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101090 discussions

You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet)

by peacock＠simconv.com

> From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > > Actually, it's all discrete TTL chips (74S181 ALUs, 74161's for the > program counter, etc). The KMC11 and DMR11 (a later version That's right 'ls181, a crude bit slice ALU. I remember there was a way to download microcode directly, the RSX driver supported it. None of those cool 2900 series slices were around yet, maybe even the 8x305 was still on the drawing board. I still have the AMD 2901 design book, heavy going but it tells you everything you ever want to know about building a CPU from scratch. I don't suppose anyone has some kind of system built from 2901 bit slices? Roll your own microcoded instruction sets? Jack Peacock

28 years, 4 months

by POLARIS＠VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU

Hello - could you add me to the list? Thanks, Dave Forsyth

28 years, 4 months

You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet)

by maynard＠jmg.com

Allison, this was private email, but I figure this may be actually of interest to the group. There's nothing here personal, or insulting anyway... OK. So Allison says the HEX bus 11/44 ran a BSD variant with networking. I would guess a Q-BUS CPU with memory management like the 11/23 and 11/73 line should run this BSD variant as well... what I want to know is, did the kernel fit into 64K in one segment, or did they spread the kernel across segment bounderies? If so, how? I mean, I could see overlays (in the kernel... blech!), but I don't remember the 11 supporting long long jumps... and address value was 16 bits, period. Still, I was never great at 11 assembly. Could someone here give a good detailed account of PDP-11 segment mapping support? Could my stack and register values be retained and follow while moving from segment to segment? And how the hell did you tell the memory manager you wanted to pop to another segment, anyway? The curious want to know.... --jmg > Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:40:32 -0400 > From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > To: maynard(a)jmg.com > Subject: Re: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) > > > < I find it tough to believe that a BSD kernel with networking > < fit into the 64K memory segments of the PDP11... The copy of > < Venix I ran on my 11/23 didn't support networking and the > < kernel most _definately_ fit into only one segment. > > Venix didn't, but IP and friends was developed on PDP11s! It definately > fit and was run on 11/44s and the like so it would fit on an 11/23. That's > not to say there wasn't whole lto a swapping goin on. > > Allison > >

28 years, 4 months

[OFF TOPIC?] Fixed Freq Monitor Questions

by maynard＠jmg.com

OK, This is mildly on topic. My monitor is an HP 1097C, making it at least 10 years old. However, I am using it with a modern PC, so that's where the 'on topic' issue gets a little iffy. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who can answer this question. A pointer to a FAQ would be most welcome. These old monitors are Fixed frequency, unlike our modern monitors which multisync. The 1097C supports only a 78.125 khz Horizontal Scan Rate and a 72hz Vertical Refresh Rate. Now a couple of years ago I foolishly bought one of those cards by Mirage (www.mirage-mmc.com) which is supposed to be a 'fixed freq video card'. Actually, it's an OEM Diamond card, basically an S3/968 video processor with an IBM 52x RAMDAC - ala Diamond Stealth VRAM. The fixed Freq hacks are basically a resistor (and a jumper selection) to drive sync over green, and a homebrew PROM to skew the VESA frequencies for several video and text modes. It works, but Mirage hasn't been too helpful with getting a variety of XFree86 modelines, even though they claim to support Linux and XFree86. They give out _one_ modeline for 1280 x 1024, which they swiped from the XFree86 distribution in 'Monitors.txt'. For Windows and Dos, they give out a video driver which seems to work just fine. It will even display 320x200 full screen (Quake works great in DOS!), and boots to a functional 80x24 col text mode. How the hell do they do this? Here is how I'm calculating my video modes based in the XFree86VideoModes HOWTO (found in every Redhat 5 distribution): Dot Clock Per Second Total Horizontal Pixels Per Line = -------------------------- Horizontal Scanning Rate Since my refresh rate must be at 72hz to sync with the HP1097C: Dot Clock Refresh Rate = ------------------------------------------------- Horizontal Frame Length * Vertical Frame Length So, it's really more constructive to think of this as how many pixels _total_ do I need to display in order to get a 72 hz vertical scan rate with any arbitrary dot clock? In this case I need Dot Clock Total Pixels Per Frame (HFLxVFL) = ------------- Refresh Rate Since I know my Horizontal Pixels Per Line, I can use this to determine the number of vertical lines which will support a 72 hz refresh rate.... hmmm, this is where things get sticky. We'll start with a DCL of 10Mhz... 10Mhz Dot Clock 128 Horizontal Pixels = ----------------------------- 78125 hz Vertical Scan Rate 10 Mhz Dot Clock 138888 Total Pixels = --------------------------- 72 hz Refresh Rate 138888.88 Pixels 1085 Vertical Lines Per Frame = ----------------------- 128 Horizontal Pixels Sheesh! A (total) screen resolution of 128H x 1085V? What about a 20 Mhz dot clock? Well, after graphing the results I quickly observed this: S | T C | o R R | 128H 256H 384H 512H 640H 1728H ** T E E | x x x x x x A E S | 1085V 1085V 1085V 1085V 1085V 1085V L N | | DCL ----+------+-------+-------+-------+------- [...] ----+----- 10 20 30 40 50 135 (** Perfect for a usful screen resolution of 1280x1024) So, based on this, I cannot get small or talored screen resolutions unless I am willing to accept wide borders and strange resolutions. Yet my card works....It does _not_ display this behavior... so I suspect my thinking is to blame. Will someone please correct me? Apologies if you consider this post off topic... J. Maynard Gelinas

28 years, 4 months

You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet)

by peacock＠simconv.com

> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] > > 802.. eithernet was always 10mbit/s. The 1.5mhz stuff was > arcnet. They > are similar in that they are both bus topology using CSMA/CD > arbitration. > Not quite. Arcnet was not a CSMA/CD but token passing, more in common with Token Ring rather than Ethernet. Arcnet used a bus, but a token was passed along to each node and that node sent a packet only when it got the token. Whenever a new node came online the rest of the nodes would reconfigure and start the token over again. Collisions only occured when new nodes came on line the first time. IIRC it was Datapoint that first came up with Arcnet for their multi-user terminals. For a small number of static nodes the Arcnet throughput was actually quite good. Whereas ethernet is probabilistic for access, token passing is deterministic in that you are guaranteed a slice of bandwidth to every node. At a minimum you always had roughly 1/n of available bandwidth, where n was the number of nodes. Arcnet degraded in a linear fashion as nodes were added, but Ethernet degradation can approach geometric rates, as anyone knows when they see that collision light on the UTP hub go on solid. Also, Arcnet was 2.5Mbps. The original version used coax (not Ethernet thinwire! I think it was RG-92?) into hubs, later versions went to twisted pair. There was a 20Mbps follow-up from SMC (the primary chip maker for Arcnet) but it never caught on. Arcnet was a common networking standard for S-100 systems in the early to mid 80s, using MP/M and CP/NET from Digital Research. I think it was one of the first network transports supported by NetWare too. Jack Peacock

28 years, 4 months

Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Sam, you have to understand that if people don't feel comfortable asking questions on this list, even if they are irrelevant, they won't ask anything at all. You can't intimidate people if you want them to deal with you. In response to the original question: the isolinear chips are supposed to be holographic memory, which is in the works, and will allow terabytes of storage in several cubic centimeters, just like on the Enterprise. The nanites have an advanced version of modern nanomachinery. I would think that .5 micron hard drives are easier in this case. As for the ancient storage, I think that was magnetic. Interestingly enough, the classic trek had almost nothing in the way of computers, though there were plenty of them out there in the '60s >"REALLY". > >Thanks in advance. > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > >> Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they >> use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short >> and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can >> transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing >> that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold >> entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, >> little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were >> microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon >> ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data >> intact. >> Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? >> Feasable? >> Thanks, >> >> Tim D. Hotze >> >> > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/08/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 4 months

Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?)

by Marty＠itgonline.com

Not to beat a dead horse, but I believe Tim's question was relevant. I read about optical storage using holography well over ten years ago but am unaware of its present use or status. This may not strictly qualify as classic computer subject matter but shouldn't we give a 12 year-old a break? Tim should be commended and encouraged for his interest in computer science and preservation, not hen-pecked over the fact that he related his question to a Star Trak episode. Keep asking questions Tim and don't let anybody intimidate you into silence. Marty Mintzell ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 4/10/98 2:09 PM Star Trek is a television show. Do you really think that this question is appropriate? Two words... alt.startrek van >Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they >use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short >and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can >transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing >that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold >entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, >little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were >microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon >ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data >intact. > Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? >Feasable? > Thanks, > >Tim D. Hotze ......................................................................... @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ......................................................................... for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page(a)wired.com van(a)wired.com van(a)futuraworld.com pingpong(a)spy.net vanburnham(a)aol.com ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Apr10.140909.1767.36428; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:09:15 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id LAA18051; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:03:44 -0700 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id LAA63546 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:03:35 -0700 Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id LAA04060 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:03:34 -0700 Received: from [206.221.206.170] (wrs.wired.com [206.221.206.170]) by wired.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15918 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:01:03 -0700 Message-Id: <v03110700b1540e831ecb(a)[206.221.206.170]> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:14:44 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Van Burnham <van(a)wired.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: <001001bd64a0$934d3ee0$3167bcc1@hotze> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: van(a)pophost.wired.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

28 years, 4 months

eBay = Mkt Value? (was: my objection to recent postings)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 01:07 AM 4/9/98 -0700, you wrote: >I agree. Ebay is definitely NOT indicative of "actual market value". Its >all based on scarcity, and scarcity varies from area to area around the >country and the world. Someone thinking they got a great deal on a >complete C64 system for $25 got ripped off since I can pick up something >similar locally for less than $10. Well, "actual market value" is exactly what eBay is -- the value of an object (i.e., what it sells for) on the open market. Ya can't get much more open than eBay, what with it's internationalism. As to whether prices on eBay represent what experienced, knowledgeable collectors will pay, that's another story. And lastly, yes, values are determined in large part by scarcity. Here in San Francisco, a postcard with a picture of the Golden Gate Bridge will cost me 25 cents (or so). In New York, I'd probably have to pay a bit more for one, and still more if I were in, say, Ayr, Scotland. Here in the SF area, a lot of computers are readily available, and affordable. This is a very technically aware locale, and a lot of the people here were early-adopters of computer technology (unlike, say, parts of Pennsylvania that are primarily Amish.) So they'll be cheaper here than elsewhere. So people in PA can either pay higher prices there, buy over the net (including eBay), or hop a plane to SF. As a side note, it always makes me laugh when at antique shows when I see some item for sale for $15 that I know can be bought at Disneyland, brand new, for $3. But people pay those prices, because not everyone goes to DLand every year. >Ugh! Don't do that! Sell it to someone who would appreciate and >actually use it (like me! :) That's a tough call. Do you sell it to someone who will use it and appreciate it for what you paid for it, or do you put it on eBay so you can pay the property taxes? I haven't got an answer to that one yet. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 4 months

E & L MMD1 8080 trainer board

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1903 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/061087ac/at…

28 years, 4 months

Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?)

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Well, it really depends. After asking my self, I said "No." Then, after contemplating it, and asking again, I have to say "Yes." First of all, it deals with the preservation of data, something that collecters must be knowledgable about, especially if they have origional/interesting software. -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) > >This is a Star Trek question and has absolutely no place on this >discussion. > >When posting a message to ClassicCmp, ask yourself this question: "Does >this REALLY have ANYTHING to do with old computers?" After you answer it >to yourself, ask it again, but this time put extra emphasis on the word >"REALLY". > >Thanks in advance. > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > >> Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they >> use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short >> and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can >> transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing >> that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold >> entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, >> little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were >> microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon >> ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data >> intact. >> Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? >> Feasable? >> Thanks, >> >> Tim D. Hotze >> >> > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/08/98] >

28 years, 4 months

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