< allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
< > The F8 (NOT the 3870) had bits and piices of the CPU scattered between
< > minimum of two chips.
<
< No, it didn't. The entire F8 CPU was on a single chip. If you added a
< chip that contained only ROM and I/O, you had a functional system.
Not quite. the F8 cpu (3850) was an incomplete system without the
385x (3851,6,7 PSU). It was very difficult to simulate the PSU in ttl
as well. The two ran in lock step just like the parts of the F14 CADC
or the LSI-11 with it's MICROMS. The 3870 was the single chip version
of the F8. In some respect the F8 was like many early parts in that the
CORE CPU was there but glue was needed to make it all work.
(8080/8224/8228 for example).
I know this from doing comparative design-ins while at NEC during the
late 70s.
Allison
< We haven't established a precise definition for microprocessor, but wha
< you seem to be talking about is a microcontroller, which is a complete
< system on a chip (i.e., CPU, memory, and I/O).
Ah, your catching on.
CPU: central processing unit... says nothing about memory or IO.
The CPU is an 8080.
Microprocessor: Actually is a systems level concept and is generally
refers to the whole box. The Altair8800 Microcomputer.
Microcontroller: see above! The IMSAI IMP-48 microcontroller uses the
Intel 8035 as its core.
The F8 (NOT the 3870) had bits and piices of the CPU scattered between a
minimum of two chips.
The 1800/1801 did the same as it was too much for one piece of silicon
at the time of design.
< AFAIK, the first true microcontroller (CPU, memory, and I/O on one monol
< IC) was the Intel 8048.
BZZT! TI TMS1000 and NEC uCOM4 both predate it.
So the F14 CADC is a microcomputer. The LSI-11 is a microcomputer.
The Z80 is a CPU as is the 80586.
Allison
Today at a local flea market, I picked up a PRO (Made in Taiwan) Soldering
Iron Controller. It has a three-prong power outlet and a heavy duty
potentiometer for controlling the voltage level of the outlet.
The labeling indicates "MAX. 800 WATTS-120 V.A.C." My math tells me that
this unit can handle a maximum of 6 amps. Would this be safe to use as a
variac on, say, a sparsely loaded IMSAI?
It was only a buck.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
I think the number does differ, because
a)There is no practical purpose for building a CPU, just curiosity
b)Parts like 2901s are not as available
c)Kids are rarely going into homebrewing these days
d)The dilution is making it hard to get information
I'm curious why the HPCC would be interested in homebrew? Or is HPCC
a sort of umbrella name for a computer club? At my school, the most
calculator-loving person spends his time making a multitasking GUI OS
for a TI-92, to look like Win95. I guess interests have changed.
>Sometimes I think (hope???) that homebrewing is still very much alive,
>it's just diluted by all the PC users out there. I suspect that years
>ago, the total number of people who built CPUs from scratch is not that
>different from now.
>
>On the other hand, I have presented a number of homebrew projects at
the
>HPCC (UK HP calculator user club) meetings and had next to 0 interest.
So
>perhaps I am one of the few remaining.
>
>-tony
>
>
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Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote:
>> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
>> represented on this list.
> OK, some here might have Epson HC-20s. (Epson repainted the grey case
> beige and removed the Katakana from the keyboard and ROMs to make the
> HX-20 a few years later)
Well beside homebrews, I could throw in the Microset 8080
(as seen on the VCF 2.0), a Eurocom I or maybe the Pascal
Microengine, to name a US build computer.
But reflecting the huge amount of 'forgotten' computers,
maufacturers and models (not to mention all these zillions
of 'different' Japaneese MSX systems), there might be some
in everyones collection thats unique within the list.
Gruss
H.
P.S.: are there still some Superbrains out there ?
I need docu and system disks, because the disks are
unreadable since the 'friendly' visit 4 weeks ago.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
I second your opinion. Well stated Sam.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 10/6/98 9:23 AM
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
> Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you
> can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do
> anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there
> were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a
> Universe, nobody cares.
I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of
work. In fact, I think people do care. I'm not so quick to sweep
historical facts underneath the carpet simply as a matter of convenience.
I'd rather know the complete and true story, and not just the easiest one
to remember.
Furthermore, you are are discounting the AMI microprocessors of the
early 70s, which Holt went on to design after the F14 CADC, and the
influence those chips may have had on later designs.
In fact, you are choosing to go along with the popular history written
years ago by a biased reporter that is perpetuated by lazy historians who
simply regurgitate the information they read in the last book rather than
doing real research and finding out there was more to the story, and that
there is history before the popular history. The picture is bigger than
the canvas it was painted on. I want to know what was beyond the frame.
I'm surprised you have this attitude when on the one hand you'd like to
see the HP9830 recognized as the first personal computer, rather than the
Altair 8800. By your own reasoning, the HP9830 wasn't the big bang, so
who cares?
Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
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From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia
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A BBC series entitled 'Connections,' hosted (I believe) by James Burke
was fascinating as it culled a wide range of seemingly disparate and
unrelated inventions and discoveries which led to some profound
changes in technological progress. It is this 'trivia' that I find
interesting especially when an idea laid dormant for years is realized
by the advancement of technology.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 10/6/98 11:31 AM
>> Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you
>> can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do
>> anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there
>> were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a
>> Universe, nobody cares.
> I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of
> work.
I always belives it's a kind of anglo american attitude
toward non US (and GB) archievments around the world, but
I'm glad to see that it's even comon within.
SCNR
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
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From: "Hans Franke" <franke(a)sbs.de>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Corrections to trivia
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> 6. Signetics 2650 based SBC
That's one I would also like to get my hands on, since my
first computer (homebrew) was using one (supid me, I just
throw it away 20 years ago in favour for a KIM). It's rare
to finde s.o. today, remembering tis odd but neat pice of
silicon.
Allison, do you still have docs and/or computers/boards ?
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
> Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd make a list of the Top 10 Holy Grails
> of classic microcomputer computer collecting. This is the "Rembrandt in the
> Attic" sort of stuff. These are roughly in my opinionated order, but
> somewhat randomly ordered:
> 1. The Altair prototype that was to be the cover photo for Popular
> Electronics but was lost in shipment
> 2. Xerox Alto
> 3. Mark 8
> 4. Scelbi 8H
> 5. Kenbak-1
> 6. Micral 8008
> 7. Apple I
> 8. An unassembled Altair 8800 Kit
> 9. Busicom Japan Intel 4004-based Calculator
> 10. IBM 5100
Hmm Breaking down to just 10 is hard, but when
it comes to the 'most desirable' ones, I would
personaly add at #1 the wooden PET prototype.
And eventualy the ATARI-ST prototype boards.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
>> Babbage was not the first to come up with the idea of a computer, but you
>> can trace the development of modern computers back to him. You can't do
>> anything like that with Holt's chip -- it had no influence. Maybe there
>> were other Big Bangs before The Big Bang, but if they didn't create a
>> Universe, nobody cares.
> I think this attitude in general carelessly disregards an amazing body of
> work.
I always belives it's a kind of anglo american attitude
toward non US (and GB) archievments around the world, but
I'm glad to see that it's even comon within.
SCNR
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
