(once more, from the correct email account...)
Hi guys,
Does anyone have any details on the control protocol for the keyboard on
the AT&T 3B1?
A command list and/or scan code list would be most useful... or even
actual driver source code :)
I'm about a third of the way there with my emulator -- it's running the
BootPROM, passes the MAPRAM, VRAM and Base RAM self tests, and I'm well
on the way to implementing memory mapping/protection and the UI
interfaces (keyboard, mouse and video)... I'm not sure how to go about
emulating the telephony hardware though; I might just leave that
"unemulated" for now.
Thanks,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
On 12/01/10 23:55, Richard<legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
> In article<alpine.DEB.2.00.1012011116190.24432 at slate.spiritone.com>,
> "Zane H. Healy"<healyzh at aracnet.com> writes:
>
>> > On Wed, 1 Dec 2010, Richard wrote:
>> >
>>> > > Since it has a BSD kernel underneath, I'm guessing that all of the OS
>>> > > proper is written in C and that all the Apple stuff on top is written
>>> > > in Objective-Cish.
>> >
>> > It does not have a BSD kernel underneath. It uses the Mach Microkernel.
>> > It has a BSD layer on top of that.
> Sorry, my mistake. I knew there was BSD in there somewhere. Still, I
> doubt the Mach stuff is written in Objective-C, although I believe it
> originally came from NeXT, so who knows.
Well, technically, OS X is neither Mach, nor BSD. But a mix of both. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU for more details. But I'd consider it
closer to BSD than Mach myself. There is not really much of the
microkernel left in there...
Johnny
At 11:04 PM 12/2/2010, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2 Dec 2010, Eric Smith wrote:
> >> > A[i++] = i++;
> >> I can't quote chapter and verse, but I'm fairly sure the standard will
> >> say that the result of that assignment is undefined.
> >
> > C can be pretty loose about letting you do such.
>
>There are many things that folks commonly do that are officially
>undefined... like strlen(NULL) (that returned 0 on an NCR box but
>segfaulted a SPARC - the NCR guys tried to claim it proved the Sun was
>broken, but I had to point out that it's undefined).
I remember this with a large potential customer with a bunch of
applications running on HP-UX that needed to be ported to ULTRIX.
lots of code like
strcpy(foo, NULL);
used to initialize strings and
strcmp(foo, NULL)
to see if a string is empty, etc. Apparently location 0 in memory had a
zero.
Fixing this required a lot of work, then we had to fix binary blobs
written to disk (big-endian) to fix them to little-endian.
All of this was used to demonstrate that the DEC platform was obviously
unusable.
Aren't sales reps fun?
Probably more relevant to the compiler optimization thread, another fun
with marketing incident was the Sun rep handing our customer a "simple
little benchmark" that their compiler apparently recognized and
optimized out. The SPARC ran it in seconds while our MIPS based machine
took quite a while. This was my first run-in with the benchmark
preprocessor that did "deep optimization" of the SPECmark benchmarks.
-Rick
SCSI to IDE
Joachim Thiemann joachim.thiemann
<mailto:cctalk%40classiccmp.org?Subject=Re%3A%20SCSI%20to%20IDE&In-Reply-To=
%3CAANLkTikac5TkJkKANRBy_tH4rvEUZPE0qfBfS%3DouSuJN%40mail.gmail.com%3E> at
gmail.com
Sat Nov 27 09:07:00 CST 2010
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_____
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:48, joe lobocki <jlobocki at gmail.com
<http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk> > wrote:
> So what is our option? I have seen SCSI to IDE adapters around, but they
go
> up into the $100's to $200's, say you have a minimum 10 machines, that
> leaves you somewhere between $1,000 and $2,000 total, before the disk or
> devices. If we could design a simple SCSI to IDE interface, we could be
set
> for a good long while on storage for these devices for a decent amount of
> time. There are all sorts of adapters to IDE, there is CF to IDE, SD to
> IDE,
> SD to CF which could be placed in a CF to IDE adapter if need be, i'm sure
> one could also rig up a USB drive to SCSI if one tried, but I could be
> wrong.
>
>
I have previously proposed here a SCSI-to-SD interface; I've only done
preliminary brainstorming on it, but think it should not be too hard. The
SD card interface is very simple, both from a logic and electrical point of
view: if you don't care much about speed it can be done with SPI. (the speed
should be sufficient to keep up with 68k Mac, Amiga and Atari) All logic
can probably be done in a single AVR or even PIC chip, if you run that at
3.3V, the only additional hardware is the SCSI level shifters.
I do not know enough about low-level SCSI to start designing this yet, and
since I gave away my Amiga 3000 and classic Macs my interest in this project
has all but disappeared... still it'd be kinda fun, I think.
Joe.
--
Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem
-----REPLY-----
There was some room left on my SCSI to IDE converter board design so I added
an SD socket.
The SD circuit is very simple and is able to work with some left over inputs
and outputs from the UART.
I think this design would allow for a SCSI to SD converter as you mentioned.
The original intent was for SCSI to IDE converter but would also allow for
SCSI to CF via an IDE to CF adapter.
After a closer reading of the Z53C80 datasheet, I think it is possible to
implement both the polling mode and
a pseudo-DMA mode SCSI. The circuitry seems pretty straight forward and I
think an 8 MHz Z80 should be
able to get some fairly decent transfer speeds.
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?22906-SCSI-1-to-from-
IDE-drive-converter
Andrew Lynch
I've got to clear out some various backup tapes I've been keeping for
several years now. For starters, I have a bunch of QW5122F and QIC-3020 taumat
format tape carts available. pay for shipping and anything else you want to
add, and they are yours. Reply off list please.
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 12:55:59 -0500
> From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
>> ? That is not so hard, it is very common to build machines like this in
>> Brazil.
>
> Second hand Taigs are fairly plentiful and not horribly expensive.
> They are plenty capable of PC board drillwork, plus you can do all
> sortf os other fun things with them as well.
I did a search on Taig. Interesting machines and the prices look
comparatively good. I was considering a lathe a while back for my
rocketry hobby...
Which machine would one need for automated drilling? It looks like the
CNC Mill would be needed. It's new price is $2200+. It would have to be
discounted an awful lot on the used market before I would think that was a
better buy than just having boards professionally fabricated.
I think the Micro Mill is mechanically capable of the job, but it doesn't
seem to have any type of automated controls, but perhaps I just don't
understand what a mill is.
Which leads to the other issue. In order to make an intelligent decision
about buying a drilling machine, it seems that I must become moderately
educated about the art of machining. Which is an interesting topic, but
not the hobby I was setting out to practice.
This is what ultimately stopped me from buying a lathe for rocketry.
Toner transfer PCB fabrication is attractive because I already have a
laser printer that serves another purpose. A laminator takes up little
space and is easy to put away. The etching tank is a bit of a pain, but
not too bad.
The problem is when I start adding in a milling machine, learning enough
about machining to make intelligent purchases, or building a drilling
machine out of a plotter, and the same two issues for electroplating,
which also kind of leads to building one's own power supply (AKA plating
rectifier).
All of these are interesting topics/diversions, but enough of them and one
isn't practicing hobby electronics any more, one is practicing PCB making
as the primary hobby.
Of course, if enough of my hobbies lead to machining, maybe I should take
it up. I don't know where I'd make the space for the tools though.
Someone else mentioned using a drill press with jigs. How would that
work? Would that be like having a pre-drilled template? That might be
interesting. I could see using the toner transfer procedure on a piece of
steel, then drilling the steel and then pegging boards to the steel for
future drilling in stacks. Might be a little hard on the drills if they
aren't well centered though.
Jeff Walther
Ken Knowlton sent me a paper from AFIPS 1964 on his BEFLIX language
for creating animations (named from "Bell Flicks" as the work was done
at Bell Labs). The language uses "MACRO FAP" as its implementation
layer so to create a modern implementation of BEFLIX, I would need to
know some things about "MACRO FAP".
Google led me to this page:
<http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN/source/ibsys/FORTRAN/9…>
Which seems to be the IBM 7090 assembly source code for the MACRO FAP
program, from which I glean that "FAP" is an acronym for "FORTRAN
ASSEMBLY PROGRAM". I don't know 7090 assembly, although I can guess
at the opcodes.
This leads me to the following questions:
1) How long has softwarepreservation.org been around? Its part of the
CHM, but I haven't stumbled on this web site before.
2) Does anyone have any experience with MACRO FAP that can help me
understand the semantics of MACRO FAP instructions?
3) Barring that, does anyone have any IBM 7090 assembly experience
that can help me understand the semantics of the implementation of
MACRO FAP so that I can understand the semantics of its command
language?
BEFLIX is actually quite interesting and could be fun in creating
animated movies today. Its got a combination of simple 2D graphics
primitives, turtle graphics and animation control in its command set.
I'd like to write a BEFLIX interpreter for modern experimentation.
Seeing as BEFLIX was created in 1964, its probably one of the oldest,
if not the oldest, domain specific language for creating computer
graphics animations.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
On 12/01/10 08:13, Rich Alderson<RichA at vulcan.com> wrote:
> From: Dennis Boone
> Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 5:57 PM
>
>>>> >>> I can't find any COBOL, BASIC, MODULA, CORAL, DIBOL, etc.
>>> >> In 7.3, I'm sure that's now true. I'm pretty sure I remember some
>>> >> COBOL and BASIC back in the 4.x and 5.x days, but I can't promise that
>>> >> my memory is 100% correct.
>> > Given the RSX heritage, I wouldn't be surprised if some BASIC code came
>> > across. I was actually almost surprised not to find MODULA, but a bit
>> > of googling suggests my memory of a DEC compiler is erroneous. I would
>> > only expect to find COBOL in some kind of reporting tool, where
>> > performance wouldn't so much.
> I think you've confused RSX-11M (the basis of VMS) with RSTS/E (the version
> in existence by the time VMS came to be written). RSX-11{A,B,C,D,M,S} is
> very much Macro-11 oriented; I'm not sure that there is a BASIC available.
Late to the thread... (as usual) :-)
Yes, there exists BASIC for RSX. It's called BASIC+2. But no part of RSX
proper have anything to do with this layered product.
RSX-11M(+) is mostly written in MACRO-11, with some BLISS-11 in there.
Johnny
On 12/01/10 08:13, Dennis Boone<drb at msu.edu> wrote:
> > > I can't find any COBOL, BASIC, MODULA, CORAL, DIBOL, etc.
>
> > In 7.3, I'm sure that's now true. I'm pretty sure I remember some
> > COBOL and BASIC back in the 4.x and 5.x days, but I can't promise that
> > my memory is 100% correct.
>
> Given the RSX heritage, I wouldn't be surprised if some BASIC code came
> across. I was actually almost surprised not to find MODULA, but a bit
> of googling suggests my memory of a DEC compiler is erroneous. I would
> only expect to find COBOL in some kind of reporting tool, where
> performance wouldn't so much.
??? What made you connect RSX with BASIC? There is not a single piece of
RSX that has anything to do with BASIC, as far as I know.
You'll have to go to some layered products before you find any BASIC at
all in relation to RSX.
Were you perhaps thinking of RSTS/E?
Johnny
Hi guys,
Does anyone have any details on the control protocol for the keyboard on
the AT&T 3B1?
A command list and/or scan code list would be most useful... or even
actual driver source code :)
I'm about a third of the way there with my emulator -- it's running the
BootPROM, passes the MAPRAM, VRAM and Base RAM self tests, and I'm well
on the way to implementing memory mapping/protection and the UI
interfaces (keyboard, mouse and video)... I'm not sure how to go about
emulating the telephony hardware though; I might just leave that
"unemulated" for now.
Thanks,
--
Phil.
philpem at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
