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101090 discussions

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >>> be backed up. >> Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem > On paper tape, of course. It's reliable (I've never found a tape that > can't be read), human-readable, and the automatic readers are simple > enough to be repairable... Jep. Good choice - I still have some paper tabes from the mid 70s in fine condition - but I also know (remembering the past) how fast they break... >> So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed >> lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >> PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >> 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > You can pack a lot of ROM dumps on a 1600bpi magtape.... Shure, but 1600 BpI is the first density not readable to humans. Again insecure. >> Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >> EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS > Never!. I'd not trust an EPROM to last longer than 10 years. Nor any > other chip for that matter. Sure, a lot of them will, but some won't. And > if it's the last copy in the world, you've got problems. EPROMS are a real lot more reliable than any other media. >> (real one not EPROMS without window) should live even > All chips fail. Bond-outs break, the chip itself fails, etc. And some > fusible link devices suffer from a problem where the fuses grow back. > I've never seen it myself, but it happens (I've read books on it). And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. >> longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - >> it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or >> 2708 not already needed for an old computer. > Wait a second. Nobody is suggesting that (a) you don't keep the EPROM > you've backed up - or indeed that you don't keep using it, or (b) that > you don't stock up on components now. But in 20 years time, it'll be a > lot easier to repair a <whatever> given a ROM dump - even if you have to > kludge in the latest multi-megabit EPROM - than without it. I'm not interested in the backup, or the content - I just want to have the particular computer, depending on the content of the ROM, running. So the backup is just a tool, but it has to be reliable for long time to reduce backup strategie time. I found EPROMS running well for 20 years in environments where a disk wont survive 1 day. And of course yes, I already have a small component stock including some 'new' EPROMS from 256 Bytes to 64K (2KBit ... 512KBit). Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> But there's no way I can afford a Lisa at the current collector's prices. >>> So, alas, there's a gap in the collection :-( >> So, would you trade an Imsai 8080 for a Lisa 2? > If I had an Imsai, then yes, I would. The Lisa is a much more interesting > machine to me... :) Btw: I'm still looking for any genuine Xerox Star. I own two SIEMENS EMS 5800 class systems (5810 and 5822) - OEM Stars, but I like to add a 'real' one to them. And for your question - The Lisa is, compared to the Star like Windows 3.0 compared to a Macintosh. A cheap surogat. The differences arn't that big at first sight, but when working the wohle day just these 4 kesy on the left side are like switching from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Mercedes T. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

Attache Altair??

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have made contact with an individual who has <what he describes as an Altair 8800 which is <in an "Attache" case made by Icom in 1976. Would <appreciate any information about this "Attache". <Is it a very desirable thing. Were very many produced, etc? < It has MITS <boards (CPU, IO, disk controller) and power suppy. <He wants to trade it to me for an Imsai 8800. <Would that be a good trade on my part? Bewary as to some people all small airplanes are Piper Cubs! It may not be MITS at all or only some. Calling it an ALTAIR means specifically one of four possible boxes all desktop sized (Altair 8800, the altair 8800B, the 8800B front pannel less version or the Altair680). Interesting. MITS never made a portable or toteable. At first I'd suspected it was an Ontrona Attache. However it's either home brew or someone used mits board and a commercial case. Is the disk controller a two board set (altair) or something else. I ask as the MITS boards were for 8" hard sector only and the likely board used would the single board Icom minifloppy (5.25") controller. Those 8" drives are huge! Find, yes it is. If anything for the altair boards. Good trade for IMSAI 8080, to my feelings no if you want to run it, Yes if you want to try and make money off it. I have an Altair and unless the boards are the 8800B series it's was cranky at best. The IMSAI has a good front pannel as well, important for the older software and systems. Allison

28 years, 2 months

IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

> Preserving data is not like preserving a paining, we dont care about the > image or the form as we can change it as needed. No, it's just the other way, if a painting is aging (beside real damage) nobody cares. The 'experts' even praise the quality - the best example is the Sistine Capel - Everybody told us that this dark thing was the intention, but now, after a closer look it reveals tat anything we had seen was aged 'till destruction thru smoke et.al. - after restauration this masterpeace is now rainbow coloured like a NYC garfity. Its the other way - we care about the content, an art galery doesn't care. They just want to have the thing. Especialy since the 'working' condition of an art thing isn't as easy to determinate as of an computer. > Photographic film has shown remarkable life, it's a possible media for > many decades. Only if you dont compare with an unaged copy (almost impossible :) But you could do a test - take a picture digitalize it and them wait 20 years (and keep your digital copy always readabe (I don't think I'll have to mention to preserve the equipment)). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe >similar things in one space, without any description or system. The system appeals to kids who enjoy running around and pushing buttons. The fact that 'the big dig' was next to ship models were next to trains and cars were next to stuff about DNA does make me wonder... >The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without >proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter >if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special Has anyone been to the Boston Museum of Natural History? Now _that_ is well organised and old fashioned. Endless rooms of glass cases with everything imaginable (The New York one is considerably less informative). >shows (like the 'Jurasic Park' exhibition or 'Boston Underground') >are made with a huge effort but only a little information to tell. >Maybe they are just no longer interestet in a general purpose (*G*) >museum and change to a theme park including merchandise ... Well, it DOES have to make money...but I agree that there is not that much info. e.g. there are many models of liquid fuel rockets, with light-up modules, and so forth, but nowhere is an explanation of how they work. >Gruss >H. > >Btw: They have (had ?) a nice hands on display about mechanics > (ropes and levers), made completely from wood (Again just > standing senseles without any proper guide ). Didn't see those, don't know. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

IMSAI 8080

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What about phonographs? Do they last? (gives a new meaning to PROMs...) >And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 2 months

IMSAI 8080

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Preserving data is not like preserving a paining, we dont care about the image or the form as we can change it as needed. Magnetic media, even CDrom are viable as they do have a known life that is adaquately long to permit copying to newer media every 10-15 years time. The only other choices that have a better life span do so only if they are carefully handled or more correctly not handled. FYI: punched paper tape; MYLAR is the current long time winner... even then it ages. Eproms, I'd trust the newer devices longer than say the 1702 or 2708 but the industry feels 20 years is about it. Assuming the device doesn't fail from say lead bond failure, metalization cracking, Oxide flaws, electromigration or other failure mechanisms common to chips. I must point out that those failure are nearly as likely as forgetting by 20 years. Since many of those failure modes exist in all ICs even if the eprom is good it's possible everything around could have failed. Photographic film has shown remarkable life, it's a possible media for many decades. Allison

28 years, 2 months

Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

> Incidentally, I spent a lot of time today in the Boston Science Museum. > They have some old models, even a functional steam engine, but also a > lot of hands on junk. Although kids do enjoy touching things and often > regard untouchable museums as boring, there is the issue of the > usefullness of the things, and even the issue of what knowledge we are > propagating to the children. Many of the exhibits were broken. The > robots exhibit had an arm shooting hoops. The worst it got was with the > model of the NASA Dante II robot. It was hands-on, all right: press the > up button to move a leg up, and the down button to move it down. Just > one leg. BTW, they had an early Amiga in one kiosk. At any rate, I was > kinda bored with so much floor space taken up by junk. The Boston Science Museum is an impressiv thing - or should be. I been there twice. Theoretical they could be a in competition with the Deutsches Museum, but in fact a lot displays look more like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe similar things in one space, without any description or system. The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special shows (like the 'Jurasic Park' exhibition or 'Boston Underground') are made with a huge effort but only a little information to tell. Maybe they are just no longer interestet in a general purpose (*G*) museum and change to a theme park including merchandise ... Gruss H. Btw: They have (had ?) a nice hands on display about mechanics (ropes and levers), made completely from wood (Again just standing senseles without any proper guide ). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>> And for your question - The Lisa is, compared to the Star >> like Windows 3.0 compared to a Macintosh. A cheap surogat. > I thought it would be, but I'd still like one. I'm a serious PERQ-fanatic > - PERQs were the first commerically sold workstations, based on the work > done at PARC, and are not a cheap _anything_. And I've got the Daybreak > and (of course) a Macintosh. So I'd like the missing machine in the line, > but not at the current price. I still like to trade one of my lisas :) >> The differences arn't that big at first sight, but when >> working the wohle day just these 4 kesy on the left side >> are like switching from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Mercedes T. > The hardware is, I think, very different. I would guess the Star was like > a PERQ internally (the Daybreak has a lot of similarities to the PERQ 1). I'm not talking about the Hardware - 'only' about th UI. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

28 years, 2 months

principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

Okay, since I was the person who started this firestorm of controversy, this is the last I will say about this issue. Let me begin by saying that I did not purchase this IMSAI when I had the opportunity for three reasons: 1. I didn't have $300 2. The machine, though historic, did nothing for me (I'll Explain) 3. I don't (in general) collect Intel. Not being into S-100 (I'm an SS-50 person, myself), the machine had little appeal to me. But I knew that there would be at least a few of you out there on this list who would be interested. So I posted it here, so some of our 'gang' could take a swing at it. The asking price _seemed_ fair, although I personally felt it was a tad high (more than _I_ would pay, anyway). What I figured would happen, some one would call, offer the guy $300, and that would be it. I had _no_ idea that this guy was gonna jack up the price into the stratusphere ($1,000 ? c'mon guys! Where's the enjoyment factor here?) Anyways, this chain of events was definitely _not_ my intention. Of course, the adage: "The road to Hell is paved grandest of good intentions" certainly applies here. I offer my most sincerest apologies for this debacle. Yes, I know, the deed is done, and it looks like a few of you out there have been hurt by this. I'm sorry. Had I known this was gonna happen, I'd a sent the guy to ebay. Further, I don't think I will be offering any more material that may be considered 'Investment Grade' (should I encounter any) in the future, and I would encourage others to do likewise. Private mail is better. If anyone has any gripes/comments, please address them directly to me: jeff.kaneko(a)ifrsys.com And let's give the mailing list back to our hobby, where it belongs. Thank you for your attention . . .. Jeff Kaneko +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > At 02:51 AM 6/20/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> For Sale: > >> > >> IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer > >[...] > >> Asking price: $300 > > > >After a round of email bidding, the seller sez: > >> IT SOLD FOR $1000. THAMKS FOR THE RESPONSE. > > > >Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff > >directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online > >auction. The last IMSAI that sold on eBay went for around $650, I think. > > > >FWIW, > >Doug (still IMSAI-less) > > Well... while it may not improve the price, it may improve the audience... > B^} > > While trying to NOT reignite another flame war (which I probably contribute > to), the qualifier on this idea might be that when you post something, post > it with an acceptable price. IMHO that should not be a difficult > proposition for someone who is looking for a good home for a piece of > equipment. If you are just going to relocate an auction, then you are > probably only in it for the money! (boy, am I gonna get yelled at for THAT > one) > > What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more > often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in > the last month) > > Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with > a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I > find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide > shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has > received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as > an opportunity for further response. > > Now, maybe it is just me... But from my view when responded with a counter > to my offer, we were in the midst of transacting a deal and I should have > 'right of first refusal' until the point that either we make the deal or I > decide I don't want it. > > I don't appreciate multi-thread dealing going on without being informed. > And it was not like there were any extended delays between these messages. > The entire series of exchanges occurred over less than 24 hours. Very > similar for the second occurrance I mentioned above... > > BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!) > > -jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...) > > --- > jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > > >

28 years, 2 months

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