- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by dm561＠torfree.net

Does anybody have a current email address for Don in Tucson, apparently no longer at THX1138 at dakotacom.net (or are you reading this, Don?) mike

19 years, 5 months

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Chuck Guzis

by dm561＠torfree.net

Chuck: Tried to send you an email off-list at cclist at sydex but got rejected as spam; have you got another address where I could reach you? mike

19 years, 5 months

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some old stuff

by andrew＠taswegian.com

Hey all I've been in and out of the classic computer collecting 'circles' over the past decade and a half, but these days don't have much time to play with the old toys. I thought I'd divest myself of some of the items that I've been collecting and though I wasn't sure if it were appropriate to advertise 'for sale' on the list, it's probably OK to let people know that I have these items and that I'll be happy to provide pictures and/or information for historical reasons. If you are interested in trade/sale discussion please contact me privately (andrew - at - taswegian.com). General questions about functionality/history can go to the list. I have a DataNumerics DL-8A. This is possibly the only one still alive, certainly the only one I've heard of in a decade+ in collectors' hands. It's a front-panel machine very much like an early Altair - lots of blinking lights. Very nice visuals, and appears to work perfectly - I fire it up every year or so. Inside it's an 8080, I think - haven't had it open for a while. Totally wirewrapped, quite neatly made. and with a low serial number in the 20s, from memory. I'll be happy to do images and/or provide additional information as requested. I also have a Dulmont Magnum with original manual. This is one of the very first laptops, comes with a fold-up 4-line LCD display. I haven't had this one working, nor have I tried. I'd be guessing to say it was functional, but there are no obvious issues like battery damage, etc. Weighs a ton, but for its day it was no doubt a portable marvel. I do have an extensive collection of early Soviet calculators and handheld computers. I collected most of these in the mid to late '90s when building my site Museum of Soviet Calculators - http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/soviet.html . The collection includes a prototype or two, including one of the only two known MK-98 machines. The collection as a whole (100 machines?), but not individually is available for trade/sale. Finally, I have a very interesting homebrew machine built by a fairly well known Australian electrical wizard of the '70s and '80s, who published many articles in the aussie electronics magazines. This particular machine was a Signetics 2650 machine, but configured to run 8080 code (and hence, CP/M) through a software emulator. The whole machine, including the video card, was designed and built by the one guy and can be considered historical and one-of-a-kind. That's about it, really. If anyone would like pictures and/or further information on these just ask. Cheers A

19 years, 5 months

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beware: "Microsoft BASIC" paper tape on eBay

by frustum＠pacbell.net

I'm away from home right now so I can't check, but the "5K BASIC" was really about 6.5K. I imagine 5K was what their target was and what the advertised and presold it as while it was still under development. Even though it ballooned to 6.5K by the time they were done, they kept calling it 5K BASIC. Extended cassette BASIC was close to 16KB. Besides adding string support, it also has the "MAT" statement set and a bunch of other features. Nevertheless, it seemed pretty big for its feature set. So, I'd agree with Al, this is probably 5K BASIC. ----- Original Message ---- From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:46:24 PM Subject: beware: "Microsoft BASIC" paper tape on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230107368051 You can read the first dozen bytes in the picture, which are 7 bit ASCII, starting with 1010000 1010010 1001111 "PROCESSOR TECHNOLOGY BASIC" most likely 4K Proc Tech BASIC, given the tape length.. Jim B. could probably confirm that.

19 years, 5 months

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single transistor projects?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: single transistor projects? > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:28:29 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Tony Duell wrote: > >> >> These days, you can get 9V (PP3, 006P, 6F22, whatever you call them) >> batteries very cheaply in the 'Everything's a pound' shops (I assume you >> have similar shops that sell all sorts of things for a dollar a time). 5 >> to 10 of those in series will work as B battery, of couse. > >Well you can still buy a B battery here on this side of the pond. >http://www.tubesandmore.com/ Its way OT but I run a RCA tube portable off 10 9V and 4 "C" cells and it's very satisfactory. I took the old battery skin (cardboard label) and made a wood box inside of it to hold the batteries so it even looks like the real thing. Besides being the best AM broadcast radio I have it's an attention getter. Runs for about 20 hours on alkaline C cells and the 10 9V batteries usually outlast 3 to 4 sets of C cells. >> Personally, I'd use a mains supply. a 30V transformer (15-0-15, ignoring >> the centre tape or a pair of 15V windings in series) feeding a voltage >> doubler rectifier (2 diodes, 2 capacitors) will give about 85V, ideal for >> most 'battery' valve circuits. > >They also sell a power pack kit too for small radios. >I suspect if you dig around over there you can scounge up >a better power supply, for the simple reason parts are whole >lot cheaper now than in one's youth. I have a PS I did using power mosfets and a tapewound toroid I wound up. Full wave bridge and filter. Also it's adjustable and regulated from 80 to 200V which makes it ideal for small tube projects (power limit is ~40W). Allison

19 years, 5 months

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single transistor projects?

by wbblair3＠yahoo.com

> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:12:40 -0700 > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Subject: Re: single transistor projects? > > William Blair wrote: > > > Is this it?: > TINY URL: > > > 125 One-Transistor Projects (1970) > > http://tinyurl.com/2fzqhm > > BIG URL: > http://www.somerset.net/arm/fm_only_one_transistor_radio.html > http://www.somerset.net/arm/fm_only_lowtech.html Wasn't the original poster asking about a book on one-transistor projects that he used back in the late 60s? I don't get the TINY URL, BIG URL humor (if any was intended). Wm Blair ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

19 years, 5 months

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IBM PS/2 Model 25

by ddsnyder＠zoominternet.net

Still cleaning out... up for relocation: 1 IBM PS/2 Model 25, completely functional. Boots to DOS, has WordPerfect 5.1, 640K ram, 20Meg hard drive. What a head trip waiting for it to boot and then listening to the HD access, retro.. Dan @ Butler, PA

19 years, 5 months

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BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration

by glen.slick＠gmail.com

On 3/20/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > You might want to keep your eye out for a 3rd > party disk controller with the bootstrap built in. That's a good point. I have more than one Emulex QD21, a Dilog DQ696, and a Sigma RDQ11, which are all Q-bus ESDI controllers and they all have firmware with boot and built-in formatting support. They were much cheaper on eBay than Q-bus SCSI controllers, although SCSI drives are basically free and you'll pay something for an ESDI drive, but not as much as for a large working MFM drive. Another plus of a SCSI controller is that you might be able to use it to boot a SCSI CD-ROM. I have that working with a Dilog SQ706A SCSI controller and a Plextor SCSI CD-ROM in my 11/73. But if you do have a working RQDX3 and working RD drives it's probably still cheaper to get a board you can put a boot ROM on. That's an exercise I haven't gone through myself, yet. -Glen

19 years, 5 months

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IBM PS/2 Model 30

by ddsnyder＠zoominternet.net

Another machine for whoever wants it. It's an IBM PS/2 Model 30, complete with DOS and 20Meg hard drive. I powered up the machine and was greeted with a classic DOS menu showing games and WordPerfect 5.1 available to use. This machine is in excellent condition, been stored inside. Dan @ Butler, PA 16001

19 years, 5 months

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Hex Keypad

by doug＠stillhq.com

On the subject of Blinken lights and toggle switches, I have had difficulties finding decent mechanical keyswitches to use for projects. Essentially, I need to make a hex keypad, with a couple of extra function keys. I know that now we would simply get a membrane rubber thing made up, but once upon a time, I would purchase 20 mechanical switches, and solder them to veroboard. Sadly, I can't find a source of these switches any more..... Same applies to ACSII keyboards - I am fully aware that I could get a PC keyboard and a microcontroller and have ASCI out - but that is 'yet another pc keyboard' Any ideas? Doug

19 years, 5 months

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John Backus passes away...

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > > On 21 Mar 2007 at 12:12, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> I used Fortran 4 on the IBM 7094 at Imperial College London. I >> remember one day the compiler reported: > > I used FORTRAN II under FMS II on the 7090 but never saw a FORTRAN IV > implementation there. It's been entirely too long ago, but, as I > recall, one punched a "B" in column 1 for boolean expressions, "D" > for double-precision and "I" for complex, as FORTRAN II still relied > on implicit typing for variables. > > One of the most diagnostic-bald versions of FORTRAN I ever used was > the "USA BASIC FORTRAN" under DOS/360. The thing couldn't have had > more than about 10 diagnostic messages, most of them single-word. One of my bosses at Marconi Avionics thought that compilers should only have one error message because as a compiler cannot find all errors (such as a mistyped number), you should not rely on it to find errors in your programs. You should only ever submit 100% correct code to the compiler. I think he worked on the Jaguar aircraft's flight program, so there is some justification in that field where a software error could cause a fast jet to take out a street or two of a city. >> I was used to syntax error messages by the dozen but this was the >> first time I had seen the compiler correct an error and run the >> job. Of >> course we are used to warnings now, but I think it was that one >> which >> got me interested enough in compilers to eventually get a job >> writing >> them. > > Pat could probably fill in details here, but Purdue for many years > used 7090/94's to run a student variant of FORTRAN called PUFFT. The > basic idea was for the compiler to 'fix" as many errors as possible > so that a program would run somehow. I believe it was described by > Saul Rosen in an ACM paper and republished in one of those > "Programming Languages Survey" books. IIRC, the 709x were also used > as I/O front ends for the CDC 6600 there, which ran Purdue's own > variant of MACE, rather than the more-or-less standard SCOPE. Greg > Mansfield was pretty proud of that. It was indeed PUFFT that I used, around 1969 when I was a schoolboy. >> If you stuck to floating point and small numbers but there were big >> problems with word length variations when using integers. > > IIRC, the 32-bit floating point word (with 4-bit normalization > granularity) of S/360 cost IBM a bunch of business in the > "scientific" world. It had one of the lowest-precision FP > representation of big iron at the time. I believe that IBM > eventually remedied this with "extended precision". Interesting. I guess that's why, after the 7094, the University of London used no(?) IBMs, just CDC and ICL machines until minis came along. >> I seem to remember that some of the people who taught me to program >> considered Fortran to be too close to the 7094 instruction set, in >> particular they said the computed goto mapped directly onto a 7094 >> instruction and >> hence considered it to be not very universal, and to support it >> would be to >> assist IBM in its domination of the computer market. > > That must have been some clever propganda on the part of someone! > But conspiracy theories have always been popular. Computed GOTOs > weren't exactly the dominant feature of most programs--and they were > implemented as simple indexed jumps for the most part--a feature > scarcely unique to IBM hardware! > > For small systems, FORTRAN was amazingly useful. The other day, I > ran across some code that I wrote for CP/M to convert between ISIS-II > and CP/M file formats--in FORTRAN. > > Compiler design has come a long way since. In the 1970's, I recall > that a co-worker pushed a PTR in front of my face that was, frankly, > quite surprising. CDC FTN for years allowed an alternative way of > expressing Hollerith constants using any arbitrary delimiter > character, so 5HCHUCK and H*CHUCK* were equivalent ways of expressing > the same constant. Most people used asterisks or the not-equal > symbol (the standard character set didn't have quotation marks), but > the compiler would allow just about anything. > > The statement in question looked something like this: > > 100 FORMAT( HX)=(1+BX ) > > Recall, that prior to FORTRAN 90, FORTRAN had no reserved words. Yes that does look weird at first sight. Probably later version of Fortran were better, but version 4 was just so restrictive, after using Algol's For..Step..Until..Do.. with expressions, I could not really go back to Fortran IV's for statements with single, simple unsigned integer constants for the start, end and step values. Roger.

19 years, 5 months

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software (actually anything classic computer related) directory

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

Some mention has been made on the list with regards to a "global" list of classic computer related artifacts, be those documents (manuals), software bits, other historical ephemera, etc. The concept I've been working with is defining a standard record format for interchange amongst those that wish to participate. Think of this as something like ANSI X.12 (Electronic Data Interchange). Each site who wants to participate would (in an automated fashion) periodically (nightly?) run a program or process that takes data about their collection items and puts it into this standard record format. The format has things like document name, title, description, document type, owner site, http vs. ftp, URL, FTP address, email contact, date, key words, categories, distribution allowed, etc. For example, a program could pretty easily be created that would take all the documents on bitsavers and puts them into this standard record format. Then the source systems send this record dump (or deltas from a previous dump) to the classiccmp server. The classiccmp server takes all these records from all the various sites and puts them together into a single database internally, and also provides a seamless mechanism (http, and yes... gopher, archie?) for people to search the database or browse based on given criteria. It looks like one database. But when a user tries to pull up one of the specific entries it is actually redirected to the sponsoring systems server to get the data. This way each system can keep their classic data (jpegs, pdfs, disk images, whatever) in the format they are already using without changing anything. They just need to have something that takes their format/sources and puts it into the standard format which is then sync'd to classiccmp.org. Provisions could be made to the standard record format to address all types of media, allow some items to be listed as "present" but "unavailable" for things that can't be released due to copyright issues (but at least people would know it had been preserved). I'd be happy to start a separate mailing list to discuss this record format, and if people are interested in participating. I'd hate to chew up cctalk/cctech bandwidth discussing project design :) Jay

19 years, 5 months

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Anyone have a KDJ11-B or MXV11-B for trade

by dbetz＠xlisper.com

Does anyone on the list have a KDJ11-B CPU or an MXV11-B module for trade. if so, what are you looking for in return? Thanks, David Betz

19 years, 5 months

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Crossbar and NeWS questions

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

Brent Hilpert wrote: > Scott Quinn wrote: > > > > (1) What is the history of the crossbar in computer architectures as a > > mainbus replacement? > > I recall reading an article in Annals of the History of Computing about a > late 60's era mainframe in which memory and multiple processors were > connected via some sort of crossbar/matrix switching arrangement. > I think it was a Burroughs machine but my memory could be wrong on that even. CMU did a parallel machine like that using PDP-11/40s. They used 16 machines and 16 memory banks. It was called C.mmp. I think for me, reconstructing that would be the ultimate in classic geek. Also, while I haven't watched all that carefully, I'm sure there are others who have also used crossbars to route inter-processor communication. I even messed around with that approach a little. BLS

19 years, 5 months

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computercollectables.blogspot.com comments welcome

by caveguy＠sbcglobal.net

WAS: Don Maslin/Archiving system software >Any thoughts yet about how to organize it? >mike In answer to mikes question... Yes and on a lot of levels ... BUT I am in full agreement with Jay that it is OT for this list and further discussion it does not belong on the cclist at this point in time. So I have place my reply and some thoughts on the subject in a seperate Blog. http://computercollectables.blogspot.com/ I invite others to come and comment on mine mutterings or create a free blog of their own, on this or any other computer, collector, collection, or collectable related subject. I like the idea that Blogs on related subjects can be cross linked using comments to form a better overall picture of the challenges involved in building everyones collection and archive management solution. Sorry Jay for the additional waste of bandwidth ;-) Please comment directly or in/on the blog NOT here on this list! Back under my rock.... Bob Bradlee

19 years, 5 months

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Various DEC bits available in the UK, you pay shipping to wherever

by witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk

Folks, My local favourite DEC reseller has the following heading for the scrapper unless someone pipes up: 8 or 9 Alpha 3000-300LX with RAM, working when pulled 10+ DEREPs VAX 3800 cabinet, no cards R400X cabinet, no disks 5+ VXT2000 x-terms, base unit only 5+ VXT2000+ x-terms, base unit only They've been stored outside for a month so they've had a good wash in the british winter, but they'll be fine once dried. You pay packing/shipping, I'm happy to box up and send to wherever, there's palletising facilities at work. Caveat is, the stuff will probably be heading to the recycler in a week's time so speak up now. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection?

19 years, 5 months

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AIM65 (was Why blinkenlights ?)

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 23:49:13 -0700 From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Why blinkenlights ? M H Stein wrote: >> --------------- >> I don't think that's the kind of micro he meant; my AIM65s had a >> full keyboard and alphanumeric display in '79 (AND an onboard >> PRINTER!) >Did the AIM65's run any software? >The Z80 was a S-100 design, but the lack of a good >power supply was my problem. ------------------- Well, unlike the Altair, a computer that didn't run any software wouldn't have sold very well in 1979; what do you call software, and how much'll you let me expand it? They did have BASIC, Forth and PL/65 (and an assembler of course), Serial I/O and two expansion busses, but although you could connect a terminal and disk drives I think CP/M would be a bit of a challenge... wouldn't want to run a Fortune 500's accounting on it and end up like the Enron & Worldcom boys (and our very own Lord Black of Crossharbour, presently starring in Chicago ;-). But being (AC-powered) portable with a full keyboard and an integral 20 or 40 column display & printer, there were quite a few applications for them on their own (e.g. insurance agents used them on the road, later moving to the more or less functionally equivalent but smaller Panasonic HHC). They were also used a fair bit in the lab & industrial area. m

19 years, 5 months

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Early WLAN

by steve＠radiorobots.com

Hi All, Looking for documentation on early WLAN. Specifically, WinData, SpectraLink, and WaveRider. Any comments or info appreciated Steve

19 years, 5 months

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nice Q-bus microvax on ebay

by legalize＠xmission.com

Item # 250096417081 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 5 months

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Hosting and Bandwidth [was] .......

by aek＠bitsavers.org

>> Well for me I want to know just what I can download off a bitsavers >> mirror. > Overall that's up to Al, but each mirror may have some preferences as well. I have to compose a much longer post about everything discussed in the past week while I was gone. I did want to say thank you to Jay for supporting the main bitsavers archive site, and that I support whatever he would like to do to continue hosting it. I am a believer in preservation through replication, which is why there are public mirrors of the material. More thoughts as I finish going through everything discussed while I was gone.

19 years, 5 months

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BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:18:57 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 3/21/07, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: >> I wrote >> > Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height and >> > is a CPU only >> >> I'm using a KDJ11A and it boots RX02/RL02/MSCP devices with the right >> jumper setup. If memory serves the dual width J11 baord has rom on baord >> for standard device boot. My Docs for that board are burried. > >I think you must have your boot ROM on another board in your system... > >http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardwar… > >-ethan It's possible since I configured that system nearly 10 years ago and it hasn't been opened since save for cleaning the fans. The only board that could have a boot rom would be the RQDX3. I'll have to check net time I clean the fans. Allison

19 years, 5 months

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KDJ11-A info location on net

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Rather than dig out the manual I found this for the KDJ11-A.. http://hampage.hu/dr/kdj11a.html#jumpers Hope it helps. Allison

19 years, 5 months

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BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: BA23 setup and DZQ11 configuration > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:33:10 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 3/21/07, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > Either that or a trade of a KDJ11-BB or maybe -BF >> > for my KDJ11-AA and some other stuff? >> >> Can't you just burn a boot ROM and put it on the CPU >> board? I was under the impression you could. If so, I >> have an EPROM burner and can burn an EPROM if you >> want. > >Dave has nowhere to stuff a ROM. The KDJ11-A board is dual-height and >is a CPU only, no peripherals (yes, in the mini-computer world, boot >ROMs aren't always integral - if you have a front panel, you don't >"need" ROMs, even if they are handy for fast startup). I'm using a KDJ11A and it boots RX02/RL02/MSCP devices with the right jumper setup. If memory serves the dual width J11 baord has rom on baord for standard device boot. My Docs for that board are burried. Allison

19 years, 5 months

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Hosting and Bandwidth [was] .......

by fsmith＠ladylinux.com

On Wednesday 21 March 2007 12:23:14 am Francesca Smith wrote: Hiya, Not to interject myself into this conversation. But I will :-) But I went to bitsavers and looked high and low and did not see anything that indicated they were perhaps looking for funding for their efforts. Now while what they do is Noble and all. One can not eat a Noble since I heard they are kinda tough and chewy. In any case perhaps people just need to be able to have a way to contribute towards these fine endeavors. ?? -- Kindest Regards, Francesca Smith "No Problems Only Solutions" Lady Linux Internet Services Baltimore, Maryland 21217

19 years, 5 months

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MSC/Xebec HD controller "geekpron" pix available

by onymouse＠garlic.com

I dug deep into the catacombs this past weekend and discovered some interesting ancient relics. Among them I found sound remnants of two Microcomputer Systems Corp/Xebec hard disk controllers that were recently mentioned and took some close-up shots of them. One is a single-board ST506 disk controller with GPIB interface, PCB assy# 104506 Rev 02, without the 8048 and EPROM. Front and back shots, JPEGs of 380 to 309Kb each. Much better resolution than the manuals show: Can see part numbers on most IC's, see where jumpers go and read color bands on resistors and chokes. Shot in daytime shade, no flash to reduce reflections and glare. Contrast is a bit low. The other is a 3 board assembly that might be a SASI controller with GPIB interface, sans 8048, EPROM and 9914. There are shots of front and back of each of the three boards and a shot of the three assembled. JPEGs of 360 to 380Kb each. Shot in daytime shade, no flash to reduce reflections and glare. I suspect that someone might find them useful or at least interesting to look at but I have no place to put them at the moment. If someone is interested in them, please do let me know. It would probably be best to ftp them to you, as I doubt they are small enough for mail. -- jd If you keep anything long enough, you can throw it away.

19 years, 5 months

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Floppy Disk Controller evaluation / characterization

by dave06a＠dunfield.com

Hi Guys, I've just posted to my site TESTFDC 1.0, which is a small utility that will test your floppy controller for single/double density operation at all data rates available to your drives - including the special case of MFM with 128 byte sectors (Of all the machines I've got here, only ONE passes that test!). This should make it a bit easier to find PC/drive combinations that will work with ImageDisk. I've also started a "registry" of mainboards and add-in controllers with the TESTFDC results - this is posted to the site as well, currently it's very small and not overly useful (just the hardware I've tested), however I hope that with your help it may grow to be at least somewhat useful. If anyone can provide information for hardware not currently listed, that would be very much appreciated. Regards. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html

19 years, 5 months

2
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Vintage terminals (was Re: PDP-11 available in New Zealand)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 3/8/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On Mar 8, 2007, at 1:55 PM, Richard wrote: > > If you do and don't want the VT52, I'll buy it :) > > You're just a terminal-obsessed freak, and you know it! ;) For stuff of the era, the VT-52 is a very handy terminal. I don't recall my results with a VT100 or CiTOH-101 (clone), but I was *not* able to use the VTEDIT macro under OS/8 with a VT220 in VT52 emulation mode. The emulation just wasn't good enough. I suppose one could find an open-source terminal program and ensure the VT-52 emulation was up to snuff, but for a plug-it-in-and-get-to-work solution, for pre-VT52 software, I recommend a real VT52. -ethan

19 years, 5 months

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Crossbar and NeWS questions

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

I have two questions that have interested me a little, and as Johnson would put it I know neither the answer nor where to go to find the answer. (1) What is the history of the crossbar in computer architectures as a mainbus replacement? All I know of it is when it hit the desktop, and there it looks like it arrived first in the DEC 3000 AXP (not sure if this includes the 300 series or not), and then spread around the middle of the '90s with Sun picking it up as UPA and SGI going whole-hog for it. I assume it came down from mainframes or supercomputers, possibly a Control Data design? (2) What was the UI like on Sun's pre-OpenLook implementation of NeWS (or was there one?) Did it leverage SunView, or were parts of it similar to SGIs 4Sight?

19 years, 5 months

2
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Why blinkenlights ?

by dm561＠torfree.net

------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:26:54 -0700 From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Why blinkenlights ? >Jos Dreesen wrote: >> So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? >I had Z80 kit around 1983 with keyboard and 7 segment display. --------------- I don't think that's the kind of micro he meant; my AIM65s had a full keyboard and alphanumeric display in '79 (AND an onboard PRINTER!) ;-) mike

19 years, 5 months

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Free to a good home

by ddsnyder＠zoominternet.net

To all, Seems my last post started something. I listed the Imsai, PolyMorphic and Sol 20 only as examples of what's in my collection. Sorry for any problems that may have started. One should never rush into a post (in real life as well). When I post additional items for free, I'll make sure not to include any references to my collection. Sorry, Dan Snyder

19 years, 5 months

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Why blinkenlights ?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Why blinkenlights ? > From: Jos Dreesen <jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch> > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 21:18:40 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I am currenly contemplating what kind of IO to put on my coming i8008 >system : what is it that makes blinkenlights (i.e. leds and switches ) >seem so attractive ? > >It must be about the worst possible way to interact with a computer... > > >So why is it then that almost all early micros had them ? > >a 7segment display with keyboard ( as in a H8) is clearly more usable, >and would have cost nothing more. Or were early eproms (for the monitor >program) that expensive ? > > Jos For it's era it was low cost (compared to 1702 Eproms) and it provided the ability to debug the hardware. Also t was flexible as it was both IO and allowed program entry and crude debug (single step). Early systems also lacked software to interact with and often what was available had the have the IO altered for to match the available IO. This was very true for the 8008 generation and remained true for the early 8080 generation. Later systems such as the H8 were better but also really represented a new subspecies of systems leading to the turnkey based systems. Personally I felt it was the first 6800 (and 6502) based systems that made switches and lights outmoded by using a standard console IO and a rom based monitor program to do the functions that a hardware front pannel provides. By then ROMs/Eproms had dropped in price and the hardware saved was enough made it far less expensive. Allison

19 years, 5 months

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11/45 works, but....

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

The 11/45 has booted an OS for the first time since I got it. RT11 came right up. Interrupts are working. Awesome :) That's actually very satisfying because the machine was in very rough shape when I got it. After fixing the power supply (which was a new problem, unrelated to the previous interrupt issue I think), I started growing the configuration back to where I wanted it to be in little increments... like adding the BA11K back in (with nothing in it, just the 930). Then putting in the M9312, Then adding in the unibus memory, RL controller, dropping the core out of the picture, etc.... and testing between each small step. It got back to the full config and still interrupts are working. So, unfortunately I'm not sure what actually fixed the problem which is a little unsettling. But it was a big thrill to see the RT11 prompt :) That being said, I am using a borrowed set of cpu boards. Over the next few sessions I plan to start adding my boards back in one at a time and I'm betting some of them won't work so I'll still be looking for help to repair those (and that will also help me understand the machine better). Note that the interrupt problem occured with the same borrowed cpu boards, but now it's gone. Odd. Another oddity reared it's head. The system was very stable with just the RL controller. I then installed an RX02 (M8256) controller (and removed the NPR jumper for that slot). I turned on the system but left the RL02 turned off. The RX02 worked perfectly. Then I turned on the RL02. It powered up ok (no fault) but when I spin it up I got a fault light. It is not the drive, nor is it the pack. If I shut everything down and leave the RX02 drive powered off (but controller still installed), the RL02 will come up fine and not fault. So there is apparently something that the RL controller doesn't like about the RX02 controller? The NPR jumper is removed for the two slots where the RL and RX controllers are, but definitely present in all other slots. I'm also soliciting advice on memory configuration. The processor has 16Kw core in the system chassis. I don't own any MOS/Bipolar. I have two unibus 64Kw memory boards (M7891 I think it is). My plan was to run the system with one 64Kw unibus board, hold the other for spare, and leave the core disconnected. I know I can run RT11 ok in 64kw. But based on requirements for other things like RSTS, etc... am I better off leaving the 16kw of core connected? In other words, for most DEC OS's on the /45 am I going to have trouble with 64kw but not 80kw? If it won't make a difference in what I can run I'll probably just leave the core disconnected. Thoughts? Thanks! Jay West

19 years, 5 months

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Simtel Walnut Creek CD-ROM (speaking of ftp archives)

by spectre＠floodgap.com

I was trying to find my Simtel Walnut Creek CD and can't (I have no idea where it went). Does anyone have one of these that they would be willing to copy or make an .iso image of? If a physical copy is easier to manage, I'll gladly cover cost of shipping, media and inconvenience; either way, please contact me off list. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. ------------

19 years, 5 months

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ASR33 selector magnet driver card

by djg＠pdp8.net

If you are referring to CR1 and CR2 on the plug in card 181821/181823 they both seem to be 1N4383. One I could read the entire part # and the other all except the last digit.

19 years, 5 months

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Hosting and Bandwidth [was] .......

by ken＠seefried.com

From: Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> > > How do you determine "quality" bandwidth? > If you fail to understand that concept, I know exactly how much credence to give the rest of your technical pronouncements. What is far more telling is that I have few doubts that you know exactly what is meant.

19 years, 5 months

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Nicolet NICE Z80 Emulator

by doug＠stillhq.com

Hi, I have just found a Nicolet NICE Z80 in-circuit emulator. (I used to use one of there years ago in a previous job) Does anybody have a copy of the users manual for the unit, or a rundown on the available commands? Doug

19 years, 5 months

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Hosting and Bandwidth [was] .......

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

I had written.... > When you start paying for symmetric Gbps (note lower case b) that is when > you are more realistically paying for what you are using. And it ain't > $6/mo. It is thousands of dollars per month. Uggg... I apologize for my typo. For symmetric Mbps (note M, not G, and lower case b), THAT is what is thousands per month. Jay

19 years, 5 months

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Don Maslin/Archiving system software

by dm561＠torfree.net

In all the noise I didn't see any replies or comments re my original post (see below) so can I assume there's no one interested in actually setting up a "who's got what and where" directory somewhere, or that it's not a feasible idea? mike ----------Previous message: I've seen it mentioned, but are there actually any plans to host a master catalogue of old software somewhere where people could just list what they have available, with a search mechanism that could essentially look like bitsavers et al and let you select a brand/model/title but instead of (or in addition to) a direct FTP link return a list of web sites and/or email addresses where it could be found or requested? For example (and I doubt that I'm alone in this): I have a bunch of Cromemco software but not the time or even the inclination to copy and archive it in all its various formats, but if anyone ever wanted a copy of something in a specific format (and knew that I have it) I'd be glad to help out, and I could probably find the time to make a list if there were a place for it and an agreed-upon standard for its format and content. Same thing with documentation; I'm not about to scan all the manuals, tech bulletins, etc., but I could make a list and would be happy to scan a few crucial pages if someone needed some specific info. (Note to Al: I haven't forgotten; still working on your pile). I realize that this doesn't address the issue of actually archiving this stuff and I appreciate the efforts of Al and others to make sure that it doesn't disappear, but I suspect there is a lot of software and information out there that can't be found anywhere on the 'Web just because its owner doesn't have the time or doesn't think it's useful; in fact there's probably a fair bit of stuff that people wouldn't even know existed until they saw it listed somewhere. Granted, there'd be dead links etc. after a while (although I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to automatically verify them every now and then), but nevertheless I think it would bring a few useful items out of the woodwork... mike

19 years, 5 months

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Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Unusual platforms for PHP (was: Hosting and Bandwidth) > From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:47:51 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >At 4:04 PM -0400 3/20/07, Bob Bradlee wrote: >>Tonights, ASU dinner meeting is about running PHP with webaccess on >>the AS400 platform. I look forward to picking >>some brains on the subject. IBMcollectables.com should not be hosted >>on a Compaq Proliant server, even if it is an old >>almost classic, Dual Slot 1 PII-400's, SCSI RAID, 512 ECC Ram, in a >>rackmount case with dual supplies, there is >>something just wrong about it :-) >> >>Just some Food for thought ... >>Comments are always welcome, sometimes ignored :) >> >>Bob Bradlee >>The Cave Mutterer > >I've been running PHP on my OpenVMS server for nearly 3 years now. >It can add some interesting capabilities to platforms that wouldn't >otherwise be able to perform certain services, at least not without >writing new software. > >I'd be curious to know which version of PHP is supported on the >AS400, and if you have the opportunity to run MySQL (if so what >version), as it seems to be required by a lot of the more interesting >PHP apps. > >On OpenVMS if the version requirements are met for PHP and MySQL you >have a fairly good chance of getting things to work without to much >effort. > > Zane > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

19 years, 5 months

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Telmat P1085 (Esprit Supernode) - more bad photos of transputer kit!

by andy＠smokebelch.org

Apologies again for the quality of the photos. So this machine has been kept in a damp basement for a while, and on removing a side panel noticed the PSU has become fairly rusty in places. Should I just try and rem\ove all the rust and vacuum / blast it with compressed air? And same for the backplane and cards etc... http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/front.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/side.jpg http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/cage.jpg Since the photos are poor included details of some of the ICs (ones I thought may be of relevance): - Backplane takes up to 7 cards, is marked 'Version A 22/10/89' and has 4 x ceramic 80486 sized ICs marked 'NEC RSRE S01 8714K9'. I don't know what these are but suspect they may be soft configurable devices for transputer link routing. - 1 x mass store, with 4 banks of 36 x HM511000P105 http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/store.jpg - 2 x compute boards, each with 8 mezzanine boards containing an IMST800-G20R and 8 x HM62256LP-8. http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/cn.jpg (mezzanine) http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/cn2.jpg - 1 x P1085 Controller, with amongst other things a Z8053006PSC, ICM7170 RTC, AM2864BDC, 16 x HM62256LP-8, Li battery etc. http://media.emergency-music.org/telmat/controller.jpg >From Googling it looks like this was the target hardware for the Paros system, and so would be booted via a PC. I'm not sure whether the controller card is some kind of minimal host or just responsible for configuring link routing. The case also has provision for disk and tape drives, which may well have been for the future and never implemented in this system. Not sure whether to try and get this up and running or to part with it so someone else can have a go and focus on the Meiko. Andrew ---------------- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org

19 years, 5 months

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Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?)

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Hex Star wrote: The Russian comment is that if someone here does speak russian it would be possible to get Russian hosting in Russia which would prevent us from having to deal with US copyright issues and thus be able to upload whatever we want should some hosting actually get setup, I have 20GB+ of mac files I'd be willing to upload to the archive :-) Billy: I was going to avoid commenting on Hex Star chiding the list for not giving him all our files. But this is too much - Proposing to use a criminal to get around copyright laws. There is enough bull shit going on right now with the US using criminal governments to torture prisoners so that US laws won't be broken. Is that now the modus operandi of US citizens? This is going too far - proposing that we deliberately break the law so this young fellow can get all the software he wants. Isn't it about time to end this thread and ask Hex Star to stop harassing the list? And Hex Star, please learn how to write a sentence. Your messages are almost incoherent - long rambling lines of text with no beginning or end. Surely your keyboard has a Shift key and a period key; please use them and state your ideas more succinctly. Billy

19 years, 5 months

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All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie)

by hexstar＠gmail.com

That was EXTREMELY inappropiate and uncalled for!!! I have called the admin of the list and he is removing that post...that is so uncalled for!!! As for my 68kmla request, what's wrong with requesting help with preserving a archive that the admin has made difficult to archive? The goal of this whole vintage community is to preserve vintage data isn't it?

19 years, 5 months

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All about hexstar (or as we like to call him, hexie)

by andrew.wbeelsoi＠gmail.com

http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/3/20/28 Well worth the read.

19 years, 5 months

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Apologize -ftp archives/archiving system software

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Julian Wolfe wrote: >Time to kill both of these threads. Obviously tempers have gotten out of control. Let's keep it on topic and courteous. > >Jay Funny how this got ignored completely. Billy: Not ignored, but I read messages date code sequential and replied until I saw Jay's message. I apologize to the list and to Jay for dragging this out, even if it was unintentional. Billy

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing?

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Hex Star wrote: Isn't the idea of doing that such that it will get downloaded by others and thus preserved? But then with all the limitations these people put on downloaders this purpose no longer exists which essentially makes the archive useless. Billy: No, that is NOT the purpose of an archive. You miss the point that the purpose of an archive is to download a piece of software or a manual that you need. No everyone wants to accumulate massive files that they don't use. So the limitations DO NOT make an archive useless to someone who actually uses the information. The limitations only affect the mass accumulators, who really don't use the information - they are not users of an archive but rather data farmers. Billy

19 years, 5 months

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ASR33 selector magnet driver card

by ian_primus＠yahoo.com

Well, I was tinkering around with my ASR33 today, and I must have supplied a little too much loop current to it, because it stopped running open. Normally, if nothing is connected to it, it rattles away, printing nothing. I had found in the past that if I connected the RX lines together, it stopped, and I was trying to supply it with a current so I could interface it to something, and it stopped rattling, and removing the current didn't make it go back to rattling. When you unplug it, it rattles a couple times as it loses power. I immediately assumed that I must have blown up one of the probably two or thee transistors in the entire device, so I pulled out the selector magnet driver card to have a look. The diode at the bottom of the card, CR2, is cracked apart! Also, I am noticing that R7 at the top of the card has managed to unsolder itself due to the heat it generates. What is a suitable replacement for CR2? It's hard to read seeming as though it is missing a chunk. CR1 looks to be the same - but I read it as a 1N4smudge3, which is rather hard to cross reference. I found the schematic in the manual, but not a parts list. I'll keep looking, but I figured I would ask the experts here. Unless this was some kind of coincidence, I think I need to double check my 20ma power supply. Thanks! -Ian

19 years, 5 months

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Large data (was Re: ftp archives disappearing?)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 3/20/07, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > (Actually, there's an interesting issue here: "modern" computer users > generally seem to have very little concept of "how big" some piece of data is. > We were all taught to know the limits of the medium, but that seems to have > gone out the window these days. It actually wouldn't surprise me to find that > half the people out there trying to suck down whole sites aren't driven by > greed or lack of consideration, but simply because they don't appreciate that > it's a *lot* of data they're dealing with) Like the time (10 years ago ;-) that a user tried to vi a 30MB file on an old Sun box... he was astonished that he couldn't do it. The problem was that vi wanted to buffer the edits in /var/tmp which had about 10MB free. Things did not go well. He couldn't understand why that failed when editing 1MB-2MB files worked just fine. He just didn't see the difference. A file was a file. -ethan

19 years, 5 months

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TV Show Alert: Antikythera Mechanism

by gmanuel＠gmconsulting.net

Hi All, Just a heads up that tonight (Tuesday 3/20/07) the show, Ancient Discoveries, on the History Channel at 9:00PM Eastern and repeated around 12:00am - 1:00am Wednesday Morning, will be on. It is titled "Ancient Computer?" and deals with the Antikythera Mechanism. Should be an interesting show. Greg Manuel gmanuel at gmconsulting.net

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

> Message: 15 > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:36:06 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <D8CAA477-9A46-4B00-8447-CAC38C4AC832 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > On Mar 13, 2007, at 2:45 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> apophis$ which finger >>> /bin/finger >>> apophis$ which talk >>> /bin/talk >>> ...looks to me like they're still there. >> >> Yes, actually try to use them across networks. There are these >> funny little things on the outside of most organizations called >> "firewalls", maybe you've heard of them. > > There is absolutely no need to be a smartass. I make a living > running fairly large networks...and not for clueless organizations > who depend on the crutch of a firewall to implement a secure > network. I use "talk" fairly frequently, it works just fine. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL I have seen some ontopic books (UNIX, 10 years old now) that strongly recommend disabling finger to prevent unauthorized types from finding likely targets among the accounts. Since then, finger services (such as cfingerd) have become less of an issue because you can limit some information, but it's likely that the old maxim still holds, as well as the new one: if you don't positively need it than don't turn it on. Too bad, though: 'finger' was nice when you wanted to get an e-mail address that you weren't certain of. (after the demise of finger in general circulation I used to connect to port 25 and try a couple of vrfys- can't do that anymore in most places, but it's a "legitimate" need for port 25, right?)

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing?

by spectre＠floodgap.com

Against my better judgment, I'll reply to this, since it is a point not heretofore addressed. Dave McGuire wrote, > If someone is contemplating setting up a server to disseminate > information publicly but is going to be cheap about it, just don't > bother. Give the data to someone who knows how to make it available > in a reasonable way. Unless, of course, the goal *is* really for > that person to see himself doing it. This argument doesn't scale, particularly in our very narrow field of interest. How would you get the (to use an example on my mind) simtel.nets or the download.coms of the world to be interested in Don Maslin's boot disk archive? How would you *find* someone with that kind of interest *and* the needed (per your claim) disk space and network investment? The kneejerk answer to b) is, natch, this list. And look at how *few* on this list would actually measure up to your criteria for the network alone, let alone interest level. So, by your argument, someone like that would therefore have no recourse but to let their collection rot because they shouldn't make it available at all. It also makes the corollary that those who spend money on some sort of hosting are therefore not spending enough, something proponents of this view have not adequately addressed and have no right to assert. This is the kind of thing that makes mega-archives, and mega-archives collapse under their own weight. What this really boils down to is elitism, that people aren't allowed to contribute in *any* way to the community if their method of contribution isn't (per the arbitrary criteria of you, Jim and others of like mind) 100%. Baloney. This isn't a "bad neighbour" situation like open proxies, badly configured mailhosts or Trojanned boxes where such machines cause damage and *should* be excluded: this is someone offering their files for the uptake of the community. If people used your yardstick to determine if they could make such offerings, then there would be tremendously fewer avenues of of such contribution. I'll return to my regularly scheduled lurk. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones. -----------------------------------

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing?

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

This is the old 'Apple Box' issue: If you have surplus apples and put a box with 'Please take one' by your gate is that different to a box with 'Help yourself on it' Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse Sent: 19 March 2007 04:19 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? >> Perhaps some DOLT leeching the entire site causes them to be shut >> down by their provider due to bandwidth. Perhaps some selfabsorbed >> arrogant miscreant sucking down the entire site, costs this guy a >> sudden $200 bill that he wasn't expecting due to bandwidth. How RUDE >> not to respect the site owners wishes. > 1. If the person didn't want to share the files, then why are they up > on the 'net in the first place? Perhaps the person was interested in helping people who actually ahve a need for them, instead of feeding leeches. > 2. QoS has been around for over a decade, both software and hardware. > Put bandwidth controls on your stuff if you fear it will cost you > money. My FTP server limits to 16KB/s because I pay for my bandwidth. Bully for you. So now it's the victim's fault? I don't have any easy way to place bandwidth limits on my FTP server. If I get hit with a leech who ends up costing me bandwidth overage charges, do you think I'm going to go spend money to keep it from happening again? No; I'm far more likely to either shut it down entirely or just report the abuser to the provider used (and quite likely ban access from that provider in the interim, with the ban made permanent if they don't consider it abuse). I have trouble thinking any of us who run anon FTP sites are likely to react otherwise. I've had the same discussion, basically, with qmail fans. They too seem to think that it's sane to take the stance "I should be able to grab all I want, and if you don't want me to you should make sure I can't". The concept that computers are used by humans and that politeness is important to humans seems completely lost on them. (And yes, I've had to put automated defenses in place against qmail's commonest form of abuse - connection-bombing receiving mailservers.) > 3. Not everyone has to host their files on a plan that will cost them > crazy money if abused. Great. Therefore it's OK to abuse those who don't? Look. It's really quite simple: please respect the archive provider's wishes. If you don't know what they are, either ask or be conservative. Anything else risks destroying the resource you are abusing. >> Sorry, touched a nerve. > Sorry, but you still haven't proven your point. There is nothing to prove. You are asked to not abuse something provided free. You are arguing "you should make it impossible to abuse". True or false, that does not, repeat DOES NOT, excuse your abusing it, or attempting to. > Offering files online for the good of the community, then putting > arbitrary limits on access, doesn't make sense. You either want to > help people, or you don't. If you can't see the difference between helping people and feeding leeches...*boggle* /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

19 years, 5 months

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Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archivesdisappearing?)

by wayne.smith＠charter.net

> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 01:05:53 -0500 > From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp > archivesdisappearing?) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <001401c76ab5$d3760360$6900a8c0 at HPLAPTOP> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Hex wrote.... > > If you can't handle internet chat formats then you really do not > > belong on the internet...as classic old timers like you guys sadly > > fade away in time more of people like me with our new slang > > and ways > > of formatting messages will come in .....snip..... > > No more of Hex's "new slang" will be coming in. > > Jay > And for that, we thank you.

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing?

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Dave McGuire wrote: As far as "people demand decreasing prices" and "people demand more functionality" etc...I hear that all over the place, but I never seem to see any people lined up outside Seagate's doors demanding that they make bigger drives, I never see people lined up outside Intel's HQ demanding higher clock rates etc etc. What I DO see is manufacturers constantly DELIVERING increased functionality, and sometimes decreasing prices, and customers eating it up because they have to have the "latest thing" in order to feel good about themselves. You see...I am (in this context) the customer, the money in my wallet is MINE, and *I* decide what I want to spend it on and when...and *I* decide when the products I have are no longer capable of doing their jobs. It is wrong for a manufacturer to tell me that "thing XYZ" is "no longer suitable for use" SIMPLY AND ONLY BECAUSE they've started selling something new and would like me to buy one. Where I come from, that's called a lie. Perhaps I'm expecting too much from the business world, especially in the USA nowadays, but that's crossing a line that should never have been crossed. -Dave Billy Responds: Dave, you obviously have had some bad experiences with obsolescence. I don't know what they were, but I have NEVER seen an OEM change products "SIMPLY AND ONLY BECAUSE" they've got something new. In fact it works the other way around - remember how Adam Osbourne killed off his company by prematurely announcing a new product? How many disk drives companies still make ST506 drives? Or SCSI? If people won't buy your product, you have to change or die. QED. One of the points I was trying to make is that it costs big bucks to develop new products. Every manufacturer I know would love to lay off the development staff and just keep making the old products. Damn engineers always expect to be paid! Get rid of them and no R&D expenses, old product well down the price curve = lots of profit, no pressure. But the world doesn't work that way. You may not see the people lined up outside Seagate's door demanding they make bigger drives. But I do - they visit us after they leave Seagate. And they give us their roadmap when they want the next drive, what features it requires down to the weight in grams, and how much they will pay and when. All vendors have to provide forward pricing, product commits, detailed schedules, design reviews, detailed testing data on the customer's systems and so on. Play the game as the customer demands or get out. Ignore the customer and die. It is extremely expensive to come out with new capacity points for drives and RAM so frequently. It has killer expenses and often involves massive infrastructure investment. Have you looked at the costs of going to 300 mm wafers to build the next generation of microprocessors? We are talking multi-billion dollar start up costs. It's clear that you feel strongly that the vendors are all out to screw you. I can't change that and won't try. But I can tell you that being in the industry is tough and making products obsolete to ship new ones is painful as hell. It is not vendors trying to screw their customers. It is people trying to stay alive in a cut throat industry. Think about how many casualties there have been in the field. Literally thousands of companies have come and gone. This list talks daily about respected companies with great technical expertise who didn't make it. And most of those died because they couldn't keep up the pace of change, not because they obsoleted their good products. Not everyone who makes electronic equipment is a villain. Billy

19 years, 5 months

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Austin, Texas Computerworks Goodwill

by frustum＠pacbell.net

I've had it with the Computerworks in Austin. Please let me rant; nobody else will appreciate it. http://www.austingoodwill.org/crs/store%20locater%20pages/ComputerWorks.html When I moved to Austin a couple years ago, I had high hopes. In the San Francisco Bay area, you could spend a saturday hitting half a dozen Goodwill's, looking for gems. Sometimes they appeared, often not. In Austin (and San Antonio, and probably some other cities) Goodwill sends all of their computer donations to a specialized goodwill, marketed as "ComputerWorks"; the theory is that most goodwill's don't have skilled employees to know what is interesting or not and how to price it; I agree that is the case. The Austin Computerworks even has a vintage computer museum, so that led me to believe the appreciated vintage computers. https://www.austincomputerworks.org/museum/index.html Bzzt. Not so. Clue #1: the "museum" hasn't been open in the eight or so times I've stopped by. Their hours are sunday 1-5, monday 9-11, wed 1-3. 8 hours a week. One time I snuck in when the door was open and had a look -- it is a hands-off museum. Each of the 20 or so machines has a 5x7 card fully explaining what is interesting about the machine and how it fits in to the tapestry of computing ... not. Name, date, and manufacturer is about all. Clue #2: they got rid of 80% of their books, leaving only "popular" titles. Clue #3: they never have any vintage computers for sale when I'm there. A year ago I had dropped off an HP 85, an HP86, and 30 lbs of software and manuals, even replacement paper for the 85's printer. I was nervous when they told me to go around to the side to drop it off at the general donation dock, but I did it. Today before donating, I asked a few questions. Me: I have an apple II+, and apple IIe, and a kaypro 10 to donate. Are you interested in them? Clerk: Yes, sir, we are! Drive around the side to the loading dock and drop them off there. Me: I've been here a dozen times (I'm stretching the truth with him to make a point) and I've never seen any old computers for sale -- I mean, 70's micros. Him: Oh, we get them, but most people aren't interested. Me: So what do you do when you get them? Him: We send them to a room where were separate out the metal from the plastic and ... Me: (interrupting) Wait a second... you mean you don't even try to sell them to that segment of the market that is interested in them, for nostalgia's sake or whatever? You just trash them? Him: No sir, as I just explained, we don't throw them away. We separate out the metal from the plastic ... (I didn't hear the rest as I walked away) So the nice hp 85 and 86 that I donated last year with docs and apps, memory expansion carts, serial interface carts, and which was in much better condition than the one in their museum, never saw the light of day. Bastards. What makes this even more insidious is that when I go to the local run of the mill goodwills and inquire about what they do with old computer donations, they say they ship them to computer works to deal with them. So essentially it is a vintage computer magnet attached to a wood chipper. I understand that goodwill gets far more stuff than can ever sell, but to not even try is sickening. There was no hint of regret about it from the clerk -- in fact, he was rather proud that they were recycling bits of them vs tossing them whole. After leaving the computerworks, I drove a mile or two up the road the to recently mentioned MC Howard electronics. They have room for lots of funky stuff, and they were happy to accept them. Phew, I feel better. Now I need to write a rant to the goodwill organization to enlighten them on the subject. PS: Doc Shipley, don't bother driving to MC Howard to get the kaypro 10, if you were. I have a nicer one that I'm still sitting on for you to collect some day.

19 years, 5 months

26
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Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?)

by dave06a＠dunfield.com

I've been thinking recently about the whole issue of archival and preservation of classic software, especially system disks, as it is the "essential first step" to getting a classic system up and performing useful work. Several recent things have happened to prompt me to put my thoughts into words: - Mention of Don Maslin, and archival topics in recent postings here. - During a recent google search, I stumbled across a posting reminding me of details of the situation with Dons archive and family. - Correspondance with someone geographically quite distant from me that needed assistance in generating system disks for a classic system. Turning to the list I thought I could find someone closer to help him, yet the single response I received was from someone just as far away as I. I never got to know Don personally, however I did correspond with him on several occations, and it was apparent to me that he was knowlegable and committed to his work in preserving classic software. Add to that many testimonials and references to him that I've encountered in my travels, and It's clear that his contribution was not small. But... as we all know now, there was a fatal flaw in Dons operation. He put "all the eggs in one basket" by keeping his archive in a single physical form, and did not make arrangements for the preservation and continuance of that archive/service. We can learn from this. No matter how many times we say "too bad", and how much we hope that the archive will "reappear", this has not happened, and does not appear likely to happen. To my mind, there is really only one thing to do, which is to build a new archive. To that end, I would like to present as a topic for discussion the idea of a concerted effort by the members of this list to build a long-term archive of classic system software. Here are some of my own thoughts on such a project: = How to obtain material Although Dons archive has been lost, I would guess that between us we have much of the content of that archive (heck, many of us got copies of boot disks from Don), and also a whole lot of applicable material that was not in the archive. Between us we represent a great variety of working classic systems. I also do not expect to build a "complete" archive overnight (or ever), but with an ongoing effort, it will grow and grow... = How to store the archive I am a strong believer in preservation of the physical media as historic artifacts, however I believe it is also vital to preserve the data separately in modern formats, for several reasons: - It allows easy replication and mirroring in multiple locations. This will help insure that the material is not lost in the future through any single failure point (fire, flood, death, loss-of-interest - all of these things and more can wipe out a single physical archive). - It removes dependance on specific (and usually obsolete) physical media. No need to put wear and tear on the original artifacts, and allows for contingencies in the event that the original devices become inoperative. - Allows for easy sharing and movement of the data. - Allows everything to be tracked in a central repository (appropriately mirrored of course). - Allows anyone who wants to set up the required equipment to have complete access to the repository content. = How to go about building it A tricky question - Who's going to do all this work? The good news is that it can be shared, but it will require a bit of a committment. Not everyone is going to want to put up the investment to acquire the means to process their disk collection. What I am thinking of is several key volenteers positioned so as to cover the major geographic areas who would be willing to set up the necessary software and equipment to handle as many different media types as possible, and provide a service to nearby collectors to turn media into images, and to turn images into media. Working with others in the project, the images could be transmitted and shared so that any particuylar system disk can be accessed from anywhere. = How to make the archive available Another tricky question, which has two major components, legality and accessability. On the legal side, copyright issues are a concern. Among other things, we could consider doing what the SEBHC group has done with it's Heathkit archive, and NOT make the archive public. With SEBHC you have to apply for a (free) membership to access the archive. As for accessing the archive - how does someone get a boot disk for classic system X - if he's lucky and it can be created on a PC (or another Classic system that he has running), then he could obtain the image and necessary software directly from the archive. If he is not equipped to recreate the media, the the "key volenteers" mentioned above come into play - think of them as a worldwide network of Don Maslins, able to provide disks to others, but doing so in coordination with other archivists and using a central repository. If any one person drops out for whatever reason, someone else can fill in, and the system just keeps going. Lots more thoughts, but this is long enough for now... As most of you know, I've been taking some small steps along these lines with my own system disk repository, however it's simply not enough - I can only preserve the systems I come in contact with, and I would feel better if I knew others were keeping up to date mirrors of the material... (fortunately in addition to my two local copies, Jay has the actual complete site on classiccmp and backed up via his computer center). So whatdya say, is there any interest? (lotsa room for discussion here) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html

19 years, 5 months

31
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Don Maslin/Archiving system software

by dm561＠torfree.net

To bring this back to the original subject... Although I have a problem with some of our Hex friend's suggestions, I do like the idea of on-demand availability (in addition to on-line archives). I've seen it mentioned, but are there actually any plans to host a master catalogue of old software somewhere where people could just list what they have available, with a search mechanism that could essentially look like bitsavers et al and let you select a brand/model/title but instead of (or in addition to) a direct FTP link return a list of web sites and/or email addresses where it could be found or requested? For example (and I doubt that I'm alone in this): I have a bunch of Cromemco software but not the time or even the inclination to copy and archive it in all its various formats, but if anyone ever wanted a copy of something in a specific format (and knew that I have it) I'd be glad to help out, and I could probably find the time to make a list if there were a place for it and an agreed-upon standard for its format and content. Same thing with documentation; I'm not about to scan all the manuals, tech bulletins, etc., but I could make a list and would be happy to scan a few crucial pages if someone needed some specific info. (Note to Al: I haven't forgotten; still working on your pile). I realize that this doesn't address the issue of actually archiving this stuff and I appreciate the efforts of Al and others to make sure that it doesn't disappear, but I suspect there is a lot of software and information out there that can't be found anywhere on the 'Web just because its owner doesn't have the time or doesn't think it's useful; in fact there's probably a fair bit of stuff that people wouldn't even know existed until they saw it listed somewhere. Granted, there'd be dead links etc. after a while (although I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to automatically verify them every now and then), but nevertheless I think it would bring a few useful items out of the woodwork... mike

19 years, 5 months

1
0
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1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density

by dave06a＠dunfield.com

Today I stumbled across something that may explain why some people I've corresponded with have had such a hard time getting single-density to work with disk imageing. For my own setup, I have a couple of trusty Aopen AP5T mainboards which do single-density nicely, installed in cases with an internal 3.5" HD (1.44M) drive as A:, and an external cable allowing me to connect any of the following as drive B: - 5.25" DD 40 track (Teac 55-G) - 5.25" DD 80 track (Teac 55-F) - 5.25" HD 80 track (Teac 55-G) - 8" DS (Qumetrack 242) I'm also quite a stickler for using the proper drive when I read/write images - so if it's 5.25" 40 track, the 55-G gets connected etc. This has worked very well for me. Today I was setting up another system to do 5.25" disks only, and I wanted it to be self contained within one case. To minimize the drives, I decided to modify a Panasonic JU-475 with a switch on the front bezel to force it to 300 rpm to serve as both the DD/80 and an HD/80 drive. To verify that the drive was good, I hooked it up and tried to read/write some disks - to my surprise I could not do single density (at 300kbos). Tried a couple other HD drives with the same result. On a hunch, I modded it to 300rpm, and sure enough, I can read/write single-desnity fine at 300rpm / 250kbps. (Yeah, I know the SD rate is really only 1/2 - by 250/300kbps, I am referring to the MFM settings for the AT controller data rate select register). To rule out some odd ImageDisk quirk, I tried several versions of TeleDisk - with the drive at 360rpm and configured as a 1.2M HD drive, none of them could read a single-density disk either. So at least for my AP5Ts, it appears that the internal controller can do single or double density at 250kbps, but only double- density at the "at compatible" 360rpm rate of 300kbps. My guess is that the data separator does not work at that rate (works fine at 500kbps however). I'm curious to know if this is a charactistic specific to the machines I am using, or if it is common among PCs that do single- density to not work at 300kbps. Has anyone here read and/or created single density 5.25" disk on a 1.2M HD drive spinning at 360rpm? Regards, Dave PS: I've added a note to the ImageDisk help file and manual about this (that you may need a DD drive to do single-density), and I've also put up a brief page describing the modifications I made to add the speed switch to the Panasonic drive on my images page. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html

19 years, 5 months

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Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftparchives disappearing?)

by dkelvey＠hotmail.com

>From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > >OK, a more considered reply now I've got a few minutes... > >>= How to go about building it >>A tricky question - Who's going to do all this work? The good >>news is that it can be shared, but it will require a bit of a >>committment. Not everyone is going to want to put up the >>investment to acquire the means to process their disk collection. >>What I am thinking of is several key volenteers positioned so as >>to cover the major geographic areas who would be willing to set >>up the necessary software and equipment to handle as many >>different media types as possible, and provide a service to >>nearby collectors to turn media into images, and to turn images >>into media. Working with others in the project, the images >>could be transmitted and shared so that any particuylar system >>disk can be accessed from anywhere. > >That much makes sense to me. I've been steadily collecting various relevant >odds and ends for the past couple of years with a view to doing just that - >various drives, controllers, tape units etc. > >In order to spread this around as much as possible, we could probably do >with some "style guide" documents produced by some of the list gurus as to >what hardware works with what etc. (e.g. summarising things like the >responses to my recent question about hooking an 8" floppy drive up to a >PC). That will hopefully encourage more people to participate. > >(There's certainly been a lot of knowledge shared on this list in the past >about recovering old tapes too - it'd be nice to see that written up >somewhere "central") > >Hmmm, it's not really a FAQ, but there's perhaps scope for something like a >"classiccmp.org knowledge base" containing info like this? > >>= How to make the archive available >>Another tricky question, which has two major components, legality >>and accessability. > >I still think the key here is distribution. Allow people who have >specialist knowledge in a particular area to run their own little corner of >the web as they see fit - but they also "publish" what they've made >available through some defined mechanism. In addition, they present some >unified way of searching across *all* participating sites for content. > >To extend that concept a little further (thinking on my feet here), how's >about we say that each "published" bit of data can be marked with different >levels: > > "Offline" (say pending copyright issue resolution!) > Free for download (i.e. available to all users) > Available for mirror (to specific peers) > Available for mirror (to anyone wishing to make a mirror of the item) > >Obvious benefits: > > 1) The "specialists" in any given area retain control over what they >have available, the format that it's in, and the "look and feel" of >whatever frills surround the actual data. > > 2) There's no unwieldy central repository, with corresponding high cost >of maintenance. > > 3) Mirroring is more controllable. > > 4) Searching (from a user POV) can be flexible and tailored to certain >pre-defined "classes" of content. > > 5) Copyright is at least a little less of an issue; if someone publishes >something that violates copyright, it's far more likely to come down on >their own head than jeaporising the distributed archive as a whole. > > 6) Dictating a "common archival format" that everyone agrees on probably >isn't possible, for various reasons. Look at what happened with Sellam's >efforts. However, dictating a common set of different content types (disk >image, documentation scan etc.), and the metadata fields that they can be >searched for with, is a heck of a lot easier! > > 7) Admin is a lot easier, as every participating site owner is an admin >of the stuff that *they* make available, rather than having one person (or >a team) trying to look after everything - Al can probably comment on what a >headache this is! > >Downsides: > > 1) Probably needs a web interface at least for the searching (but that's >not to stop someone making the actual data available over FTP or whatever, >and the search interface code could be produced in a variety of languages - >PHP, ASP etc. - to provide flexibility) > > 2) The actual database of "what's where" probably still needs to be >central, because distributing that across multiple sites (ala DNS) is >likely impractical, plus the majority of websites probably do have some >server-side scripting ability, but not necessarily any kind of coherent >database support) Hi I thought I'd add a little here. One thing that is missing. We'd need some way to keep it running beyond when we are gone. There should be a trust setup. It should have at least two or three people maintaining is and willing to deal with the tax issues. I tend to agree that it shouldn't force format. Dave's open format is vary well thought out and his tool is good but there is legacy data that would need to be converted. As an example, the disk image data I have for the Polymorphic 8813 is in the format used by the Polymorphic software to move disk images through modems to other Polymorphic machines. It does currently lack a method to restore it to a machine that has no boot floppy ( over time I hope to fix that ). Other images are not even as floppy images. As an example, all the data that I have for my Nicolet floppy disk system is images on paper tape data ( in files on my PC ). And of course, I also have cassette data images. Some people like to store cassette images as audio files. I like to store the actual data. I have done this for my Poly88 stuff and have a bootstrap method to get things started without a first tape. I also have images in a format that I'm just too lazy to convert. As an example, the images I made for my H89. These also have some legacy issues, as my tool was used to create the images for the hard sectored images on SEBHC. I've included a method to bootstrap without having a first disk. Of course, there should always be some form of readme with each group of files explaining how to use the files. In the past, this has been one of the hardest things to figure out on random archives. Many times, I've seen images with no information on what to do with them. This has happened because the directory was copied from someplace without the support. Each directory should have at least a simple readme describing how the images were made and what tool should be used to recover them. Just a readme at the top directory is not enough. The top directory may get separated. A readme is minimum. These readme's may need updating as time goes by. Things like the fact that some tool needs to run under a particular OS and not some future OS that may be more common, needs to be passed on. It is hard to tell what bit of information that is assumed today may be key for extracting useful data in the future. It must be a living archive. Just my thoughts Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN Presents today. http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001

19 years, 5 months

4
6
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Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items?

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Chuck Guzis wrote: The background drives are probably 607's or 609's--the photo's too fuzzy for positive ID--but my money'd be on 607's which were far more common (I loved those drives and despised the 657 "cost reduced" replacements). Unfortunately, there are no mainframe cabinets anywhere in the photo-- what you see in the foreground are 3000-series controllers, but that doesn't mean a thing, as both the 3000 and 6000 series used 3000 peripherals for tape., card and printing. The 6000 used a 6681/2 channell converter, which then would interface to, say, a 3423 tape controller. The cabinet sitting next to the 415 card punch in the middle foreground is probably a 3447 punch controller. Maybe Billy Petit can recognize some of the cabinets--it's far too fuzzy to make out any numbers. Cheers, Chuck Billy responded: It is hard to tell much. The tape drives are definitely 606 or 607's. I'd lean toward 606 because the lights for density seem to be the 200/556 configuration, not the 200/556/800 set. The cabinets in front are unusual. The one on the right has a window in the top (see the shiny plate) and that was only done for printers. The one on the left also has two rows of lights, instead of one and that was only done on early printers (non-train) and one of the early disk file controllers. So my guess is that these two cabinets are dual printers. The photo is blurry but it looks like two of the tape units are set to Unit 4, which means a dual tape controller. Main frame is impossible to tell from these limited bits and pieces. Like Chuck says, 3100 to 6600. The number of tapes suggests a bigger system. Billy

19 years, 5 months

3
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Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?)

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Dave Dunfield wrote: Hi Chuck, I think this is a separate issue, what to do to protect the physical artifacts in our various collections - In this sense, diskettes are no different than computers, S-100 cards or any other physical thing that you consider valuable/important enough to want to insure it's survival bayond your own ability to care for it. Each of us must put in place whatever arrangements we feel are appropriate. [snip] Physical artifacts are a topic for another discussion. I would suggest that at the very least we place the following information somewhere where it will be available to anyone with the unfortunate task of having to clean our our basements: - And indication that the material is important and should not be contributed to landfill. (If you have valuable items in your collection, I assume you would identify those for your estate). - Names and contact information of knowlegable people who can help in it's disposition. If nothing else, information about how to contact this list. Regards, Dave Sorry Dave, but I disagree with you; at least in my personal case. I'm retiring in 3 months and my number one object is to clean out the garage. When I die, my family has no interest and will ship it all to a land fill unless there is something specific they know is promised to someone. So my top priority is not to copy the files and get them to an archive. Top priority is to physically ship them to someone who gives a damn. I've been giving Al bits and pieces, but by the end of this year, I'm talking truck loads - more than he can absorb. Some of it will go to eBay just because of the value of it - with no income, money is more precious. I've promised Al I would sell nothing until he can scan it. But rarer items go to the auction block. I've no choice; the money will be needed. Software is tougher. If it was common, I've already thrown most of it away. But there are still piles and boxes of floppies and CDs. If Al wants them, they are his. I'll put a notice on this list and give the rest away if they are wanted. If not, they go to the dump. I'm not going to bother to sort and list hundreds of floppies. So I'm doing part of what you mentioned. But with thousands of items, it's not possible to make a detailed list. The more valuable items are identified. But the rest goes as land fill unless I do something ahead of time. Hence being my top priority. You youngsters don't have to face this for a while. But I've seen too many book collections lost or destroyed. Lingering or putting off these decisions usually result in total loss of the collection. A bitch isn't it? Save items 40-50 years; then have to get rid of to see that they maintain some overall usefulness. Billy

19 years, 5 months

3
2
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Source for 1Mx4 DIPP 20pin DRAM

by rmay635703a＠yahoo.com

I am in desparate need as are others of that type of RAM sadly no one seems to solder the surface mount to carriers anymore and EVERYONE wants you to buy $500 minimum. Is there anyone out there who supplies this stuff anymore? --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends.

19 years, 5 months

2
1
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ASR33 selector magnet driver card

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Mr Ian Primus wrote: What is a suitable replacement for CR2? It's hard to read seeming as though it is missing a chunk. CR1 looks to be the same - but I read it as a 1N4smudge3, which is rather hard to cross reference. I found the schematic in the manual, but not a parts list. I'll keep looking, but I figured I would ask the experts here. Unless this was some kind of coincidence, I think I need to double check my 20ma power supply. Thanks! -Ian Billy: I think it is an 1N4003. I remember losing this diode sometimes when debugging new interfaces. I always changed it with a 1N4004. The resistor often burned the PCB beneath it; looks like crap. So I would replace it with a higher wattage wire wound resistor and suspend it away >from the PCB by .5 cm or so. Billy

19 years, 5 months

1
0
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Nat Wadsworth contact ? Scelbal status ?

by jos.mar＠bluewin.ch

Anybody knows of the whereabouts of Nat Wadsworth ? On a related issue, anybody knows on the copyright status of Scelbal ? Jos

19 years, 5 months

1
0
0 0

1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: 1.2M HD / 300kbps / single-density > From: "Dave Dunfield" <dave06a at dunfield.com> > Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:36:40 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Today I stumbled across something that may explain why some >people I've corresponded with have had such a hard time >getting single-density to work with disk imageing. > >For my own setup, I have a couple of trusty Aopen AP5T >mainboards which do single-density nicely, installed in >cases with an internal 3.5" HD (1.44M) drive as A:, and >an external cable allowing me to connect any of the >following as drive B: > - 5.25" DD 40 track (Teac 55-G) Dave, Don't you want to be using a 55B whish is a real 40 track drive? > - 5.25" DD 80 track (Teac 55-F) > - 5.25" HD 80 track (Teac 55-G) > - 8" DS (Qumetrack 242) > >I'm also quite a stickler for using the proper drive when >I read/write images - so if it's 5.25" 40 track, the 55-G >gets connected etc. This has worked very well for me. > >Today I was setting up another system to do 5.25" disks >only, and I wanted it to be self contained within one case. >To minimize the drives, I decided to modify a Panasonic >JU-475 with a switch on the front bezel to force it to 300 >rpm to serve as both the DD/80 and an HD/80 drive. > >To verify that the drive was good, I hooked it up and tried >to read/write some disks - to my surprise I could not do >single density (at 300kbos). Tried a couple other HD drives >with the same result. On a hunch, I modded it to 300rpm, and >sure enough, I can read/write single-desnity fine at >300rpm / 250kbps. > >(Yeah, I know the SD rate is really only 1/2 - by 250/300kbps, >I am referring to the MFM settings for the AT controller data >rate select register). > >To rule out some odd ImageDisk quirk, I tried several versions >of TeleDisk - with the drive at 360rpm and configured as a 1.2M >HD drive, none of them could read a single-density disk either. > >So at least for my AP5Ts, it appears that the internal controller >can do single or double density at 250kbps, but only double- >density at the "at compatible" 360rpm rate of 300kbps. My guess >is that the data separator does not work at that rate (works >fine at 500kbps however). > >I'm curious to know if this is a charactistic specific to the >machines I am using, or if it is common among PCs that do single- >density to not work at 300kbps. Has anyone here read and/or >created single density 5.25" disk on a 1.2M HD drive spinning >at 360rpm? There is at least one reason not to do this. The bit shift is greater due to write speed. Also some integrated version of the 765 (superchips) select precomp based on clock speed and that may be less than optimum. Finally the drive used may shift write current based on media speed. this also ignores the 96tpi and 48 tpi issues that are worse when writeing an already formatted disk. Any or all of those can undermine relaibility. Allison

19 years, 5 months

3
2
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Don Maslin/Archiving system software

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

Sorry if this comes through twice. My mailer is acting up. I know better than to continue an OT thread, but there are a few points worth considering here. > Cool down, there. I was merely observing that connectivity (being > the highway) has trailed Moore's Laws (at least in the US) for quite > some time. True in the way Moore's Law is usually thought of. But when he stated his "law" Moore wasn't talking about speed; he was talking about the number of transistors. He foresaw the rate at which transistor sizes could be shrunk. Now, for a long time, making the transistors smaller made them faster and the overall CPU was also faster. That's less the case than it used to be, in part because the on-chip interconnects don't benefit as much. On top of that, we just kept making the discrepency between CPU and memory speeds greater and greater, putting more and more demand on the cache. So rather than using the additional transistors to create an implementation that's even faster (e.g. increased pipelining), we're now using them for additional cache and for multiple cores. And that's we where start to hit Ahmdal's Law. As the parallel guys have known for years, not all tasks parallelize nicely. There's probably not much to gain from implementing a word processor with multiple concurrent threads. So what does all this mean? Even though the physicists are clever enough to keep the "end of Moore's Law" always 10 years in the future (which I've been hearing for at least 20 yeasrs), Moore's law doesn't necessarily buy us the performance increase we're used to. And that's before we even look at software bloat. > Given that the bulk of the use for home PCs is net- > based; there will come a time that there is simply not enough > bandwidth *commonly* available to feed a petaflop machine. > > Regardless of the needs of home hobbyists, who don't drive production > of consumer PCs, most people I know of still use the box primarily > for email and web browsing. I don't consider amateur astronomy to > be in the "killer app" class. There is once class of user that's large enough and willing enough to fork out dollars that there's still a point in pushing performance as much as we can. That's the gamers, the guys that keep moving toward a day when their game is so immersive and so realistic that they can't always tell whether they're in the game or the real world. And it turns out that some of the things we need to do in those games do parallelize nicely. So I expect we will continue to see some of the continued growing overkill of system performance for uses like e-mail and browsing. But then the people who took the web and twisted it from being a solid information distribution world to an entertainment medium will find ways to use those cycles. Now I shall slink off and punish myself with many lashes of a wet noodle for contributing OT material. My only excuse is that I mentioned hearing about the end of Moore's law for 20 years :-) BLS

19 years, 5 months

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Don Maslin/Archiving system software

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

I know better than to continue an OT thread, but there are a few points worth considering here. > Cool down, there. I was merely observing that connectivity (being > the highway) has trailed Moore's Laws (at least in the US) for quite > some time. True in the way Moore's Law is usually thought of. But when he stated his "law" Moore wasn't talking about speed; he was talking about the number of transistors. He foresaw the rate at which transistor sizes could be shrunk. Now, for a long time, making the transistors smaller made them faster and the overall CPU was also faster. That's less the case than it used to be, in part because the on-chip interconnects don't benefit as much. On top of that, we just kept making the discrepency between CPU and memory speeds greater and greater, putting more and more demand on the cache. So rather than using the additional transistors to create an implementation that's even faster (e.g. increased pipelining), we're now using them for additional cache and for multiple cores. And that's we where start to hit Ahmdal's Law. As the parallel guys have known for years, not all tasks parallelize nicely. There's probably not much to gain from implementing a word processor with multiple concurrent threads. So what does all this mean? Even though the physicists are clever enough to keep the "end of Moore's Law" always 10 years in the future (which I've been hearing for at least 20 yeasrs), Moore's law doesn't necessarily buy us the performance increase we're used to. And that's before we even look at software bloat. > Given that the bulk of the use for home PCs is net- > based; there will come a time that there is simply not enough > bandwidth *commonly* available to feed a petaflop machine. > > Regardless of the needs of home hobbyists, who don't drive production > of consumer PCs, most people I know of still use the box primarily > for email and web browsing. I don't consider amateur astronomy to > be in the "killer app" class. There is once class of user that's large enough and willing enough to fork out dollars that there's still a point in pushing performance as much as we can. That's the gamers, the guys that keep moving toward a day when their game is so immersive and so realistic that they can't always tell whether they're in the game or the real world. And it turns out that some of the things we need to do in those games do parallelize nicely. So I expect we will continue to see some of the continued growing overkill of system performance for uses like e-mail and browsing. But then the people who took the web and twisted it from being a solid information distribution world to an entertainment medium will find ways to use those cycles. Now I shall slink off and punish myself with many lashes of a wet noodle for contributing OT material. My only excuse is that I mentioned hearing about the end of Moore's law for 20 years :-) BLS

19 years, 5 months

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1m X 1 memoory

by pspan＠amerytel.net

I just went ooutt and checked Jameco, they had 18 pin rams @ 100ns for 2.59 ea.

19 years, 5 months

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Source for 1Mx1 DIP DRAM

by shirsch＠adelphia.net

I'm looking for (32) 1Mx1 120ns DRAM chips to populate an Amiga memory board. Is there a more rational source than eBay? Steve --

19 years, 5 months

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Fwd: large vanload of NorthStar equipment offered

by legalize＠xmission.com

See attached; respond to the poster directly and not to me, thanks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing?

by marvin＠rain.org

> From: "Hex Star" <hexstar at gmail.com> > > > On 3/18/07, der Mouse <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote: > > > > If you can't see the difference between helping people and feeding > > leeches...*boggle* > > I agree with Jim, why is someone uploading big sized files for people to > download when at the same time they don't expect to spend lots of monthly > bandwidth? That just doesn't make sense...any file archive and just file > hosting in general is going to involve investing alot of monthly bandwidth This "I can do as I want" discussion boils down to respect for others. It is utterly arrogant (and stupid) to disregard the wishes of someone providing something for free. Most of us give away our time to help others, but expecting us to allow others to also just take our money is ... well ... der Mouse put it best with *boggle*!!!

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing?

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

-----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Rice Sent: 19 March 2007 04:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? On 3/18/07, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > If you want a mirror it would be nice just to ask the owner for a DVD > set of the data which takes little time and doesn't hog bandwidth from > others who just want a few files. > > I ran a private FTP during the later 90's when cable 1st came around > in my area. I never cared if people connected and downloaded what was > on the site as long as they didn't use software that logged in > multiple times to suck down all the bandwidth from the other users, > and didn't hammer the site every second to get on when the slots were > full. Everybody is different and you need to respect their rules. > > My employer lets me host my site of their bandwidth. I do throttle downloads at 1.8kbps and limit connections to two from any IP address. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers

19 years, 5 months

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Don Maslin/Archiving system software

by jvdg＠sparcpark.net

Hex Star wrote: > On 3/18/07, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > >> That implies a systemic desire to avoid valid copyright. That doesn't >> seem like a good idea. If you don't respect others' copyright, you >> shouldn't expect anyone to respect yours. > > No problem there, I don't have any copyrighted items I've made :P > > And the idea isn't to do that just to be ignorant and say "Ha ha!" to the US > government agencies/lawyers, the idea would be to do that so that people > could upload full versions of vintage software that you once had to pay for > without having to worry about some employee coming out of the dead and suing > us...it really shouldn't be an issue with software of this age but webspace > in Russia would just make this whole copyright deal a non-issue thus meaning > we wouldn't have to censure our archives content nor deal with any > roundabout ways of distributing the archive such as requiring a free > registration Okay, you really need to start shutting up now and instead start listening and learning for a bit. I've been seeing you around a few places, and I've noticed that this isn't the first community where you'd be getting into a spot of trouble with your incessant hammering on these issues. Knock it with the illegal crap. That's what gets communities (like this one) shut down, OK? ,xtG tsooJ

19 years, 5 months

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Fwd: large vanload of NorthStar equipment offered

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Yikes! Don't I wish I lived in the USA! Having written applications in Cbasic on Horizons years ago. I would just love one for my collection. Oh well 'one day in the uk' (maybe) Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 18 March 2007 18:41 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fwd: large vanload of NorthStar equipment offered Well apparently the attachment didn't come through... So here it is inline. Please respond to the original poster directly and not to me. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:14:02 -0500 From: "OLD-COMPUTERS.COM Newsletter" <mail at old-computers.com> Subject: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM ~ donation offer Id: <E1HSv5t-0000N7-41 at mgr14.xmission.com> --------- Hi Tim Deaton, former Northstar dealer, contacted us to offer us as a donation a la rge van load of NorthStar and NorthStar related computers, software, parts and m isc stuff including Horizon, Advantage, and Din- ension chassis and parts, never been used Zenith S-100 buss machine, never opene d software applications packages, old technical manuals, add-on cards and device s, and oddball stuff... Sadly, as we are based in France we can't handle this exceptional donation. So we pass the message to all collectors, mainly those based in the USA. If you want this stuff, there are two conditions: - you must accept to help www.old-computers.com get info & pictures from this st uff to be added to the museum - You will have to do as as Tim say (see his email below) If you are interested, mail me back (olivier at old-computers) explaining why you t hink you can fulfill those two conditions. I will give Tim contacts to the first serious reply. Good luck ___TIM ORIGINAL MAIL________ I have a large van load of NorthStar and NorthStar related computers, software, parts and misc stuff that needs a good home. You can have this stuff IF you will use it responsibly. This includes Horizon, Advantage, and Din- ension chassis and parts. A never been used Zenith S-100 buss machine, never opened software applications packages, old technical manuals, add-on cards and devices, and oddball stuff you probably never thought you would see again. I also have a score of Televideo terminals. I may have some serial cabling and I have A LOAD of Full Height Floppy Disk drives. If you will find them a good home, you can have them but you must pick them up. The cache is located near Indianapolis and I will be returning to the area from my home in Florida in June of this year. If you have a FULL size van and removed the second and third row of seats, you could likely get all the chassis and software packed in. If you want the parts and the terminals, better bring a panel truck. You will have to help me sort them out of the HUGE stash of equipment I have in the garage and office. _____________________________________________________ OLD-COMPUTERS.COM Collectors Mailing =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-= -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 5 months

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OT: Interesting website with Classic Computer feel

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

OK, this has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with Computers, it's actually the web site of a Indie Band. However, it is interesting in that it feels like an Apple ][. http://www.theraconteurs.com/ Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

19 years, 5 months

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PDP-11/40 videos

by wacarder＠earthlink.net

>I'm confused. I wasn't asking you to change the format. Only the file name - >which certainly wouldn't have changed the file size! I am totally inept and >blissfully unaware of anything graphics related. However, I was under the >impression that if the file was named .mpg (or .mpeg) that it could be mp2, >mp3, mp4, whatever, and the decoder would figure it out based on stuff >internal to the file. > >I thought most folks I talked to named all their mpeg files .mpg or .mpeg, >that way they work in any player (that supports the format). Naming them >.mp4 is fine for keeping straight to yourself what format the file is, but >they aren't normally distributed that way I didn't think. > >Again, I know NOTHING about graphics stuff like this. The above is my nieve >assumptions so I could be completely offbase :) > >So I would have thought you would just rename the .mp4 files to .mpeg or >.mpg. Don't keep the .mp4 named ones around. > >But someone would have to confirm the above is correct :) > >Jay > I tried just plain old renaming, and the media player did not like it. After that, I used a video converter program to convert from mp4 to mpg. They apparently are different formats. I am not an expert on this either, but I have done a miniscule amount of dabbling. Ashley

19 years, 5 months

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OT: Interesting website with Classic Computer feel

by james.rice＠gmail.com

On 3/18/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > OK, this has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with Computers, it's actually > the web site of a Indie Band. However, it is interesting in that it > feels like an Apple ][. http://www.theraconteurs.com/ > > Zane > > > > - I found that one a few months ago. it's Jack White's new band. Cool site effects. i wish I had thought of it first. James -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers

19 years, 5 months

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Free to a good home

by ddsnyder＠zoominternet.net

OK, word is out, I'm in Butler, PA. Anytime your in the area, email me, come see my stuff, DEC Alpha's, VAXes, IBM PS/2's, Old PC's, Imsai, Polymorthic and Sol 20. I'm not done, just beginning, I have PC software (DOS), Netware and other soft stuff + manuals. Dan

19 years, 5 months

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govliq: 7 TS05 tape drives (Mechanicsburg, PA)

by legalize＠xmission.com

<http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1162695&convertTo=USD> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 5 months

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govliq: Tektronix 4041 disk drive unit (HD/FD) (Elmendorf, AK)

by legalize＠xmission.com

<http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1161577&convertTo=USD> Looks like it contains a 10 MB hard drive and a 5.25" floppy drive. This connects to the Tektronix 4041 system controller, presumably the main interface is GPIB although the description says RS-232. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 5 months

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govliq: 2 paper tape readers (Mechanicsburg, PA)

by legalize＠xmission.com

<http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=1161585&convertTo=USD> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 5 months

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Gee, nobody has talked about the ASR33 in a while...

by ian_primus＠yahoo.com

Well, as I reorganize and clean, I managed to sidetrack myself from the aforementioned cleaning by playing with my ASR33 TeleType. I have it working properly, and it prints and types correctly - although I have never managed to interface it to anything. I remember a year ago, trying some quickie kludge I found on the 'net, and having it not work. I am struggling to remember what I thought I used to know about TeleType interfaces. Correct me if I'm wrong: The teletype's serial output is compatible with RS232 at the protocol level, and since it's a 33, it's ASCII too. The TeleType is a passive device with a 20ma current loop interface. In order to work, it needs a loop current source (I had to use a 9v radio battery for testing) The signal levels, being 20ma current loop, are NOT compatible directly with RS232C. That being said, it's seemingly possible in some circumstances to interface the two with a diode and a resistor and have it work. In interfacing this thing, I basically want to be able to construct a simple device that 1) supplies loop current, 2) optically isolates the current loop from the RS232 host, and 3) provides proper RS232 signal levels (MAX232, what a wonderful little chip) so that I can connect it to whatever without worrying about blowing up the transceivers. I should be able to scrounge up some optoisolators, I know I have MAX232's and I should have no trouble constructing a simple, transformer based power supply to supply power for both the MAX232 and the loop current. But, I have forgotten some key elements, such as I don't know what an acceptable voltage is to supply the loops, and although I remember reading that the RX and TX used different amounts of juice, I don't remember the specs, and lastly - AC or DC loops? DC, right? What's an acceptable way to create loop current without driving something too hard or blowing something up? Also, my TeleType manual doesn't appear to have information on what screw terminals do what on the terminal strip at the back of the machine - I think I remember which ones were RX and which were TX, but I would like to be sure. It's late... I am bound to have something horribly wrong in my mind (and therefore in this post) right now. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! -Ian

19 years, 5 months

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Free to a good home

by ddsnyder＠zoominternet.net

Sorry, forgot to let everyone reading this post where I'm located, I am located in Butler, PA 16001 Dan Snyder

19 years, 5 months

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Modern Marvels: Computers -- Can you identify these items?

by legalize＠xmission.com

I've put up a web page with some screen grabs from Modern Marvels: Computers and I'm wondering if anyone can help identify a few of the items of interest to me. There are links that take you to a web form for submitting info easily if you recognize the items... <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/vintage/mm_computers.html> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 5 months

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Free to a good home

by ddsnyder＠zoominternet.net

I have been trying to find good homes for some of my stuff, seems most people prefer to recycle for the metal and plastic. Classiccmp has been a place I watch from time to time, seems I'm always in the background.. So.. I would like to offer the following to the collectors who subscribe to this list. 1. Compaq portable, model 1, dual floppies, software and manuals. Excellent condition. 2. Apple PowerMac, I have to check the model, but has a DOS compatibility card. 3. Original IBM EGA monitor, needs repaired, but is in excellent condition. 4. Two IBM PS/2 Model 25's, fully functional, used at a local college. 5. One IBM PS/2 Model 30, fully functional. 6. Original IBM 83 key AT keyboard. I have other PS/2's 80's, 65, 70. I have to see which ones I have to find a new home for. PS/2 motherboards and hard drives. This is the tip of the iceberg as I really need to clear ALOT of stuff out, but do not want to see it scrapped when I do believe I can find some in the Classic Computer list who may need parts/systems. I am more of a user / collector of DEC stuff, microvax's, alpha station and servers. Send any questions / requests, I will try to answer all Dan Snyder

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing

by aek＠spies.com

> How are you doing on supplemental files, Developer materials, Programmer's > Workbench, etc.? I have limited email connectivity right now, which is why I haven't been commenting on the recent archiving discussions. Apple development tools are easily found in CD form, staring with "Phil and Dave's Excellent CD" I probably have a complete set, and I'm pretty sure CHM has one as well. Apple Developers CD's also show up on eBay. re: deposition of collections when you're gone contact the CHM registrar (allision akbay, akbay at computerhistory.org) and she can help setting up something if you would like to donate your collection to the Computer History Museum. I'm obviously biased, since I am responsible for their software collection, but I think that artifacts will be taken care of there.

19 years, 5 months

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Free to a good home

by ddsnyder＠zoominternet.net

I forgot to include three Centronics printers, models 779, 761 and 781. All are complete and I believe they powerup. I have the service manuals for the 779 and 761. These have been kept indoors in a clean environment since I retired them in the early 80's. I am located in Butler, PA 16001 Dan Snyder

19 years, 5 months

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Goodwill Compter works (back on that topic, not bears, etc.)

by jwstephens＠msm.umr.edu

I was holding off comment on this, but today I found out that both of the Orange County Goodwill operations have been "reorganized" and new people are managing them. Luckily, it looks like the people who are in charge won't do anything out front, but there is no telling what the back operation is doing. I think one thing that is stressing goodwill and other thrift stores out here is the "recycling" operations that are picking up at the waste disposal centers here. about 15 or 20 years ago, a friend in Kansas City was a pioneer in the recycling of commercial equipment with the Surplus Exchange. Bruce Holland recognized that a lot of this was just stuff a bean counter wanted off the floor that he was renting and would give it to someone who carted it off. He began taking not just computers but everything not nailed down that an operation didn't want and distributed it to a network of charities for free inKC. In return most of their donations went to the Surplus exchange rather than being turned away. ANyway, now I see that the prices at goodwill for such as 500 to 700 to 1ghz systems is still at the $250 to $350 level, which is just too high. Also a lot of stuff is going to these recyclers, so they are loosing donations, I suspect. Anyway, as to collecting old computers there is probably not that much going to goodwill these days. I suspect most of what comes out are old pentiums, and P2's etc, and it would be pretty hard to get upset with them for loosing the odd old pile in all the stuff they have to deal with. As far as the original posting, from Jim Battle about Austin Goodwill. These operations are not set up to handle a lot of variety in their input. They have to move tons of excess every week, and simply don't have either the trained or sheltered workshop manpower to handle the odd stuff. They are primarily taking the profit the get from any sold donations to hire people with serious life issues, and they will not be spending any money to change their handling of anything, whether computers, antiques or whatever of any kind, but rather keep the basic flow of material going. Wish they could operate in a different way. Even worse, in a town which is the home town it is sad that there is no used computer or electronic surplus store with sufficient business and expertise to take your collectible and sell it, rather than a Goodwill thrift store. These operations are way more endangered now days than used book stores, my other favorite place to get lost in and browse. Ebay for all its flaws is pretty much where you get rid of strange junk these days, or recycle it, unless you are near some operation such as Gateway Electronics in St. Louis, Mo, or whatever similar operation may be around. jim

19 years, 5 months

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Commodore's new PCs

by dm561＠torfree.net

Forwarding: >>> Georg Feil 15/3/2007 12:50 PM >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6454113.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6453339.stm very pretty...

19 years, 5 months

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free for the cost of shipping, from Austin, Texas

by frustum＠pacbell.net

More spring cleaning. Item #1 ------------ For the past eight years I've been keeping a box that supposedly has a B&W CRT in it; it was given to me by a retiring engineer and TRS-80 enthusiast. I finally opened the box and confirmed there is a CRT of some kind it it, although whether or not it is for a trs-80 I haven't checked. I have no need for it; anybody willing to pay shipping on it can have it. It is in great shape and in fact, might be unused. It looks to be about 12" diagonal. There are a lot of different markings on the tube, and I'm not sure which is the most important; in fact, the layout of the markings is such that I can't always tell what goes with what, but I'll try my best: RCA Electron Tube 12VCLP4 Model No. 6 EIA 274 KTR131B Elsewhere it says EIA 1240. Item #2 --------------- I have a heathkit h89 carcas -- it has been stripped of most valuables, but it might have a few parts that someone needs to get their h89 going. Probably the two things that might be of most interest are the CRT and they keycaps. If you want either of those, or want me to check for any other bits on it (mounting brackets or whatever), let me know. It has no floppies and I was told that the electronics had been smoked via an unfortunate application of the wrong voltages. Still, if you want to take a chance, I could pull the cards and let you sort out what might have escaped unharmed.

19 years, 5 months

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old terminals...

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

I think the keyboards were made up by putting keyswitches into a metal plate then wiring them up in row and column form. A ttl system scanned the rows and columns until it found a closed switch. The count was then equal to the value of the character. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 16 March 2007 23:22 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: old terminals... > > Old terminals > > In the UK in the early 1970's I worked for a (then small) UK company > called Newbury Labs. FWIW, Newbury terminals were common at Cambridge University in the 1980s (but were being replaced by BBC micros running a terminal emoulator). I think they were around at other UK universities too. > We made VDU's or video terminals. The early types used eight bit > parallel shift registers as screen memory. > The model number was 2480 i.e. 24 Rows of 80 Characters. They came in > steel enclosures (painted blue!!) The screen was a 12" tube as used in > mono portable TV's. When I needed a replacement CRT for a Volker-Craig terminal (it has an APL cahracter set, which is why I was repairing it), the only way to get one was to buy a cheap protable TV and remove the CRT from it. Nobody stocked the CRT on its own. > We used to spend half an hour on each one fixing up the screen > geometry with small magnets. > > The newer ones used a crude stored program system made out of TTL ie > no Microprocessors. I have a Newbury terminal somwehre. I forget the model, but it's a later one with a separate keyboard linked up by a wide ribbon cable (I think the connections are just the row and column lines of a switch matrix, there's not much, if any, electronics in the keyboard). I've not been inside it for 20 years, but I thought there was a microproceossor in there. I do rememeber a board of TTL incluing some '181 ALUs, though. -tony

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 11:24 PM 3/15/2007, Hex Star wrote: >This way I take some bandwidth, I give back some bandwidth, I take some >files, I give them back to someone else who wants it and that at the same >time also results in many other people being able to enjoy them as well. >Just because I don't have webspace or server to immediately host the files >does not mean that they will never be released for others to download enjoy, >it just means that it won't happen immediately but that it will happen in >the future whenever they're requested. If you don't have web or file server, how do you "give back"? What's your ratio of upload to download? - John

19 years, 5 months

2
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Rack rails - standards?

by ian_primus＠yahoo.com

I've been working on getting things cleaned up in the basement - and part of that involves putting these devices I have into racks. Unfortunately, the devices and the racks rarely find me at the same time, and as such, I wind up with devices with rails bolted to the side of them, and racks with no rails. But, since rails consist of two parts, the rails on the devices are useless, since I don't have the mating rails. I want to rack up a Cipher drive, and my newly accquired Fujitsu Eagle, and I also have a shelf meant for two CDC sabre drives, that will work to hold another CDC drive I have (non sabre, the older one, 9" platters), it should hold the weight. But, none of the rails I have match up, and the CDC shelf uses a special bracket. I have a couple modern PC clone and Sun servers with full railsets, and I tried borrowing rails from them, but of course the holes don't line up with the holes in the devices. And the Dell rails might have worked if they were meant to mount to a standard rack - I have no idea what this square clip/hole thing is supposed to mate with. So, basically, is there a standard for these things at all? Any hole spacing or rail size standard, or did every manufacurere just make their own? On the two Cipher drives I have, the same model, have totally different rails. So that would suggest that there was at least a device bolt hole standard at one point. But, I am sure this is going to be another case of how wonderful standards are - there are so many to choose from... Is there some designation I should look for when hunting rack rails on eBay? The modern rails don't seem to line up with the device holes at all - are there differnt classes or rails for different weights, or am I just lookig too far into this? -Ian

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing?

by dm561＠torfree.net

--------Original Message: Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:48:41 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: ftp archives disappearing? <snip> .... >I'm just an intolerant pain in the ass .... ---------------------------------- At last, something we can agree on... m

19 years, 5 months

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Sorta OT: Good Win9x Telnet server

by cclist＠sydex.com

I know that Windows 9x is a terrible kludgy beast, but I'm looking for a good telnet server to run on a Win9x box. Any suggestions? The ones I've tried usually have such a long character echo turnaround that using them is excruciating. The reason I'm doing this because I'm fooling around at the port level with an ISA card that I'm still trying to figure out. On one system, I'm doing my head-scratching; on the Win9x box, I actually have the card and am doing I/O port fiddling via DEBUG over telnet. If I crash the Win9x box, no biggie--just hit reset. If this doesn't work, I suppose that I can run a terminal emulator on the first box and just boot DOS and ctty to COM1 and hook the two boxes together via RS-232C. But using a serial terminal with MS-DOS does have its own problems. What I'm using now is TelnetXQ from DataWizard on an old PR300 box running 98SE. Suggestions welcome. Cheers, Chuck

19 years, 5 months

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ftp archives disappearing?

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Dave McGuire wrote: Yes, most definitely, I agree. The manufacturer, then, needs to keep their definition of "obsolete" to themselves. If I hear "You fool, why are you using that old thing, it's obsolete!" from its manufacturer, it almost definitely translates to "You know, I work on commission, and I'd really like to make a sale today." [snip] No, you misunderstand my position, or I have misrepresented it. The point I was trying to make was about the notion of "forced obsolescence". If the manufacturer stops selling something long before demand runs out, and doesn't release something substantially better in its place, then THAT is a problem. [snip] It simply boils down to "who says it's obsolete". If it's the manufacturer, and the user disagrees, I see that as a huge problem...especially if there is pressure involved, which there frequently is. I guarantee you the 20-something vendor rep with the power tie and the slicked-back hair who just showed up in your building is NOT standing there worried about whether or not you're on the cutting edge of technology or whether he makes your job easier. THAT is where "forced obsolescence" comes from. It is fake, a lie, and needs to be recognized and ignored when encountered. That is, unless one actually enjoys being bilked for every last dime and having an equipment turnover interval measured in months. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Billy responds: You seem to have a very harsh viewpoint of the manufacturers. I have to protest your first statement that the manufacturers should keep their definition to themselves. Why? They have as much right to stating facts as you do. Your definition of obsolete is not the only one, we both agree. So why can't other people express their definition? The other points you make seem to be in the class of the manufacturers are a bunch of crooks out to bilk their customers. (I've never heard an OEM call a customer a "fool".) How about the benefit of the doubt here - that they are business men trying to make a profit for their employees and stock holders. If a product, no matter how good, can no longer be made profitably, they do not have an obligation to continue to produce it. And if the market has shrunk, there may be no follow on product even though a few users still need it or a similar product. Forced obsolescence is NOT always a fake and a lie. There are usually very valid reasons for it that have nothing to do with bilking customers. It costs a lot of money to develop and roll out new products. But the reality is that consumers are fickle. They demand change, they demand the new. If a company sticks with its mature established products and foregoes development, it usually dies. In my field, disk drives, we would absolutely love to keep making 9GB or better yet, 100MB drives. They would be easy to build, not cost any R&D, overhead would be zip. Problem is no one would buy them. The model turnover measured in months is hell to keep up with; we would love to go slower. But all our competitors who slowed down went out of business. Most recently Maxtor and Cornice; Hitachi is bleeding money right now and may be next. We don't have the luxury of waiting until demand runs out. If demand falls below the profit level, forced obsolescence is the only way to survive. I think you are missing something unique to the electronics industry: the customers expect constant price cuts. Demand may still be strong, but at a price level where the product is not profitable. Most electronic products have a very low profit level, usually 2-5%. It's rough to stay alive. Think about it - in actual dollar amounts, TV sets sell for about the same as they did in the '50s. But cars, houses, clothes, energy, food have all been victims of inflation. Compare the current prices of computers to 5, 10, 15 years ago. People demand electronics to constantly get cheaper. So if a manufacturer wants to meet this demand, he has to find ways to cut costs. A legitimate tool often used is to come out with new models (lower cost) and make obsolete the current product that can no longer be sold profitably. You expect the lower costs - a current 320GB drive costs a fraction of the cost of the 8" floppies when they were new. And the dollar has inflated and lost buying power since then. If the consumer won't pay a profitable price for a mature product, why should a manufacturer be expected to continue to build it? >From my viewpoint, planned obsolescence is necessary to meet the outrageous demands of the consumer. This is the only marketplace I know where the buyers absolutely demand products get cheaper while having more capabilities. If you applied the price/value curve of electronics to cars, a new car would be in the $5-10 range. And everyone on this list would still be able to buy nickel glasses of beer. Billy

19 years, 5 months

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EISA problems

by teoz＠neo.rr.com

The other day I received a 2MB ATI Graphics Ultra Pro video card from a seller on ebay (one of the best 2MB EISA video cards that works with OS/2). My current system is a 486DX50 with a 1MB S3 based EISA video card. When I removed the S3 card and Installed the ATI one the machine would not boot, just beeped. I checked the jumper settings on the ATI to make sure it was VGA enabled and then tried setting the address for the card and still nothing. I put the old S3 in and all was fine. Now my problem is I get a EISA Inoperable message even with the s3 video card, the EISA configuration software I have finds the cards installed but gets a write error when trying to write the configuration to the battery backed chip (Dallas DS1225Y-200). So basically I can only boot to floppy (I have an ISA I/O card with floppy connected), while my 9GB HD connected to the EISA Adaptec card does not show up. Has my Dallas chips battery finally died on me (I had to replace the other Dallas RTC chip when I purchased the board last year, it still keeps time fine)? Did my installing of the ATI damage the Dallas chip by chance? Did I get a defective video card? I need to figure out what's up before I buy another EISA backup chip $15 and wreck it, and decide what to do about the ATI from ebay. Any ideas?

19 years, 5 months

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old terminals...

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Old terminals In the UK in the early 1970's I worked for a (then small) UK company called Newbury Labs. We made VDU's or video terminals. The early types used eight bit parallel shift registers as screen memory. The model number was 2480 i.e. 24 Rows of 80 Characters. They came in steel enclosures (painted blue!!) The screen was a 12" tube as used in mono portable TV's. We used to spend half an hour on each one fixing up the screen geometry with small magnets. The newer ones used a crude stored program system made out of TTL ie no Microprocessors. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 16 March 2007 00:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: old terminals... In article <45F8EAD6.9070607 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> writes: > Richard wrote: > > > The weirder terminals don't use a CPU at all. They use SSI/MSI TTL > > logic. > > I thought the weird ones used Delay lines and/or Core Memory. No, those aren't the weird ones. Those are the unobtainable ones. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

19 years, 5 months

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teletype model 43 value

by dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu

The teletype model 43 appears much more often on Ebay than the ASR33 (which I've never seen there). Is there anything about the model 43 to make it worth acquiring? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

19 years, 5 months

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DEC ROMs [was Re: old terminals...]

by glen.slick＠gmail.com

On 3/16/07, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote: > >>> Do you think it'd be a good idea for me to, over time, pull them out > >>> and read their ROMs for archival or reconstructive purposes? > >> > >> I'd be happy to host images not already > >> there. See particularly the "Wanted!" list in that directory :-) > > > > Oh my, well that saves me a lot of case-cracking! :) I will see if I > > can add a few to your archive. > > Great! Contributions are welcome :-) > Is there already a non-DEC controller firmware archive somewhere? If not, do you have any interest in adding relevant non-DEC controller firmware? For example I've had an Emulex QD21 Q-bus ESDI controller for a while that was dead. I recently pulled and read the EPROM and found it appeared to be almost completely erased. I eventually got another working QD21 and copied its EPROM into the dead one and now it works fine too. I would have been out of luck with the dead one if I couldn't find a good firmware image for it. -Glen

19 years, 5 months

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Anyone seen Fred van Kempen?

by gtoal＠gtoal.com

I've run out of address to try for Fred van Kempen... does anyone have an idea where he is nowadays? I know he dropped off the net once before, and I'm afraid he may have done so again. Unfortunately he has an old PDP11 disk of ours and I need to talk to him to decide what to do about it. Email me his current address please, or pass on to him that I'm trying to contact him please, if you're in touch with him. Thanks Graham Toal (Edinburgh Computer History Project) <gtoal at gtoal.com>

19 years, 5 months

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