test-drb January 2019

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

149 participants
213 discussions

off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Dave Wade > The only machine I know where a "byte" is not eight bits is the > Honeywell L6000 and its siblings I'm not sure why I bother to post to this list, since apparently people don't bother to read my messages. >From the "pdp10 reference handbook", 1970, section 2.3, "Byte Manipulation", page 2-15: "This set of five instructions allows the programmer to pack or unpack bytes of any length from anywhere within a word. ... The byte manipulation instructions have the standard memory reference format, but the effective address E is used to retrieve a pointer, which is used in turn to locate the byte ... The pointer has the format 0 5 6 11 12 13 14 17 18 35 P S I X Y where S is the size of the byte as a number of bits, and P as its position as the number of bits remaining at the right of the byte in the word ... To facilitate processing a series of bytes, several of the byte instructions increment the pointer, ie modify it so that it points to the next byte position in a set of memory locations. Bytes are processed from left to right in a word, so incrementing merely replaces the current value of P by P-S, unless there is insufficient space in the present location [i.e. 'word' - JNC] for another byte of the specified size (P-S < 0). In this case Y is increased by one to point at the next consecutive location, and P is set to 36 - S to point to the first byte at the left in the new location." Now imagine implementing all that in FLIP CHIPs which held transistors (this is before ICs)! Anyway, like I said, at least ITS (of the PDP-10 OS's) used this to store ASCII in words which contain five 7-bit _bytes_. I don't know if TENEX did. > I also feel the use of the term Octet was more marketing to distance > ones machines from IBM..... Huh? Which machine used the term 'octet'? Like I said, we adapted and used the term 'octet' in TCP/IP documentation (and that's definite - go check out historical documents, e.g. RFC-675 from 1974) because 'byte' was at the time ambiguous - the majority of machines on the ARPANET at that point were PDP-10's (see above). Interestingly, I see it's not defined in that document (or in the earlier RFC-635), so it must have already been in use for an 8-bit quantity? Doing a little research, there is a claim that Bob Bemer independently invented the term in 1965/66. Perhaps someone subconciously remembered his proposal, and that's the ultimate source? The term is also long used in chemistry and music, of course, so perhaps that's where it came from. Noel

5 years, 11 months

Decus #8-250 Fast Fourier Transform

by djg＠pdp8online.com

Anybody on the list get these tapes? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Decus-8-250-Fast-Fourier-Transform-FFT-Software-on… I missed seeing that auction.

5 years, 11 months

ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo

by drlegendre＠gmail.com

I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust for playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, looking for a home? Thanks in advance.

5 years, 11 months

off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: William Donzelli >> in 1980, there were more PDP-11's, world-wide, than any other kind of >> computer. > I bet the guys at Zilog might have something to talk to you about. I was quoting my memory of a DEC ad in the WSJ, which now that I go check, says the -11 was "the best-selling computer in the world" (the ad was in 1980). There are a number of possible explanations as to why it makes this claim: - some marketing person made it up - they were only counting things that were general-purpose (i.e. came with mass storage and compilers) - they didn't consider micros as "computers" (many were used in things like printers, etc, and were not usable as general-purpose computers) Etc, etc. Noel

5 years, 11 months

IDOL/VS Manual

by silent700＠gmail.com

I am preparing to scan this manual on the IDOL/VS database system, which was initially a product of "Systems Specialties" but was later purchased by MAI for their Basic Four systems. I can't find any documentation on this product on Bitsavers or anywhere else. If anyone is aware of this manual online, please let me know. And if anyone wants the original once it's scanned, I'll be happy to send it for the cost of postage from 60070. J

5 years, 11 months

Miscellaneous Equipment for free (Mostly DEC) in Lexington KY

by useddec＠gmail.com

Any Uni-bus or PDP8 items? I have plenty of boxes or I would jump on it, but if some one picks them up I have most of the boards. Thanks, Paul On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 2:06 PM keith--- via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Miscellaneous Equipment for free (Mostly DEC) in Lexington KY. Local > Pick highly preferred. > > I need to empty my storage unit. I have various pieces available for > free, local pickup. > > One thing to note, it has not been stored properly. It has been stored > in a rental storage unit with no heat or cooling. I do not know if any > of the units are still functional and there is no power at the storage > unit to verify the equipment. > > 1) BA23 Chassis. Was a PDP11/23 at some point but there are no cards > or drives. It is in the tower configuration but the front cover is > missing. > > 2) DecStation 3100. Appears complete and in decent condition. > > 3) VT220 terminal. Very yellowed > > 4) A few LK201 keyboards. Not pretty > > 5) VRM17-HA Monitor. 17" monochrome monitor for a Vaxstation. It did > work at one time but see above. Yellowed. > > 6) IBM CRT VGA Monochrome monitor > > 7) Macintosh SE. With Ethernet! Very Yellowed. > > 8) BA213 Chassis. Some corrosion and possible water damage. Back-plane > looks very good. Insulation is deteriorating. This was a Microvax 3500 > at one time until the mice got in. > > Picture are available here: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/stupido/albums/72157702145168162 > > I may add more equipment to the list as I sort things out. I want to > empty the storage unit by the end of this month. Anything that I can't > or don't want to keep then will go to recycle. > > thanks > > Max >

5 years, 11 months

off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > I think it's also telling that the IETF uses the term octet in all of > the specifications to refer to 8-bit sized data. Yes; at the time the TCP/IP specs were done, PDP-10's were still probably the most numerous machines on the 'net, so we were careful to use 'octet'. Although the writing was clearly on the wall, which is why it's all in octets, with no support for other-length words (unlike the ARPANET, which sort of supported word lengths which were not a multiple of 8 or 16 - which was actually use to transfer binary data between 36-bit machines). > It *may* have been the IBM 360 that started the trend of Byte = > 8-bits Yup. And then the PDP-11 put the nail in that coffin (and in 1980, there were more PDP-11's, world-wide, than any other kind of computer). Noel

5 years, 11 months

Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

by technoid6502＠gmail.com

What defines a 'modern processor'. The term is pretty slippery. The Crusoe used microcode to emulate x86 and could therefore emulate any processor architecture Transmeta wanted. Crusoe was a pioneer in the low power market, the processor dynamically clocked itself in very small steps depending on need. This is a familiar feature now but was pretty revolutionary for the time. Interestingly, Linux Torvalds was in on the design and was on the board of Transmeta. A fair number were sold to Sony for their VIAO series of notebooks. Does Crusoe qualify as a 'modern' processor? In my book yes, but I have a very old book.. :0 best, Jeff

5 years, 11 months

Microcode dated?

by technoid6502＠gmail.com

On Sun, 2019-01-06 at 12:00 -0600, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) (Chuck Guzis) > 2. Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) (Chuck Guzis) > 3. Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) (ED SHARPE) > 4. off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP > (Dr Iain Maoileoin) > 5. Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) (ED SHARPE) > 6. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Fritz Mueller) > 7. uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Jacob Ritorto) > 8. Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Richard Cini) > 9. KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams (Noel Chiappa) > 10. Re: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams (Fritz Mueller) > 11. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Jerry Weiss) > 12. Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Jerry Weiss) > 13. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Fritz Mueller) > 14. ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo (drlegendre) > 15. Re: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) > 16. SMECC on the hunt for Monarch hp 150 poster do U have one? > or a hi res clean scan? (ED SHARPE) > 17. Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Al Kossow) > 18. Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? (Josh Dersch) > 19. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Tony Duell) > 20. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Jerry Weiss) > 21. Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB (Curious Marc) > 22. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Fritz Mueller) > 23. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Tony Duell) > 24. Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem (Fritz Mueller) > 25. Re: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo (devin davison) > 26. Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? > HELP (Bob Smith) > 27. Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? > HELP (Grant Taylor) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:10:04 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> > To: Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) > Message-ID: <1651425f-f406-205d-5284-1e6fd1d7c00a at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Okay, I think I found the reference to it. > > It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in > the > "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'. To > quote: > > "The 1966 winner was William J. Elliott, a 12th grade student at West > High School in Minneapolis. His project, ELTRAN, is an algorithmic > language compiler system for the UNIVAC 422 computer. Until the > development of ELTRAN, no compiler existed for the computer." > > See PDF page 10 here: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/computersAndAutomation/196701.pdf > > --Chuck > > P.S. One of these days, I'm going to host a course on "how to use > Google". > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:17:52 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> > To: Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) > Message-ID: <6e237124-1ac7-700d-b9be-beda8f3a0e16 at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Since it was a 53-year old high-school project, I doubt that you're > going to find much on it. However, see the post by Steve Schweda > here: > > https://community.hpe.com/t5/Operating-System-OpenVMS/Left-shift-by-more-th… > > He may actually have some familiarity with ELTRAN and know where some > documentation exists. > > --Chuck > > > > > On 1/5/19 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Okay, I think I found the reference to it. > > > > It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in > > the > > "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to > > 12'. To quote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:21:53 +0000 (UTC) > From: ED SHARPE <couryhouse at aol.com> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) > Message-ID: <1152753582.13550260.1546712513898 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > (COME ON SOCRATES ...? DO YOUR? THING!) > > In a message dated 1/5/2019 1:49:38 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > no is compiler a small one only 2 do loops allowed...ed# > Sent from AOL Mobile MailOn Friday, January 4, 2019 Chuck Guzis via > cctalk <cclist at sydex.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:On 1/4/19 8:42 > PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:> Would be? interesting when you find > it.> Not necessarily "tiny"> Remember WATFOR??? (very impressive!) > I guesss not too many numerical methods types hwere, but ELTRAN is > asubroutine in the EISPACK linear programming set.? Yes, it's all > FORTRAN: > > From the subroutine: > cc? ? this subroutine is a translation of the algol procedure > elmtrans,c? ? num. math. 16, 181-204(1970) by peters and wilkinson.c? > ? handbook for auto. comp., vol.ii-linear algebra, 372-395(1971).cc? > ? this subroutine accumulates the stabilized elementaryc? ? > similarity transformations used in the reduction of ac? ? real > general matrix to upper hessenberg form by? elmhes. > --Chuck > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:36:56 +0000 > From: Dr Iain Maoileoin <iain at csp-partnership.co.uk> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? HELP > Message-ID: > <4BDE03FE-1A04-4060-B245-6EFDDC503B42 at csp-partnership.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Off topic, but looking for help and/or wisdom. > > If you visit https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov < > https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov>/ < > https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/> you will see some photos and wire- > lists of work that I have started on the front panel of a Capatob 2. > > I plan to get the switches and lights running on a blinkenbone board > with a PDP8 emulation behind it. (I already have an PDP11/70 front- > panel running on the same infrastructure) > > I have been struggling for over a year to get much info about this > saratov computer (circuit diagrams etc). So I have started the > reverse engineering on the panel. > > Does anybody know anything about this computer? online or offline it > would be much appreciated. > > Iain > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:17:56 +0000 (UTC) > From: ED SHARPE <couryhouse at aol.com> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, cclist at sydex.com, COURYHOUSE at aol.com > Subject: Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR > STUFF!))) > Message-ID: <860959218.13562972.1546715876710 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Chuck! Many thanks! > Update on? 422 UNIVAC? docs . .? some kind? ?people have mailed in? > docs and? ?things? they have? found related to this? 422 UNIVAC ...? > things are? shaping up! Many? thanks? ?to? all? these? folks- > > I? fear ever putting power to this? thing... so? may? parts to go? > POP... I have a nice large? Variac.....? ?suggestions? > Ed > > In a message dated 1/5/2019 11:18:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > Since it was a 53-year old high-school project, I doubt that you're > going to find much on it.? However, see the post by Steve Schweda > here: > > https://community.hpe.com/t5/Operating-System-OpenVMS/Left-shift-by-more-th… > > He may actually have some familiarity with ELTRAN and know where some > documentation exists. > > --Chuck > > > > > On 1/5/19 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Okay, I think I found the reference to it. > > > > It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in > > the > > "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'.? > > To quote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 12:58:44 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller <fritzm at fritzm.org> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <06515329-3961-4FF4-87FE-C11C3FDEF2AD at fritzm.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 8:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing just > > > fine. > > > > Don't forget Vonada Maxim #12: > > "Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems.? > > Well, there?s wisdom there, for sure! :-) > > Last night I also managed to put a new RSTS image, sysgen?d with the > non-overlapped DK driver, on a different physical pack. It behaved > exactly the same way on the real hardware (looping, counting up > errors) on boot. > > So I think now overlapped vs. non-overlapped DK driver is not the > issue, and media and image transfer fidelity are not the issue. A > memory or MMU problem would be consistent with what has been seen so > far, so I may bark up that tree a little more today. > > Paul, any additional suggestions for things to look at in ODT to try > and wring out more information on the specifics of the fault? > > I did get some MACRO CRC-16 sub-routines coded up last night while > waiting for various transfers, so I think I?ll go ahead and finish up > the standalone CRC dumper utility today. > > Lastly, a 5V-tolerant USB FIFO breakout board is supposed to show up > in the mails today. If that works out as simply as I hope to > interface with a DR11-C, I should have a much better way to blast > bits on and off the machine soon. > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 17:46:33 -0500 > From: Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: > < > CAHYQbfABUeqYRHVCDGFJW=AWwEmP85aCn5GUNeeVvbxKVNw=Ow at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hey all, > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? I just > bought a uc04 and it won't talk to any of my old scsi disks, seems to > think > there's supposed to be a "controller" in between :\ yuck. > > thx > jake > > P.S. While I'm at it, anyone know how to get UC04 to talk to directly > to > plain scsi disks and tapes instead of these lunatic ESDI controller > bridge > things? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 22:51:54 +0000 (UTC) > From: Richard Cini <rich.cini at verizon.net> > To: Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>, "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: > < > C8CACE9E45EB766D.E58C2E33-FDBF-42C3-836D-A38B62C941C3 at mail.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > I use it with a UC07. Not sure what the difference in the > controllers is thought. > > > > Get Outlook for iOS > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 5:46 PM -0500, "Jacob Ritorto via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey all, > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? I just > bought a uc04 and it won't talk to any of my old scsi disks, seems to > think > there's supposed to be a "controller" in between :\ yuck. > > thx > jake > > P.S. While I'm at it, anyone know how to get UC04 to talk to directly > to > plain scsi disks and tapes instead of these lunatic ESDI controller > bridge > things? > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:35:38 -0500 (EST) > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams > Message-ID: <20190105233538.972AD18C0BE at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > > The copy of the KD11-EA engineering drawings (in the 11/34A Field > Maintenance > Print Set, MP-00190) on Bitsavers is missing most of the pages that > hold the > microcode flow diagrams. I have a set of the KD11-EA FMPS (MP-00192), > which > does have all the missing pages, which I can eventually scan. > However, in the > interim, the 11/34 Field Maintenance Print Set Vol. 2 (MP-00082) on > Bitsavers > has a complete set of microcode flow diagrams for the KD11-E (pp. 15- > 40 of the > PDF), and they are almost identical to the KD11-EA diagrams. > > The only difference I can see (I compared page by page, to see if > each page > had the same microinstructions on it) is that on sheet 17; the last > microinstruction for RTI/RTT has been moved from 002 -> 744. (The > actual > microinstruction contents seem to be the same.) > > I don't know whyo the changed address; I originally thought that > perhaps they > had to re-do the IR Decode ROMs when they added floating point, and > they > needed the original location to handle the start of the floating > point > microcode, but that doesn't seem to be the case. > > Noel > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:04:29 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller <fritzm at fritzm.org> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: KD11-E/EA microcode flow diagrams > Message-ID: <B740924C-3A2A-467D-BD20-71373D26569D at fritzm.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 3:35 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > The only difference I can see (I compared page by page, to see if > > each page > > had the same microinstructions on it) is that on sheet 17; the last > > microinstruction for RTI/RTT has been moved from 002 -> 744. (The > > actual > > microinstruction contents seem to be the same.) > > That?s interesting... So what?s at 002 now? Maybe something new was > required there by micro branch/fork logic, so the original contents > had to be moved? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:06:48 -0600 > From: Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> > To: Fritz Mueller <fritzm at fritzm.org>, "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <c8bf1cf0-1cdc-f63b-278a-d0ccd75a86b1 at ieee.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 1/5/19 2:58 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 8:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > > All the CPU, FPU, KT11, KW11, and RK11 MAINDECS are passing > > > > just fine. > > > Don't forget Vonada Maxim #12: > > > "Diagnostics are highly efficient in finding solved problems.? > > Well, there?s wisdom there, for sure! :-) > > > > Last night I also managed to put a new RSTS image, sysgen?d with > > the non-overlapped DK driver, on a different physical pack. It > > behaved exactly the same way on the real hardware (looping, > > counting up errors) on boot. > > > > So I think now overlapped vs. non-overlapped DK driver is not the > > issue, and media and image transfer fidelity are not the issue. A > > memory or MMU problem would be consistent with what has been seen > > so far, so I may bark up that tree a little more today. > > > > Paul, any additional suggestions for things to look at in ODT to > > try and wring out more information on the specifics of the fault? > > > > I did get some MACRO CRC-16 sub-routines coded up last night while > > waiting for various transfers, so I think I?ll go ahead and finish > > up the standalone CRC dumper utility today. > > > > Lastly, a 5V-tolerant USB FIFO breakout board is supposed to show > > up in the mails today. If that works out as simply as I hope to > > interface with a DR11-C, I should have a much better way to blast > > bits on and off the machine soon. > > > > cheers, > > --FritzM. > > > Along those lines if you have a spare disk pack, try putting > RT11(FB,XM) > on the machine and give it a workout.?? This would exercise the > machine > a bit more than MAINDECS, though not as much as RSTS. > > A few suggestions from my ancient history running RK11-C and a mix > of > DEC and Diablo Drives.? I regularly disassembled, moved cross > country > and reassembled PDP 11/34 and LSI 11/73 systems. I ran them in small > rooms which housed saltwater tanks containing sea creatures. > > * Given the age of this equipment, double check all the ground > connections between the cabinets, PDU's, drives, outlets and CPU. > * Carefully check for breaks or problems with drive cables and > terminators. > * I believe you need a terminator in the RK11-C if the second disk > bus > is unused. > * Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be booted of > from DK4. > * Make sure you only have one LTC active if a DL11-W and a KW11 are > both in use. > * If you are not using a common PDU for the CPU, Drive and RK11-C > power supplies, make sure they all powered from outlets on the > same > phase. > * Don't leave the disk packs or drives near the tanks.? The squid > have > good aim and their ink isn't kind to electrical devices. > > ??? Jerry > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 18:27:15 -0600 > From: Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> > To: Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>, "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: <8f48055c-6ca2-d342-25d2-4c2baaedb0d3 at ieee.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Hi Jake, > > I don't have a UC04, but its manual states its? Peripheral Interface > is > SCSI single ended.? The pinout is just like the UC07, except for > terminator power. > > ??? Jerry > > On 1/5/19 4:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all, > > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? I > > just > > bought a uc04 and it won't talk to any of my old scsi disks, seems > > to think > > there's supposed to be a "controller" in between :\ yuck. > > > > thx > > jake > > > > P.S. While I'm at it, anyone know how to get UC04 to talk to > > directly to > > plain scsi disks and tapes instead of these lunatic ESDI controller > > bridge > > things? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:44:51 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller <fritzm at fritzm.org> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <2CA1BCC4-8E94-4A21-9A3F-10F3AFFDBA03 at fritzm.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Jerry, > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 4:06 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote: > > > > Along those lines if you have a spare disk pack, try putting > > RT11(FB,XM) on the machine and give it a workout. This would > > exercise the machine a bit more than MAINDECS, though not as much > > as RSTS. > > Yup, I have previously had RT-11 running on this machine without > incident. > > > ? I believe you need a terminator in the RK11-C if the second > > disk bus is unused. > > Yep, got that in there. > > > ? Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be booted of > > from DK4. > > Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 disk > selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > > > ? Make sure you only have one LTC active if a DL11-W and a KW11 > > are both in use. > > Only a DL11-W in this system. > > > ? Don't leave the disk packs or drives near the tanks. The > > squid have good aim and their ink isn't kind to electrical devices. > > Ah, haven?t checked that one yet. I will carefully check my basement > for squid! > > --FritzM. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:42:10 -0600 > From: drlegendre <drlegendre at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo > Message-ID: > < > CAFjrmd4Y27od8rxFBHcszAV4=KANscJyuVq31mn6ckE7AQ+wjg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust for > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, > looking > for a home? > > Thanks in advance. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 22:02:21 -0500 (EST) > From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net > To: drlegendre <drlegendre at gmail.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo > Message-ID: <2039907214.341781.1546743741252 at email.ionos.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > On January 5, 2019 at 8:42 PM drlegendre via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust > > for > > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, > > looking > > for a home? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > I have a couple of 386sx motherboards with I think 1MB ram. I > thought I had a full 386 board with 8MB ram but I can't seem to find > it. Would one of those work for you? > > Will > > > "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels > > > "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --? > https://isocpp.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 03:03:29 +0000 (UTC) > From: ED SHARPE <couryhouse at aol.com> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: SMECC on the hunt for Monarch hp 150 poster do U > have one? > or a hi res clean scan? > Message-ID: <2056564350.13640687.1546743809848 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Howdy? from the? ?desert? lands in Arizona!Early in the? HP DOS? PC? > campaign? there was the? monarch? butterfly poster used to advertise? > HP? 150 ... seeking to recreate? a duplicate? in a? corner of? the? > room our? little? hp 150? computer exchange inc? ?demo desk? area? > .... the? poster ( or a? print of it... )? ?is? needed! > What? great? fun we are? having...? got a? 2886a? (need paper feeder? > and receiver? little? flap? things that hung off? printer though)and > the? stake of? all the? '150' blue? box? ?software'? to have there > too? and other things? ? for the era...any other early poster > material? good? too... the monarch? one is? what? sticks in my? > brain... > OK? also the? HP Portable 110? came? along too... interested in Ad? > material for? it... have most of the hardware? to? look? ?interesting > I? think. > THANKS IN ADVANCE? ED SHARPE? ARCHIVIST FOR SMECC > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:55:49 -0800 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: <9fc4ea8d-2b99-5682-4bef-a25799b4cfd1 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > On 1/5/19 2:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all, > > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? > > Nope. This card expects pre common command set disks with non- > embedded > scsi adapters. > > In a bad old days, you had to configure the scsi drive adapters > with disk geometry before you could use them, and the UC04 > does that for adapters like the Adaptec 4000. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 20:41:21 -0800 > From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: uc04 + scsi2sd ? > Message-ID: <97bc8c2b-9143-3d42-4c22-ec58452b17a3 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > On 1/5/2019 7:55 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/5/19 2:46 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > > Hey all, > > > Anyone know whether the Emulex UC04 works with the sd2scsi? > > Nope. This card expects pre common command set disks with non- > > embedded > > scsi adapters. > > > > In a bad old days, you had to configure the scsi drive adapters > > with disk geometry before you could use them, and the UC04 > > does that for adapters like the Adaptec 4000. > > > Al's right; I'll add two things: > > 1) I've used a SCSI2SD in other systems that formerly used an > Adaptec > 4000/5000 controller with some success, but I was only ever able to > get > a single drive to work at a time; you may have similar luck with the > SCSI2SD if you configure it just right. > > 2) The SCSI2SD does currently have support for emulating some of > these > early controllers/bridges, but the Adaptecs aren't on the list yet > -- > however the SCSI2SD's creator has been open to feature requests in > the > past, and might be able to add support, and documentation for the > Adaptect boards is readily available.? (And the SCSI2SD firmware's > open > as well, so you can hack it in yourself if you have the time, etc.) > > - Josh > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 05:17:50 +0000 > From: Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> > To: Fritz Mueller <fritzm at fritzm.org>, "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: > < > CAHkUCCzgCmUGP4fD9aKTtNGVfqWahVRxWgHAVSAiu3FHU2J-8g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 12:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ? Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be > > > booted of from DK4. > > > > Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 > > disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > > No. One difference between the RK11-C and RK11-D is how it does drive > selects. > The RK11-C has 4 select lines on each cable, one is asserted at a > time. The RK11-D > has a 3 bit binary selection. There's a decoder in the RK05 (on the > G740 I think) that > is enabled when the drive is connected to an RK11-D. The RK03 is 1- > of-4 select > only which is why it works on an RK11-C and not on an RK11-D. > > So on the first drive connector of the RK11-C you get selects 0..3. > On > the second > cable you get 4..7. The drive is always jumpered for 0,1,2,3. If it's > jumpered as drive > 0 and you connect it to the first connector it's DK0. If it's > jumpered > as drive 0 and > you connect it to the second connector it's DK4. > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 23:37:19 -0600 > From: Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> > To: Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, Fritz Mueller > <fritzm at fritzm.org> > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <0381aa1f-bb09-17c7-490f-ed8247779015 at ieee.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 1/5/19 11:17 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 12:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > ? Try using the drive on the other bus if RSTS can be > > > > booted of from DK4. > > > Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 > > > disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > > No. One difference between the RK11-C and RK11-D is how it does > > drive selects. > > The RK11-C has 4 select lines on each cable, one is asserted at a > > time. The RK11-D > > has a 3 bit binary selection. There's a decoder in the RK05 (on the > > G740 I think) that > > is enabled when the drive is connected to an RK11-D. The RK03 is 1- > > of-4 select > > only which is why it works on an RK11-C and not on an RK11-D. > > > > So on the first drive connector of the RK11-C you get selects 0..3. > > On > > the second > > cable you get 4..7. The drive is always jumpered for 0,1,2,3. If > > it's > > jumpered as drive > > 0 and you connect it to the first connector it's DK0. If it's > > jumpered > > as drive 0 and > > you connect it to the second connector it's DK4. > > > > -tony > > I have used a Diablo drive with 1 of 4 selection on a third party > RKV11 > controller which was 3 bit binary. > It only worked as DK1, DK2 or DK4 for obvious reasons. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:40:10 -0800 > From: Curious Marc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> > To: "Jeffrey S. Worley" <technoid6502 at gmail.com>, "General > Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB > Message-ID: <1B9BC890-8E94-4184-A6F8-6AAD35F5F924 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Interconnects at 28Gb/s/lane have been out for a while now, supported > by quite a few chips. 56Gb/s PAM4 is around the corner, and we run > 100Gb/s in the lab right now. Just sayin? ;-). That said, we throw in > about every equalization trick we know of, PCB materials are getting > quite exotic and connectors are pretty interesting. We have to hand > hold our customers to design their interconnect traces and connector > breakouts. And you can?t go too far, with increasing reliance on > micro-twinax or on-board optics for longer distances and backplanes. > Marc > > > On Jan 4, 2019, at 11:02 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Apropos of nothing, I've been confuse for some time regarding > > maximum > > clock rates for local bus. > > > > My admittedly old information, which comes from the 3rd ed. of > > "High > > Performance Computer Architecture", a course I audited, indicates a > > maximum speed on the order of 1ghz for very very short trace > > lengths. > > > > Late model computers boast multi-hundred to multi gigahertz > > fsb's. Am > > I wrong in thinking this is an aggregate of several serial lines > > running at 1 to 200mhz? No straight answer has presented on > > searches > > online. > > > > So here's the question. Is maximum fsb on standard, non-optical > > bus > > still limited to a maximum of a couple of hundred megahertz, or did > > something happen in the last decade or two that changed things > > dramatically? I understand, at least think I do, that these > > ridiculously high frequency claims would not survive capacitance > > issues > > and RFI issues. When my brother claimed a 3.2ghz bus speed for his > > machine I just told him that was wrong, impossible for practical > > purposes, that it had to be an aggregate figure, a 'Pentium rating' > > sort of number rather than the actual clock speed. I envision > > switching bus tech akin to present networking, paralleled to > > sidestep > > the limit while keeping pin and trace counts low.....? Something > > like > > the PCIe 'lane' scheme in present use? This is surmise based on my > > own > > experience. > > > > When I was current, the way out of this limitation was fiber-optics > > for > > the bus. This was used in supercomputing and allowed interconnects > > of > > longer length at ridiculous speeds. > > > > Thanks for allowing me to entertain this question. Though it is > > not > > specifically a classic computer question, it does relate to > > development > > and history. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Technoid Mutant (Jeff Worley) > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:45:39 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller <fritzm at fritzm.org> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <52B95127-1712-4E7E-AF23-879C42FD7F1D at fritzm.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 9:17 PM, Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 12:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > > > > > Easy enough experiment to try; would need to re-jumper the G740 > > > disk selection flip chip in the RK11-C too, I guess? > > > > No. One difference between the RK11-C and RK11-D is how it does > > drive selects. > > ... The drive is always jumpered for 0,1,2,3. > > Hi Tony, > > I?m speaking of the G740 at C13 on the RK11-C backplane, appearing on > sheet RK11-C-06 in the engineering drawings and described in the last > paragraph of section 3.2.5 in the RK11-C manual? > > On my RK11-C, this is jumpered to enable only drives 0 and 1; all > other jumpers are unpopulated. > > --FritzM. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 05:51:18 +0000 > From: Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> > To: Fritz Mueller <fritzm at fritzm.org>, "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: > < > CAHkUCCwiheajcd31QFD6YMEQVVDk8qM98arTz9RTqy5pPMCmDA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 5:45 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I?m speaking of the G740 at C13 on the RK11-C backplane, appearing > > on sheet RK11-C-06 in the engineering drawings and described in the > > last paragraph of section 3.2.5 in the RK11-C manual? > > > > On my RK11-C, this is jumpered to enable only drives 0 and 1; all > > other jumpers are unpopulated. > > Ooops... > > Yes, you do have to fit the jumper there. Actually, is there a good > reason not to fit all > jumpers on that board? > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 21:58:48 -0800 > From: Fritz Mueller <fritzm at fritzm.org> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem > Message-ID: <AE581820-081C-44E4-A543-406FC31FB533 at fritzm.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > On Jan 5, 2019, at 9:51 PM, Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > Actually, is there a good reason not to fit all jumpers on that > > board? > > Looking at it, I was just wondering the same thing! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 01:53:34 -0500 > From: devin davison <lyokoboy0 at gmail.com> > To: wrcooke at wrcooke.net, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: ISO - 386 or 486 system or cplt mobo > Message-ID: > < > CAOpB=UM9O-iJHzRjfgo805+qJ52OzjPPGmH1O=cyH9yq380PmQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I have a stockpile of them. Will get you pictures tomorrow. > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 11:59 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > On January 5, 2019 at 8:42 PM drlegendre via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > I'm interested in finding a 386 or slow 486 machine or moboj ust > > > for > > > playing DOS games. Does anyone have such a thing sitting around, > > > looking > > > for a home? > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > I have a couple of 386sx motherboards with I think 1MB ram. I > > thought I > > had a full 386 board with 8MB ram but I can't seem to find > > it. Would one > > of those work for you? > > > > Will > > > > > > "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels > > > > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- > > https://isocpp.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 09:08:03 -0500 > From: Bob Smith <bobsmithofd at gmail.com> > To: Dr Iain Maoileoin <iain at csp-partnership.co.uk>, "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? > HELP > Message-ID: > < > CAHtNYbW0GBXV+UPRCwGMZzCnvMNpLCiF5LkG6wez_65w3YxMSQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > https://hapoc2015.sciencesconf.org/file/176702 > > gives a Little more history on Soviet copies of computers. > The timing of the production of the Capatob 2 seems to make it a > PDP8/L clone, not an M. What is called the 8 is really based on the > 5, > used 6-bit bytes, 12 bit words, and was Octal based - memory was the > most expensive part of the system at least through the early 70s, and > thus 12 bit words for double precision, 24bits, was a reasonable > approach for a scientific computer. > bb > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 1:37 PM Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Off topic, but looking for help and/or wisdom. > > > > If you visit https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov < > > https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/saratov>/ < > > https://www.scotnet.co.uk/iain/> you will see some photos and wire- > > lists of work that I have started on the front panel of a Capatob > > 2. > > > > I plan to get the switches and lights running on a blinkenbone > > board with a PDP8 emulation behind it. (I already have an PDP11/70 > > front-panel running on the same infrastructure) > > > > I have been struggling for over a year to get much info about this > > saratov computer (circuit diagrams etc). So I have started the > > reverse engineering on the panel. > > > > Does anybody know anything about this computer? online or offline > > it would be much appreciated. > > > > Iain > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 10:42:15 -0700 > From: Grant Taylor <cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: off topic - capatob - saratov2 computer Russsian pdp8? > HELP > Message-ID: > < > aec7d8ba-4356-8f6f-9bfe-16ac4932cbc0 at spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 1/6/19 7:08 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > What is called the 8 is really based on the 5, used 6-bit bytes, 12 > > bit > > words, and was Octal based > > Is "byte" the correct term for 6-bits? I thought a "byte" had > always > been 8-bits. But I started paying attention in the '90s, so I missed > a lot. > > I would have blindly substituted "word" in place of "byte" except > for > the fact that you subsequently say "12-bit words". I don't know if > "words" is parallel on purpose, as in representing a quantity of two > 6-bit word. > > Will someone please explain what I'm missing that transpired before > I > started paying attention in the '90s? > > >

5 years, 11 months

ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)))

by couryhouse＠aol.com

have no idea but do have a feeling it might have been like a 'tiny fortran' Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, January 4, 2019 Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: On Sat, 5 Jan 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > ELTRAN THE COMPILER > ANY DOCS? ANY ONE? USED IT? > (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)) Was? it? one? of the? ones based? on Valtrep? http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2017-March/033410.html -- Grumpy Ol' Fred? ? ??? ??? cisin at xenosoft.com

5 years, 11 months

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test-drb January 2019