic Analyzer -- May 1982 (64302-90902) - 2 copies Model 64304A Emulation Bus Preprocessor -- October 1983 (64304-90902) Model 64310A Software Performance Analyzer -- March 1983 (64310-90901) Software Performance Analyzer -- April 1983 (64310-90902) Model 64620A Logic State/Software Analyzer Reference Manual November 1983 (64620-90903) Model 64621A State Analysis Control Board -- June 1983 (64621-90903) Model 64622A 40 Channel State Acquisition Board -- August 1983 (64622-90902) Model 64304A Emulation Bus Preprocessor -- October 1983 (64304-90902) PROM Programmer Reference Manual -- August 1982 (64500-90909) Model 64500S Positive PROM Programmer -- October 1982 (64500-90910) Model 64601A Timing Analysis Control Board -- October 1982 (64601-90904) Model 64601A Logic Timing Analyzer Reference Manual -- July 1983 (64601-90905) - 2 copies Model 64602A Timing Acquisition Board -- November 1982 (64602-90902) Model 64502A Positive PROM Programmer Module -- January 1981 (64502-90903) Model 64604A Timing Analysis Probe -- October 1982 (64604-90902) Model 64515C PROM Programmer Module -- July 1983 (64515-90903) Model 64620S Logic State/Software Analyzer Reference Manual -- March 1984 (64620-90905) Model 64650A General Purpose Preprocessor -- October 1983 (64650-90902) - 2 copies Model 64941A Flexible Disk (Floppy) Drive Controller -- April 1983 (64941-90902) - 2 copies Flexible Disk Drive Reference Manual -- January 1983 (64941-90905) C/64000 Compiler Reference Manual -- February 1983 (64800-90907) Pascal/64000 Compiler Reference Manual -- June 1982 (64800-90908) - 2 copies Pascal/64000 Reference Manual -- January 1894 (64800-90909) Model 64810A Pascal/64000 Compiler Supplement 8085 -- October 1983 (64810-90902) Pascal/64000 Compiler Supplement 6809 -- February 1983 (64813-90903) Model 64822AF/AT C/64000 Compiler Supplement 6809 Family -- May 1985 (64822-90901) Assembler Supplement 6805 / 6809 -- July 1983 (64844-09094) - 2 copies Model 64845A Assembler Supplement MC68000 -- February 1983 (64845-90903) Model 64855A Assembler Supplement 8051 -- December 1980 (64855-90902) Model 64941A Flexible Disk Drive Reference Manual -- January 1984 (64941-90906) Model 64100AF/AT System Overview -- February 1982 (64980-90912) - 2 copies Measurement System Reference Manual -- May 1982 (64980-90922) Model 64100AF/AT Measurement System Reference Manual -- July 1985 (64980-90922) System Software Reference Manual -- January 1983 (64980-90928) Installation and Configuration Reference Manual -- July 1983 (64980-90929) - 2 copies Editor Manual -- January 1984 (64980-90930) Editor Manual -- March 1985 (64980-90930) File Format Reference Manual -- May 1985 (64980-90933) System Software Reference Manual -- May 1985 (64980-90934) Terminal Mode Operating Manual -- January 1985 (64980-90935) Emulator / Internal Analysis 8-bit Reference Manual -- September 1981 (64980-90996) Assembler/Linker Reference Manual -- July 1983 (64980-90997) - 3 copies Assembler Supplement 8048 Series -- April 1980 (no P/N - photocopy of manual) Software (5-1/4 floppies) 64100-12036 REV 2346A DISK FORMAT, FIX, TEST (1 OF 3) OPERATING SYSTEM (2 OF 3) OPERATING SYSTEM (3 OF 3) 64192-12002 REV 2309A 6805 R/U&P Emulation (1 disk) 64215-12006 REV 2316A 6809 EMULATION 64262-12003 REV 2320 33283 8048 EMULATION (1 disk) 64264-12000 REV 2417A 8051 EMULATOR (1 disk) 64304-12001 REV 2350A EBPP PV & INVERSE ASMBS (1 disk) 64304-12002 REV 2420A EBPP PV (1 disk) 64500-12003 REV 2329 33383 PROM PROGRAMMER (1 disk) 64600-12003 REV 2326A TIMING (2 disks) 64620-12005 REV 2350A STATE (2 disks) 64620-12006 REV 2421A STATE (2 disks) 64810-12009 REV 2420A PASCAL COMP 8080/8085 (2 disks) 64813-12007 REV 2419A PASC_COMP_6809 (2 disks) 64822-12005 REV 1.05 6809 C COMPILER (2 disks) 64840-12009 REV 2234A 8080/5 ASSEMBLER/LINKER (1 disk) 64844-12009 REV 2315A 6805/9 ASSEMBLER/LINKER (1 disk) 64846-12005 REV 2219 28782 8048 FAMILY ASSEMBLER (1 disk) 64855-12003 REV 2234A 8051 ASSEMBLER/LINKER (1 disk) 8085 Software for 64K (handwritten label -- copy of original disk???) All software also recorded on tape cartridge for 7912 disk/tape drive Hardware 64100A Mainframe w/ 400W Power Supply S/N 2336A 04994 64100A Mainframe w/ 400W Power Supply S/N 2336A 06404 Boards 64151A Static RAM Control Board (2 boards) 64155A Wide Memory Address Control Board 64162A 64K RAM Board (2 boards) 64191A 6805 Emulator Control Board 64201A 8080/8085 Emulator Control Board 64214A 6809 Emulator Control Board 64261A 8048 Control and Emulator Boards (2 board set) 64263A 8051 Emulator Control Board 64302A WD Anzlyzer Board (2 boards) 64304A Emulation Bus Preprocessor Board 64310A Software Performance Analyzer Board 64501A PROM Programmer Board 64601A Timing Analyzer Control Board 64602A Timing Analyzer Board 64621A State Analyzer Control Board 64633A State Analyzer 40 Channel Board 64941A Floppy Disk Control Board (2 boards) Pods etc, 64192A 6805 Emulator Probe 64203A 8085 Emulator Probe 64215A 6809 Emulator Probe 64262A 8048 Emulator Probe 64264A 8051 Emulator Probe 64502A PROM Prog Module (Intel 2716, 2758. TI 2516, 2532) 64509A PROM Prog Module (Intel 2732, 2732A) 64515C PROM Prog Module (Intel 2764, 27128, 27256. TI 2564) 64604A 8 Channel Timing Pod (with 7 leads)

20 years, 8 months

1
0
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:35:50 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >Or do like I did in the original portable unit - put on a 6845 and do your >> >own video display. >> > >> > >> > >> No way that would work, as I don't have a TTL level monitor here, or a >> real keyboard... > >Well, you could make them!. For the monitor, convert a portable TV (I >wonder if those little 5" B&W TVs that seem to be available everwhere can >be turned into something useful. I can't believe they're that complicated >inside...). For the keyboard, either pull apart a PC keyboard and use the >swithc matrix, or make an interface between the PC keyboard (PS/2 type >port, I guess) and the rest of the system You can find PC keyboards with 8048/9 or 8051 and put a reporgramed MPU in. The reprogram can be done one of two ways, disable the internal rom and piggy back a LS373 and 2716 or use the 87xx eprom part. An those small B&W TVs are very modifyable, though at 5" 80char lines are going to be tiny. There's at least one person out there that did it. Or find a old HERC compatable (9pin) monochrome PC display even when not working they are easy to fix. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Data seps for FDC

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Data seps for FDC > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:54:41 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/15/2005 at 8:33 AM Allison wrote: > >>Anyone that needs info on how to build a data sep for the 765 for any >>data rate let me know direct. I have scanned relevent parts of two NEC >>Apnotes with the info needed. I do not have a web site where I can >>post them. They are fairly large .JPG. > >Are WD9216's that hard to come by? 8 pins, no waiting. > >Cheers, >Chuck Generally yes. there is some NOS around. For those that can't find it or don't want it there are many ways arount it. Me I ahve a few 9229s that do all clock generation and a few custom gate arrays that do 9229 plus all the decode and drive interface for 765. So it's not an issue for me. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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[UK - East Midlands / East Anglia] Molecular Computer Rescue

by john.vc＠btinternet.com

Hi, I would like to find a good home for a Molecular M200 multicomputer. This is a multiuser system from the late 70s early 80s, and I understand it was based on Z80 cards dedicated to each user, sharing via a bus a hard drive and floppy drive for data and program storage. It is roughly 70cm tall, 30cm wide and 60cm deep and weighs about 60kg. This relic doesn't work, and it is likely that the hard drive has failed. If you are within the area north of the M25, East of the M1 and south of Peterborough (preferably Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Essex or Suffolk) and can give this box some TLC please e-mail me. Regards, John

20 years, 8 months

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Data seps for FDC

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Anyone that needs info on how to build a data sep for the 765 for any data rate let me know direct. I have scanned relevent parts of two NEC Apnotes with the info needed. I do not have a web site where I can post them. They are fairly large .JPG. Allison

20 years, 8 months

2
1
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WordPerfect for DOS 5.1

by r_a_feldman＠hotmail.com

WordPerfect used a separate program called Convert.exe to translate other formats. The version with WP 5.1 can translate to WP from: Revisable-Form-Text (IBM DCA) Final-Form-Text (IBM DCA) Navy DIF WordStar 3.3 Multimate Advantage II Seven-bit Transfer WordPerfect 4.2 Mail Merge to WP Secondary Merge Word 4.0 DisplayWrite It can also translate from WP to: Revisable-Form-Text (IBM DCA) Final-Form-Text (IBM DCA) Navy DIF WordStar 3.3 Multimate Advantage II Seven-bit Transfer ASCII text WP Secondary merge to Spreadsheet DIF Bob Message: 13 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:42:43 -0500 From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" <curt at atarimuseum.com> Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 To: General at smtp3.suscom.net, "Discussion at smtp3.suscom.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43A04B83.6000405 at atarimuseum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I was told that Wordperfect can import and read Dec Word-11 and WPS All in One files, is this true???? Curt

20 years, 8 months

2
1
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Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs

by mbbrutman-cctalk＠brutman.com

I remember when I first used this piece of low-budget software 12 years ago that it had some interesting bugs, most of which surfaced when you used 'clever' features of C++, such as pure virtuals, destructors, etc. I've been using it to do a small TCP/IP implementation for a PCjr and have been sticking to vanilla C. After a few weeks of coding I've hit a bug that has just bewildered me. Take the following code: #include <stdio.h> #include "IP.h" IpAddr_t MyIpAddr; char *Ip::formatAddress( const IpAddr_t a, char *buffer ) { char bogus[] = ""; sprintf( buffer, "%d.%d.%d.%d", a[0], a[1], a[2], a[3] ); return buffer; } If I *dont* have the 'char bogus[]' line in there, the call to sprintf always returns zero. If I have that extra line in there, the call to sprintf works as expected. Another work-around is to not use the 'char bogus[]' trick, and just repeat the call to sprintf. The second one will work. Yet another trick is to move the function to the end of the file ... After a few hours of wrestling with this I am fairly sure it is a bug in the linker, and it has to do with the string constant on the sprintf. If it is the first string constant in the file, it doesn't work. If I do anything that adds another string constant before that one, it works, even if the other string constant is never referenced or used. Has anybody run into something similar to this? I'm using tdump (supplied with the compiler), the linker's map file, and debug to try to figure out the code gen and the suspected fixup error, but I can't see anything obviously wrong. Hints on tracking this would be appreciated. Mike

20 years, 8 months

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HP 98628A/100 Data Comm Interface

by technobug＠comcast.net

Available for postage... CRC

20 years, 8 months

1
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Cromemco MCB-216 3K BASIC amd Monitor ROMs

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Dec 14 2005, 0:23, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Craig has promised me a copy of the EPROM image files, possibly at the > weekend, and I'll put them on my website somewhere, possibly along with > the docs. He gave his consent to tell the list, and also said that > listmembers can email him directly: "craigl" <craigl AT removethis DOT > mindwrap DOT com> I've put the two ROM images on my website as Intel HEX files, along with README.pdf which Craig wrote. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/Cromemco/MCB216R0.HEX http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/Cromemco/MCB216R1.HEX http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/Cromemco/README.pdf http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/Cromemco/read.me just has a few lines of notes about the origin and where to find Cromemco docum,ents. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years, 8 months

1
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Early 3.5" Floppy Drives

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:16:02 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > > > >--- Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > >> I >> also have a two >> edition article describing what it would take to put >> MSDOS (V3.3!) >> on a NON-PC 8088 system. > > 3.2 or .3 was available for the NEC APC III and the >Rainbow (I think). I'm not absolutely sure the NEC >version was APC III specific, though probably. The APC >III had a compatibility board called the SLE (Software >Library Expander). The thing I saw on ebay could have >been vanilla ms-dos but I kind of doubt it. Basically MY first comment was if you've the time any format is possible. I know for a fact and have seen MSDOS 2.11 running on S100 crates with mixed drives (both 5.25 and 8") using nothing but serial lines (no monitors). Used to be a time where you could buy the programmers kit and customize MSDOS just like CP/M-80. Then MS decided they didn't want that. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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M8189 boot rom need burned

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned > From: "Wolfe, Julian " <ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:09:00 -0600 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Hello! > >I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest >(KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from >MSCP and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ > >Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the >chips is NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every >time. > >Can anyone help me out? > >Thanks >Julian We've already seen this poat and the traffic resulting. The M8189 used an odd motorola 8K part for MSCP boot not 2716. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Cromemco SCC ROMs availble

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

I've just received images of the Cromemco SCC ROMs (Z80 Monitor and 3K BASIC) which I know a number of people have been looking for for some time. I've already got them posted to my local copy of my site, and will move this to the live site sometime this morning. Should be available by noon (EST). Site URL is in my sig below, click on the "S-100" heading near the top, which will take you to my S-100 cards page. Scroll down to the Cromemco section and find the SCC entry. By noon there should be a "[ROM IMAGES]" link there. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

20 years, 8 months

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Early 3.5" Floppy Drives

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: Scott Stevens <chenmel at earthlink.net> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:08:04 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:22:19 -0800 >"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > >> On 12/12/2005 at 1:42 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> >Numerous machines came out with 3.5" drives using "customized" >> >versions of MS-DOS 2.11. >> >> ...and let's not forget a few systems came out with 5.25" 96 tpi >> drives running MS-DOS 1.25 or earlier. These certainly would >> support 3.5" 720K drives. >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> >I have heard of (but not seen) machines with 8" floppies that run >MS-DOS 1.x (not real sure what version). I could probably >contrive my MicroMint MPX-16 to behave in that fashion if I >installed an 8" drive on it to do the conversion. (would be >tricky getting it to support 5-1/4" and 8" simulatneously, and >maybe even impossible). I have MSdos on 8" unknown format but likely something native to a Compupro DISK1A with a CPU85/88 as the engine. I also have a two edition article describing what it would take to put MSDOS (V3.3!) on a NON-PC 8088 system. Supporting 8" is not hard you need 250 and 500khz data rates same as 5.25 360k and 3.5" 720k formats. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Early 3.5" Floppy Drives

by Watzman＠neo.rr.com

RE: "I have heard of (but not seen) machines with 8" floppies that run MS-DOS 1.x (not real sure what version)." Well, the Heathkit / Zenith Z-100 ran MS-DOS (called Z-DOS -- it was not PC compatible at the hardware level) and also supported 8" floppy drives (in fact a very nice accessory external dual-drive 8" floppy was offered). Also, again not PC compatible, but the CompuPro (Godbout) systems had 8" drives and in some configurations ran MS-DOS. Also, the Seattle Computer Products systems. And there were 8" controllers for early PCs.

20 years, 8 months

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PC-DOS 3.3

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Dec 14 2005, 0:58, Jules Richardson wrote: > wow, no I hadn't. They make that rather obscure! I only discovered it recently. I'd almost given up using it, for all the reaons you gave. As I see it, Google itself is easy to use, gives you the information you want by and large, in a sensible presentation. Google Groups doesn't fare well by comparison, so I use it infrequently. > well, I stand corrected. I might have to start liking Google again :) I wouldn't go that far :-) I said it "mostly" works. And the interface and layout still sucks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years, 8 months

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More Info on 68766 chips...

by zmerch＠30below.com

I just thought I'd let y'all know that anyone who doesn't have an EPROM burner that can burn 68764/6 chips, I do, so if you need 'em erased & programmed, I can do that as well... if you send me Intel Hex or S-record format files. (The software can do binary files, but I don't trust email for not munging it... ;-) By far the "hardest" (read: time-consuming) work is extracting the chips >from the carriers... I'll see what I have directly at hand (read: without needing to dig 'round the attic) for '66s and email y'all tonite or first thing tomorrow. I'm cheap, no minimum order, I throw extras in for free (if you order 2, you'll get 4 "just in case" ;-) I take paypal or if you can get away with it, foreign to the US coin/currency (usually at a great discount - I've collected coins longer than computers, and I have a pretty decent foreign collection, especially for a dumbass American! ;^> [[ For clarity's sake: "decent" != "expensive" - I ain't rich, and never will be! ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????

20 years, 8 months

1
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OT 3Com terminal server

by jim＠g1jbg.co.uk

Hi, I've just purchased a second hand 3Com CS2600 terminal server, but it was sold without its software does anyone have a spare, unloved copy of the Multiprotocol Communications Server software? 3Com are only interested if you have a pre-exisiting service contract :( Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK

20 years, 8 months

1
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GEM

by madcrow.maxwell＠gmail.com

>And I admit to being curious as to what "new 3D interface" means. Or is that >just marketing speak for "we added shadow effects to the buttons"? You got it. Although to be fair, it does look nicer than "flat" buttons. Frankly, it's that big an innovation though. 3D buttons were in OpenGEM 3 and were taken out from version 4 as the implementation as of 2003 or so meant that it took up too much memory. Clearly they either fixed the memory problem or just don't care anymore.

20 years, 8 months

2
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:05:58 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >I think a Floppy chip with a real built in data separator is the way to go. Find a37c65 or 9266. no big deal using raw ttl as then you can do ANY data rate. >Also a good dma is needed, as having the cpu do floppy I/O leaves >no margin for serial I/O. Not required. Small system, nice addition but pumps up complexity more than a bit. most of the S100 CP/M systems (and some of the SBCs) are non DMA and not even interrupts for serial IO. All polled. Not as nice but hardly serious. >The other thing is a NICE terminal to go with the system. I don't want >to boot windows or dos to run a terminal. For development work a PC is >a good idea until you get a OS running. I have a used Altos IV here, > from what the keyboard says but I don't know of how many years of >life the terminal may have left. Fix it, build one or find a VT220,320,320 whatever. myself I plan to buld a subsystem terminal but for the time being a VT320 or a DEC VK170 for those that know what that is. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips?

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

Hey everyone, Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM chips? These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC equipment. I'm looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these chips. Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a $150-200 minimum order. If you're interested, let me know. Julian

20 years, 8 months

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Toshiba T3100/e memory upgrade

by dm561＠torfree.net

Has anyone upgraded the memory on a T3100 by any chance? ( 1MB standard, 5MB max) Looks like 4 standard 30-pin modules, 256KB or 1MB, but it doesn't recognize any of the ones I've tried so I assume there's something proprietary about them. Anybody have any info or experience? TIA, mike

20 years, 8 months

2
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:29:00 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >No way that would work, as I don't have a TTL level monitor here, or a >real keyboard... So unfornturnate, no material to build with. >Just PC stuff! I still not figured out the terminal design yet, but it >would have 3 over laping You could use a PC for a terminal >displays ... lowest level -- some sort of graphic display -- say 8 grey >or 8 colors -- 3 dots per >byte. Second level -- User Ascii with fixed colors and transparentcy. >Third level -- System Ascii >and borders and cursor pointers. Thats one way and likely the most complex hardware intense. Allison

20 years, 8 months

2
1
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WordPerfect for DOS 5.1

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 > From: Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:43:15 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: >> A friend uses WP8 or 9 as Word is not optimum for legal >> briefs and the like. > >Why? At the time (5-7 years ago) it was the standard in the legal industry as it handled footnotes, citations and other aspects of legal documents better than work at the time. That may have changed, maybe. Allison >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

20 years, 8 months

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WordPerfect for DOS 5.1

by alhartman＠yahoo.com

Not necessarily true... My Wordperfect 5 for DOS came with a Bitstream Font engine that added Bitstream fonts to WordPerfect for DOS. I was NOT limited to the Printer Fonts, though I had an HP LaserJet and a special WordPerfect Font Cartridge for that which added many standard fonts to the Printer as well... This functionality was later added into WPDOS 6.x... If I had to, I could do ALL of my current WordProcessing needs on WPDOS 5.x or 6.x, and I did for quite a while... Regards, Al Hartman > Allison wrote: > >> As to better docs... WordperfectV5/dos was better than any of the MS >> apps for that back then. > > > He wasn't talking about document creation, he was talking about > printing, for which he is right on the money. If you used Word > Perfect 5 for DOS, you were limited to the fonts your printer > supported. If you used Geoworks, or Ghostscript (I used a retail > package called "GOSCRIPT"), or Win 3.1, you could use any font you > want and the print subsystem would just rasterize it as graphics. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 8 months

2
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

For the benefit of any one who is building up a 6809 based system and planning to run my CUBIX OS (or thinking about it): I have just updated the source code, documents, disk images and simulator for the CUBIX/6809 system which are available on my site. Main change is that I have ported my Micro-C 6809 compiler over to run native on the system. Languages currently included with CUBIX are: Assembler, Asp (high- level assembler), Basic, Forth, APL and now C. Due to the large size of the C documentation, the documentation diskette has been split into two physical disks (well... images for the simulator), "System/Utilities" and "Languages". The C compiler happened to expose an obscure stack corruption bug in the OS, so I have hunted that down and swatted it. I've also updated the simulator to include the ability to import/export text files as console input/output, and enhanced the debugger to include the ability to disassemble in either "6809" mode ("SWI" == "SWI"), or in "CUBIX" mode ("SWI / FCB xx" becomes "SSR xx") and a nifty "Step over" command which allows you to execute at full speed until the stack pointer returns to where you started. (The debug enhancements are brought to you courtesy of the stack corruption bug :-). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

20 years, 8 months

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looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

All, thanks for the responses. I now know what to look for (21MX) on eBay. I am not in a hurry, I can wait, but I have http://www.manualsplus.com/ bookmarked. But the link to the pdf (Chapter 2) given by Bob is probably all I need to get going! thanks! - Henk, PA8PDP > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: woensdag 14 december 2005 1:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F > > On 12/13/05, Gooijen, Henk <henk.gooijen at oce.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > I am looking for the user manual (console operations) > > of the HP 2113E and / or HP 2117F. > > Anybody know a download site ? > > > > Two manuals that would be good to find are: > > 21MX E-Series Computer > HP 2109B and HP 2113B > Operating and Reference Manual > part number 02109-90014 > > -or- > > 21MX E-Series Computer > Technical Reference Handbook > part number 5950-3765 > > (you missed out on this one: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8719876844 ) > > Neither of these appear to be currently available on bitsavers > You can find the 2113/2117 front panel schematics here: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/ > 92851-90001_Mar81_8.pdf This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 8 months

1
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PC-DOS 3.3

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Dec 13 2005, 23:07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > You can't view them directly, but if you click on Reply To Author it > > does get the email to them. > > And what if you locate someone in a post from ten years back who's no longer > on that address? In the past, if the company was obvious in the email address, > I'd look up the company name and politely contact them to see if the person I > wanted to reach was still there but just on a different address. That's no > longer possible now either... > > What bugs me is that Google have taken a useful archive and taken > functionality away from the user. It's either Google Groups and not linked to > Usenet, or it's a Usenet interface and should have the same functionality. I agree with the sentiment, and if there was a choice I'd use something else too. I hate the "new improved" format for more reasons than have been mentioned. But presumably you've not noticed the "Unlock email address" link in each message? Look closely -- there's an ellipsis (actually, three dots, not a proper ellipsis) in each "From:" adddress, just before the "at". Click on that. If you get some completely indecipherable image, just click "Cancel" and get another, hopefully better, image. Once you enter the correct data, click OK and you get the post with real addresses. Yes, it's a pain, but it (mostly) works. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years, 8 months

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CUBIX/6809 updates

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf > Sent: dinsdag 13 december 2005 23:35 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > > Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > >but it would make the entry of an address (16-bit) cumbersome. > >You must enter it as an 8-bit high and an 8-bit low address. > >I'd definately would go for 16 switches in this case, and also > >16 LEDs for the address. Perhaps a matter of taste ... > > > > > But come to think of it,. was not the 6809 board first > designed for your PDP 11 interface?. More than ample switches > and lights. True. I was not thinking of the I/O hardware capacity, but in the physical console, already built. The "blinkenlight" project can control the full-blown PDP-11/70 console (just), but if you need even more LEDs/switches to control, the design allows you to stack several I/O boards! Each I/O boards gives 64 input pins and 64 output pins, so go ahead and wire that S/3 console :-) - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 8 months

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cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 41

by bobalan＠sbcglobal.net

I have chapter two of the 21MX E-Series Computer Technical Reference Handbook scanned on my web site here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/hp/21mx_trh_ch2.pdf Might help. Bob >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:10:13 +0100 >From: "Gooijen, Henk" <henk.gooijen at oce.com> >Subject: looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F >To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Message-ID: > <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224E at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi, >I am looking for the user manual (console operations) of the HP 2113E and / or HP 2117F. >Anybody know a download site ? > >Reason: I won those two blinkenlight panels on eBay a few weeks ago, and want to add >the blinkenlight RealConsole with SIMH to demonstrate the ease with which you can make >your own "old big iron" system *if* you do not have the space or AC power to run such a >beast. I will always admit that nothing beats the real thing though! > >I checked bitsavers, but as far as I can see the specific versions I am looking for are not >there, and it is not clever to download some 10 Mb just to find out it's the wrong manual ... > >I know, I have way too much projects going, but hey, it beats hanging in the pub :-) > >- Henk, PA8PDP > >BTW. if I have the HP 211x panel wired, I will probably have questions about HP software >like which OS, etc. I am reaaly totally blank on HP. I was only an end-user on HP64000 >systems as a software engineer using editor, assembler, compiler, emulator and state >analyser IIRC, with 8085 (yuck), 6801 (ahh) and 68000 (yes!) pods). I still love the way >the HP64000 screen used the soft key concept. > > > >

20 years, 8 months

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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Dave Dunfield" <dave04a at dunfield.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:47:20 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >> A workaround for the floppy dataseparator would be very nice... > >Are they that hard to find? -- I've got a little stash of them, because I find them >all over the place (found quite a few at the local recyclers just by going through >their bin of scrap boards) I think they were quite popular at one time. They were >not uncommon on XT floppy controllers. > >I haven't build it, but I'm pretty sure I have a data-separator design from a NEC >application note or some such kicking around - I can see if I can dig it up. > >Regards, >Dave Yes, the 9216 and friends are scarce. If I end up scanning the apnote I'll send it to you as I dont hold a web site. There are two ways in TTL both work and are fairly simple. I have the apnotes. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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DOS 3.3 and copyright

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

To bring it down to a pragmatic level - 2 possibilities (1) for purposes of the OEM license Microsoft considers a "PC" to be almost any piece of hardware internal to a CPU. This would seem to have possibilities- maintain one piece common to a "known licensed" machine and then it should work, provided the other PC is not currently using the license. (2) for a while anyway, if I recall correctly, MSFT policy was that a current product license would allow you to install previous versions in lieu of it on a licensed machine. If this is still true, you could aquire something along the lines of Windows 95 and install DOS 3.3 (as a prior product) instead of the Windows 95. You could not, of course, then install the 95 on another machine. MSFT was strangely quiet about *how* you would get the prior versions if you didn't have media, but as far as I can see the license is the important part.

20 years, 8 months

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8-bit 1.44 Drive Controller (Was: Fancy Font?)

by CCTalk＠catcorner.org

> -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Feldman [mailto:r_a_feldman at hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 5:30 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: 8-bit 1.44 Drive Controller (Was: Fancy Font?) > > > You can buy these new from JDR Microdevices for $28.88. You > have to use this > one as the primary disk controller, but it supports up to > four 360kB, 720kB, > 1.2MB or 1.44MB floppy drives. > > http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=MCT-FDC-HD4 > Anyone know if these can be made to work as 4 drive controllers in Linux? Kelly

20 years, 8 months

2
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looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

Hi, I am looking for the user manual (console operations) of the HP 2113E and / or HP 2117F. Anybody know a download site ? Reason: I won those two blinkenlight panels on eBay a few weeks ago, and want to add the blinkenlight RealConsole with SIMH to demonstrate the ease with which you can make your own "old big iron" system *if* you do not have the space or AC power to run such a beast. I will always admit that nothing beats the real thing though! I checked bitsavers, but as far as I can see the specific versions I am looking for are not there, and it is not clever to download some 10 Mb just to find out it's the wrong manual ... I know, I have way too much projects going, but hey, it beats hanging in the pub :-) - Henk, PA8PDP BTW. if I have the HP 211x panel wired, I will probably have questions about HP software like which OS, etc. I am reaaly totally blank on HP. I was only an end-user on HP64000 systems as a software engineer using editor, assembler, compiler, emulator and state analyser IIRC, with 8085 (yuck), 6801 (ahh) and 68000 (yes!) pods). I still love the way the HP64000 screen used the soft key concept. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 8 months

4
3
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Old MS-DOS & WIN Software

by madcrow.maxwell＠gmail.com

Well, IMHO, Win95 was rather close to a real multitasking system, at least for Win32 programs. Maybe not as good as Linux or even NT, but it got the job done and got it done significantly better than 3.x And before people go bashing 95 anymore, I want to go on record as saying it's one of the few M$ products I actually like. It runs well on even a 486 with only 8 MB of RAM (already an almost obsolete config by the time Win95 came out) and has one of the cleanest, nicest GUIs around (bested at the time only by NeXT and OS/2 WPS)

20 years, 8 months

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Cromemco MCB-216 3K BASIC amd Monitor ROMs

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

For those who've not seen it on the comp.os.cpm newsgroup, here's part of a message posted by Craig Landrum: > After quite a saga, I've been successful in resurrecting my > copy of Cromemco's MCB-216 3K Control Basic and Monitor for > the Cromemco Single Card Computer. In the next couple of days > I will be moving the .HEX file from my CP/M machine to my Mac > G5 and can then provide it to anyone that needs it. I don't > have a website so perhaps Mr. Harte or another volunteer could > post the .HEX files to their sites if I email it to them. Let > me know if you want the files. I also have the 3K control > Basic doc and the Z-80 monitor doc, but that's available > elsewhere online. FYI, there are two .HEX files - one for > each of the 2716 EPROMs in the MCB-216 set, and they are short > - about 4K apiece (duh). Craig has promised me a copy of the EPROM image files, possibly at the weekend, and I'll put them on my website somewhere, possibly along with the docs. He gave his consent to tell the list, and also said that listmembers can email him directly: "craigl" <craigl AT removethis DOT mindwrap DOT com> -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years, 8 months

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GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software)

by korpela＠ssl.berkeley.edu

On 12/13/05, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > At 4:36 PM -0500 12/13/05, Bryan Pope wrote: > >Speaking of GUIs for older IBMs I also remember one called GEM. Does > >anyone know who developed it? > > Wasn't that "Digital Research", the same people that did CP/M? > Yep. It's now available under open source licensing and still works under most DOS versions. While GEM is a GUI, it's not multitasking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeGEM

20 years, 8 months

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MCM68766 EPROM chips

by bobalan＠sbcglobal.net

Message: 11 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:45:42 -0600 From: "Wolfe, Julian " <ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <E1EmIu0-0008CS-VU at smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I would be interested in 8 to 16 of them for upgrading a Tektronix 4052 computer. Bob Hey everyone, Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM chips? These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC equipment. I'm looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these chips. Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a $150-200 minimum order. If you're interested, let me know. Julian

20 years, 8 months

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Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:42:13 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/13/2005 at 12:24 AM 9000 VAX wrote: > >>One question. I often can find old abandoned PC's. Most of them are >>with software. Am I authorized to use the software I found? One step >>further, could I copy them to my own PC and use them? Examples are MKS >>tool kit, MS C 6.0, several versions of DOS, Qedit, PC tools. I admit >>that I am not bothered by this issue. I am just curious about the >>'main stream' opinion. > >I suppose that would depend on the EULA, wouldn't it? Some permit transfer >of license with or without charge, others don't. > The MS EULA is simple. If the machine dies and you pitch it you supposed to buy everything new. You may however repair it, for whatever that really amounts to. They want you to spend, spend, spend. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips?

by Useddec＠aol.com

Hi Julian, I have complete M8189's for $100. Thanks, Paul

20 years, 8 months

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Fujitsu SMD drive

by silvercreekvalley＠yahoo.com

Hi Recently received a Fujitsu SMD drive (85M) which seems to be in great shape. Fortunately the heads were locked when the drive was last powered down. I have the Xylogics card and cables and also various power cables. I noticed however that the drive does have 4 mounting points with rubber bushes. Does anyone have any experience in installing these drives, and what the mechanical requirements are? Were there special cases to contain the drives for example? Thanks Ian. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 8 months

3
2
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: Jos Dreesen <jos.mar at bluewin.ch> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:20:15 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >Am dinsdag, 13.12.05, um 16:45 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb >dave04a at dunfield.com: >>> >> >> Possibly - Although Cubix was originally designed to be the OS for my >> main >> computer, and by that fact is pretty close to what I envisioned. It >> was however >> done 25+ years ago, and there is room for improvement. I'd wait until >> some >> more people have gotten into it and see what feedback develops. >> > >A workaround for the floppy dataseparator would be very nice... > > Jos Dreesen one possible design but not tested. There are others that are better. www.analog-innovations.com/SED/FloppyDataExtractor.pdf

20 years, 8 months

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Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips?

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

Hey everyone, Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM chips? These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC equipment. I'm looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these chips. Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a $150-200 minimum order. If you're interested, let me know. Julian

20 years, 8 months

1
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Obscure Fuji Unix Computer

by bvdb＠cruzpro.com

Hi Dan, I came upon your old post and was wondering if you ever got a response. We have one working and one ocassionally working MCS16F and would love to know more about the operating system. Best Regards, Bert van den Berg bvdb at cruzpro.com Hi Everybody, If you come across the following computer, or know where to find one, or know anything interesting about it, please let me know! Labelled as: Fuji MCS-16F Alleged OS: Unix OS9 Custom User Interface Software: Fuji MCS/2E V3.33 Installed Custom I/O Cards visible on back: 1. VM1161 2. VM1410 3. VM1310 There is one 5-1/4" floppy drive installed. This appears to be a mid-1980's era customized controller, and is being used to control a mid-1980's era Fuji SMT system. The problem is that the system owners are beginning to be very nervous about the long-term feasibility of the computer/controller and are searching for a backup while preparing for a surprisingly expensive software upgrade sometime in the future. Fuji no longer supports the installed software. This is also the type of thing that one may encounter in the usual places... in a dumpster, or in a pile at an auction or, well, you know, where ever. Rest assured that this particular model of obscure computer has some worth left in it, so please let me know if you encounter one! Thanks, Dan M Bellows Falls, Vermont USA

20 years, 8 months

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CUBIX/6809 updates

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

but it would make the entry of an address (16-bit) cumbersome. You must enter it as an 8-bit high and an 8-bit low address. I'd definately would go for 16 switches in this case, and also 16 LEDs for the address. Perhaps a matter of taste ... What if you need access to xxx.nnn where xxx != 000 or 777? Why pose limits that early in the design? You might regret such a decision later ... - Henk, PA8PDP ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens woodelf Verzonden: ma 12-12-2005 23:05 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates Gooijen, Henk wrote: >Using the pdp8/e design fron panel for the 6809 is possible, but ... >there are only 15 Address LEDs (12 plus 3 for EMA), and the other row is >12 LEDs, so the upper 4 would not be used. The rotary knob could be used >to display A or B (or DP or CC) but to display X, Y, U, SP, PC you need >16 LEDs. There are just 12 switches, and you could use the SW switch as >the 13th, but still, to enter a 16-bit address would be cumbersome. >So, the pdp8/e panel is not the best choice, but the implementation >-hardware wise- is always possible. Software is what makes it 'tick' :-) >and I am sure that's "piece of cake" for you, Dave. > > As you all know by now I am building a 9/18 bit cpu. My front panel will be limited to 9 data switches and a address page switch. This lets me access 000.nnn and 777.nnn memory on address load. Since I plan only to use the swr for short programs on page zero and have a bootstrap rom and I/O on the last page this more than ample for me. A similar restricted front panel may be possible as well for the 6809 as data is byte orientated. Ben alias woodelf This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 8 months

2
1
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8-bit 1.44 Drive Controller (Was: Fancy Font?)

by r_a_feldman＠hotmail.com

You can buy these new from JDR Microdevices for $28.88. You have to use this one as the primary disk controller, but it supports up to four 360kB, 720kB, 1.2MB or 1.44MB floppy drives. http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=MCT-FDC-HD4 I have an earlier version that could be used as a secondary controller. I've been using it for 15 years at least. The only changes to Config.sys or Autoexec.bat that are needed are to point to the hard drive: it gets bumped up one drive letter for each floppy you add (my one 3.5" floppy is drive C: and the hard drive is then D:). Message: 12 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:14:12 -0800 (PST) From: Al Hartman <alhartman at yahoo.com> Subject: Fancy Font? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20051213161412.18248.qmail at web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 <snip> BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it only has 256k. I have to find one of those controller cards that will support a 1.44mb FDD also... Maybe at the Trenton Computer Festival next spring... Al

20 years, 8 months

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cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 39

by dm561＠torfree.net

-------------Original Message--------------- Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:14:12 -0800 (PST) From: Al Hartman <alhartman at yahoo.com> Subject: XT expansion (was Fancy Font?) BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it only has 256k. I have to find one of those controller cards that will support a 1.44mb FDD also... Maybe at the Trenton Computer Festival next spring... Al ----------Reply--------------- Might have both for ya; contact me off-list pls. mike

20 years, 8 months

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Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates]

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

>From: "Brian Wheeler" <bdwheele at indiana.edu> ---snip--- > >That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines >(heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) >burner. > >What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for PC-driven >burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If not homebuilt, what's >a reasonable price for one? > Hi I recommend not getting one at all. I recommend using flash memory. There are a number of boot flash memories that would work well. You put some simple code in the boot part to get things bootstrapped up and then use the other segments of the flash for your development. Of course, you need to program the flash for the first time. For this, you could get someone to program one with your bootstrap code. Just remember, the bootstrap code should be something really simple. You might even make it something simple with a parallel port that handshakes the data. That way you could even avoid debugging the initialization sequence for a serial chip. The bootstrap code should only load into memory a fixed amount of code and then jump to that code. 256 bytes should be enough. From there, you increase the complexity as much as you like. The parallel port could be just 2 bits out and 2 bits in. Just my thoughts. Dwight >Thanks! >Brian >

20 years, 8 months

2
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Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates]

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] > From: "Dwight Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:55:36 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Brian Wheeler" <bdwheele at indiana.edu> >---snip--- >> >>That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines >>(heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) >>burner. >> >>What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for PC-driven >>burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If not homebuilt, what's >>a reasonable price for one? >> > >Hi > I recommend not getting one at all. I recommend using >flash memory. There are a number of boot flash memories >that would work well. You put some simple code in the >boot part to get things bootstrapped up and then use >the other segments of the flash for your development. > Of course, you need to program the flash for the first >time. For this, you could get someone to program one >with your bootstrap code. Just remember, the bootstrap >code should be something really simple. You might even >make it something simple with a parallel port that >handshakes the data. That way you could even avoid >debugging the initialization sequence for a serial >chip. The bootstrap code should only load into >memory a fixed amount of code and then jump to that >code. 256 bytes should be enough. From there, you >increase the complexity as much as you like. > The parallel port could be just 2 bits out and >2 bits in. > Just my thoughts. >Dwight For CUBIX that means a bit of work as the OS is rom resident. Building a parallel port EEprom burner is trivial, Eprom for a limited design say one type is fairly easy. Code the drive the parallel port is a PC coding problem and I hate PCs. there are PCport designs on the net. myself I have a S100 board that does 2716->27128 and through a hack I've done 27512s and 27010s. Allison

20 years, 8 months

1
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: Jos Dreesen <jos.mar at bluewin.ch> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:20:15 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >Am dinsdag, 13.12.05, um 16:45 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb >dave04a at dunfield.com: >>> >> >> Possibly - Although Cubix was originally designed to be the OS for my >> main >> computer, and by that fact is pretty close to what I envisioned. It >> was however >> done 25+ years ago, and there is room for improvement. I'd wait until >> some >> more people have gotten into it and see what feedback develops. >> > >A workaround for the floppy dataseparator would be very nice... > > Jos Dreesen Theres a design on the net for a decent digital one that was from a NEC apnote. Someone found it a while back and I didn't copy the URL. If no one finds it I can with extreme pain scan the apnote published by NEC and also appeared in EDN May 13 1981. If that isn't available there is a simple but usable data sep that was used on the IBM XT FDC based on a TTL counter chip or two. Allison

20 years, 8 months

1
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cctalk/cctech

by legalize＠xmission.com

Does all cctech traffic get dup'ed to cctalk? I am subscribed to both lists and seem to be getting lots of duplicates. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

20 years, 8 months

2
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch at 30below.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:03:10 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Warning: I did not top post! There are further responses inline with the >reply. ;-) > >=-=-=-=-= > >Firstly, I'd like to mention that I've always wanted to build my own >homebrew 6809 system... altho I've been thinking of designing my own buss >system (around 80 pins or so) so other CPUs could be used if desired. I was >thinking of a multi-board system with a 6-7 socket backplane. I want it to >be educational to others (read: see-thru Lucite case & lotsa Blinkenlights! >;-) at the same time that I learn from it, too. > >For a few reasons, S100 is not an option: I want the system smaller / >easily portable (I'm guesstimating in inches: 6x6x9, with an external 5V >only switcher), and I also want it to be easily buildable by a hobbyist. >Trying to dremel an S100 cardedge would seem to be quite a bit of work for >not a lot of gain - but square boards with a pair of 40-pin IDE connector >(for example) edge-soldered on would be pretty easy to do at home. > >I do have a question: > >Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy that >might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be compatible with >something else out there if it's similar enough to what I want to accomplish. Not that some busses are processor specific so if you using CPU XXXX busses X,Z and Q may not be usefully available to you. On the other hand if your going small, at most you need an addres, data and control busses and for most 8bitters thats easily fit into less than 40 pins. I've done this before and a 8+ pin connector with odd or even pins all ground makes for a simple blackplane (IDC connectors on a wide peice of cable). >I'm hoping to take lots of pictures & basically make the design free on the >web as I do this, mainly to show people if an idiot like me can make a >computer, so can you! ;-) > >Oh, and for the record: Cubix looks *kewl*. ;-) > >Rumor has it that Scott Stevens may have mentioned these words: >>On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:15:48 +0000 >>"Dave Dunfield" <dave04a at dunfield.com> wrote: >> > > I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for >> > > me as I >> > >> > What a co-incidence ... CUBIX is 20+ years old, so it should >> > have been perfect :-) > >And it's never too late for good ideas. ;-) > >> > > realize in hindsight that 128k of >> > > memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. > >Them's fightin' words. 64K w/OS-9 got me thru High school & my first year >of college, before I got my CoCo3 & 128K (later to 512K) but I still had a >maximum 64K code space - and that kept me working until the mid-90's. Other >than running (crawling) Autocad, my '386 was the 'toy' and my CoCo was the >workhorse. Once I got an EISA 486-66 server from my (then current) >employer, did I consider the CoCo my secondary machine. I didn't cross the 64k barrier until 1981. Even then I rarely use it all. >> > > This the crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. >> > >> > Funny, I've done LOTS of "real work" in <64k 8-bit CPUs. Even >> > now a lot of my command line utilities are compiled in 64k >> > "tiny" model (Referencing stuff known here, Anyone notice that >> > ImageDisk, my Simulators and the various other transfer >> > utilities that I've done are all .COM files) - I used to think >> > 64k was lots of memory... and I still do! > >Unless you're running Windows. ;-) Here's the kicker. Winders sucks up a whole hell of a lot of space but an App that uses it wisely can be trivial in size. >>64K is a HECK of a lot of memory if your code is all in assembly. >>I've worked on projects where the limited program memory in the >>micro, i.e. the 16K of program memory available on-chip, was a >>godsend- it served as a brake on futher 'feature creep' requests >>from the folks in marketing. ("yes, we can include new feature >>'x' but it means doing away with the lookup table that feature 'j' >>you requested last month uses.") > >A few of those microcontrollers have 128K of flash on 'em now. > >I want my CoCo on a chip! ;-) I sure a Xylinx mumblefrap with all the right goop could get you that. However with 8k srams, 8keproms and a amazingly small handfull of parts.. As drawn by Dave 27 chips gets you 48k ram, OS in 8k Eprom, 2 serial ports, FDC that can handle 4 disks (360/720 5.25 or 720k 3.5" and 8" is basicaly there). If you recognize that the six 8Ksrams can be replaced with one 64k sram you knock off 5 chips and the FDC portion is 10-11 chips alone (basic 765 with ttl around it). If one could find a smc9229 FDI or mod the circuit for 37C65 that chip count gets much smaller. I happen to have some 64k srams and the majikal super rare custom FDI so the chip count will be under 20. As small single board systems go that is a very small chip count with out using PALS/GALS. Allison >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." >SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein >zmerch at 30below.com |

20 years, 8 months

2
1
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Amdek 3" Floppy Drives

by alhartman＠yahoo.com

When I worked for Zebra Systems in the 1980's, we were selling a Floppy Disk System for the Timex/Sinclair 2068 (which also worked for the Sinclair ZX-Spectrum with a different Adaptor), that was basically a seperate Z-80 Computer with 64k of RAM and could run CP/M in 80 Column Mode on an RGB Monitor plugged into the Controller Unit. At the time, Timex Portugal who made these units... Gave us a choice of 5.25" Disk Drives, 3.5" Disk Drives or 3" Disk Drives made by Amdek. They pushed the Amdek drives the hardest on us. And I BEGGED Stewart to go with either NO Disk drives as we could buy them cheaper in the U.S. and add them to the Controller ourselves... Or, go for 5.25" Drives. For reasons I don't fully understand... Stewart opted for the Amdek 3" Drives. They were plenty reliable, but... We couldn't get media for them from anywhere but Timex Portugal, which meant importing large orders of blank media from overseas. Rather than getting them from a domestic source as we did our 3.5" and 5.25" media for our Coco, Atari-ST, Amiga and other products. To this day, I think we would have sold MANY more units had we gone to another media format than 3" Amdek disks. I still have a couple here with the OS for that system on them. I have a ZX-Spectrum Bus Adapter here, but no drive controller or drives. Al Hartman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 8 months

10
23
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PC-DOS 3.3

by Watzman＠neo.rr.com

I have a retail boxed Generic copy of MS-DOS 3.3 sitting here on my bookshelf, in pristine new condition. I won't part with it, but I might be willing to make a copy of the diskettes if I can do it on my Z-100 (none of my other machines still have 5.25" disk drives), and, I guess I should add, if the disks are still good. Please note, it is MS-DOS, not PC-DOS. Not sure if this matters to you or not. Please contact me privately to pursue this. ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:00:01 +0000 From: Mark Firestone <pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org> Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <439D9E81.30109 at retrobbs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be willing to part with, or make disk images for me? I have to restore an application on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, and we've lost the disks (probably about 10 years ago...) Anyone? Please? Thanks, Mark *******

20 years, 8 months

2
1
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: dave04a at dunfield.com > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:37:44 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> I'm hoping to take lots of pictures & basically make the design free on the >> web as I do this, mainly to show people if an idiot like me can make a >> computer, so can you! ;-) >> >> Oh, and for the record: Cubix looks *kewl*. ;-) > >Would you be interested in collaborating on such a page - With the recent >interest, I've been thinking about putting a web page detailing the construction >of a 6809 system capable of running CUBIX ... If I can get you to do most of >that work, that would be great! :-) > >Dave > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. I've gone and started something. ;) I'd be willing to be in on this too. Allison

20 years, 8 months

1
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Jeff Davis" <jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:09:36 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Sun, December 11, 2005 6:57 am, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Highly recommended as a "fun project" if you like the idea of building a >> functional and unique computer (note: I mean really building, not "putting >> a PC board in a box"). >> >> If you have questions after all that, I am happy to answer them. If there is >> enough interest, I would also consider putting together a page specifically >> about CUBIX and building a machine to run it > >Building a 6809 CUBIX machine does sound fun. I've been looking for a smaller >project I can work with over time; I keep getting older computers (mostly sun >or macintosh) and fixing them up, but then they're cleaned up and running and >I get bored with them. It's why I build too. >I'm not a hardware design guy though, and wirewrapping is out for me. I can do >board stuffing and soldering, so if anyone else is going to design a >"reference" pcb that people can go in on and order in some quantity to reduce >costs, I'd be up for that. Wirewrap is ok to a point. If the chip count is too high I think harder about doing it. the hands and eyes arent what they used to be. >Dave, are there any areas of CUBIX that you have plans to improve or features >to add, but don't have time? If I'm going to build a little system to >softwarily tinker with, I might as well make something useful out of my >tinkering. I'd considered it for my self but the cost for boards demands a commitment in cash up front I cant justify for a one off version. Marketing a board requires a stable parts supply so what's layed out can be built by everyone. That always leads to being in the kitting business which is a remarkably time/money consuming process. You can ask Bob (SparetimeGizmos) about this. His kitted systems are nicely done and I suspect there are more than a few hours invested in getting it all together and supporting it. If you want a really super ELF (COSMAC 1802) or a 6120 (PDP8 in CMOS clothes) he's got two winners there. Allison

20 years, 8 months

1
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3.25 diskettes

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

yup, the 2inch drives were built into the Minisport, which had some pretty nifty firmware feature, which was able to exert control of the command line of another computer connected by a serial cable. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 12/11/2005 at 9:22 AM Lance Lyon wrote: > > >Amstrad CPC's used 3" diskettes (180kb capacity). > > > >cheers, > > > >Lance > > Smith-Corona PWP's used 2.8" diskettes and didn't Zenith offer a 2" > diskette at one time? > > --Chuck > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 8 months

6
6
0 0

WordPerfect for DOS 5.1

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 > From: Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:36:31 -0500 > To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: >>>Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 >>> From: Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> >>> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:43:15 -0600 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>> >>>Allison wrote: >>> >>>>A friend uses WP8 or 9 as Word is not optimum for legal >>>>briefs and the like. >>> >>>Why? >> >> >> At the time (5-7 years ago) it was the standard in the legal industry >> as it handled footnotes, citations and other aspects of legal documents >> better than work at the time. That may have changed, maybe. > > I think this is a regional thing, at least to some extent, but it has >changed a little. (I'm "primary tech nerd" for a lawyer friend, so I >have the latest skinny) Same here. I'd heard most had gone with PDF. If all else fails the paper version still rules. > WP is still the common application of choice, but where most >electronic documents were submitted as WordPerfect documents 3-5 years >ago, PDF is now the preferred submission format. This has a lot to do >with the perceived security of a PDF document, and the fact that it's >mostly application-agnostic. > > Please note that I said _perceived_ security! I do know it's not >difficult to alter a PDF. The public, for the most part, doesn't. Yep rodger that. It's far harder to do a file compare to the original and be sure you r getting an unalterd PDF. Word however, you have to be careful as it's possible to see previous versions and changes! Allison

20 years, 8 months

1
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: RE: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Robert Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:38:37 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> Same problem as the S100, tho - how do you chisel out an XT >> board edge connector at home... > > I've had fairly good success (the SBC6120 and Elf 2000) using stacking bus >connectors, similar to PC/104. They aren't quite as general purpose as a >real backplane, but you don't need fingers and you don't need gold plating. > >Bob This is a solution I've used as well that is cheap and has few negatives if any. One advantage is the connector is not married to any bus. I've used multiple 20, 34 and 40wide ribbon with IDC connectors for a bus (alternate grounds and power) that performs well at decent speeds. If one cable is not enough pins then use two side by side. It's advantage is common, cheap and you can taylor bus width to your needs. Since the "back plane" is short typically the problems of ringing and cross talk are minimal and adaquate grounds keep it clean. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Old MS-DOS & WIN Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:26:47 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Madcrow Maxwell wrote: >> Well, IMHO, Win95 was rather close to a real multitasking system, at >> least for Win32 programs. Maybe not as good as Linux or even NT, but >> it got the job done and got it done significantly better than 3.x > >My main problem with it was that it tended to disintegrate over time and >eventually would need a reinstall as functionality would start to break and >free disk space would mysteriously vanish... That was a FAT problem with crashes and power fails. Also some apps that allocate space and never return it. FYI: the worst offenders were MS apps! There are patches that can be applied and last version (b) was better. But in the end FAT is not robust. >All modern OSes (MS-based and otherwise) seem to suffer from that, but Win95 >was the worst. > >> And before people go bashing 95 anymore, I want to go on record as >> saying it's one of the few M$ products I actually like. It runs well >> on even a 486 with only 8 MB of RAM > >Not for program development it doesn't. Been there, done that! I can believe >it works well enough for WP and the like though. The environment descrived is too small. While a 486/66 is fine "ve found that 16mb or better 32mb of was more effective than faster cpu. >I'd say it was the point where the downward spiral of ever-increasing >application bloat started though. I don't remember Win 3.x apps or even apps >on other platforms being as colossal as the typical Win95 app was, and it's >all gradually got worse since then. I'm not sure whether Win95 itself is the >root cause of that or not - probably not, but it's strange that it happened >around that time period. Bigger OS and fancier apps with inefficient compilers that drag truckloads along for the ride needed or not contribute. Whats scary is when I see apps written in script languages that compile to some intermediate form that isn't native then we know it's convenience rather than efficientcy. Allison >cheers > >Jules

20 years, 8 months

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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:13:10 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/13/2005 at 1:52 PM Allison wrote: > >>STD really is the Z80 processor bus. A good choice would be SS50 (SWTP) >>as it's 6800/6809 based. > >Hmmm, maybe originally, but I've seen STD bus cards for just about any 8- >or 16-bit CPU you could imagine. Didn't Fujitsu put out a 6809-based STD >bus PC? I think they called it the FM-7 or some such. > >And STD bus is still in use. > >Cheers, >Chuck Indeed, it still is. But there are many choices and in the end it would depend if you wish to use boards native to that bus. If you not using board native to the bus then there is no compelling reason other than convenience in seeking protocards and connectors. In the past I've used PC XT (ISA-8) bus as it's 8bit data/20bit address and enough pins for anything. the convenice was there are/were bare busses (or you can cut up an old mainboard) and protoboards were cheap and fairly large. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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CUBIX/6809 updates - small system / bus choice

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

The Dr. Neherlab (of the Dutch Telecom, PTT) had in the end of the 70ties their own developed bus system. I was there and have such a (6800)based system still in the attick. My first home-built system, 1978). There were 8k bytes (with 2114) memory cards, 16k (2716) EPROM cards, and *different* CPU cards. I remember the 6800-based (obvious), but there was also a Z80-based card. Keep the memory boards in the backplane, swap the 6800 for the Z80 CPU card, and the system works (with other software of course). To be that versatile, the CPU boards had extra logic to make the bus interface always working (for example, the 6800 is synchronous in the bus transfers). Their system used the DIN41612 connectors (IIRC), It is the same connector used on VME modules, and has 32 pins in one row. With the 2- or 3-row version you have sufficient pins (96) for even a 68000-based bus system. That system also carried the power supply over the bus. I remember that pin #1 and pin #2 and pin #31 and #32 were used for +5V and GND. Hell, why not use the VME 3-HE bus pin designation for you own design? If you want a reliable, robust system, do not use card edge connectors. The VME connectors are superior. Besides, Eurocard boards with at one short edge drilled holes for DIN41612 3-row is pretty standard stuff. And if you want to build a small system, and have "dedicated" card for memory, (flash)ROM, and do not forget I/O !! - my humble opinion is Eurocard is the best choice. BTW, the female 3-row counterpart for DIN41612 also exists in a version to connect to flat cable! So, take some 20 cm of flat cable and pinch that female part on the flat cable, et voil?, you have the backplane / bus ! For improved noise immunity perhaps not the best solution, but then it is fairly cheap that way. my 2 (euro)cents, - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Roger Merchberger Verzonden: di 13-12-2005 19:03 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates Warning: I did not top post! There are further responses inline with the reply. ;-) =-=-=-=-= Firstly, I'd like to mention that I've always wanted to build my own homebrew 6809 system... altho I've been thinking of designing my own buss system (around 80 pins or so) so other CPUs could be used if desired. I was thinking of a multi-board system with a 6-7 socket backplane. I want it to be educational to others (read: see-thru Lucite case & lotsa Blinkenlights! ;-) at the same time that I learn from it, too. For a few reasons, S100 is not an option: I want the system smaller / easily portable (I'm guesstimating in inches: 6x6x9, with an external 5V only switcher), and I also want it to be easily buildable by a hobbyist. Trying to dremel an S100 cardedge would seem to be quite a bit of work for not a lot of gain - but square boards with a pair of 40-pin IDE connector (for example) edge-soldered on would be pretty easy to do at home. I do have a question: Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy that might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be compatible with something else out there if it's similar enough to what I want to accomplish. I'm hoping to take lots of pictures & basically make the design free on the web as I do this, mainly to show people if an idiot like me can make a computer, so can you! ;-) Oh, and for the record: Cubix looks *kewl*. ;-) Rumor has it that Scott Stevens may have mentioned these words: >On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:15:48 +0000 >"Dave Dunfield" <dave04a at dunfield.com> wrote: > > > I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for > > > me as I > > > > What a co-incidence ... CUBIX is 20+ years old, so it should > > have been perfect :-) And it's never too late for good ideas. ;-) > > > realize in hindsight that 128k of > > > memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. Them's fightin' words. 64K w/OS-9 got me thru High school & my first year of college, before I got my CoCo3 & 128K (later to 512K) but I still had a maximum 64K code space - and that kept me working until the mid-90's. Other than running (crawling) Autocad, my '386 was the 'toy' and my CoCo was the workhorse. Once I got an EISA 486-66 server from my (then current) employer, did I consider the CoCo my secondary machine. > > > This the crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. > > > > Funny, I've done LOTS of "real work" in <64k 8-bit CPUs. Even > > now a lot of my command line utilities are compiled in 64k > > "tiny" model (Referencing stuff known here, Anyone notice that > > ImageDisk, my Simulators and the various other transfer > > utilities that I've done are all .COM files) - I used to think > > 64k was lots of memory... and I still do! Unless you're running Windows. ;-) >64K is a HECK of a lot of memory if your code is all in assembly. >I've worked on projects where the limited program memory in the >micro, i.e. the 16K of program memory available on-chip, was a >godsend- it served as a brake on futher 'feature creep' requests >from the folks in marketing. ("yes, we can include new feature >'x' but it means doing away with the lookup table that feature 'j' >you requested last month uses.") A few of those microcontrollers have 128K of flash on 'em now. I want my CoCo on a chip! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

PC-DOS 3.3

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

> This is one place the law needs to be changed. Because copyright law is (by > consititutional mandate in the U.S.) designed to advance "the useful arts > and sciences" by making works available and by making sure that they end up > in the public domain. ... > Frankly, if its out of print, the copyright owner has decided that it is not > worth it for them to distribute it. At that point, for the copyright > holder to prevent distribution is unacceptable, even if it is legal. On the whole, I tend to be sympathetic to this view. This is one small place where I have the opportunity to "put my money where my mouth is." I just recently signed a contract on a book. One of the things I asked of the publisher is that if they ever take it out of print, then I can request that the copyright revert to me. My intent is that the book not disappear. I would either release it through a self-publisher like Lulu or just make it available on the net. It turns out that certain other details (like third party translations) get a little more complicated but not in a way that harms my objectives. So at least in one area, some of the players are pretty sane. But then again, books have generally been the most sane part of the copyright scene. If only software and music thought of their products like we think of books... Brian L. Stuart

20 years, 8 months

1
0
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WordPerfect for DOS 5.1

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 > From: Al Hartman <alhartman at yahoo.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:02:17 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Not necessarily true... > >My Wordperfect 5 for DOS came with a Bitstream Font >engine that added Bitstream fonts to WordPerfect for >DOS. Worked well too. >I was NOT limited to the Printer Fonts, though I had >an HP LaserJet and a special WordPerfect Font >Cartridge for that which added many standard fonts to >the Printer as well... > >This functionality was later added into WPDOS 6.x... WP6 was really good and I have it on the system still. A friend uses WP8 or 9 as Word is not optimum for legal briefs and the like. Also WPis available for Linux and thats a very good thing for the non-gui desktop user. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Fancy Font?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Fancy Font? > From: Al Hartman <alhartman at yahoo.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:14:12 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Anyone ever use this? I still ahve it for CP/M works ok. teamed up with ROFF (CPM runoff) it's handy. >BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing >to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it >only has 256k. > I have a sixpack with the permium pack (more ram) I haven't decided what I may do with. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Old MS-DOS & WIN Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Madcrow Maxwell <madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:24:11 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Well, IMHO, Win95 was rather close to a real multitasking system, at >least for Win32 programs. Maybe not as good as Linux or even NT, but >it got the job done and got it done significantly better than 3.x Yes, though not nearly as good as NT. It reallys shows pain when there is networking activity and multiple tasks. There were three multitasking (non unice) paths from DOS. Win95, NT3.51 and OS/2 and NT is the only remaining technology line of the three that's semidecent. >And before people go bashing 95 anymore, I want to go on record as >saying it's one of the few M$ products I actually like. It runs well >on even a 486 with only 8 MB of RAM (already an almost obsolete config >by the time Win95 came out) and has one of the cleanest, nicest GUIs >around (bested at the time only by NeXT and OS/2 WPS) As someone that maintained W95b in a business environment for 5years and as a user it's ok. W98se was better but more bloated. If you built the hybrid of 98 internals and 95gui it was decent. However it's problems were that if it swaps things sometimes get nasty and FAT16/32 was not robust. Also if an app went off in the woods the OS was doomed. It certainly was serviceable and ran on fairly light platforms usefully. After W98se the bloat was unmanageable. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Fancy Font?

by alhartman＠yahoo.com

Anyone ever use this? That ad for the Zebra Disk System a few posts back, was done on an Imsai Computer using CP/M 2.2 with a Z80 Board in it. I processed the text using WordStar and put in commands VERY similar to HTML to output text to an FX-80 F/T Printer with a program called Fancy Font... Which I guess would be called a RIP, but it wasn't PostScript. Later, we moved to the IBM PC Version of this program I ran on either an Eagle XT Clone, or an XT Clone I was using. Further on... I was using an Atari-ST Upgraded to 2.5mb with a Magic Sac Cartridge (Mac 512 Emulator) a 20mb Atari Disk Drive, and Epstart to get my Epson FX-80 F/T to emulate an Imagewriter using Adobe Type Manager for better font handling. THOSE were the days... When squeezing "Letter Quality" out of old Dot Matrix Printers was FUN!!! I remember drooling over Don Lancaster's articles that married an Apple Laserwriter Controller Board to an HP LaserJet. I ALWAYS wanted one of those. Never did it. Now, I have SEVERAL LaserJet IIIP printers, the Adobe Postscript Cartridge AND the Pacific Page Cartridge. Neither of which seem to work well with Windows XP or MacOS X. Oh well... BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it only has 256k. I have to find one of those controller cards that will support a 1.44mb FDD also... Maybe at the Trenton Computer Festival next spring... Al __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 8 months

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cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 36

by alhartman＠yahoo.com

Glad to oblige.. Here's some websites with pics... http://www.outlawnet.com/~jboatno4/zintface.htm (I made both the Label and Ad in this page.. LOL!) http://www.outlawnet.com/~jboatno4/slvr-fdd.htm http://www.outlawnet.com/~jboatno4/welcome.htm http://www.timexsinclair.org/unsorted/TS-ZebraDiskSystem.html My friend Tom still has one of the black FDD-3000 Systems (all in one case). I may get it from him at some time. I don't have a TS-2068 anymore, but I DO have a prototype of a U.S. ZX-Spectrum, and a Spectrum version of the FDD Interface. So, I could run such a system using my Spectrum. Al --- cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:08:27 +0000 > From: Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> > Subject: Re: Amdek 3" Floppy Drives > > Hi Al, > > On 12/12/05 01:04, "Al Hartman" > <alhartman at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I still have a couple here with the OS for that > system > > on them. > > Have you got any pictures of the units? I don't > think I've heard of that > subsystem at all! > > Cheers > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private > home computer > collection? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 8 months

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CUBIX/6809 updates

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:12:21 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/13/2005 at 1:03 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy that >>might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be compatible with >>something else out there if it's similar enough to what I want to >>accomplish. > >Maybe not 80-100, but how about STD bus? > STD really is the Z80 processor bus. A good choice would be SS50 (SWTP) as it's 6800/6809 based. If you use a 100pin connector with odd or alternate pins as ground then the backplane can be ribbon cable with IDC connectors! Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Early 3.5 Floppy Drives

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

APC and the Xerox 16/8 had 8inch drives as an option. So did the Canon as-100 *very rare*. Dave Dunfield has Dos 2.? for the APC on his site. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 12/12/2005 at 9:08 PM Scott Stevens wrote: > > >I have heard of (but not seen) machines with 8" floppies that run > >MS-DOS 1.x (not real sure what version). I could probably > >contrive my MicroMint MPX-16 to behave in that fashion if I > >installed an 8" drive on it to do the conversion. (would be > >tricky getting it to support 5-1/4" and 8" simulatneously, and > >maybe even impossible). > > You may want to look at what the NEC APC did for MS-DOS and 8" drives. I > think I've got a couple of original 8" MS-DOS diskettes for the APC, but I > don't recall what version. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 8 months

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Old MS-DOS & WIN Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Scott Stevens <chenmel at earthlink.net> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:30:56 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >Something rather surreal in some regards, but which could be very >useful for quick hackish projects, is Visual Basic for MS-DOS. >It's not something Microsoft promoted for very long, but it was >out there and some of us grabbed a copy. > >And yes, I do have the boxed Professional version. And what may >have been the only third-party book teaching how to code in it. > >It's sort of cool- a completely text-mode version of Visual Basic >that you can develop code with on with a machine that only has an >MDA card. Like watching mpegs rendered to 'ASCII graphics' >(somebody actually coded that, btw.) It works almost identically >to Visual Basic 3.0 for Windows. It's other brother, QuickBasic4.5/dos is in that collection and still something I use. My old dosware, early windowsware is stuff I'd bought and gotten with my first machines. Some of those machines didn't last but I did keep the software as it's useful and mine. However the one I like the most is Corel Paradox for windows as the license is actually in english and allows for a work copy and a home copy on the basis that you are only really using copy of it at any time. That and it produces decent Pascal! Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Old MS-DOS & WIN Software

by dm561＠torfree.net

----- Original Message ---- From: "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" <chenmel at earthlink.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:30 AM Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > Something rather surreal in some regards, but which could be very > useful for quick hackish projects, is Visual Basic for MS-DOS. > It's not something Microsoft promoted for very long, but it was > out there and some of us grabbed a copy. > > And yes, I do have the boxed Professional version. And what may > have been the only third-party book teaching how to code in it. > > It's sort of cool- a completely text-mode version of Visual Basic > that you can develop code with on with a machine that only has an > MDA card. Like watching mpegs rendered to 'ASCII graphics' > (somebody actually coded that, btw.) It works almost identically > to Visual Basic 3.0 for Windows. http://www.qbcafe.net/english/index.html?dl_pages/compiler/index.html~qbc_m… This link has a few libraries for QuickBasic and Visual Basic for DOS (and if you dig around it has the VBDOS binaries). Visual Basic for DOS can do real graphics just like QuickBasic can, the interface is just DOS based I believe. ---------------------Reply---------------- Most third-party MDA cards were Hercules-compatible and could display better graphics than CGA (Mono, of course, but much cheaper than EGA or VGA, and surprisingly, Windows didn't look too bad without colour). And there was a driver to use the internal speaker for sound if you couldn't afford a sound card... mike

20 years, 8 months

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PDP-11/73 booting!

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Dec 12 2005, 21:17, Allison wrote: > I did say 73B didn't I? There were two different J11 cards, I am using > the M8190 KDJ11-B which is Q22. However there is a later J11 that uses > the PMI memory. I have memory for that one but not the CPU. Yes, you did say 73B. As I'm sure you know, there were two 73s, one dual M8192 and one quad M8190. The dual is QBus only, naturally, no PMI. The 83 is also quad, and is the same M8190 card as the 73, but with a faster clock (the earliest J11s won't run reliably at 18MHz let alone any faster) and slightly different bootstrap ROMs. 73 was sold as a 15MHz non-PMI system and the 83 as 18MHz PMI, but in fact you can move the 73 card below the memory instead of above it and it will work (if the memory is PMI, anyway!). In fact the OSs distinguish 11/73 systems from 11/83 systems simply by checking if they're using PMI. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years, 8 months

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PC-DOS 3.3

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PC-DOS 3.3 > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:20:52 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/12/2005 at 4:27 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >>MS-DOS was officially end-of-lifed by MS so I don't see the harm. We >>certainly >>don't have a problem distributing obscure OSes, tape loaders, and CPM so >>why >>should DOS be any different? > >Well, there is a difference. MS-DOS/PC-DOS can still be run on modern >machines--there's no argument that "the hardware to run it doesn't exist >any more". And both firms that can claim copyright (good for 95 years) are >still around. I'd hate to get a letter from a Microsoft suit saying "cease >and desist--and pay us $250,000". > >Not to put too fine a point on it, but I can't legally make copies and >distribute an out-of-print literary work without permission, why is there a >difference with software? Has anyone asked Microsoft or IBM if it would be >okay? Or do we already know that the answer is going to be "no", so we >might as well not ask and draw attention to things? > >Cheers, >Chuck Exactly! FYI: CP/M does still have a copyright in effect only the license to use and distribute for NON_COMMERCIAL purposes has changed. Thank you Tim Olmstead for persuing this. The bottom like is yes, there is a lot of software that can be copied freely for for hobbiest use but the copyright is still in effect and the license that allows it is now suspended for whatever reasons. Would MS do that with dos up to say 6.22? No idea. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Old MS-DOS & WIN Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:42:54 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >I have boxed versions of Desqview/X 1.0 and 2.0 and they are fun to play >around with on 386/486 machines. The bad part of DV/X is there are less >native apps (can't think of any other then DV/X enabled DOS programs for >BBS's) for it then OS/2. > >Windows 3.1 lives on with some hobbyists (me anyway) because of the Apps and >hardware that was made for it. IF there are few native apps then the OS goes >to obscurity very fast. I still have my kits for Win3.1, win3.11 DOS5, DOS6.22, Norton desktop and and useful software like Paradox4.5/dos, Wordperfect suite, Procom, Norton commander and Norton utilities/dos and a carload of other stuff. Most importantly a Laptop (color-486/66) and desktop 486/66 that run these. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Getting rid of my collection, Pt.1

by kerr_avon＠hotmail.co.uk

Hi, it's been quite a while since I last posted to this list (about 4 1/2 years I believe) but it's good to see many familiar names still popping up. Anyway, the last 4 years have seen some major uphevals in my life and I find myself in the position of needing to get rid of pretty much my entire collection of "classic" machines fairly quickly. A friend of mine did post a similar message here on my behalf back in March, but, due to an unforseen series of real world problems, I either lost contact with or wasn't able to reply to people. I'll be offering up this "junk" in batches as I sort through each afflicted room to see what's in there, the first batch being as follows: 3Com "3Station" - 2 off DEC PDP-11/53 (BA-23 Cabinet) DEC MicroVAX II (BA-23 Cabinet) DEC MicroVAX II (BA-123 Cabinet) - 2 off DEC VAXConsole (Pro-350?) HP LaserJet+ IBM AS/400 Model 9404 - with expansion cabinet (never gotten it to fire up) IBM RS/6000 Model 520 IBM PC/RT - CAD system including 19" colour monitor, graphics "box" & more Pr1me 2455 - c/w terminal & kbd, but no hard/tape drives (SCSI) SGI Iris 4D/70 GT Tandon Pac286(?) - c/w mono monitor, kbd, printer etc In addition, I also have an unidentified 19" SGI monitor (manufactured by Philips, in a cream case), a pile of assorted DEC manuals, two or three boxes of assorted Q-Bus and Unibus boards (don't ask me what they are as they're in storage and I don't have a list) and a full tower AT case with PSU to go. I'm not looking to sell this gear, I'd rather give it to people on this list with the time and enthusiasm to do something with it. That said, considering how much petrol money it cost me to collect, I'd certainly appreciate donations any of the following: SCSI hard drives (10Gb or larger, or IDE drives at a pinch) Hauppauge Media MVPs Rio Receivers (sometimes badged "Dell") PCI DVB-T cards PCI DVB-S cards Pinnacle "Showcentre"s (fat chance) "Classic" MP3 players or the odd fiver if you feel that way inclined. :-) All this equipment is located in Birmingham (UK) and has to be collected, I do not have the means to deliver and it's far too heavy to even consider posting (with the possible exception of the "3Stations"). As I said, I need to shift this stuff fairly quickly - as soon as humanly possible really (this side of Christmas would be just perfect). The absolute deadline will be sometime in Feb, anything that hasn't gone by then WILL go in the nearest skip I can find - no matter how rare/desirable it may be. Please contact me off-list if you're interested in any of this stuff. Thanks. TTFN - Pete. _________________________________________________________________ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters

20 years, 8 months

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Timing of PDP-11 Instructions

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Timing of PDP-11 Instructions > From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to> > Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:57:37 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >I am still not able to figure out why the FORTRAN 77 >subroutine has different timing when the destination >address is moved from PAR0 to PAR1 under RT-11 under >both E11 and a real PDP-11/73. Cache has been suggested, >so I will attempt the calculation with a PDP-11/23 >which does not have any cache. > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine Cache is half the answer. The other half is when you hit the bus on a cache miss two things have to happen. You have to do bus transactions which are very slow compared to cache and you have to refill the cache. IF there is any MMU action required (pagein/pageou) you add that overhead as well. Remember the PDP11 is 16 bits. Any addressing outside ~28kwords is going to involve a MMU operation. That a lot of register access and it's costly(in time), more so if you need to move the Dmap in an I&D machine (11/73). The reason for that is those actions lie inside the core OS and require system calls to process. E11 is just being faithful to the core PDP11 so I'd expect similar if not exact same behavour. You didn't say RTll SJ or FB. Shame you can try that (in F77) on a VAX or PC wher 32bit address space is the rule. I'd expect much different behavour.. Till your task is paged out. ;) Allison

20 years, 8 months

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M8189 boot rom need burned

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned > From: "Wolfe, Julian " <ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:34:16 -0600 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Hello! > >I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest >(KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from MSCP >and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ > >Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the chips is >NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every time. > >Can anyone help me out? > >Thanks >Julian > The part would ahve a 23-class part number for a DEC version with code in it. I'll have to pull a board to read the part number and verify if DEC used 2716, or 2764s for their part. My DOCs show the default configuration was for DEC parts in the 2764 or the motorola 8k family. Also there are two differnt rom set and only one (KDF11BF) does MSCP boot. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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PDP-11/73 booting!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:10:56 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Dec 12 2005, 18:01, Allison wrote: > >> uVAX-II and 11/73B need/require over the top. 11/23B (and 11/73A) >> is strictly Q22. I happen to have the earlier non-pmi 11/73. >> And of course the uVAXII. > >11/73 doesn't need over-the-top and has no provision for it. As an >11/73 it's supposed to be used with normal QBus memory, but all will >work with PMI memory (a la 11/83, in fact they're the same board). > I did say 73B didn't I? There were two different J11 cards, I am using the M8190 KDJ11-B which is Q22. However there is a later J11 that uses the PMI memory. I have memory for that one but not the CPU. I have every Qbus PDP-11 from the LSI-11/03 through the 11/73. Here in the greater Maynard area we get to see more of the bits that DEC sold. Then again I got the option during the great bleed to purchase my underdesk systems for a token amount as we all left that facility. Many others did as well. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Old MS-DOS & WIN Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:32:27 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: >> As to better docs... WordperfectV5/dos was better than any of the MS apps >> for that back then. > >He wasn't talking about document creation, he was talking about printing, for >which he is right on the money. If you used Word Perfect 5 for DOS, you were >limited to the fonts your printer supported. If you used Geoworks, or >Ghostscript (I used a retail package called "GOSCRIPT"), or Win 3.1, you could >use any font you want and the print subsystem would just rasterize it as graphics. Ah yes, then again I was using other stuff to do that. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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PDP-11/73 booting!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: David Betz <dbetz at xlisper.mv.com> > Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:38:59 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Well, I have the two cables that connect to the RDxx drive. Sounds >like my best bet would be to get a BA23 box with the appropriate >panel already installed. I guess I'll start looking for one of those. Certainly if you can find a BA23 with the rack kit that would be an ideal solution just make sure it has the PDP-11 backplane (can have a different one for VAX). Then you can transfer the modules you have to it and have more usable slots as the backplane is 18 slots (ABAB config). There's a plus you'll have the distribution board for the in box mounted RX and RD drives. Allison > >On Nov 30, 2005, at 7:18 PM, Allison wrote: > >> There isn't a "cab kit" for RQDXn. The cables were all internal >> and you used RQDXn in one of the BA23/123 boxen. So you either need >> a M9058 from a scrapped BA123 or a mostly torn up BA23 (micro PDP11 >> or microvax) you can pull the pannel from. You also need the little >> switch pannel inserts from the BA123 to enable READY/OFFLINE and >> Writeprotect. >> >> You need: >> >> 1 50 pin female to female IDC cable (max length 18") RQDXn to breakout >> 1 34pin female to female IDC cable (max length 30") (RX50) >> 1 26pin IDC to card edge (RDxx) >> 1 34 pin IDC to card edge (RDxx) >> >> If your not using either of those boxes then your doing what I did >> which was to build something DEC didn't document. The cables are >> seriously are trivial and not a big a deal like those breakout boards >> and the switch pannels. >> >> Having done this I know.

20 years, 8 months

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Good haul of old PC stuff

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Good haul of old PC stuff > From: "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:46:37 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > >A place I worked at untill the 1999 used an old XT to run software to check >the serial ports of temperature controllers. Generally if the device does >not change, companies tend to use the same old equipment for QC. The last place I was at used a pair of them for test and data logging of product and another to control ovens used to bake out parts. They are still in service. Allison

20 years, 8 months

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Good haul of old pc stuph

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

>From one of the XT clones I got something I have heard of but >never seen before: an 8-bit controller card for IDE drives. It >has a BIOS extension on it and some other chips, I haven't >studied it thorougly yet. There were a few XT IDE controllers back in the day. The one I still have is made by Acculogic, called the sIDE/16 or something. People who have used them claim they work well. Either this one was blown to begin with or the drive was at fault. It's mostly discrete logic, the exception being a GAL or PAL as I recall. There wasn't any firmware on it from what I remember. What did I do with the thing? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 8 months

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Good haul of old PC stuff

by chenmel＠earthlink.net

Today at work I was given another haul of old stuff retired from the lab. I got a whole pile of 8088 IBM machines. Actually, there were some XT clones as well, which I didn't keep as units, but did salvage the cards and drives out of. >From one of the XT clones I got something I have heard of but never seen before: an 8-bit controller card for IDE drives. It has a BIOS extension on it and some other chips, I haven't studied it thorougly yet. I kept intact the IBM machines, two complete PC-XT systems and two PCs. I believe both XTs have the 64-256 motherboard. Most of the boards in these systems are IBM originals, they all have 'AST Six-Pack' style (not sure of the brand) memory and I/O expansion. If I ever get the time (hmmm..) I may build a cassette drive cable and explore cassette basic on one of the PCs (stripped down, of course, to remove the 'optional' floppy controller.) I am now the sole person in the lab still using the last two PC-XTs (and a Commodore SX64) for actual data acquisition and test purposes. I was able to grab and consolidate ALL the good parts, so the machine in the lab I primarily use now has a special drive controller (with BIOS extension) in it, so that the B: drive is a 1.44M 3-1/2" drive. I also got an IBM CGA monitor in the haul today, and a number of real IBM PC keyboards. There are also some 'third party' switchable XT-AT keyboards. If anybody on the list needs a 'third party' XT keyboard for the cost of shipping, drop me a note, I will give away up to three of the ones I got today (and they continue to grow harder to find) to the first three people interested.

20 years, 8 months

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HP 735 Workstation fun.

by jba＠sdf.lonestar.org

John A. said: > I just found an HP Apollo PA-RISC 735/125 (1992) in very good condition. > > It's another example of HP's ridiculously clean under-the-hood design, > and probably could almost be shown to industry outsiders as an object > of art. </rant> > > I have to ask: Anyone have a copy of HP-UX that will run on this? > I understand that NetBSD won't use the UltraSCSI and I like to keep > the original configurations together anyway. There was a place on the net somewhere that was selling HP-UX 10.20 install media for $30. It'll take some time to dig it up since I purchased it years ago. All you should have to pay for is the media. I personally own a HP 715/100, and I was informed that even owning the machine was all that was required to use HP-UX (you didn't have to buy a license, ownership granted you the license). So keep an eye out for the install media because you do not need to purchase a $700 license. I think the last version to run on the 700 series was 10.20, but I may be mistaken. eBay often has media for 11.0, but the price is astronomical. You might also consider a Debian linux install. I've loaded my 715/100 up with Sarge (Debian 3.1) and it runs great, if a little slow. Rock solid and stable, and all the 715 hardware is supported. Not sure about the 735s. -Jeff jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

20 years, 8 months

2
1
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M8189 boot rom need burned

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Dec 12 2005, 18:34, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest > (KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot >from MSCP > and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ > > Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the chips is > NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every time. You do realise that all the later (EP)ROMs (which are actually for a microPDP-11/23, though it's the same CPU board) are 8Kx8 not 2Kx8 and moreover they're an unusual type (MCM68766) that has 24 pins, not 28 pins like most 8Kx8 EPROMs? If you can get suitable EPROMs, you need to move the link that connects J23-J24 so it connects J22-J23 instead. All microPDP-11/23 bootroms include an MSCP bootstrap. You only need the latest ones (-BJ) if you really need to boot a TK50 (not just read/write it). Do you do that often? Otherwise -BE or -BF are good and common enough that you might find a set. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years, 8 months

1
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M8189 boot rom need burned

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

Hello! I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest (KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from MSCP and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the chips is NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every time. Can anyone help me out? Thanks Julian

20 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

Old MS-DOS & WIN Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Wouter <cctech at retro.co.za> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:42:36 +0200 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >Hi all > >>Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's came out, >>would we have windows today? > >It's called "Linux". And yea, we still have Windoze... :-) > >W At the time of the 386 there was: CCPM, at least three *nix, OS/2 and DOS. Winders was what, version 1.0? The problem is not that we have windows, thats Apples fault. ;) It's how we arrived at it. Funny with I hear of new OS or a port of an older one the first two questions are can it does it run X and can it network. Networking is not the big deal it used to be and you see everything doing it even minimal machines. Windowing however is never trivial, like a fungus it grows and it eats ram, cpu and everything in sight. I was happy for years running DOS with Norton Commander (midnight commander for the linux user). What I didn't get with windows (V3.1, W9x) was a real multitasking OS. Why? Because DOS wasn't a multitasking OS. There lies the problem. Allison

20 years, 8 months

5
5
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PDP-11/73 booting!

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Dec 12 2005, 18:01, Allison wrote: > uVAX-II and 11/73B need/require over the top. 11/23B (and 11/73A) > is strictly Q22. I happen to have the earlier non-pmi 11/73. > And of course the uVAXII. 11/73 doesn't need over-the-top and has no provision for it. As an 11/73 it's supposed to be used with normal QBus memory, but all will work with PMI memory (a la 11/83, in fact they're the same board). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

M8189 boot rom need burned

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

Hello! I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest (KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from MSCP and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the chips is NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every time. Can anyone help me out? Thanks Julian

20 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

Acorn IEEE488 interface

by eelco＠huininga.nl

> Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:35:51 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <m1ElWzC-000IyBC at p850ug1> > Content-Type: text/plain > > >>I've also got the schematic for the Acorn System IEEE488 card somewhere - it >>wouldn't surprise me if the BBC unit is based heavily on this (I don't think I > > > It might be, it might not. The 'Acorn' IEEE-488 interface for the Beeb > doesn't seem to be an Acorn design. > > The article to find is in 'Electronics and Wireless World' February 1984, > pages 24-26 ('IEEE488 interface for the BBC Microcomputer'). It imples > the interface was actually designed by a company called 'Intellegent > Interfaces'. Indeed it is. I ran the IEEEFS ROMs which are available at the 'The BBC lives' site through a disassembler and both ROMs have a copyright message saying '(C) Intelligent Interfaces Ltd and Acorn Ltd'. Could you scan the article? I'd be very interested in it! > Anyway, there is a schematic. It's based round a 9914 chip along with the > 75160 and 75162 buffers. There's a 5MHz clock circuit, an address > decoder, a data bus buffer, and the normal circuit to de-glitch the page > select line on the 1MHz bus. That's all. Nothing remotely odd. > > Link S1 selects system controller mode, link S2 selects active pull-ups > on the IEEE488 data lines. I've just finished reverse-engineering the board and it's indeed a very straight-forward design. [snip] > I do. I think I might also have the IEEEFS ROM that goes with it, but I > can't promise that. I wonder what version you've got. The 0.2 ROM seems like a beta version, with lots of 'unused code' in between the different subroutines, and the 0.5 ROM hasn't got any filesystem support, just support for the OSWORD calls. [snip] > Hmm, I see what you mean. The manual looks very comprehensive with lots of > examples - but I can't see where it justifies why the addressing is done in > this way. I think it was done so the IEEE interface could be accessed as an ordinary file system (file handles &F0-&FF were reserved for IEEEFS IIRC). Cheers, Eelco

20 years, 8 months

2
1
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Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:59:46 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/8/2005 at 9:49 PM Allison wrote: > >>> >>>Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win >Software >>> From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> >>> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:30:35 -0700 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>> >>> >>>What I do find odd that the 8086 came out first then a few years later >>>the 8088. >>>It still think the 8086/8086 could have had two instruction sets -- >>>8080 emulation and >>>a better 16 bit design. >> >>Not that I know of. I remember being able to get 8088s before the 86s >>and that was back in 78 or early 79. > >I think you're thinking of the NEC V20/ uPD70108 and the V30/uPD70116 CPUs. > Plug-compatible with the 8088 and 8086, but with a couple of instructions >added to switch modes into 8080 emulation. Overall, emulation was pretty >good, but should have been Z80 instead of 8080 and there were a couple of >small bugs in the emulation that weren't fixed. The V series were 1982 introduction. I was with NEC on the launch. By then >Most vendors used the V20/V30, however, because they were low-power CMOS. >They also implemented some of the 80186 entensions, like ENTER and LEAVE >and PUSHA/POPA and multi-bit immediate count shifts like SHR AX,5. If >you've got an old 8088/8086 box and need to run some code compiled to use >the 186/286 extensions, the V20/V30 is a very neat drop-in solution. Not initially, The first generation of Vseries were NMOS. I have samples of both. The other differences were internal effective address calculation was handled differntly from 8088 which shaved a few cycles of the execution. For the same clock V series were between 5-10% faster. Also the V20/V30 had 8080 emulation. Allison

20 years, 8 months

6
8
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3.25" diskettes

by cclist＠sydex.com

I was chatting with someone else who prides himself on computer arcana and I mentioned that I had some 3.25" diskettes and drives. He said "You must mean 3" diskettes." "No, I mean 3.25" soft-jacket Dysan microfloppies" says I. "Never heard of such a thing" replies he. So I sent him a photo of a diskette and a drive (I've got two drives and a box of diskettes). How rare are these things? Cheers, Chuck

20 years, 8 months

12
24
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PDP-11/73 booting!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:01:12 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >OK, but that would be unusual, and not exactly standard :-) Was that >a protoype? Nope. Early production with 11/23B orginally. If you have/had a BA23 DD and printset you find there are a lot of variations some are just mainline and some for specific customers. for example the LS-spec stuff for TELCO. >You could certainly use Q22-CD slots for 11/23-compatible >memory -- yes, I know the microPDP11/23 is just a KDF11-B with >different ROMs -- and I've never seen a BA23 that wasn't 3 x Q22-CD >plus 5 x Q22-Q22, which is what the tech manuals and maintenance >manuals I have describe. I don't even know of any other 4 x 8 >backplane that could fit. Actually there are three that fit and two with the right connector (molex style pins). the CD slots mean nothing if your using quad width memory but it's a big differnce if your using dual width. >Well if you started with a fully-serpentine Q22-Q22 backplane, the >microVAX memory would need it changed, because the cards talk to each >other using the CD-interconnect, which I'd forgotten (but not AFAIK for >CPU/memory transfers, which are over the top). The front panel, >though, is the same except for the badge, everywhere I've seen. The >console/SLU panel, the *back* panel, is different, of course. uVAX-II and 11/73B need/require over the top. 11/23B (and 11/73A) is strictly Q22. I happen to have the earlier non-pmi 11/73. And of course the uVAXII. Allison

20 years, 8 months

1
0
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Acorn IEEE488 interface

by eelco＠huininga.nl

Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? It seems like almost nothing has survived... Cheers, Eelco

20 years, 8 months

6
14
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CUBIX/6809 updates

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

Hello Dave. True, I used JavaScript to display the navigation tree at the left side. But the page describing the home-brew pdp8/e running on 6809 is here: www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html It started with some hardware to connect a (homebrew) console to the serial port of a computer which runs SIMH. With a few changes in SIMH you can have bi-directional communication between SIMH and the console thus give (in this case) the PDP-11 SIMH a "real" console. It does all that a real console also does, hence the project name "RealConsole". Also, check out http://www.noicedebugger.com/index.html if you want to start on 6809. It gives you an "emulator" on your PC, connected to the 6809 target system. The best part is that especially for the 6809, it's free! I asked John, told him what I was doing, and I got a license. You must put some code on the target simple, but it is fairly simple. As the "pdp8/e" is built on the 6809, it can of course run 6809 code. In the SIMH version EPROM is a disassembler and a small BASIC interpreter, as there was room left in the EPROM. The IDE interface (with adapter to put in a CompactFlash Card) is connected to the I/O board, so it is not fast, but gives mass storage. The IDE routines are of course written in 6809 assembler and not pdp8/e code :-) So, the low-level access routines are there as a layer for an OS, etc. Implementing a DOS (FAT-12) would make it possible to connect the CF Card to a PC and get file transfer that way. Pulling out the CF Card, sticking it in the PC etc. was not my idea, I liked a floppy disk better for this job, so I ordered 2793's from bgmicro. Using the pdp8/e design fron panel for the 6809 is possible, but ... there are only 15 Address LEDs (12 plus 3 for EMA), and the other row is 12 LEDs, so the upper 4 would not be used. The rotary knob could be used to display A or B (or DP or CC) but to display X, Y, U, SP, PC you need 16 LEDs. There are just 12 switches, and you could use the SW switch as the 13th, but still, to enter a 16-bit address would be cumbersome. So, the pdp8/e panel is not the best choice, but the implementation -hardware wise- is always possible. Software is what makes it 'tick' :-) and I am sure that's "piece of cake" for you, Dave. Recenty I won an HP2117 console panel and a full 11/70 panel on eBay, and I want to connect those two panels with a Core and I/O Board to SIMH too. Then there is the resurrection of all my PDP-11 (real) machines now that I have finally power in the little museum. It's clear, I have way to many project going ... When I pick up the 6809 stuff, I will certainly take a good look at your code, and mention you on my website. thanks for sharing great stuff! - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield > Sent: zondag 11 december 2005 21:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: CUBIX/6809 updates > > > Great Dave. > > I will soon be picking up the intended floppy disk > interface for my 6809 board (Blinkenlight project). > > I must definately have a better look at your pages! Your site was > > already known to me :-) Perhaps I should not put so much > work in my 6809 code, but grab yours. But then I'll ask first! > > Hi Henk, > > I've heard about your project, but don't know much about it > (Your pages requirement to run code on my machine put me off > - even if my browser was modern enough to understand it - > which it isn't). > > I was under the impression that in your project the 6809 > performing emulation and front panel control --- Can you > boot/run "native" 6809 code in your design? It would be quite > neat to see the system running with a front panel. (One of > things I always "wanted to do" was build up a front-panel > machine around the 09 - just never did). > > CUBIX no longer has commercial value, and I've made it > available for free with no restrictions. > I'd appreciate it if you let me know if you use it (or parts > of it) in any other published projects, and if so, due credit > and possibly a link back to my site would be nice... > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: > www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

20 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

PDP-11/73 booting!

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Dec 12 2005, 16:20, Allison wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> > >All the ones I've ever seen in the field are the same regardless of > >whther for microPDP-11 or microVAX. I can't see why the microVAX one > >would be different; the microPDP has the CD slots for PMI but the > >microVAX doesn't care -- it uses over-the-top connections for the > >memory. > > > >The BA23 backplane for a microPDP-11 is an H9278-A and does indeed have > >three slots Q22-CD followed by five serpentine Q22-Q22. That's the > >same as my microVAX. And that agrees with the Tech Manuals I have. > > Ah, but it doesnt agree with mine. You can use the H9278 for Qbus -11 > but if you want to maximize the slots there was a differnt early option > BA23 that had no CD slots(all were AB serpentine) as none of the > processors before the PMI equipped 11/73 used PMI. Early microPDP-11s > wer really 11/23Bs. As a result there really were two similar but > not exactly the same flavors. OK, but that would be unusual, and not exactly standard :-) Was that a protoype? You could certainly use Q22-CD slots for 11/23-compatible memory -- yes, I know the microPDP11/23 is just a KDF11-B with different ROMs -- and I've never seen a BA23 that wasn't 3 x Q22-CD plus 5 x Q22-Q22, which is what the tech manuals and maintenance manuals I have describe. I don't even know of any other 4 x 8 backplane that could fit. > I know the gory details as my BA23 uVAX > was hacked from the uPDP-11 and I needed a differnt backplane > (memory compatability) and the front pannel insert for the drive > control was different. Well if you started with a fully-serpentine Q22-Q22 backplane, the microVAX memory would need it changed, because the cards talk to each other using the CD-interconnect, which I'd forgotten (but not AFAIK for CPU/memory transfers, which are over the top). The front panel, though, is the same except for the badge, everywhere I've seen. The console/SLU panel, the *back* panel, is different, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

PDP-11/73 booting!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:41:06 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Dec 12 2005, 15:03, Allison wrote: > >> The BA23 came with a microPDP-11 backplane or one for the uVAX-II. >> While the differences are small when used with care they are >differnt. >> For the PDP-11 use the MicroPDP11 backplane is desired as the uVAX >> one has three slots that are CD wired for PMI bussed memory. >> the DISK interface and distribution board in the back of the drive >> cavity however are the same. > >All the ones I've ever seen in the field are the same regardless of >whther for microPDP-11 or microVAX. I can't see why the microVAX one >would be different; the microPDP has the CD slots for PMI but the >microVAX doesn't care -- it uses over-the-top connections for the >memory. > >The BA23 backplane for a microPDP-11 is an H9278-A and does indeed have >three slots Q22-CD followed by five serpentine Q22-Q22. That's the >same as my microVAX. And that agrees with the Tech Manuals I have. Ah, but it doesnt agree with mine. You can use the H9278 for Qbus -11 but if you want to maximize the slots there was a differnt early option BA23 that had no CD slots(all were AB serpentine) as none of the processors before the PMI equipped 11/73 used PMI. Early microPDP-11s wer really 11/23Bs. As a result there really were two similar but not exactly the same flavors. I know the gory details as my BA23 uVAX was hacked from the uPDP-11 and I needed a differnt backplane (memory compatability) and the front pannel insert for the drive control was different. At the time I was a Digit so getting the pieces from the systems lab was easy. Allison

20 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

PDP-11/73 booting!

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Dec 12 2005, 15:03, Allison wrote: > The BA23 came with a microPDP-11 backplane or one for the uVAX-II. > While the differences are small when used with care they are differnt. > For the PDP-11 use the MicroPDP11 backplane is desired as the uVAX > one has three slots that are CD wired for PMI bussed memory. > the DISK interface and distribution board in the back of the drive > cavity however are the same. All the ones I've ever seen in the field are the same regardless of whther for microPDP-11 or microVAX. I can't see why the microVAX one would be different; the microPDP has the CD slots for PMI but the microVAX doesn't care -- it uses over-the-top connections for the memory. The BA23 backplane for a microPDP-11 is an H9278-A and does indeed have three slots Q22-CD followed by five serpentine Q22-Q22. That's the same as my microVAX. And that agrees with the Tech Manuals I have. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

PDP-11/73 booting!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: Doc Shipley <doc at mdrconsult.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:59:26 -0500 > To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: > >> >> Certainly if you can find a BA23 with the rack kit that would be an ideal >> solution just make sure it has the PDP-11 backplane (can have a different >> one for VAX). Then you can transfer the modules you have to it and have >> more usable slots as the backplane is 18 slots (ABAB config). There's >> a plus you'll have the distribution board for the in box mounted RX >> and RD drives. > > Can you elaborate on this? > > I'm running a PDP-11/53 and a PDP-11/83 in BA23s that originally >housed MV-IIs. I never knew there's a difference. The BA23 came with a microPDP-11 backplane or one for the uVAX-II. While the differences are small when used with care they are differnt. For the PDP-11 use the MicroPDP11 backplane is desired as the uVAX one has three slots that are CD wired for PMI bussed memory. the DISK interface and distribution board in the back of the drive cavity however are the same. So if you have a uPDP-11 ba23 you have the disti board and all you need is a 50pin to 50pin to connect that to the RQDXn and the from there the needed (short) cables to the specific drives. Allison

20 years, 8 months

1
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