On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:25:29 -0500, Geoffrey Oltmans
<oltmansg at gmail.com> wrote:
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:25:29 -0500
> From: Geoffrey Oltmans<oltmansg at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: My Atari 1040ST(FM) on YouTube
> <CABVr2Pti9OwUB_De4uyHZGh7vtLLjCqiHa3Zo6=obYEgrnQfoA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> All of the other examples so far I think (with the exception of the QL and
> Apple IIc) are not quite as bad as the ST from the standpoint that they
> don't really LOOK like "real" keyboards, whereas the ST's does, and
> therefore you are even more disappointed with how bad it is.
Actually, it wasn't that bad. The feel was horrible, but it was quite
reliable. I used mine as a freelance translator to translate several
fairly large books, as well as keeping my accounts on it and letting the
kids play games on it. I never had any problems with the keyboard.
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:38:42 -0700, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
> Message: 8 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:38:42 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert
> <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Reverse engineering
> flamefest, was: HP 9830A always turns on with blank display
> Message-ID: <FA9FACC2-AD02-4259-81B0-7E8FEE3EA894 at cs.ubc.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
> On 2013 Jul 28, at 10:37 AM, MikeS wrote:
>> >----- Original Message -----
>>> >>Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 09:25:44 +0200
>>> >>From: Jonas Otter<jonas at otter.se>
>>> >>How about y'all stopping flogging this by now very dead horse?
>>> >>If you don't want to fight via private email, then please don't do
>>> >>it in
>>> >>public either. You are only showing the rest of the world how rude
>>> >>can be and how clever you think you are.
>>> >>I am not addressing this to anyone in particular, because I do not
>>> >>to get involved, only to get you to stop making d**ks of
>>> >>yourselves in
> Jonas, when you call people rude, and call them names, in public,
> while claiming neutrality, and without account for what's going on,
> you just create another division and you become exactly what you
Please explain where I was calling somebody names.
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On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Ah, but how do you feel about the REPLACEMENT keyboards that RS (coco),
> IBM (Jr), and maybe even Commodore (Pet) replaced the Chiclets with?
> (mine were replcaced FREE by RS and IBM!)
> Answer CAREFULLY. How much is riding on the SHAPE of the keys, and how
> much on the underlying mechanism/feel?
That is a hard thing to determine. I'd say that shape and feel are both
important, as the shape of the keys can enhance speed and accuracy almost
as much as having a good mechanism.
> When IBM was planning the Jr, they asked [focus groups] what they wanted.
> People said that they wanted a "home" version of the PC, at half the
> price. They EXPLICITLY said that they WOULD be willing to cut corners on
> the keyboard!, be limited to single drive, less RAM, etc. But, when the
> Jr. came out, IBM found out that there is a gap between what is asked for
> and what is demanded. The purchasers bought the half-price Junior, and
> then were irate that they were unable to expand it all of the way to the
> equivalent of their office PC.
Indeed. I kind of like the IR keyboard and it seems to work better than
what the press let on, but it does seem to eat batteries (at least the
chicklet one, not sure about the enhanced keyboard). I wouldn't want to
type a paper with it for sure. Still, I imagine this is probably a matter
of asking the right questions for a market survey. What, if any, detail was
the focus group privy to when the compromises to the keyboard were asked
about? Did they follow up afterwards? Seems like they probably didn't and
just ran with it.
The PCjr is kind of a neat machine in its own right, but I have to think
that it is caught between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, IBM wanted
to capture a chunk of the emerging home computer market, but on the other
hand not cannibalize sales from the more expensive (and more expandable)
IBM PC. It obviously had a couple of things going for it over the PC
(graphics and sound capability), but it was also more or less priced
basically smack-dab between the Commodore and Atari 8-bit offerings and the
IBM PC itself. In a practical sense the memory limitation made it about as
powerful as a C-64 or Atari 8-bit machine when accounting for tradeoffs in
custom chip capabilities vs a less powerful CPU in the case of the other
8-bit rivals. Most of the design compromises for it vs the PC seem
rational, with the exception of using BERG connectors for everything, which
is nonsensical to me. Well, that and the fact that IBM didn't offer
upgrades for a full 640kB RAM. I'm sure that the latter would have made it
a bit more palatable to people since the vast majority of PCs weren't sold
with 64kB ( or 128kB for that matter). From what I can tell, the DMA
restriction isn't too much of a problem in practical use, with the
exception of the serial port), so with just the additional memory it
probably would have enjoyed fairly good software compatibility with its big
Anyone on this list remember or ever used VisualAge Generator? I understand it was "replaced" with EGL, a completely unrelated system.
For the historically curious though, was a trial ever produced around the 4.5 version timeframe?
----- Original Message -----
> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 09:25:44 +0200
> From: Jonas Otter <jonas at otter.se>
> How about y'all stopping flogging this by now very dead horse?
> If you don't want to fight via private email, then please don't do it in
> public either. You are only showing the rest of the world how rude you
> can be and how clever you think you are.
> I am not addressing this to anyone in particular, because I do not want
> to get involved, only to get you to stop making d**ks of yourselves in
> By all means say what is wrong or right in someone's schematic, but
> please keep the personal attacks out of it.
OK, Tony seems to push the buttons of a few people on here who don't get his
particular brand of humour/irony and are also not willing to consider his
circumstances and cut him any slack, but IMO this particular personal attack
is almost completely unjustified. I'm actually quite surprised since it
seems out of character for my left-coast fellow Canuck, for whom I've always
had a great deal of respect until this childish rant/personal attack; I hope