Article from ITWorld:
Computing fossils: Old tech holding on for dear life
Some ancient technology is still useful -- and some just won't die
http://www.itworld.com/hardware/270936/living-computing-fossils-old-tech-ho…
May 08, 2012, 7:27 AM
By Josh Fruhlinger, ITworld
Consider the abacus. Developed perhaps as long as 4,500 years ago,
this handy gadget served the mathematical needs of merchants and
accountants until the development of mechanical calculating machines
in the 19th century. But the abacus hasn't been forgotten. Instead it
still lives on in niches -- for instance teaching preschoolers the
basics of counting.
There are a number of obsolete technologies and gadgets that have
persisted from slightly less ancient times right down to the current
day, though again in greatly diminished numbers and scope. A brief
tour through these technological fossils serves as a lesson on the
durability of items we sometimes think of as ephemeral.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
Hey all,
I'm trying to install BP2 on my SIMH system (need to fix my
9-track before it'll be worth trying on real iron). I'm
having some trouble with the install, though. I'm using the
2.7 tape found on trailing-edge's rsxdists FTP area, and I
can copy BP2RSX.CMD just fine. However, when I try to run
it and install, one of two things happens, depending on my
choices:
- If I select the prebuilt distribution, there are a number
of files missing, and it barfs after a number of errors.
- If I select non-prebuilt, it crashes with a "Reserved
inst execution" error; if I delete the .ENABLE QUIET at the
start of the indirect file, I see that this happens when it
tries to execute the DIALOG.TSK file it's just copied.
I'm not in the mood to actually run this through a debugger,
since I'm still somewhat unfamiliar with development on RSX.
Does anyone know if this is maybe a known dodgy tape image?
I can list the directories just fine with FLX, so I assume
it's not totally boned, but this is puzzling me (partly
because I'm a bit new to RSX and the like).
- Dave
>
> ...so, whadda we gots ?
>
Most bubble memory modules need a lot more special chips to operate. Intel
(72?? chips) and others made them.
If the 256 kByte appears as normal memory in the PC, it can't be real
bubbles. Bubble memory is not real random access per byte, it reads and
writes 'pages' of 128 bytes. For more info see:
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fjkraan/comp/pc5000/bubble.html
Fred Jan
Hi folks,
First I'd just like to say it's good to be back. I think I first joined
Classiccmp in 1998-ish, and I've been on-again off-again as time and
life has permitted participation in the hobby. Following a very long
time spent off the list, it's really good to finally be back. I've
missed this place a lot.
Now, for the meat...
Last year I was offered a PDP-11/35 by a friend who was cleaning out his
shed in preparation for a move back to the Bay Area. I haven't had
any PDP-11s in a long time (unfortunately!), so I jumped at the offer.
He moved it down here two weeks ago, and I picked it up.
It's seen better days, that's for sure. Time, the climate, mice, and
spiders all did some damage. On first sight I was scared there wouldn't
be anything salvageable. But I was in luck, the physical damage was
largely confined to the metal chassis, which is covered in surface rust
and dirt.
I've started to work on cleaning it up and restoring it, and I'm
documenting the process here:
http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html
I haven't done very much yet other than disassembly and a little surface
cleaning. My next priority will be to get the power supply out so I can
inspect it, clean it (if needed), and start testing it on my workbench.
Eventually I want to take care of the chassis by sandblasting it and
re-painting it. That will be a while, though.
Anyway, I hope I'll be able to bounce debugging questions off folks here
as I go along. And if anyone local to me (San Francisco Bay Area) would
be willing to lend a hand now and again, that would be fantastic. I may
need some help by the time I get around to applying power.
One downside to this is that it has rekindled my DEC-lust to levels not
seen since 2000. A real pity - over the years I've had tons (probably
literally) of DEC gear come and go through my collection, but I've kept
almost none of it due to lack of a permanent, owned home for it all.
But now that I'm settling down and I have some time again, I wish I'd
kept a lot of it. Such is life - you never really appreciate what you
have until it's gone :) At least it has all gone to other collectors,
and not to the scrappers!
-Seth
On Thu, 10 May 2012 10:40:08 -0400, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Jonas Otter<jonas at otter.se> wrote:
>> > On ?Wed, 9 May 2012 09:04:07 -0700, "Michael Holley"<swtpc6800 at comcast.net>
>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I was told the load from hard disk was page fault the swapped the desired
>>> >> data back into memory.
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
>>> >> On Behalf Of Tom Uban
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 5:33 AM
>>> >>
>>> >> One note on the PDP-11/03 booting the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 first
>>> >> loads the microcode into the VAX-11/780, thereby defining the machine's
>>> >> higher level of operating code, then a bootstrap to load from a particular
>>> >> hard disk or tape is run. On most PDP-11s, the microcode is stored in
>>> >> ROMs or is hard wired.
>>> >>
>> > VMS always loads a program by page faulting it into memory. That mechanism
>> > would AFAIK not work for booting, because the whole paging software, disk
>> > drivers etc would have to be loaded and initialized first. I don't remember
>> > offhand what it says in the VMS internals book about booting, but I could
>> > look it up.
> I, too, would have to look up details, but from what I remember about the 11/730
> (which has an 8085 as a front-end processor, not a PDP-11, but AFAIK, the
> general principles still apply), the FEP loads VMB.EXE from the console medium
> (RX01 for the 11/780, TU58 for the 11/730) into VAX main memory then kicks the
> processor into run mode.
>
> The 11/750 is a different beast - it has native boot ROMs and no FEP (there's
> an A-D selector switch, and there are several common arrangements of boot
> ROMs, including for third-party disk controllers)
>
> -ethan
According to the VMS Internals book, SYSBOOT (secondary bootstrap,
loaded after VMB) sets up the system page table. SYSBOOT loads EXE$INIT
and transfers control to it. EXE$INIT then does all the work of setting
up page tables, loading the paging subsystem and turning on memory
management.
So it appears that no paging in of anything can occur until at least
EXE$INIT has done its work.
/Jonas
On 2012-05-10 02.53, Seth Morabito<lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> First I'd just like to say it's good to be back. I think I first joined
> Classiccmp in 1998-ish, and I've been on-again off-again as time and
> life has permitted participation in the hobby. Following a very long
> time spent off the list, it's really good to finally be back. I've
> missed this place a lot.
[...]
Hi Seth. Long time no see indeed. Nice to hear you're getting some
usable computers again. ;-)
Johnny
On Wed, 9 May 2012 09:04:07 -0700, "Michael Holley"
<swtpc6800 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I was told the load from hard disk was page fault the swapped the desired
> data back into memory.
>
> Michael Holley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> On Behalf Of Tom Uban
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 5:33 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: More photos from VCF East 8
>
> One note on the PDP-11/03 booting the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 first loads
> the microcode into the VAX-11/780, thereby defining the machine's higher
> level of operating code, then a bootstrap to load from a particular hard
> disk or tape is run. On most PDP-11s, the microcode is stored in ROMs or is
> hard wired.
>
VMS always loads a program by page faulting it into memory. That
mechanism would AFAIK not work for booting, because the whole paging
software, disk drivers etc would have to be loaded and initialized
first. I don't remember offhand what it says in the VMS internals book
about booting, but I could look it up.
/Jonas
First I'm popping my head above the parapet for the first time in a while; ancient computer ventures *have* been proceeding at the Corestore, but less so in the past due to pressures of other activities. Hopefully I'll be much more active again starting now or soon!
I had a great time exhibiting the 'live restoration' of one of my pdp-15s at VCFeast; put some names to faces and had a good time all round. We got from a machine in bits which hadn't been powered on in 15 years, to an operational 11/05 front-end, and a -15 CPU which passed smoke-test and had a working console. We failed to make the most optimistic scenario of toggling in short programs due to a dodgy memory box power supply. Not bad for a few hours work. Next time I'll reserve more space, I won't arrive late, and I'll put up barriers and a 'do not feed the hacker' sign!
Couple of questions occurred to me as a result of this exercise. If something is just a bit mucky from years of service/storage, I'll give it a good clean but otherwise keep it as original as possible, with a patina of age. But if something is really ratty, especially with evidence of corrosion, I like to refurbish it completely to as near as-new shiny condition as possible, in every part and detail. With that in mind:
1. I have a good number of ratty old H960s with flaking paint & rust, mostly just in the bases. My projected 'refurbish' technique would involve drilling out the rivets holding the verticals to the bases and tops, shot-blasting/wire-brushing/otherwise-abrading all the old paint and rust back to smooth bare metal, and repainting them to give shiny like-new H960s. Does anyone know the exact size and spec of the rivets that hold an H960 together? Does anyone have any relatively shiny near-new H960s spare/for sale? (I know someone who might, I'm talking to him already!)
2. From time to time I've seen discussion of cleaning techniques for circuit boards here, specifically DEC modules, mostly the M-series flip-chip stuff. Was there ever any final conclusion as to the best way to cosmetically clean them? I've seen accounts of washing them in (?soapy?) water, rinsing, and leaving them in sun to dry. Is that really safe? Thoughts on other cleaning techniques?
3. When cosmetically refurbishing/repainting power supplies - H7420 etc. - does anyone have any good and valid suggestions for reproducing the DEC lettering and legends printed on the power supply? Photograph it and make some kind of transfer or sticker perhaps? How would one go about that?
Thanks folks
Mikehttp://www.corestore.org
I have three printheads for the HP 2932a dot matrix printer. They're free
for shipping.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
> I have some cards here I want to build a PDP11 from, at the current
> that's something around an KDF11-A CPU (22bit).
> Currently I have problems with some Dilog Controller, this is an DQ614
> that emulates 4 RL02 Drivers out of two 20MB MFM disks (Microcience HH725).
> I can install and successfully boot RT11SB.SYS and RT11FB.SYS but not
> RT11XM oder RT11XB. XXDP2.5 is working fine.
> Nowhere in the Dilog Documentation is something mentioned about 18 or 16
> bit addressing limitations of that controller, the pinout clearly has 22
> bits.
> (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/)
> I have an RQDX3 with 2 TEAC FD55-GFR-184 Floppies on this system too, I
> can boot RT11XM oder RT11XB (same files!) from there fine...
> If I try that from DL0 or DL1 I'll always get a trap to the ODT (0002),
> regardless if I use the Dilogs own Bootloader or that from an 11/53 or an
> 11/73 CPU.
Which version RT11XM?
If you boot RT11XM from the RQDX3, can you read/write (as a data disk) from DQ614 DL: ?
Tim.
