test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev

by guykd＠optusnet.com.au

At 10:52 PM 25/11/2018 -0700, you wrote: >> Then adds a plain ASCII space 0x20 just to be sure. > >I don't think it's adding a plain ASCII space 0x20 just to be sure. >Looking at the source of the message, I see =C2=A0, which is the UTF-8 >representation followed by the space. My MUA that understands UTF-8 >shows that "=C2=A0 " translates to " ". Further, "=C2=A0 =C2=A0" >translates to " ". I was speaking poetically. Perhaps "the mail software he uses was written by morons" is clearer. >Some of the reading that I did indicates that many things, HTML >included, use white space compaction (by default), which means that >multiple white space characters are reduced to a single white space >character. Oh yes, tell me about the html 'there is no such thing as hard formatting and you can't have any even when you want it' concept. Thank you Tim Berners Lee. http://everist.org/NobLog/20130904_Retarded_ideas_in_comp_sci.htm http://everist.org/NobLog/20140427_p-term_is_retarded.htm > So, when Ed wants multiple white spaces, his MUA has to do >something to state that two consecutive spaces can't be compacted. >Hence the non-breaking space. Except that 'non-breaking space' is mostly about inhibiting line wrap at that word gap. But anyway, there's little point trying to psychoanalyze the writers of that software. Probably involved pointy-headed bosses. >As stated in another reply, I don't think ASCII was ever trying to be >the Babel fish. (Thank you Douglas Adams.) Of course not. It was for American English only. This is one of the major points of failure in the history of information processing. >> Takeaway: Ed, one space is enough. I don't know how you got the idea >> people might miss seeing a single space, and so you need to type two or >> more. > >I wondered if it wasn't a typo or keyboard sensitivity issue. I >remember I had to really slow down the double click speed for my grandpa >(R.I.P.) so that he could use the mouse. Maybe some users actuate keys >slowly enough that the computer thinks that it's repeated keys. ??\_(???)_/?? Well now he's flaunting it in his latest posts. Never mind. :) >> And since plain ASCII is hard-formatted, extra spaces are NOT ignored >> and make for wider spacing between words. > >It seems as if you made an assumption. Just because the underlying >character set is ASCII (per RFC 821 & 822, et al) does not mean that the >data that they are carrying is also ASCII. As is evident by the >Content-Type: header stating the character set of UTF-8. Containing extended Unicode character sets via UTF-8, doesn't make it a non-hard-formatted medium. In ASCII a space is a space, and multi-spaces DON'T collapse. White space collapse is a feature of html, and whether an email is html or not is determined by the sending utility. >Especially when textual white space compression does exactly that, >ignore extra white spaces. > >> Which looks very odd, even if your mail utility didn't try to >> do something 'special' with your unusual user input. As you see, this IS NOT HTML, since those extra spaces and your diagram below would have collapsed if it was html. Also saving it as text and opening in a plain text ed or hex editor absolutely reveals what it is. >I frequently use multiple spaces with ASCII diagrams. > >+------+ >| This | >| is | >| a | >| box | >+------+ >> Btw, I changed the subject line, because this is a wider topic. I've been >> meaning to start a conversation about the original evolution of ASCII, >> and various extensions. Related to a side project of mine. > >I'm curious to know more about your side project. Hmm... the problem is it's intended to be serious, but is still far from exposure-ready. So if I talk about it now, I risk having specific terms I've coined in the doco (including the project name) getting meme-jammed or trademarked by others. The plan is to release it all in one go, eventually. Definitely will be years before that happens, if ever. However, here's a cut-n-paste (in plain text) of a section of the Introduction (html with diags.) ---------- Almost always, a first attempt at some unfamiliar, complex task produces a less than optimal result. Only with the knowledge gained from actually doing a new thing, can one look back and see the mistakes made. It usually takes at least one more cycle of doing it over from scratch to produce something that is optimal for the needs of the situation. Sometimes, especially where deep and subtle conceptual innovations are involved, it takes many iterations. Human development of computing science (including information coding schemes) has been effectively a 'first time effort', since we kept on developing new stuff built on top of earlier work. We almost never went back to the roots and rebuilt everything, applying insights gained from the many mistakes made. In reviewing the evolution of information coding schemes since very early stages such as the Morse code, telegraph signal recording, typewriters, etc, through early computing systems, mass data storage and file systems, computer languages from Assembler through Compilers and Interpreters, and so on, several points can be identified at which early (inadequate) concepts became embedded then used as foundations for further developments. This made the original concepts seem like fundamentals, difficult to question (because they are underlying principles for much more complex later work), and virtually impossible to alter (due to the vast amounts of code dependent on them.) And yet, when viewed in hindsight many of the early concepts are seriously flawed. They effectively hobbled all later work dependent on them. Examples of these pivotal conceptual errors: Defects in the ASCII code table. This was a great improvement at the time, but fails to implement several utterly essential concepts. The lack of these concepts in the character coding scheme underlying virtually all information processing since the 1960s, was unfortunate. Just one (of many) bad consequences has been the proliferation of 'patch-up' text coding schemes such as proprietry document formats (MS Word for eg), postscript, pdf, html (and its even more nutty academia-gone-mad variants like XML), UTF-8, unicode and so on. [pic] This is a scan from the 'Recommended USA Standard Code for Information Interchange (USASCII) X3.4 - 1967' The Hex A-F on rows 10-15, added here. Hexadecimal notation was not commonly in use in the 1960s. Fig. ___ The original ASCII definition table. ASCII's limitations were so severe that even the text (ie ASCII) program code source files used by programmers to develop literally everything else in computing science, had major shortcomings and inconveniences. A few specific examples of ASCII's flaws: Missing concept of control vs data channel separation. And so we needed the "< >" syntax of html, etc. Inability to embed meta-data about the text in standard programatically accessible form. Absense of anything related to text adornments, ie italics, underline and bold. The most basic essentials of expressive text, completely ignored. Absense of any provision for creative typography. No awareness of fonts, type sizes, kerning, etc. Lack of logical 'new line', 'new paragraph' and 'new page' codes. Inadequate support of basic formatting elements such as tabular columns, text blocks, etc. Even the extremely fundamental and essential concept of 'tab columns' is impropperly implemented in ASCII, hence almost completely dysfunctional. No concept of general extensible-typed functional blocks within text, with the necessary opening and closing delimiters. Missing symmetry of quote characters. (A consequence of the absense of typed functional blocks.) No provision for code commenting. Hence the gaggle of comment delimiting styles in every coding language since. (Another consequence of the absense of typed functional blocks.) No awareness of programatic operations such as Inclusion, Variable substitution, Macros, Indirection, Introspection, Linking, Selection, etc. No facility for embedding of multi-byte character and binary code sequences. Missing an informational equivalent to the pure 'zero' symbol of number systems. A specific "There is no information here" symbol. (The NUL symbol has other meanings.) This lack has very profound implications. No facility to embed multiple data object types within text streams. No facility to correlate coded text elements to associated visual typographical elements within digital images, AV files, and other representational constructs. This has crippled efforts to digitize the cultural heritage of humankind. Non-configurable geometry of text flow, when representing the text in 2D planes. (Or 3D space for that matter.) Many of the 32 'control codes' (characters 0x00 to 0x1F) were allocated to hardware-specific uses that have since become obsolete and fallen into disuse. Leaving those codes as a wasted resource. ASCII defined only a 7-bit (128 codes) space, rather than the full 8-bit (256 codes) space available with byte sized architectures. This left the 'upper' 128 code page open to multiple chaotic, conflicting usage interpretations. For example the IBM PC code page symbol sets (multiple languages and graphics symbols, in pre-Unicode days) and the UTF-8 character bit-size extensions. Inability to create files which encapsulate the entirety of the visual appearance of the physical object or text which the file represents, without dependence on any external information. Even plain ASCII text files depend on the external definition of the character glyphs that the character codes represent. This can be a problem if files are intended to serve as long term historical records, potentially for geological timescales. This problem became much worse with the advent of the vast Unicode glyph set, and typset formats such as PDF. The PDF 'archival' format (in which all referenced fonts must be defined in the file) is a step in the right direction ? except that format standard is still proprietary and not available for free. ---------- Sorry to be a tease. Soon I'd like to have a discussion about the functional evolution of the various ASCII control codes, and how they are used (or disused) now. But am a bit too busy atm to give it adequate attention. Guy

7 years, 8 months

Working Ardent Titan on Youtube

by camiel.vanderhoeven＠vmssoftware.com

Now that my mousepad problem has been solved, and I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on it ? the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling application ? I decided to make a short video about this system in which I show the hardware and demonstrate some of the software: https://youtu.be/tMSnnt3iFz0 For those who haven?t heard of the system; the 1987 Ardent Titan (later renamed the Stardent 1500) was the first system that combined vector processors (as in a Cray-like architecture) and a graphics engine on the same backplane, and was the highest-performing graphics supercomputer for a short while. In the end, however, a longer than planned time to market and a forced merger with Stellar Computer caused the premature demise of the company. Cleve Moler, the inventor of MATLAB, worked at Ardent for three years, which is one of the reasons the Titan was the only computer ever to come with MATLAB as part of its bundled software. As I found out later ? after creating this video ? the version of MATLAB on the Titan was unique, because it included a ?render? command, which would plot a 3D surface using the Dor? graphics library. On other platforms, MATLAB could only render mesh plots. It wasn?t until 1992 that the mainstream version of MATLAB gained 3D surface rendering. Cleve wrote a number of articles on his blog about the Titan, one of which (https://blogs.mathworks.com/cleve/2013/12/09/the-ardent-titan-part-2/) describes how the Titan was used to create a video of a vibrating L-shaped membrane. With a little help from Cleve, I?m trying to recreate this video. A first effort ? which isn?t quite right yet ? can be seen here: https://youtu.be/-XeabDqRAG8 I hope some of you enjoy these! Camiel

7 years, 8 months

A New Batch from Sellam's Warehouse

by sellam.ismail＠gmail.com

It's been quite a hiatus, but I'm finally back with more! Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Advantech I.Q. Unlimited Computer Heath ZKB-2 keyboard EMP MM-102 Manual Mini Modem Lexicon LEX-12 Direct/Acoustically Coupled Modem Univsersal Data Systems 103 LP Modem (boxed) Univsersal Data Systems 103 LP Modem Morrow Designs Micro Decision HP 9111A Graphics Tablet SyQuest SQ3270S Cartirdge Disk Drive IBM Type 3363 Optical WORM Drive Macintosh SE FDHD Macintosh PowerBook Duo 2300c Apple M1242 Adjustable Keyboard Electomechanical keyboard Pertec Computer Corp. Univac Keypunch Keyboard HP Thermal Printer Paper pack HP 9816 HP 110 Portable w/9114A, 2225B and original HP carry case Anderson Jacobsen AJ 1233 Acoustically Coupled Modem Ven-Tel MD212 Plus Modem Mass Micro Systems Dual 45MB SCSI Removable Hard Drive Novation Cat acoustically coupled modem DEC DF02 Modem IBM 5140 PC Convertible Iomega The Bernoulli Box II PC2/50 Adapter Kit Zenith SuperSport Lap Top Computer Zenith SuperSport 286 Portable Computer Compaq Armada 1500 series laptop prototype Compaq LTE 5000 series laptop prototype The New Arrivals Niche is your guide to the goodies: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...72371&range=A1 <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hi…> Please contact me directly by e-mail if you want to inquire about something: sellam.ismail at gmail.com I apologize for my absence, I got tied up with life issues. To those who are waiting on me to send them something, I did not forget about you and will be sending you an update via e-mail. If I owe you something and you have not heard from me then by all means please contact me ASAP so I may rectify that. Thanks! Sellam

7 years, 8 months

Windows Accessibility Settings. RE: George Keremedjiev

by dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com

Just in case anyone isn't aware, and who gets duplicate characters input because they have some un-steadiness, and are using a Windows/10 PC (I think 7 as well) there are some options in in the "Ease of Access" settings "Filter Keys" settings => "bounce keys" that may help with your typing. These set a configurable delay that will ignore repeated keypresses for a very short period of time. The default is 0.5 of second but its configurable. You need to enable "Filter Keys" to see the "Bounce Keys" option. There is also a "slow keys" option. I hope this helps, and I am sorry if you knew this already and it doesn't .... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of ED SHARPE via > cctalk > Sent: 26 November 2018 18:30 > To: lproven at gmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: George Keremedjiev > > i use email i use and suggest you use a delete key. no loss no gain... > > > In a message dated 11/26/2018 11:16:07 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > lproven at gmail.com writes: > > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 17:54, ED SHARPE < couryhouse at aol.com> wrote: > > > > pay attention it us,probaby my hand which adds,Xtra spaces as stated > > before, please feel free to use the delete key > > Are you saying that you have motor control problems, such as Parkinson's > Disease or something? If so, I am really sorry -- but you have never said that > before, to my recollection. > > But you have never commented to anyone who has asked why you don't > switch to a proper local email client, which would fix the quoting and so on. > Do you not have access to your own computer, or something? If so I am sure > someone could give you a machine, if that would help... > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

7 years, 8 months

George Keremedjiev

by couryhouse＠aol.com

i use email i? use and suggest? ?you? ?use a delete key.? no? loss no? gain... In a message dated 11/26/2018 11:16:07 AM US Mountain Standard Time, lproven at gmail.com writes: ? On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 at 17:54, ED SHARPE < couryhouse at aol.com> wrote: > > pay attention it us,probaby my hand which adds,Xtra spaces as stated before, > please feel free to use the delete key Are you saying that you have motor control problems, such as Parkinson's Disease or something? If so, I am really sorry -- but you have never said that before, to my recollection. But you have never commented to anyone who has asked why you don't switch to a proper local email client, which would fix the quoting and so on. Do you not have access to your own computer, or something? If so I am sure someone could give you a machine, if that would help... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

7 years, 8 months

DEC bits wanted

by dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com

Folks, I have a VAXStation 4000/VLC which I would like to try to use as a workstation. I have a keyboard and mouse, but can't find any connector for the video port in the UK, and the only thing I can find in the USA is this:- https://www.ebay.com/itm/232664832774 which comes in at around $100 by the time I and import charges, VAT etc and its rather more than I wanted to pay. Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE <p.s. Another keyboard would be useful, the one I have is from a VT terminal. Would also like a TK70 to fill the hole in the VAX/4000 300.>

7 years, 8 months

Working Ardent Titan on Youtube

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Camiel Vanderhoeven > I have a fully working Ardent Titan with some interesting software on > it - the bundled version of MATLAB, and BIOGRAF, a molecular modeling > application Neat! Excellent! Do you have the source for any/all of the software on it? Noel

7 years, 8 months

Bill Godbout

by aek＠bitsavers.org

"drrt1968 at gmail.com" posted on AFC this morning that Bill died in the Camp fire in Northern California on Thursday. Has anyone else heard about this?

7 years, 8 months

DEC Professional 350 ROMs

by shadoooo＠gmail.com

Hello, this is what I found: These ROMS can be read on an EPROM programmer as an MC68766 part, as long as the programer strobes CS or OE when reading each consecutive address. Most will do that. They can be directly replaced with pin-compatible EPROM MC68766 or MCM68766C35 but these are obsolete though easily available as surplus parts for about 10 dollars each. The SCM90448C might also be a direct replacement. Modern EPROM 27HC641 aka M27HC641 can be used and is pin compatible, as long as you cook the data before burning, because A10 and A12 (if I remember correctly) are swapped. Hope this helps. Andrea

7 years, 8 months

TCL Terminal

by dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com

Folks, While sorting through my pile of 3270 terminals I came across a little plastic box with 2 x 9-pin rs232, 1x25pin printer port and one VGA port. On taking the lid off it seems it's a terminal for NYCE made by TCL but I can find no info on the net. I put a few pics of it here:- https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onkY8FlfveCwr73J5HIw I can't seem to get into ant set-up menus, and I am sure it used to show these, Does any one have any documents on these? Searching on google is hampered by the fact there is a TCL language. Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE

7 years, 8 months

Jump to page:

2026

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

2001

2000

1999

1998

1997

test-drb