Do you know that you ca structure you BASIC code also? I haven't used a GOTO
statement in BASIC since I learned C.
>> The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is
that
>> it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the
>> inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.)
>
>Actually, that too is a learning experience. You only build one spaghetti
>program that you'd like to maintain before you learn the error of your
ways.
>
>--
>Jim Strickland
>jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
At 02:34 PM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM
>capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including
>Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature.
Uh-oh, here goes Uncle Roger again...
There are a lot of *really* good educational programs out there nowadays.
Davidson, Learning Company, Br0derbund are some good names. They can
really help kids get ahead. My niece is already reading at 4yo thanks to
Interactive Reading Journey. (Not a record by any stretch, but no one is
really pushing her.)
I could go on for hours, but I won't...
>There should also be WWW access, preferably with at least minimal
>graphics capability.
The younger the kid, the more they need graphics capability. Teenagers
don't really need it, no matter how much they beg for it (they just want to
visit whitehouse.com).
>In the PC world, that would call for 386SX with VGA video, and DOS 3.10
Or a Mac IIci, both of which will require access to older software.
Pentium or PowerPC is required for much of the good stuff you see at places
like ChumpUSA.
Used parts can be put together into a low-end/slow pentium for probably a
lot less than $500, but that's still more than $10 + shipping. And for a
dedicated task like learning a bit of programming, playing with some
graphics, and a few games, a C64/Atari 800/Apple II would be fine.
Also, BASIC, as maligned as it is, is useful for learning; I applied my
BASIC experience to make learning PERL a snap. (And BASIC is very useful
in its own right.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 07:01 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>In fact, as I understand, all that FOR...NEXT and so on are are low-level
>implementations of common usages of GOTO.
High-level -- just as all BASIC/COBOL/C/Etc commands are high-level
representations of many more assembly language commands.
For-next:
Start-Value = 1
End-Value = 99
Increment = 1
Counter = Start-Value
:Start-For
If Counter > End-Value Then
Goto End-For
end-if
do stuff
Counter = Counter + Increment
Goto Start-For
:End-For
In fact there could be times when you would want to do this this way
instead of using a for-next -- as in if you want you increment to change
each time, or if you want to repeat a single iteration until some other
condition is met.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 05:16 PM 1/13/99 -0600, you wrote:
>And parents who read, read, read to their kids from the early days.
>I'm talking day 1, if not in the womb. (almost 8^) We encourage
>everyone we know to do this. We have friends who never got much
Can't agree more -- and yes, even in the womb. Two things I've heard
about: play music through headphones, with the headphones against the
mother's stomach (softly, and classical music, mozart is best) and shine a
flashlight against the mother's stomach and move it around. The first
(supposedly) develops logical thinking ability as well as hearing, the
second eyesight and coordination.
Dunno if it works, but Cassie's folks did the first and she is definitely
musically inclined. (Of course that may be genetic anyway.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 09:13 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Yup... and you can't put margin notes in a CDROM.
Well, with well-written software, you should be able to include linked
notes (virtual post-its) on the hard drive... Even so, I would much rather
carry a laptop with CD and an unlinked file of notes than a shelf full of
paperware.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
I have to side with those who suggest a simple computer for a child with
enough interest to learn assembly. c64, apple2, and so forth would be my
suggestions. MacOS and Windows both are designed to keep you away from the
nitty gritty inside the computer. My understanding is MacOS won't let you
near it at all, and while windows *will* it's grudgingly and at your own peril.
(and there's so much crap in memory that you can munge it's unlikely a novice
will survive.) And as someone pointed out, there's so much to distract from
learning to program with a more modern machine...
By contrast, to do any kind of graphics or sound with a c64, you are interacting
with it on a pretty low level - sprites are an 8 byte by 1 byte (if memory
serves) chunk of memory and to turn a given pixel on, you poked a byte with
that pixel on.
A modern computer is designed to be an appliance, like a toaster, and requires
no more understanding than "put bread in slot, press lever". If the child has
shown an interest about what's inside, giving her a wintel or macos machine
is a disservice. I'd have to even say giving her a linux box to do assembly on
is probably too much. I don't grasp assembly well enough to be sure, but I'd
imagine a multitasking system complicates it somewhat.
On a related topic, does anyone else feel sorry for the kid in the microsoft
commercials who considers himself a computer expert because he has "mastered
many of Microsoft's applications." Heh. In the early 64 years you were
considered a wuss if you *bought* applications instead of writing your own.
Could it be a fiendish plot to reduce competition by making sure no-one but
Microsoft has the skills to program in their environment? :) (just kidding)
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 meo(a)netads.com wrote:
> But you can still fake it. A few, simple standards gone a long way.
In fact, as I understand, all that FOR...NEXT and so on are are low-level
implementations of common usages of GOTO.
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor(a)bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor
At 06:15 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> This'll probably offend many.
>paintbrush programs for four years before graduating to doom.
Ooh, like doom is so great for kids! 8^)
Actually, if you wait until a kid is 8 or so before introducing them to
computers, you've wasted a lot of their time. 18 months is the recommended
earliest a kid should start with a computer, but if you want to sit them on
your lap while you work before that, I think it's okay.
At 18months, windows versus mac doesn't really matter much; it's the
application software that's important. If you can get Reader
Rabbit/Playroom/Jumpstart for Unix (or CP/M or PDP-8) then go for it.
But to say that a kid should not be introduced to computers until they can
read enough to use unix or can handle a soldering iron is to do a major
disservice to the kid.
For an 8 year old (the original question) who has probably already learned
to read/write/type, and understands running a program, and has used other
computers, a C-64 is a fine machine to muck around with, spill soda on,
play with BASIC on. (Though I'd vote for Atari myself. 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>>But Linux is just fine as a newbie OS for a kid.
>
> At what level are you talking? I have not seen any sofware for kids (like
> the knowledge adventure or humongous entertainment series) that would run
on
> Linux. It is hard to get a kid used to play with windows for 6 years and
> tell him that it is crap and the one where you have to type long commands
is
> a lot better.
At what level? At a "newbie" level, apparently, i.e. not one who has been
using Lusedoze for six years. If I ever marry and have kids, I hope they
won't be too disappointed that I don't allow MS Windows or Intel 80986 (or
whatever) machines in the house :-)
My folks were never into computers or electronics or anything of that
nature. But once the school got a PET (1979), and parents found out that I
spent every break time in the school computer room, regardless of whether I
could book time on the machine, they got me one for my next birthday. (Yes
I still have it).
Some of their house rules I may well implement if I raise a family, though.
Like no TV during the summer holiday. (I'd prefer no TV at all, but one
must compromise occasionally)
Philip.
>> Apparently you have not tried Visual Basic...
>
>How is that as easy as ROM BASIC? You turn the computer, and Visual Basic
>pops up immediately? I've yet to see such a computer (and if I do, I'll
>bash it to pieces with an axe, but that's another story)!.
Yes you can make your computer boot and load Visual Basic right away (you
just have to wait a little longer:) What I meant by mentioning VB is that
you can build a familiar interface very quickly and then add the code
incrementally as you move along. VB takes care of all the extra stuff then
you click on the play button and tada...(as a side note I do not like VB I
just have to use it once in a while)
>
>We're talking about teaching _about_ computers, not teaching _with_
>computers. Granted, Alvin and the Chipmunks software won't run on Linux
>(usually), and M$ Actimates won't work with it either...(echo "Hello,
>World!" > /dev/barney, anyone?) but those things won't help someone who
>wants to learn how a computer works.
>
Before you can really learn about computers you have to have an interest in
it and so far I have not seen anything that could possibly interrest a kid
that runs on Linux. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that MSBlows is THE
solution but it is hard to make it simpler for a non computer litterate
(actually for a kid who can't read it is strongly recommended to have a GUI
but that's another chapter)
If the kid starts asking questions on the under side of the machine then it
is a good idea to switch to a machine that encourages the user to scratch
under the surface.
Francois
