>> You just searched a phon directory ? Didn't you ? Or
>> who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ?
>> True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance.
>> Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite
>> good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display
>> is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer
>> displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_
>> unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build
>> some junk place.
> It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was there
> earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!!
I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is
there a Website to get the opening hours ?
> The digital computing collection seems to consist of the Pilot ACE (worth
> seeing, but it's _never_ in operation), the Babbage difference engine
> (again, well worth seeing), and a poor collection of random bits of more
> modern machines/peripherals.
Oh, thats also the best description for the 'modern' displays
in the Deutsches Museum: random bits. Especialy for the small
devices.
>> Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first
>> fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes -
>> they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete,
>> including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would
>> have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and
>> power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible,
>> but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old
>> tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone
>> will be here to tell the story.
> We've had this discussion here before. Museums are (IMHO) too interested
> in preserving the fabric of a device (which is important, but not the
> most important thing) rather than the operation. My guess is that in
> (say) 50 years time there will be machines in museums that are still in
> exactly the same condition as when they were taken out of service, but
> nobody knows how to get them running again, what they were really used
> for, or how to operate them. We (as in the majority of people on this
> list) are doing the opposite in general. We keep machines working, even
> if it means doing some non-original repairs (but we try to keep things as
> original as possible). I suspect our collections and those of museums
> will both be of value in the future, but for different reasons.
Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous
display in action, but even if it is just as static display,
this one time running test ist the best verification that the
static display is _complete_.
(In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum -
even back in time when it was new, every power up and down
had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since
the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible)
by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking)
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
> But then you're missing all the fun of watching the drum! That's the
> cool part about REALLY old machines. With them, one could still get
> his hands dirty in oil, as opposed to dust.
The drum was (is) capsuled. Nothing to wiew beside a big
old e-motor.
Gruss
H.
(hates exchange)
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Guys:
I am posting this message on the behalf of a third party.
PLease contact him directly.
For Sale:
IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer
This is the model with the switches on the front panel (non turnkey).
Inside:
Several memory boards
Original IMS CPU
Tarbell tape controller
MicroComplex Phase Lock II FDC (by Frank Hogg)
Video Adaptor/Keyboard Interface
Outside:
External Keyboard
Dual Cassette drives (they look pretty strange)
Dual 5.25 Floppy drives (non IMSAI)
There is 'A Ton' of software for this thing, and it's supposed to
run CP/M (I've seen the docs, but not the floppies). All of the
boards, software, etc. have the original docs. Alot of the software
is on cassette.
There are also a bunch of spare boards:
qty Make Model Whatizit?
--- ------------- --------------------- --------------
11 Micro Complex Phase Lock II FDC
1 North Star MDC-A2 MDC
1 Coex 64k Static RAM
1 Tanner 64k Static Ram
1 MITS 8800 CPU CPU Card
1 Solid State Music S-100 Video Interface
1 Morrow 8k RAM Module
1 WameCo EPM-2 EPROM Board
1 PolyMorphic Syst. A/D + D/A
2 Morrow/Godbout Econo-RAM 4k memory
1 STM 8k(?) RAM Board
1 Celetron Altair Board Extender
1 Vandenburg Data 16k Static Ram
The seller would favor selling the whole lot.
Asking price: $300
Contact:
Denys G. Fredrickson
denysgf(a)juno.com
>> At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did
>>>you guys carry around to start out with?
>>> I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as
>>>some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had
>>>been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette
>>>rewinds it, it is still readable.
>> First??? DECtape, 1 inch wide on the 4 inch reels from the PDP-8 in the
>> OMSI computer labs. On occasion 8 level paper tape from the teletypes that
>> we used to access a GE time-share system in Seattle.
> Well I guess this dates me, but , 80 column punch cards. Do
> not bend ,spindle or mutilate.
> The only benefit was when a few years later on my advertising
> distribution company was delivering a promo for a large supermarket
> firm that shall go unnamed, cards that had some prizes included.
> The cards were put thru an interpreter at the check-out counter
> and some were winning cards if you had the item mentioned in
> your basket. Since I could read the cards we pulled some of the
> better prizes and presented them at different stores.
> " Oh I won a Steak ? Thats great , I just happen to have one in
> my basket."
> We lived more dangerously in those days.
Nice - I could offer 9 hole paper tape over a (modified)
T100 Teletype on my Kim - before that I used paper and
pencile until the program was 'finished' and than an PROM
burner for archiving - superiour accestime :)
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
<Yes, relays are a lot slower than electronic devices, and yes, they may
<be less reliable. But they're not as slow as all that.
They are reliable, especially the sealed ones...saves extracting
bugs(moths) with tweezers(aka: Lt Hopper).
Speed; the problem is cascade. I've worked with relay trees of good size
and while each can do 10s of repetitions persecond tens of them in cascade
can only complete one cycle in a second. To do logic like a counter
using relays is slow even though the individual relays may be fairly
fast. Though using s stepper relay is faster than chained relays.
Allison
> I agree with you completely...however evil ebay may be, at least it is a
> structured enviornment with rules and etiquette that is regulated.
Agreed
> I am of the opinion that some of these characters are scrounging around
> ebay and newsgroups soliciting bidders just to get out of paying the
> commission...then they invent these rediculous auction scenarios. I think
> there should be some sort of formal boycott.
I still like sBay an similar systems. At least they secure the
process a bit - like in an ordinary auction. And auctions are,
for shure, no place for rare or most wanted items. Not VL and
not RL. But they are a good thing to get fair prices for some
unusual or common things. I bought some rare spare parts via
eBay for just cents (and a brand new never opened never used
complete Mac IIsi for less than 100 USD :). But the best hits
are always on ordinary swap markets (flea markets) (like today
*g*) - even electronic swaps tend to have high prices.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
> Allison J Parent wrote:
>><> Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels
>><> Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree.
>><> Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of
>>> diodes and neon filled tubes.
>><A good definition, I could agree, althrough I've seen
>><Electric and Electronic the same, since a relay isn't
>><diferent from a transistor or a tube for the effekt
>><(beside the current).
>> The distinction for the last two is significant from a design and speed
>> standpoint. the design process is very different at the detail level.
> Yah, with a relay-based system, a one-hertz clock speed would be
> setting a record.
Woooooosh - Your 'record' machine was just bypassed by
a 1941 Zuse build from junk telephone relais.
According to Zuse a multiplication took 3 seconds. A
Multiply nedded 16 Machine cycls and 16/3 equals to
5.33 Hz - just - 5 times faster - calculated on cycles,
but one cyle had 5 stages. Satge 1 to 3 where used for
execution, while 4 and 5 are used for load and fetch -
the operation fetch ocuresd simultaniously to the store.
So even this early had paralell working units (didn't
tried Intel to tell us that this was one of the big
inventions of the Pentium - you know the processor with
all the little rainbow coloured man inside instead of
the usual LGM)
Althrough the speed was something like 5 or 6 Hz, it
is legal to speak about a clock speed of 15 to 18 Hz
when comparing to newer machines.
And for relay speed itself - 40 to 100 (controlled)
switchings per second have been possible for pre war
relais and EMS relais (technique of the 60s) are able
to do up to 1500 Hz - we tried it 20 years back :)
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
But then you're missing all the fun of watching the drum! That's the
cool part about REALLY old machines. With them, one could still get
his hands dirty in oil, as opposed to dust.
>>> who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ?
>>> True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance.
>
>>> Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite
>>> good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display
>>> is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer
>>> displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_
>>> unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build
>>> some junk place.
>
>> It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was
there
>> earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!!
>
>I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is
>there a Website to get the opening hours ?
>
>> The digital computing collection seems to consist of the Pilot ACE
(worth
>> seeing, but it's _never_ in operation), the Babbage difference engine
>> (again, well worth seeing), and a poor collection of random bits of
more
>> modern machines/peripherals.
>
>Oh, thats also the best description for the 'modern' displays
>in the Deutsches Museum: random bits. Especialy for the small
>devices.
>
>>> Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first
>>> fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes -
>>> they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete,
>>> including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would
>>> have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and
>>> power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible,
>>> but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old
>>> tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone
>>> will be here to tell the story.
>
>> We've had this discussion here before. Museums are (IMHO) too
interested
>> in preserving the fabric of a device (which is important, but not the
>> most important thing) rather than the operation. My guess is that in
>> (say) 50 years time there will be machines in museums that are still
in
>> exactly the same condition as when they were taken out of service,
but
>> nobody knows how to get them running again, what they were really
used
>> for, or how to operate them. We (as in the majority of people on this
>> list) are doing the opposite in general. We keep machines working,
even
>> if it means doing some non-original repairs (but we try to keep
things as
>> original as possible). I suspect our collections and those of museums
>> will both be of value in the future, but for different reasons.
>
>Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous
>display in action, but even if it is just as static display,
>this one time running test ist the best verification that the
>static display is _complete_.
>
>(In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum -
>even back in time when it was new, every power up and down
>had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since
>the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible)
>by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking)
>
>Gruss
>H.
>
>--
>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>HRK
>
______________________________________________________
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Sorry about the white space, I'm using Lynx, as always...
I agree with that! I've taken two sets of disks for Mac System 7 from
a Mac Lab, and both had bad disks. OTOH, the 6.0.4 disks still work
fine, probably because of the lower density. Sometimes I wonder if
there's something wrong w/my drives, but they can read data written
by other drives...
>a month later. And yes my drive heads are clean, and the drive is set
up
>as per the service manual.
>
>Sometimes I wish I could pay more for a disk and get one that lasts. My
>data is worth a lot more than $5 or whatever.
>
>>
>> New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what
system) did
>> you guys carry around to start out with?
My first exposure to storage was 5.25" disks in third grade for the
Apple ][. It was old then. We were being terrorized by a moron who
spent a month telling us to put disks into a sleeve. I wondered if
he knew to do anything else. BTW, can a disk be damaged if taken out
while it is being read from? That was a sin I had commited...
>
>After that came : magnetic cards on an HP41CV, 5.25" floppies
(initially
>on the school's RML380Z, then on my TRS-80), paper tape (I got a
>non-working ASR33 and repaired it), 8" floppies, 3" floppies, punched
>cards, 3.5" floppies, hard disk packs, 9 track tapes, QIC tapes.
>
>Of course many of those are used on more than 1 machine, and I'm only
>listing the first time I used them.
>
>-tony
>
>
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