test-drb June 2007

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

224 participants
486 discussions

T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:22:25 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 6/20/07, Roger Ivie <rivie at ridgenet.net> wrote: >> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Allison wrote: >> > It's an easy cpu to interface and use... > >> >> However, it's not without its obnoxious bits. >> >> On the T-11, all writes are performed as read-modify-writes. > >Hmm... was that because of the needs of core memory, or was it just to >simplify some aspect of its internal design? It's part of the memory to memory design and the way intructions work. It's annying as micros go but ALL PDP-11s word that way and the T-11 is a PDP-11 in LSI. >RMW cycles are typically no problem with main memory, but I've seen >problems with them in a number of situations involving I/O, typically >involving "clever" peripherals that take a read of some register as a >trigger signal, but also with some 68000-family designs where you >weren't allowed to use instructions in your code which invoked RMW >cycles because they weren't interruptible (intentionally) and could >cause interrupt or instruction-restart problems. Yep the fix is easy. The read address is dirrent from the write address. So when the system doe sthe read before write or Read modify write it only touches the address register for thatread or write as desired. >At least with the 68000, RMW cycles were rarely done by real-world >code, and never accidentally. > >With a from-scratch T-11 SBC, one could, I'd expect, select I/O >peripherals that wouldn't be subject to side-effects (like clearing >status bits on reads), but that's a lot harder when you have a mandate >to use a particular vendor's chip and the chip tries to be clever. Easy, make the read and write different addresses. Just like PDP-11s do. Allison

17 years, 6 months

T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines, was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: T11 design WAS - Re: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K? > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:02:02 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >Even without 32-bit registers, there are tricks one may employ. >Twenty years ago, I had to implement a high-frequency filter in 286 >assembler as part of an auto-focus routine for a vision system. It >had to be fast, and the company would not pay for a 287 co-pro. The >normal technique for a simple 3x3 kernel is to sum up all the values >in a 3x3 area and divide by 9 to get the average value, then iterate >over the entire frame. Dividing by 9 is expensive for a 286. >Dividing by 8 isn't, and produced acceptable results. > >There are frequently tricks to avoid expensive math operations. Video >games use most of them. > >-ethan I've used the same idea for decimal to bin and bin to decimal as multiply or divide by 10 is costly in 8080/Z80/8048. It was far easier and faster to do a pair of shifts and one add and then do a shift again than a general multiply. The same is true for the reverse though then you do a subtract as needed. The code is linear and faster. It also works well for other non binary constants (3,5,6,7,9,10,11..). Doing it this way is the obvious specific unrolling of a general shift and add multiply routine. One of many tricks. Allison

17 years, 6 months

looking for a C16 in any condition

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

all I want is the case, so it don't have to work LOL. Actually it would make a curious project to get going even at that. I had heard (or actually read) there was a way of retrofitting (no pun intended hosers) a 6502 into a Commie 64. So why not the same, or a 6510 in a Commie 16. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/

17 years, 6 months

NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: RE: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > From: "Rod Smallwood" <RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk> > Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:59:36 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > >Hi > >Even though my main collection is DEC I'd love a Horizon with or with >out its wooden case. I wrote a lot of code on one in CBASIC back in the >70's > >They are somewhat rare in the UK to say the least. >In fact, the case is less of a problem than finding a system in the UK. >I have a retired friend with fully equipped wood working shop. > >Consulting my 1979 copies of Practical Computing (a UK magazine). >They were widely available in the UK. They must be out there somewhere. > >Rod Smallwood For the most part you can do the same on ANY S100 CP/M machine or even SBC (CBASIC stuff). The only thing that sperated the horizon from most S100s was the case had room for two full height 5.25 floppies and had two serial and a parallel port built on the the mother board. However any serial card that used 8251s coud be configured for ports 0/1,2/3 and be transparent. The rest is the NS* MDS controller (either SD or DD version) and that worked fine in most any Z80 S100 crate. What made the box notable was floppies in the crate rather than external box and only a LED (power on) on the front pannel. It was one of the early turnkey systems and became popular with applications/system integrators for that reason. The reason being it was now possible to sell a small(then) system that was powerful enough to be a complete office accounting system. It didn't hurt that the wood cover fit into office decor of the time. The wood disappeard when FCC started forcing RFI constraints. Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison >Sent: 19 June 2007 12:37 >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements > >> >>Subject: NorthStar Horizon Case Cover Replacements >> From: "Andrew Lynch" <lynchaj at yahoo.com> >> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:35:13 -0400 >> To: <cctech at classiccmp.org> >> >>Hi, >> >> >> >>I noticed in another cctech mailing list thread about the NorthStar >>Horizon case cover replacements. Recently, I procured a NorthStar >>Horizon which is missing its original wooden case cover and I was >>looking to either buy an original replacement or make a new one. >> >>I did not get a lot of responses to my queries on other forums for a >>replacement wooden case cover so I am considering fabricating my own. >>Apparently, it is common for Horizons to have lost their wooden covers >>over time for many reasons and others have done what I am considering. >> >>Has anyone built replacement NorthStar Horizon case covers before and >>would be willing to build more? They do not look terribly >>sophisticated to build provided you have access to a table saw and the >>proper bits. I was planning on just copying the dimensions from >>another Horizon wooden case cover I already have. >> >>If anyone has a spare NorthStar Horizon wooden case cover, has built >>new ones, or knows how to build a replacement, I would certainly like >>to hear from you. Please email me or post here. >> >>Thank you in advance. >> > >First it's a simple 3 sided thing. with a groove routed (or kerf cut) to >overlap the cover. The corners are mitered, grooved for biscuts and >glued. >I added two 1/2" cleats to the corners of mine when I reglued it. There >are 4 recessed hole for screws to secure it. Nominal material is 3/4 oak >ply though current dimension materials would work as well. There is >nothing special about it or difficulty in making it. > >The metal cover is simple but without a bending brake it's not easy to >do. > > >Allison > >

17 years, 6 months

Hyperion on eBay (Winnipeg)

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/early-vintage-bytec-dynalogic-HYPERION-LAPTOP-COMPUTER_… ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow

17 years, 6 months

Items for sale In Bel Air, Maryland

by mokuba＠gmail.com

I'm leaving for military service at the end of july, so I'm tidying up and getting rid of everything I don't need or want ... Atari Portfolio with the memory expander plus and smart parallel interface, one 64K memory card - if I can find it, there's a serial interface and another 64K card.... Boxed copy of "Harvard Graphics"... Solaris 8 box kit, Sun Ultra 5 w/o harddrive - IDE system , 270MHz UltraSPARC Iii with 384MB ram Palm IIIxe + cradle DEC 3000-300x with video cable and keyboard / mouse / adapter - OpenVMS was installed but it threw an MCHK error about the ram and I never had time to figure out which module it was ... One SparcClassic with original CPU and a scsi/ethernet sbus card - two modules of ram inside the machine both marked 4x36 ... No harddrive in the machine Numerous sun keyboards and a mouse or two ... About 4-5 apple ADB keyboards Lots of rolls of radioshack thermal fax paper 13W3 video extension cables VGA-> BNC video cables and short adapters SCSI and IDE cables out the wazoo Possibly three IPX's ... Need to check storage for them Tomorrow afternoon I should know if I still have the Indigo2 and O2 for sale, along with a powermac 8500 and a quadra 605 .. Email for information and offers please

17 years, 6 months

FW: Still LOADS of free computer stuff remaining

by jack.rubin＠ameritech.net

June 19, 2007 FREE FREE FREE Even though LOADS of stuff has already been picked up, only about HALF the volume has been given away so far. Here is just a SAMPLE of what remains - Scores of modems Lots of ASCII terminals (Mostly Televideo) Hundreds of floppy disk drives As many as 100 printers (Okidata, IBM, NEC, HP, Epson, C.Itoh, Anadex, ALPS, Star Micronics, AST). We may even have some line printers in another location. Laser, dot matrix, ink jet (as well as some supplies) THOUSANDS of dollars in printer repair parts. Repair manuals. More sheet feeders and printer add-on that you have liekly ever seen in one location. A couple of photocopiers Scores of Monitors: NTCS Composite, TTL, RGB, VGA, SVGA Back up, Stand by, and on line power supplies. Lots of PC parts: power supplies, etc. Tape drives and media Over a TON of computer software...much of it never opened! Oddball parts, supplies, cables, jumper boxes Manuals, documentation, driver disks by the dozens. Altos computers, software, cables. Lots of other stuff. This stuff will go to the first person who comes by and assures me that he will responsibly use the materials and that which cannot be used will be shared with others who could use it and the final remainder will be responsibly recycled. It would be a shame for this valuable information and these parts to be 'lost' as there are so many folks who still have vintage/obsolete computers who are crying for this stuff...and it is FREE for the taking and I will help you load it up! I estimate that the remaining volume would easily fill a 24' van type truck. The stuff is located southeast of Indianapolis and northwest of Cincinnati in Shelbyville, Indiana. This is about 100 miles >from Purdue, but don't count on anything remaining by the time the Vintage Computer Show at Purdue takes place. Call me at 317-716-8807 for pick up. It would be great if one party came by and loaded it all up. Tim Deaton No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 6/18/2007 3:02 PM

17 years, 6 months

FW: Open VMS Hobbyists Disc

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

Well spotted, it does have a .PCSA;1 extension. In the KIT directory is a file called ... Wait for it!! DEC-VAXVMS-TCPIP-V0501-15-1.PCSI;1 I'll read up on PRODUCT INSTALLATION Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: 20 June 2007 11:23 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: FW: Open VMS Hobbyists Disc At 09:05 PM 6/19/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > The above disk having arrived (new version 7.3) I managed to >install VMS on both VAXes with out any problem. >In order to install the other items first the disk has to be mounted. >Again no difficulties. I can list the directories and see their >contents. >@SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL invokes the installer, again normal. > >It then asks I'm satisified withthe backup of the system disk (Default >[YES]) >Next it wants the location of the distribution so I say >DKA100:[TCPIP_VAX051] Finally it needs the product code. So TCPIP051 to >that (they specify the >format) > >It then says it cant find the product. > > >Answers please! You can do it entirely from the command line: $ @sys$update:vmsinstal tcpip051 dka100:[tcpip_vax051.kit] The VMS distribution CDs usually have the savesets in the [.kit] subdirectory. If you don't see tcpip051.a in that directory, it's a PCSA install and you'll need to use PRODUCT INSTALL to install it. The release notes should provide pretty explicit instructions. -Rick

17 years, 6 months

AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: AMD2901s (was e: Inside old games machines,was: Re: Simulated CP/M-68K?) > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:30:47 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 6/19/07, woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: >> Providing the word length is a multiable of 4 bits that is. > >It sure would be "fun" to debug microcode issues with nine of those >puppies chained together. Ignoring race conditions 9 of them are no harder than one. The nasty is propagation delays. A machine that you can microcode single step or slow step makes life easier. I did an "improved 8080" a bunch of years ago using 2 and it was fun. I have a dozen or so 2901Cs that were supposedly the fastest of the TTL flavor. Though the ECL parts were much faster. Allison

17 years, 6 months

FW: Open VMS Hobbyists Disc

by rick＠rickmurphy.net

At 09:05 PM 6/19/2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hi > The above disk having arrived (new version 7.3) I managed to install >VMS on both VAXes with out any problem. >In order to install the other items first the disk has to be mounted. >Again no difficulties. I can list the directories and see their >contents. >@SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL invokes the installer, again normal. > >It then asks I'm satisified withthe backup of the system disk (Default >[YES]) >Next it wants the location of the distribution so I say >DKA100:[TCPIP_VAX051] >Finally it needs the product code. So TCPIP051 to that (they specify the >format) > >It then says it cant find the product. > > >Answers please! You can do it entirely from the command line: $ @sys$update:vmsinstal tcpip051 dka100:[tcpip_vax051.kit] The VMS distribution CDs usually have the savesets in the [.kit] subdirectory. If you don't see tcpip051.a in that directory, it's a PCSA install and you'll need to use PRODUCT INSTALL to install it. The release notes should provide pretty explicit instructions. -Rick

17 years, 6 months

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test-drb June 2007