<Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem
<that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks,
<althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write
<anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters).
Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape.
<PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are
I have floppies from then to bot readable and not. more are readable
than not.
What that means is every ten years update to new media to preserve the
data.
<Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling
<EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS
Maybe... they realy on charge storage and that can dissapate in time.
Also xrays, cosmic rays and whatever can erase them! This does not
include the ambient moisture getting to the silicon and rendering it to
sand.
<(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even
Fuse link proms were even worse. I've had them grow back or develope
other defects over time. AIM proms are better but still if overstressed
at programming they can exhibit failure over time.
<longer. So just copy them. And beside the information -
<it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or
<2708 not already needed for an old computer.
In the case of 27xx devices, if they forget reprogram the same one if
it's still good. If it failed well... find another?
<> takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose
<> screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's
<
<> If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see
<> and I don't want it to happen again.
I've also had those regulators drift with age. Like any IC they can fail
of many ways!
Allison
>>> Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers
>>> are in any sense being preserved properly. I would doubt
>>> if ROMs were ever backed up or PSUs tested.
>> Hmm, IMSAI's didn't have ROMs (or PALs and FPGAs, programmable logic had
> The topic has drifted somewhat from the subject line - I wasn't only
> refering to IMSAIs, but also to LISAs, etc, which most certainly do
> contain ROMs.
:) And also the most IMSAI I'v seen (on other boards - just
to get power up a bit more comfortable :)
> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to
> be backed up.
Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem
that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks,
althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write
anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters).
So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed
lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some
PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are
900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical
medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then
try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ?
This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like
old magnetic tapes).
Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling
EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS
(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even
longer. So just copy them. And beside the information -
it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or
2708 not already needed for an old computer.
>> yet to be invented), unless you added them in yourself. As for checking
>> the power supply, an IMSAI was extremely easy to eyeball...huge
>> transformer, diodes, and beer can size capacitors. One problem I never
> Yes, but there are regulators on each S100 card. If you've got a card
> with rare socketed chips on it, I'd pull the chips and power up the card
> without them the first time. Then check the local +5V rail, etc. It only
> takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose
> screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's.
> If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see,
> and I don't want it to happen again.
I hope you keep this attitude for the next 20 years.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
> [Science museum]
>>> Alas they've added some of those 'interactive' experiments. While a good
>>> idea in theory, I'm not sure they should be combined with collections of
>>> historical scientific instruments, etc. The groups of people interested
>>> in the two displays would have virtually no intersection IMHO.
>> Hmm. The Deutsches Museum is a 'hands-on'/'interactive') museum
>> since the first years, and the combination of historic displays
>> and learning works fine - at least for me.
> I've got no problem with working exhibits, and hands-on learning. But the
> science museum already has far more stuff than it can display, so when
> a lot of the space has recently been taken over with these interactive
> experiments that have little to do with the historical stuff, it's a
> pity.
Thats maybe a difference, because the Deutsches Museum is
supposed to be a learning thing - tell science and technic
One special thing is that there are displays made in the
30s, 50s or 60s which are historical themself. I had some
fights in the past where these displays should be removed
and replaced by something 'modern'.
> While I am sure that such things are educationally very valuable, if I
> want to see which materials conduct electricity, I'll do it at home :-).
> I want to see things that, in general, I don't have at home, and am not
> likely to have at home.
No. It's exactly about the 'simple' displays to tell the basic
story. I don't need a 'multi media experiance' on computers,
when nobody tells the story of a flip-flop or any dimple and/or/not
logic (Without these _simple_ displays at the Deutsches Museum
I never had understood the two-stroke engine or the exact system
of the 'controls' of an steam engine in locomotives).
Example: in the computer hall they have a display showing
a digital counter build of acryl boxes, driven by _water_
(As I said before - the computer display is marvelous until
Zuse engine - thereafter just junk). Thats the kind I'm
talking about - showing the basics.
> Last time I was there, they had some kind of virtual reality system (a
> game of some kind, I think). I didn't investigate further, as it cost
> more money to see it. Note that this wasn't an exhibition on how virtual
> reality machines work, or anything like that. And it was using the space
> that had once held a GWR 'Castle' locomotive and a Class 55 Deltic.
Sad, but if I had to decide between just displaying a clasic
engine or a hans on display, I favour the later - don't get
me wrong, I'm not talking about fun rides for entertainment.
The Deutsches Museum also owns an impressiv collection of
railway vehicle, and some real unique pices, but they are
only to show significant stages of technology, not just
historic - Thats reserved for railway mueseums (btw: you
have in GB a museum still without any comperable counterpart
in Germany - the Tramway Museum in Chrich!).
>>> Oh, back the heads off the drum and replace it with a set of RAMs and
>>> counters :-). Keep the drum turning, and demonstrate the machine with
>>> more modern memory (at least for day-to-day operation).
>> Exactly my idea of a display ...
> Right... Well, even better, teach people how to start and stop the drum
> and keep the machine original, but I guess that wouldn't be practical.
Nice - but dream - the drum was alredy not very reliable
when it was new. It would be a huge success if it could
run only once.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Hi,
The XPS100 and XPS120 are made by Bull S.A. (French computer maker,
the Unix systems where actually made in Pregnana, Italy),
the XPS100 used to be a single processor machine with an 68010 (or
68020) and the XPS120 used to be a dual cpu machine (that is, as far
as I can remember it)
When I worked with them they had Unix System 5 rel. 0, but maybe also
release 1 or 2 has been made available at a later stage.
Basically after you have connected all the disks and so on it should
work, the console should generate some diagnostic messages and other
stuff, and you should then get the login prompt.
Ed
--
The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus!
wanderer(a)bos.nl | Europarlementariers:
http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor
Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici.
'96 GSXR 1100R |
See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of
Gates!
>> Yesterday I opened my Apple //c to take a picture, and I
>> found something strange: On the OS _EP_ROM is a batch
>> to close the window, handmade with the text "NOV 30, 83"
>> written on it. I always thought that the //c was released
>> in april '84 and first in the US - but this is an ordinary
>> (at least I think) german //c. There is no information
>> sticker on the case, so no serial number or exact modell
>> information is available (I forgot to check the revision
>> number on the mainboard). The character generator is also
>> 'only' an EPROM, but the sticker on the window is premade
>> (paper) with a copyright notice (APPLE 83).
> Is the texture of the case smooth or rough? Does it have the Apple logo
> and the //c name imprinted on the top of the case towards the back end?
> If you still have it open, look under the power supply (it takes some
> force to pull the P/S out of its socket). What does it say underneath?
Camera and Pictures are at home.
I'll have a look (yes its still open, since I use
this to giv him a complete cleaning).
More information tomorrow.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
> If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape
II's will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will.
A TK50 (CompacTape I, 95MB) can be read in any TK drive up to a TK86
(CompacTape III, 6GB). A TK70 (CompacTape II, 295MB) is also upward but
not downward compatible. However, if you fully erase a TK70 with a
degausser it will work in a TK50 drive, but from then on it looks like a
TK50 tape in a TK70 drive too.
Re uVAX 2000 tape drives, a TK50-F is the original drive but the SCSI
controller in the tape needs an upgrade if you use it with any other
SCSI controller, like a MicroVax 3100. The TK50-G model had the updated
ROMs, so given a choice look for the G model instead.
Jack Peacock
Yesterday I opened my Apple //c to take a picture, and I
found something strange: On the OS _EP_ROM is a batch
to close the window, handmade with the text "NOV 30, 83"
written on it. I always thought that the //c was released
in april '84 and first in the US - but this is an ordinary
(at least I think) german //c. There is no information
sticker on the case, so no serial number or exact modell
information is available (I forgot to check the revision
number on the mainboard). The character generator is also
'only' an EPROM, but the sticker on the window is premade
(paper) with a copyright notice (APPLE 83).
So, is this maybe some kind of early pre production
series for tests in Germany ?
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Hi Lawrence:
Thanks for your info, I will search it up from WWW.... :)
BTW, may I use any Mac emulator, and get the HD-COPY from Apple site and
run it to extract the Mac disc image from an IBM directly?
Yours,
Ken Yaksa
> There are several programs for transferring disks from a PC to Mac .
> Macindos , Macsee , and IMHO the best is Macdisk .
> This is a description:
> macdisk.exe (249K)
> Mac Disk is a PC utility to read, write, and
> format Macintosh HD floppy disks. Bundled
> with an Ascii converter and a utility to edit the
> internal table. Contains a demo version under
> Windows and a shareware version. From Pierre
> Duhem. See ReadMe for additional information.
>
> macsq.exe (318K)
> Mac SQ is a PC utility to read, write and
> format Macintosh SyQuest cartridges on a PC.
> Contains a demo version under Windows and a
> shareware version under DOS.
>
> The macsq overcomes the problem of the non-MFM
> 800 and 400 k flopies if you have access to a Syquest
> removeable.
>
> I can't find the URL for this but a search should easily turn it up.
> Of course if you have a working Mac you can down load to a PC
> The trick is not to uncompress on the PC but simply transfer the
> uncompressed files and then uncompress them with Shrinkit .
> The same technique works with the Atari ST
>
> ciao larry
>
> lwalker(a)interlog.com
> I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several
> hundred floppies.
>
> Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable.
Readable? By what machine? Are they single or double sided and what
format?
(My machines with 8inch: IBM System/23, FTS Series 88 (FTS is CP/M86).
I also intend one day to get a PDP running, and connect an RX02 to it.)
> Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be.
>
> Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can
> be packed in plastic disk boxes.
As usual, shipping to the UK is likely to be expensive. I am reluctant
to buy secondhand blank disks, although given the quality of most new
disks nowadays, secondhand ones are unlikely to be any worse...
> If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage.
I don't think I'll buy disks unless they have something really nice on
them, but:
If you do get to the point of throwing disks away, please keep the paper
envelopes, and I will pay for shipping of these. I am very short (some
disks three to an envelope at present) because I also store photographs
in them (I get 8 inch square prints back from the developer).
Philip.
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<From: "Ken Yaksa" <yaksaken(a)hkstar.com>
<To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washing
<Subject: Re: available 8" disks
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<May I have few blank disks from you too...?? I live in Hong Kong, and I
<discover that I never can find 8" disks in my location! :( If so, I woul
<pay the shipping... :)
<
<Yours,
<Ken Yaksa
OK, here's the scoop.
1) I don't want to ship if I don't have to.
2) I'd really rather not ship international
No one is interrested in paying me to package them to ship. Even with
free boxes and wadded up newpaper as padding it's still my time and tape.
3) the games disks... that was an unfortunate inclusion and the number
of disks that represents is small compared to the SIGM and CPMUG portion
which is some 300 or so. The rest are belived blank, or what have you
on them.
3a) the cpmug and SIGM disks are all on the WCcdrom and simtel, I feel
no guilt dumping them as it's not like they are anywhere near the last on
earth. They are more useful as media of if you have a 8" cpm system
convenient.
4) they are all CP/M sssd though some may be ssdd.
5) local pickup prefered.
Allison
