At 09:24 PM 7/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>dirt cheap at swap meets and thrift stores and sell it on the internet
>for enough profit to break even on the hobby. It was the only way I
>could get my wife to tolerate it. (Just in case you're wondering I make
I'm the same way, or at least, I would be, if I could bear to part with
anything! 8^)
>it a point to sell stuff at cost on this discussion because, let's face
>it, we're all friends, and I don't like profiting from friends). (No,
likewise. If I've got something I don't think is of interest here, I'll put
it on the AuctionWeb and let it go for whatever the market will pay.
Otherwise, (like the PCjr? carts, which I need to post a message about) I'll
just let things go for what they cost me.
>Eventually I will HTML-ize it and put it up in a web page for people to
I'm working on mine, slowly but surely!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
In message <33c69abc.15979193(a)smtp.ix.netcom.com> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes:
> Some days ago, I mentioned that there was a UK company that used to
> advertise old microprocessors like 9900, Z800x, 32032 and other stuff.
>
> I've just dug up my old issues of Elektor and found the company. It's
> Viewcom, at Plaistow in London.
>
> Perhaps Enrico might want to check if this company still exists and
> its tel/fax number: I've been looking for a 10MHz Z8001 (the one found
> in Ciarcia's Trump card project in Byte).
They're still going.
Viewcom Electronics,
77 Upperton Road West
Plaistow
London E13 9LT
England.
Retail Shop
139 New City Road
Plaistow
London E13 9PX
England
Telephone : 0181-471-9338
Fax : 0181-552-0946
I've dealt with them, and had no problems. If you intend to collect your order,
'phone first, and they'll sort the bits out for you.
>
> The April 1991 issue of Elektor advertises Viewcom as carrying stuff
> like the 9900, 9995 (both TI 16-bit microP). There's even the AMD 9511
The TMS9995 is still listed at \pounds 69.85 (OUCH!)
Z8001B is \pounds 11.96, Z08001-10PSC is \pounds 16.90.
The other devices you mentioned are no longer listed, alas.
> which (if I'm not mistaken) is one of the first math copros for
> microcomputers.
Indeed it is. I have a CCS 8711 card for the Apple ][ that uses this chip.
> Ben
-tony
My Datamaster Troubles...
   Well, I'm reviving my Datamaster. Last year, it worked fine (I at least
could get into Basic). This year, I can't even get it to boot. I have no
manuals for the darned thing, so I have no idea what the numbers on the screen
during the POST mean. I have one reverse-highlighted number:Â "09" and I'm
assuming that this is a hardware failure code.
   I have the "Diagnostic" diskette, but since I think that the floppies are
not working (or the diskette is now bad), it's useless.
   I've done the usual things like cleaning and reseating boards and cables,
with no effect.
   Any clues??
------------------------
Rich Cini/WUGNET
- ClubWin Charter Member (6)
- MCPS Windows 95/Networking
In message <Pine.SOL.3.95.970710235812.10063G-100000@typhoon> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes:
> > Enough of this blathing...anyway, you got my idea. I buy them for
> > quality even they're outragously outdated. The newer ones even Compaq
> > and Toshibas, Sony is now showing QC problems and sunk down as well.
> > Recently a association already issued several critations warning
> > buyers not to buy certain models from them.
>
> Boy - DO NOT get me started on THIS subject!
Nor me. One of the reasons I use classics is that they're so well made and
so reliable. A few weeks back I mentioned at a computer club that a new
hard disk that I'd run for less than 25 _hours_ was already giving me trouble
but that a 25 _year_ old minicomputer on the same desk was still going strong.
> That is a given. 8 bitters rule. Even 16 bitters rule. Tho I do have
> some 4 bitters - they don't rule - they just barely survive 8-)
Err, don't forget the HP Saturn, which is used in almost all their
calculators (including the HP48). That's a 4-bit machine at the hardware
level (and sort-of 64 bit at the software level - strange chip).
And I've found 4 bit microcontrollers in keyboards, 1-line displays, disk
drives (not the controllers - but handling the stepper motor, drive ready,
that sort of thing), and probably more besides.
> There are probably more 8 bit MPU and CPU's in existance now than
> Intel CPU's. They are EVERYWHERE. Kind of like Candid Camera. Where
Don't forget the Microchip PIC (which has an 8-bit ALU and 12 or 14 bit
instructions). Those turn up in just about anything nowadays. There's even
one in my Laserprinter....
> you least expect it. Cars, phones, thermostats, elevators, games, man
TV's, VCR's, CD players, monitors, IR remote handsets, toys, etc...
> you name it - SOMEONE put a 6502/8085/6809 into it!
Or an 8048, 8051, ST6, PIC, COP4, COP8, 7810, or something custom.
> BC
-tony
In message <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20578947C(a)RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes:
> REPAIRING CAPACITIVE KEYBOARDS
> v1.0 7/10/97 Kai Kaltenbach
>
> ---> What are capacitive keyboards?
>
> The vast majority of capacitive keyboards were and are manufactured by
> Keytronics of Spokane, Washington. The mechanism is really quite
> simple. A keypress pushes a foil circle onto the surface of a printed
Note that the foil (actually a metal layer) is on the inside surface of a
plastic disk on the end of the key plunger. It doesn't actually make
contact with the PCB
> circuit board, thus completing the circuit and registering the keypress
More correctly it increases the capacitance between 2 tracks on the PCB.
> to the computer. Capacitive keyboards are very reliable; however, they
> will fail over time even if unused.
>
> Each foil contact circle is backed by a cylinder of PVC foam. The foam
> is subject to environmental deterioration. Once the foam loses its
> elasticity or dissolves entirely, the keys will stop working because the
> foil circles will no longer make good contact with the PC board.
> Various classic computer systems, such as the Processor Technology Sol,
> exhibit this problem after their 20+ year lifespan.
I've once seen a fault where the metal layer vanished, leaving the foam
intact. No idea what happened, but it didn't work, of course.
>
> ---> How do I tell if I have a capacitive keyboard?
>
> Just remove a key cap -- if there is a separate spring under the key
> cap, around the plunger, it's extremely likely that it's a capacitive
> keyboard. They won't always say Keytronic on the outside of the
> keyboard housing.
These keyboards are _everywhere_. I've seen them 'made' by PERQ, Apricot,
Acorn, Tektronix, FTS, and probably more. The only problem is that some of
those are classics in themselves, and probably shouldn't be raided for
spares.
>
> ---> What do I need to start a repair job?
>
> First you need a set of replacement foam pads. Each foam pad is a
> cylinder about 1/4" in diameter and 3/16" long. There is a semi-rigid
> clear plastic circle attached to one end of the pad, and a foil cylinder
> attached to the other end.
>
> The only toosl you'll need are a #1 Philips screwdriver and a very small
> standard screwdriver such as those pen-clip types frequently included in
Every Keytronics keyboard I've dismantled has needed a smaller Phillips
screwdriver (size O?) to remove the PCB from the keyframe.
> computer tool kits (plus whatever tools are necessary to remove the
> keyboard from its enclosure).
>
> ---> Where do I get replacement pads?
>
> If you're a perfectionist, you can order replacement pads from Keytronic
> Corporation (http://www.keytronic.com/). However, it's much easier to
Seriously? Do they do other spares as well. There's a couple of custom
chips (see below) in almost all of these keyboards, and a source of
spares would be handy.
> simply find a capacitive keyboard in your local computer junk/surplus
> store and strip it for replacement pads (see above for info on
> identifying such keyboards).
-----> So, What are the Custom Chips ?
There are, in general 2 off 20 pin custom chips in a keytronics keyboard (some
later ones have a single 40 pin chip, but I know nothing about that).
22-908-3B
8-channel sense amplifier
1 : Row 0
2 : Row 1
3 : Row 2
4 : Row 3
5 : Reset/sync output
6 : Row 4
7 : Row 5
8 : Row 6
9 : Row 7
10 : Ground
11 : Out 7
12 : Out 6
13 : Out 5
14 : Out 4
15 : Out 3
16 : Out 2
17 : Out 1
18 : Out 0
19 : Reset in
20 : +5V
Outputs are believed to be open-collector
22-950-3B
keyboard column decoder/driver.
1 : Col 8
2 : Col 9
3 : Col 10
4 : Col 11
5 : Latch Clock
6 : Select 0 (LSB Input)
7 : Select 1
8 : Select 2
9 : Select 3
10 : Ground
11 : Sync Input
12 : Col 0
13 : Col 1
14 : Col 2
15 : Col 3
16 : Col 4
17 : Col 5
18 : Col 6
19 : Col 7
20 : +5V
-tony
In message <Pine.SOL.3.95.970710232706.10063D-100000@typhoon> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes:
> > of the old machines. I collect, but I admit is has to make some sense to
> > me as in useful or have some specific linkage to my place in this
> > history.
>
> But this is a collectors list 8-) We all collect from that which we know.
Not necessarily. I've bought things at radio rallies (hamfests) because 'it
looked interesting'. Only later did I discover what I really had. If I'd
always waited to find out what a particular item really was, then I'd probably
have missed all the interesting stuff, and have a totally trivial collection.
However, it does help to have some idea as to what things are. And to know what
they look like from all angles :-)
> You must have been - what - 8 years old 8-) Great story! I think we all
> have one of those - where everybody kinda stares at you - wondering -
> What the Hell is THAT? What are you doing with that - THING?
Yep, got a load of them. Taking a trolley piled high with computer parts across
Cambridge on a weekday afternoon is good for that :-). Or the time I carried
a DEC Rainbow on a train - VR201 in one hand (using the built-in handle),
CPU under the other arm, and keyboard in my pocket. Dismantling the CPU
mid-journey (it needs no tools) added to the amusement. Then there was the time
I carried an IBM PC/AT box on a train. It got the comment 'That's one hell of
a laptop' :-). Or the time I was carrying a Creed 7E (baudot printing terminal)
and was asked if I had a pen. My reply was 'no, but I have a teleprinter' :-)
Still, what's wrong with being slightly mad?
>
> BC
>
>
-tony
In message <Pine.SOL.3.95.970710191732.26431A-100000@typhoon> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes:
>
> First - if you don't want to hear my opinion - stop now! I am going to
> get pretty detailed about what the list is/should be about. I may hurt
> some feelings - but well hell - that's life!
Is it time to start a classic computers meta-list to discuss what should be
on the classic computers list ?
> Currently, this list is set on the aquistion of hardware. One reason
> is to get it before it's GONE. Another, is the ECONOMY of collecting.
> (I buy it for 10 and sell it for 15 Sam 8-) The point being, in two
> years, if we did nothing - you may NEVER be able to buy it because
> someone junked it! Nothing wrong with making hay while the sun shines.
Absolutely. In some cases, the number of remaining machines of a particular
type can be counted on the fingers of one hand - in unary :-). If we don't
grab them when we can, then information on these machines will be lost for
ever.
>
> The history of computing doesn't lend itself to the IMMEDIACY of hardware.
> The history of computing IS. There is no cost in learning it,
> understanding it, and aquiring it.
I think I disagree here. It's a lot easier to figure out the history of a
machine while the people who used it for real work (and even better the
people who designed/built it) are still alive, and can still remember the
machine. So there's some urgency here, but less than the 'Here's a 1-off
prototype that will go in the skip if you don't get it today' type of thing.
A lot of computer history, particularly over the last 20 or so years has not
(IMHO) been adequately recorded. What I'd love to see would be complete
documentation on all the classic computers - how the hardware worked, how the
software worked, when it was introduced, why it was introduced, what went
wrong, what should have been done differently, what was good about it, etc.
But to do that for just _one_ machine would be a major undertaking (I've
tried writing some hardware docs, and it takes a long time!).
But some of that info is likely to die with the _designers_, not with the
machines, alas.
> I would probably die if someone wanted to give me the Intellec MDS that
> Gary wrote CPM on. That is too much to hope for in this world 8-)
Aside : It's probably possible to find a similar machine (although not
_THE_ one) if you hunt for long enough. I've found an CS8i and an MDS800
second-hand.
> I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul".
The main reason I get little from these messages is that the situation is
very different in different countries (Acorn machines are lot easier to
find in the UK than in the States, while CoCo3's are almost unknown over
here). And of coure prices are very different as well.
> BC
-tony
In message <33C673A3.6EA5(a)rain.org> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes:
> Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on
> computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem.
I've got a few (I'm interested in telegraph and telephone history as well as
computers, but my main collection is computer-related). It's not a large
part of my collection, though.
In the UK, modems were _rented_ from the GPO (== post office, who also ran
the telephone system) at one time, like all other telephone equipment. Some
of these modems are interesting technically - the earlier ones were about
14" square and 6" high, and contained plug-in modules for the PSU, modulator,
demodulator, and controller. It was all discrete components (no chips), and
some of the control used PO 3000-style relays (similar to the ones used in
telephone exchanges). The demodulator was strange. It filtered the incoming
signal (a multi-stage LC filter housed in a tobacco-tin sized box!), and then
mixed it with a local oscillator to shift the frequency up. The output of that
was filtered again, and fed to a 2-diode discriminator. The output of that
was buffered and became the data output. It was basically a superhet FM
receiver modified to work at the right frequency.
Another strange GPO modem was the 13A. It's a 1" (approx) high plinth that was
fitted under a Type 746 'phone that had extra 'voice' and 'data' buttons
fitted. I know nothing about the circuitry in that one, but it's a rather neat
unit.
There were also things called 'isolation boxes' that were used to prevent
faults in the user's equipment damaging the modem (or worse still the 'phone
line). Typically they contained a number of zener diodes from each line of the
RS232 connector to ground (2 diodes in inverse series per line), and some 50mA
fuses in series with each line that would blow if there was overvoltage on that
line.
Such things are probably useless now, but I like to have all the bits of a
classic setup, including little details such as this.
> I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe
The term 'modem eliminator' normally meant 'null modem cable', and was a
passive device.
-tony
Yep, that was Cinematronic's excellent vector version of Space War,
released in 1978. It was two-player only, and had several innovations,
including the ability to shoot off part of your opponent's ship, and the
selection of multiple game options at the start of your game (e.g.
positive/negative gravity, invisible sun, etc.)
The upright cabinet was huge, almost double-wide, but I would dearly
love to come up with the cocktail version
(http://brain.usask.ca/arcade/spacewar.htm) It'd be a nice complement
to my Computer Space.
Kai
> ----------
> From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers
> Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 1997 11:05 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade")
>
> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
>
> > Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first
> > vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by
> > Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home
>
> I seem to recall spending many many hours (and quarters) with my
> roommate
> playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were
> fresh
> out of the USAF back in 1978 and spending loose hours at the Saint
> James
> Infirmary in Sunnyvale.
> --
> Ward Griffiths
> "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within
> the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe
>
Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> writes:
> Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on
> computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem.
I have a few, but not what I would call "early". An old Omnitec 701A
(s/n 3) acoustic coupler that I used to use with a Teletype ca. 1978
(still worked when I tried it about a year ago, too). Also some S-100
modems, including a couple each of PMMI MM-103 and Hayes Micromodem
100, and what I am guessing is an earlier (1978) effort by D. C. Hayes
called the 80-103A.
> I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe
> these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible
> cable length.
It depends. They may also provide clock signals for synchronous DTEs
(as would ordinarily be done by the modems).
-Frank McConnell
