Phil:
I also have a "Datamasher", which did work at one point. Now, I can't seem to
get it to boot from the Diagnostic Diskette. I don't know if the diskette is
bad, or if the floppy is bad. I don't know if it is possible, but would you
be willing to make a copy of a known-bootable disk and send it to me?? I'll
cover the cost of postage. I'd also like to get some sort of operations
manuals, but that is probobly not in the cards at this point.
Anyway, when I first got the 23 (also known as the 5322; from a school in
Gerogia), I made contact with John Kelley, whose wife worked on the Datamaster
project. Below is a copy of the message thread. I thought that you might be
interested...
=================
#: 517922 S0/General [H]
07-Dec-94 18:27:07
Sb: #517503-#IBM 5322 Datamstr?
Fm: Richard Cini 70153,3367
To: John Kelley 73467,450 (X)
John:
I do have several questions:
1: An historical Perspective -- What was IBM's original purpose for that
machine?? I read somewhere that the Datamaster was supposed to be IBM's first
'personal computer' (which flopped after a short time, and was replaced with
the IBM PC). If that's true, how long did IBM make the 5322? The PC was
introduced in 8/81, but my 5322 has manufacturing date tags in late-1982.
What was it like working on a project like that? I've always been
fascinated by the thoughts of people who basically created a
multi-billion-dollar industry, the market climate, as well as comparing the
capabilities of those machines to today's. In fact, I collect old,
historically-significant computers.
2: Was there any real software available for that machine, or was it
around for too short of a time to garner any significant market support?
3: What was its specifications? I didn't take the whole thing apart yet,
I
just cleaned it up and turned it on to see if it worked. (Yes, it works!)
4: Do you have any of its documentation original; maybe a system manual
or
a system diskette? How about schematics or a service manual?
5: Anything else that you may find useful.
Thanks so much for your (and your wife's) help!
Regards...
Rich
There are 2 Replies.
#: 518568 S0/General [H]
09-Dec-94 08:51:43
Sb: #517922-IBM 5322 Datamstr?
Fm: John Kelley 73467,450
To: Richard Cini 70153,3367 (X)
Richard,
I will convey your questions to the expert and get back to you. I can tell
you this regarding creating a multi-billion-dollar industry: the folks doing
the development work were too busy with heavy overtime in the trenches to have
much opportunity for "big picture" thinking. IBM had a very structured
software development process.
Back to you later,
- John K.
#: 519705 S0/General [H]
12-Dec-94 08:52:04
Sb: #517922-IBM 5322 Datamstr?
Fm: John L. Kelley 73467,450
To: Richard Cini 70153,3367 (X)
Rich,
Things were busy this weekend but I did get some info for you.
The System 23 (Datamaster) was indeed the first move towards a PC. It was
the first IBM product to use a non-IBM processor, namely the Intel 8085.
Interestingly, this fact is what made the product revolutionary within IBM,
and a threat to some. Apparently there was much conflict internally over the
non-Blue processor. Some say that the only reason the product saw the light
of day was that Frank Cary (then chairman of IBM) had gotten convinced by the
backers of the system. Otherwise it would have died of attacks from the
entrenched interests.
It was actually IBM's first attempt at a PC. IBM provided business software:
billing, accounts payable and receivable, general ledger, inventory,
report-writer, etc. IBM provided telephone support through an Atlanta location
to users of this software. The "real" PC came along right on its heels and so
it never saw large volume, but thousands of users called the support lines, so
it was in use. There may have been third party software as well.
Some of the managers and developers who worked on this product also worked on
the development of the real PC. The 23 apparently started shipping in 1980,
and was still being sold when the IBM PC emerged. Big brother was then
eclipsed by little brother.
We don't seem to have much documentation or info on specs but something may
turn up. I'll have to get back to you on that.
To me, the interesting thing is that this "PC version 0.5" was almost killed
by internal interests, just as the real PC was almost killed.
Good luck with your collection!
- John K.
=======================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 11:23:18 BST
From: Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk
To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Subject: EBCDIC
Message-ID: <9705238670.AA867090681(a)compsci.powertech.co.uk>
Last week - while I was on holiday on the Noprfolk Broads - someone (I
forget who) asked if there had ever been a microcomputer that used
EBCDIC.
Anyone else out there have one of these? Know any more about it?
{etc.}
Philip.
At 13:54 23/06/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it
>> has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][
>> clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure
>> someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never
>> saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989.
>
>I believe these were designed/built in Europe, probably Germany.
In Italy there was Lemon computer building Apple-clones.
Has anyone heard about them?
Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl.com> writes:
> On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it
> has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][
> clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure
> someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never
> saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989.
Yep, a Basis 108. They are something like the Apple ][+ with
integrated language card, Microsoft Softcard and some sort of
80-column display on the motherboard, all housed in a big brown cast
metal case with a detachable keyboard. Um...there are also integrated
serial and parallel I/O, but I think there was something
not-quite-compatible about the way they were decoded so one or the
other or maybe both did not appear to be at the canonical slot
addresses.
They were made in Germany and imported into the US. I can't remember
all the details, but I think Apple tried to restrict their import for
a while (maybe due to ROM copyright issues?) and the distributor
changed hands and/or locations a couple of times. For a while it was
in Scotts Valley, CA, then I think went to somewhere in New England.
Maybe I have it backwards.
I bought one used (via the net) for ~$500 ca. 1991 because I missed my
Apple ][+ (had left it with Mom, who just did not get the hang of
Wordstar under CP/M and now has a Mac Plus, and yes I got my ][+
back). And the posted ad was for a dream system: Basis 108, PCPI
Applicard, Vista 8" disk controller, Videx Ultraterm with a good
monitor that could really show the lotsa-text you could get with one
of those. All the stuff I had had in my ][+ and, more importantly,
*all the stuff I had lusted after*.
The only problems were due to some carelessness in packing, and the
system was shipped from Connecticut to California. Mistakes submitted
for your educational experience:
The floppy drives are mounted by way of having brackets screwed to
them which are then screwed to the base. The end result is that for
each of two floppy drives there are these two brackets holding a
floppy drive some distance above the base. Well, the shipper left
them in, and UPS threw the package around enough that the brackets
deformed and broke loose from the base. So the floppy drives with
brackets could rattle around inside. (To be fair, I'm not sure I'd
have caught this either, but I certainly won't ship things where two
solid objects are connected quite like that -- not without dismantling
them first.)
He had also left the peripheral cards installed. Apple ][ peripheral
cards just sit in their slots, there are no card guides or screws or
anything like that. Well, guess what the floppy drives whacked into
as they rattled around, not that I really think they would have stayed
in place anyway. The boards weren't broken, but some of the ICs had
been popped out and mashed. Between loose bits and spares that came
with the system and other bits I had around I was able to get it
working again, but still haven't replaced the floppy-drive brackets to
my satisfaction. So it has a couple of gaping holes up front with
half-height floppies showing where there should be full-height units.
...
I don't have room to set the system up at present, so it is in
storage. Except for its manuals, some of which are on loan to a
friend of mine over the hill in Santa Cruz (who had one when he lived
in Buffalo, NY and picked up another one at Weird Stuff a few years
ago). If y'all have particular questions about this send e-mail and I
will ask for them back and try to find the other bits in storage. It
is a fairly thorough set of documentation, including user group
newsletters, and would probably shed a little light on things I can't
remember about it and Basis and the moves in distributorship and so
forth.
One other thing I remember about this system is that the previous owner
had bought a set of Apple ROMs, then copied them *and* the Basis ROMs
into 2732?s with a switch on the back to select one bank or the other.
So he could boot with Basis or Apple personalities depending on what he
needed to be compatible with. There were some things that depended on
each, but I can't remember specifics.
I remember seeing slicks somewhere in there for another Basis system
that had two half-height 8" floppy drives in a similar case (different
cutout up front for the floppies), and have the impression that that
was a pure CP/M machine. Never saw one up close, though. Anyone know
anything about that?
-Frank McConnell
At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Allison J Parent wrote:
>
>> There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience
>> with.
>I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you
>start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence
>meant)
>--
>================================================================
>Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K.
>tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile
>website <http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi>
>================================================================
>visit Brighton: <http://www.brighton.co.uk/tourist/welcome.htm>
How quaint. A culture TROLL in a classic computer mailing list.
Perhaps you were looking for alt.usa-sucks.
At least the subject header now fits.
James
jscarter(a)worldnet.att.net
ive also got a pcjr, with a 128k module and a printer adaptor. isnt this
thing supposed to run whatever cartridge you plug in? i noticed it resets
when you insert one. my pcjr only boots to basic because ive been too lazy to
make a dos 3.3 boot disk. i also have a joystick and serial/video/rf
mod./300b modem in all their original boxes too along with a tech ref and
basic guide. i have a cable/dongle for it that will let you plug in a
standard cga monitor into the back. if anyone's interested, i could post the
pinouts of the dongle so you can use cga. the last hamfest i went to have
pcjr stuff for $1 a peice! that's where i got my missing psu from.
david
At 21:44 20/06/97 +0100, we wrote:
>>
>>>Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a
>>>multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with
>>>22DISK on your PC-clone.
>>>I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write
>>CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM)
>>By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here?
>>
>>Ciao
>>
>>i own a 1570, its a american one with a step down transformer, Its
>connected to my PC, and guess what, it writes CPM!!!
>Steve
>Emulator BBS
>01284 760851
>Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE
Hi Steve,
Yours was the only one response I get (since now) from C=1570 owners
Mine was made in Germany (did you buy it in the U.S.?)
Ciao
Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files
01284 760851
Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE
I just got a couple of unidentified front panels. If anyone can shed
some light on what computers these come from, please let me know!
Front Panel #1:
- No bezel
- Has flat switches exactly like the Imsai except they're all black
- In the upper right there's a 16-key hexadecimal keypad; black keys
with white lettering.
- Two rows of switches; 7 in the upper left, and a row of 18 below.
- There are numerous LEDs arranged mostly in banks of 4 with 7545 TTL
drivers.
- The LEDs are on a riser card about 1/2" off the main front panel card.
The main card is dark gray and the LED card is green.
- Three 40-pin ribbon cable connectors on the bottom edge.
Front Panel #2:
- Very simple design with metal bezel. Looks like it's from a mini.
- 20 cup-shaped plastic paddle switches, some navy blue, some sky blue
in color.
- Switches are labeled "CLR, STP, MRD, MWR, ADR, EXE" and numbers 2
through 15.
- Three lights in the upper left are labeled "POWER, WAIT, CARRY,
ENABLE"
- There's a key lock in the lower right
- A bundle of cables trail from the panel terminating in two 46-pin
connectors and a few power leads.
- An ink stamp on the PCB reads "5172" - 5/1/72 perhaps?
thanks all! By the way, if someone needs one of these, let me know!
Kai
Once they are broke, they are broke, trust me on this, You can remove the
keycaps, but the switch itself is sealed in one piece.
----------
> From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: apple II - SCORE!
> Date: Tuesday, June 24, 1997 12:40 PM
>
> On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote:
>
> > Nip! Sad story about key problem...
> >
> > Can't you take that switch apart and clean it with alcohol? I had to
> > do that on my "speedy". Generic keyboard but used good quality gold
> > contacts switch in it only minor cleaning there then it worked 100%
> > The one key tab needed pounding to get anything but now I just
> > merely poke it. :) Total time of repair: 15 to 20 mins.
>
> I don't think you can do that with apple keys. Once they're broke
> they're broke. I could be wrong about this. I've just never tried it.
> At the time, I don't think I would've had the dexterity necessary to fix
> the key. At the very least I didn't have the brain capacity to think
> about it.
>
>
> Sam
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer,
Jackass
Im gonna take a risk here, but do any of these folks collect computers,
maybe the recent conversations havn't driven them nuts and they can give us
some information about old computers rather than start some type of
political hate crime debate. GROW UP EVERYONE.
----------
> From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)crl.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Why?
> Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 8:09 PM
>
> At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you
> >start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence
>
> But we are a country of other cultures. My father came over from Germany
as
> a boy. My mother was of english descent (going back to Ann Boleyn and
> Katherine(?) Howard, two of Henry VIII's wives). My sister is an
honorary
> Nigerian. My girlfriend is Russian, French Canadian, and who knows what
> else. Her sister-in-law is a philippina. Some of my best friends
include
> jamaicans, scotsman, irish, french, german, native american, japanese,
> chinese, aussies, South African, eritrean, and so on.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
>
> Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
> sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know."
> Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
> San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
Something is odd here. There was some 25 PCjr messages in my box.
Somehow the discussion didn't get to me 'til it was underway.
I did go through them but I don't know anything. :)
Anyway, assuming PC Enterprises still carries this stuff, you might want
to check with them. The catalogue also doubles as an information source
since they give a few paragraphs on various tech stuff.
For instance what happens when your system board malfunctions, etc.
Here's some stuff from their PCjr catalogue that may
be of interest. There's a lot so this is just a few.
PCjr System Board #78739 $98
Power Supply Transformer (brick) #78712 $44
PCjr Power Supply Card (original) #78707 $49.95
PCjr Power Supply Card (heavy duty) #78729 $69.95
64K Memory & Display Expansion #78709 $50
Cartridge BASIC #78722 $119
Configuration Plus Cartridge #18026 $29.95
Allows for using BASIC/BASICA if you don't have
Cartridge BASIC
Compatibility Cartridge #18032 $39.95
Allows for running "modern" DOS apps that normally have
problems with the PCjr BIOS
Combo Cartridge V3.0 #18034 $89.95
Combination of four different cartridges (available separatly):
Compatibility, Quicksilver (memory speedup), Keyboard Buffer,
jrVideo (video speedup).
jrExcellerator Speed-up Board #14802 $99
Megaboard Sidecard #14031 $199
Adds 1MB to anything else you already have.
Load High Sidecar #97509 $35
Brings 640K system to 736K
There's a lot more (drives, video, etc.). Also info and memory expansion
for Rapport, Racore, and Quadram users.
This catalogue is from 1995 and no doubt they don't have everything
anymore (if their lack of Tandy parts is any indication).
PC Enterprises is the reason I have EMS and SCSI on my Tandy 1000 HX
but most of the stuff they used to have is no more.
1-800-922-7257 or 908-280-0025.
Getting help is also a problem.
Marc
--
>> ANIME SENSHI <<
Marc D. Williams
marcw(a)lightside.com
marc.williams(a)mb.fidonet.org
IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos #IrcHelp
http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools
