On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> Ahh, if the KE11-B will run in an 11/20, then I'll be hanging onto one
> of them, as I'm working on getting an 11/20.
It will work in pretty much everything, AFAIK, since it's a peripheral
not a "CPU extension". The KE11-A is functionally identical but
built on the backplane peripheral model of the 11/20 and rare enough
that I never figured on running across one I could get. I know that
there's an occasional KE11-B running around since it's a single card.
> I'd love to see v1 UNIX running on real iron.
Me too. It's no big shake to run it on a real PDP-11 - as long
as you have a KE11 of some kind in there _and_ you have
matching peripherals for the 1972-era code. I haven't tried
it, but I would be surprised to learn that you couldn't get
v1 UNIX working on an 11/04 (peripheral issues aside).
What I really want to do (and it sounds like you do too) is
to run v1 UNIX not just on real iron, but the on the closest
approximate I can manage of what was used in 1972.
Step one is to get the 11/20 doing *anything*. Step two
is to get the 11/20 running with RK05s. Then I can start
to consider how I would either provide a register-compatible
swap device or how much coding changes I'd have to tackle
to get v1 code to use some _other_ swap device. Once I
have a plan for how to provide swap, _then_ it's worth
looking in all seriousness for a KE-11.
Many steps to go before I have anything to purchase. Lots
to fix and play with.
-ethan
At 01:27 AM 2/9/2013, Charles wrote:
>I tried this program tonight, after making up a new ribbon cable that
>had some mechanical damage which I was *hoping* would fix things :P
>
>A very interesting result - when I hit run, BOTH drives started
>seeking and eventually Drive 1 faults. If I unload one of the drives,
>the other one seeks when the test program is run. Doesn't matter if
>unit 0 or 1 is the active drive!
>
>Time to start chasing a hardware (drive select) problem I guess...
>sigh. Nothing like 30-40 year old hardware...
That's what I was worried about. You're lucky that it hasn't scrambled
the OS on your drives. :)
>-Charles
>
>ps I think your "assembly listing" has a bug, at 0221 shouldn't that
>read JMP 0204?
Yup. The original for this (from the RL01/02 pocket service guide)
didn't have anything to do a drive select so I added it in. That
shifted everything, leading to all the offsets shifting. I missed
fixing the comment there, but jmp to 0204 is correct.
-Rick
I'm pulling my hair out... I disconnected the 2nd drive and now just
have one RL02 attached to my RL8A, with a terminator.
A bit of background - I could not find a cable that goes from the 40
pin header on the controller card to the first drive, so I made one
out of ribbon cable and IDC headers, removing the first external
connector and just using headers as it does inside the drive. Now I'm
beginning to wonder if the original cable has a "twist" somewhere in
the drive selects like the old PC floppy cables, because...
Although I can set and reset the two drive select bits on the RL8A,
and the 75113 line drivers also change state appropriately, those
signals are not reaching the correct place on the logic board inside
the RL02! At the 75107 line receivers (E57), those two bits are always
logic 00, i.e. drive 0. So the drive won't select at all unless I put
the Unit 0 plug in, at which point it effectively ignores the drive
select bits and always selects regardless of the state of those two
bits at the controller. Confirming that the drive select lines are dead.
The only thing between the line drivers and receivers is 6' of ribbon
cable. It leaves the RL8A on J1 header pins TT, SS, RR, PP and is
supposed to enter the RL02 logic board on J12 header pins C, D, E, F
which accounts for the cable being reversed. Just in case I even tried
flipping the header connector around and of course the drive won't
load or work at all and the Fault light stays on, so I know I have it
facing the right way. Unless it's possible to make a cable upside down
and backwards, or some such?
This setup DID previously run OS/8, ADVENT, FOCAL, whatever was on the
pack, but only using one of the RL02's (I don't think I was ever able
to access the other drive).
I can't think of anything that could "lose" the drive select lines
except a defective cable (will continuity-check tomorrow, even though
I made a new one by copying the old one that used to work) or else the
correct cable (BC80J-20) is not a straight-through pin for pin
connection, in which case I have to have one.
Just to further confuse things, I have the identical two-drive setup
with homemade controller-to-drive cable on my 11/23+ and RLV11 card,
and it works perfectly. So now I'm just going in circles... that's
enough for tonight!
> Not to mention that CI doesn't support a bus
> topology, only a star. And a CI network is limited to a 90m radius,
> while Ethernet was designed for a maximum station separation of 2.5Km.
> So please remind me again just exactly what is so similar between CI and
> Ethernet?
I thought a CI coupler was mostly a transformer. If so, would a CI network
not behave much like a bus, even if it didn't look like one? A lot more like
a bus I would have thought than modern ethernet which neither looks nor
behaves like a bus.
(Not that I'm worried about whether CI is like Ethernet or not...)
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
Another curator and I went to San Diego on Thursday and finished sorting the collection
for Deborah. There are several S-100 systems, terminals, a metal case Commodore PET,
Tek 4012, and many, many S-100 boards that were out of CHM's collecting scope that are available.
We ended up taking about 6 pallets of stuff, most of the documentation and software and a few
systems that we didn't already have in the colleciton.
If you forward your email adr to me I will forward it on to her. We suggested eBaying them, but there may be too many of
them to deal with that way. She probably will be reluctant to ship anything large.
Hi,
Looking for HD's for a friend of mine who does repair work on
vintage systems and his supply of HD's has dried up so I'm working out a
trade with him. Looking for:
3.5" SCSI HD's in small sizes (40, 80, 120MB sizes)
2.5" IDE HD's in small sizes (40, 80, 120MB sizes)
Looking for around 20 of each type, must be working/tested
condition... Would either buy them for $5 ea or work out a trade,
email me off-list if you have some or can point me to someone who may
have them, thanks.
Curt
At 01:27 AM 2/9/2013, Charles wrote:
>I tried this program tonight, after making up a new ribbon cable that
>had some mechanical damage which I was *hoping* would fix things :P
>
>A very interesting result - when I hit run, BOTH drives started
>seeking and eventually Drive 1 faults. If I unload one of the drives,
>the other one seeks when the test program is run. Doesn't matter if
>unit 0 or 1 is the active drive!
>
>Time to start chasing a hardware (drive select) problem I guess...
>sigh. Nothing like 30-40 year old hardware...
That's what I was worried about. You're lucky that it hasn't scrambled
the OS on your drives. :)
>-Charles
>
>ps I think your "assembly listing" has a bug, at 0221 shouldn't that
>read JMP 0204?
Yup. The original for this (from the RL01/02 pocket service guide)
didn't have anything to do a drive select so I added it in. That
shifted everything, leading to all the offsets shifting. I missed
fixing the comment there, but jmp to 0204 is correct.
-Rick
I'm pulling my hair out... I disconnected the 2nd drive and now just
have one RL02 attached to my RL8A, with a terminator.
A bit of background - I could not find a cable that goes from the 40
pin header on the controller card to the first drive, so I made one
out of ribbon cable and IDC headers, removing the first external
connector and just using headers as it does inside the drive. Now I'm
beginning to wonder if the original cable has a "twist" somewhere in
the drive selects like the old PC floppy cables, because...
Although I can set and reset the two drive select bits on the RL8A,
and the 75113 line drivers also change state appropriately, those
signals are not reaching the correct place on the logic board inside
the RL02! At the 75107 line receivers (E57), those two bits are always
logic 00, i.e. drive 0. So the drive won't select at all unless I put
the Unit 0 plug in, at which point it effectively ignores the drive
select bits and always selects regardless of the state of those two
bits at the controller. Confirming that the drive select lines are dead.
The only thing between the line drivers and receivers is 6' of ribbon
cable. It leaves the RL8A on J1 header pins TT, SS, RR, PP and is
supposed to enter the RL02 logic board on J12 header pins C, D, E, F
which accounts for the cable being reversed. Just in case I even tried
flipping the header connector around and of course the drive won't
load or work at all and the Fault light stays on, so I know I have it
facing the right way. Unless it's possible to make a cable upside down
and backwards, or some such?
This setup DID previously run OS/8, ADVENT, FOCAL, whatever was on the
pack, but only using one of the RL02's (I don't think I was ever able
to access the other drive).
I can't think of anything that could "lose" the drive select lines
except a defective cable (will continuity-check tomorrow, even though
I made a new one by copying the old one that used to work) or else the
correct cable (BC80J-20) is not a straight-through pin for pin
connection, in which case I have to have one.
Just to further confuse things, I have the identical two-drive setup
with homemade controller-to-drive cable on my 11/23+ and RLV11 card,
and it works perfectly. So now I'm just going in circles... that's
enough for tonight!
EDIT: Additional note: When the two-drive system was running OS/8, I
had the ribbon cable going to the bottom drive in the rack which had
Unit 1 plug, then the proper BC20J cable from there to the top drive
with Unit 0 plug. Makes me wonder anew if there is something non-
obvious about the connections of the drive select lines within the DEC
cables...
Just one last thing before I utterly let this go (I should think I'm entitled after that lying diatribe) - when o God when will he quit with those goofy cartoons!
------------------------------
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 9:28 AM PST Liam Proven wrote:
>On 9 February 2013 16:44, Doc <doc at vaxen.net> wrote:
>> On 2/8/13 8:36 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>>
>> He doesn't believe in her. The world was made in 6 days by a magic
>> sky-pixie. He thinks all those nasty fossil things were laid down in
>> the great flood and humans haven't evolved, they were made by the same
>> invisible big-old-fairy-with-a-white-beard, just as they are today.
>>
>> You're wasting your time with this chap; he is both stupid and very
>> ignorant, a terrible combination. I mean, come on, he's too dim to
>> learn how to quote in an email!
>>
>>
>>
>> Why, really, do you believe your vitriol is any less offensive than his?
>
>I don't.
>
>But see, it's a bit like this cartoon:
>http://www.atheistmemebase.com/2012/03/30/quit-persecuting-us/
>
>(For the WWW impaired: a single figure says "god probably doesn't
>exist". 50 identical figures shout "stop persecuting us!")
>
>There are many billions of religious people in the world. *All* of
>their beliefs are based on superstition and myth; that is the nature
>of religion. None of it can be demonstrated; if it could be, it would
>not require faith and it would no longer be religion.
>
>The religious run most countries; their houses of worship line the
>streets of every city. You cannot be a Girl Guide or a Boy Scout
>without making obeisance to their invisible friends. In many
>countries, mine included, you cannot sing the national anthem without
>invoking some religion's mythical deity.
>
>But the minority of us who are free of this kind of mental infection
>and who actually base our worldview on facts and reason just
>occasionally open our mouths and point out that the claims of the
>religious are ridiculous, that when held up to the light of day, they
>are self-evident nonsense, *we* are the ones who get attacked for
>oppression.
>
>No. I am not oppressing anyone.
>
>The christians, muslims, jews and so on oppress billions. Don't accuse
>me. If they still had the power they once had, they would torture me
>to death. All I do is point out that their belief is a
>self-inconsistent travesty. They killed millions in the name of their
>illusory magic sky-pixie. People are still killed daily over it.
>
>This man believes in a series of ridiculous fairy-stories that no
>unbrainwashed person would believe. He has personally attacked me on
>this mailing-list for not sharing his delusions. He has personally
>emailed me to mock my reasoned, evidence-based, factual, materialistic
>outlook and to try to infect me with his sick twisted death-cult. His
>death-cult which involves images of pain and death as its leitmotif;
>adherents of which adorn themselves with little effigied of a dying
>man, or with pictures of an instrument of torture.
>
>It is sick, horrible, and wrong. It distorts minds, destroys lives,
>robs people of their freedom to express their sexuality, it denies gay
>people the same rights as straights, it denies women reproductive
>freedom. Related sects routinely mutilate the genitals of infants.
>
>They are all abhorrent, disgusting cults and the sooner the world is
>rid of them the better.
>
>And no, I will not shut up about it, and no, I am not ashamed of it,
>and if I my stating these blatant and self-evident truths offends
>people, well, *good.* I am offended by their superstition and what it
>makes them do. It made me think. Perhaps being offended will make them
>think, too.
>
>Being offended never hurt or injured anyone. Being offended is good
>for you. It challenges you, makes you question things.
>
>> I'm not Christian (my faith is neither up for discussion not relevant here
>> AT ALL), but your hatred and your condescension toward people of a certain
>> faith just reek of the same narrow-mindedness of which you accuse them.
>
>I hate all faiths, pretty much equally. Some are more evil than
>others, such as scientology or the jehovah's witnesses or the
>christ-scientists - religions which routinely kill children by denying
>them medical treatment.
>
>But they are all mental infections, viral memes that destroy minds and lives.
>
>It's just that some come up more often than others. I don't pick 'em
>out. They self-select.
>
>--
>Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
>Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
>MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
>Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
>
THe lack of response on this undoubtedly means that its best place is in
the rag bag, I suppose. It's good cotton and will make a fine rag with
which to wax my car.
Oh well, I tried. Must have been an unmemorable release.
--Chuck
------------------------------
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 11:42 AM PST Bill Sudbrink wrote:
>Fred Cisin wrote:
>>
>> I blame NIXON
>>
>
>I shouldn't really do this but it's too good to pass...
>
>It's really Taft's fault.
Look do your research. The problem can readily be traced back to Henry VIII. But Tutankahmen really REALLY started it all. And thanks for the diversion Bill. I was all geared up to jump on Freddy's response. But of course he's right in that dead presidents are far more to blame then any living ones.
I tried this program tonight, after making up a new ribbon cable that
had some mechanical damage which I was *hoping* would fix things :P
A very interesting result - when I hit run, BOTH drives started
seeking and eventually Drive 1 faults. If I unload one of the drives,
the other one seeks when the test program is run. Doesn't matter if
unit 0 or 1 is the active drive!
Time to start chasing a hardware (drive select) problem I guess...
sigh. Nothing like 30-40 year old hardware...
-Charles
ps I think your "assembly listing" has a bug, at 0221 shouldn't that
read JMP 0204?
On Feb 6, 2013, at 5:21 AM, Rick Murphy wrote:
> Here's something you can try to verify that your disks are properly
> hooked up. It's the oscillating seek toggle-in for the PDP-8
> modified to allow the unit to be selected. You can toggle it in via
> ODT and let it fly - it'll seek the drive back and forth. If this
> works on drive 1, then you've got an OS/8 driver that isn't sending
> out the select properly.
>
> 0200 7201 CAF (Reset)
> 0201 1230 TAD 0230 - Get drive select
> 0202 6604 Load command register b - select drive
> 0203 1231 Loop: TAD 0231 - get number of cylinders to seek
> 0204 4222 JMS 0222 - Wait for ready
> 0205 3226 DCA 0226 - Store cylinder number
> 0206 1226 ISZ 0226 - Increment it
> 0207 6603 Load command register A - seek
> 0210 7325 Seek command (0003)
> 0211 6604 Load command register B
> 0212 4222 JMS 0222 - Wait for ready
> 0213 7307 Read header command (0004)
> 0214 6604
> 0215 1226 TAD 0226 - Get seek value
> 0216 1227 Change direction
> 0217 7500 SZA CLA
> 0220 5203 JMP 0203 - Back to start
> 0221 5204 JMP 0205 - Loop
>
> 0222 0000 Wait subroutine
> 0223 6601 RLSD - skip if done
> 0224 5223 JMP .-1
> 0225 5622 JMP I 0221
>
> 0226 0000 Temp
> 0227 4000 Constant
> 0230 0100 Drive one
> 0231 0200 Number of cylinders to seek
>
